Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Narcissism Expert Richard Grannon: Identifying, Exiting & Healing from Abusive Relationships

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Narcissism Expert Richard Grannon: Identifying, Exiting & Healing from Abusive Relationships · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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Speaker 1: to real conversations in a new language today. Welcome back
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Speaker 1: to Misunderstood. I'm Rachel Yucatel. I think we can all
1:01
Speaker 1: agree that narcissism has become the most overused word in
1:05
Speaker 1: the English language right now. I don't even think the
1:07
Speaker 1: people using it really understand what it means. And if
1:09
Speaker 1: you don't understand, how could you possibly stay away from
1:12
Speaker 1: or be on the lookout for, or even know if
1:15
Speaker 1: you possess any of the qualities that make a narcissist.
1:18
Speaker 1: Today's guest, Richard Grannon, is the perfect person to help
1:21
Speaker 1: us understand what narcissism really is. Richard is a life
1:25
Speaker 1: coach who specializes in narcissistic abuse and how to heal
1:28
Speaker 1: from trauma. He has a way of explaining complicated behavioral
1:31
Speaker 1: issues in such an easily digestible way. I knew I
1:35
Speaker 1: had to have him on the show. Richard helps break
1:37
Speaker 1: down where narcissism can start and really gives tips on
1:40
Speaker 1: how not only to deal with, but how to move
1:42
Speaker 1: on and heal from this behavior. I've dealt with plenty
1:45
Speaker 1: of narcissists on my own, and being gaslit can make
1:48
Speaker 1: you feel crazy. And that's the purpose, to make you
1:52
Speaker 1: question yourself. If you have ever felt this way, this
1:54
Speaker 1: is a must-listen episode for you. Richard has over 600,000
1:58
Speaker 1: subscribers on YouTube, hanging on his every word. I think
2:03
Speaker 1: you will be as well. Sit back and enjoy my
2:05
Speaker 1: episode and conversation with Richard Grannon. Richard, thank you so
2:41
Speaker 1: much for joining me from the UK. That's so exciting.
2:45
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me on. Pleasure to
2:47
Speaker 2: be here.
2:48
Speaker 1: So your platform is all about helping others defend themselves
2:52
Speaker 1: and get back on their feet from narcissistic abuse. I
2:55
Speaker 1: just wanted to find out first how you got on
2:57
Speaker 1: this path. What was your personal journey to doing this?
3:02
Speaker 2: Well, I... I.
3:06
Speaker 2: We sort of came across it by accident. The background
3:09
Speaker 2: that I had was in behavioral psychology and in neuro-linguistic programming,
3:14
Speaker 2: and we really didn't acknowledge personality disorders at all. So
3:19
Speaker 2: I do have some formal training in psychology, but nothing
3:21
Speaker 2: in personality disorders. It was considered esoteric and weird in
3:25
Speaker 2: the realm of psychoanalytic theory and Freud. And I was teaching,
3:31
Speaker 2: I was actually teaching self-defense. I was running a popular
3:34
Speaker 2: self-defense channel on YouTube. And then I started getting messages
3:38
Speaker 2: from the coaches, a lot of whom were ex-military, who
3:42
Speaker 2: were having problems with people pleasers. They were being people
3:47
Speaker 2: pleasers in their relationships. They didn't want to see what
3:50
Speaker 2: they would call a shrink. They thought I was okay
3:53
Speaker 2: because I trained and I boxed and stuff, so they're
3:55
Speaker 2: happy to talk to me. So we ended up talking
3:58
Speaker 2: about how to assert yourself and how to develop stronger boundaries.
4:04
Speaker 2: And you can't really push into that area without exploring
4:08
Speaker 2: and coming up against narcissism, narcissistic abuse. Finally, I caved
4:14
Speaker 2: to the requests from my client base who were like,
4:17
Speaker 2: you have to start talking about narcissism. And when I
4:19
Speaker 2: actually investigated it properly, I realized I'd actually experienced a
4:22
Speaker 2: lot of narcissistic abuse in my life. So some romantic relationships,
4:28
Speaker 2: some family relationships, they actually were examples of narcissistic abuse.
4:34
Speaker 1: Right. So I feel like, you know, you hear all
4:37
Speaker 1: the time, oh, he's a narcissist. She's a narcissist. They're
4:40
Speaker 1: such an asshole. You know, I can't deal with them.
4:42
Speaker 1: I feel like it's become something that's used as like
4:45
Speaker 1: a hurtful term and, you know, and it's all these
4:47
Speaker 1: narcissists probably using it on other people. So I want
4:50
Speaker 1: to get to the heart of exactly, you know, how
4:53
Speaker 1: do you know that you or someone else is a narcissist?
4:56
Speaker 1: Can we go through the symptoms?
4:58
Speaker 2: Yes. It is an overused term now. massively overused term
5:03
Speaker 2: and it's becoming a way of understanding reality and it's
5:09
Speaker 2: like a filter for relationships. So people come to me
5:12
Speaker 2: and they'll be like, I just need to know. Am
5:14
Speaker 2: I the narcissist or is he the narcissist? And I'm like,
5:16
Speaker 2: why have you framed the relationship that way? Somebody can
5:19
Speaker 2: be an asshole without having a strange and complex psychiatric condition.
5:26
Speaker 2: It is possible. And some relationships are not meant to be.
5:30
Speaker 2: Some combinations of people are genuinely toxic. And there is
5:33
Speaker 2: the possibility of emotional abuse existing in a relationship without
5:36
Speaker 2: a narcissistic personality sort of being present. Right. For me
5:40
Speaker 2: to say that somebody had narcissistic personality disorder, not narcissistic traits,
5:45
Speaker 2: because they're two separate things. If they have narcissistic personality disorder,
5:49
Speaker 2: they've experienced a very heavy level of abuse in childhood
5:54
Speaker 2: that created a split in them between narcissism. Good messaging
5:59
Speaker 2: and bad messaging. So they probably were the victims of
6:02
Speaker 2: abuse and or neglect at the same time as being
6:05
Speaker 2: told that they were wonderful and amazing for some performative
6:08
Speaker 2: action that they could engage in in the world. This
6:11
Speaker 2: then causes them, the adult that you have in front
6:14
Speaker 2: of you, to have given up on reality and they've
6:18
Speaker 2: chosen delusion. So they've had a psychotic break with reality
6:22
Speaker 2: and they are now pathologically obsessed with a delusional version
6:25
Speaker 2: of themselves. and a delusional story of their lives. Thankfully,
6:31
Speaker 2: that is still rare. That is still quite rare.
6:33
Speaker 1: And is it, I'm curious, is that something that's tangible
6:36
Speaker 1: that they see that this has happened and they're moving into,
6:39
Speaker 1: you know, they're splitting their personality kind of, or it's
6:42
Speaker 1: something that it just happens?
6:46
Speaker 2: I don't think, there's never really a conscious choice per se,
6:53
Speaker 2: it's a way of coping with the trauma that they
6:56
Speaker 2: were raised. And so the psychological term for this is splitting.
7:00
Speaker 2: So they are raised in an environment where a lot
7:03
Speaker 2: of splitting is taking place. Maybe they have parents who
7:07
Speaker 2: are addicts or alcoholics or tyrannically religious. And so the
7:11
Speaker 2: world becomes split. The parents treat them in a split way.
7:16
Speaker 2: You are wonderful. It's a child. They're good. You are awful.
7:21
Speaker 2: It's a child. They're okay. They're neither amazing and heavenly,
7:25
Speaker 2: nor are they awful and infernal. So they're receiving delusional feedback.
7:30
Speaker 2: And it's contradictory. So it splits the child's mind. The
7:34
Speaker 2: child's self-perception splits. And then in order to cope with that,
7:37
Speaker 2: they say, well, I'm going to live in one of
7:40
Speaker 2: these two fantasies. There's a fantasy in which I'm amazing
7:44
Speaker 2: and everything is wonderful about me. And there's a fantasy
7:46
Speaker 2: in which I'm awful and everything is awful about me.
7:48
Speaker 2: I'm going to choose the amazing one. But the dynamic
7:52
Speaker 2: that the narcissist lives inside of and treats the recipient,
7:55
Speaker 2: the partner, is one of a split where they're fighting
7:59
Speaker 2: to go to this false reality to escape this false reality.
8:03
Speaker 2: Depending on where they are on the narcissism spectrum, some
8:07
Speaker 2: will cycle more than others. But everybody who's had an
8:10
Speaker 2: experience of a true NPD will have a Dr. Jekyll, Mr.
8:15
Speaker 2: Hyde split personality type experience.
8:18
Speaker 1: Okay. And you said that that's more rare than having
8:20
Speaker 1: the actual traits, correct?
8:22
Speaker 2: Oh, God, yeah.
8:23
Speaker 1: I mean.
8:25
Speaker 2: I differ from other people speaking in this field. I've
8:30
Speaker 2: heard people say that the rates of incidents of narcissistic
8:33
Speaker 2: personality disorder are now as high as 30%. If that
8:37
Speaker 2: were true, our civilization would collapse. I think it's still
8:42
Speaker 2: at the 4% to 5% that it's always been, but.
8:47
Speaker 2: Narcissistic traits en masse are on the increase. So you
8:51
Speaker 2: can have an otherwise functional human being who's just very,
8:54
Speaker 2: very high in trait narcissism. And our culture actively encourages that.
8:58
Speaker 2: We can't deny it. That is still a problem. And
9:01
Speaker 2: it still makes them very difficult interpersonally. But that is
9:06
Speaker 2: fixable with therapy. That is fixable with intervention. Narcissistic personality
9:10
Speaker 2: disorder is not.
9:11
Speaker 1: Got it. Okay. So I want to talk about the,
9:13
Speaker 1: you talk about nine traits that people have, and you
9:16
Speaker 1: can remember them with the code special me. Can you
9:19
Speaker 1: get into some of those, if not all, so that
9:21
Speaker 1: people can really tangibly understand what they are looking for
9:24
Speaker 1: in themselves or in others?
9:26
Speaker 2: So you've got a sense of entitlement that they should
9:30
Speaker 2: be treated as different to other people. You've got interpersonally
9:35
Speaker 2: exploitative behaviors. They're bullying. They're envious. They are vengeful. They're
9:42
Speaker 2: heavily invested in an artificial sense of self. They lie
9:48
Speaker 2: frequently because they're living inside of a fantasy version of reality.
9:54
Speaker 2: And the experience of being around them is destructive. The
10:00
Speaker 2: last one is the tricky one inside of psychiatry because
10:04
Speaker 2: They haven't quite decided because all of this I'm using
10:07
Speaker 2: the American system, I'm using the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic
10:10
Speaker 2: and Statistical Manual. They don't seem to have made their
10:13
Speaker 2: minds up because they vote on these disorders by a committee,
10:16
Speaker 2: whether it's adaptive or maladaptive. So in the Trump election,
10:20
Speaker 2: you had some psychiatrists saying that's narcissistic personality disorder. And
10:24
Speaker 2: then the guy who headed the committee for the DSM-5
10:27
Speaker 2: said it's not because Trump is successful. And that means
10:31
Speaker 2: not to derail us into politics, but he's a good
10:33
Speaker 2: open example.
10:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, he's a great example. Yeah.
10:36
Speaker 2: And it was a polemic that took place publicly with
10:40
Speaker 2: the American, that then started to involve the American Psychiatric Association,
10:43
Speaker 2: never in the history of psychiatry.
10:48
Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
10:51
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10:56
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11:03
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11:15
Speaker 2: Many clinicians come together to say publicly, you shouldn't have
11:21
Speaker 2: that man in office because we think he's mentally ill.
11:24
Speaker 2: They're not supposed to do that. Right. So they couldn't
11:28
Speaker 2: decide whether it was adaptive or maladaptive. So there's still
11:32
Speaker 2: an open-ended question. If I'm hurting you, but I don't
11:38
Speaker 2: hurt me, is that a personality disorder? So if I'm
11:42
Speaker 2: very successful and you suffer, but I'm fine, is that
11:46
Speaker 2: a personality disorder? And they haven't quite resolved that one.
11:49
Speaker 2: But roughly speaking, when you're looking at the nine traits,
11:52
Speaker 2: that's the type of thing people should be looking for.
11:57
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Speaker 1: back on this Trump thing for one second, can you
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Speaker 1: only say that it's a negative thing if it's considered
15:52
Speaker 1: a disorder as opposed to having traits? I mean, isn't
15:55
Speaker 1: it just as dangerous to possess these traits? Just because
15:58
Speaker 1: he's successful doesn't mean he won't hurt others per se,
16:02
Speaker 1: you know, being in office like you're talking about.
16:07
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to stray into politics, but
16:10
Speaker 2: when it came out in 2016, I was in a
16:12
Speaker 2: different perspective personally. My understanding of narcissism was different. I
16:17
Speaker 2: think it is probably good and necessary for anybody who
16:23
Speaker 2: wants that role to have highly pronounced narcissistic traits. Even
16:29
Speaker 2: the grandiosity that is one of the nine traits of
16:32
Speaker 2: narcissism that defines narcissism. If you don't have a grandiose
16:36
Speaker 2: vision for your country, you don't have a narcissistic will
16:40
Speaker 2: to drive that forward. Do you belong in office?
16:42
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good point, yeah. And also, if you're
16:46
Speaker 1: too empathetic, let's say, you'll hold it every turn. There's
16:50
Speaker 1: also something probably to be said about being harsh and
16:54
Speaker 1: only thinking of yourself and not spending any time thinking
16:57
Speaker 1: of the consequences for others.
16:59
Speaker 2: There's something to be said for that in certain contexts, definitely. Right.
17:05
Speaker 2: You don't want, you can't have, we'll stick with the president,
17:09
Speaker 2: but it could be any political role anywhere in the world.
17:12
Speaker 2: But let's stick with the president of America because it's
17:15
Speaker 2: an easy one to wrap our heads around. It's so
17:17
Speaker 2: frequently portrayed in mainstream media and fiction. The last thing
17:21
Speaker 2: you would want in a country of 330 million people
17:27
Speaker 2: with so many different ethnicities and so many different perspectives
17:30
Speaker 2: and drives is is indecisiveness. The country would collapse. So
17:36
Speaker 2: you need, where's that decisiveness going to come from? If
17:40
Speaker 2: not from a somewhat delusional adherence, grandiose adherence, to a
17:47
Speaker 2: vision that is also somewhat entitled. Now, you don't want
17:52
Speaker 2: that to become abuse. You don't want that to become, well,
17:54
Speaker 2: we're going to abuse other countries because we're the best
17:56
Speaker 2: in the world. But for a country to think that
17:59
Speaker 2: it's special and good, is not, in my opinion, a
18:03
Speaker 2: bad thing. And for the leader of the country to
18:05
Speaker 2: think that it is special and good is not a
18:08
Speaker 2: bad thing. So when I enter this argument, if I
18:11
Speaker 2: was going to discuss it with clinicians, I'd be like,
18:13
Speaker 2: where's the line that we say this is neurotic? Now
18:15
Speaker 2: you're hurting yourself. Now you're hurting your foreign policy. It's
18:19
Speaker 2: hurting your public image. Your people hate you. So we've
18:22
Speaker 2: got to draw that line with a degree of nuance.
18:27
Speaker 1: Right, right. So let's stay away now from the disordered
18:31
Speaker 1: people and just stick with the traits because most people,
18:35
Speaker 1: you're saying more people have that than the actual disorder.
18:37
Speaker 1: So can someone be born a narcissist or is this
18:41
Speaker 1: something that, I mean, you talked a little bit about
18:43
Speaker 1: it with the personality disorder, but their environment sort of
18:46
Speaker 1: creates them into this character.
18:48
Speaker 3: So to speak.
18:50
Speaker 2: I think, so in psychology, It's the nature-nurture debate, and
18:59
Speaker 2: it's gone on for decades now. Are you born this way?
19:02
Speaker 2: Are you entrained into this? And even that can become
19:05
Speaker 2: a political conversation. So left-leaning people would say it's trauma.
19:11
Speaker 2: Right-leaning people would say you're born this way. However, we
19:15
Speaker 2: now live in the age of epigenetics. So we know
19:17
Speaker 2: full well that in no instance is it purely one
19:21
Speaker 2: or the other. unless you reject epigenetics and its claims,
19:25
Speaker 2: which is your environmental pressures are causing genes that otherwise
19:29
Speaker 2: would be dormant to start expressing themselves. So I had
19:34
Speaker 2: some genetic material that would lead me to psychopathy. Had
19:38
Speaker 2: I been raised in a lovely, sweet and quiet home,
19:40
Speaker 2: we would never have seen it. However, I was raised
19:43
Speaker 2: in a brutal environment with a drunk for a father
19:46
Speaker 2: and my mother's physically abusive, and I have to join
19:49
Speaker 2: a gang by I'm 12. I'm going to get stabbed
19:51
Speaker 2: to death. Guess what? You know, that latent, um, genetic
19:55
Speaker 2: material is, is, this is a really geneticist. We pulling
19:59
Speaker 2: the hair out right now because I'm coloring with crayons,
20:01
Speaker 2: but something like something like this is, is, is happening. Um,
20:07
Speaker 2: So nobody can really say. All I know that would
20:11
Speaker 2: be useful for you and useful to the viewers is
20:13
Speaker 2: from the data, from the research I've seen up until now,
20:17
Speaker 2: psychopathy seems to have a more genetic component than narcissism.
20:23
Speaker 2: As the technology develops, because it's still fairly new, we'll
20:27
Speaker 2: know more in the next 50 years or so.
20:30
Speaker 1: Right. So it is a possibility that people become narcissists
20:33
Speaker 1: as a defense mechanism.
20:36
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing is with narcissism, the reason why
20:39
Speaker 2: I and others would push back on the genetic element
20:43
Speaker 2: is there are specific substructures to the personality that really
20:49
Speaker 2: require that you learn that after you're born. It has
20:54
Speaker 2: all of the hallmarks of a learned response. You need
20:57
Speaker 2: an audience. You need to learn something. That love is adulation. Like,
21:03
Speaker 2: to a narcissist, genuine, vulnerable, adult, adult love is not only....
21:09
Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
21:12
Speaker 3: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
21:17
Speaker 3: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
21:24
Speaker 3: a treat.
21:28
Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
21:31
Speaker 4: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
21:39
Speaker 2: It's somewhat horrifying. It's like, I love you because you're
21:43
Speaker 2: a person. I'm a person. I don't want your love.
21:46
Speaker 2: I want you to worship me. Or fear me. But
21:50
Speaker 2: I am above you. I'm always above you. If you
21:53
Speaker 2: come at me like this, well, I'm going to be disgusted.
21:56
Speaker 2: I'm going to be offended. And I'm going to hurt
21:58
Speaker 2: you for that. You need punishing because you broke the system.
22:02
Speaker 2: That's learned. That has to be learned. I don't. I
22:07
Speaker 2: don't think there's anything in genetics that would cause a
22:09
Speaker 2: person to be born like that. With psychopathy, if you
22:12
Speaker 2: said there's less empathy, this person's sadistic, they're more prone
22:17
Speaker 2: to aggression, they have lower impulse control.
22:20
Speaker 1: Yes.
22:20
Speaker 2: And we could selectively breed animals for that. It's been done.
22:24
Speaker 2: They've done it with foxes in Russia. So we know
22:25
Speaker 2: that that's possible. The narcissism thing, I really, I really
22:29
Speaker 2: doubt it.
22:30
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. So narcissists are rigid in their point
22:35
Speaker 1: of views for the most part. Is it possible to
22:37
Speaker 1: get them to change their mind ever?
22:40
Speaker 2: I don't know. If you give me 20 of them,
22:42
Speaker 2: five years, a Guantanamo Bay style prison camp and you
22:46
Speaker 2: waive their human rights and I have an unending amount
22:48
Speaker 2: of psychedelic drugs to pump into them, maybe. I don't,
22:53
Speaker 2: I mean, all I can say is like normal dialogue
22:56
Speaker 2: is which is what talk therapy is. Talk therapy is
23:00
Speaker 2: wonderful and can work very well, but it requires two
23:04
Speaker 2: consenting adults with the same objective to be open and vulnerable.
23:08
Speaker 2: And that's not going to happen with a narcissist or
23:11
Speaker 2: somebody with NPD. So I don't know how to do
23:15
Speaker 2: it because their whole personality structure is rooted in a stubborn,
23:20
Speaker 2: rigid denial of reality. Like the core of their being
23:24
Speaker 2: is no. Keep reality out. So you come along and
23:28
Speaker 2: you say, hey, have you thought maybe you could be
23:30
Speaker 2: less of a dick all the time? And their first
23:32
Speaker 2: response is just, no, I'm perfect. You have the problem.
23:37
Speaker 2: And if you say all of your family and friends
23:39
Speaker 2: think the same way, it's a really simple answer. They go, well,
23:42
Speaker 2: I'm perfect. So therefore, all of my family and friends
23:46
Speaker 2: are engaged in a conspiracy against me. And anybody who's
23:49
Speaker 2: been with a narcissist will recognize that the tone and
23:52
Speaker 2: the style I've adopted for that, it feels the same.
23:56
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think a big question for people that
23:58
Speaker 1: deal with narcissists is how can they change? How can
24:02
Speaker 1: I get them to change? Will they ever change? And,
24:05
Speaker 1: you know, they hang on to this hope that something
24:08
Speaker 1: will change. And I think that becomes, um, almost the
24:12
Speaker 1: worst part of it. I've experienced it in, in relationships.
24:17
Speaker 1: I've experienced it with my own, one of my parents, um, which,
24:20
Speaker 1: which to me is almost worse because there's this feeling that, um,
24:25
Speaker 1: you know, my problem is that I constantly forgive and
24:27
Speaker 1: I constantly think, oh, well, this can't be how this
24:31
Speaker 1: is going to turn out. She will eventually turn around
24:35
Speaker 1: and be nice or love me or whatever it is
24:37
Speaker 1: that you hope for. And I think, you know, I've
24:39
Speaker 1: watched some of your stuff and we'll get to that
24:42
Speaker 1: actually in a little bit because I want to talk
24:43
Speaker 1: about parental narcissism or whatever. But I think that in
24:47
Speaker 1: a lot of it, people stay because they hope that
24:49
Speaker 1: something's going to change.
24:52
Speaker 2: Yes. So to answer the first question, if they have...
24:59
Speaker 2: narcissistic traits they can have an intervention there can be
25:03
Speaker 2: feedback and they can change if you're looking at narcissistic
25:07
Speaker 2: personality disorder the best thing you could do for yourself
25:12
Speaker 2: is to give up hope to cry to grieve to
25:16
Speaker 2: despair deal with that go to therapy don't expect them
25:21
Speaker 2: to go to therapy because there's no them there If
25:24
Speaker 2: it's a narcissistic personality disorder, the authentic human being locked
25:29
Speaker 2: itself away in a protective shell many years ago before
25:32
Speaker 2: they ever knew your name. And they chose the wrong word,
25:37
Speaker 2: but they had to do that or they felt they
25:40
Speaker 2: had to do that in order to survive. It's over.
25:42
Speaker 2: They're gone. Yeah. Many victims of narcissistic abuse can end
25:48
Speaker 2: up entrained into codependency through this hope, betrayal, hope, betrayal, hope,
25:53
Speaker 2: betrayal cycle. And what they're hoping for is to see
25:58
Speaker 2: the good split. So because the person is split and
26:02
Speaker 2: there's this wonderful, charming, fawning, seductive, kind person, side to
26:07
Speaker 2: them that wants to please you that's what we hope
26:11
Speaker 2: for and we hope the bad version of them never
26:14
Speaker 2: returns and we uh sorry to say to the people
26:18
Speaker 2: who have been in these relationships we start to go
26:21
Speaker 2: mad with them because they're split So we relate to
26:24
Speaker 2: them in a split way, we start splitting them, and
26:27
Speaker 2: we start recording the good and the bad memories, I claim, separately.
26:32
Speaker 2: So we develop a kind of disassociative response to the trauma,
26:36
Speaker 2: which is why we forgive. Because you're not associating to
26:40
Speaker 2: all the bad things they did, you associate to the
26:45
Speaker 2: good things the good side of them pretends to do,
26:49
Speaker 2: and you leave the bad stuff in another place. Which
26:52
Speaker 2: means that the The therapeutic hill to climb is quite
26:56
Speaker 2: long and quite steep in truth.
26:59
Speaker 1: Something you mentioned was that, you know, they have this
27:01
Speaker 1: charm to them. I personally know part of my you know,
27:06
Speaker 1: bad picker is that I tend to pick people that are,
27:09
Speaker 1: that have these narcissistic traits. Those people also tend to
27:13
Speaker 1: be very successful or be very charming or outgoing or
27:16
Speaker 1: have some sort of A-type personality. And to me, I
27:19
Speaker 1: find that attractive, but I keep picking people that also
27:22
Speaker 1: have that trait. What is it about us that picks
27:26
Speaker 1: these people or what is it about these people that,
27:29
Speaker 1: you know, they're so charming and so alluring to other people?
27:33
Speaker 1: Because you would think just, you know, it would be
27:36
Speaker 1: obvious that people would want to stay away from somebody
27:39
Speaker 1: with those traits.
27:42
Speaker 2: It isn't obvious to me that people would want to
27:45
Speaker 2: stay away from people with those traits. I think that's
27:47
Speaker 2: something that we were all raised to think. But if
27:51
Speaker 2: you challenge it, it isn't true. Don't you love the
27:56
Speaker 2: bad guy in some movies? Isn't he kind of cooler
28:00
Speaker 2: and funnier than... I'm more interested. The good guy is
28:04
Speaker 2: just good. Duh. I'm just good. Oh, good for you,
28:08
Speaker 2: Boy Scout. Why is the Joker killing people? Why is
28:12
Speaker 2: he called Hans Gruber, Alan Rickman in the Bruce Willis movie,
28:16
Speaker 2: Die Hard? That's a charming, evil... I want to have
28:22
Speaker 2: dinner with him. I want to sit next to the
28:25
Speaker 2: Boy Scout. What am I going to learn? No, no.
28:27
Speaker 2: I think.
28:30
Speaker 2: We have to be forgiving of ourselves and be like, well,
28:35
Speaker 2: what's here? So, yes, confidence is sexy. And there's a
28:42
Speaker 2: gender split here. So for women, women who are very...
28:47
Speaker 2: sexually provocative, who are in the histrionic spectrum of the
28:50
Speaker 2: cluster B, who are going to use sex and use
28:54
Speaker 2: sexual attractiveness. I can't sit here and go, oh, I
28:58
Speaker 2: have no idea why I would find that attractive. Of course.
29:03
Speaker 2: So there's a thing that I have to say to men,
29:05
Speaker 2: which is like, OK, recognize this in yourself. There are archetypes.
29:10
Speaker 2: There are stories. Think of the story of Salome in
29:14
Speaker 2: the Bible and the, you know, the archetype of the
29:19
Speaker 2: Jezebel or whatever. They have this in every culture. To women,
29:23
Speaker 2: I would say, let's have some just honest debate. Isn't
29:27
Speaker 2: it hot? The bad guy's hot, right?
29:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
29:31
Speaker 2: Genetically, what are you looking for? You want strong DNA.
29:35
Speaker 2: You want decisiveness. You want confidence. You want to meek. Like, full. Oh,
29:40
Speaker 2: good guy. Oh, that's great for you. What are we
29:44
Speaker 2: looking for? What are we looking for? And then how
29:48
Speaker 2: do we get some of what we're looking for and
29:51
Speaker 2: understand our own genetic drives? Because not everything that we're
29:55
Speaker 2: genetically adapted to means is good genetically. That's the nature
29:59
Speaker 2: of it. Just because your genes are saying, hey, get
30:03
Speaker 2: with this really hot, sexually provocative girl or this really hot, psychopathic, cold, indifferent,
30:08
Speaker 2: but strong man means you should do it. We don't
30:11
Speaker 2: follow every genetic drive. But is there good there? What
30:15
Speaker 2: are you going for? And to try and pass that
30:18
Speaker 2: and then you called it a picker, reprogram for that
30:25
Speaker 2: and go, no, I want that. That's hot because... If
30:28
Speaker 2: I want to stay with somebody for decades, I'm planning
30:31
Speaker 2: on having sex, so I would like sexual attraction to
30:34
Speaker 2: be there. These are the things I need. I think
30:37
Speaker 2: we can find a common ground. We don't want to
30:39
Speaker 2: engage in splitting. A lot of the victims of narcissistic
30:42
Speaker 2: abuse engage in splitting. You're either going to be with
30:43
Speaker 2: a hot, evil man or a not hot but good man.
30:48
Speaker 2: And that's splitting. That's not what the world, that's not
30:53
Speaker 2: your only two options.
30:54
Speaker 1: Right, right. What is the nice guy narcissist? That seems
30:58
Speaker 1: even more dangerous than a regular one.
31:00
Speaker 2: So the nice guy narcissist, as far as I know,
31:04
Speaker 2: that's not proper. That's not proper research talk. I think
31:08
Speaker 2: I've said nice guy narcissist, but somebody else said it
31:11
Speaker 2: before me. They definitely said it before me. So there's
31:15
Speaker 2: a pro-social narcissist. And then there's communal narcissists. So pro-social narcissists,
31:22
Speaker 2: they are charitable, kind. It's not all front.
31:29
Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
31:32
Speaker 3: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
31:37
Speaker 3: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
31:44
Speaker 3: a treat.
31:48
Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
31:51
Speaker 4: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
31:59
Speaker 2: Sometimes some are superficially kind. They'll run a charity and
32:04
Speaker 2: then they'll be doing something completely evil at the same time.
32:07
Speaker 2: But many really are doing good work. And there are
32:10
Speaker 2: historical figures that you can point to who really had
32:13
Speaker 2: a good impact in the world, but they were doing
32:16
Speaker 2: it for narcissistic supply. So they're ability to build significance
32:22
Speaker 2: and to have an audience and to have adulation comes
32:24
Speaker 2: from their good deeds. So they genuinely do good deeds
32:28
Speaker 2: to get that narcissistic supply, which is adjacent or not adjacent,
32:32
Speaker 2: but vectors in on the Venn diagram with communal narcissism,
32:36
Speaker 2: where they build communities to get their narcissistic supply. And
32:39
Speaker 2: in both cases, they can be very kind, very pro-social
32:42
Speaker 2: and really do good, but they're getting their trauma-based personality
32:49
Speaker 2: disorder needs met. Okay.
32:53
Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit at the beginning,
32:55
Speaker 1: but what is the actual difference between a narcissist or
32:58
Speaker 1: somebody with those traits and someone who is just selfish
33:01
Speaker 1: or an asshole? And does it really matter that there's
33:03
Speaker 1: a difference? I mean, again, like we said, so many
33:06
Speaker 1: people going around labeling others as a narcissist, either to
33:10
Speaker 1: be hurtful or because it helps them sort of label
33:13
Speaker 1: what's going on with that other person that they can't
33:15
Speaker 1: deal with.
33:16
Speaker 2: Well, and the other thing, you know, just to put
33:18
Speaker 2: a footnote to what you've said there, I agree with
33:20
Speaker 2: what you said, 100% footnote. It also absolves us of guilt.
33:24
Speaker 2: It also absolves us of like, oh, she's a narcissist.
33:27
Speaker 2: She's just an asshole. Okay. And what did you do? Nothing.
33:31
Speaker 2: I was perfect. I was the perfect boyfriend. Really? I
33:35
Speaker 2: don't need to go to therapy. I don't need to
33:37
Speaker 2: explore my shadow. I don't need to look at the
33:39
Speaker 2: fact that whatever, like we're human, we're fallible. You know,
33:44
Speaker 2: what was it about us coming together? You have two
33:46
Speaker 2: people coming together and then they create a third entity,
33:49
Speaker 2: which is the relationship. And it's unique. There's no combination
33:53
Speaker 2: of people that can create that third entity, but you two.
33:58
Speaker 2: YouTube created this thing and this thing has an impact.
34:01
Speaker 2: What's that? I think that's where people need to explore
34:05
Speaker 2: and we need to be very careful of this self-absolution
34:09
Speaker 2: that comes from condemning other people. And then you've got
34:12
Speaker 2: a witch hunt. What is this? McCarthyism again? It's no good.
34:16
Speaker 2: It's really no good. It is okay to say, let's
34:20
Speaker 2: have a very easy yardstick. You don't like what's happening
34:25
Speaker 2: in relationships. You presume the other person is an adult
34:30
Speaker 2: of good intent. If I tell you three times that
34:35
Speaker 2: it hurts me when you do a thing, by the
34:37
Speaker 2: time it's the third time you've done that thing, I
34:41
Speaker 2: have to question my assumptions about you as a human being.
34:46
Speaker 2: Unless you are deep in alcohol or drug addiction or
34:50
Speaker 2: grieving or engaged or the world is collapsing, Why are
34:56
Speaker 2: you continuing to do the thing that I told you
34:58
Speaker 2: really hurts me? It doesn't annoy me. It doesn't inconvenience me.
35:02
Speaker 2: It really hurts me. You're still doing it. I don't
35:04
Speaker 2: care whether they're a borderline type two psychopath with three
35:08
Speaker 2: pinches of histrionic and one part narcissism. You should leave.
35:12
Speaker 2: You should because life is short. Tons of humans around.
35:18
Speaker 2: Find someone else.
35:19
Speaker 1: Just find someone else.
35:21
Speaker 2: You don't need the psychiatric diagnosis rubber stamp, which is
35:25
Speaker 2: totally questionable, by the way. It's not like narcissism is
35:29
Speaker 2: a settled subject in psychiatry. Far from it. The battle
35:32
Speaker 2: rages on. It's a very controversial diagnosis. Very controversial. And
35:36
Speaker 2: it's changing decade, not year on year, but decade by decade,
35:40
Speaker 2: it's changing. We don't need it. If somebody's consistently transgressing
35:44
Speaker 2: your boundaries, you can leave and you don't need to
35:48
Speaker 2: say they're a narcissist or psychopath. You just leave. Right.
35:51
Speaker 1: You don't need the label.
35:53
Speaker 2: Okay.
35:53
Speaker 1: So what happens for the people that are still in
35:56
Speaker 1: the mode of staying and they haven't chosen to leave yet?
35:59
Speaker 1: What happens when you confront a narcissist? What's going on
36:02
Speaker 1: in their mind? But also, is there a correct way
36:05
Speaker 1: to do it?
36:07
Speaker 2: I have no idea why anybody would want to confront
36:10
Speaker 2: somebody with narcissistic personality disorder. You're facing a machine, a
36:17
Speaker 2: machine that does what it does. It does it in
36:21
Speaker 2: many ways, probably 80% blindly. It's in a state of
36:26
Speaker 2: repetition compulsion. It's highly traumatized and it's stuck on attack mode.
36:32
Speaker 2: We all have latent narcissism. We all have attack mode.
36:36
Speaker 2: this creature can't do anything else. So if you go, oh,
36:41
Speaker 2: let's go to therapy and be vulnerable and talk about
36:43
Speaker 2: how we really feel, you may as well be saying,
36:46
Speaker 2: let's just take up juggling chainsaws and speaking ancient Greek
36:49
Speaker 2: this afternoon, babe. They can't do it. So what do
36:52
Speaker 2: they have? They have a tap because all they're going
36:55
Speaker 2: to hear is you're not as wonderful as you need
36:58
Speaker 2: to think you are in order to survive. And they
37:02
Speaker 2: experience this as a threat to to their very survival,
37:06
Speaker 2: the core of their being is to maintain this image,
37:09
Speaker 2: they'll just attack you. So it's like saying, what's a
37:12
Speaker 2: good way of standing in front of a moving freight train?
37:14
Speaker 2: There really isn't one. You can, you don't, I know
37:19
Speaker 2: why people ask this. They're being conscientious. They're like, I
37:21
Speaker 2: spent 15 years with John and now this plonker with
37:26
Speaker 2: a weird accent from Britain is telling me I should
37:27
Speaker 2: just leave. No, I want to tell him, I want
37:30
Speaker 2: to talk to him. If it's NPD and you've done
37:34
Speaker 2: your research and you've developed the evidence to see that
37:36
Speaker 2: this really is NPD, you are absolved of the normal
37:41
Speaker 2: duties of dealing with another human being. You don't have
37:43
Speaker 2: to explain anything to them. You are better to go
37:47
Speaker 2: in survival mode. Do say anything to get out as
37:51
Speaker 2: safely as you can. If you need to lie, then lie.
37:54
Speaker 2: If you need to manipulate, then manipulate. get out, get away,
37:57
Speaker 2: create distance. It's a toxic substance and your exposure to
38:01
Speaker 2: it is slowly destroying you.
38:03
Speaker 1: I'm curious what your thoughts are on if somebody can
38:06
Speaker 1: show up with narcissistic traits to you, to your toxic relationship,
38:11
Speaker 1: but not show up for other people that way.
38:14
Speaker 2: Yes, it's actually quite common. It's actually quite common. So
38:18
Speaker 2: there are people with very, very deep wounds. It's often
38:23
Speaker 2: related to, I know it's a trope, But it often
38:25
Speaker 2: really is related to childhood, an abusive mother, a distant
38:30
Speaker 2: father or a father who abandoned the mother and the child, maybe.
38:34
Speaker 2: And so these are primary attachments. This is how the
38:40
Speaker 2: entity that we are, that human beings are, learns how
38:42
Speaker 2: to attach and to love. And if that's damage, then, yeah, yeah.
38:47
Speaker 2: You could be looking at somebody who is fairly functional
38:52
Speaker 2: at work, fairly functional with their friends. They go and
38:55
Speaker 2: play sport. There's a few bumps. There's usually interpersonal turbulence
39:00
Speaker 2: because they don't interpret human behavior very well and they
39:04
Speaker 2: can respond. But generally speaking, they're okay. And then they're
39:07
Speaker 2: just a monster. inside of the relationship. Yes, that can
39:12
Speaker 2: happen for sure.
39:12
Speaker 1: And do you think that could be because you trigger
39:14
Speaker 1: something within them? So it's not with every relationship, it's
39:17
Speaker 1: just this blending of two people, or it would always
39:20
Speaker 1: show up in every relationship because the relationship is so triggering.
39:26
Speaker 2: Something like that is happening. I should just say, if
39:29
Speaker 2: it's MPD, being NPD all the time.
39:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:33
Speaker 2: They're pulling it off. They're pulling off the front when
39:36
Speaker 2: they're not invested. But something about the investments in the relationship,
39:40
Speaker 2: as you just said correctly, is a trigger. And then
39:44
Speaker 2: they're under threat. And then the narcissistic, what is it called?
39:48
Speaker 2: You have narcissistic energy and the narcissistic rage. So then
39:51
Speaker 2: they start to interact in a very bullying and exploitative way.
39:55
Speaker 2: They're always like that. It's just if you have maybe
39:58
Speaker 2: somebody who's kind of a pro-social or nice guy, nice
40:01
Speaker 2: girl narcissist, nobody else will see it. Only their partners
40:05
Speaker 2: will see it. But if that's the case... All their
40:09
Speaker 2: partners will see it. And if you speak or you
40:12
Speaker 2: can find out about what happened with their ex-partners or
40:15
Speaker 2: even talk to them, you'll see that this is what
40:17
Speaker 2: they do. We, sadly, I'm going to say things that
40:20
Speaker 2: will hurt people's feelings now. I realized this with my ex.
40:23
Speaker 2: There's really no difference between me and the five guys
40:27
Speaker 2: before me. We were just friends. You're just the man
40:31
Speaker 2: in her life. So for him, you're just the woman
40:34
Speaker 2: in his life right now. You're part of his story.
40:36
Speaker 2: You're a chapter in his book. That's it. And when
40:38
Speaker 2: you go, is he going to sit there and cry
40:41
Speaker 2: and think about you? Not the way you'll be thinking
40:44
Speaker 2: about him. He's not capable of that. They just move on.
40:47
Speaker 2: They just find another person. One person is as good
40:49
Speaker 2: as another in many ways.
40:50
Speaker 1: Right. Almost like a placeholder for the next.
40:52
Speaker 2: Yeah.
40:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, let's talk about this parental relationship and the
40:57
Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse that can happen there. To me, that is
41:01
Speaker 1: worse because with relationships, they come and they go and
41:03
Speaker 1: get out of them. But with a parent, you can't,
41:07
Speaker 1: you always have them, whether, you know, unless you choose
41:09
Speaker 1: to cut them off and still that pain can be
41:11
Speaker 1: very debilitating for some. I've heard you talk a lot
41:14
Speaker 1: about this and I want people to hear your advice
41:17
Speaker 1: on how to move on from this or how to
41:19
Speaker 1: get out of this cycle with a parent.
41:24
Speaker 2: Yes. And you've told me this is something you're struggling
41:27
Speaker 2: with as well.
41:29
Speaker 3: Yes.
41:30
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I'm 49 next week. I've struggled with
41:32
Speaker 1: it my whole life, but I've only started to realize that,
41:37
Speaker 1: you know, what, what it was, because as I said,
41:40
Speaker 1: for me, like the hope is the thing that's been
41:42
Speaker 1: killing me, you know, and I constantly, you know, I
41:45
Speaker 1: swear I'll never speak to them, that person again.
41:47
Speaker 3: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
41:52
Speaker 3: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
41:57
Speaker 3: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
42:04
Speaker 3: a treat.
42:08
Speaker 4: With eight flavours to choose from, you can choose the
42:11
Speaker 4: flavour you favour with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
42:19
Speaker 1: And then next thing I know, I'm like, want to
42:22
Speaker 1: get some pizza. You know, it's like, it just is
42:25
Speaker 1: the worst. And I witnessed, you know, from my personal experience,
42:28
Speaker 1: I witnessed my parents being fight terribly when I was younger,
42:33
Speaker 1: you know, before the age of five. And then in
42:35
Speaker 1: the next breath, they would kind of just make up.
42:38
Speaker 1: And so I think I learned that kind of communication skill,
42:41
Speaker 1: but it's gotten worse. I mean, my father's no longer living.
42:44
Speaker 1: They were divorced when I was young, but with my mother,
42:48
Speaker 1: you know, it's, it's a very interesting dynamic because there
42:50
Speaker 1: are some days she could be so nice, but then
42:53
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, It's a really terrible
42:56
Speaker 1: relationship that goes back way before I can even remember. And,
43:01
Speaker 1: you know, it's almost a sense that she really doesn't
43:03
Speaker 1: like me, you know, and people are always like, no,
43:05
Speaker 1: that's not true. That's not true. And, oh, just forgive her.
43:08
Speaker 1: Just get over it. And those people do not understand
43:11
Speaker 1: when you have a narcissistic relationship. abusive relationship with a parent,
43:17
Speaker 1: you cannot just forgive them. You cannot just get over it. It's,
43:19
Speaker 1: it's like deep within you. And those, those things never changed.
43:23
Speaker 1: And for me, the problem was, you know, she would
43:26
Speaker 1: kind of provoke me silently, quietly, and then I would
43:30
Speaker 1: have this outburst and she'd be like, see, see what
43:33
Speaker 1: you're doing. No one, you know, no one can believe
43:36
Speaker 1: you're acting this way, Rachel, how could you treat me
43:38
Speaker 1: this way? And, and, It was really terrible. It makes
43:41
Speaker 1: me almost emotional thinking about it because it still happens.
43:43
Speaker 1: And I revert to being like a 14-year-old child when
43:46
Speaker 1: I'm around her. But it's interesting with my daughter. She's
43:49
Speaker 1: very good. She's not that way.
43:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tough one. And it's one, I'm in therapy.
44:00
Speaker 2: Are you in therapy? Yeah.
44:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I've been in therapy for many, many
44:04
Speaker 1: decades over it and have been, you know, the best
44:08
Speaker 1: advice I sort of was given many years ago by Dr. Drew.
44:11
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with him, who's a
44:14
Speaker 1: friend of mine and I've worked with, you know, he
44:16
Speaker 1: really suggested that I cut that person out. But that
44:20
Speaker 1: created all sorts of anger. And and the lesson he
44:22
Speaker 1: gave me with that is what as you heal, it
44:26
Speaker 1: really threatens that other person. They don't want to see
44:29
Speaker 1: you getting better because then it takes the power away.
44:32
Speaker 1: And when I threatened to cut her off many years ago,
44:36
Speaker 1: it created an anger and a lot of threatening, you know,
44:40
Speaker 1: that that almost made it more dangerous.
44:45
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree with what he said to you. I
44:49
Speaker 2: just would add a layer to that. So first of all,
44:52
Speaker 2: I want to give you a quote from Nietzsche that
44:55
Speaker 2: I haven't spoken to my father in 18 years. He's
45:00
Speaker 2: a very bad man. He ended up going to prison
45:02
Speaker 2: for what he did to his children. And obviously there
45:06
Speaker 2: was always a hope inside of me because there's different
45:08
Speaker 2: parts of you. So the little boy in me, of course,
45:11
Speaker 2: wants a father and a mother that love him. And
45:14
Speaker 2: I acknowledge that. And I think that's good. I think
45:16
Speaker 2: that's healthy. I think I think that's OK. So I
45:18
Speaker 2: start there when I'm like dealing with myself. Nietzsche said
45:23
Speaker 2: hope really is the worst of all things because it
45:26
Speaker 2: prolongs the suffering of man. In a situation where you
45:30
Speaker 2: are hoping and hoping and hoping for a different outcome,
45:33
Speaker 2: the torture never ends. The thing to do if you
45:37
Speaker 2: want the torture to end is to end it because
45:40
Speaker 2: we're not children anymore. Now, to add to what Dr.
45:44
Speaker 2: Dhruv said to you, there's your mother out there. She's
45:49
Speaker 2: a real person, but you're not really fighting with her.
45:53
Speaker 2: You're dealing with a mother in here. You're dealing with
45:55
Speaker 2: the interjected mother. You said she became angry when I
45:59
Speaker 2: rejected her. She did. But the mother in here started
46:03
Speaker 2: to guilt trip you and shame you and make you
46:06
Speaker 2: feel like a very, very bad girl for abandoning her.
46:10
Speaker 2: And so in the end, what leads you back to
46:13
Speaker 2: the abusive relationship can often be feelings of guilt and
46:17
Speaker 2: feeling like you've almost abandoned the child, depending on the
46:20
Speaker 2: context of the relationship. So the real the real problem,
46:24
Speaker 2: the real enemy isn't really out there. It's this interjected
46:28
Speaker 2: mother inside or father inside of us. What's the interjected
46:32
Speaker 2: mother going to say if I say, no, I'm not
46:34
Speaker 2: going to talk to my So all of us inside
46:36
Speaker 2: of here, we're going, I'm not going to talk to
46:39
Speaker 2: my real world mother anymore. And the interjected mother goes, oh,
46:43
Speaker 2: fucking really? Oh, fucking really? We'll see about that. Two
46:47
Speaker 2: months in, three months in, you'll find yourself into an
46:51
Speaker 2: abusive relationship with some psychopathic man. You'll find, not you,
46:54
Speaker 2: but like people find themselves being tempted into alcohol, into drugs.
46:59
Speaker 2: And that's the mother interject going, if you defy me,
47:03
Speaker 2: I am going to hurt you. You are going to
47:04
Speaker 2: experience pain. So these are things that have to be
47:07
Speaker 2: pulled apart very, very carefully in therapy. And that's, in
47:12
Speaker 2: order to really overcome this, we have to deal with
47:14
Speaker 2: that interjected part.
47:15
Speaker 1: Right. Are female narcissists the same as male narcissists?
47:26
Speaker 2: Well, I believe in biological determinism, and I think a
47:29
Speaker 2: woman is a woman is a man is a man.
47:30
Speaker 1: No, that's not what I was asking.
47:35
Speaker 2: You can cut that bit out. It'll give you unnecessary controversy.
47:40
Speaker 2: Richard Grannon makes outrageous claims. Yeah, no, the manifestation between
47:45
Speaker 2: male and female narcissism to me, is largely the same.
47:50
Speaker 2: The infrastructure is the same. The manifestation internally is the same.
47:56
Speaker 2: In the world, of course, we're going to use different strategies.
47:58
Speaker 2: Like if you and I were in a race to,
48:03
Speaker 2: I don't know, overthrow a corporation, the modality that you're
48:08
Speaker 2: going to think to instantly is going to be different
48:11
Speaker 2: to me. It's going to be like, how do you
48:15
Speaker 2: use what you have and what you've learned to get
48:19
Speaker 2: what you want? How am I going to use my life,
48:23
Speaker 2: my experience, my strengths, my weaknesses to get what I want?
48:25
Speaker 2: Of course, that's going to show up differently. So it's
48:30
Speaker 2: different externally. Internally, it's the same thing. It's the same thing.
48:35
Speaker 2: So it's significant, but not that significant. Right.
48:37
Speaker 1: Got it. A lot of people describe codependence as someone
48:40
Speaker 1: who will stay with someone that they shouldn't or they
48:43
Speaker 1: will enmesh themselves in a relationship like with a narcissist.
48:47
Speaker 1: Do you believe that? And what is the diagnosis or
48:50
Speaker 1: what is the real term for codependency if it's a
48:53
Speaker 1: real thing?
48:55
Speaker 2: It's not a clinical diagnosis. There's something called dependent personality disorder.
49:01
Speaker 2: There's a real clinical diagnosis. Codependency is up for grabs.
49:06
Speaker 2: It's largely an American term. It comes from, it grew
49:08
Speaker 2: out of Alcoholics Anonymous. What was it? It was first
49:13
Speaker 2: the alcoholic and then the person who is dependent upon
49:16
Speaker 2: the alcoholic. So it was the alcoholic codependent to the alcoholic.
49:23
Speaker 2: And that grew in the late 70s, possibly early 80s.
49:27
Speaker 2: You can't really track it because they were saying it,
49:29
Speaker 2: not writing it. It was written of, the first reference
49:32
Speaker 2: I can find is 1983, Codependent. It is American. It
49:36
Speaker 2: is non-clinical. It comes from addiction and alcohol circles. And
49:42
Speaker 2: then it was very popularized throughout the 80s by three women.
49:45
Speaker 2: I can't remember their names. They all wrote bestselling novels
49:48
Speaker 2: about women being stuck in relationships with abusive, psychopathic men.
49:54
Speaker 2: So we all have this kind of group understanding of
49:56
Speaker 2: codependency as being the person who enables, the person who stays,
50:02
Speaker 2: the phone responder who can't say no, the people pleaser
50:06
Speaker 2: as the person who sticks around in a relationship. I've
50:09
Speaker 2: written a book called The Cult of One in that
50:11
Speaker 2: I define my version of codependency, which I call echo codependency.
50:15
Speaker 2: And I try to present it as almost a mirror
50:17
Speaker 2: image of narcissism. I believe it was created in the
50:20
Speaker 2: same environment that creates narcissism. It's just a different response.
50:23
Speaker 2: One is a prey response. One is a predator response.
50:26
Speaker 2: Codependent is prey response. Narcissism is a predator response. But
50:31
Speaker 2: it's off the grabs. I use the term, but it's
50:35
Speaker 2: kind of an umbrella term that's non-clinical.
50:38
Speaker 4: Right.
50:38
Speaker 1: Right. OK. The one big thing that when I mentioned
50:41
Speaker 1: I was having somebody come on to talk about narcissism,
50:44
Speaker 1: everyone wanted to talk about gaslighting. That is the biggest
50:47
Speaker 1: thing that goes with narcissistic abuse. I want to talk
50:51
Speaker 1: about phrases of gaslighting. I've heard you talk about this.
50:54
Speaker 1: I think there are things that we've all heard before.
50:57
Speaker 1: But I think it's really important for you to go
50:59
Speaker 1: down and give some real examples of phrases so people
51:02
Speaker 1: really know what they're listening to. I've been in circumstances
51:05
Speaker 1: of gaslighting. I'm sure you have. Many people have. It
51:08
Speaker 1: is a terrible place to be. You feel like you're
51:12
Speaker 1: going crazy. You feel alone. You feel like you cannot
51:15
Speaker 1: get through to this other person and you don't know why.
51:18
Speaker 1: And it can make you crazy. So let's go through
51:22
Speaker 1: some phrases that people should look for when they are
51:25
Speaker 1: with when they are being Gas lit.
51:29
Speaker 2: You've been gas lit, did you say?
51:30
Speaker 1: Yes, I have.
51:32
Speaker 2: No, you haven't.
51:33
Speaker 1: You're doing it right now.
51:37
Speaker 2: First thing is gas lighting doesn't exist. I actually had
51:41
Speaker 2: a therapist say that to me. She said that she
51:43
Speaker 2: was an expert on narcissistic abuses in 2016. We got
51:46
Speaker 2: three sessions in and we started talking about narcissistic abuse.
51:49
Speaker 2: And she said to me at one point in the session,
51:51
Speaker 2: she was like, but you have to understand that narcissistic
51:53
Speaker 2: abuse doesn't exist. I was like, what? She said, narcissism
51:57
Speaker 2: is made up. And I was like, are you trying
51:59
Speaker 2: to drive me crazy? So gaslighting really is, it comes from,
52:06
Speaker 2: there's two movies that were made three years apart. One
52:10
Speaker 2: was a British, one was a British American version called Gaslight.
52:14
Speaker 2: And the chap is doing something that changes the gaslight
52:21
Speaker 2: in the house to go up and down. And the
52:23
Speaker 2: woman can clearly see that he's doing it. And says,
52:25
Speaker 2: the gas lamps are going up and down. He says, no,
52:27
Speaker 2: they're not. No, they're not. And so that's gaslighting. So
52:31
Speaker 2: it's typically used in, it's like, they call it crazy
52:34
Speaker 2: making communication. It'd be there to drive you crazy. You
52:37
Speaker 2: say you've been gaslit. And I go, no, you haven't.
52:39
Speaker 2: You go, yeah, I've definitely experienced gaslighting. Gaslighting doesn't exist.
52:44
Speaker 2: That's examples of gaslighting. You know full well that gaslighting exists.
52:48
Speaker 2: You know full well from your subjective experience that you've
52:51
Speaker 2: experienced that, but I deny your perception of reality. Now,
52:55
Speaker 2: when I deny your perception of reality in a calm
52:58
Speaker 2: and decisive way, The only thing a rational person can
53:02
Speaker 2: begin to do is to begin to question themselves and say, right,
53:05
Speaker 2: experience gaslighting. So it makes you doubt yourself. And that's
53:08
Speaker 2: where you start to go crazy. You lose your confidence
53:12
Speaker 2: in your ability to perceive reality clearly.
53:15
Speaker 1: Right. So it's phrases that, like you said, make a
53:19
Speaker 1: person think that what they're saying is not accurate. But
53:22
Speaker 1: then there are also phrases like, you know, this is
53:25
Speaker 1: exactly why you don't have any friends or this is why,
53:27
Speaker 1: you know, everyone fights with you. That can be a
53:29
Speaker 1: version as well, right?
53:32
Speaker 2: It would be a way of, so you've done your
53:35
Speaker 2: gaslighting and then you solidify it. You know, look, you
53:40
Speaker 2: know you're crazy.
53:41
Speaker 1: Come on.
53:42
Speaker 2: You know you forget stuff. Come on. Everybody says that
53:46
Speaker 2: you make stuff up. Don't exaggerate. You're just like your mother.
53:50
Speaker 2: You're always exaggerating. Just like her. That would be a
53:55
Speaker 2: way of cementing whatever gaslighting injunction went before. I know
54:00
Speaker 2: I saw you kiss that girl last night. I didn't
54:02
Speaker 2: kiss her. I was talking to her and my lips
54:05
Speaker 2: hit hers. Why are you so wound up about sex
54:11
Speaker 2: all the time? It was an innocent... I spoke to him,
54:15
Speaker 2: I let... See, this guy. Whatever you saw the person
54:19
Speaker 2: do it. I saw you do that. I have evidence. Now,
54:22
Speaker 2: that's not evidence of what you think it is. Are
54:24
Speaker 2: you going to trust me or trust your lying eyes?
54:27
Speaker 1: Wait, I have a very funny story. I'm not going
54:28
Speaker 1: to use names, but I have a male friend who
54:32
Speaker 1: was dating a woman for like four years, and he
54:34
Speaker 1: would always... cheat on her. And he was never physically caught.
54:39
Speaker 1: And one night his girlfriend had stayed home and one
54:43
Speaker 1: of her friends was out at a bar and got
54:45
Speaker 1: a video of him making out with a girl in
54:48
Speaker 1: a dark bar and kind of rolling around on this
54:50
Speaker 1: like couch area with this woman. sends it to the,
54:53
Speaker 1: to the girlfriend and the girlfriend confronts the guy. And
54:58
Speaker 1: the guy said, that's not me. What are you talking about?
55:01
Speaker 1: I wasn't even there. That guy looks like me, maybe
55:04
Speaker 1: to the point where he would get, he was getting
55:07
Speaker 1: mad at her. How dare you accuse me of this?
55:10
Speaker 1: What are you doing? That makes you jealous. Obviously you're cheating,
55:14
Speaker 1: turn it around. So like a couple of days later,
55:16
Speaker 1: I'm like, so what happened? Did you, are you broken up?
55:19
Speaker 1: He's like, no, she believed me. It wasn't me. And
55:21
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm friends with the guy, so I found
55:23
Speaker 1: the story funny, but it's a terrible story, right?
55:27
Speaker 2: That's outrageous.
55:28
Speaker 1: They're not together anymore. And so, you know, obviously, but
55:32
Speaker 1: I thought I was like, that's gaslighting. And then he's like, no,
55:35
Speaker 1: it's not Rachel.
55:36
Speaker 2: No, it's not. Gaslighting is real. Right.
55:40
Speaker 1: I wasn't gaslighting. I was just lying.
55:43
Speaker 2: It's, it's, it's, uh, deny, attack, and then reverse victim, offender.
55:49
Speaker 2: They call it deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. So
55:53
Speaker 2: the first thing you just say, that's not me. Then
55:55
Speaker 2: you attack. But why are you videoing me? Why are
55:57
Speaker 2: you such a stalker? Why are your friends such psychos?
56:00
Speaker 2: That's not me. You're all psychos. There's something wrong with you.
56:03
Speaker 2: I told you there's something wrong with you. Victim, offender
56:06
Speaker 2: would be that. Now this is about you. And what
56:09
Speaker 2: a paranoid, weird person. Like, who does this? And if
56:12
Speaker 2: I can keep on the attack. It's kind of like
56:15
Speaker 2: martial arts, like boxing. As long as, yeah, you've got
56:18
Speaker 2: a good shot there, but if I can keep attacking you,
56:20
Speaker 2: you can't do your good shots. Attack is the best
56:23
Speaker 2: form of defense. And yeah, sadly, it does work because
56:27
Speaker 2: I think what you've got at the background of all this,
56:29
Speaker 2: the elephant in the room to why everybody's complaining about narcissism,
56:33
Speaker 2: is really, it's not a pandemic of narcissism. We're in
56:36
Speaker 2: a loneliness pandemic. We're in a codependency pandemic. We're consuming
56:42
Speaker 2: way too much stuff that other people crave for us.
56:44
Speaker 2: We're all engaged in way too much screen time, way
56:46
Speaker 2: too much ideology is being pumped in. And then we're
56:49
Speaker 2: very lonely. We're very alienated from each other. You meet
56:52
Speaker 2: a special person, And you hold on to them. And
56:55
Speaker 2: at a point where you say, I need to let
56:57
Speaker 2: this go and find someone else, you're like, no, but
57:00
Speaker 2: they're the one. They're special. And that's what keeps you.
57:05
Speaker 2: You believe their lies. You want to believe the lies, sadly.
57:09
Speaker 2: It's tragic, really.
57:10
Speaker 1: Because you'd rather do that than be alone.
57:12
Speaker 2: True. Yeah.
57:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, okay. Last thing, how do we have a
57:17
Speaker 1: healthy relationship? What, can you give some advice on what
57:20
Speaker 1: people can do, can look for, um, in a healthy relationship?
57:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. I'm 46 years old in two weeks time
57:27
Speaker 2: and I'm in a healthy relationship. Let me share my
57:29
Speaker 2: wisdom with you. I believe, uh, If you've got two
57:37
Speaker 2: people who are very, very traumatized and the trauma is
57:40
Speaker 2: around love and attachment and stability when they're raised in
57:44
Speaker 2: rough childhood environments, the big challenge, one of the biggest
57:48
Speaker 2: challenges that they'll face as an adult human being is
57:51
Speaker 2: intimate relationships. It will be very, very difficult. I imagine,
57:56
Speaker 2: I've never lived it, but if you have two people who, well,
57:59
Speaker 2: if you've never experienced that and you're raised in a
58:01
Speaker 2: nice environment, you've got another person who's raised in a
58:03
Speaker 2: nice environment, it should be okay. It should be all right.
58:07
Speaker 2: if you if you haven't you've got to go to
58:09
Speaker 2: therapy you've got to look at the stuff you've got
58:12
Speaker 2: to deal with it and then you really need to
58:15
Speaker 2: know that that's something that you want to do with
58:18
Speaker 2: another person you have to be willing to be self-sacrificing
58:21
Speaker 2: you have to have really, really very high levels of empathy.
58:26
Speaker 2: You'll have to be very forgiving. You're going to have
58:29
Speaker 2: to be willing to be very vulnerable and very open.
58:33
Speaker 2: Because when we talk about relationships, we just throw it away. Like,
58:36
Speaker 2: I want to be in a relationship. What kind? Long term. Well,
58:40
Speaker 2: how long are you planning on living? You're talking about
58:42
Speaker 2: decades of living in the same house with another human being, right?
58:45
Speaker 2: I say this in seminars to people. Like, I want love.
58:48
Speaker 2: I want a relationship. And I'm like, you want decades
58:50
Speaker 2: of living in a house with another human being. And
58:51
Speaker 2: their eyes glaze over. And I'm like, what's the disconnect?
58:57
Speaker 2: You've got your fantasy, and then that's the reality. So
59:01
Speaker 2: instead of asking, how do I fulfill my wonderful fantasy?
59:05
Speaker 2: How do I live with a person? And how do
59:08
Speaker 2: I make myself livable with it? That's probably going to
59:11
Speaker 2: get us closer to where we need to be. There
59:14
Speaker 2: can be no love without vulnerability. And there can be
59:18
Speaker 2: no vulnerability without safety. Make your partner feel safe. You
59:22
Speaker 2: want to make them jealous. You want to wind them up.
59:24
Speaker 2: You want to frighten them with other potential partners. Good luck.
59:28
Speaker 2: Good luck. You deserve to be single. You have to
59:31
Speaker 2: create safety because you're dealing with the most sensitive parts
59:34
Speaker 2: of the other human being, literally and figuratively.
59:38
Speaker 1: And I think what you said is important. People need
59:39
Speaker 1: to start thinking of what they can do to make
59:43
Speaker 1: their relationship better as opposed to it's always about why
59:46
Speaker 1: that other person isn't living up to these standards that
59:49
Speaker 1: they've made up in their head anyway. And also, I think,
59:52
Speaker 1: in my opinion, it's important to learn how to really listen.
59:55
Speaker 1: And also, you know, you have to want to be known.
59:59
Speaker 1: You have to want someone to understand you and know
1:00:02
Speaker 1: you and be vulnerable, like you said. So I think
1:00:04
Speaker 1: for me, those would be things that people have to remember.
1:00:07
Speaker 1: But what do I know? I'm, again, 49 and single.
1:00:09
Speaker 1: So has yet to be proven in my book.
1:00:13
Speaker 4: But all right.
1:00:14
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Where can they hear more
1:00:17
Speaker 1: about all these things that you talk about?
1:00:20
Speaker 2: I'm all over YouTube. I have five different channels on YouTube.
1:00:23
Speaker 2: I love YouTube. If you just put my name in,
1:00:24
Speaker 2: I'm active daily on Instagram as well. So that's probably
1:00:29
Speaker 2: the best.
1:00:30
Speaker 1: Do you read your DMs? Can people DM you with
1:00:32
Speaker 1: a question?
1:00:34
Speaker 2: No, but I go, I don't do DMs, but I
1:00:36
Speaker 2: go live quite regularly, three or four times a week
1:00:39
Speaker 2: on Instagram. And you can ask me a question when
1:00:42
Speaker 2: I'm live. You can even come and talk to me.
1:00:43
Speaker 2: You can do video chat with me. Or you When
1:00:47
Speaker 2: I post a reel or a video, if you write
1:00:49
Speaker 2: a question underneath it, it's highly likely that I'll eventually
1:00:52
Speaker 2: say it.
1:00:53
Speaker 1: And are you still doing your seminars?
1:00:56
Speaker 2: I will be doing seminars. There's none booked as yet
1:01:00
Speaker 2: this year. At some point this year, I will be
1:01:04
Speaker 2: in San Diego and Los Angeles. Amazing.
1:01:08
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, make sure you check Richard out. His
1:01:11
Speaker 1: stuff is very interesting. I think everyone will have something
1:01:14
Speaker 1: to learn from that. Richard, thank you so much.
1:01:17
Speaker 2: Thank you.
1:01:27
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
1:01:30
Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
1:01:33
Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
1:01:35
Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
1:01:40
Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
1:01:43
Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
1:01:47
Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
1:01:53
Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
1:01:58
Speaker 5: Are you learning to drive? From the 1st of November 2026,
1:02:01
Speaker 5: new rules will apply for learner permit holders. To get
1:02:05
Speaker 5: a third or fourth learner permit, you must have taken
1:02:08
Speaker 5: a driving test within the previous two years. After your
1:02:12
Speaker 5: fourth permit, or if your permit has been expired for
1:02:15
Speaker 5: more than two years, you will have to start the
1:02:17
Speaker 5: learning to drive process again. Remember, you can only drive
1:02:21
Speaker 5: unaccompanied if you hold a valid full driving licence. Find
1:02:24
Speaker 5: out more at rsa.ie, a message from the Road Safety Authority.