Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / PRETTY HIP HOP: The Untold Stories of Women In Hip Hop with Writer/Historian Clover Hope and Rapper Kierra Luv

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PRETTY HIP HOP: The Untold Stories of Women In Hip Hop with Writer/Historian Clover Hope and Rapper Kierra Luv · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Big Things
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever, pretty strong.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests and I
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: have conversations that put a new spin on pretty. This
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: is pretty smart. Hip hop has been around for nearly
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  Speaker 1: fifty years. It began in the Bronx, New York City
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  Speaker 1: in the late nineteen seventies. From the beginning, hip hop
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  Speaker 1: was way more than music. It was a movement, and
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: it was led by DJs MC's breakdancers, graffiti artists, and poets.
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  Speaker 1: And just like any culture, particularly one that starts at
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  Speaker 1: society's margins, it was rooted in storytelling. But we aren't
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  Speaker 1: hearing the whole story. Just like so many female scientists, writers,
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  Speaker 1: and leaders were written out of history, so were many
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  Speaker 1: of the contributes of women in hip hop. We know
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  Speaker 1: the stories of Run dmc NWA, Biggie Tupac, jay Z,
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  Speaker 1: but until we hear the real achievements of pioneers like
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  Speaker 1: Lady of Rage, Charlie Baltimore, De Brat, Lil Kim, Queen Latifah,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Eve Nicki, Minaj, Cardi B, we don't really know the
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  Speaker 1: full story that changes Today, we're hearing from hip hop
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  Speaker 1: historian Clover Hope and later in the episode one of
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  Speaker 1: my favorite female MC's, but first. Clover is an adjunct
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: professor at NYU. She's written for Vogue, The New York Times, GQ,
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  Speaker 1: Billboard Essence. She co wrote Black as King with Beyonce.
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  Speaker 1: She's interviewed hundreds of rappers, and now she's documenting the
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  Speaker 1: women who often go unrecognized in her book The Mother Load,
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  Speaker 1: The hundred plus Women who Made Hip Hop. Professor Hope,
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  Speaker 1: the book is out and it's so good. You know,
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  Speaker 1: these women truly in fluence culture, and I cannot help.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I think we have to start the interview with what
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  Speaker 1: influenced you to write this book?
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  Speaker 2: So it's, you know, one hundred plus women who made
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: hip hop? And that wasn't always the title. Had started
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: out with fewer, a shorter list basically, and then the
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: more I kind of kept researching and kept actually speaking
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  Speaker 2: to the women and getting their stories, it kind of
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  Speaker 2: just expanded and became you know, I basically it was like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: highlighting at least a hundred would just point to like
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: the magnitude and volume of women that have existed in
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  Speaker 2: the culture. And just kind of prove a point that
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  Speaker 2: if you can't name, you know, like ten female rappers,
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  Speaker 2: like here are a hundred.
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  Speaker 3: That you can look at, you know, kind of like
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  Speaker 3: add to your list.
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  Speaker 2: And so, you know, I kind of I just wanted
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  Speaker 2: to write like a really cool history book, kind of
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  Speaker 2: like I wanted to take people on a different type
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  Speaker 2: of history trip, and I wanted to also just kind
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  Speaker 2: of play a role in like rewriting and retelling history
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: in some way. You know, this is geeky, but an
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: analogy is like I'm like a big science fiction fan
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  Speaker 2: and I just love stories that kind of involve time travel.
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  Speaker 2: And there's always this point where they're like, oh, don't
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: change anything, you're going to like change the future or whatever.
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  Speaker 2: And so this is kind of like an opportunity to
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  Speaker 2: like change the future story of women in hip hop
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  Speaker 2: where it's like this is a point, a big point
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  Speaker 2: in time for women in hip hop where you know,
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  Speaker 2: Megan and Stallion and Cardi or Flora Shane, you have
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  Speaker 2: all these young artists. This is a chance to kind
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: of like retell that story. And so you know, I
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  Speaker 2: wanted to do that and create a new kind of
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  Speaker 2: like alternate timeline of history.
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  Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that because I heard someone on
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  Speaker 1: NPR say in an interview with you that if you
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  Speaker 1: pan the camera to the left, there's a whole scene
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  Speaker 1: happening that we didn't know about. And so I'm really today,
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  Speaker 1: I just want to pan left with you. How does
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: hip hop go from being something for everyone to a
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  Speaker 1: men's sport because women were there from the beginning.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it started as a culture, like a culture
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  Speaker 2: that was like different elements, and it was break dancing
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  Speaker 2: and graffiti, and like the name rap didn't. It didn't
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  Speaker 2: start out as rap, you know, like it was hip hop,
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  Speaker 2: and even that name didn't it wasn't coined until later on.
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  Speaker 3: So it just started out as people like doing.
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  Speaker 2: Poetry on a mic phone and like performing in parks
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  Speaker 2: and throwing parties and DJing and spinning, and so that
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  Speaker 2: cultural process once that turned into I think like just
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  Speaker 2: commercial you know, like having to sell something like you know,
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  Speaker 2: late seventies, eighties, you.
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  Speaker 3: Know, it becomes rap.
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  Speaker 2: And then when you have like a business, someone has
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  Speaker 2: to be in control, and then the people in control
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  Speaker 2: are like the men because probably because like that it's
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  Speaker 2: just mirroring the larger like you know, American system, young
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  Speaker 2: black men creating this industry, this out of culture and
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  Speaker 2: then kind of you know, putting themselves in charge and
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  Speaker 2: in control. And so it's in that way. I think
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  Speaker 2: it's in some ways, I just see like the book
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  Speaker 2: and kind of like the story. These stories as like
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  Speaker 2: stories about just women in the workplace in general.
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  Speaker 3: You know, like these are women in.
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  Speaker 2: A work environment where they are not getting credit or
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  Speaker 2: kind of not being able to tell their story in
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  Speaker 2: the same way or you know, and we've all been
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: in those meetings. So I feel like it's just like
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  Speaker 2: basically like it's mirroring that larger picture.
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  Speaker 1: And this book really fixes that. You learn so much.
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  Speaker 1: I'm curious as to what the lyrics said in the beginning,
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  Speaker 1: What were women talking about when rap and hip hop started?
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  Speaker 2: I think that's a great question, because like there's a
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  Speaker 2: different approach that women have, just like naturally, and then
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  Speaker 2: also within the culture, just like young black women, there's
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  Speaker 2: a different kind of like perspective that they can bring,
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  Speaker 2: just like as girls growing up in America and growing
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  Speaker 2: up black in America, and so you know, they were rapping.
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  Speaker 3: A lot about that. So I'm pepa kind of.
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  Speaker 2: Like bringing the social awareness to hip hop that you
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: know men were doing. You know, you had like the
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  Speaker 2: message and things like that, and saw Peple was bringing
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  Speaker 2: it from the women's standpoint, like we go through those
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  Speaker 2: things also, but then on top of that, we're also
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  Speaker 2: dealing with like.
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  Speaker 3: Not getting like paid in the way that we.
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  Speaker 2: Want to, and like not having certain control overs certain
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  Speaker 2: like entrepreneurial opportunities or things like that. So they were
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  Speaker 2: rapping about that, and you know, so Peple were rapping
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  Speaker 2: about that in the eighties, you know, like they had
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  Speaker 2: also the boastful songs like I'll take your Man, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and things like that, and they're rapping about, you know,
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  Speaker 2: men being promiscuous. Their tramp song is like basically calling
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  Speaker 2: men tramps, and you know, so they were kind of
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  Speaker 2: like taking the wheel a little bit basically. So it
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  Speaker 2: was a mix of you know, the tough talk that
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  Speaker 2: guys were doing, but then like adding they're touched to it,
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  Speaker 2: you know, like here's here's our voice, Like here's what
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  Speaker 2: also like here's what we think about your rapping, which
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  Speaker 2: I think was important to continue, like creating a space
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  Speaker 2: for women who came after them, you know, because it's
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: like you guys are rapping about this it's not cool.
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  Speaker 2: Here's what we think, you know, Like that was it's.
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  Speaker 1: Kind of like a call and answer almost, it's right.
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  Speaker 1: It was this little dance like okay, guys, you think
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  Speaker 1: you're cool, we have something to say.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, kind of like adding that it's like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: the woman's perspective, the woman's touch to to like the culture.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that was just like important to just
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  Speaker 2: rounding out the music so that it's not it's so
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  Speaker 2: much like hip hop is just so much about every
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  Speaker 2: like your personal experience, like within like within a system
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  Speaker 2: sort of. And I think them like women kind of
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  Speaker 2: like helping to fill in that picture was important. And
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  Speaker 2: you know, it's like we need to hear those stories
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  Speaker 2: because they just get you know, sidelined a lot or
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  Speaker 2: forgotten or it's kind of like people don't even know
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  Speaker 2: about certain you know, contributions.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you see all these people's stories immortalized in film,
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  Speaker 1: and very rarely do you see a woman's story, which
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  Speaker 1: just speaks to what we're emphasizing in pop culture. You know,
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  Speaker 1: some of the people you outline in the book were icons,
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  Speaker 1: like Missy Elliott, and some were lesser known but all
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  Speaker 1: of them were really pivotal to the foundation and evolution
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  Speaker 1: of hip hop. To me, there was one story, Lady
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  Speaker 1: of Rage. She really stuck out and I didn't know
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  Speaker 1: about her until I read your book. Shack said, you're
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: good enough to play in the NBA, but we don't
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  Speaker 1: know what to do with you. Sort of as an analogy,
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  Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about her story?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So Lady of Rage, you know, if you were
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  Speaker 2: kind of like a kid, like growing up in the
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  Speaker 2: nineties or whatever, you might remember like Afropops and that
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  Speaker 2: was like her kind of like breakout single, and she
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  Speaker 2: was fined to death Row Records, which was you know,
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  Speaker 2: Shig Knight and Hoooped, a Doctor Dre and Tupac, so all.
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  Speaker 3: Of these giants.
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  Speaker 2: You know, she was on a label with them and challenged,
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  Speaker 2: like she was signed for a reason, you know, like
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  Speaker 2: she's lyrically, like she got a lot of praise for
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  Speaker 2: her lyrical skills and so, but it's difficult to kind
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  Speaker 2: of be on a label where you're surrounded by all
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  Speaker 2: these like like those names, like giant like forces like
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: within hip hop, and not only hip hop, but those
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  Speaker 2: guys were like crushing pop music in general, like just
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: music all over the charts, and you would think that
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: it would you know, create this space and opportunity for
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: her to kind of like take a piece of the
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  Speaker 2: pie a bit and kind of like get get in there.
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  Speaker 2: But this is just one of the cases of like
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: her album just kind of like was sitting on the shelves.
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  Speaker 2: You know, she was kind of like waiting to waiting
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: to kind of like get that break and get in
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  Speaker 2: the door with that her first album and anything.
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  Speaker 1: It was so cool reading that she moved to New
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: York and she was sweeping floors and getting coffee and
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: she just wanted to meet run DMC and she ended
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  Speaker 1: up sitting on the shelf like she could only contribute
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to these guys songs. It must have happened to so
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  Speaker 1: many women, their songs would just sit on the shelf
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  Speaker 1: of the label.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah right, Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And the thing is, you know, it happens to artists
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  Speaker 2: in general. So many musicians like need to get an
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  Speaker 2: opportunity or a chance and they just end up never
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  Speaker 2: coming out. But I think the difference with women in
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  Speaker 2: rap is that it's just such a low number or
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: volume of them, even like to begin with getting signed
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  Speaker 2: or getting opportunities. Few are even releasing an album, you know,
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  Speaker 2: whereas you know, like a hundred men signed to a
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: label or something like, at least you know, the percentages
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  Speaker 2: are not in their favor.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, at each step, it keeps becoming less and less probable.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly, And so I think we just saw
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: that with a few women like these lost kind of
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: like potential a bit like Lady of Rage, like if
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: you like, she could have like kind of like blown
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: up after afropops and kind of taking a different trajectory.
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  Speaker 2: But it highlights how labels create separation basically, so like
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  Speaker 2: a label like female rapper just automatically puts them in
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  Speaker 2: a different category.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 2: I think that that is a story that keeps kind
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: of getting repeated. A nice thing now is that we
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: do have this like influx of women, and so now
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  Speaker 2: we actually have more options, better options, and like more volume.
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  Speaker 1: And so then we're going to get to that you
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: can't give away the Cinderella ending. Yeah, yeah, we're going
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: to talk about how that parlor alert. I'm glad you
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: brought up the term female rapper because I often think
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: about the term female founder and people have different perspectives
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: on it. I agree with you. I think it separates us.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I'm just a founder. I don't need to be a
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: female founder. You said it best. You said the word
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: female rapper alludes to being led into an exclusively male
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: dominated space as opposed to being a natural part of it.
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  Speaker 1: So what I found interesting about that is the word
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: separates female rappers from rappers, and yet the basis of success,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: it's based on the same metrics as.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: Men, right right.
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  Speaker 2: Something that I kind of like talk about in the
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  Speaker 2: book is just the way that certain like achievements would
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: have been forgotten if not for the female rapper kind
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: of category. It's like this weird thing where like it
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: sucks to kind of like be separated, but then in
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: being separated, you get these designations like first female rapper
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: to win a Grammy, first female rapper to sell gold
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: or like sell platinum. Those are distinctions that would get
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: lost if people didn't call them out in that way.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's just this kind of like unfortunate like
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: ways that achievements kind of like they're remembered.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: So maybe I need to change my mind on the
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: term because it gave people a leg to stand on.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and It's like I kind of say this about
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: like actor and actresses and how so many actresses would
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: have been and kind of like lost in time or
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: like not given certain recognition if it was just like, oh,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: the best actor is Sean Connery or whatever, and then
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: you just like forget all the women who are also
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: acting because we're still and we've just always been in
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: this system where like gods get the rewards.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: And so the.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Problem is that is the obviously like the system itself
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: more so than the label.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: The label is kind of like a result of this
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: kind of like.
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  Speaker 1: It's part of the machine.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the machine exactly.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I want to go through some of the
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: metrics because they're exciting. You have Sultan Peppa. It seems
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: that women find a little more mainstream success in the
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: mid nineties. You have Sultan Peppa. They won their first
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Grammy in ninety five, and Queen Latifa won Best Solo
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Rap Performance that same year. And then I heard you
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: talk about Shoot in nineteen ninety three. You loved that song,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: you said you were singing.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: I love that song. Yeah, I love that song.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I just remember, yeah, like Entrance and Peppa, but kind
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: of starts off with just me remembering like learning the
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: lyrics to that song and like singing it on the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: school bus and like, you know, like we would do
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: you know, like as we're going on a field trip.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: It's like here I go, Here I go, you know.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: And I think that like in terms of like success
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: and like how that kind of like played out. Part
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: of that was that the seventies was like the beginning
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: of hip hop, and then I think the eighties was like, Okay,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: we're taking it and kind of like figuring out what
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: this music is and like, well, our identity is within it.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: It was like the coming out party whatever. And then
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: nineties was really when it started to actually become like
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: a lucrative business and like sell and you know it
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: was given country started becoming bigger than country music and
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: never like died down and never kind of like lost
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: that momentum.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Basically now, I mean hip hop is like the driving
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: force of music.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: So in the nineties we did see you know, like
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: the on Peppa and Queen Latifa and MCL like groups
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: like jj FAD and like groups that came out through
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: men like Oaktown's three five to seven with mc hammer,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: or a group like Leatrim which had like cars that
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: go boom, and that that decades later is like all
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: of it was like all over TikTok at one point,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: like like the teens were dancing for that song. And
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: so that nineties was I think just like a really
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: like a period of decadence and just like they were
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: becoming capitalists, you know, like they were getting money and
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: flaunting it. And that was the Shiny Suit era, Like
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: there was a name for it, like city and you know,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: bad boys like the Shiny Suit era, like they loss
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: and like spend a lot of money. Missy Elliott was
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: making these like ginormous, like crazy eccentric videos, and it
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: was really hip hop kind of like coming out, coming
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: into its own as a business and mixing business and culture.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: I think, so you write in the book, by then
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: hip hop and rap were two different things, a culture
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: and a business respectively. Male rappers were rappers, and women
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: who did it, though talented, were different. They had breasts
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: which they could flaunt if they wanted, and therefore needed
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: a separate title. So we have to talk sexual liberation
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: because so much of that is built in to women's
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: rap lyrics. Sexual freedom was a pillar and I think
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: remains to be a pillar for female MC's. To this day,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: you have people like Saltan Pepa rapping these sexually liberating lyrics,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: and then there's an element of sexualization of women and
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: hip hop that can kind of border exploitation. It's this
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: interesting contrast, and when I think about exploitation, my mind
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: immediately goes to Lil Kim. I didn't know this. Her
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: image was completely crafted by Biggie and Rivera.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Lance On Rivera was like an executive who worked with
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Biggie and I guess I wouldn't say like completely, but
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: they like the image of Kim that people really really
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: was like a big bang or whatever like that her
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: squaddy in the bikini, like she's in a position of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: power visually, and so Babie chose that picture and was like,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: this is the one I want, and this is what
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: you know should be part of your marketing because guys
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: will eat this up and like they'll love it. She
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: was still pretty young and not kind of like knowing
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: the business as much.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: There's also some.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Level of her discovering herself in that time, Like that's
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: a time when we're like, yes, young women all having
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: this like blossoming or like sexuality or you know, that's
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: not to say basically like, you know, you have these
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: men kind of like searing the wheel. And what makes
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: it complicated is that she is at the same time
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: discovering or kind of like wanting to show her sexuality
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: or wanting to kind of like be sexy. And there's
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: different reasons for that. So those things, you know, end
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: up being in the same room or kind of like
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: coming up against each other, and it's hard. And when
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: that happens, it's hard to tell how much control there is,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: you know, like how much is her wanting to kind
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: of put this out, how much is it like going
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: along with what she thinks like men will like or
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: what will sell. All of that just gets muddy, and
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: I think that's when it becomes a really really interesting
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: conversation about like how women exist in rap or like
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: how they're supposed to kind of sell and discover themselves
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: and also like this products.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: But then it's this culture.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Also, and it's such a hard place to be in.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: You know, for any women who like decides to rap,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: you have to kind of like choose how you're going
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: to look.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Well, they kind of they put her in this archetype
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: right she was supposed to be the side check of
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: the drug dealer. That's what Biggie said. He wanted her
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: to look like.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: There was this kind of mission or kind of like
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: you know, desire from the guy's end that they would
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: you know, Kim was like the mistress.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Of rap basically. And that was a phrase that.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Lancean Rivera kind of like used to kind of like
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: describe how they pushed her marketing or how they wanted
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: her to kind of appear. And you know, I think
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: that gets it's definitely you know, for her, that's difficult.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Like she was also in a relationship with Biggie like
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: at that time, and so that also complicated things because
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: she's being pushed as this mistress and also like dealing
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: with this guy who was she was mistress in a
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: relationship with Faith. Yeah, and so it's you know, art
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: and life that really mixed up. And I think it
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: was a really interesting cultural nexus. I guess it's like
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: a different sexuality and like control and kind of like
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: you know, hip hop becoming a commodity. She kind of
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: fell in that time period that all these things were happening.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, she took so many risks musically fashion wise,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: we don't get the female rappers we have today, who, right,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I mean we have Cardi b Nicki Minaj, I think
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of her, little Kim is kind of the sacrificial Kim.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved what me Hilton Brim said and he
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: still was her like stylist and like still works today
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: as stylas and she's like legendary. She said something about
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Kim laying a foundation for like taking risks and how
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: the fact that Kim didn't want to underplay her looks
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: to be respected as a rapper was important to kind
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: of this place where women could kind of decide how
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: they want to show themselves or decide how you know,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: be the ones to decide, like, right, this is how
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: I want to look, or this is how you know,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I want to kind of like present, and you know
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: that there could be also just glamor within that you
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: even have to kind of like hide your body under
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: like oversized clothing. Talking about sexuality and like pop right
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: in general is just always so kind of mixed up
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: for women because they have to consider all these things
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: and like how people are looking at them, and like
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: there's that pressure to kind of fit into some you know,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: like definition of like what is sexy.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: I think that still exists, Like, in order.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: To sell on a large scale, there's some level of
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: like sexiness that you're selling or as a woman in
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: pop and I think they, you know, they had to
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: kind of like just navigate that a lot in the
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: nineties and two thousand.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up baggy clothes because you talk
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: about how the mainstream model was built around sex appeal,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: but eventually another model of success happened. I mean there's
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: de Bratt and Queen Latifah. You say about de Bratt
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: and her tomboy image, but sex made for good business.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: So de Brat's decision to play against type was almost
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: too obvious bait to fans male tastes. So heavily defined
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: the concept of image in the era that for women,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: simply deciding what to wear as an artist became a
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: do or die. I can't believe that much emphasis was
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: on that.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: So that as a good example, because she kind of
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: like started out with the baggy clothes and like the
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: she's wearing like triple excel clothing, and so I just
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: kind of wrote about the point where she made that
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: you know, invention, and she basically like switched up. She
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: was wearing a bikini in a music video and it
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: was like this huge thing and Tyresee was in the
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: video and you know, because it was like, oh wait,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Bratt was like do sexy now, like what's happening. And
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: so then that also becomes like a thing because people
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: are looking at her differently.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: It's like, oh no, you're supposed to.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Be the other, like the kind of like other kind
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: the opposite of like selling sex or whatever. And so
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: that entry is kind of about how kind of like
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: attached expectations to women based on like how they look.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: I think people are always associating like the look, the
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: sexy look with like rapping about sex. Like for example,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Missy was very like she was always rapping about sex,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: but she didn't like dress, she didn't wear bikinis or
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: kind of like things like that, but she was like
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: very sexual in her music. But that's like this expectation
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: that people have when it comes to women. There's like
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: image is just like a social shaded with like anything
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: they put out.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: And so yeah, Brap, you know, was just kind of.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Like a like a good example of expectations around image
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: and like looks.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: There were so many expectations around image. I guess there
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: still are, to be honest, here's where it gets really
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: zigzaggy for me, and I'm hoping you can break this down.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: So the women were figuring out the line between owning
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: their sexuality and exploiting it, and at the same time,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: there's some misogyny in rap lyrics from the men. So
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: you write in the book, women who decided to rap
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: about inequality faced a unique challenge. Their genre was led
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: by the voices of young black men like Nwa, who
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: were speaking against racism and oppression, while in the process
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: downgrading their black female colleagues and doing it through irresistible,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: misogynistic songs that enchanted young women too.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the evergreen question or dilemma for specifically,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: like any like black woman who.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Loves hip hop and kind of like falls in love
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: with it.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: You're just kind of I guess, like we're in this
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: space where we're both like a fan and of target
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: or like a victim in a way, like a subject
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and the objects. And you can make the music and
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: like enjoy the music as a fan and also like
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: feel attacked by it, you know. So the women hip
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: hop journalists who I kind of like came up reading
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: would kind of tackle those issues head on, and like,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: you know, here are the ways in which like Biggie
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: was like nosogynists or like you know, all these men
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: were rapping about like beating women or kind of like
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and how that was just like there were women in
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: writing about hip hop kind of like tackled some of
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: those issues. And I mean it's like in a way,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: just being black in America, it's like you're just in
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: this country that you have to exist in and feel
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: like attacking you from different corners, and like you have
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: to kind of make your way through and you have
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: to kind of like push against the current.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: I guess, you know.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: And I say that because like the creation of hip
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: hop is like I mean, it's like black music and
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: black and around people specifically like making this and you
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: know it then going out to different people. But in
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: terms of being a female rapper, you're just constantly in
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: this space of feeling.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Like like I love hip hop, but then.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: You know, for example, Megan thee Stallion just you know,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: she loves rapping, she loves being in it, and then
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: she's also like literally it's like a violence, and so
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: it's a tricky space to be in.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very unique. When I think about rappers speaking
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: about women, in my mind always goes right to Tupac.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's changed, Like, do you because he
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: had some lyrics that I think helped lift women up.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Not all of them, right, but some. Do you think
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: male rappers nowadays have the lyrics changed at all?
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's been more of an evolution
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: of like there's things you just maybe don't say now,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: or a lot of lyrics from the nineties or whatever
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: from you know, like snoop or too short or whatever
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: that I don't I think there's definitely still like offensive lyrics,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: and honestly, sometimes as women listening to hip hop, we're
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: nodding along because like it's catchy beat or again, we
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: have to exist in this like very weird space where
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: something is talking down but like it's also like energetic
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: and it's you know, hard to deal with that.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: There's all these first that I loved reading about that
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier. I did not know Eve was credited
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: with melding high fashion and hip hop. That was really
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: cool to learn.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I talked to a couple of her former stylists
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: and I think that's the example of how she's not
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: someone people would have thought of as like kind of
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: bringing high fashion or the runway whatever to hip hop.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Because maybe these days people associate.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: It more with like you know, like Kanye Be bringing
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: like street fashion or like the high level street fashion,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: like super expensive street fashion, and like you know, Pharral
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: and people like that. But you know, I kind of
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: say that even before then, Boxing and Kim obviously we're
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: bringing this luxury and glamour and rapping about like you know,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Christian Lacroix and like you know, Isaac mss Rahi and
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: so many designers that I.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Learned about through them.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: So I was like, I don't know these I don't
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: know these names. And Eve was like part of that
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: evolution also where she was wearing these labels. And you know,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: at a time when it was the European brands and
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: like those super high fashion, they didn't want rappers to
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: be like wearing their clothing like it's it was this
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: process of like now it's cool, like they want that
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: cool factor of you know, they need it.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't sell it without cool people wearing their clothes.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: And now there's like the it's the norm, but Eve
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: was kind of like basically breaking down.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Some of those stores, and I wanted to, you know.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Highlight stories like that that kind of are a realization
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: in some way.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: There was another first I found interesting. Lauren Hill was
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: the first to have a number one single on the
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Billboard Hot one hundred chart in ninety eight. But the
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: real first is that she was the first woman in
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: hip hop to have a baby like publicly and make it.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: She rapped about it, she talked about how it affected her,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: and I just I fast forward to when Cardi B
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: got pregnant. She was at the height of her fame
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: and everyone was like, oh, she's done, It's over right.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it feels archaic to kind of like think
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: about pregnancy being like a hindrance, but it's also not
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: something that went away. Like Cardi, we talked about getting
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: that question she was pregnant, and she was like blowing
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: up and it's like, oh, man, are you sure, like
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: your career is like taking off, and like now you
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: want to like have a.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: Baby, like you're crazy? You know?
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: That decision I guess like still exists for women and
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: even some of the women I talked to like mc Shahrack,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: who is considered like the first kind of like prominent female.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: MC talked about like when she got pregnant and like
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: she was in Funky four plus one and it kind
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: of like they were worried about it affecting their tour plans,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: and you know, like it became this thing that she
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: had to consider. And sure like from that time, like
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: just even getting pregnant and wanting to start a family
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: would kick women out of the game essentially, either just
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: through other people doing it or them deciding, well, I
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: guess I have to choose, so, like I don't want
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: to stop doing this and start a family.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I want to fast forward a little bit to two
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: modern day rappers, Nicki Minaj and Cardi B. They both
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: came out with an image and a sound that was
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: incredibly cultivated, and after reading your book, I couldn't help
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: but think that they got to learn from all the
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: women that came before them, Right, what was each of
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: their stamp on hip hop culture? In your mind, like
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: what comes from the story of Niki and what comes
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: from the story of Cardi.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Definitely with Nikki, there was this period where women in
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: rap weren't kind of like being signed to label major labels,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: and there was kind of a little lull and there
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: being like one dominant artist at the top of the
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: charts and things like that, like even thinking about that
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Ara pre Nick a bit.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: And now it's just such a difference where we can
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: have more than one, where.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: We have Carti, Nicki, Megan Dojakat, Sweetie, like Lizzo, like
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: all on the charts and like making these big waves.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: And Nicky played a big role in kind of just
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: opening the door back up at a time when I
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: think people didn't know what they were looking for in
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: a female rapper. You know, it was like, well, what
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: would it be like, what would she look like?
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: What would the next.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Big kind of like female rap start even look like
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: or bring to the table. And Nicki just kind of
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: came and provided, I think, like just to mention, like
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: with her, she brought the character and persona, she brought
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: the like lyrical ability, she brought the showmanship of just
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: like putting on a show, and like she was funny
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: and she could kind of like carry a song and
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: put on a performance, and she was like business minded
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: and wanted to do a lot, so she I think
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: she showed that there's like no limits, and she brought.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: That kind of boss mentality.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I don't want to just sound like, oh like girl bossy,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: but like you know, like she brought that kind.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Of like she brought the heat, like she wasn't one
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: of the boys. She became the hip hop sort of
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: center at one point.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the gravity, like she brought hip hop to her.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: She became like you know, just through doing hip hop
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: and making it pop and made people kind of like
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: pay attention. And I think that and the way she
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: did it, you know, being stylish and like colorful and
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: like loud, really allowed other young women to kind of
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: see this success model of Okay, I can kind of
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: be weird or I can kind of like be you know,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: have all these different personas and I can I don't
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: have to be.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: One specific thing.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: I think that helped kind of just even just aspire
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: some women to kind of continued pursuing rap, like Megan
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Rego Nasty has cited Nikki is like an influence, you know,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: So I think that did help. And then for Cardi,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: I think it showed that while one that she could
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: kind of create like her own persona like Carti with
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Carti and like she kind of did everything through social
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: media and kind of ushered in this era where there
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: wasn't just one prominent woman rapper, like visibly, it was, oh,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: we could have Nikki and Carti at the same time, Nikki, yeah,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: both having like hit songs, and then we could have
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Nikki Carti and Megan. Like it just kept being a surprise.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: It was like a you know, the box just kept multiplying.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: And I think Carti really kind of took it in
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: another direction where all right, you can use social media.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like bring yourself into the game and
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: create your own world and bring it to you in
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: a similar way than Nikki did. And so Carti she
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: was famous on Instagram first and then went through Rallity TV.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: And then hip hop. So that kind of route I
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: think is an interesting one.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: It's also interesting to me that the line that has
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: been so prominent with women in hip hop, the line
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: between self exploitation and self expression. She doesn't walk it,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: she does not care. That to me is liberating. I
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: love that.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she will say what's on her mind and I
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: don't I think that is her brand, Like it's like
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: unpredictable but then authentic like, I think people want that
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: authenticity of you know, this is just someone who is
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: saying their thoughts unfiltered, and I think she really kind
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: of like made that cool and brought that fun wild,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: uncensored kind of unfiltered philosophy to wrap in a new way,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: even in a way that like men weren't doing because
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: there was no one like PARTI B before PARTI B.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: What do we miss as consumers and audience members when
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: we don't include women in the story of hip hop?
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: If you tell this story without mentioning some of those women,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I think it just leaves out some of the vision
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: that they've created. I think women have always made hip
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: hop interesting visually, you know, not to say they're just
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: a pretty picture, but they actually paint hip hop in
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: multi dimensions. And you know that's Missy Elliott and the
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: way that she envisioned music videos and you know, created
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: worlds Lauren Hill rapping, thinking about like you know, being pregnant.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Their trend setters in ways that I think should be acknowledged,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: whether that is Pardi kind of like changing the social
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: media game for every artist, and I think there's just
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: a certain flavor and just thinking about like Biggie without
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Kim is just not the same.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: It's not the full story. Thank you, Clover. Now it's
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: time to hear from a woman in hip hop right now.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Kierra Love just popped into our zoom, so we're gonna
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: go ahead and bring her in. Okay, So my Internet
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: crushes here. She is so talented and I'm not the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: only one who thinks so. She has one point three
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: million fans on Instagram, two point six million fans on TikTok,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and she has the real life hard skills to back
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: it up. Kara Love, You're putting Pennsylvania on the map.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: Yes, I'm just like doing my thing, and I guess,
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: like you know, a lot of people attract to it.
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: So it really shows and I'm grateful for it.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: What do you think they're attracted to?
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: Honestly, everything I put in my music is like less,
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: so it's kind of like teaching them. So I think
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: we're all attracted to learning, not even if it's just
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: about a person, but more so of like, oh, hey,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: I've been through that situation, so you know, this person
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: says that they coped with it like this, So more
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: so like that, I.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: Love to know, like how like Cardi B.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Or like kind of Megan or a couple of the
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: more recent like women maybe had any influence on like
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: your social media game.
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, like Carti especially, Like That's why it
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: was so exciting when she showed love to me too,
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: because it's like, I love the way she works and everything,
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: and it's just I love studying people, even not just artists,
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: but content creators and et cetera, because just from a
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: business aspect, I love to see, like, you know, what's
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: doing numbers, what's catching people's attention and things like that.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: So I definitely learned a lot from watching Cardi because
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: she doesn't just wrap. She's entertaining, you know, So it's
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: more so attracting more people when it's not just one thing,
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: it's multiple things.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Will you for people who don't know, will you share
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: the story of how Carti posted you. It's kind of
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: how you popped off on social initially, right right?
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So that really helped me a lot because I
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: would post freestyles like daily, like literally that was all
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: I was grinding off of was freestyles. And I had
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: freestyle over Cardi B's money, and she ended up actually
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: seeing it so once in it she showed love like
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: on Twitter, she liked it, but then she actually posted
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: it on Instagram. So once she did that, a lot
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: of people were attracted to it. A lot of people
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: were attracted to my page honestly. From there, it just
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: helped a major, a major, big step in my career
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: with music.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Did you study anybody? I heard you love? Lil Wayne? Yeah?
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Lil Wayne definitely, because I grew up off him. So
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: it's like kind of like watching someone studying just like
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: you feel like you know them, you know, because it's
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: like you grew up watching MTV Cribs and things like that,
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: and Lil Wayne's on all of that. So it was
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: like just like a big inspiration for me too.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: How much did you know kind of about like the
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: women from the eighties or kind of like the nineties,
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: you know, like growing up were you into kind of
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: like so I'm Papa or Queen Latifa? How did you
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: how did or if you weren't, how did you kind
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: of like learn about them or so kind of find.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: Out good question because like in my household, I come
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: from a where again in black household, so they don't
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: play a majority of things, like even Spanish music, not
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: just rap, and hip hop. You know. So my mom
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: listened to a lot of R and B, so like
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: a Shanty and Mariah Carey and all of them, Keisha Cole, everybody.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: So that's how I got introduced it through my mom
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: and just through hearing other people in the house play that.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: And what was your perception of women in hip hop
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: before you entered the game, and what's your perception like
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: now that you are one of the women in hip hop?
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: Well, growing up like the only woman in hip hop
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: was like Nicki Minaj, Missy Ellie, all of those people,
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: and it was like not a lot compared to the men,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: but they definitely like when they came on the camera
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: and they came on the TV, they made sure they
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: grabbed your attention. So I love like watching all of
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: that because watching like Missy Elliott, like I want to
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: dance all the time. I'm sitting here watching here and
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: Missy Elliott, I'm sitting here Tryinese dance moves in my room.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: So it was really like more so like I love
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: their music, but also like I love the culture. I
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: love what they're They're like the world they're giving to us.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: People forget that missive dances and she loves all like
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: she's like fall performer, entertainer, like songwriting, producing, dancing, rapping, singing,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: all that.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, How do you feel about women and hip hop
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: now that you are one of the women in hip hop?
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: I definitely am grateful that they're all Like I feel
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: like they're getting more recognition now, like more than before, because,
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: like I said, it was like very small amount of
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: people in the industry and stuff. But now it's like,
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: I feel like we're getting there, you know, like where
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: everything could be just like equal amount, not like, oh,
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: it's not really that many women, but it's a whole catalog,
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: you know, so.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: An action, right, like a range of bios and like personalities.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Does it still feel like a men's sport to you?
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: I want to say no, but I want to say yes.
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: It's kind of in the middle because like how I rap,
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: I feel like no female really raps like that. But
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: also I feel like the males could rap like that,
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: if that makes sense, Like I could hear a male
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: doing that because it's like gang but that's like what
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: we call normal because it's it was like, you know,
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: male dominated.
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: So that's kind of how my perspective is on it.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Interesting so did you try and when you were practicing
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: your flow, like I'm sure growing up you're in the mirror,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: just going one after another. You were kind of basing
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: it off of the men that you heard.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: Exactly, like even mimicking and just like you know, learning
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: from it because it's like that's what you see, that's
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: what you hear, So putting it in my own way,
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: that's so interesting.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Because it shows how when you have all the examples
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: of guys like that ends up being the inspiration. But
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: now we have so many more women who can be
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: like inspiration, like the Nikki's and like CARTI, who are
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: you know, offering a different perspective.
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: That's why I said too, like growing up watching Nikki
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: and stuff like that's that's inspiring because even for me
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: wanting to get into music is like okay, well her
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: as a female, she did that, So it's like why not.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Do you think there's a different expectation for like young
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: girls or rapping or like women in terms of like
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: image and how you're supposed to look.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: I feel like regardless of even outside of the industry
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: and things like that, like people are gonna say something,
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: People are always gonna want you to live up to
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: these expectations, and at the end of the day, like
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: what I love about each and every artist is that
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: they're their selves and that's why they we love them
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: because they're their selves. They're not doing this because because
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: you want them to or because anything.
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: It's because they're their selves.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: And that's what I love, especially about artists and especially females,
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: because of the judgment with bodies, and it's just it's
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: just like, you know, like it's corny to me because
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: it's like you shouldn't be that worried about somebody somebody.
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: Somebody being theirselves shouldn't bother you that much.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: That's part of the old soul that I that I
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: felt connected to when I first found you. Clover and
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I were talking earlier about how the movement of women's
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: rap has evolved and there's fashion and style is such
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: a part of it, and there's these different archetypes like
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: and Queen Latifah kind of brought like a more tomboy look,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: whereas well Kim was like super over sex. When you
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: think about kind of the archetypes of women in rap,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: do you feel like you're creating your own lane?
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: Definitely, I feel like you can't get in this game
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: and you can't be in the same lane as somebody.
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: You have to have your own lane because even if
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: you are, it's not gonna work out.
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: It's not for the long run. And we're definitely here
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: for the long run.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: So when's the first time you knew you could rap?
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: Honestly, when I started at fourteen, because before then I
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: never really tried it at all.
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: It wasn't something like, oh, yeah, I know I can
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: do that.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: It was kind of just like, let me just try
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: and figure this out and see if I can do that.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Who told you you could? How'd you know you were good?
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Because sometimes people singing and you're like, ooh nah.
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: Definitely.
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: Of course, the people around me definitely gave me constructive criticism.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: And like I said, like I was starting out, so
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: I wasn't expecting to be the best or any like that.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: I was expecting to, you know, learn and be able
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: to make music and do these things. And like I said,
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: I would post freestyles and videos all over my Instagram
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: and I really built my own fan base on there.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: So that really made me be like, oh, okay, you
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: are getting somewhere with this.
• 43:16
  Speaker 5: You're on the right path.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about how Party introduced this era of
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: that where you could kind of create a social media
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: presence and like your personality and bring.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: People to you.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: How do you think social media has helped women and
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: rap to kind of like either be more visible or
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: kind of like be able to kind of have their
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: own lane.
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: I think the Internet's definitely a big advantage to everybody,
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: especially in the time that we're in now, just because
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: we never had this before, you know, so it's infinite opportunities,
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: it's infinite things that could happen. You can never say,
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: you know, anything's impossible, because just like you know, thousands
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: of years ago, I'm pretty sure they thought the internet possible.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: So the rate and speed that everything can be shared
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: on the Internet definitely helps a lot, because one video
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: could change your whole life one video.
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: You never know, you could.
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: Be one upload away from everything changing, and you take
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: it seriously.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Like I've heard you talk about the way you approach
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: your TikTok. You said during quarantine that you couldn't perform
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: or leave the house release, so you were like, I'm
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: going to double down on TikTok and make this happen,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: and you did. You grew insane amounts.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that definitely was a big thing for me because
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: it's like that's kind of another example of like, hey,
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: I want to see if I can do this. It's like, hey,
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: I want to see if I can figure this TikTok
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: thing out. If I can you know, grab the attention
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: and also be myself and honestly, just getting the hang
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: of it and everything was amazing because, like I said,
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: TikTok is a beautiful example of how everything gets shared
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: at so fast speed and it's so wild, like you
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: never know who could just see you on their timeline.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: You have this amazing spirit of can do like you
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: truly believe it yourself in the most amazing way. Did
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: that was that always in you? Or where did that
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: come from?
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: This music definitely helped me a lot with this because
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: it helped me boost my confidence, boosts my you know,
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: it helped me learn because throughout all of these like
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: struggles and everything, I realize, like all of it's just
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: making me better. At the end of the day, everything's
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: making us better. So I definitely learned a lot from it.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: What did you say, it's one thing that you've learned
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: from like a peer, like one of your kind of
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: like female rap peers.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: That's a great question.
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: I think I definitely learned to.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: Like I said, there's a subtle art of not giving
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: a fuck. Literally, like I read the book and everything,
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: and it makes so much sense because it's like these people,
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: once you realize you care too much about what they're thinking,
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: what they're doing, and et cetera, And once you learn
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: that none of that matters, that's proof that you know,
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: anything can happen, and it's proof that abundance is on
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: their side. Like literally just watching especially growing up and
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: watching like and everything in bad videos of celebrities popping
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: up and things like that. But it's like, at the
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: end of the day, people have their moments and people
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: do their things, you know. So this definitely was like
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: a lesson Kira.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: When the world opens up, where am I gonna see you?
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: What's what's happening in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: for you.
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: Listen, I don't be everywhere When the world opens up.
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: Literally, it's like it's like, now, what's your reason and
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: not going and being traveling and everywhere?
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: There's no reason. Now you have to find a way.
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: So I'm gonna definitely be everywhere making sure everybody voment
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: to me.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: I didn't even ask you. Will you tell everybody how
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: old you are? Yeah?
• 46:40
  Speaker 5: I'm nineteen. I actually just turned nineteen February six.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: And you've been wrapping for how long?
• 46:46
  Speaker 5: Since I was fourteen?
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: It's a long time. When you know you got the juice,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: you got the juice? Okay, So I always do five
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: closing questions. Will you play along with me?
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: Yep?
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Okay? Number one? I know you love books, and I
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: love books too. I love your love of reading. What's
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: one book everybody needs to read?
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: Oh? Thinking gro Rich?
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Good one? Napoleon? Hell yeah, one underrated rap legend, someone
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: who deserves more kudos than they're getting.
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: I definitely feel like Roddy Rich, like what he's doing
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: at a young age is just insane. Like he no
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: like he's the definition of arts. The way he just
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: constructs his music is crazy.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: It's true. Okay, I do a PSQ. So the podcast
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: is called pretty Smart, So we do a pretty smart
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: question and I picked I have fifty two. I picked
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: one randomly. The one you got was tell me something
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: about yourself that is one hundred percent true, but sounds
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: made up.
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: I don't speak Spanish. Do I look like I speak Spanish?
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Well, you said you're Puerto Rican, you don't speak Spanish.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: No.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: You can also brag how many streams do you get?
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: It sounds made up. Probably the number is so big.
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: Like like one point two mil I have on songs
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: five hundred thousand streams right now because also two I
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: am independent, so like I'm learning how to you know,
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: do the playlisting and things like that, basically things that
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: the label would usually do.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: So it's so much work. People have no idea everything
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: that you're doing right now.
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: But it's all worth it, so trust me, it's literally
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: all worth it.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: What is the smartest decision you've ever made.
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: To start reading these books?
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: Honestly because I learned a lot from it just from
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: a mind perspective, and also like I feel like once
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: I learned something, it starts popping up in my life
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: more so.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: I agree with you. So grateful for your time and
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: your spirit. Thank you, Kiara, Thank you appreciate it. Clover,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: will you tell me real quick where everyone can get
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: your book?
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: You can buy my book anywhere books are sold, Amazon,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore. You can buy anywhere
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: and can follow me at Clovy show dlov i O
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you Clover.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: You can grab Clover book one hundred plus Women who
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: made Hip Hop Anywhere. Books are sold Barnes and Nobles, Amazon, etc.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: And follow her at Clovy two on Instagram and Kiera love.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Because of legal reasons, we're not allowed to play her music,
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: so you have to go follow her on Instagram and listen.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: She is so talented.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: K I E R R l U B.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I love that girl. Listening to Clover and Kiera, all
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: I can think about is the idea of passing the baton.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Each woman in hip hop moved the needle a little
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: bit more for the next one. Not all of them
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: even got to fulfill their potential, but they made it
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: possible for others to do so. And they all had
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: very different variations in style, lyrics, flow, But what each
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: of them had in common was a fiercely independent voice
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: and the power to be unmistakably herself. How can we
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: all take a piece of that and apply it to
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: our own life? How can you be a little bit
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: more unapologetically you today? Who knows by doing so you
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: might be making space for the woman right behind you.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Today's a good day. To have a good day and
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: see you next week.