Latest / Celeste The Therapist / Ep 465 Navigating Relationship Challenges w/ Jeff Rogers

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Ep 465 Navigating Relationship Challenges w/ Jeff Rogers · Celeste The Therapist

0:17
All right. Hey, hey, hey, beautiful people. If you're
0:21
watching me on the replay, let me just make sure I'm on the mic. I'm not on the
0:24
mic. When I go to edit, I'll be annoyed. that
0:28
I wasn't on the mic. All right, I'm on the mic now. So hey,
0:31
if you're watching the replay, thank you so much for watching me. My name is
0:35
Celeste. I'm a therapist from Boston. And
0:39
if you haven't heard of my podcast, I get to come on and talk to amazing
0:42
people. I also do lives where I
0:46
give out valuable information about life and
0:50
people kind of chime in and give examples or
0:54
talk about the things that they're going through as well. But one
0:58
of my favorite things to talk about is relationships. And
1:03
the way that I talk about relationships is I have
1:07
an executive coach, Jeff Rogers, come on to
1:11
talk with me, and I'm going to add him to the stream. Hey,
1:24
OK. Oh, wow. I'm sorry. I must be the last on
1:32
Oh, okay. Okay. Oh, thank you for allowing me and my podcast to
1:35
be part of your life. Um, so we have,
1:39
uh, two questions today, relationship questions. Um,
1:43
I didn't get any questions, um, individually. Like I really
1:47
love questions when it comes to relationships with somebody's self. Um,
1:50
first I need you to tell people like who you are and, um,
1:55
Yeah. So I'm an executive coach, trainer, facilitator,
1:59
all those things. And really what that means, when
2:02
you say an executive coach, people look at you like, is that real? Because
2:07
it does sound fake. But what it is is I help people get
2:11
out their own way. I help folks. There's things that
2:14
you want to do where you find that it's you that's blocking you. Sometimes you
2:17
think it's other people that's blocking you. Oftentimes, at the base, what you find out
2:21
is something you're doing is permitting people to
2:24
block you or letting people block you. Or maybe you look
2:27
at it like they're blocking you because of how you're looking at it. So in the end, it's
2:30
about helping people find what they need in
2:34
themselves, It could be executives. It could be leaders
2:38
in an organization. It could be whoever in life. Find a
2:42
way to get out your own way and stop doing that
2:45
thing that stops you from being the you that you want to be, but you won't let you
2:50
Well, just for clarity, because
2:54
we're always with ourselves all the time. And you say you stop people from
2:57
getting out of their own way. But how do people not realize they're in their own
3:04
Well, that's the problem. You're always with yourself. And so people,
3:07
for example, in a relationship, someone says, why do I always get
3:11
men that? Men that do X. I
3:14
say, that's interesting. Do you think all men do X? They say, no. I know
3:18
a lot of men don't do X. But you, again and again, you end up
3:21
with a man that does X. Is that right? They say, yeah. I go, hmm. So
3:24
who picks your men for you? And now we see how you
3:28
might be in your own way, even though the man that does X might be wrong for doing X.
3:32
But you are the picker. Right? Or
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how do I always end up? How come at my job it always ends up where
3:39
I'm fighting with my boss? Or how come every assistant
3:43
I have always quits? Oh, I see.
3:47
So you fall into these patterns and you're trying to figure out how
3:50
to keep the best of you while losing the part of you that's causing you to
3:53
fall into these patterns again and again and again and again and
3:57
again. Why do I always have this same argument with my parents? We've
4:00
been having the same argument for years. Have you? Very interesting. I
4:06
So for people listening that may be hearing for the first time that there's
4:10
a possibility I might be in my own way, is it something that just can
4:13
take place overnight? Or is it a process, do
4:18
Well, first of all, everyone listening, it's almost certain that
4:21
you're in your own way in some way. That's almost a guarantee, right?
4:25
But the thing is, oftentimes these
4:29
patterns, people sometimes think of attributes as good or bad. But
4:32
a more useful way to think of them is failure modes. Failure
4:36
modes are the ways that the thing that you do that oftentimes works for you,
4:40
sometimes it doesn't work. So an easy thing, it might be that Celeste,
4:44
I'm just going to say this, because you pick to be a therapist as a
4:47
life calling. and you do it all day, maybe you
4:51
default to therapy mode all the time when you're talking to people, right? And
4:54
you say, oh, how does that make you feel? That must be tough. And have you looked inside?
4:58
And most of the time, that's good, and that's why people like you. But sometimes it might
5:01
be time to say, don't do that with your contractor. With your contractor, you
5:04
need to say, sir, you said that this would be done by Friday. It's now
5:08
Tuesday, right? It's not your job to therapize the
5:11
contractor. Celeste, we've never talked about this before, but does that happen to
5:15
Yeah, it was in my relationship. My husband tells me I'm not his therapist all
5:19
There you go. And you're the wife here. So don't therapize me.
5:23
Yes, it's good that you're a therapist. But when you say,
5:27
husband, when you're looking at it this way and that way, how do you feel? No, no,
5:31
no. I'll have a different therapist if I want a therapist. You just be
5:39
Exactly. Exactly. That's what getting in your own way. But we
5:42
all have that. We all have that. And so your
5:46
failure mode is the way that, oftentimes, it's your strength.
5:49
When it fails, what does it look like? And so that's how people get stuck in these
5:53
patterns, because it works enough that
5:57
they keep on getting so much positive feedback that they're not willing to change it,
6:01
because it does work sometimes. For example, drug
6:04
addicts, people who struggle with drug addiction, at
6:09
first, they want to feel great. They take the drug. They do feel great. And
6:13
slowly but surely, they only feel great sometimes. But I mean, sometimes
6:16
they do feel great. And I do like feeling great. And then now, they mostly feel
6:20
bad. And the drug is just a reprieve from feeling bad. In
6:23
other words, if I don't do heroin, it's like I'll get the flu in six months. But
6:27
if I do it, I'll just feel neutral. But hey, it's more neutral than the flu.
6:30
And that's how you get least bad. And that's how you end up living on mass and cast.
6:34
Yeah. And then another example, uh, I have people who
6:37
say they work well under pressure and, uh,
6:41
I, I said, how does that feel until you get to that point? Um, but
6:45
they've been rewarded because they push out good work under pressure. So
6:48
they assume that they get you. Does that have, have
6:53
So what it is is the discipline to do your, your, your,
6:57
uh, your thesis is due on Friday. Right.
7:01
And it's Monday and you've been thinking about it and frankly, dreading it. But,
7:05
you know, you've been putting it off and putting it off for whatever reason. And
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then Thursday rolls around. And now there's so much
7:11
pressure built up that you can use it to make you fly and do all the work the
7:14
way when you let go of a balloon, it flies all over the room. But
7:18
that's a chaotic process. And I wonder, is that the best possible thesis
7:21
you could have had? Is it really better than if you'd have worked on
7:25
it a little bit every day for a month? Is it really better? Is it really
7:28
better to do it that way? Right? Maybe you think it
7:31
is, but more than likely, you simply haven't learned the way to do something
7:36
gradually and without the feeling of urgency that comes from,
7:40
I'm about to fucking not succeed at all. That's
7:44
the way to be in your own way. Celeste, I
7:49
You can, I was on mute. These are the things as an executive coach
7:53
that you kind of do, cause it sounds like you're like a mirror. You
7:57
hear them and then, you know, a lot of things, you're very smart.
8:00
I know that, but you're not saying anything that's rocket science
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when you're talking back to people. Um, and so, yeah, yeah.
8:08
It's understanding the various ways and helping
8:12
people to identify the various ways in which the things
8:15
that you're doing are contributing to falling short of
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where you want to be. I'm not the judge. Maybe you like being
8:22
late all the time. I guess you could. And if so, then keep it
8:25
up. Great job. But if you want to be punctual, but you keep on
8:28
being late, well, let's examine how that's happening.
8:34
In leadership, I work with CEOs and executive directors
8:38
and boards and stuff like that who, they're smart people too. Somehow
8:43
they're in these patterns. And if we can only evaluate it
8:46
and figure out, is there any intervention we could do that would maybe have
8:54
All right. Well, we're going to get it. I wanted to just
8:58
start with two. I mean, I just wanted to start with a
9:01
question about individual, like
9:04
your individual relationship, because that's always important to me because I have two questions
9:08
about relationships. So I'm going to start with the first
9:11
one. So it says, I get along really
9:15
well with my partner. We have been together for five years, but
9:18
I am having a hard time because my parents do not like him.
9:23
In their defense, there was some infidelity in my relationship by my
9:26
partner. We were able to work on our relationship, and
9:30
I have moved past it. I want to have a conversation with them
9:39
So this is a tough thing, and people are familiar with
9:42
this, right? So here's what happens. You're dating somebody, and then
9:46
they mess up big time. And you call your friends, and
9:49
you vent. And they are listening to you. And you're going,
9:53
I can't believe that person did that thing. And they're so bad. And they're going,
9:56
mm-mm, yes, they are bad. They are so bad. And I've always thought
9:59
that you were too good for them, or whatever they say. And then you get back together in
10:03
four days. And now it's super duper awkward. because they
10:06
said all this negative stuff and you done told
10:09
them every bad thing that this mate does. And now you're back
10:13
together. And I guess you have to pretend like that didn't happen. Now, here's the
10:16
thing. It's easier for you to get over it, the person in
10:19
the relationship, because you already have that strong
10:23
feeling which the family doesn't have. And
10:27
you are there for all the good things, right? When the mate Whatever.
10:31
When they go to the store without even asking, they know exactly what you wanted. Oh, you got
10:35
my favorite candy. Everyone knows my favorite candy is Almond Joy. And
10:38
you knew that, baby. You love me so much. They're not getting Almond
10:42
Joys. All they know is this person that you brought to Thanksgiving is
10:46
cheating on you. And so I'll never forgive them. So
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this is the big challenge, which is if
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you choose to divulge stuff like that, keep that in mind, that
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they're not there for the mind-blowing sex. They're only there for what
10:59
you tell them. An analogy might be, you have
11:04
a pet bear, and you love this bear, and you cuddle with it, and it
11:07
does tricks. And then one day, it mauls you. It gives
11:10
you a big bite, and you need stitches. Your family isn't there
11:14
to cuddle the bear. All they know is that you have this dangerous thing,
11:17
and it hurt you. And I don't like it anymore. They don't have those good feelings
11:20
towards the bear that you have. So that
11:24
being said, how can you start the conversation? Will you tell me what you think about this, Celeste? I
11:29
think this is a good opportunity without the mate there. So you
11:32
don't bring them with you. You're going to say, hey, I want to talk to you about something. I
11:37
love how supportive y'all are of me. And I know y'all are very protective
11:40
of me. And that's good because everyone does not have that. That being
11:44
said, I'm staying
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with this person. I divulged
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to you that they were unfaithful or they were negative in the following ways.
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I told you that because I trusted you. And you haven't betrayed that trust.
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But now there's a challenge. We're back together. And
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sometimes I feel like you're holding a grudge against the person. What do
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you think about that? I feel like that. They might say, oh,
12:08
what are you talking about? But there's a real chance that they'll say, yeah,
12:12
I do, because I don't forgive. And you say, you know what? In
12:16
the end, I can't control your feelings. But I
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wonder if you can try to
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basically trust me to give this person a chance. So in
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other words, do me a favor. You don't
12:30
have to change your innermost feelings. But obviously, don't be rude or
12:34
aggressive. But also, don't be passive aggressive. I know
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it's coming from a place of protection of me. But I'm choosing them.
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And we all choose our own mate. And so that's what I hope. What
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I love that. That's the direction I would go. Cause you're acknowledging you understand why,
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um, that is happening. So, um,
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it doesn't seem like this person's angry with their parents for how they feel. They
12:56
understand why. Um, I do, you know, one of the things when I'm
12:59
working with people and I hear stuff like with the partner and, and
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I'll be like, did you tell anybody? I'll be like, I'd be bracing,
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because it's like, unless you're ready to leave this person, please don't
13:10
open your mouth. But again, it's hard, right?
13:14
Because everybody don't have a
13:17
therapist. But even if you have a therapist, they're not on call 24-7. You
13:22
got to get it out somehow. So, you know, what would you say to people like,
13:26
um, that may have stuff that they
13:30
go through that puts their partner in a bad light. And
13:34
instead of venting to a part of
13:38
a friend or a parent, especially if you're, you're
13:41
staying with them, what could they do? Because they don't realize they're creating the
13:44
wedge where they're not. And every relationship goes through things.
13:48
Right. And at the end of the day, your friend, your parent. whoever
13:52
it is, it's going to want to have your back. They're not neutral in
13:59
Some people can be right. I think, uh, like
14:03
you said, that the therapist isn't necessarily on call. Even when you
14:07
go to see them, that's whatever it is. An hour, an hour a week, an hour, every two
14:10
weeks, uh, people oftentimes need to process out
14:14
loud. And so I think it's about,
14:18
to some degree, laying down the boundaries with that natural
14:22
support, with that parent, with that friend, where you say, listen, at
14:26
a certain point, you have to talk. And you say, if they don't do it naturally, you
14:30
say, yo, I know you're protective of me. I know that. So
14:34
it's coming from a good place. Don't be in denial. You don't know Derek.
14:37
He's amazing. You just don't know, because it's nothing to
14:40
be mad about exactly, because they're doing You
14:44
said, this person hurt me. And they said, I don't like people that hurt you. Then you say, on
14:48
second thought, I'm going to sleep in the same bed with them every night. Then
14:51
you say, but you said that they hurt you. I'm
14:54
having trouble switching gears. The real thing is to say, I don't necessarily want
14:58
you to change your mind about them. But if you trusted me before, trust me
15:01
now to make this decision. And consider
15:05
sometimes it depends on the infraction, because
15:09
the same thing, but this person is hitting you. And
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suddenly, I'm on the other people's side, I'm on
15:15
the side. And I say, perhaps
15:18
they have better perspective than you. Infidelity is more
15:23
complicated, where sometimes it's forgiven, sometimes it's not. Everything
15:30
That's a great point. And you know, if there's domestic violence
15:34
happening for the, especially for the other party listening, it's
15:37
really hard to be neutral, but. you know,
15:41
coming at it from an angle of, well, how does it make you feel?
15:44
How is that helping you? Try not to alienate them, which is hard, especially
15:49
if there's like a partner that may be narcissist and you're talking down
15:53
about them. It kind of puts a wedge, but that's
15:56
actually a great point. And also, you know, I want to
15:59
make a point that if you, some people have people
16:03
in their lives that can be neutral and they have some people that are always going
16:06
to be like on your side, not look at the whole picture. So
16:10
be mindful of those people that aren't asking you questions about, well,
16:13
you know, what was your part in the situation? Um, I'm talking about
16:17
outside of domestic violence, but what role did you, you know, making
16:20
you use reflective questions and, and if they're not doing that and they're always
16:24
just on your side, be mindful because you know, you're
16:31
Well, we all know too, you call people for different stuff. So there's some, you know
16:34
how you have like club friends who like that's all to
16:38
go out and have fun with. Then you have other friends that they don't even like going out.
16:41
That's not what you do. Instead, every once in a while you go over there or they come
16:44
over to your house or you just talk on the phone and don't even hang out in person or
16:47
whatever it is. So you know
16:51
that you have people in your life who you talk over problems with
16:54
and come to solutions. If you're lucky, you have people like that.
16:58
And you also have people that always just say, Celeste, you are perfect, and you always have
17:02
Right, right. And you can imagine what kind of friend I am.
17:07
My friends will not call me because they already
17:14
I face the same thing. I've heard people say I've heard
17:17
people say like I'm you know I don't want to talk to Jeff and have this guy analyze
17:21
me. I said damn But they're not wrong.
17:24
That is what I'm not different with this that listens and goes like They're
17:28
wrong and you are right. Yeah, I
17:32
Don't have it in could I be like well now, you know what you you know what
17:37
You did that to me. So I don't look like you. They
17:43
So consider that. All
17:47
right. So that was a good one. And I hope
17:51
this was helpful for somebody, because I know a lot of people are in this situation.
17:55
And I did want to give an opportunity for
18:00
people who may have the situation to
18:04
think about it differently. Because some people will get mad
18:07
at the parent or the friend that doesn't like their partner, not
18:13
There's one more, there's one more thing I'll say. You could say to them, um,
18:16
you say, listen, and I know this is hard in the future. Like
18:20
I talked to you about this cause I trust you. And again, you haven't betrayed that trust, but
18:24
it could be that you say they could set a boundary and say, Hey, from
18:27
now on, don't tell me nothing like this because I can't let it go as easily as
18:30
you can. They could say, and if they did do
18:34
that, you know what I mean? Don't be like, I just need to talk to you. If that's not,
18:38
if, If you know you're going
18:41
to rock it back and forth or whatever it is, or you think you might get back
18:45
after all, then don't tell them things that's going to basically the phrase is poison the
18:48
well. Right. Don't don't poison the
18:56
You are so right. You know what? This next question is
18:59
so long. I want to put it on the screen. I'll read
19:04
it out. Oh, OK.
19:07
You'll read it out, and I'm going to put it on the screen. I just want to say for people writing in,
19:11
I appreciate it. Me and Jeff joke around when questions are
19:14
long, but I do appreciate context. It
19:19
But I just want to answer a question. They just go, how do I love
19:23
myself? And I say, that's pretty big. So we'll
19:31
Yeah. I was with my ex for nine years. To keep it short, he's
19:34
done a lot of things disrespectful to me in which, to my knowledge,
19:38
I have caught most of the things that has caused damage to our relationship. We've
19:43
been separated for almost two years. And before we broke up, I asked him to seek therapy.
19:47
I was in therapy myself prior to the breakup. Because he has deeper trauma and
19:50
family dynamics that may or may not have contributed to his inability to
19:53
want to advance the relationship within those 11 years. She
19:58
said nine, then she said 11. Uh, he's doing therapy
20:01
now three months in and is still telling me he has changed He wants
20:04
to show me these changes wants to move back in Always question if there's
20:08
someone else and if i've moved on because he needs reassurance that he's working
20:11
on himself With the hopes that the end result of us being together again
20:15
a lot of these questions A lot of these questions and when he
20:19
expressed himself, it was more like a guilt trip than anything I
20:22
know I can't prematurely go back into a relationship as he needs to That's all
20:29
Oh, sorry. Let me see. It was so long. I
20:35
cannot prematurely go back into a relationship as he
20:39
needs to continue to do the inner work for himself. I
20:42
guess my question is, how do I know, navigate
20:46
whether the damage has been done and I truly cannot forgive
20:50
him for it or if there is something specific I
20:53
am looking for to try to make things work again because
20:57
I truly don't know how to navigate and I
21:00
know a lot of it is fear of starting over
21:03
and being wrong about what I once thought was right. I
21:07
get overwhelmed at often at the thought of if
21:11
I need to stop beating a dead horse or if this is
21:17
Yeah, my dead horse to keep I like I like someone who leads with analogies like
21:25
All right, that is your thing So let's talk about
21:28
something. We probably talked about it here before but we talk about fear of starting over.
21:32
Sorry Can you just sum up really quick what you heard
21:37
So what she's saying is that she had a
21:41
man that they were together for somewhere between 9 and 11 years I He
21:46
did a lot of disrespectful things, so they had, from her perspective, a
21:49
toxic relationship. And at one point, they lived together. Finally, she said,
21:52
get out. And you need therapy, and this is not good. He's
21:57
out now, and he's in therapy. And he's saying
22:00
a lot of things. He's saying, baby, I'm cured, or I'm so close to cured. Is
22:04
that enough? Can I come back? And also, he's
22:07
saying, you're not messing with no one else, right? You
22:11
wasn't just trying to mess with other people, was you? Because you wouldn't do that. You're not doing
22:14
that, are you? Because I'm out here working on myself, and I know you wouldn't do that to
22:17
me, because you would never betray me like that. And so
22:20
she's saying, I feel responsible for
22:24
him. Or he's trying to make me feel guilty or responsible and
22:28
it seems she's worried that he's not really in there. He's just trying to
22:32
placate her to pacify her right that he wouldn't be doing this
22:35
except for as a way to get back together. And
22:38
so she's saying basically should I give up on this or not? Am I beating a dead horse?
22:42
Meaning am I doing something that? Is
22:46
it's it's already over and I'm just I'm saying like wake up horse, but
22:49
the horse is dead. There's nothing to do or. Is
22:53
this a good thing? Are we on the path? Let's
22:58
talk about two things. Let's talk about the sunk cost fallacy. I'm sure I've talked
23:02
about it on here before. But the sunk cost fallacy,
23:07
the analogy or the aphorism for it in American
23:10
life is don't throw good money after bad. This
23:14
is the idea that you
23:17
keep on investing in something that's not working, Because if
23:21
I stop, then I wasted all my prior investment. That's
23:25
a sunk cost. So if your car
23:29
needs a fix, it needs new brakes and new rotors, you spend $2,000 on
23:33
that. When you're driving it off the lot, suddenly
23:36
the engine catches fire. They want to total it, but you say,
23:40
no, no, no, no, no. Let me just fix it. Because in your mind, you go, if
23:43
I total it, then I wasted all my money on those brakes and
23:47
rotors. I wasted my money. So
23:50
I have to fix it so that that wasn't a waste. Well, that's
23:53
not how that works, right? Once the money's gone, it's gone. And
23:57
you cannot post hoc justify it one way or the other. This
24:00
is, people are very susceptible to this. The Vietnam War is a famous sunk cost. Vietnam
24:04
was going very bad. Tens of thousands of Americans dead. We're not
24:07
making any progress at all. But three American presidents said the same
24:11
thing. They said, if I pull out now, all
24:14
those boys died for nothing. No, that's not true.
24:17
They're dead whether you pull out or not. The question is, are American boys going
24:21
to die tomorrow? Right? That's the
24:24
question you have, President. But they were stuck in sunk cost. I
24:27
don't want to be the one that calls this a loss. Gamblers do
24:30
this. Right. They play in blackjack and
24:34
it's going bad and they've already lost all their money. And then they maxed out their cash
24:37
advance. And they say, well, if I give up now, I
24:40
lost all that for nothing. But like if I see this through, eventually I'll win or
24:43
whatever it is. Of course, casinos are built on the fact that
24:46
people do this. Casinos would not be these big, luxurious places with
24:50
free watery drinks if playing long enough got you your
24:53
money back. So why do I say all this? Because
24:57
the question is, right now, letter writer, you're factoring
25:00
in those 11 years. But I don't think you should. I don't
25:04
think the 11 years have anything to do with whether this person is a good mate for
25:07
you today or not. Because if they're good or not good, the
25:10
11 years is already spent, and it's not coming back. It's even harder to get back time than
25:14
money. You could maybe get back money, but you could never get back time. So
25:18
the question is not, did I waste 11 years? OK,
25:21
we can't comment on that. The question is, is
25:25
this person a suitable mate for you today? Are
25:28
they a suitable mate for you today? Well, let's see. You
25:31
don't seem to trust them when they say, I'm going to therapy. I'm
25:34
healing myself. You seem to suspect that they're only going to placate
25:38
you. They've been going for three months, which if they go
25:42
twice a month, that's six sessions. It's very
25:46
common to go once a month. So it's somewhere between three and six sessions. All
25:50
right? I guess they could go weekly. But let's say, OK, even if
25:53
it's weekly, even if it's weekly, they've gone to 12 therapy
25:57
sessions. OK, they've been disrespecting you for
26:01
11 years, according to yourself. And
26:04
when you talk to them, they don't feel healed or accountable. You say that
26:08
they're saying things that make you feel guilty. Like, oh,
26:11
I'm doing all this, and you better not be banging no one else. As if
26:15
this was, even now, they suspect that they weren't really doing anything
26:18
wrong. Really, this might be a trick by you to pretend
26:21
that I was doing something wrong. But really, you just want another man. And so I'm
26:25
going to check up on you and police you. Does that sound like somebody who
26:35
I wouldn't say someone that's on the cusp of being healed. I
26:40
do want to point out that it sounds like
26:43
they've been broken up for two
26:47
years and the therapy recently started about,
26:53
the therapy started about, let me just take
26:56
the comments off. Um, the therapy started
27:00
about, uh, three months ago. Right. Um,
27:04
so whatever happened, it was so bad that
27:07
you moved out and you've been out of the apartment for
27:11
two years. That's a long time. Um, I
27:15
know sometimes the damage is so bad that
27:18
it's hard. You can forgive somebody, but maybe not forget. And
27:21
the fact that I think this person is writing
27:25
in, there's still so much that you
27:29
may be holding onto, right? So my thing
27:32
is I would think about asking myself reflective questions. Because
27:37
let's say this person has change and you are struggling with letting it
27:40
go. That would be a hard relationship to
27:44
be in if you don't think you can let the stuff
27:48
go. And I want to say with therapy, because a lot of people, just
27:51
for my listeners, a lot of people will throw therapy in a partner's face.
27:56
wanting them to go so they can change. Therapy only works if people are
28:00
ready and willing to take accountability, which isn't
28:04
always the case. And it depends on if they find
28:07
the right fit, and it depends on what they're saying, right? So
28:10
I don't want people to look at therapy as this magic fix either.
28:15
Think about what you've been doing these last two years, how you've
28:18
been working on healing, Um, because I know sometimes,
28:23
um, that I, you know, I haven't dated in years, but I know the dating world
28:27
is hard. Um, and sometimes, uh, people prefer
28:31
to go back to the devil. They know then, uh,
28:34
the one that. they don't know or the one that's been
28:38
hard. So I'm sure that's a factor in some
28:42
of your contemplation right now is if you've been
28:45
out for two years and if you've been dating, it's probably been hard. But
28:49
I definitely would work on asking myself reflective questions because
28:55
people don't know what they have until it's gone. And it sounds like you've
28:58
been out the house for two years and now, three months, for
29:03
the last three months, they've decided to go and work on themselves. But what
29:06
have they been doing for the last year and seven in the
29:09
math year and nine months? What
29:14
Thank you. Thank you for catching me and my I somehow glossed over
29:17
the fact that they've been separated for two years. The what
29:21
I think is that you're exactly right. And moreover, I think that a
29:25
big challenge is If
29:29
you were with this person for nine years, and they did a lot of things that disrespect me
29:32
in that time, and so forth, so on, and then you stayed for those nine years, is
29:36
there any work that you need to do that would make you not
29:40
susceptible to fall into that same pattern? You ever get the feeling maybe
29:43
you see your childhood bully, and when
29:47
you see them, you get a little flash of worry, even though we're not
29:50
in the schoolyard no more? Because you fall back
29:55
I remember this girl used to bully me, and I was a whole adult. I
29:58
seen her on the 28th. I was like 19. My
30:01
stomach dropped. She was such a
30:04
bully, but she didn't hit me, but she just used to bully me. I
30:11
Right. The whole, everything's totally different,
30:14
but you flash back. People get around, the people, you
30:17
know, they leave their home country or home region for 10 years,
30:21
then they go back and they slip right back into the accent, right? Without even,
30:24
then they can't shake it for a few days because you fall into these
30:28
patterns. And so, These
30:32
dynamics are not so easy that it's as if it's foolish
30:35
to think that the only person that had any growing or change to do
30:39
is the other person. That's a foolish way to look at it. Almost
30:42
certainly, you fit together in such a way that, at least at
30:46
that time, wasn't good for either of you. So the question is, can
30:49
you reshape it so that you both fit back together very well? If
30:53
so, it takes two people's full commitment. And nobody could be
30:56
like, if he keeps going, is this enough? Is this enough? Is
30:59
this what you wanted? Is this a good God? How much more can
31:02
I do? I agree with you. It's
31:07
very important that this person is fixing themselves because they want to
31:10
be whole themselves, not because they're trying to find what's the
31:13
least I can do that you will give me back
31:17
my key. Because that's not the recipe of
31:20
someone who's going to keep this up. You know what I mean? Imagine, let's
31:23
make it very simple. Imagine he was quitting cigarettes, because
31:26
you just said, I got emphysema, and you can't, oh, I got asthma,
31:30
and I can't be around cigarette smokers. And so he goes, fine, I'll quit cigarettes.
31:34
And then he goes, like, is this far enough from the window? Is this far enough from the
31:37
door? Is this just one? I'm just smoking them, like, constantly
31:41
trying to figure out how much secondhand smoke can you endure, right?
31:45
Whereas your goal is to be smoke-free. And
31:49
so that's, I'm not saying this person's evil. or
31:52
nothing like that. Maybe they don't want to do the changing. You
31:56
don't have to do nothing. You're not this person's judge
32:00
of whether they're good or not. You're only the judge of who you'll be with. Oh,
32:09
Celeste, you're muted. Still
32:20
OK. Sorry about that. A listener said, you can't get back time. One day
32:23
you look back and realize it's important to only allow people in your
32:26
life that treat you well. One way to test this is to
32:30
think, what would you say if this was happening to your daughter
32:33
or son? I like that, Ms. Grant. If it is not
32:36
okay for them, then it's not okay for you either. Also, if you do
32:39
have children, they are exposed to this and it will influence who
32:43
they end up with. Oh my God, you're giving me chills. These are the questions I'd be telling
32:46
people. I didn't even think about that. I'll be, cause people be quick
32:50
to be, cause, cause I know the part, yep. This ex partner is
32:53
coming on hard. They've been doing their thing for a year and how
32:56
many months, nine months, 10 months, nine months. And now they're like,
32:59
dang, let me go back to old girl, right? And they're
33:03
coming on hard. And now you're like, this is what I've always wanted. And
33:08
thinking about what would you tell your child if you have a child? Or even
33:11
if you don't have a child, think about your niece, nephew, or your best friend, somebody
33:15
that you really love. Would you be like, yeah, go back and do that thing with
33:20
I agree. Sometimes you need that perspective to say, would I
33:23
tolerate this for somebody that I love? Would
33:27
I tolerate this for somebody? When you make it
33:30
somebody else, because you feel at liberty to
33:34
discount yourself. Do you get what I mean? Let's say you
33:37
have, no, I say, Celeste, can
33:42
I borrow $1,000? You go like,
33:46
I don't know, maybe. You don't really want to, but I beg and I cry. Maybe you give it
33:49
to me. But you also have access to your daughter's college fund. I
33:52
say, Celeste, can I borrow $1,000 from your daughter's college fund?
33:56
It's so much easier to go, hell no, you can't. No,
34:00
you sound silly. Because basically, you're more willing to
34:03
cheat yourself than your daughter, right? And so
34:06
if you really want some perspective, switch it to somebody who you value the way, hopefully,
34:10
you should value yourself. But we often don't. So letter writer,
34:17
And I tell people all the time, we'll make appointments with
34:20
ourselves. We'll say we're going to do this gym workout. We're going to do this
34:25
class. And we'll cancel our appointments real quick. And
34:30
that happens all the time. And you're right. We're quicker to discount ourselves.
34:34
We will miss a meeting with ourselves, but not somebody else. So
34:38
those are some things you can think about. Me and Jeff can't tell
34:42
you what to do. I know it's hard. I wish there was a magic ball
34:45
where I could be like, if you do X, Y, and Z, and that's
34:48
the thing, I think, and the fear that you have. I
34:54
can't tell you. You can't tell you. But I think doing some reflection questions
34:57
with yourself. and not looking at it as time
35:01
lost that you're going to get back. Because I
35:05
know a lot of people think this way. This is a common situation
35:10
that I work with people on. And so I'm constantly asking
35:14
them reflective questions and the question that Ms. Grant asked.
35:18
Right. Here's one last thing I'll say. I'll go a little further
35:21
than Celeste will. I didn't hear a single thing that made me say, you
35:24
probably should get back together. I heard some things that sound like maybe one
35:28
day, and some things that sound like maybe never. So how about that?
35:32
Yeah, yeah, that's true. I didn't hear nothing either. It was more like, please. When
35:37
you discount yourself, it's typically because you have unhealed or not yet
35:40
recalled trauma. So you find yourself in the same one-sided,
35:44
over-giving, being used, manipulated, or abusive relationships. Yeah, that's
35:47
true. A lot of times, because this
35:50
is a great point, your introduction
35:54
to love, I have this amazing book by Bell
35:59
Hooks, if somebody's struggling with love, Bell Hooks has a book called
36:02
All About Love, where she discusses the
36:06
way that love has been introduced to us, whether
36:09
it's in our home in a negative way, TV, you know, and so you
36:15
don't realize that's your psyche. And so even if logically
36:19
you know that this relationship doesn't work because you stayed in it for nine years
36:22
and dealt with a lot, even if you know logically, it's
36:25
kind of like, why can't the logic and emotion match? And Jeff can
36:33
Well, it rarely matches because we
36:37
oftentimes make unexamined decisions based on what we feel
36:41
like. and then we rationalize or
36:44
we reason from the conclusion. So we say, well, I want to
36:47
do this. And then we find a justification. For example, you never wanted to
36:51
go to the gym. Then when you're going up the stairs, you stub your toe. And
36:54
then you say, oh, that's why I'm not going to the gym today. My toe
36:57
is a little sore. But you was never. You always just fishing for a
37:00
reason to not do what you didn't feel like doing. And so to some
37:04
degree, in the end, what Celeste and I, what makes our job exactly
37:07
the same is we can't tell people what to do. And
37:11
it's not even ethical to try. And we wouldn't dare try. But
37:14
I can tell you this, we can examine your decisions before you just make
37:18
them. We can say, well, what do you think you should do?
37:22
Well, what are you aiming at? Well, if you're aiming at this, if you really want
37:25
it, so what's your goal? In the gym example, I would say, well, tell me what your
37:28
goal is. Is your goal to make sure
37:32
that you're always totally rested? Or is your goal,
37:35
in this case, to be more fit? Be more fit. OK. So
37:39
if your goal is to be more fit, would you go to the gym or would
37:42
you stay home? Go to the gym. OK, so if
37:45
you choose, do you want to change goals? Because you could say, my goal is
37:48
to, I want to put on a little weight. You could say that. Is that what you say? No,
37:53
I want to lose weight. Then I go, all right. So then should you
37:56
go to the gym, or should you use your
37:59
toe to stay home? You tell me. I
38:03
can't make you, but just tell us. Instead of quickly going
38:07
like, aha, I found it, my toe hurts. I'm staying home, which is what people
38:10
very often do. I'm not
38:13
going to do them now, but there's all types of exercises we
38:17
could do where I could show you that I can make you make
38:20
an emotional decision and you won't even know why you made it. I'll say, well, why
38:23
do you believe this? And you won't even know. You know why? Because there's a part of you
38:27
that just goes, I don't feel like it. That sounds scary. That sounds bad. That
38:30
doesn't sound fun. And if you let those feelings
38:34
make decisions for you, you'll find that your life is chaos. That's
38:42
Really great point. These was really good. These
38:46
two was really good questions. And as you're
38:49
thinking about these two questions, did you notice any
38:53
theme in them? You know, I,
38:57
I think self-reflection, for anybody, whether you're
39:01
struggling, is just important to do on a general basis. Because what
39:04
Jeff said about emotions, I'm so big on emotions, because
39:08
unfortunately, people don't realize that they're dictating so much of what they're
39:12
choosing to do or not do. And if you can just work
39:15
on reflecting, asking yourself how you're feeling, the feeling's going to come. You can't help
39:19
it. but you can work on your action, right? And a lot of
39:22
people are making, people that are struggling with addictions, all
39:25
kinds of addictions, they're trying to get rid of pain that they're not acknowledging. And
39:29
I tell people, the more you try to stuff, try to ignore one
39:33
side of you, you're essentially not allowing yourself
39:37
to create joy as well. And that's something that
39:40
people don't realize, like you can never numb one part of you. And I
39:44
think the more you work on accepting that pain is a part of
39:47
life, as hard as it is, you know, there's
39:50
no rainbow without the rain. And
39:54
I think if you can like work on accepting that, you can
39:57
actually be more reflective so that you can face the pain that
40:03
I agree. I agree. And in both these questions,
40:07
a big aspect of it is the aftermath of when
40:11
a relationship went real wrong, can it ever be healed? Or is that like,
40:15
is it, is it, you know, stage four cancer? You know what I mean? It's just, it's
40:19
alive, but it won't be in this case. It's okay. I'm trying
40:22
to stay with this person, but the ramification in the first case, I'm trying
40:26
to stay with this person, but the ramification of what they did in the past echoes even
40:29
today. And how do I help move my family past it? And this one it's,
40:33
I'm not even past it. I'm not even sure the dude's trying to, I'm
40:36
not convinced that he's even thinks it was wrong. he
40:40
seems to just be saying like, you know, what do you, what do you, what hoop do I have to
40:43
jump through to go back to the way things were? And
40:47
it is true actually, that I think a
40:50
relationship, you can love somebody and the relationship take
40:54
a wound that the wound won't heal. I think that can
40:58
occur. And so the big challenge, how
41:01
do you know? Well, what gives it the best shot is have you done everything
41:05
you can do to heal the wound? But if it really won't heal, loving somebody
41:09
is not, just loving somebody is not enough to stay
41:12
with them. And I'll tell you what I mean. There are people that really
41:15
did, uh, love their mates and then they
41:19
kill them. That's the thing that happens where I know I'm, I'm
41:23
confident they really were in love. They really loved them and then they
41:26
killed. So it's not like love conquers all. It's not true. And
41:31
people that love their mates and they drag them
41:34
down with them and they ruin their life. Yeah. Right? So
41:38
you have to, you can't just say, well, if the love is there, then there
41:45
And I wanted you to tell people about your hella black trivia. But before I
41:49
say that, I just want to make a quick comment. I had a guy on my podcast. He
41:52
said he was married, and he was
41:57
DMing girls. And he broke his wife's trust.
42:01
And he said she kept throwing it in my face. And
42:04
he said he took accountability. But he said he ended up leaving her
42:08
because he realized she wasn't able to get past it. And
42:12
sometimes I think in relationships, really
42:16
being honest with yourself, it's okay. Like sometimes you may love that
42:19
person so much, but whatever was done, you're struggling
42:24
with it so much that you don't see yourself getting past it. Grieving
42:28
the relationship, because it's kind of like, you never thought you would get together
42:31
to break up. But if you feel like it's impeding with your
42:35
mental health, you got to let it go. And this guy,
42:38
he let it go because he realized how much he
42:44
If I can, if I can, I counseled somebody before
42:48
who, uh, they had a baby, a relationship,
42:53
a longstanding relationship. And then, uh, the guy had
42:56
a baby outside the relationship. It was kind of complicated, but in
42:59
the end he had a baby with someone other than her. Okay.
43:03
And we talked about it. I talked I have friends with
43:07
both of them. So I talked to her and I said, you know, you
43:10
are under no obligation to Stay
43:13
with stay with this person. You don't have to If
43:17
you do stay with them, the only way you can do that is
43:20
if you can let this go I know that sounds crazy to
43:23
say but be mad for a week But if you're gonna be as mad
43:26
as you are now if you're gonna be that mad from now on then you can't be with them And
43:30
that's the choice. I'm not telling you what's right or wrong, but if
43:34
you can really forgive them and put this in the past, they were like
43:37
on a break. You know what I mean? And then that
43:40
break resulted in a baby. But
43:44
all that matters is if you can get past it, do it. Yeah. Don't
43:47
do it. But the one the one thing that's not an option is stay together.
43:51
But you throw in their face. Sometimes you're laying in bed. Then you just look over and slap
43:54
them because you go, how could you do that to me two years ago? You
43:57
can't do that. That doesn't work. If if that's what it's going
44:02
Yeah. Yeah. It's not worth it. You know, I work with
44:05
a lot of people in your mental health. Think about your mental health. Don't think about
44:10
anything else but your mental health. Jeff, tell people about, you've
44:14
been doing a lot of these lately. I got to go to, I've
44:18
been to a few of them, but I went to the one recently, really
44:22
good, good time. I always say, I'm 40 plus. And
44:30
when I was in my 20s, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I was at the club. I
44:33
don't want to be standing around with drinks falling on me and hard music. So
44:38
for people in the Boston area, this is actually a
44:41
dope event. You actually can have fun. And it's usually somewhere where there's
44:44
food and drinks you can purchase. But tell people about
44:50
Yeah, at Sam Adams Brewery in
44:53
Boston, in Jamaica Plain. doing Hello Black Trivia. A
44:56
little side thing I do for fun is I host Black Trivia,
45:00
Trivia with Seasoning, we call it. And you come out, buy
45:04
tickets, come through. I'll be up there doing Black Trivia, talking
45:07
shit to you. On this flyer, they were supposed to Photoshop my
45:11
beard, all the grays out of my beard. They didn't, so I got to talk to
45:17
Your beard's getting really good. It looks really good and healthy. You're really working
45:26
All right, y'all. Thank you all so much for joining and rocking with us.
45:30
I really appreciate the love. If you scrolled
45:33
on here, you're new here, there is a podcast. Jeff and I have been
45:36
doing this for a few years now. On my website, you
45:40
can actually click on a link where it has all of our relationship podcasts
45:44
that you can watch. But I have tons of other kind of episodes that