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Unshame · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: And talking about different quotes and looking at different quotes, we found a new book about DID. And in fact, that book isn't even the first book. So the book we found is called Unshame by Carolyn Spring. And that's actually her second book. And it's sort of about the process of therapy, whereas her first book is actually about DID.
• 1:25
  That's my understanding. We'll have to see if she wants to be on the podcast. But the quote that we found on her page actually, which is how we found the book, was this. Listen to this quote. Oh my goodness.
• 1:39
  It says, there aren't words big enough to describe this feeling. It is a sense that I would rather be anyone other than myself. It is a belief that I am fundamentally and impossibly flawed, that I will never change, that there is no one in the universe as unacceptable as me. It is an expectation that I must cling to the edge of the room because if I dare to take my place in the world, to show my face, to announce my arrival, I will be rejected. I am only allowed here as long as no one notices me, as long as I don't get in the way, as long as I don't need or demand anything.
• 2:30
  And here I am in therapy, the center of attention, full of neediness, grasping for connection, disclosing my feelings, daring to be. It is dangerous and mortifying and delicious all at the same time. What? Can you believe that? It is amazing.
• 2:54
  It is so, so powerful, this quote. I mean, it's obviously not from a positive standpoint, but it's raw and authentic about what it's like to sit there in those moments with feelings of shame where it is honestly about the badness that is just a part of us because of what was done to us. Right? But in the moment, it just feels like that this is who we are, which is very different than just which is very different than just a pity party or very different than, like, attention seeking. Those feelings aren't about give me compliments so that I feel better.
• 3:41
  It's not that because those don't work. It doesn't nothing changes because it's about who I am and how I'm feeling and all of those shame things. So you all know that we've been studying shame for over a year now and shame theory and how healing comes through connection and attunement and misattunement and all of those kinds of things. If you're just now listening and you want to understand more about attunement, go on YouTube and search for the still face experiment, which is an old school psych video where there's a mother and a baby. And the baby's in the high chair, and the mother's right there playing with the baby, paying attention to the baby.
• 4:29
  They're mimicking the sounds and the facial expressions and touching with their hands. And it's all very positive. The mother's being attentive. And so that's attunement when your needs are noticed and reflected and met. That's what attunement is, when your needs are noticed and reflected and met.
• 4:54
  Okay? But then as part of the experiment, what the mother does is turn away, and then when she turns back towards the baby, her face is completely flat, and she doesn't respond at all. She doesn't touch the baby. She doesn't make any sounds. She doesn't make any facial expressions.
• 5:09
  She doesn't touch, like nothing. No response at all. Completely, completely flat. And at first, the baby tries to just engage like normal, like reaching out and cooing and making sounds and trying to get the mother's attention. And when that doesn't work, the baby becomes distressed and starts to whimper and cry a little bit.
• 5:33
  Right? And when that doesn't even get the mother's attention, then it's like there's this cognitive dissonance that you can see on the baby's face where even if that's the mother in front of me, that in front of me is not the mother that I know, is not the mother that I need. And so the baby becomes almost aggressive trying to push the mother away, hitting at the mother, swatting at the mother, trying to push it away because that experience she's not trying to push the mother away. The baby's trying to push away this negative experience that is misattunement of not meeting her needs, not reflecting what she's feeling, not responding to what she's expressing emotionally. Right?
• 6:22
  And when that doesn't work, the only way the baby can find attunement is to also turn away and turn flat. So then it's no longer even about what the baby's needs are, but that's how desperately the baby is looking for attunement. And so this goes back to trauma because when we need attunement to be healthy and well and have our needs met But we don't get that. There's misattunement. And when we have misattunement with our caregivers, meaning it's not safe for us to turn to our caregivers to meet our needs or for protection or for safety because they are also the ones harming us, then there's this misattunement that we have to figure out what to do with.
• 7:19
  And we cannot put it on our parents because of all kinds of cultural things about how we're supposed to respect our parents, because of all kinds of emotional dynamics that have to do with abuse and grooming and things like that. But ultimately, because we still depend on our caregivers for shelter and for food and for clothing and for all those kinds of meeting physical needs. And so to protect ourselves, to literally stay alive, we have to choose the caregiver, even though that continues to expose us to trauma. And this is when we're very, very young, is what I'm referring to, when we're very, very young and there's trauma. But because of the misattunement that remains, our needs not actually getting met emotionally or us not actually being kept safe, then that conflict has to go somewhere and we put it on ourselves because it's not safe to put it on our abuser because that just endangers us more.
• 8:33
  Right? And so that's what becomes shame. And there's like a whole continuum to this is what I've learned. It happens with people who have trauma and extreme abuse, obviously. But it also happens with people who just have parents that are not kind to them.
• 8:54
  Or people who maybe a mother goes through postpartum depression. Or is grieving in some way and so not present to welcome joyfully the baby. Or to still care for the toddler with a new baby. Those kinds of things. And so developmentally these things can have big impacts whether abuse is involved or not.
• 9:19
  And so shame has become at the root of our trauma responses as adults, and it's an internal issue as far as where we feel it and where we sense it, but it's actually a two person problem because it's a relational issue, which is why healing can only come with another person. And so whether that's a healthy relationship, like with a partner or in a marriage, or whether that's with a therapist, or whether that's through friendship, but it's also why bad therapy is so damaging and why good therapy is so powerful and why friendship is even better than that. When it's real friendship with attunement and authentic connection and vulnerability and lots and lots and lots of safety. And so I loved this quote when we found it because it was so so powerful in describing that shame experience of what it's like to feel that way and why going to therapy is so hard because it is the exact opposite of everything we've done to keep safe this far, whether that's hiding inside or isolating ourselves or avoiding any kind of attention because any attention was dangerous. And we absolutely couldn't talk about the secrets.
• 11:06
  And so now to be put in a place where we say, this is safe, you're safe here, and now time is safe, And yet also you're the center of attention, and you're supposed to be telling secrets, and there's someone watching you and paying attention to you. There's so many intrinsic triggers just in that relational dynamic that it's no wonder therapy is so hard. Not just because of the content of what we're there to talk about, but because of the process and the experience of exposing ourselves to connection, even if it's in safe ways. So this book, Unshame, I looked up. And if you have Kindle, you can get it for free right now even, actually, or for, like, $4 or something depending on the day and what Kindle you're using.
• 12:04
  But you can get it on Amazon as a paperback or on Kindle as an ebook. There is not an audiobook right now. I looked for that and couldn't find it. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not on the website or on iTunes or any place like that in audiobooks or on Audible. But I did find it, and we have started it.
• 12:24
  And so I think as we read through it, we're gonna share some pieces and talk about them. But we'll also contact Carolyn Spring and see if she's willing to be on the podcast. I cannot promise that. And normally, wouldn't announce that ahead of time of it actually happening. But in this case, because we're sharing the material, I wanted to let you know.
• 12:43
  So she has a website, CarolynSpring.com, And the book that we're talking about is called Unshame, and there's like a tree on the cover if you wanna be looking for it. There's also another book that she wrote. Her first book is about DID specifically, but I have not read that and don't know anything about it. So I can't really, like, recommend it or not or tell you if it's safe or not or anything like that. But definitely check it out if you want.
• 13:14
  But this book, Unshame, also references DID because the first book is kind of a background context, so I guess we're kinda doing it backwards. But the shame piece is what we latched onto and why we wanted to read it. But here are some quotes I wanna read just from the intro so that you can get a taste of it. You are not fundamentally flawed, irrevocably defective, or unworthy of love and belonging. How powerful is that?
• 13:52
  If only we could hold on to that or believe that even for half a minute. Right? She says dissociation is a creative survival strategy that allows us to cope with trauma and the shame inherent in trauma by separating from the overall experience. I love that definition of dissociation because it shows the compartmentalizing that happens but also acknowledges the deep rooted emotion and that deep rooted feeling that impacts our very identity as part of the experience and the need to get away because that's a part of who we are inside when we believe that. And so that's part of why we have to get away even from ourselves, which is the first time I've ever seen that in writing or described in such a way.
• 14:53
  And that's why I thought it was so important to share on the podcast. She said, the shame based strategy of not being me because I believe I am too shameful and unacceptable as me underpins the nature of DID. Wow. Right? Just wow.
• 15:16
  And then in chapter one, this blew me away. She describes so vividly the experience of that first day in therapy. That's what chapter one is about. The whole entire chapter is just about walking into the first therapy session. Are you kidding me?
• 15:37
  Seriously, I can't even tell you how powerful it is. But here's just a part of that chapter. I sat in the very first therapy session, tense, awkward, feeling like I was playing a game of chess and conscious that I didn't know the rules. It felt like a dangerous game to be playing, but I didn't know why. My very existence seemed to be at stake.
• 16:05
  And then she goes on talking about meeting the therapist. Shame was there from the start. This thing in the space between us, holding us apart, keeping us from connecting, stopping me from reaching out to her. How powerful is that? How many times do you like, every time we go to therapy, even though we adore our therapists and feel very safe with our therapists, it's all we can do just to get in the door.
• 16:36
  And then walking into her office, there may be a thousand things that we have put in the notebook or want to talk about what's in the notebook, and we walk in and sit down and it's like crickets, like nothing can come out. And she describes this so well. She says, I don't know how to be. I know that all of me, here, now, and always is wrong. I am filth.
• 17:05
  I am broken. I am dirty, damaged, defective, subhuman. That is who I am. It has always been. But she goes on.
• 17:16
  She says, but she listens. I've not known listening like it before, and I feel like a layer of my skin has been pulled away, and I start to worry she can see me from the inside. She's listening to more than my words. She's listening to me. It's like she's trying to find me and pull me apart to see how I'm made.
• 17:42
  She's listening to what I'm not saying, and the panicked thought in my head, I have to leave. Oh my goodness. Not only have we felt that and thought that every single time, but even this summer we actually did have to leave. Like, we got so close to things and so raw that it was like just barely getting close enough to almost touch it and we were out of there. That's how hard it is.
• 18:09
  That's how hard it is. And we've been in therapy for like two years now, right? And we are just now being able to get in a place to prepare to tackle things, and we still bolted. She describes it beautifully. She says, but there's something about her that makes me want to stay, even though everything in me also wants to run.
• 18:36
  I can't tell you how important it is that we found this right now because we absolutely want to just quit therapy and we may actually have to even just change therapists by default because we have to provide for our family and to pay for a session and to pay for gas to get there four hours away and to pay for that day. Like, the gas two tanks of gas and eating while we're there and on the way back, even if we're very careful and try to bring food with us and paying for the session, it all adds up to about $200. So $200 a week, and that's without, like and that's only with, like, eating applesauce and peaches on the way there and on the way back and maybe taking a soup with us if we can. And so even being super super frugal, at the very least, the minimum, it costs $200 and that doesn't count if we have to stay in a hotel or use our points. And we only stay in the hotel if we have points to use.
• 19:45
  But it's just so far away and it's so hard and it's so exhausting. Whereas where we live in Kansas City, now since we went to that conference with Kathy Steele, we found more therapists that treat dissociative disorders and know about trauma. Some of them good ones, some of them not. But our family has a therapist and everyone sees her except for us and we can see her for free because we have Medicaid in Kansas. And so for a season it was necessary and important and I don't think we did anything wrong and it's heartbreaking to think of not going to therapy in Oklahoma anymore.
• 20:33
  But at the same time, as we get better and as we improve our functioning, it's almost like we've gotten ready for therapy. I don't know how else to describe it. And so if we're going to change therapists now is kind of the critical time to do it and our family really needs that money. Like things have just been really hard and we are working three jobs and the husband is working two jobs but the kids can't stay out of the hospital. And I don't mean any of that as complaining and I don't mean any of that as asking for anything, although we appreciate people supporting the podcast.
• 21:13
  But just being self sufficient and self reliant and trying to use our resources if we were ever going to have the courage to try to talk to this new therapist who knows about DID, who already sees the rest of our family, like now would be the time to make that change. And so we really are having to think about it seriously and it's a hard thing, but it may just be to the point where it's just necessary. And if it's necessary, then she has absolutely the therapist has absolutely made us capable of doing it. There's just grief there, and it's hard, and it's sad. I don't know what that looks like or or whether that's the right thing or not.
• 22:03
  And if I could work enough that we could keep going to her or, work things out where that were possible, that would be wonderful because it's not that anything is wrong or anything is bad or or there needs to be an ending. It's just that our family needs the money and because we've been gone so much it's hard to be gone more just for ourselves. And if we continue to work this much to pay for therapy, then we're away from home too much. We've been gone from home since the October, and we are not even gonna get home until the December, and that's just for the holidays, and then we go back out in January. And so it's a good thing for our family, and it's a good thing for functioning to be working again, and I'm grateful for all of those things but when we're home for just like two days or three days we can't get all the way to Oklahoma for a whole entire day just for a couple of hours of therapy and also see our family.
• 23:17
  And she's only in her office twice a week anyway so those weeks we just miss whereas if I would just finally go and see this lady I can see for free with Medicaid then I can get into her pretty easily because she mostly just sees our family now because there's so many of us. I mean kids, not just inside. And so how to do that or how to engage that, I don't know. But for the first time I'm realizing that we have a choice. What we'll choose and why we choose and how much that hurts or how hard that is, I don't know.
• 23:58
  But it seems like it's more of a practical issue rather than a choice, like a sacrifice for our family or almost something. Like, I don't mean to trigger people or or say anything people disagree with, but it's almost like a god thing. Like, some the universe, god, something bigger than ourselves has sort of arranged this, and it's confusing. And I don't understand what to do with it or why it's happening but it might absolutely actually happen. But that's different than and this is why it matters it's different than running away from therapy And it's different than quitting therapy.
• 24:47
  And so this is new. And so it's almost like we got therapy so that we could do therapy, if that makes sense. And I will absolutely no matter what be grateful for that forever, whether no matter what that looks like. I don't know. But in the book, when she's talking about that first session of therapy, we all know that feeling, and she describes it so well.
• 25:19
  She says, I am overrun with opposites. I want to leave, and I want to stay. I want to tell her more, and I already have said too much. I want her to help me, and I know that she mustn't. I feel like I ought to warn her that in working with me, she will be contaminated, and she will hate me.
• 25:38
  She will peer into the darkness of my soul and glimpse the horror of my badness. And you guys, that's just the introduction in the first chapter. Like, it's so, so good. It's so, so good. Here are some quotes from the second chapter, from chapter two.
• 25:57
  Everything seems strange. She's not sure where she is, what she's doing here. She almost knows this place, as if in a dream. She doesn't know it now. She doesn't know what she's supposed to do.
• 26:13
  Nothing makes sense. She wants to run, but perhaps there is safety here, love here, rescue here, hope. She doesn't dare hope. She stands stuck in the conflict between approach and avoid, wanting to run and wanting to stay. I need to leave.
• 26:35
  I want to stay. Her self loathing for being dissociative is still too high. She hates her parts and wants them out. Pain is like a smog sitting between them, but unshame is in connection, and so connection is where she'll be. You're safe here.
• 26:57
  I'm with you. Shame is a two person emotion and only metabolizes in the presence of a catalyst, another person. And so it comes in therapy where presence is closest. It's a catch 22. Oh, it's so powerful.
• 27:16
  It's so good. I don't even have permission for reading these quotes, so I hope it's not too much. And I'm trying to skip around because if I could, I would just read the whole thing. It's so, so good. It's so so good and so I'm seriously recommending this book although as with any resource make sure that you're taking care of yourself and doing good self care through the process and afterwards.
• 27:38
  Right? But listen to this conversation she has with her therapist. Just part of it. Just part of it. What do you remember from earlier?
• 27:48
  The therapist asked. The woman looks down. Nothing, really. Not a lot. Not much.
• 27:55
  Because she knows there are flashes of memory there, but she cannot bear to look. Shame keeps them at bay. You know, the therapist says, shame drives dissociation, and dissociation drives shame. They are both ways of surviving by disconnecting. Oh my goodness.
• 28:16
  Oh my goodness. It's so good. It's so good. And honestly, that is all I have read so far. Like, as soon as I read it, I had to share it.
• 28:28
  So I can't say anything about the rest of the book, whether it's good or if it gets too triggering or anything like that. I don't know yet. I haven't read it that far. I will share if I learn later or if she's able to come on the podcast. But, oh my goodness, it was so powerful to read a presentation of that experience that reflects my own.
• 28:50
  And it's so beautifully written, and it's so poetic, and it's so moving, and that's attunement. So it's an example of even if you don't have a good therapist yet, and even if you haven't been able to find a safe friend, because both of those things take a long time and a lot of work to sort out and discern who is safe and who is good and who is kind and who can hold you gently without spilling. But even a book, a resource, anything can give you hope because it can reflect your experience and give you attunement. And so we need to be careful and not using being alone as an excuse. And we need to be resourceful and looking through the chaos of the world around us to find what things that we have that are actually helpful.
• 29:51
  And what's helpful for me may not be what's helpful for you. And what's helpful for you may not be helpful for someone else. We're all different and we all had our own experiences and we're all unique. And so our needs are unique. But there are times and places and ways to find that attunement in the world even when you're on your own.
• 30:19
  Like us right now halfway across the world for a whole month with another month to go. And so I'm so grateful that in this moment that has been so difficult because we are so homesick and we are so far from any kind of support, where all we have had are your emails and once in a while text messages can get through if we can find Wi Fi. In this moment, this landed in my lap, a book that says, I know this experience, and this is what it was like for me. And feeling that is a connection, even though I don't know this poor woman who wrote this amazing book, who doesn't even know she's on the podcast. And so, look for attunement and where it's provided, and be open enough to receive that when it comes.
• 31:22
  Because if we're so busy drowning in what's hard, and if we're so busy focused on what is awful, and if we're so caught up in our negative thought patterns, we won't be able to receive the good that comes. And I'm not saying that life isn't hard, and I'm not saying that it's not a challenge. I know it's not easy. And I don't at all mean to minimize any trauma or how difficult your experience is, but I am saying that if we build our castle walls so high and so close that we are under siege from ourselves And don't let in the fresh air, and don't let in the sunshine, and don't let in anything that's nurturing. We can decide for ourselves what nurturing means to us and what is nurturing for us, as well as what's not.
• 32:23
  But when we find the good, we have to let it in. And sometimes, that's really hard, like being in the therapy office and suddenly the center of attention with so much to say and no permission to let any of it out. Or finally having permission and just being unable to do so. I can't tell you how many times in the last two years we went to therapy and said nothing. But that's what created the safe space that made us strong enough to endure what we have, that made us safe enough to connect with others, and that has prepared us to do new things to help care for our family in better ways, even when that means being out of the country, and even if that means having to change our therapist, which is terrifying and heartbreaking, but also may be possible in a way that it never was before.
• 33:36
  And the reason is because what connection and healing and attunement does is give us hope. And when there's hope, we can do almost anything. And if nothing else, hope gives us the courage to just keep trying.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.