Latest / Let's Talk Small Biz Finance with CIC Tucson / Kiva's Southern Arizona Crowdfunding Hub with Cassie Price | Coffee Chats with Caroline Nelson
Transcript
- Caroline Nelson: That's just gonna bug me. ⁓ but ⁓ whatever. It is what it is. That's why we can edit. This is seriously driving me crazy. I know. Why can we see you, Tina? Cassie Price: Tina's still here. Caroline Nelson: Okay. Cassie Price: ⁓ No, you can stay here. I just didn't know if you'd be like the little you know, the good the good the good one on the shoulder. Caroline Nelson: One way to find out. Cassie Price: Okay. You don't want me to talk over people? This is like this gonna be hard. ⁓ No, I'm teasing. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Caroline Nelson: Here we are. All right. Well, welcome to another episode of Small Biz Finance. Nope, just kidding. Welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Small Biz Finance. Let's talk small biz. Okay, yeah. Just gonna keep talking until I get this down. ⁓ welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Small Biz Finance. Really happy to be here today. ⁓ have you ever wondered about Kiva crowdfunding? I don't know why this episode is so hard for me today. Cassie Price: It i it is hard. Caroline Nelson: It is really it's just not working. Okay, I'm just gonna keep talking until I get it and you can just edit out like ten minutes. Yeah. Okay. All right. Have you ever wondered about Kiva crowdfunded loans? Okay. Have you ever wondered about Kiva crowdfunded loans? Yeah, I think I'm gonna go with what I initially had because this isn't flowing for me. Yeah. More a little more general. All right. Cassie Price: Mm-hmm. It flows a little better. Yep. Mm-hmm. Caroline Nelson: Have you ever wondered about crowdfunding and how it works? ⁓ have you heard of Kiva? No. I'm just whatever. Today's a great day. Cassie Price: it is a great day. Caroline Nelson: Okay. Have you ever wondered about crowdfunding and how it works? ⁓ in particular, have you heard of Kiva and their crowdfunded loans? Well, today is your day to learn more. No, that's dumb. Was that good? Did it? Okay. Today's your lucky day. Okay. Well, today's your lucky day. Okay, we're gonna go with that. All right. Have you ever Cassie Price: That was good. Yeah. Caroline Nelson: Wondered what crowdfunding is and how it works? Have you heard of Kiva and wondered what a crowdfunded loan is? Well, if you have, today is your lucky day because that is what we are here to talk about. Welcome to Small Biz Finance with CIC. My name is Caroline Nelson and I am joined today by Cassie Price. Cassie, welcome to the podcast. Cassie Price: Thank you so much for having me. Caroline Nelson: ⁓ really excited to learn more about Kiva and what goes into crowdfunding. Thank you for your patience this morning as I figure out how to get my words together and try to talk. They can be some days. Today is one of them. So Cassie is the capital access manager here at CIC. Specifically, ⁓ she supports the Kiva program. So Cassie, what is Kiva? Cassie Price: Words are hard. Yeah, it's a great question. ⁓ Kiva is actually a global crowdfunding platform. ⁓ it is here to connect small business owners with ⁓ lenders all across the globe, really. Kiva uses the unique approach of crowdfunding, ⁓ which we can get into that a little bit later, but to you know really unlock the door to capital access for people who might not traditionally qualify for ⁓ standard bank loans, ⁓ whether that's you know people who don't have traditional government issued IDs or people that don't have access to ⁓ business assets to use for collateral or businesses that maybe haven't been in in business for the standard length of like two years that most banks would require. Caroline Nelson: That's awesome. What a great resource. Now what exactly is crowdfunding? We hear this word a lot in the community. ⁓ and when I think of crowdfunding, like the first thing I think of is like GoFundMe. Someone has an emergency and they're raising money. So how does this apply to lending? Cassie Price: Yeah, ⁓ so crowdfunding is is a way to fundraise. ⁓ Kiva loans are completely crowdfunded, so it's it's a way that, you know, whether it's hundreds or less than that, but people are going to we gotta scratch all of that answer. Words. Caroline Nelson: Words. Cassie Price: Yeah, so crowdfunding means that a a loan is going to be backed by anywhere up to hundreds of people making small, small contributions to actually fully fund a loan. So, you know, a $10,000 loan could be backed by 200 individual lenders. ⁓ it is a way to ⁓ fully fundraise the capital. Caroline Nelson: That's really cool. So crowdfunding is just a word essentially of collecting money from a large number of people. And there's different ways that you can crowdfund something. So, right, like you could crowdfund for an emergency, but you can also crowdfund for a loan. That's really cool. That's awesome. ⁓ so tell me more about how Kiva works. Like who's the ideal client for Kiva? I know you talked a little bit about that, but I'd love for you to elaborate more. Cassie Price: Yep, you got it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so the ideal client is somebody who would truly benefit from, you know, a a small micro loan, so up to fifteen thousand, but where they've got a really clear use of of funds, you know, they just need this small amount to to make the next step ⁓ to grow their business. And also somebody who is really well connected in their community. Since these loans are crowdfunded, you need to have a strong network. Caroline Nelson: What this is gonna be edited. Tina we're making your job hard today, sorry. Are crowdfund are Kiva loans canab mm, I don't question I wanna ask. Cassie Price: Gonna go into startups. Caroline Nelson: Yeah. Can a business I I mean, is is a Kiva loan ideal for just newer businesses or really can businesses at any stage raise through Kiva? Cassie Price: Yeah, great question. So I would say any any stage of business would be a good fit for for Kiva as long as you've got that strong network behind you. you know, so if if you're in that startup phase and let let's talk about that a little bit. So what is a startup? There we we talk about startups, but it really is a broad network of whether you're in the idea phase or you just, you know, you already are in business, but you're pre-revenue. So I think for for the purposes of Kiva, you know, both would be eligible potentially, but you might not be eligible for a big lump sum of money. people who are in that idea phase, but they're they're ready to launch, they just need some funding to maybe get registered with the Arizona Corporation Commission or just buy one little piece of equipment to to actually launch their business, that would be a good use of funds. But you're still still considered a startup. The important thing that I'll keep coming back to over and over is making sure that you've got that network behind you, that people are, you know, know who you are, they're ready to support your business. Because especially if you're pre-revenue, you know, we we don't want to make a loan to someone and then get them into more financial debt and and make growing their business even harder. This is meant to take you to the next step. Caroline Nelson: So I've heard you mention this network. Like it's really important to have a network. What does that look like? What exactly does that mean? Cassie Price: Yeah, so one thing that Kiva really looks at is ⁓ your presence in the community and one one of the key ways to do that in today's world is social media. So are you on the different social media platforms and you know there's there's a bunch of them out there and are you talking about your business, whether it's on your personal social media or it's a business account? ⁓ are people interacting with with your posts? Are you know how are people finding you and how how would you be able to share about your campaign too? able to actually fully fundraise it. Caroline Nelson: So this makes sense when you when we talk about this startup phase. Like startup, we just use this term so loosely, but there's so many different levels that a business could be at in this startup phase. ⁓ I mean, some people count a startup as a business, you know, less than two years in existence, but that's completely different from someone in the ideation phase. So I can see now when you're talking about, having a social media presence, this wouldn't be a good fit for someone who's still building their idea because you you haven't launched that yet. But if you are maybe like getting ready to launch your business and you've built that network and you have social media and you're talking about it and getting people excited, I could see how that would be a good fit then because you have people there like excited and ready to go. Okay. what does that application process look like? Cassie Price: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so ⁓ first step I would say would be to connect with me here in Arizona. ⁓ connect with me or attend one of our our Kiva info sessions. The next one is coming up on the 11th of June. and just learn exactly what what we're looking for on a complete application. The application process, it's it's all done online, ⁓ so you do have to have internet access. ⁓ and it takes about an hour and a half. ⁓ we're gonna collect, you know, your personal information. ⁓ we're going to collect all of your like social platforms, website, things like that so we can look into your business more. If you have separate bank account for the business, we wanna see proof of that. Proof of the business registration. ⁓ We want to see One of the most important things for your Kiva application is gonna be your your photo. So this is if you're approved for funding, that's the first thing that lenders are gonna see is your picture. So making sure we've got a high quality photo of you and your business, you know, you interacting with clients, something, something that can capture who you are and what your business is or does. ⁓ and then the next piece of that is your business story, use of funds, your personal story. So again, if you're approved for funding, that story is all that lenders are gonna read. get to know anything on the background ⁓ like looking at financials, credit, anything like that. They just see your picture and your story. So those are two two pieces that are really important to pay attention to the details. Yeah, and so once that application is collected, ⁓ it goes to Kiva underwriting for review. If you're approved for funding, ⁓ your application would move into a period that we call the private fundraising period. ⁓ in this stage, you're you're given a set number of people that you have to get to donate or not donate, I'm sorry, lend $25 at a minimum to your campaign. So it's not a dollar amount you have to raise during this private fundraising period, it's a certain number of people. So let's Say you're raising $10,000, you'll need you know up to 30 or 40 people to actually lend you ⁓ that $25 minimum to your campaign. What this does is it shows that you've got the social capital ⁓ because it it is an alternative underwriting process. So we we want to make sure that you know people do believe in your business and they want to see you thrive. So once you hit that certain number of people, let's say it was ten thousand dollars, you need 30 people to to lend to you at that. point you would then move to the public crowdfunding phase. So then your your campaign actually moves to the global platform where you're you're being exposed to two million people across the planet. Yeah. Caroline Nelson: say I participated in a couple of Kiva campaigns myself and it's really exciting to see once someone hits that public fundraising period, like how fast and how many people come together to support a loan. It like it's really ⁓ just beautiful to so many people coming to support one business and one community. I think that's the power of crowdfunding. Cassie Price: It is. Yeah. And you know, something else I think that is really cool about this crowdfunding model is, you know, while it does take a lot of courage to put yourself out there and and let people know, hey, I'm crowdfunding alone for my business. This is gonna help me grow. it also is getting the name of your business out there, right? So it's gonna just help you. I mean, it's free marketing in a sense for your for your business. Caroline Nelson: ⁓ I hadn't thought of it that way. ⁓ that's really good. Okay, that's great. so in a traditional loan process, right here at CIC, we make business loans. So we're collecting financial documents, we're doing a lot of like analysis and underwriting. So it sounds like the Kiva process does not require that. Like, will a business need to submit any financials or any financial information? Cassie Price: They will. it it's not used in the same way as traditional underwriting would would utilize it. ⁓ but you know, we we will do a soft credit check. most importantly, we're looking at what kind of outstanding debt do you have, because we certainly don't want to get you into more more trouble with adding more debt than than somebody could realistically handle. And then as far as the financials, we want to see, you know, everybody sh should be keeping business finances separate from their personal finances. So if you're able to to show that you're doing that, that just helps promote a stronger application. Caroline Nelson: Okay, gotcha. So kind of all these business best practices ⁓ strengthen the application overall and help you be approved so that you can start your private fundraising with the goal of getting to public fundraising. Okay. Cassie Price: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And the more that somebody can submit to show the strength of their business, the the higher the likelihood of them qualifying for a a larger loan amount. So just because fifteen thousand is available, that doesn't mean even if you apply for that, that doesn't mean that you would qualify for that amount. Caroline Nelson: Okay. So when you apply for a Kiva loan, do you tell them what amount you would like? And they Kiva okay, so Kiva will determine if that amount is possible. Cassie Price: You do. Yes. Yep. You you let them know exactly how much you're applying for and how you're going to use those funds. So you'll break it down dollar amounts. Caroline Nelson: Can you give me a few examples of some use of like some strong use of funds? Maybe what Kiva is looking for? Cassie Price: Yeah. so we've got someone right now on the on the platform that is in the public fundraising ⁓ phase and they are fundraising fifteen thousand. It's a tech-based business and they needed one chunk of the funds is to secure their patent. So that's a very clear use of of the dollars. We, you know, we can see exactly it costs X amount and that's where it's gonna go. Other good uses of funds are, you know, let's say I have a landscaping business and I need to buy a lawnmower. That's gonna cost me, you know, $2,000. It's very clear, this is what I'm using these funds for. you know, you're a coffee roaster, you need to buy a new roasting machine, that's $10,000. Caroline Nelson: Okay. Would an acceptable use be to like totally start up the business? Say I need fifteen thousand dollars to apply for all my licenses, purchase inventory, pay for staff. ⁓ could I use Kiva funds for everything I need? Cassie Price: You potentially the things that you just listed, potentially, ⁓ they they are approved uses of the funds. ⁓ the likelihood of somebody who doesn't have any, we'll call it, putting any skin in the game, right? They're looking for this this fund to get completely started from scratch. They don't have any reserves of their own that they're looking to invest in the business, it's unlikely that someone would be approved for that 15,000. ⁓ more like one to three thousand would probably be where they're where they're at if they truly have nothing for the business. Caroline Nelson: Okay. So it seems like this maybe follows more of just the traditional line of starting a business, you still need to have some of your own funds saved up to support it. And this is just an aid to get you to to help you keep going. Okay. ⁓ now we've talked about fundraising, right? Like getting a loan through Kiva. Let's talk about the flip side of that and people actually lending. So what does that look like from ⁓ do we call them lenders, investors? What is the appropriate Kiva term? Cassie Price: Yeah, so they're a lender. I'm a lender and it's really fun to to contribute to a campaign and watch it go, whether it's in that private phase or the public phase and watch it go to fully funded. ⁓ on that, one other side note that I didn't mention, Kiva loans are are all or nothing. So if you're fundraising $10,000, if you don't fully fund fundraise that loan, unfortunately you don't get anything. So that is something important to say. ⁓ Caroline Nelson: Mm. Cassie Price: So yeah, as a lender, it's fun to watch watch these campaigns move through the process. And, you know, I I lend $25 and I watch, you know, a hundred more people come in line after, or I see a campaign and all they have left is $250 to go. And I I lend my $25 and then, you know, three lenders later now they're fully funded. ⁓ so it's an exciting process. ⁓ on that, you know, as a lender, I get repaid as soon as the borrower starts making their monthly payments. So my $25, that could take up to three years to get repaid that that full $25. But as I get it paid back, I can reinvest it into other businesses. Caroline Nelson: If for some reason I wanted to cash out, am I able to cash out my $25 once it's repaid? Okay. so Kiva, it sounds like Kiva handles all of like they're the loan servicer essentially. So I give my funds to Kiva. Kiva once the loan is fully funded, Kiva then gives the funds to the borrower as the borrower makes the payments, Kiva disperses the funds back to all the lenders, and then I can choose what to do with those funds once I get repaid. Cassie Price: Absolutely. Yes. Yep, exactly. And as, you know, let's say I lend twenty five dollars, somebody makes their first monthly payment, I get paid back, I don't know, 70 cents. I don't know what that math actually breaks down to. But let's say I want to fund somebody else right now, I can use that credit that's already been paid back to go towards my next twenty five dollars. So you don't have to wait until you get the full twenty five paid back. As soon as payments start coming in, you can use that credit on your account. Yeah. Caroline Nelson: ⁓ very cool. ⁓ from an investor perspective, I I think there's some like are there tools or is there like information that investors can see? Like what are kind of the perks to being I keep saying investor. Lender. What are the perks to being a lender? Like Cassie Price: Yeah. I mean, one of the big things I think is just being able to support I mean for for my purposes I like to support the local businesses here. ⁓ but you can actually lend to any business anywhere across the planet. So, you know, whether you know, whatever you might have some affiliation to, some interest that you want to support, ⁓ you can you can search for so many different criteria on the Kiva platform and find businesses that that fit the criteria you want and you can support in that way. ⁓ it is zero percent interest, so you're not gonna make any money. back. ⁓ but it's it's cool to be able to support in a in a way, you know, if I want to support a business in in Turkey and I don't want to travel there, but now I can, right? Something like that. Caroline Nelson: That's awesome. Okay, so it's a zero percent loan. So the borrower pays zero percent interest. That is a deal. Do they pay any fees? Wow. And is any collateral required? Cassie Price: Correct. No fees. No cr ⁓ no collateral and there's not a minimum credit score. Yeah. Caroline Nelson: Awesome. That's really cool. I guess that's the that's the power of crowdfunding, right? Like everyone coming together to support really supports the borrower on the flip side. And so then the lender does not get paid any interest. We're just lending our money at 0%. What happens if someone doesn't repay? Cassie Price: Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, then you don't get paid back. So that that is the risk. but Kiva's system has shown that ⁓ you know default rates stay up above that 90% generally. So that there's a lot less risk, especially, you know, people are asking their friends and family and they they want to pay their friends and family back. Caroline Nelson: So it's part of the overall model, right? Kiva's doing some underwriting. They're making sure that you have a clear use of funds, that you have that network. And then when your network is coming to support you, you are also incentivized, might be the right word, to repay and to so anyone participating in a loan that has gone public also knows that this person has like people invested to support them. Cassie Price: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. And, you know, once at least here for for the local businesses, once I support one, I'm gonna tell people, hey, I lent that business money. You should go and check them out. They're really cool. Right? So the lenders have a personal, personal interest in the business succeeding. Caroline Nelson: I love that. Okay. So CIC is are we a is it a key are we a Kiva hub? Is that what it's called? What? Okay, what does that mean? Cassie Price: We are. We are the Southern Arizona hub. That means that ⁓ anyone, anyone anywhere can apply for a Kiva loan. But if you're going through a hub, you get more of that personalized experience. So I'm gonna work with you to make sure you've got a strong application, that you've got access to different resources across the community if you need, if you need help, you know, building a business plan, if you need help, you know, for any step of the way, I'm gonna make sure you're connected to the right people. And once you have that strong application, then I'll get that submitted to Kiva Underwriting. Caroline Nelson: ⁓ what is the typical tie is there like a time frame? Cassie Price: Yeah, so ⁓ working on an application with me I'd say, you know, anywhere from depending on how buttoned up the business owner is, anywhere from forty eight hours to three weeks to get that, you know, really solid application. and then it can go to Kiva underwriting that can take one to three weeks. once the application is approved, you get to determine when you want to start that private fundraising. So we you want to make sure if you're approved, you've got your list of people that you're going to be reaching out to. And and you can get really creative with that part. Like let's say you've got a birthday coming up and you want to say, instead of giving me a birthday present this year, lend lend to my campaign, you know, or a business anniversary, something like that. You can get creative with when you want to start it. Once you start that Private fundraising period, you have two weeks to get to the number of people that is set for you. ⁓ Once you hit that number of people, you'll go into the public crowdfunding phase where you have 30 days to fully fundraise your loan. So one of the other benefits of working with a hub is we're here to support you. We're here to help share out your campaign and help you reach that fundraising goal. Caroline Nelson: Okay, so total time from when you start fundraising is potentially no more than six weeks, that would be like the max time. If for some reason someone doesn't reach their fundraising goal, what happens? Cassie Price: Mm. Then unfortunately their campaign is closed and they can come back and and reapply or restart the campaign and and there's some little things that we can work on with ⁓ the Kiva underwriting team to see about expediting a campaign, if there's like a clear plan as to, you know, what what went wrong on the first one and what they're gonna do different this time, something like that. Caroline Nelson: So as a lender, if I contribute to a campaign, if I lend twenty five dollars and it doesn't meet the full fundraising, what happens? Do I get my money back or what what happens there? Okay. Cassie Price: You do. Yep. And ⁓ yeah, so you get your money back. ⁓ it could take up to about seven business days once the campaign closes to see that money come back to you. at the same time, if a loan is fully funded, it can take about seven days for the funds to be released to the borrower. Usually it's quicker than that, but ⁓ it could potentially take up to that seven days, and it is ⁓ all done through PayPal. Caroline Nelson: Okay. So do you have to have a PayPal so the the business, the one applying for the loan, do they have to have a PayPal account at the time they apply for Kiva? Okay. Cassie Price: Yes. Yes, they do. ⁓ lenders do not have to use PayPal. You can use a debit card or credit card to lend ⁓ Apple Pay, I think Google Pay, ⁓ or you can use PayPal or all the different ways that you can lend. But as far as a borrower, ⁓ funds will only be released to a PayPal account, which you must have at time of application, and then your repayments are all done through PayPal. Caroline Nelson: Mm, okay. Very cool. ⁓ so I've heard about this Kiva collective. What exactly is the Kiva Collective? Cassie Price: Yeah. ⁓ I'm super excited about the Kiva Collective because I think it's an opportunity for us to bring ⁓ business owners and lenders and just local community all together. We're looking to do pop-up events. We had our first one a couple weeks ago, and it was so much fun to see all these business owners. You know, we had a dozen or so pop up, not a single one knew ⁓ somebody else there. ⁓ and just to watch the business owners interacting with each other. able to share out from my perspective share out about people that are fundraising on the platform ⁓ letting business owners know about kiva as a resource and cic as a resource and letting the business owners support each other sharing their stories of what you know things that they've experienced you know if they need support in certain ways so you know it's just the pop-up kind of thing to help help build community so ⁓ it's a social club for a cause yeah Caroline Nelson: I love that. So is this just for business owners or people who are interested in lending? Can they show up as well? Cassie Price: Yeah, everybody can show up. The more the merrier. Caroline Nelson: That sounds like a good time. ⁓ if someone wants to learn about being a borrower or a lender, what should they do? Cassie Price: Reach out to us at CIC. So I can I can be reached by phone or email. The email is Cassie Cassie at cictucson.org Or the phone number is 520-529-1766-Extension 200. ⁓ We're also on on our website, cictucson.org slash kiva Caroline Nelson: Very cool. Thank you. And we will include that information in the show notes as well. ⁓ I think I meant to ask this. We talked about earlier I'm struggling with words today. ⁓ when we were talking about the CIC hub. So what's the benefit? Well, you said the benefit, I guess, of working with the hub directly is or applying through the CIC hub? Words. They're really hard. Help. Cassie Price: They're hard. That is one of the benefits of working with the Hub. I will help you with the words so that your application is strong. Caroline Nelson: Cassie. Can someone apply for Kiva without going through the hub? Okay. So Cassie Price: They can. Yes, absolutely. ⁓ I I can't speak to what the experience will be if they're not coming through our hub. ⁓ but it is open to anyone across across the country. And while important to note too, ⁓ Kiva is a global platform. The Kiva US product is slightly different, so ⁓ it does have a different process and a different underwriting team than the rest of the the platform does. Caroline Nelson: Okay, that's important to know. Cassie Price: if a business is located in the US, you're you're welcome to go through ⁓ through Kiva US hubs ⁓ or US program. But let's say, ⁓ let's you live in Arizona but your business is is based in Mexico, you would not be eligible. ⁓ Caroline Nelson: Okay. So Kiva.org is the main Kiva website. Okay. So if you would like to go through the Southern Arizona Hub, if you want to work directly with Cassie, if you would like her to help you with your words, clearly she is helping me significantly today with my words, ⁓ you can contact Cassie directly. You can explore Kiva through the Kiva website, or you can go to the CIC website and learn more as well. Awesome. Is there anything else that people should know about Kiva? Cassie Price: It is. Got it. ⁓ I would say the only thing I w would like to add is if if it's not something that you need, but if if you know other small business owners, share the resource. ⁓ because it is, you know, global. So even if they're not here in Arizona, it's a resource that could help. Caroline Nelson: Okay. Okay. So I want to make sure that I ⁓ am absorbing this correctly. So Kiva is a sounds like an incredible resource. Both helps you with lending, but a lot also helps you market your business. ⁓ 0% interest, no fees, loan, up to $15,000. Ideal for businesses at any stage, ⁓ newer or existing. ⁓ but really that have a very clear use of funds. So essentially you need one more thing to get you to the next step within your business. And you want to have a strong social network. So you want to have social media, you want to have people ready to go that are willing to invest in you during that private fundraising phase so that you can get to the public fundraising phase and have the support of our entire community and potentially the entire globe. All right. Cassie Price: You got it. Caroline Nelson: All right, any final parting words, Cassie? Since you have the words today? Cassie Price: ⁓ There are periodic matches on Kiva. We didn't we didn't get into this much, but specifically one that's very unique right now. Anyone who identifies as native or indigenous or has gone through the Dream Builder or Dreamcatcher programs is currently eligible for a five-to-one match on Kiva if they're approved for a loan. This is amazing. I have seen loans, you know, up to 15,000 fully fundraised in 24 hours because. So yes. Caroline Nelson: That's incredible. Now geographically is that just in Arizona, southern Arizona? Cassie Price: all of Arizona for what I know, I but I believe I believe this match is is national right now. So Caroline Nelson: if you're in Arizona and you meet those criteria and you're interested in ⁓ a loan out to Cassie. All right. Well, Cassie, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for talking about Kiva. This is a really incredible resource, and I'm so grateful that we have it here in the Southern Arizona community. All right. Thank you everyone. ⁓ thanks for tuning in to Let's Talk Small Biz Finance, and we'll see you next month for a new episode. Cassie Price: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.