Latest / The Photography & Video Show Podcast / 37: Brooke Shaden on finding strength in fear; James Artaius hands-on with Canon EOS R8 Mark II

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37: Brooke Shaden on finding strength in fear; James Artaius hands-on with Canon EOS R8 Mark II · The Photography & Video Show Podcast

0:10
David McClelland: Hello and welcome to the Photography and Video Show podcast.
0:13
David McClelland: It's me, David McClelland.
0:14
David McClelland: It's October 2026 and coming up on today's show.
0:18
Brooke Shaden: I wake up every day and I make almost exclusively the art that I want.
0:22
Brooke Shaden: I'm so lucky to do that.
0:23
Brooke Shaden: Like I wake up and I say, what's the idea today?
0:26
Brooke Shaden: And I just go do it by myself.
0:28
Brooke Shaden: I have the most fun in the world.
0:29
Brooke Shaden: I love it.
0:30
Brooke Shaden: And then later I say, now how can I sell this?
0:32
Brooke Shaden: You know?
0:33
Brooke Shaden: And so you just have that question in your mind of, well, I made the thing.
0:36
Brooke Shaden: Now how can I sell this so I can keep making more of that?
0:39
David McClelland: Fine art photographer Brooke Shaden joins me to talk about confronting her worst fears and finding light in darkness.
0:46
David McClelland: We're also looking ahead to the in-person photography and video show at the Xcel in London from March the 13th to the 16th, 2027.
0:57
David McClelland: Your chance to test and to buy the latest kit, to learn and be inspired by the best still and moving image creators in the world.
1:05
David McClelland: Tickets are on sale any moment now at photography show.com.
1:09
David McClelland: We genuinely love bringing you camera news and intimate insights from the world's leading photographers and filmmakers and creators here on the podcast.
1:19
David McClelland: And remember now, you can watch as well as listen YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
1:25
David McClelland: But please, please, please, please do tell us if there's anything more that you would like from us.
1:32
David McClelland: Maybe some conversations that we're not having or kit and brands that maybe we're not focusing on.
1:38
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1:42
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1:46
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1:49
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1:55
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1:58
David McClelland: We would love to hear from you.
2:00
David McClelland: Right, time to focus on this month's news headlines.
2:05
David McClelland: Here are your camera news headlines for October 2026.
2:13
David McClelland: Canon has gone back to the 80s with the new EOS R8 Mark II, borrowing an Angular aesthetic from some classic film cameras.
2:22
David McClelland: More importantly, the entry-level full frame now features in-body image stabilization and an autofocus joystick control, two things asked for by owners of the original R8.
2:32
David McClelland: Around £1,750, body only, shipping late October.
2:37
David McClelland: Meanwhile, Nikon has taken something away instead.
2:41
David McClelland: The Z52C is essentially the Z52 without the viewfinder, and that makes it smaller, lighter, and cheaper at £1,349.
2:51
David McClelland: It's also the first Nikon with Fish AF.
2:54
David McClelland: That's right.
2:55
David McClelland: Autofocus for fish.
2:58
David McClelland: First reported earlier this year, Adobe's now completed its acquisition of AI upscaling specialist Topaz Labs.
3:05
David McClelland: Expect more AI Smarts in your Creative Cloud workflows soon.
3:10
David McClelland: That said, Lightroom now has a new beta tool called Prompt to Edit.
3:15
David McClelland: Type what you want, and Google's Nano Banana 2 AI will regenerate your entire photo.
3:22
David McClelland: In Lens News, Sigma has released its fastest ever portrait lens, the 85mm F1.2 DGART is, Sigma claims, the smallest and lightest autofocus lens of its kind.
3:34
David McClelland: And it's available now for Sony E and L Mount at £1,299.
3:40
David McClelland: Instant gratification comes in two flavours this month.
3:44
David McClelland: Fujifilm's Instax PAL 2 is a palm-sized digital camera with a top-down screen which prints straight to an Instax printer.
3:52
David McClelland: Polaroid's Mod keeps things analogue with a dial for double exposures and light painting.
3:58
David McClelland: Out in the US right now, with more countries coming soon.
4:02
David McClelland: And finally, UK camera retailer Jessups has a new owner.
4:06
David McClelland: Dragon's Den star Peter Jones has sold the beloved 91-year-old camera chain to AO, the online fridge and washing machine retailer.
4:14
David McClelland: Fingers crossed, the remaining high street stores can stay open.
4:18
David McClelland: And those e-news headlines, you're up to date.
4:37
James Artaius: David, good to see you, and I believe a happy birthday is in order to use.
4:56
David McClelland: Thank you for joining us down an iPhone link from a hotel room somewhere in Europe.
5:02
David McClelland: The obvious question I have to ask is on holiday, what cameras have you got with you?
5:06
James Artaius: So I brought two cameras.
5:08
James Artaius: The first one is the OM System TG7 for obvious reasons.
5:12
James Artaius: I'm here with family, with my little girl who's six months old.
5:15
James Artaius: First time in the swimming pool, so I want to take something that is A, first of all, babyproof, B is waterproof, soundproof, everything else.
5:21
James Artaius: So that's a camera that goes with us everywhere.
5:23
James Artaius: It's a bit of a burner camera, so if our bags get nicked or something, it's not the end of the world.
5:27
James Artaius: Um and the big boy camera is the OM3.
5:30
James Artaius: So that's my kind of pretty much my everyday carry for sort of um business and pleasure.
5:35
James Artaius: Kind of it covers whatever I need, a bit of fun, bit of seriousness.
5:38
James Artaius: So I've got a 12 to 40, which is a 20 to 80, 40 to 80, something like that, regular zoom lens.
5:45
James Artaius: And I've got a 135mm portrait lens for when I want to take pretty pictures of family.
5:49
James Artaius: So always ready for any circumstance.
5:52
David McClelland: You have all the bases covered, and of course, there has been some big OM system news over the last few weeks, but that's not what I want to talk to you about today.
6:01
David McClelland: I want to talk about a camera that, well, you tell me, you have long been predicting a retro-styled camera from our friends at Canon.
6:11
David McClelland: And my question to you is is the EOS R8 Mark II the camera you were expecting?
6:20
James Artaius: No, it's not the camera I was expecting, but it is the camera that was to be expected from Canon, so which is a really awful roundabout way of being quite political.
6:30
James Artaius: So I think the camera that I had in mind, and I think most people had in mind, when we hear the rumors of retro camera, the first thing think for is it what's going to be a silver camera, because all silver cameras are retro cameras.
6:41
James Artaius: And we all thought it's going to be something like a rebirth of the AE1, the sort of classic film camera from back in the day.
6:47
James Artaius: Um, and I do believe, hand on heart, that is a camera that is still coming down the line at some point.
6:52
James Artaius: Canon hasn't said this, this is purely my feeling.
6:55
James Artaius: But the the tone of the conversations I've had in the past and the things they do via email surveys in Asia and things leads me to believe that's still something that might happen.
7:04
James Artaius: What we have in this instance, uh, Canon has been quite explicit.
7:08
James Artaius: This is not a retro camera, it is a heritage-inspired camera.
7:14
James Artaius: So we're playing the synonym game here.
7:16
James Artaius: It is it is it is a camera that, um, and I don't have them here, obviously didn't bring these with me on the holiday, but it's a camera that is really styled after the Canon T80, which was Canon's first um autofocus camera from back in the day.
7:32
James Artaius: Wasn't a particularly a particularly beloved camera, it has to be said.
7:35
James Artaius: Um, but it does have quite a distinct silhouette.
7:39
James Artaius: Um, sort of trying to describe probably better if people just Google what the thing looks like.
7:43
James Artaius: Has a quite a pronounced slash on the bottom of the hand grip, a boxy, angular, quite aggressive, muscular looking thing, really bold silhouette, kind of like an 80s Volvo kind of shape, you know, really sort of touched looking thing.
7:56
James Artaius: So it is a kind of half-way.
7:57
James Artaius: Boxy but good exact there you go.
8:01
James Artaius: I knew that's a reference you would understand and appreciate.
8:04
James Artaius: Yeah, so a boxy but good shape from the past, um, giving a little bit of uh, yeah, a sort of a nod to Canon's heritage.
8:11
James Artaius: And they've chosen the R8 Mark II for that.
8:16
James Artaius: Um, I think because they've decided this is kind of uh an enthusiast, a traveler's camera, an everyday camera, a camera that can do anything.
8:24
James Artaius: Um, as we'll talk about in a moment, it's positioning in the lineup.
8:27
James Artaius: It's a camera that's kind of friendly to all users.
8:29
James Artaius: So this seemed like, I guess, as good as any to do a little bit of rejigging with the um the visual grammar.
8:36
James Artaius: But I think the key takeaway is that while you and I would identify it as somewhat retro or somewhat heritage, if you didn't know that's what went into the design of this camera, it would sit in a lineup with the other ERS R bodies and not look out of place.
8:52
James Artaius: It looks a little bit different, but it's not radically different that you would look at it and go, that's just a bit mad.
8:57
James Artaius: Why have they done that?
8:58
James Artaius: So it's very subtle.
8:59
James Artaius: And that's what I was alluding to with this is what we should have expected from Canon.
9:02
James Artaius: Canon doesn't always go in guns blazing with new aesthetics.
9:06
James Artaius: It takes little soft steps, it does a lot of considered market research and things, it doesn't want to rock the boat too much.
9:11
James Artaius: I would imagine the reception to this camera may influence what happens with the does it or doesn't it exist retro camera?
9:19
James Artaius: So lots of spinning plates, I think, is the answer to your question.
9:24
David McClelland: And depending upon how mealy-mouthed we want to be about kind of heritage-inspired or retro or whatever, I think certainly something that people have commented upon when they've seen the EOS R8 Mark II online, if not in person, though I'm sure it's a similar experience, is how similar it is not to a Heritage Canon camera, but how similar it might look to a current Sony camera.
9:50
David McClelland: I d I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but there's certainly more than a passing likeness to what other camera brands are doing right now.
9:59
James Artaius: Definitely.
10:00
James Artaius: And I must admit, I was so, as somebody who owns a Canon T80, the camera after which the Heritage uh design was inspired, um that was the first thing I saw.
10:08
James Artaius: Oh, this is they've done that.
10:09
James Artaius: They've chosen a very peculiar, quite a niche, a significant, but as kind of an underappreciated camera.
10:15
James Artaius: That's very unusual.
10:16
James Artaius: But of course, everyone who wasn't familiar with this quite niche part of Canon's history sort of went, that looks like a Sony, eh?
10:22
James Artaius: That's only Alpha camera.
10:23
James Artaius: Or, oh, that looks a bit like what Nikon's done to look like Sony.
10:27
James Artaius: So there is certainly, and you can take a number of different things away from that.
10:30
James Artaius: Has Canon tried to emulate Sony's aesthetic?
10:33
James Artaius: Did Sony just emulate the 1980s boxy kind of look with the alpha cameras?
10:37
James Artaius: You know, who's to say, but certainly that's a that's a uh a distinction that has been noticed.
10:42
James Artaius: And yeah, once seen, you can't unsee that.
10:44
James Artaius: It is certainly there.
10:45
James Artaius: But um, yeah, in my heart of hearts, I can kind of see, I can you know, hold the two cameras side by side and go, ah, this one looks like the old one, but certainly it does also look like some of the new ones as well.
10:56
David McClelland: So putting the angularity and whether it is or not retro to one side, what does that actually mean?
11:02
David McClelland: Does it change anything with regards to the comfort, to how easy it is to hold in the hand?
11:08
David McClelland: Because can and say what you like about the designs and whether they've stayed the same for you know uh years and years, maybe longer than they should have done, they are very, very good ergonomically.
11:18
David McClelland: So has this design changed anything with regards to the handling and the usage of the R8 Mark II?
11:25
James Artaius: So it is slightly different from the previous model, from the standard the R8 Mark I.
11:31
James Artaius: Um the R8 had a slightly deeper, beefier grip, and of course it does have the more um soap bar kind of balloon soft edges kind of aesthetic to it.
11:39
James Artaius: Um but certainly the R8 Mark II, it doesn't feel rigid or angular in the hand.
11:44
James Artaius: It feels very, very comfortable.
11:45
James Artaius: Um the grip is a little bit uh shallower, but what is available with this with the R8 Mark II, which I love, and I'm not somebody who puts grips on my cameras ever.
11:54
James Artaius: I abhor grips.
11:55
James Artaius: It's like to me, it's like putting a case on your iPhone, which I have to do because I'm clumsy, but I always think it's a crime that we sheath our beautifully designed iPhones in these things.
12:05
James Artaius: So with cameras, I never put a grip on.
12:07
James Artaius: But with the R8 Mark II, if I were to buy one, I would absolutely buy the optional grip.
12:12
James Artaius: So it adds about a centimetre, half centimetre on the bottom uh plate with a really cleverly designed um sort of battery door.
12:20
James Artaius: Um so one of the things that doesn't have from the R8, it doesn't have a new battery, so it does still have kind of limited um number of shots available.
12:27
James Artaius: But usually when you've got a hand grip, you've got to take the whole thing off and then to get the battery in out here.
12:32
James Artaius: It's got a beautifully designed hinge on the bottom.
12:34
James Artaius: So without taking the grip off, you can just flip that out, take the battery in and out.
12:37
James Artaius: So apart from admiring the design a great deal, which I do, um, the fact it's got the extra grip on the bottom, I actually think it's more comfortable than the R8.
12:45
James Artaius: Um, without the grip, it might be a slightly different story.
12:48
James Artaius: But I personally wouldn't buy the R8 Mark II without the grip.
12:52
James Artaius: So um, yeah, to answer your question, it still feels really comfortable.
12:55
James Artaius: It doesn't feel noticeably different in the hand.
12:58
James Artaius: It feels really good to me.
12:58
James Artaius: As someone who's used Calic cameras for years and years, it feels pretty much at home in the hand.
13:02
David McClelland: And that's that, I think they call that the EG2, and you look at it on its own.
13:06
David McClelland: It like you say, it's it's really, really small, but from the sounds of it, it makes a real difference.
13:12
David McClelland: And having seen other people with uh with this camera in their hands, not only the battery flap, the battery door is quite smart, but how they've made a little groove so that you can open the articulated screen even when you've got this extra grip on there, makes an awful lot of sense.
13:28
David McClelland: What there isn't, though, and what this isn't, it's not a battery grip, and it doesn't give you the grip to hold your camera in portrait mode.
13:36
David McClelland: And I understand at the moment, at least, that isn't available.
13:39
David McClelland: I think the only accessible otherwise that's available is an XLR top handle.
13:44
David McClelland: So that's the that's the grip.
13:46
David McClelland: That's the ergonomics.
13:48
David McClelland: There's a few other things with regards to the design.
13:50
David McClelland: If you look at the top of the camera as well, quite a few things have changed.
13:54
David McClelland: There's a big gap on the left-hand side as you as you look down on the prism, whatever, at the top.
14:00
David McClelland: Big empty gap on the left-hand side, which might come as a bit of a surprise, and then on the back, something that I'm I'm kind of holding up my thumb right now, that's how much I like it.
14:08
David McClelland: There's a little joystick there, which is great, and certainly something that, from an ease of use point of view and an ergonomic point of view, people will love that.
14:18
James Artaius: Yes, so um as much as and alluding to this in terms of like, is this, isn't this a retro camera canon being sometimes a bit cagey in terms of um changing things, um, it certainly listened to customer feedback with regard to the R8.
14:32
James Artaius: So the R8 um was, and it's still a current product, which we might talk about more in a second.
14:36
James Artaius: So the R8 is the kind of the entry-level full-frame model in the range.
14:41
James Artaius: Therefore, you don't expect it to have all the bells and whistles.
14:45
James Artaius: But of course, when you buy a camera, you would like it to have as much as possible.
14:48
James Artaius: So things people were complaining about, oh, it doesn't have a joystick, it doesn't have this, it doesn't have that.
14:52
James Artaius: So Canon has listened to customers and gone, actually, okay, we've got this R8 Mark II.
14:57
James Artaius: Um, let's make it a bit more whizzy bangy.
14:59
James Artaius: It's got the joystick or the multi-function control, whatever they call it.
15:02
James Artaius: The Canon's got its own nomenclature for these things.
15:03
James Artaius: So it's got a joystick on the back.
15:05
James Artaius: Um, what it doesn't have, um, usually on EOS camera or sometimes on EOS cameras, you have like a spinning rear dial.
15:11
James Artaius: Um, if this is a D-pad instead of a rear dial.
15:14
James Artaius: So it doesn't spin around, you've got the directional controls.
15:16
James Artaius: Um, but yes, that makes a heck of a difference.
15:18
James Artaius: It does have the more modern, the more developed autofocus systems.
15:22
James Artaius: So in a lot of situations, you really don't need the joystick because the autofocus will just kind of find faces or find animals or whatever it is.
15:29
James Artaius: But of course, there are always those times when you want to take manual control or the autofocus trip, you need to set it back to where it was.
15:34
James Artaius: So having it there where your thumb is is perfect.
15:37
James Artaius: And as you say, the space on the top left, that's something else can and really listen to people saying, Oh, I wish I could use this camera one-handed.
15:44
James Artaius: And I'm not somebody who ever that's not true.
15:46
James Artaius: I'm not somebody who shoots one-handed.
15:48
James Artaius: I often hold my camera one-handed, but I don't shoot one-handed.
15:50
James Artaius: But it was um actually my friend Emily from Micro 44 Nerds, she called it festival mode, where you maybe you have a beverage in one hand, you put your camera in the other hand, and you'd really like to be able to turn it on with one hand, take a snap of the stage and turn it back off.
16:04
James Artaius: So Cannon has put the power switch exactly like that.
16:07
James Artaius: Cannon's put the power switch onto the um to the top right shoulder of the uh of the camera.
16:11
James Artaius: So you can turn it on and off with one hand, which is admittedly really good for things like street photography, shooting from the hip, like, oh, something's happening.
16:17
James Artaius: Quick, get my camera out.
16:18
James Artaius: So those two things are actually, if you come from the R8, they're pretty massive.
16:24
David McClelland: So that's the outside of the camera, that's some of the interface and the usability and ergonomics.
16:30
David McClelland: What about the inside of the camera?
16:32
David McClelland: Because you look at the headline stats and things that stand out are it's the same screen, it's the same viewfinder, it's even the same sensors, sort of, but this is another area where Canon's been listening to one of the big pieces of feedback or big pieces of criticism about the capabilities of the original uh R8.
16:56
James Artaius: It is, and maybe this is maybe this is the first instance of I was gonna say trickle down economics, trickle-down tech, where you know, sort of um all the top tech features in the flagship gear, and then it gradually trickles down to the lower end stuff.
17:08
James Artaius: And like I said, when you buy an entry-level anything, you probably don't expect it to have the whole suite of features.
17:15
James Artaius: But even though the R8 Mark I is still available, the R8 Mark II does now inherit IBIS in-body image stabilization.
17:23
James Artaius: So it has the same 24.2 megapixel sensor.
17:25
James Artaius: Um, I'm not somebody who minds about that.
17:27
James Artaius: I know some people can be quite sniffy.
17:29
James Artaius: Oh, new camera, old sensor, what's that all about?
17:31
James Artaius: I mean, that sensor is really, really good, really capable, really competent, great image quality.
17:36
James Artaius: There's no reason to replace that.
17:37
James Artaius: But having the image stabilization, for those of you who don't know, that basically means when the camera shakes or you move it around, there's gyros and magnets that keep the sensor stabilized in the middle of the body.
17:47
James Artaius: So, you know, it gives you, um, top of my head, I think it might be 5.5, 6.5, something like a considerable number of stops of compensation for shake.
17:55
James Artaius: And that makes a bigger difference, a bigger deal than the joystick, bigger deal than the power switch beer festival mode.
18:01
James Artaius: Having something that keeps your shot stable in low light or chasing fast-moving subjects, it's an absolute, it's an overused rate.
18:07
James Artaius: It is a real game change if you've never used it before.
18:10
James Artaius: So I think this might be a bit of a watermark moment, entry-level proposition with in-body image stabilization, not something Canon does usually want to do.
18:19
James Artaius: So the none of the APSC entry-level bodies have uh IBIS.
18:22
James Artaius: This one does.
18:23
James Artaius: So maybe this is a bit of a moment where that will be the new standard.
18:27
James Artaius: I don't want to promise that to anybody, but it it certainly is noticeable to me that in the entry-level body now it's a thing.
18:34
David McClelland: And then in terms of positioning this in the overall Canon range, uh, this is the second mark, obviously, the EOS uh R8 Mark II.
18:44
David McClelland: The Mark I is staying in in Canon's Canon, uh, I suppose you could say, um, but one would expect the price to be a little bit more flexible with that original camera as a result of it staying there.
18:59
James Artaius: Yeah, I think so.
19:00
James Artaius: As has been noted, um, even though this is the entry-level camera, it does carry a higher or you know, it carries a contemporary price tag.
19:07
James Artaius: You know, a camera that's out in 2026 can't have the same price as a camera that was released some years ago.
19:12
James Artaius: That's just, you know, we all know the state of the world.
19:14
James Artaius: Um, so the Canon R8 Mark II is going to stay about the price it is.
19:18
James Artaius: I would be astonished if there weren't some amazing deals on the original R8.
19:22
James Artaius: You know, we've got Black Friday coming up, Amazon has its deals all the time, Canon does some really great aggressive catchback offers as well.
19:29
James Artaius: Um, so the R8 stays in the lineup, which is very much a Sony move.
19:33
James Artaius: We're talking about Canon maybe taking you know some inspiration from Sony.
19:36
James Artaius: That's really a Sony thing to do, is to keep um legacy models in the lineup and giving customers more choice.
19:41
James Artaius: I mean, I even said that when I went to Canon.
19:43
James Artaius: I said, I do hate to use the S-word in your hallowed halls, but this is a really Sony thing to do, and you deserve kudovs for it.
19:49
James Artaius: I think it's also worth mentioning that the RP is still on sale.
19:53
James Artaius: It's not as, you know, it's not as widespread, and I think it might be on its way out, but the RP is still available in a lot of places.
20:00
James Artaius: So that is a more junior uh or more certainly into in terms of price point, that could be an even more affordable model yet.
20:06
James Artaius: So um, there's certainly a lot of choice in Canon's range right now.
20:10
James Artaius: Whether it's gonna be the case in 12 months, who can say?
20:12
James Artaius: But I think we've gone from having what started with the EOS R system when it first launched.
20:17
James Artaius: I mean, you remember this well, David.
20:18
James Artaius: There was, you know, sort of a fairly a Canon 5D equivalent body that was you know priced as it would be, with a lot of L series glass priced as they would be, and it felt like a really sort of high-end uh expensive system.
20:31
James Artaius: And now we've got something that feels much more everyman, much more you know, attainable for most people, and you know, the ELSR system kind of feels as uh as welcoming as it ever has done.
20:41
David McClelland: Almost exactly eight years on from the launch of the ELSR system at Photokina, RIP Photokina.
20:48
David McClelland: Uh so I'm seeing around about $17.50 body only for the R8 Mark II at the moment.
20:55
David McClelland: Uh the R8 Mark I, I'm seeing prices all over the place, and as James says, of course, take a look at some of the special deals that will be uh making their way across the internet and onto the pages of digitalcameraworld.com over the next few weeks.
21:09
David McClelland: There are certainly some bargains out there to be had, I would imagine.
21:12
David McClelland: James, I've just got one little question, and I don't know if you picked up on this or not, but at the same time as I got the press release for the R8 Mark II, I got another press release from Canon as well, talking about the launch of something called Dual Pixel 3D, a simple 3D image generation technology that takes advantage of Canon's dual pixel CMOS AF technology as seen in the R8 Mark II.
21:42
David McClelland: I don't know if you picked up on this or not, or whether you've had any reflections on what this might actually enable.
21:49
James Artaius: So I've I've say I've used this.
21:52
James Artaius: I have seen this in person twice now.
21:54
James Artaius: Um I first saw it at CP last year, and then I saw it again.
21:59
James Artaius: I saw kind Of a final version of it at CP this year in Japan in late February.
22:05
James Artaius: It's a remarkable, genuinely remarkable bit of technology.
22:08
James Artaius: So for those who don't know what dual pixel CMOS AF is, basically Canon sensors, each photo site has two receptors.
22:16
James Artaius: And that's used sort of to fine-tune the autofocus.
22:19
James Artaius: It also does other clever things because it's essentially taking the same image from two slightly different positions.
22:25
James Artaius: It's sort of micron different positions, but non-most different positions.
22:28
James Artaius: So if you go into if your camera supports it, you can dive into the menus and play with Canon.
22:33
James Artaius: It's got something called a camera raw editing feature where you can do things like change position of the lighting of your subject.
22:39
James Artaius: That's in like the Canon R5.
22:40
James Artaius: That's not a new thing.
22:41
James Artaius: It's something that has existed for a while.
22:43
James Artaius: I want to say the 5D has even got some of this stuff.
22:45
James Artaius: But anyway, the point being it uses this dual photo site technology to be able to create.
22:50
James Artaius: This isn't the same tech, but it's kind of like time of flight cameras, right?
22:55
James Artaius: It takes almost like a dimensional map because it's getting to information, two different photosites all over the sensor.
23:00
James Artaius: So it almost creates a depth map of your subject.
23:03
James Artaius: So you can create a 180-degree 3D um map of the surface of an image.
23:08
James Artaius: When I first saw the technology, it was using um like a doll, like an action figure against a white background, and you could kind of rotate it and then you'd see it cut off after 180 degrees.
23:18
James Artaius: Wasn't quite perfect.
23:20
James Artaius: Uh the last time I saw it, they were using it to photograph things like um dogs and cats that had a pronounced snout.
23:25
James Artaius: Um, but now they are showing it's really more for things like e-commerce for food photography.
23:31
James Artaius: So they've really narrowed down what they've been sort of proof of concept in this thing for a while.
23:35
James Artaius: And I think now really e-com is where it's going to be, or taking photographs for menus and things, or you know, for your shop on eBay or whatever it might be.
23:42
James Artaius: So, yeah, essentially any Canon camera now that supports this bit of tech, the R8 Mark II, the R5, the R52, the R62, the R63, there's a whole bunch of them.
23:52
James Artaius: Um, can't know them all the top of my head.
23:54
James Artaius: But you know, you don't need any of the um the clever fish-eyed dual lenses that Canon sells.
23:59
James Artaius: You don't need a clever camera.
24:00
James Artaius: You can do it with any Canon camera, any Canon lens that supports the tech.
24:04
James Artaius: Take a picture of anything you want, your bottle of water on your table.
24:06
James Artaius: You can take a picture of your dog if you want to.
24:08
James Artaius: And using a bit of downloadable software, it just interprets that data from the sensor, takes the data from all the different photosites, and you get, yeah, a three-dimensional image.
24:17
James Artaius: You need something to view it on, which can be 3D goggles, it can be a bit of software on your computer and you can drag it around with a mouse.
24:24
James Artaius: But it's a really clever bit of tech that's kind of looking for a home.
24:28
James Artaius: E-com's the most obvious one.
24:29
James Artaius: I think if 3D glasses had taken off the way that you know Hollywood hoped they would, that would be another outlet.
24:35
James Artaius: Um, maybe if Apple Vision Pro and etc.
24:38
James Artaius: etc.
24:38
James Artaius: But yeah, it's I think it's a blummin' clever bit of tech, even if only for the fact that every camera, after a certain point of time, does it without needing any paid extras.
24:48
James Artaius: It's just good on Canon, but just doing cool, clever things.
24:51
David McClelland: Yeah, and Canon in other areas in broadcast as well has been trying to make some things happen, including at sporting events as well, you know, with with virtual cameras.
25:01
David McClelland: I remember at some Rugby World Cup matches a few years ago.
25:04
David McClelland: So to see that technology again, the trickle-down technology as you speak of, making its way into these cameras, entry-level full-frame cameras, for heaven's sake.
25:14
David McClelland: And then, as you say, use cases such as e-commerce, people using good cameras to take pictures of stuff that they're going to be selling in their online marketplaces, whether that's eBay or whether that's a little Shopify site of whatever it is they're selling.
25:27
David McClelland: Really, really exciting stuff.
25:29
David McClelland: Uh, and as for the glasses, well, um, yeah, I don't think we're gonna be wearing Vision Pro headsets anytime soon, but Meta is certainly having another go and some really interesting announcements there over the last two or three weeks.
25:42
David McClelland: It's becoming more and more accessible price-wise and uh ergonomics-wise.
25:48
David McClelland: Uh, we will see.
25:49
David McClelland: That's probably for a different podcast.
25:51
David McClelland: And speaking of for different podcasts, James, I'm gonna let you go.
25:54
David McClelland: I'm gonna let you go back to your pool so you can listen to uh your own podcasts if you so wish.
26:00
David McClelland: And speaking of your own podcast, uh it would be remiss of me not to let you have a plug for a podcast that you are also regularly appearing on at the moment.
26:12
James Artaius: Thank you, David.
26:12
James Artaius: Yes, if anybody wants to hear more of me wittering and getting facts upside up my head completely wrong, please do join us on the Bokerface podcast.
26:19
James Artaius: You can look us up on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, all of those usual sorts of places.
26:23
James Artaius: Um we're on every uh we're we're a bi-weekly show, so every other week there's a new adventure from us.
26:29
James Artaius: So yeah, please join me there.
26:30
James Artaius: And of course, digitalcameraworld.com if you want to hear my nonsense in the written form.
26:34
David McClelland: Other pronunciations of bokey are available, but that is yours and I love it.
26:39
David McClelland: James, it's been terrific to speak to you again.
26:42
David McClelland: Have a brilliant rest of holiday.
26:44
David McClelland: Look forward to seeing you, oh, hopefully in terms for Black Friday.
26:48
David McClelland: In time for Black Friday when you return.
26:50
David McClelland: Bye for now.
26:51
James Artaius: Take care! Thank you, David.
26:53
James Artaius: Thank you.
26:53
James Artaius: Bye-bye.
26:56
David McClelland: Brooke Shaden is a fine art photographer whose dream-like and sometimes nightmare-like work provokes intimate self-reflection.
27:03
David McClelland: Often working solo and almost always her own model, her images explore and confront the fears that have shaped her while offering glimmers of light beyond the darkness.
27:16
Brooke Shaden: It's a very fun thing to try to describe work that has a lot of layers and intentions to it.
27:22
Brooke Shaden: So definitely dark, definitely confronting.
27:25
Brooke Shaden: You can put labels on it that I think a lot of people look for to guide them, like fine art photography, conceptual photography.
27:33
Brooke Shaden: You know, these are things that allow it to be put in different buckets that help people understand it.
27:38
Brooke Shaden: But at the end of the day, the label doesn't matter so much as how it makes people feel.
27:43
Brooke Shaden: And how I want to make people feel is that there's some hope in the dark and that there is a way to confront their fears and their worries and their experiences with a bit of hope, even if it is dark or sad or exhausting or whatever it may be.
28:00
Brooke Shaden: So that's really that's my hope, is that's how people receive it.
28:04
David McClelland: Many people run from fear.
28:06
David McClelland: You grab it by the hand and take the fear for a run.
28:11
David McClelland: Um, is that about coming to terms with the fear for you?
28:15
David McClelland: Is is it about addressing it so it's no longer quite so fearful to you, or is it about something else do you think?
28:22
Brooke Shaden: Absolutely.
28:23
Brooke Shaden: I I grew up so afraid of everything.
28:25
Brooke Shaden: Everything.
28:26
Brooke Shaden: I mean, I would lay in bed at night as a 10-year-old and think, okay, well, my mom says there's no such thing as ghosts, but what if she's wrong?
28:35
Brooke Shaden: And if I think there's no such thing as ghosts and they can hear me, then are they gonna attack me because I'm thinking that they don't exist?
28:42
Brooke Shaden: And so, like, my imagination is a wild place.
28:45
Brooke Shaden: I've always been afraid of everything from a burglar breaking in to uh, you know, losing somebody to uh getting ill, all of these things.
28:54
Brooke Shaden: And as I moved through my life, I realized that it was really holding me back from a lot of things that, you know, it was holding me back from um exploring my life fully and having full experiences.
29:06
Brooke Shaden: And when I started photography, and really before that, I was I was in film school.
29:11
Brooke Shaden: And in that process, I realized, oh, if I can bring these things that scare me into my art, then I have full control over them.
29:21
Brooke Shaden: I can tell the story how I want to tell it, I can explore it as dark or as light as I would like to.
29:27
Brooke Shaden: And it's really helped me come to terms with this idea that darkness doesn't have to have a hold on us.
29:33
Brooke Shaden: We can have a hold on it at the same time.
29:35
Brooke Shaden: And that's been really monumental for me for moving forward, moving past things.
29:39
Brooke Shaden: And I don't know if I've ever really moved past anything.
29:42
Brooke Shaden: I would say I still have a lot of fear in me, but it helps to know that that fear can be transmuted into something positive, even if it's just I've made something because of it, and now this thing exists where it didn't before.
29:56
Brooke Shaden: That to me is really beautiful.
29:58
David McClelland: Has the art itself been a therapy for you as much as what it does for other people?
30:02
David McClelland: Has it been a therapy for you?
30:04
Brooke Shaden: It has been therapeutic.
30:07
Brooke Shaden: And there are times where I'm still so scared of something that you think, has this all been for nothing?
30:14
Brooke Shaden: Like, have I been making this art and trying to overcome this?
30:17
Brooke Shaden: And now I here I am and I'm still terrified and it's done nothing.
30:20
Brooke Shaden: But then you realize that it's not about never having the fear, it's about having it be manageable more often than not.
30:28
Brooke Shaden: And for me, fear was unmanageable until I got a hold on it.
30:33
Brooke Shaden: So it's been absolutely therapeutic.
30:35
Brooke Shaden: And I think something that's equally therapeutic that's a kind of an odd thing to talk about is that I've realized by expressing my fears that everybody has the same fears.
30:47
Brooke Shaden: I mean, I'm not saying everybody has a fear of ghosts, for example, but you know, everybody has the same underlying worries about their life, that they're not going to succeed, that they won't be able to support their family, that their loved ones will die or leave them.
30:59
Brooke Shaden: You know, we all have these same exact fears.
31:02
Brooke Shaden: And part of the healing process is making art about it and conversing with other people about how this fear has touched them, and then allowing their perspective to heal me as well.
31:14
Brooke Shaden: You know, it's not just the making of the art, it's especially the releasing of the art.
31:19
David McClelland: Yeah.
31:19
David McClelland: And it's that it's it's the artist, that understanding of expression of communion over the human exp the human condition, I guess as we say.
31:28
David McClelland: Let's let's confront some fears right now then.
31:31
David McClelland: And are are there any particular fears that have manifested themselves in your work?
31:36
David McClelland: I can think of images where you've been drowning.
31:39
David McClelland: I can think of images where it's a relationship with another person.
31:43
David McClelland: I can think of uh another really, really striking images and mentioned parenthood a moment ago with with fruits uh or not blood, for example.
31:54
David McClelland: What are the particular fears that have manifested themselves and keep on manifesting themselves in your work, Brooke?
32:01
Brooke Shaden: You know, it's I have two answers to this, and one is very topical, right?
32:06
Brooke Shaden: One is that sometimes I like to just put horror elements in my work because I suffer from night terrors chronically.
32:14
Brooke Shaden: And so a lot of nights, you know, I wake up, I'm, I'm, I think I've seen something that's not really there.
32:20
Brooke Shaden: I scream, I run, I, you know, panic.
32:22
Brooke Shaden: And sometimes this happens five times a night, you know, it's really disruptive.
32:26
Brooke Shaden: And so sometimes I make work that's really topically about fear, you know, where it's like, oh, I had this night terror that there was a massive spider descending on my face.
32:35
Brooke Shaden: And so let's make something about that.
32:37
Brooke Shaden: And those are fun.
32:39
Brooke Shaden: Those are the pieces that are therapeutic in the moment where it's like, let's have fun with this thing that scared me because that was silly and ridiculous, and I'm just gonna take control over it.
32:48
Brooke Shaden: And then there are the images that are not topical and that you really have to dig for to understand what the core meaning is.
32:56
Brooke Shaden: And these are images like I have a picture of myself on a bed where I'm looking, the the camera's looking down at me laying there, and there's a big hole in the mattress next to me.
33:07
Brooke Shaden: And this is, you know, about losing somebody, about waking up and realizing that person isn't there anymore beside you where they used to be.
33:14
Brooke Shaden: And the image that you mentioned of the fruit, um, I have this image where, you know, it's a self-portrait, my body's very pale, I have uh raspberries smeared down my thighs, and this being about the loss of a child.
33:28
Brooke Shaden: And there are, you know, certain images that I think continuously point to what my real current fears are, not the topical ones that, you know, haunt my nightmares, but the things that I wake up in the morning thinking about and I go to bed thinking about, which is losing somebody, um not being able to hold on to the life that we currently have.
33:52
Brooke Shaden: You know, I think that as humans, we're extremely invested in the current moment in our lives and trying to imagine beyond that and that, oh, in 10 years, I might have an entirely different set of people in my life.
34:06
Brooke Shaden: I might live in a different place.
34:07
Brooke Shaden: That's terrifying to most of us to think about that.
34:10
Brooke Shaden: And that's I think what haunts me is what if my life doesn't look like this in the future?
34:16
Brooke Shaden: How like is that okay?
34:18
Brooke Shaden: And so I I like to make art about that.
34:21
David McClelland: Change is a pretty universal fear, and we'll we'll come on to change, I hope, later on, Brooke.
34:28
David McClelland: The other thing that makes this work feel so immediate is that you know you are exploring your own fears.
34:34
David McClelland: You also appear in so many of your images as well.
34:39
David McClelland: Is that a deliberate thing?
34:42
David McClelland: Is that a practical thing?
34:43
David McClelland: How do you uh how do you bring yourself into these images yet still having the outside in eye?
34:51
David McClelland: Or is that really not the point?
34:53
Brooke Shaden: Yeah, no, it's an everything thing.
34:55
Brooke Shaden: I mean, every reason why you would take a self-portrait factors into why I do it.
34:59
Brooke Shaden: It started out as crippling social anxiety.
35:03
Brooke Shaden: Like I could not imagine asking somebody to model for me and having that pressure of, well, what if I do something stupid in the photo shoot, or what if I I forget to set my camera back to autofocus and everything's out of focus, which I've done so many times.
35:17
Brooke Shaden: And, you know, what if they expect something from me?
35:20
Brooke Shaden: And then just conversing with people.
35:22
Brooke Shaden: I mean, just the thought of like, well, I'm gonna have to make small talk with this person.
35:26
Brooke Shaden: How am I gonna do that?
35:27
Brooke Shaden: And so it was really out of a fear in the beginning of I don't want to talk to people, I don't want to be beholden to anybody, which is exactly why I did not pursue a career in filmmaking, because I was so afraid of being on set with a lot of people.
35:43
Brooke Shaden: It was just really upsetting to me.
35:45
Brooke Shaden: So I said, none of that.
35:47
Brooke Shaden: I can use myself.
35:48
Brooke Shaden: And then by making that decision, you then realize, oh, well, there are a lot of other considerations when you take a self-portrait, like uh the technical aspects of it, the the fact that you get to make all the choices, and this isn't a collaboration with anybody else.
36:03
Brooke Shaden: And these are pros and cons.
36:05
Brooke Shaden: You know, there are definitely times where I'm out there in the middle of a the forest and there's two feet of snow on the ground, and I'm completely alone trying to lug all my equipment by myself, and I'm just there like, oh my gosh, if I just had a model, this would be so much easier.
36:19
Brooke Shaden: Like just somebody else to do this with me.
36:21
Brooke Shaden: And but that's also, I think, the crux of why it's so beautiful to me, because I get to have these experiences often in nature, if not, then just in this sort of shroud of silence where there isn't the chatter of trying to make small talk.
36:39
Brooke Shaden: There isn't this pressure to perform for anybody but myself.
36:43
Brooke Shaden: And I am not a perfectionist.
36:44
Brooke Shaden: So, you know, when I look at those images of myself, I don't look at them and say, oh wow, I look so bad there.
36:51
Brooke Shaden: That sucks.
36:51
Brooke Shaden: Or, oh, I I wish I had done that better.
36:54
Brooke Shaden: I mean, I take like two, maybe five pictures per photo shoot, and I'm like, oh, let's call it done.
36:59
Brooke Shaden: Like I feel good about that.
37:01
Brooke Shaden: So, you know, it's like it's been really freeing to not have that external pressure.
37:06
David McClelland: And yet, I mean, you describe imperfection as being absolutely fine, yet the output, your your work looks so detailed, and obviously fine art photographer is is a label that you're associated with so much.
37:20
David McClelland: It's not just photography that plays a part in there, but that's also something I want to touch on in a moment as well.
37:25
David McClelland: Um, yet that that imperfection may be a surprise to some people, and the other thing that I think might be a surprise to some people is you talk about the crippling social anxiety.
37:35
David McClelland: Uh yet you speak in front of hundreds, thousands of people, you in every engagement that I've had with you, this is well, this is the second time that we've chatted now, um, you you present a very different energy to that that you describe.
37:54
David McClelland: How do you talk about that gap?
37:55
David McClelland: Is that is it masking?
37:56
David McClelland: Again, I don't want to get too deep into the psychology and all the rest of that, but I I think it's important how you describe the the fears that you have, but then also the fact that you now are so out there in another part of your life, another part of your brain.
38:12
David McClelland: I don't know.
38:13
Brooke Shaden: Well, you know, it's actually really funny because the social anxiety is still there uh all the time.
38:19
Brooke Shaden: Okay.
38:19
Brooke Shaden: I mean, I regularly will be at an event, speaking at an event, and I am the most comfortable person on stage.
38:26
Brooke Shaden: Like I love it.
38:27
Brooke Shaden: And then I get off stage and maybe there's uh a dinner that I have to go to, you know, for a brand or the, you know, whoever it is.
38:34
Brooke Shaden: And I have regularly had such severe panic attacks doing that that I have to leave and I can't even attend the event because just it's it's a different kind of communication.
38:45
Brooke Shaden: If I am on stage, then I'm in control.
38:48
Brooke Shaden: I know that I'm meant to be there, that if there's somebody in the room, it's because they're meant to be watching me.
38:52
Brooke Shaden: And that's a completely different feeling than walking into a party where nobody necessarily knows you, where you have to sort of go introduce yourself on a personal private level.
39:03
Brooke Shaden: And I'm not comfortable with that.
39:05
Brooke Shaden: I dislike it very much.
39:06
Brooke Shaden: And I'm I'm either not there because I can't cope, or I'm there and asking the weirdest questions of people because I'm like, I'm not wired for small talk.
39:16
Brooke Shaden: So I'm in there being like, hi, I'm broke.
39:17
Brooke Shaden: What's your greatest passion in life?
39:19
Brooke Shaden: You know, and they're like, oh, that's a strange thing to say.
39:22
Brooke Shaden: And so, you know, it's uh it for me, it's something that hasn't improved all that much, although it has improved.
39:28
Brooke Shaden: But I in eighth grade was, you know, we had to do a public speaking class, and I was the only one to fail it, you know, and I couldn't do it.
39:38
Brooke Shaden: I was just mortified of having to get up there and talk about something in front of people.
39:43
Brooke Shaden: I went to a college where there was no public speaking requirement just because I was mortified at having to do that again.
39:50
Brooke Shaden: And then a few years after I graduated, it was just like a switch flipped in me.
39:56
Brooke Shaden: And I thought, oh, actually, if I'm talking about what I love, then this completely changes everything.
40:02
Brooke Shaden: And I realized by doing it more and more that the more I spoke from my heart, I said whatever was on the tip of my tongue, the better it was received by audiences.
40:12
Brooke Shaden: And that gave me the courage to get up there and do whatever I wanted on stage and say, well, this is me.
40:18
Brooke Shaden: And if they don't like it, then that's totally fine.
40:20
Brooke Shaden: I'm okay with that.
40:21
Brooke Shaden: I'm gonna get off stage and not think about all those people scowling at me in the audience.
40:25
Brooke Shaden: And if they like it, then I've probably made a positive impact on someone today, and that makes it worth it.
40:30
David McClelland: I'm nodding along violently because I can relate to all of that.
40:33
David McClelland: Uh, and I think you know, but this is the point of why you do a lot of what you do, because we're going, yeah, actually, I feel that too.
40:41
David McClelland: And I think it's a danger for people to assume that it's because you appear in videos, you do education, you stand on stage that in one-to-one social situations, the the dinners after an event or so on, you're going to be the same person, but it is a fundamentally different context, a fundamentally different mode of communication.
40:59
David McClelland: And yeah, I agree that I I can find those things deeply, deeply uncomfortable at times.
41:06
David McClelland: So good for you for understanding that.
41:09
David McClelland: And yeah, we all find strategies to cope, don't we?
41:12
Brooke Shaden: Well, that has been the thing, isn't it?
41:13
Brooke Shaden: It's it's about understanding it.
41:15
Brooke Shaden: And I think as people get older, you tend to realize that it's not worth trying to change certain parts of you, and it's okay to just say, that's not for me, and I'm not gonna do that.
41:26
Brooke Shaden: And I'm not saying to the degree that you don't take opportunities, but you know, for me at this point, it's like, do I need to go to that dinner?
41:34
Brooke Shaden: Not really.
41:34
Brooke Shaden: Like that's not gonna that's not gonna impact my life that much, and it's going to give me so much peace to do my job better the next day, you know, to perform better when I need to.
41:44
David McClelland: Let's come back to your work for for a moment.
41:46
David McClelland: When did it all begin for you, as in the trajectory that you've been on for the last uh what we were saying before we hit record it?
41:54
David McClelland: 17, 18 or so years now.
41:56
David McClelland: Were there any milestones there?
41:59
David McClelland: And I want to look at this through two uh through two lenses, I suppose, one of which is a milestone for you, a piece of work where you go, oh, actually, yeah, I found my voice, my thing, or whatever it is, this is something that I can cling to and use to slingshot me in a new direction.
42:18
David McClelland: And was there a milestone for other people regarding your work and they go, Oh, Brooke, Brooke Shaden, we need to, we need to take note of this person.
42:28
Brooke Shaden: Yeah, and I love that you asked it like that because I have had a lot of personal milestones.
42:36
Brooke Shaden: And the reason is that however my brain is wired, I celebrate everything.
42:42
Brooke Shaden: So, like if I go out and do a photo shoot today, I don't care if I ever share it.
42:46
Brooke Shaden: Like, I'm so excited about that.
42:48
Brooke Shaden: And it's just like I get this feeling of like when you, I don't know, let's say you get an email and somebody says, You've succeeded at this thing you wanted.
42:56
Brooke Shaden: Like, here's a prize, here's a promotion, whatever it is.
42:59
Brooke Shaden: I feel like I get that same jolt of excitement from just making the thing.
43:04
Brooke Shaden: And so every like I look back at all these iterations of my work and things I've put out there.
43:10
Brooke Shaden: And it's hard to say, oh, there's that one thing or these two things that really changed something for me.
43:16
Brooke Shaden: Because I like I look back at my first image that I ever made, which I posted on Flickr in, you know, December 2008.
43:23
Brooke Shaden: And that was like, I mean, I couldn't have been more excited.
43:27
Brooke Shaden: And nobody knew what it was.
43:29
David McClelland: This was you on the bed handing over a ball of light, I think.
43:33
David McClelland: Right?
43:33
Brooke Shaden: Exactly.
43:34
Brooke Shaden: That's good memory.
43:35
Brooke Shaden: And so, yeah, so it's um, you know, I I released that and I I put it out there on a social media website, thinking, well, nobody's gonna see it, but I've done it.
43:45
Brooke Shaden: And like it was like I had such a celebration about that.
43:48
Brooke Shaden: And and I do this for everything.
43:50
Brooke Shaden: Like I'm a really annoying person in this regard.
43:53
Brooke Shaden: Like I celebrate everything.
43:54
Brooke Shaden: I'm like, oh, I did this thing.
43:56
Brooke Shaden: Let's go have dinner, let's go do this.
43:57
Brooke Shaden: And so, um, so for me, that's it's It's interesting to answer this question because of course you have images that you think, oh, that pushed me um aesthetically, that pushed me technically.
44:08
Brooke Shaden: There are certain images that I can think back to where I think that was a turning point.
44:12
Brooke Shaden: But but really all of it is exciting to me.
44:16
Brooke Shaden: And and but the work that has been, you know, there are definitely milestone images, I think, that other people latched onto, some of which surprised me and some of which didn't.
44:26
Brooke Shaden: The very first image that I feel like I ever really like that was the thing that started to launch me into a new phase of my career was this image that I actually have hanging in my living room of myself standing in water with an upside-down umbrella on my head.
44:43
Brooke Shaden: And it's, I made that image actually for a YouTube show that was happening at the time called Framed.
44:51
Brooke Shaden: And they had said, okay, we're gonna meet at the beach at on this day at this time, and you have to make something for the camera.
44:57
Brooke Shaden: And I was like, oh gosh, this is like not when I would normally shoot.
45:00
Brooke Shaden: You know, the sun was in and out, and I was very, like, uh very nervous about it.
45:04
Brooke Shaden: And I made this image and I liked it, but I didn't think, oh, this is the image of my career.
45:10
Brooke Shaden: You know, I just thought, oh, well, I'm trying to perform under pressure.
45:13
Brooke Shaden: Let's see how this goes.
45:14
Brooke Shaden: And that image ended up being selected for awards, being in museums.
45:19
Brooke Shaden: Um, you know, just like it became this thing that people associated with my work.
45:24
Brooke Shaden: And that to me was a huge surprise.
45:26
Brooke Shaden: I still look back at it and I'm like, why?
45:29
Brooke Shaden: Like, I don't know.
45:30
Brooke Shaden: I don't have any guesses as to why.
45:33
Brooke Shaden: But then there are images like the one we've already spoken about with the fruit on my legs and on the table.
45:38
Brooke Shaden: And that one wasn't surprising that it became very indicative of my work now.
45:44
Brooke Shaden: It was the type of image that I knew when I made it that this was the best possible way for me to describe what I wanted to say.
45:55
Brooke Shaden: And so when people started to respond to that, um, I wasn't surprised because I felt it so deeply.
46:02
Brooke Shaden: But then, of course, you have tons of images that you feel deeply and nobody else does.
46:06
Brooke Shaden: So, in some ways, it's unpredictable.
46:08
Brooke Shaden: I think it's all just a load of crap, really.
46:12
Brooke Shaden: I mean, the way that people receive it, the way that I receive it, it's like whatever, however anybody wants to receive it is great, you know?
46:20
Brooke Shaden: And I love everything that I do.
46:22
Brooke Shaden: Even when I look back and cringe, it's still really beautiful to me.
46:26
David McClelland: Photography, of course, fine art photography, however you want to define that filmmaking you've mentioned as well, but uh other media too, and you've you've no fear of mixing media and paint has certainly featured in your work in the past.
46:42
David McClelland: What are the different textures that that that you enjoy using and when?
46:46
David McClelland: Do different media fit different moods or different themes or different things that you try to achieve?
46:52
David McClelland: Because there is a very much a kind of multi-layer feel to a lot of your work.
46:58
David McClelland: As simple as it is, there are lots of layers to it.
47:02
Brooke Shaden: Yeah, that's true.
47:03
Brooke Shaden: And texture has always from day one been incredibly important to me visually in my work.
47:10
Brooke Shaden: I actually went into photography not liking photography.
47:14
Brooke Shaden: So this was a very important lens to see the image with because I came into it saying, well, I don't actually like looking at photographs all that much.
47:23
Brooke Shaden: And that's changed.
47:24
Brooke Shaden: I mean, I've grown a deep appreciation for the medium, but I went into it saying it's not my favorite art form.
47:30
Brooke Shaden: Um, I want to make my images look like paintings rather than photographs.
47:35
Brooke Shaden: And so texture was immediately relevant to my work, trying to create enough texture that you didn't see the photograph first, you know, instead of seeing a photograph and then noticing the different textures in it.
47:48
Brooke Shaden: And then that transformed into paint.
47:50
Brooke Shaden: And I created a series that I released in 2022 called Somsara, which is a really dark body of work.
47:56
Brooke Shaden: It's it's literally dark, uh, all black backgrounds, um, a lot of nude figures, uh, a lot of very confronting imagery, but heavily textured.
48:07
Brooke Shaden: And the goal here was to create a mixed media work where the texture became part of the character.
48:13
Brooke Shaden: And so I would create these different uh images where I layered in paint, but also sand and dirt from my backyard and from the forest out here.
48:24
Brooke Shaden: Um, sometimes human hair if it was relevant to the image, feathers, things like that that I found in my environment.
48:31
Brooke Shaden: And this became sort of a way of muddying up the images to create something really uh textured and tactile, so that it felt like you could reach out and touch it rather than it being a flat, two-dimensional thing.
48:46
David McClelland: It strikes me that with all of those different textures and in pasto, a paint term, you know, the kind of building up those layers and the feathers and the sand, that stuff works best when you're face to face with the image that you've made.
48:59
David McClelland: And I know that in some contexts, some galleries, your work gets blown up to enormous sizes.
49:04
David McClelland: For example, we live our lives online these days, and the majority of times that I've seen, all of the times that I've seen your images, frankly, have been through, you know, through a screen, whether it's my phone or whether it's my computer here.
49:15
David McClelland: Does that does that medium in which people consume your images, has that changed how you create them?
49:22
David McClelland: Is it is it is it different knowing that the majority of people are going to be seeing your images online rather than in person?
49:32
Brooke Shaden: Yes, massively.
49:33
Brooke Shaden: And I I oh I love this question because I think we're not thinking about it enough.
49:38
Brooke Shaden: And I think a lot of artists would probably have a knee-jerk reaction to say, no, no, like I'm making whatever I want when I want it.
49:45
Brooke Shaden: It's not, I'm not impacted by online, in person.
49:48
Brooke Shaden: But I actually think that's probably not true subconsciously for a lot of people.
49:52
Brooke Shaden: I think that we're consuming media online.
49:54
Brooke Shaden: We subconsciously know what works, you know, a small thumbnail, high contrast, um, simple, interesting subject.
50:03
Brooke Shaden: Like we know that these things work subconsciously, and I think that worms its way into the work a lot of the times.
50:08
Brooke Shaden: I'm not saying for everybody, but certainly I've thought about it.
50:11
Brooke Shaden: And with that particular series that we were discussing with Samsara, having the paint and dirt and sand and all of that, I made that series knowing absolutely that it was going to be a printed series that would go first to a gallery and then to a museum.
50:26
Brooke Shaden: So I knew already that this would be something that we'd interface with in person, and that changed how I decided to make it.
50:33
Brooke Shaden: And I think it's also extends beyond just the screen versus in person to the idea of where is it landing ultimately?
50:43
Brooke Shaden: Like, do I want galleries to be interested in this?
50:46
Brooke Shaden: Do I want museums to collect this?
50:47
Brooke Shaden: And if so, maybe it behooves me to put a physical element into it because that might entice them more.
50:54
Brooke Shaden: And so I think, you know, it's this is a whole other hour-long conversation, but I do think that there's this term of sellout gets thrown around a lot of, well, you shouldn't make something just because you think a museum will like it, right?
51:08
Brooke Shaden: Because then you're selling out to try to get your work advanced somehow.
51:12
Brooke Shaden: And I think that's crazy.
51:13
Brooke Shaden: I mean, I think that's a crazy way to think of it.
51:15
Brooke Shaden: Like art is a business at the end of the day, as well as well as everything else, if you want it to be.
51:20
Brooke Shaden: There are two layers to that, right?
51:22
Brooke Shaden: There's the personal and there's the if you want to make money from it, then you know, you do.
51:26
Brooke Shaden: And so I have taken a lot of advice from industry professionals through portfolio reviews and whatnot.
51:34
Brooke Shaden: And I've really internalized what they're saying.
51:36
Brooke Shaden: So for example, in 2015, I went to my first portfolio review.
51:41
Brooke Shaden: And what they said was, it's your work is too digital.
51:44
Brooke Shaden: Like there's nothing hand-done about it.
51:46
Brooke Shaden: And we want there to be something physical in your work.
51:50
Brooke Shaden: And I was really, you know, I left that meeting saying, well, you like forget them.
51:54
Brooke Shaden: I what do they know?
51:56
Brooke Shaden: You know, and and I still maintain that reaction to a degree because obviously art is subjective and they can't say that as a blanket statement.
52:04
Brooke Shaden: But it made me think about how I've never pursued the physicality of art before.
52:10
Brooke Shaden: It's always been take the picture, put it in the computer, edit it digitally.
52:14
Brooke Shaden: And so from there, I created a body of work called um Fourth Wall.
52:18
Brooke Shaden: And this was a series that I did where I built an entire room inside of a studio, and I uh physically decorated that room with painstaking hours to create these very physical sets that I could simply photograph and not photoshop them.
52:34
Brooke Shaden: And that is to date my most awarded series.
52:38
Brooke Shaden: And so it's interesting how sometimes, you know, you it's hard to predict where the trends are, and I don't want to follow a trend.
52:46
Brooke Shaden: But when somebody says something to me that's a critique that really riles me up in a deep way, I know that I should probably understand why I resist that so much.
52:57
Brooke Shaden: And in that case, it was, well, they're wrong.
53:00
Brooke Shaden: I of course my art is good and they don't know what they're talking about.
53:02
Brooke Shaden: And then I thought, well, actually, I'm just very uncomfortable building something for my work, like that that doesn't feel good to me.
53:09
Brooke Shaden: And so I did it.
53:10
Brooke Shaden: And it felt amazing to break through that barrier and do it.
53:13
Brooke Shaden: Now, did I stick with it?
53:15
Brooke Shaden: No.
53:15
Brooke Shaden: You know, I'm still very much a digital artist at the end of the day.
53:19
Brooke Shaden: But um, but sometimes it's nice to sort of take into account where are the gaps in what your practice is versus what it could be, and is it worth trying?
53:28
David McClelland: Show business.
53:29
David McClelland: I know that this isn't show business that that we're doing here, but as I've often reflected, it's two very different words.
53:35
David McClelland: You know, we we lump them together into one, but there is there is art.
53:39
David McClelland: I I guess art business is uh is the closest thing to it.
53:42
David McClelland: Business is the longer word, and you can't drop it all together, otherwise, as good as your intentions, as as much as you want to communicate, as much as you want to say, if you can't support yourself in doing that, then you're not gonna be able to do that.
53:56
David McClelland: So you've got to look at the business side as well.
53:59
Brooke Shaden: Yeah, and and still maintain your integrity.
54:01
Brooke Shaden: You know, I think that's what people tend to think you lose in the process of doing that, but I don't actually think that's true if you're doing it right.
54:08
Brooke Shaden: You know, I wake up every day and I make almost exclusively the art that I want.
54:13
Brooke Shaden: I'm so lucky to do that.
54:14
Brooke Shaden: Like I wake up and I say, What's the idea today?
54:17
Brooke Shaden: And I just go do it by myself.
54:19
Brooke Shaden: I have the most fun in the world, I love it.
54:21
Brooke Shaden: And then later I say, now how can I sell this?
54:24
Brooke Shaden: You know, and so you just have that question in your mind of, well, I've made the thing.
54:28
Brooke Shaden: Now how can I sell this so I can keep making more of that?
54:31
Brooke Shaden: You know?
54:31
David McClelland: Yeah.
54:32
David McClelland: It's it's the inspiration that comes first rather than the business plan, which is a love which is a lovely existence.
54:39
David McClelland: Uh a lovely existence.
54:40
David McClelland: Um, you speak about yourself as a as a digital artist, and I just want to kick the tires of that a little bit.
54:45
David McClelland: And we've spoken about multimedia, multiple mediums as well.
54:49
David McClelland: And even though it's not necessarily a mode, I I wonder where your thoughts are around the creative opportunities, possibilities that generative AI presents.
55:01
David McClelland: Because I've spoken with photographers whose style of work, shall we say, is now being likened to AI imagery.
55:09
David McClelland: Their work isn't AI generated, but their style, their composition, the textures, a lot of the things that we've discussed already, they give an aesthetic that can give the impression that it's been AI generated.
55:21
David McClelland: Yeah, I've spoken with other artists, photographers, promptographers, who have set out to create and to provoke, I guess, with their AI-generated images.
55:33
David McClelland: So where do you sit?
55:36
Brooke Shaden: As in all things, I try to live and let live, you know, like if an artist feels that that's their path forward to generate their imagery, I'm not gonna go on a crusade to stop them from doing that.
55:49
Brooke Shaden: I have no interest in it personally.
55:51
Brooke Shaden: And it comes down to a couple of things.
55:53
Brooke Shaden: I mean, it comes down to do I care about the environmental impact?
55:57
Brooke Shaden: Absolutely.
55:58
Brooke Shaden: Do I care about the integrity of my personal craft and what it means to me?
56:02
Brooke Shaden: Yes.
56:02
Brooke Shaden: And for me, I draw the line at generative AI.
56:06
Brooke Shaden: I find that it takes the joy out of the experience and AI can never generate experience for you.
56:12
Brooke Shaden: I get such a thrill out of waking up at 4 a.m.
56:15
Brooke Shaden: to traips into the forest and, you know, throw myself in a pond for a photo.
56:20
Brooke Shaden: And that is the purpose of it, you know?
56:23
Brooke Shaden: The what I create at the end of it is is just icing on the cake.
56:27
Brooke Shaden: And it always has been for me.
56:29
Brooke Shaden: I love the process of creating.
56:32
Brooke Shaden: And to me, this is how, you know, I like to say that that I want to live a thousand lives in one.
56:38
Brooke Shaden: And what I mean by that is that every day I have to do something that's different, that I remember, that makes me feel something extreme.
56:46
Brooke Shaden: And by being a photographer, it's like a built-in method of doing that.
56:51
Brooke Shaden: Like I get to do something weird every day for my art and I remember it.
56:56
Brooke Shaden: And so to me, it's like, you know, my art is not just what I put out.
57:01
Brooke Shaden: It is so much more the process of building it and also the process of sharing it and having discourse with people about how they feel and how I felt and how that went into every pixel or every word that I've written and and all of that.
57:16
Brooke Shaden: So, yeah, so I feel very strongly for me about generative AI.
57:20
Brooke Shaden: I don't, I'm not a crusader, though.
57:23
Brooke Shaden: Like I'm not coming after the people who love it.
57:26
Brooke Shaden: And I do recognize that there are so many uses for it in, you know, in different communities where where they might be underserved.
57:34
David McClelland: We interviewed a photographer last year called Nikki Hamilton, who you describe your fourth wall work, where you, you know, after the feedback from the portfolio review, you've created this space that you that that you built up.
57:49
David McClelland: Um and Nikki's been on a very similar journey, creative director at uh at an agency, and then built meticulously built these sets that help to create a body of work which was about the relationship between him and his father.
58:04
David McClelland: Quite a quite a challenging relationship.
58:06
David McClelland: And it took him years and years and years and years.
58:09
David McClelland: Where his work has taken him now is that people are saying, Oh yeah, you used AI to make that, didn't you?
58:16
David McClelland: Because his work is is so detailed that it's almost come to meet, even though it was made pre-generative AI, it's come to almost meet the level of detail that generative AI images can make.
58:31
David McClelland: I wonder if you've had anybody look at your work and go, oh yeah, that looks like it's AI generated or not.
58:39
David McClelland: Again, I I haven't come across anybody who said that for your work, but I just wonder if that's of an accusation that you have had thrown at you.
58:47
Brooke Shaden: It isn't really.
58:48
Brooke Shaden: And I have theories about this.
58:50
Brooke Shaden: And part of the theory that I have, and and I'm not saying that I'm unique in this, but I think this plays into it, which is that I've shared my work online since I day one, since I made my first image.
59:03
Brooke Shaden: And I've always shared a good deal about my life and what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, how I've made it.
59:09
Brooke Shaden: I share a lot of tutorials about how it's done because I want people to have access to the tools to do it, you know, to like know how they can express that.
59:18
Brooke Shaden: And I think that that has served me greatly in the AI discussion because a lot of my audience has been there for a really long time watching me do this before AI was a conversation.
59:29
Brooke Shaden: And I think that there's just something about what I'm doing that is obviously very physical for me, being the person in the image.
59:39
Brooke Shaden: And then also very personal that people are, you know, like following my story in different ways, whether it's through the years that I fostered or the, you know, years of, you know, making art out, you know, in a certain space and and stuff like that.
59:53
Brooke Shaden: So I think that there's just like an assumption that it's not uh on a base level so far.
59:59
Brooke Shaden: And maybe that will change because obviously audiences flip over and new people come.
1:00:03
Brooke Shaden: But um, but so far I've I just really haven't heard that.
1:00:06
Brooke Shaden: And I'm surprised because I went into the AI discussion very ready to defend myself and like bring out the receipts, you know, like, no, I have a picture behind the scenes, you know?
1:00:16
Brooke Shaden: And and yeah, it's just not, it's been a non-conversation, which I'm thrilled about because it's a conversation all the time in many different ways, and it's like so exhausting at some point to keep talking about it.
1:00:28
Brooke Shaden: But yeah, I'm glad that I haven't had to defend myself all that much and that there seems to be just a mutual understanding of what's happening here.
1:00:37
David McClelland: I think anybody who's followed your work, like you say, or listened to the conversation that we've had today, will understand the the joy that you get from getting up in the morning and making images and being in those images and then bringing them to life and sharing them.
1:00:56
David McClelland: Why would you and your and your process and your reason for making those images in the first place, why would you want to get rid of that or to uh to outsource that to something else if that's your process?
1:01:09
Brooke Shaden: I can't imagine wanting to do that, and that doesn't mean that there aren't temptations with AI, you know, like I'll be in Photoshop cutting something out, like, oh boy, this could be easier, you know?
1:01:20
Brooke Shaden: And then and then, but you you have to recognize that it's a really slippery slope.
1:01:24
Brooke Shaden: You know, if you start to say, well, I could do that easier, well, you could do a lot of things easier, but what's the point?
1:01:30
Brooke Shaden: Like, why are you even doing it in the first place?
1:01:32
Brooke Shaden: And if you don't have an answer to that, then then you might fall off and and do something that maybe you'll regret later or not.
1:01:38
Brooke Shaden: I mean, who knows?
1:01:39
Brooke Shaden: But I know for me, I have to really stop myself right away and say, go back to your why.
1:01:44
Brooke Shaden: Why are you doing this?
1:01:45
Brooke Shaden: Why is this important to you?
1:01:46
Brooke Shaden: Why is this how you want to spend the finite hours of your life and then remember that.
1:01:52
David McClelland: As we grow, Brooke, our fears change.
1:01:55
David McClelland: I have a big birthday tomorrow as we're recording.
1:01:59
David McClelland: Uh you were talking about how long you have been making these images for, and about how your relationship with fear maybe has changed in some ways, hasn't in some other ways.
1:02:11
David McClelland: I just wonder how you reflect on your work changing.
1:02:14
David McClelland: Obviously, as you've learnt your craft and learnt the things that you enjoy doing, there's a natural evolution there.
1:02:20
David McClelland: But I wonder if thematically, as well as the output itself, how you've observed that changing and where you not that you want to predict where your work might take you yet next, but where you s might be able to see your work moving to next.
1:02:36
Brooke Shaden: Well, for me, it's about I I feel that from day one, I had this tagline in my head of I want to create beauty in darkness.
1:02:45
Brooke Shaden: That was day one, what I said to myself and what I still say now.
1:02:49
Brooke Shaden: That will always be my goal, I believe.
1:02:52
Brooke Shaden: And the only difference is that it gets more specific as different events happen in your life.
1:02:58
Brooke Shaden: And so, yeah, that's the overarching theme of what I'm trying to do.
1:03:01
Brooke Shaden: But then it manifests in much more specific ways.
1:03:04
Brooke Shaden: And so my my current goal is to uh create work about impermanence and love and how we can love without ownership.
1:03:14
Brooke Shaden: And it's a very specific niche of beauty and darkness stemming directly from my experience as a foster parent and wanting to portray this idea that if we can love without having to own the people and things that we love, then we can love more broadly and widely and without attachments or ownership of them.
1:03:33
Brooke Shaden: So it's like it's complicated, you know, and this manifests in a lot of different ways.
1:03:38
Brooke Shaden: So I'm creating a new photo series right now that is largely about bringing in modern elements into my work, which I've never done before.
1:03:48
Brooke Shaden: So I have um an image that I'll release hopefully soon with a bunch of stuffed animals in it, and another image with blow-up swans, like for the pool and stuff like that.
1:03:58
Brooke Shaden: And it's completely different in that sense, but it helps to make the point that I'm trying to make, which is a very difficult and specific point that I'm making.
1:04:09
Brooke Shaden: My work, though, is broadening, you know, I think in a lot of ways.
1:04:13
Brooke Shaden: So even though I'm getting more specific with the exact concept that I'm trying to portray, I'm allowing myself to portray that in diverse ways.
1:04:23
Brooke Shaden: And so some examples of this are that I just hosted um an interactive, immersive uh play where people could come in and photograph the play as it unfolded.
1:04:34
Brooke Shaden: It was a five-minute experience.
1:04:36
Brooke Shaden: It was really beautiful.
1:04:37
Brooke Shaden: We had dancers hired, it was lovely.
1:04:39
Brooke Shaden: And that was a fascinating foray into a new form of art where I got to build the play and direct it and, you know, make sure everything was set how I wanted.
1:04:51
Brooke Shaden: And then to just watch crowds of people come in, sometimes 50 at a time, to get their cameras out and photograph it and see what resonated was was completely new and different.
1:05:01
Brooke Shaden: And then um, I also have my first um book deal this year for my novels that I've written.
1:05:07
Brooke Shaden: And so yeah, it's amazing.
1:05:10
Brooke Shaden: So I have I just finished my final edit here.
1:05:13
Brooke Shaden: Oh wow, uh yeah, and and you know, this is a it's a fantasy romance book, but it is also about foster care and it's about how families hold themselves together when the world insists they shouldn't exist.
1:05:28
Brooke Shaden: And so you can see how like all of these art forms are sort of diversifying, but also becoming more specific.
1:05:36
David McClelland: Brooke, as always, it's it's an absolute pleasure to speak with you for for all of the different ways in which you create, in which you share really intimate stuff, frankly.
1:05:49
David McClelland: It's it's beautiful, it's spellbinding, and it is instructive of the world around us, but also I think we learn a lot about ourselves.
1:05:58
David McClelland: Uh, and I I feel as though I've learned a lot from chatting to you for the last 40 or so minutes.
1:06:03
David McClelland: Brooke Shaden, thank you for joining us on the Photography and Video Show podcast.
1:06:07
Brooke Shaden: Thank you for having me.
1:06:11
David McClelland: Thanks again to the incredible Brooke Shaden.
1:06:14
David McClelland: Some links to her work in the show notes.
1:06:16
David McClelland: And that is all we have time for this month.
1:06:19
David McClelland: Thanks to all of our guests and thanks to you for sticking with us all the way to the end.
1:06:23
David McClelland: Remember, tickets for the in-person show at the XL in London from the 13th to the 16th of March 2027.
1:06:30
David McClelland: Available very soon from photography show.com and follow at the Photography Show on Instagram for updates as they come.
1:06:39
David McClelland: We'll be back in November with more camera news, reviews, and features.
1:06:43
David McClelland: But until then, from all of the team here, bye bye.