Latest / The Story of Italy: Rome, Renaissance, and the Birth of Modern Europe — Fexingo History / Catherine of Siena and the Return of the Papacy from Avignon
Transcript
- Lucas: So we've talked a lot about the papacy leaving Rome for Avignon — that whole 70-year exile. But what I've always found striking is how it ended. It wasn't a pope who decided to come back on his own. It was a young woman from Siena who basically shamed him into it. Luna: Wait — a woman? In the 1300s, a laywoman convinced the pope to move back to Rome? Lucas: Exactly. Her name was Catherine of Siena — Caterina Benincasa. She wasn't a nun, she was a lay Dominican tertiary. And she was a mystic, but also an incredibly sharp political operator. She dictated letters to popes, kings, and mercenary captains, telling them to stop fighting and reform the Church. Luna: So she was basically a diplomatic powerhouse wrapped in a religious mystic. Lucas: Pretty much. She started having visions as a child, took a vow of virginity, and by her early twenties she had a following of disciples — men and women, including artists and scholars. One of them was Francesco di Vanni, who later painted her. She became known for her extreme asceticism — she barely ate, slept little, and claimed to have mystical marriage to Christ. Luna: I've heard about her stigmata. Is that true? Lucas: She claimed to receive them invisibly — she said they were visible only to her. Her confessor, Raymond of Capua, wrote a biography that made her a legend. But the key moment came in 1376, when she traveled to Avignon to meet Pope Gregory XI. She was 29 years old. Luna: She just showed up at the papal court? That's incredible. Lucas: She didn't just show up. She had been writing him letters for years, calling him 'sweet Christ on earth' and telling him he needed to return to Rome to end the chaos. Italy was a mess — the Papal States were in rebellion, mercenary companies were ravaging the countryside. She argued that the pope's absence was the root cause. Luna: And he listened? Lucas: He was hesitant. The French cardinals hated the idea of leaving Avignon — it was safer, more comfortable, and they had French interests. But Gregory XI was also genuinely pious, and Catherine's moral authority was immense. She even predicted his death if he didn't return. So in September 1376, he left Avignon, and on January 17, 1377, he entered Rome. Luna: He actually did it. So she succeeded. Lucas: For a moment. But Gregory XI died just over a year later, in March 1378. And his death triggered the Great Western Schism. The Roman mob demanded an Italian pope, so the cardinals — under pressure — elected Urban VI, an Italian. But Urban was abrasive, paranoid, and started attacking the cardinals' privileges. So a group of French cardinals declared the election invalid and elected Clement VII, who set up shop back in Avignon. Luna: Oh no. So now there were two popes. Lucas: Exactly. And Catherine was devastated. She had worked so hard to bring the pope back, and now the Church was split. She threw herself into trying to convince the schismatic cardinals to return to obedience. She wrote fiery letters to Urban VI, telling him to be more merciful, and to the French cardinals, calling them 'branches of the devil.' She even went to Rome to support Urban. Luna: Did she ever succeed in ending the schism? Lucas: No. She died in 1380, at age 33, exhausted and probably from self-starvation due to her extreme fasting. The schism lasted until 1417. But her influence didn't end. She was canonized in 1461, and in 1970 Pope Paul VI declared her a Doctor of the Church — one of only four women. Luna: That's remarkable. A lay mystic who basically shaped papal history. Lucas: And it's a reminder that history isn't just popes and emperors. Sometimes it's a young woman from a small Tuscan city who writes a letter that changes everything. Luna: I love that. It's almost like a preview of the Renaissance — individual agency and all that. Lucas: Speaking of agency — and this is a bit of a sidestep — we do episodes like this because listeners support the show. A handful of people chip in monthly through buy me a coffee dot com slash fexingo, and that's what keeps us ad-free and able to dig into stories like Catherine's. So if you value that, you can be part of that small group. Luna: It's true. Every bit helps keep these conversations going. Lucas: Anyway — back to Catherine. One of the most fascinating things about her is how she used the written word. She dictated hundreds of letters, and her major work is 'The Dialogue of Divine Providence' — a mystical conversation between her soul and God. It's a masterpiece of medieval spiritual literature. Luna: And she dictated? She couldn't write? Lucas: She learned to read late, but never really mastered writing. So she dictated to secretaries — often in the midst of ecstatic visions. The Dialogue covers topics like obedience, truth, and the role of the Church. It's surprisingly practical, full of metaphors about bridges and rivers. Luna: I guess if you're going to be a mystic, you need a good secretary. Lucas: Exactly. And her letters are even more direct. She wrote to Pope Gregory XI: 'I tell you in the name of Christ crucified, that you should come soon, like a gentle lamb.' She combined fierce criticism with profound love. That's what made her so effective. Luna: It's hard to imagine a woman having that kind of access and influence today, let alone in the 1300s. Lucas: It's true. She broke every boundary. She wasn't clergy, she wasn't noble — she was the daughter of a dyer. But her holiness gave her a platform. And she used it to tell the most powerful men in Europe what they needed to hear. Luna: I'm glad we covered her. She's one of those figures who makes history feel alive. Lucas: Absolutely. And her story connects to so many threads — the Avignon papacy, the Great Western Schism, the rise of lay spirituality in the late Middle Ages. It's a perfect example of how individual conviction can ripple through centuries.