Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 336 - Jolyon West, MK- Ultra, & The CHAOS Theory

Transcript

JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 336 - Jolyon West, MK- Ultra, & The CHAOS Theory · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know what he's up toys picking me like chicken,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: shocking me like corn, storing me like an ice dum,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and he ain't putting outing.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Don win the back of asshole grab You ain't never
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: had that, you little bristle.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: I'll dig off the griff on asshole. Whistle the end,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: you gifferent things so all night long.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: Now the disruptor in Chief Elon has adopted the alias.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: At least he changed his social media handle to Harry Balls,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: tweeted this morning, democracy in America is being destroyed by judicial.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: Yoyo.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: It's your boy, the Tesla King, Elon Musk, the boys
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: always making my rocket shoot straight up. No, homo, you
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: bout to listen to the number one JFK related podcast.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: On planet Mars.
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: Now plug in your neural link for two numb nuts
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: who aren't a waste of government spending, The Triple B
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: and Joe By.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: He Is the Tories and Jobs Shops, and it's from
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: a Brave and Robes and Joby Rock County job Brady
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Timmis and Joby's Jobs, and then from Bebay and Trummer
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Beats and shoeb Frock Donkey.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Job Brandy.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Charming dollars set in.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: Bad shame, Jay, nothing five jos to sell them, Joe
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Kill we go.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: And here we go? You did? You did? Okay, Now
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: I've shook everything in the damn house loose. Welcome to
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: episode three thirty six of the Lone Gum And Podcast. Yes,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: we are sponsored by Silk City Hot Sauce and it
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: is delicious, although sometimes it does choke me up a
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: little bit. Woo mydn't it.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: Got a good one there?
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Huh buddy, Yeah, Bud, this pepper is rocking me. Yeah.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: It's episode three thirty six. This is a low Guma podcast.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: It is Friday night, It is seven o'clock Eastern, and
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: we are here barely Joe before I die live on
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: the air, Please welcome everybody in while I recover.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Well. Yes, Happy Friday night to everyone. We have a
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: fun show planned out for you today. But first, hello
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: bungled mister Alpha fifty six. Mike Scott Edwards is ultra ready.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Scott's comments are just goaded. Paul Cummings, Good evening, sir, Salah,
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: good evening to you. Hew comes to play Bloody Benders Lee,
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Good evening, sir, and South to West Rob might have
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: got dosed before this episode. You never know based on
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: his background lighting, you never know. And Colleen's everyone's favorite
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: rocket queen. Hello Colleen, and let's see Paula.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: How are you.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: I'll trade the Johnson and the Guts guy to get Yeah,
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: Dean back. She was here earlier in the comments. I'm
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: sure will be here. There's still muted, Rob. It's been
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: muting you automatically.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Just I see this on my I know, brother, I'm
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: still dying over here.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Okad Okay, I wasn't schure if it was doing automatically, Trey.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Let's see who else? Tiny dancer clocking in at seven
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: oh two fifty seven or forty nine, pretty much on schedule,
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: mister Jack Taylor, and I'm sure more will come in.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: And Brandon, one of our newest covert operators. I believe
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: good evening to use her muted Hell yourself, Yeah.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: I know, Joe.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: I I can't tell if that. I can't tell if
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: you're talking, but I'm coughing.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I'm cursing.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: I see it and look look at talks. Okay, that's
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: what threw me off.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Man. Remind me to lay off those last minute bong hits.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Bro Lord Almighty for this episode, it might be appropriate.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: You know. Well, I think I'm somewhat back to normal.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I think, I hope. Now, when we previewed this episode,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Joe I threw out a little bone to everybody, but
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I want to reiterate it before we even get started,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: because it's a very interesting nugget or nugget right whyn
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: God pardon me? WHOA? All right? So I came across
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: a document labeled top secret CIA document from December the first,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three. Now this is way way back, ten
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: years before the Kennedy assassination. I know that, excuse me,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: but god damn. It has some very interesting anecdotes in it.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: And it talks about LSD. That's what I mean. This
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: thing is all about LSD. And it's an Inspector General
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: memorandum for the Inspector General on the use of LSD
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, and it's talking about LSD.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And I believe one of Sydney Gottlieb's aliases was doctor Gibbons.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I forget what his first name was supposed to be,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: but he says doctor Gibbons has impounded all LSD material
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: and CIA CIA headquarters in a safe adjacent to his desk.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: No one else in the has accommodation to this safe
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: The material was soll impounded. On twenty nine November nineteen
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: fifty three, Doctor Gibbons stated that he is stopping any
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: LSD tests which may have been instituted or contemplated under
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: CIA auspices. A cable will be sent to the field
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: on December the first, nineteen fifty three to reflect this effect.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Only two field stations, Now, this is what caught my attention, folks.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Two field stations. For the reason, Manila and at Sugi
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: have LSD material. There is none in Germany, although mister
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: William Harvey recently expressed an interest in the subject.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Of course he did West Germany.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: That would be a cable to the field on December first,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three one in struct the field as to
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: non use and request data as to how much is
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: on hand and who has custody and access. Now, the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: reason Manila and is Sugi caught my attention is because
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: those are two places that Oswald went when he was
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: in the Marine Corps, just a mirror five years before
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: this memorandum was written. So at Suki had LSD, Manila
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: had LSD. That's the Philippines, And it's interesting that Oswald
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: was in both places. Now, it doesn't mean anything, doesn't
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: mean they gave him LSD. But when you're talking about
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: the secret experiments that the CIA was doing and using
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: LSD four, I'm sure over the years some people have
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: speculated that, you know, maybe Oswald was coerced into, you know,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: doing certain things. You know, it's possible. There's been talk
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: over the years of programmed assassins Manchurian candidates, call them
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: what you will, and we know all this it's a
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: very far fetched idea. But how far fetched is it really?
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: And I just thought that that was interesting. M uh
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: And and the whole reason that this memo came out, Joe,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: excuse me, let's see where was it now is the
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: CIA has furnished a limited quantity of LSD to mister
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: George White, Chief of New York District Narcotics Division, Treasury Department.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Doctor Gibbons does not know the exact amount in mister
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: White's possession. White is fully cleared according to doctor Gottlieb
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: or doctor Gibbons, which brings us to I believe mister
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: George Hunter White is a is an important figure in uh,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: and some of the story lore and being the history
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: of U. M K O. Sure in mind control in
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: the CIA. So Joe, why don't you get as kicked
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: off on that while I still die over here? Slowly?
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Sure? Into George Hunter White? Or do you want to
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: be going to get into the history?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: No, just start wherever you want man, all right, cool, well,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: all right.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna start at the beginning and we'll get back
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: into George Hunter White because he has some very interesting
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: connections here. But essentially, mp Ultra did not start as
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: mp Ultra. It started as Project Bluebird in nineteen forty nine,
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: and Protect Bluebird was the first structured, comprehensive, integrated CIA
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: mind control project, involving both domestic and overseas covert activities
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: designed to study enemy techniques and test them on selected individuals,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: including potential intelligence agents, defectors, interesting refugees, prisoners of war,
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: and quote others. Under this early program, experimental psychoactric drugs
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: and hypnosis were used. The objective was to prevent secret
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: information from being distracted from CIA agents. A CIA document
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: indicated that Bluebird material was not fit for public consumption,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: and so Project Bluebird kind of morphed into Project artit Choke,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: which was also in operation similar to that which was
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: developed and acted by the United States CIA for the
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: purpose of researching methods of interrogation, and Artichoke arose on
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: in August nineteen fifty one and was operated by the
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence. The primary goal of Project
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: Artichoke was to determine whether a person could be involved
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: plitarily made to perform an act of attempted assassination. Again interesting,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: The project also studying the effects of mind control and
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: hondosis forced addiction and subsequent withdrawal from morphine other chemicals
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: including LSD to produce amnesia and other vulnerable states in victims.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: That is not fun.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: Artichow gathered information together with intelligence divisions of the Army, Navy,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: Air Force, and FBI, and in addition to the scope
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: of the project, the memo dated nineteen fifty two January asked, quote,
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: can we get control of an individual to the point
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: where he will do our bidding against his will and
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: even against his fundamental laws of nature such as self preservation?
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: So really kind of lays out very clearly what what
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: what the goals of this program were and it's fitting
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: that it's said not fit for consumption. So I'm going
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: to bring up that one document now, and this is
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: that one from nineteen fifty two, and again blue bird,
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: Bluebird and artichoke kind of morphed into each other, and
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to read a couple of the couple
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: sentences from this for the past several months or subject
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: signed special research, bluebird general problem. For the past several months,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Bluebird has been endeavoring to ascertain by research, study, instruction,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: and some practice would value if any can be derived
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: from you know, my control techniques. When applied, they use
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: some acronyms there, SI and H I think the age
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: of hypnosis when apply to war and specific agency problems.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: These brought problems using these techniques may be classified as follows.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Can accurate information be obtained from willing or unwilling individuals?
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Can agency personnel or persons of interest to this agency
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: and quotations be conditioned to prevent any outside power from
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: obtaining information from them by any known means? Can we
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: obtain control of the future activities, physical and mental quotations
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: of any given individual, willing or unwilling by application of
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: these techniques? Can we prevent any outside power from gaining
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: control of future activities physical and mental of agency personnel
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: by any known means through internal agency channels. Bluebird was
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: given the name of I think this is to choke,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: but it's redacted, and it goes on to say kind
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: of more of the same. Bluebird officers were unable to
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: find any indications of deviousness of pro Soviet interests during
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: these observations. It's a little further there, and so this
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: is the specific problems in relation to Bluebird set out below,
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Our specific problems which can only be resolved by experiment, testing,
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: research as proposed in the paragraphs above. These are not
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: in any sense all the problems, but it's merely typical
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: and point up the need for practical research. Can we
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: quote condition end quote any suspect or on agency employees
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: or persons of interest to prevent them from giving information
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: to other unauthorized sources. Can we, in a matter of
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: an hour, two hours, one day, etc. Induce hypnosis condition
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: in an unwilling subject to such an extent that he
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: will perform an act for our benefit long range right,
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: long long term goal. There it's not going to happen immediately.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Can we create a post control of any action contrary
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: to individual's basic moral principles, and can we seize a
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: subject and in the space of an hour or two
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: of hypnosis have him crash an airplane, recor train, etc.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: So I thought that was really interesting in terms of
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: the Bluebird document. So that's how it started Article Choked,
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: and then it went into MK Ultra in.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Early nineteen fifty three. Are you still alive on me there?
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Un Now, I'm alive, although my stupid camera is not. Yeah, yes,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: fuck thing, I swear.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: It's okay, So I'll just read one more quick. Then
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: at the end of nineteen fifty two, as the CIA
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: was rounding up experts to conduct project research for Project Artichoke,
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: one of the locations the top of their list was
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Air Force Base Lackland and San Antonio. The reason they
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: were drawn to Lackland was likely twofold. It was where
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: incoming trainees were Psychier Rinckley screened, where questionable Air Force
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: candidates and pre flight candidates were more evaluated. Second, the
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: new chief of the Psychiatric Service had arrived in Lachland
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Air Force Force Base in nineteen fifty two, and his
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: name Rob was Jolly West and he had just completed
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: his residency in New York City and found himself on
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: this Air Force base that was uh was the center
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: of a lot of questionable experiments. And he would go
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: on to had the Human Ecology Fund, which funded mp ULTRA,
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: and co authored a bunch of comprehensive reports on communist
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: interrogations and indoctrination methods aka brainwashing. So that's kind of
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: the And I'll get into a little of mk ULTRA
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: and how it was found after or I could do
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: it now, and.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Let me just jump in and say that, you know
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of these early testings were done without the
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: subject's knowledge. You know, prisoners, military people, you know, people
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: that deemed to be expendable. You know. It wasn't like yeah, prisoners, Yeah,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like this was they were doing all this
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: above board. It was it was bad stuff and.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: People who couldn't complain or who wouldn't be listened if
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: they would.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And then the in the in the case of
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: like you know, military people, you know, they do what
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: they told by the government. You know, they if they're
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: gonna slip some LSD into your mashed potatoes at dinner,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and you really have no say in the deal, you
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, So neither do the prisoners. Yeah,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: and there and there was something really bad that happened
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: at Lachland. I think Jaye will get into here in
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: a minute.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: So yeah, uh well, uh, let's see. I think the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: first incident here, even before that incident, incident at Lachland,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: was of course an incident I'm sure a lot of
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: you guys are familiar with, and that happened in nineteen
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: fifty three, and that was the death of doctor Frank Olsen.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the likely cause of this memo that I
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: just read from the CIA.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Was because of that.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So the start of these projects and operations didn't
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: go well. And when the Church Committee ended up looking
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: into this incident in the mid seventies, they came up
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: with a pretty definitive summary of what happened. And I'm
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: going to read a pageot two from it here now
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: on doctor Frank Olsen, and it has to and this
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: is official Church Committee, you know, book one of their results.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Here Before you do, Joe, let me just jump in.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And like I said, the memo that I read here
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: is basically calling for an all stop on the CIA directly,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: directly overtly using LSD or testing it. And they didn't stop,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: but they started using cutouts, you know, kind of like
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: they used the mafia to try to kill Castro, right,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: so they couldn't be directly implicated. They used cutouts like
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: George White and Jolly and West and many many others
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to carry out the LSD testing, the mind controlled testing.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: The hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that so that a lot of this stuff
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: couldn't come back and bite them directly. But yeah, this
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: didn't stop just because this memo went out. It just
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: means that the uh CIA directly stopped overtly their own
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: testing and then kind of farmed it out as we'll see.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a good point with the kind of
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: bad pigs analogy because it's it's kind of the same thing.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: It's from the same playbook.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Right right. It makes me actually, we do it. We
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: can have we can have these cafus do it. Yeah,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: back to it exactly. We'll give them the LSD and
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: then they can do all the heavy lifting and then
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: report back and paid them an exorbitant amount of money
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: to do so. Yeah, well, as we'll find out as well.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: So yes, sir.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: So.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. This is a little snippet here from the Church
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: Committee Book one Summary Findings whatever it's called. The death
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: of doctor Frank Olson. The most tragic, tragic result of
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: the testing of LSD by the CIA was the death
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: of doctor Frank Olson, a civilian employee of the Army
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: who died on November twenty seventh in nineteen fifty three.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: His death followed his participation in a CIA experiment with LSD.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: As part of this experiment, Olson unwittingly received approximately seventy
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: micrograms of LSD in a glass of control he drank
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: on November nineteenth fifty three. The drug had been placed
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: in a bottle by a CIA officer, doctor Robert Lashbrook,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: as part of an experiment he and doctor Sidney Gottlei
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: performed at a meeting of Army and CIA scientists.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: A Joe quick note the dates. Okay, Frank Olsen died
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: on November twenty seventh. Okay, he was dosed on November nineteenth,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: eight days prior to his death. He was dosed so
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: bad he was still tripping eight days after they dosed him.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: He was probably in a bad way, very bad way,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: very bad trip. No sleep for eight days. It's the point.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: So that's a good point.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: And he was he was dosed to his gills. Yeah,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: seventy micrograms is a ship ton of LSD.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just about to say, I don't know
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: how much a microgram is, but I think it's more
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: than seventy of those little squares that you would get
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: at a Grateful Dead concert, you know, like one.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: It has one hundred hits on it. It'd be like
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: eating seven of those, yeah, you know what I mean.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And they're they're going to go into some of this,
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: uh in the couples and in the report here. But
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: it's interesting that they decided to perform this experiment at
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: a meeting of Army and CIA scientists. So all the
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: nerds are getting together, let's, you know, let's all do.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Acid something kind of like a They went on a
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: little treat, you know, kind of like in the woods
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: somewhere and we're hanging out and just you know, kicking it.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: And yeah, that's when all this went down.
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it gets into this Shortly after
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: the experiment also had exhibited symptoms of paranoia and schizophrenia
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: accompanying yes really accompanied by doctor Lashbrook. Olsen sought psychiatric
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: assistance in New York City from a physician, doctor Harold Abramson,
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: whose research on LSD had been funded indirectly by the CIA.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: While in New York for treatment, also fell to his
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: death from a tenth story window in the Statler Hotel.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: And the worst part of this, Joe, is he didn't
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: know that he'd been dosed. It's one thing if you
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: know that you're fucked up, you know, and you're fucked
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: it's a whole other thing to not know, and just
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: to be all of a sudden thrown into that mental state.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Like yes, and somehow he made a trip, you know,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: to New York, trip in balls?
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: Did it happen in New York? Did the did the
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: conference happen in New York?
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Honestly, the way I remember, and it's been such a
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: long time, I thought it happened in Maryland.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Okay, you could be right, that would be safe. Yeah,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: maybe he saw the doctor in New York. Maybe we'll
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: say it and answer a question in the next page.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Here Camp or Fort Dietrich Camp Ditrich as it was
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: known back then. Yeah, it was in a cabin, it
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: says right there at deep Creek Lake, Maryland.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, yeah, so the experiment. On November eighteenth, nineteen
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: fifty three, a group of ten scientists from the CIA
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: and Camp Dietrich attended a semi annual review and analysis
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: conference at a cabin located at Deep Creek Lake, Maryland.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so they were they want a little retreat
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: out in the woods in Maryland.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: So, I guess he made a trip to New York trip.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: Well, I think they. I don't think he made a
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: trip to New York, Rob. I think they probably took Yes,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: the guy abrabsoon that thing I just read. Yeah, he
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: had been his he had been funded indirectly. So I
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: think he had some some expertise which is like, oh god,
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: this guy's screwed up here, we have to take them
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: to to this doctors.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: Obviously that helped it not work. No, According to one
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: c I official, the Special Operations Division participants agreed that
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: an unwitting experiment would be desirable. This account directly contradicts
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Vincent Ruey's recollection. Ruey recalls no such discussion and has
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: asserted that he would remember any such discussion. Blah blah blah.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: In May nineteen fifty three, Richard Helms, assistant Deputy Director
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: of Plans DDP, held the staff meeting with the Chief
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: of Technical Services staff, which the chief of that staff attended.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: At this meeting, Helms indicated, quote indicated that the drug
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: LSD was dynamite and that he should be advised at
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: all times when it was intended to be used. In addition,
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: I think after.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: After Richard Helms became the director for like two years,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: he didn't even know that mk ultra was a thing
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: like they did. It didn't tell him, He never knew allegedly, Yeah.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: I didn't hear that. From what I From what I
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: know and what I'll talk about in a little bit
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: with Gottlieb, it seems like he was kind of in
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: on this swim the beginning, and as we'll get to later,
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: he was also a person that destroyed the documents in
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy three exactly that were only found by accident.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: So Gottleeb went ahead with the experiment with I guess
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: that's implying with Helm's approval, right, because this was in
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: November the experiment in May, Richard Holmes held staff meeting
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: says if anything's being used, let me know, right so
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: that would definitely contradict his not knowing. According to gottlieb quote,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: a very small dose in quotations of LSD was placed
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: in a Battle of Control, which was served after dinner
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: on Thursday, November nineteenth. The drug was placed in the
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: cra by his associate. All but two of the participants
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: received LSD, so I think that's eight out of ten.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: One did not drink and the other had a heart condition.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: S About twenty minutes after that they finished conform got
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: to leave, informed the other participants that they had received LSD.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: He might just be saying this for the committee, but
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: that would be shitty either way. If you got seventy micrograms,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: then Gottlie walks in and goes, hey, by the way, guys.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course nobody would know what the hell
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: it is even if they did tell him, you know that,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I mean back then, it wouldn't have really meant much
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: to them.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Well, even if they had You're right, even if they
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: had even like known vaguely what it was, they would
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: have no idea what they read for.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: No especially, I mean, if he's still tripping that band
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: after eight days. It wasn't It wasn't a quote small toast.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Somebody screwed up with the dropper on that one.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's see what got to leave Hester's say
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: about Olsen's behavior. Got to Leave stated that quote up
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: until the time of the experiment, he observed nothing unusual
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: in Nelson's behavior once the experiment was underway, and got
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: to leave recalled that quote. The drug had a definite
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: effect on the group to the point that they were
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: boisterous and laughing, and they could not continue the meeting
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: or engage in sensible conversation, where the meeting, especially scientists,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: man to be a fly on the wall for that one.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: The meeting continued until about one am, when the participants
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: retired for the evening. Got to Leave recalled that Olsen,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: among others, complained of wakefulness oh shit during the night.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Going to Gottlieb on Friday morning. Aside from some evidence
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: of fatigue, he observed nothing unusual in Olsen's actions, conversation,
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: or general behavior. This guy, Ruett calls Olson appeared to
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: be agitated at breakfast, but that he did not consider
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: this to be abnormal under the circumstances the death. Because
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: they could not obtain air transportation for a return trip,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: on Friday night, so they're talking about from New York
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: to back down in Maryland. Last Brook and Olsen made
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: reservations for Saturday morning and checked in to the Statler Hilton.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: Between that time they checked in and ten pm, they
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: watched television, visit the cocktail lounge with each other, where
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: each had two martinis and dinner. They're talking about I
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: think they're talking about Alton. Olton was cheerful and appeared
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: to enjoy the entertainment. He appeared no longer particularly depressed
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: and almost as almost a doctor Olsen I knew prior
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: to the experiment, and.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Then he had a horrible flashback thanks to the two martinia.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Keyword there almost yeah, that's that could have redone it.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: That's true, Rob, especially with that dose. After dinner, Loshbrook
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: and Olsen watched television for about an hour and eleven.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Olsen suggested that they go to bed. Olson then left
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: a call with the hotel operator to wake them in
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: the morning. At approximately two thirty am Saturday, November twenty eighth,
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Lashburg was a weakened by a loud crash of glass.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: In this report on this incident, he stated only that
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: Olsen had crashed through the closed window blind and the
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: closed window. Okay, he closed the window blind and closed.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: He went through the blinds in the window and felt
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: to his death from the tenth floor. So yeah, not
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: a good start to operations when you have an army
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: scientist jumping out the window. There.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: So a lot of people, a.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Lot of people speculate was this a murder or was
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: this a suicide?
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Well, Scott's got a good point. Air says he wasn't
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: still tripping, just psychologically damaged. They may have pushed him
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: out the window because he was having more qualms about
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: the program than he was part of. Quite possible too.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Well that that brings me right the question I was
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: gonna say, do you think he was pushed or do
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: you think he was he felt?
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not dude. It could do funny
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: things to you when you can't sleep, man, And you know,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: lack of sleep is bad, especially compounded with you know,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: the mental implications of being dosed that if you know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: without your knowledge that harshly, Yeah, for sure. I mean
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: people would do almost anything to come down if they
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: can't come down, you know, not that I would know
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: or anything, Yeah, but you know, you do get that
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: feeling you do you would do anything just to be
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: able to stop tripping so hard, you know what I mean? Yep,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: like just you just want to get off the roller
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: coaster at some point and maybe I couldn't take it anymore.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: It was just like all right, fuck it.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And the thing about you know do saying is
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: that you don't control how long it lasts. And you
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: could do you know, you could do some things like
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: smoke or drink and maybe help it out. But if
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: you have seventy micrograms in you, I mean whatever. So
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: to that guy's comment, Scott's comment, if there was some
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: evidence that he was having moral qualms about the program,
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: and I don't know if there is or isn't, that
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: would affect what I'm about to say next. I'm not
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: sure it's a murder. I can't go that far.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Yet, but.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: I think it's just as likely he jumped out that window.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know, but I don't have no idea. Yeah,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: I'm speculating, I guess, but I mean.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: It woud seemed pretty stupid on this other guy's part.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: If he did murder the guy, I mean, he's stayed
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: in the same room as him. You know, so, yeah,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, the veil of suspicion is gonna come. And
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it was heavily on him. You know. The
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: answer is either yeah, for some reason this got jerked
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: him at of bed at two thirty in the morning
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: through hi out the window, or this guy has been
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: laying there for three hours and can't fall asleep and
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: he's like, all right, screw it, I'm done. I went
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: off this trip. I am done. And sion Ira.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So definitely not a good start.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: They killed him, you know, whether it was I don't
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: know that that is.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: That is a very good point, sir. And before you
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: get into Jolly West, I'm going to talk about an
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: incident really quickly that happened not that long I have
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: for this incident. Yeah, and that is the incident of
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: a man named Jimmy Shaefer.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Who has directly involved Jolly West. And wasn't nineteen fifty four.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Yes, sir, July fourth, nineteen fifty four.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, So this is the year after and during the
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: year after, the CIA put out this memo saying all right,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: we're not doing this anymore, and they started farming it
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: out to people like Jolly and West, and these psychiatrists,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: and they said, all right, you guys do your own
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: testing and all of that. We'll give you. We'll supply
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: the product, we'll pay you to do it, and we'll
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: give you subjects. So Joe pleasee yep.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: And that's why I want to read this really quickly,
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: because it segues perfect in jolly West And to your point,
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: it was about seven months after the previous incident regarding
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: Frank Olsen, so on the night of July fourth, fifty four,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: San Antonio, Texas was shaken by the rape and murder
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: of a three year old girl. The man accused of
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: these crimes was Jimmy Shaver, an airman at the nearby
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: Lackland Air Force Base with no criminal record. Shaver claimed
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: to have lost his memory of the incident. The victim,
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: three year old cher Joe Horton, had disappeared around midnight
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: outside of the air force base, where her parents had
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: left her in the parking lot outside a bar where
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: she played with her brother while the parents were had
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: to drink inside.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Great parents, by the way, but didn't deserve for this
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: to happen?
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, if they were at an air force bar,
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: like a bar right outside the base.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: And a lead three year old in the parking lot
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: while you're at a bar drink and I don't care
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: where you are.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: I'm not making excuses. From what I read earlier, it
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: was a heat wave and they needed a drink to
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: put a bit. Within an hour, the group came upon
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: a car parked next to a gravel pit. Cher's underwear
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: was hanging from one of the car's car doors. Shaver
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: wandered out of the darkness. He was shirtless, covered in
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: blood and scratches. Making no attempt to escape, he let
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: the search party walk him to the edge of the highway.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Bystanders described him as dazed and in a trance like state.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: What's going on here, he asked. He didn't seem drunk,
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: but he couldn't say where he was, how he got
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: in there, or whose blood was all over him. Meanwhile,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: the search party found the girl's body in the gravel pit.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: Her neck was broken, her legs had been torn open,
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: and she had been that bad thing. Hard Deputies arrested
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: Shaver twenty nine. At twenty nine, he was recently remarried,
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: with two children and no history of violence. He had
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: been at the same bar Horton had been a from
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: but he left with a friend, who told police that
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: neither of them were drunk, though Shaver had seemed high
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: on something. Before deputies could take Shaver to the county jail,
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: a constable from another precinct arrived with orders from military
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: police to assume custody of Shaver. Investigators interrogated Shaver in
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: the morning. When his wife came to visit, he didn't
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: recognize her, still trip and balls, he gave his first
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: statement at ten thirty am that was part of the article,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: adamant that another man was responsible, he could summon an
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: image of a stranger with blonde hair and tattoos. After
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: the Air Force Marshall returned to the jail house, whatever,
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: Shaver signed second statement, taking full responsibility. Even though he
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: didn't remember anything, he reasoned he must have done it.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: Two months later, in September, Shaver's memory still hadn't returned
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: bro Forget Ten days later. Two months later, this dude's
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: still driven. The commander at the base hospital, Colonel Robert Bray,
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: ordered a psychiatric evaluation to be formed by doctor Lewis
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: jolly On West, he had of psychiatric services at the airbase.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: It fell to West to decide if Shaver had been
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: legally seen at the time of the murderer. Shaver spent
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: the next two weeks under West's supervision. They returned to
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: the scene of the crime trying to jog his memory. Interesting, now,
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: do you think that was for the investigation or for
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: West's experiments?
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Hypoetical, This is definitely a West experiment.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, But I'm saying, like, how how often do you
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: let her murder suspect? Especially if a three year old
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: girl return to the scene to jog the memory? Right,
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: it seems like another operation is here, that's going on here?
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Want to him and see what do you see? What happens? Well?
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: Right, right, That's exactly my point. Later, West hypnotized Shaver
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: and gave him an injection of sodium penthal or truth serum,
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: to see if, yeah, to see if he could clear
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: his amnesia. While Shaver was under this truth serum, he,
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: according to testimony, recalled the events of that night confessed
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: to killing Horton. She brought out repressed memories of his cousin,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: Beth Rainbowt, who had sayed him as a child, Shaver
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: had started drinking at home the night he envisions of
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: God and whispered to something weird. At the trial, Jolly
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: West made only a minimal effort to exonerate Shaver. The
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: airman was found guilty, though later through an appeals court
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: ruled that he had had an elmfair trial. Regardless, was
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: convicted again in a retrial in nineteen fifty eight, and,
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: on his thirty third birthday, was executed by the electric chair.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: He maintained his innocence the whole time.
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: Interesting, not off to a good start in the fifty
• 43:16
  Speaker 5: three and fifty four Huh, No, of course it's.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: Been going for a couple of years. But maybe when
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: they first took it to the field.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Well, this is very early. I mean this is six
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: months after the CIA was like a hands off, yeah,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: you know, and doctor Gottlie was like, okay, let's farm
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: it out. And then this happens, really, you know, relatively
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: within seven months.
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Crazy. We don't know whether or not this guy Shaver
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: was a patient of West before this happened or not.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, So actually I have an interesting antacdote to that,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: and it's later in the article. I don't feel like
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: going down and reading it and wasting your time. But
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: Shave had chronic migraines, and in his in the trial,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: his wife said that he entered an experimentary experimental program
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: to help his migraines.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Well, there you go.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: You jog my memory there, Yes, so sometimes y're successful,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: most some times not.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: It's a difficult task.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I can't discover that. So yeah, so insert
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: you know, a bad situation happens, and insert Jolly and
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: West to kind of play cover up as the psychiatrist.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: And we will see this again later in the episode
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: Rob and later in the case with the name that
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: will be familiar to everyone. And he inserted himself into
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: that situation as well.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well or was he brought there by certain Yeah,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: that's it's certainly by someone. Yeah, I mean, this guy
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: seems to be in the weirdest place, is at the
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: weirdest times, you know, uh, involved with some of the
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: weirdest people. So let's see here. So, of course, while
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: mk Ultra was going on, it was a highly top
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: secret program, you know, And of course all of this
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: didn't really come out until the early seventies for the
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Church Committee, and it was.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: The Church Committee, the Rockefeller Committee, and the Pike Report
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: or something, and currently it took all three of them
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: to uncover this.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the majority of the mk ELTRA documents were
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: destroyed at the direction of Richard Hilmes. Of course, the
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: ones that we do have remaining slipped through the cracks
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: in different places here and there, and that's why we
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: do have some of the ones that we have because
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: doctor West vehemently just denied any involvement with the CIA
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: until his dying breath. But after he passed away, he
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: donated all of his papers.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: To ULA.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Was the UCLA, Yeah, I believe it.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Was two hundred boxes, wasn't a rob or something?
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was director of the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: from sixty nine to eighty nine. So yeah, that's where
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: all his papers are at. And that's of course where
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: what's the guy's name, Tom O'Neill. Tom O'Neill got most
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: of the access to these Jolly West papers and nobody
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: had ever seen before. They're not online. You have to
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: actually go there request these documents to see them. And
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: what he saw there was crazy, you know. Yeah, you know,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: hence hence the big hullabaloo. And if you haven't yet
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: read the book Chaos by Tom O'Neill, I highly recommend
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: it and his chaos theory, and we'll touch on it
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: tonight a little bit. Also, there was a recent documentary
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: that came out on Netflix about the same thing, and
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's a very good documentary, highly recommended.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, can we touch on that for a second, sure
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: documentary because you gave that to me as homework and
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: I then gave it to our members on homework on
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: Wednesday night. And I hope hopefully some of you the
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: members read it or watched it read it. But that
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: is that is crazy. I mean Manson. The thing that
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: stuck out to me on that was Manson gets released
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: from prison, right, thanks John, Hey, John, thank you so much.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Manson gets released from prison, he's on parole. He goes
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: to San Francisco, which, of course where he meets or
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: where he goes has interaction with the Asbury Free Medical Clinic.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: And that's because he was you know, he had a commune,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: all these girls and he went to them for that
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: clinic for their venereal diseases.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: I get some girls cleaned up before I stick.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: It to him, Yes, And of course who was working
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: at that clinic.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Want little Childie to get sick?
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: Yeah, maybe maybe abortions too at that point, but Jolly
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: West was working at the hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic.
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: He had an office there. And Manson gets arrested half
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: a dozen times in San Francisco on parole and loose
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: never never gets violated for his parole.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Never.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: He then moves down to l a right where he
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: has a he goes to those U shant whatever it's
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: called commune thing and yes, spawn ranch, thank you sir.
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: And you know, of course the tape murders happened the uh,
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: the couple after the next night and all this. Yeah, yeah,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: so apparently the LAPD were investigating the rancher's role in that,
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: but they were rated for a different reason like a
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: few days later, according to the documentary, and they were
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: arrested for a bunch of the Manson and a bunch
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: of the girls for stolen guns, stolen cars, underage girls,
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: and stolen credit cards in Manson's pocket. Yeah, yet still
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: not charge, not violated or charged for as violated brol
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: or charged.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: So this is a theme here and and what the
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: documentary raises is is there's something else going on here?
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: Was there someone?
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Well again, Joe, you have to remember that even though
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Jolly and West was in the Hate you know, this
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: free clinic, he didn't stay there all the time. Okay,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: because again from nineteen sixty eight to nineteen eighty eight
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: he was at UCLA Los Angeles, which puts him in
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: back in the proximity of the Manson family at the
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: time of the murders. So yeah, here in serious stuff.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: But we'll get one more thing.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know who the prosecutor was in that case, sir.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Bougliosi Helter Skelter, which is a whole bunch of
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: other bullshit, right.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: Well that they tried to say it was he tried
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: to start a race war, right, Yeah, and that was
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: kind of the official narrative. But and then it kind
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: of went to don't let your kids get on dangerous drugs,
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: don't let them join communes, don't let them quote march
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: against the war, right as the hippie movement that will
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: lead to this. So you can see how this is
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: all kind of falling into place into agency priorities.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: So it's it's a fascinating documentary. I just wanna And
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: it goes into.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Coach progression of things in the sixties. Was you know,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: it started out the kool Aid acid tests right in
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: like sixty four or sixty five with Ken Kazy and
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: the Bus, and they have these acid test parties and
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: the Grateful Dead would play at a lot of these
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: parties while they themselves were tripping balls. And of course
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: all this activity in San Francisco that kind of came
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: together around the hate Ashbury section of San Francisco was
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: very psychedelic based, very LSD centric. I mean back then,
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: you know the culture considered. Yeah, you know you have
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Hendrix there, you have Janis Joplin there, and the
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: list goes on and on. But you know, all these
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: figures were there promoting you know, anti war sentiment, uh,
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: free love, drugs, you know, tune in, turn on drop
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: out mentality and things that started to get out of hand.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: I think is what they what they realized. So the
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: one way to curb that is is to frame this
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: whole Manson thing as an anti to all of all
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: of what's going on. And it did. It scared a
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: lot of people.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anti incid to know to San Francisco, right or
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: it's California.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Don't let your babies grow up to be hippies. You know,
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: don't don't smoke weed, hm, you know, and and the
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: whole nine. It didn't work very well, but they kind
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: of they kind of went the other way one they tried.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: And there's a whole other fast thing that that ties
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: into all this, you know that. I think Allan wrote
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: his book a long time ago and it called Program
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: to Kill, which which kind of looks at all of
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: these serial killers and whether or not they were programmed
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: a sad you know, not assassine, but programmed to do
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: what they do, you know, as a means of terrorism,
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: you know. And it's a very interesting idea very interesting book.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: To check that out if you haven't.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and did you hear Manson's voice is they had
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: a couple of his songs on there and he almost
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: scored a record deal. He actually wrote a couple of songs,
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: one of them the Beastie Boys put out but didn't
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: give him credit.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: You mean the Beach Boys. The Beach Boys, yes, not
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: the Beastie Boys. Well, he has a little story I
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: like to tell about three bed uh and uh did
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Beach knows so will? It's done a way back in history.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was crazy because uh uh you remember
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: we talked about this. I think it was the on
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: the Alton Auctionner show Doris Day, we talked something about her.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, her son, Terry Melcher was one of the ones killed.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: That's Sharon Tate's house.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: No, it wasn't the one killed. He moved out.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it was his house, and.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: I guess Manson had thought he still lived there, which
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: is why he sent the girls and and that guy there.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so very interesting stuff. Definitely check out that documentary.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: I want to get into that before he went to Chaos.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: Which goes into another one of Dave mcgown's weird scenes
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: Inside the Canyon, which is another good book what kind
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: of explores all the post hippie going is on in
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: Laurel Canyon, you know really Yeah, it's very good, you know,
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: like David Crosby and the doors and all the kind
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: of crazy stuff that's going on there. All right, So
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: you done there, Joseph, I am okay. So Jolly West
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: was you know, he started off in Oklahoma, moved to
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Los Angeles, and then he started going back and forth
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: to the hate section of San Francisco, and you know,
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: he was conducting LSD experiments. This entire time, he was
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: corresponding with Sidney Gottlieb, you know, thanks to you know,
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: finding his letters and in his uh in in his papers.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: And what's interesting about that.
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: Let's see here.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: The sorry I got so much shit on this.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: Yea, which kind of confirmed his correspondence with here is yeah,
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: corresponding to his participation participation.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: Gottlieb's replies came on letterheads from ket Camero Phil Associates,
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: a front company he used to corresponding with M. K
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Ultra some subcontractors. He says, my good friend, he wrote,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: I've been wondering whether you're a parent rapid and comprehensive
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: grasp of our problems could possibly be real. You have
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: indeed developed an admirably accurate picture of exactly what we
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: are after, and for this I am eternally grateful. Got
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: Leave saluted his new recruit by saying, we have gained
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: quite an asset in the relationship we are developing with you.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: West returned the camaraderie, saying, it makes me very happy
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: to realize that you consider me an asset. He replied,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: surely there is no more vital undertaking conceivable in these times,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: so he was very happy to be doing what he
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: was asked to do for his country, right, Yeah, you
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: know there's all these crazy stories of him killing a
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: seven thousand pound elephant, you know, in Oklahoma before he
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: moves to La by giving it, let's see, and over
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: dose of LSD roughly one thousand, four hundred and thirty
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: five times the quantity one would have given to a
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: human to produce for several hours a marked mental disturbance.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, the elephant collapsed in agony minutes later and
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: died not hours minutes crazy.
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: So what happens when you let scientists, when you give
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: car belongs to these nerds and be like it.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: Says now, of course, you know when you're when you're
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: dealing with this type of substance drug, if you will,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: one would think that you gotta take a little bit
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: of it just to see what all the hubbub is about.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: So West had ingested the mind altering substance himself shortly
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: before he killed Tusco the seven thousand pounds elephant, which
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: was the prize of the old Colahoma City Zoo. Oh.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: He was dosed when he did that, Yeah, and was
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: evidently still under its influence at the time he sloshed
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: through the beasts and trails performing an autopsy he recorded
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: on film while tripping on LSD. What the actual whoo?
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine that, Joe.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: Doing an autopsy on an elephant while you're tripping, That
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: you just dosed the hell out of them? No, that
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: that might be too much for me even wow wow uh.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: He later issued a report to advance his discovery that
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: elephants could be killed with LSD to remote use of
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: the drug to call elephants herds in Africa despite a
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: bullet doing the exact same thing and probably a lot cheaper,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: just saying jolly. West moved on, changing his base of
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: operations from Oklahoma to LA and keeping with intelligence proposals
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: to utilize prisons as experimental laboratories, he drafted a plan
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: to use electric shock and drugs on state inmates in
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: what was called quote aversion therapy. In the nineteen sixties,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: West could also be found at the hate Ashbury section
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: of San Francisco conducting more LSD experiments, this time within
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: the hippie community. A pet project of West in the
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: late sixties and early seventies was the Center for the
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: Study of the Reduction of Violence. He proposed to establish
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: a quote, securely fenced center at a remote abandoned Nike
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: missile bake base in the Santa Monica Mountains, and keeping
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: with earlier plans by the CIA to set up mind
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: control stations off the beaten path where experimentation could be
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: carried out free from such concerns as human rights test. Ironically,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: West embarked on a PR campaign to promote himself as
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: a champion of quote human rights, an effort there would
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: be comical if not for the bottom line in terms
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: of the human suffering that he was doling out.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: West and the animals.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. West plans for such centers were the subject of
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: hearings by the US Senate Committee won the Judiciary in
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, chaired by Senator Sam Irvin, whose members
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: were alarmed it reports their West planned to test radical
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: forms of behavior modifications, mind bending drugs, electric shock, implementation
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: of electrodes directly into the brain, and forcible castration with
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: the drug cypro terrone ascetate. Critics charged that his violent
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: centers would target Blacks and Mexicans in the studies. Other
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: sites selected for West violent centers in California were Vacaville, Camarillo,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: and at Tescadero State Hospitals. It has been documented that
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: CIA drug and radiation experiments did take place at Vacaville.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: And what's interesting here, I believe it was at the
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: Atascadero State Hospital that alleged Zodiac suspect Arthur Lee Allen
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: spent some time in the mid sixties saying, just saying.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: Yet another study that Wes called for was clearly aimed
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: at intelligence agency application remote monitoring and behavioral control. His
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: plan was to use electric shock and other means to
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: remotely control human behavior. So the thought was to remote
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: control human beings, to be able to by using a
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: series of electric signals or radio waves, be able to
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: control people's movements, you know, and thoughts, crazy stuff.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: So, between nineteen seventy four in nineteen eighty nine, doctor
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Jollyanne West received at least five point two million dollars
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: in grants from the federal government. Now doesn't say what
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: he made before this from the government for doing everything
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: he was doing in the fifties and sixties. But you know,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: five point two million in fifteen years ain't bad, you know,
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: I'll take it.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: Uh, they were funneled through the National Institute of Mental
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: Health the NIMH, a major funding conduit for CIA programs.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: Many millions more poured into the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute that
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: West headed. Of course it did, yes, okay, of course
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: it did, including fourteen million in federal funds in one
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: fiscal year before he stepped down in nineteen eighty nine.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: Wait, how much before he stepped down?
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Fourteen million?
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: Oh like you going away present?
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Almost yeah, yeah, thank you for your service. Thank you,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Gary for your service and your super chat.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: Appreciate you, Thank you so much, Thank you so much.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: Bro.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, rock. But before stepping down as director of the
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: neuro Psychiatric Institute, westerportally allowed psychiatric treatments that were more
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: suited to brainwashing, mind control, or torture chamber then for
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: resolving mental troubles. It was reported in nineteen seventy six
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: that the Neuropsychiatric Institute psychiatrist Ir loved Ass I love
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: ass too. Had you used the electric cattle prods for
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: a version therapy on children? Well, yeah, of course that's
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: gonna work if you. Okay, if you have a child,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: a five year old child say and you say, hey,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: five year old child, Little Tommy, don't go near that window.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Stay away from that window and don't touch it. And
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: little Tommy goes over to touch the window, and you
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: take a cattle prod and you shove it in his
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: back and you shock this shit out of him, and
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: then little Tommy's gonna get the picture real quick as
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: anybody would. Don't go back near that window, or are
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: you gonna get the cattle prode again? Why is this
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: even a test? You know what the result is going
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: to be unless little Tommy is special and doesn't can't
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: put two and two together, you know what I mean?
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you're not. There's a much deviation from that, No,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: from the normal control.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: One newspaper stated at the time, Feral Instruments Company, the
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: same firm which supplies other shocking equipment for UCLA's quote
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: clockwork Orange experiments on three to twelve year old boys,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: recognizes that aversion therapy techniques are often cruel. Oh shit.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: An example, the company says, is the use of cattle prize,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: which have high voltage that produces skin destruction, not just
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: irritation or destruction.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: Doctor Love and his partner, doctor George Recker, however, favor
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: the use of and have used cattle prides on children
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: who are not mentally ill or criminal, or who have
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: not violated any law or rule, young boys merely thought
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: to be effeminate. So they're gonna shock you straight, Joe,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: every time you think about that other boy, you're gonna
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: get the cattle pride son.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: Oh, I guess they didn't continue with that research, huh.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: Love ass hired by Jolly and West, also allegedly shocked
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: five year old twins to modify their behavior, with jolts
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: administered through a grid system on the floor that enabled
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: the psychiatrists to blast the children whenever they moved somewhere
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: in the room they were not supposed to. I mean,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: this is like shit you do on mice, you know
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: what I mean. And they're doing this with small children.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: This is insane. Despite the violence that marked the work
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: of West and his cohorts, or perhaps because of it,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: he enjoyed influence in the psychiatric community, serving, for example,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: on the National Advisory Council to the NIMH, the National
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: Institute for Mental Health. From his positions, he could have
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: charted a far more humane and helpful course for mental health,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: rather than brain damaging drugs. And physically harming electric shocks.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: As part of his legacy, the National Institute on Mental
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: Health continues to squander billions in taxpayer dollars to fund
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: research on brain damaging substances rather than genuine cures. The
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: true cost, impossible to measure in money, lives in the
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: Americans now dead from psychiatric drugs and electric shock therapy,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: or still living, existing as little more than vegetables. So
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: crazy stuff. Now what they an interesting thing that they
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: were trying to do, Joe, and I believe this is
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: when I say they, the CIA, the Jolly West could
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: help them create couriers who could carry a long and
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: complex message embedded secretly in their minds somewhere to be
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: retrieved at the end, you know, at the end station right,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: So say, you know you're over here at Rob's house,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: and I want to get a message to Erica, all right,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: but I don't want you to know what I want
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: to tell her.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: You dose me, you tell me, I.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: Dose you, I hypnotize you. Whatever I do, I plant
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: the message in there, and I let Erica know. Hey,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: look when Joe gets there, clap three times and punch
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: him in the nuts. And he was going to give
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: you a message and he won't remember giving it to you.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: So there's human couriers, yes, you know, like or if
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: you have secret information that you wanted to transfer from
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: person to person, it's too sensitive to you know, go
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: over the phone lines or the TELEXX or tell you
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: know whatever. Yeah, you know, you implant something in somebody's
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: mind and they don't even have to know you did it,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: you know, and once you get to the other end,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: that person knows how to retrieve that memory from you.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: And then also erased the fact that you know that
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: you just gave him this message.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: Right, and do you know how? I think they did it,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: Rob And this might be what you're going to say, repetition,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: the same that same message said over and over and over.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: And I think I've read something to what you're reading.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: And you know what that made me think of, huh
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: RFK must die right, No, I'm not joking. It made
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: me think that because then he haven't written down like
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: a time.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily a message to be curried somewhere else,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: but the concept ought and planted in somebody's mind that
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: keeps talking and telling them something but they don't know
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: where it's coming from yes. And you know if you
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: hear this in your head over and over and over again,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: you know it's going to drive you insane or to
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: the point of doing something about it.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: And you know not that I believe that syr and
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: Syrhan killed RFK, don't get me wrong.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah no, but to your point, like so, Erica would
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: have some way to when I got to her, get
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: that message out of me.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she clapped three times and punching the nuts and
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: you sp right out, You go into a trance, and
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: you'd be like Rob told me to tell you, and
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: then she would know the right way to uh gets
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: you back out of your trans state and you wouldn't
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: remember anything. Yeah, crazy, crazy, So And of course he's
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: having these correspondences with Sidney Gottlieb, and he added in
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: one of his letters, he's needless to say, the experiments
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: must eventually be put to test in practical trials in
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: the field. And to this end he asked Gottlieb for
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: some sort of carte blanche Joe.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: Carte blanche Statler. We're hitting all the things.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: And who would the guinea pigs be? West listed four
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: groups Basic Airmen, volunteers, current patients and quote others, possibly
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: including prisoners in the local jails. Only the volunteers would
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: be paid. The others could be unwilling, and though it
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: wasn't spelled out unwitting, it'd be easier to preserve the
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: secrecy if he were quote inducing specific mental deal disorders
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: and people who already exhibited them. This means taking bad
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: people and turning them even worse. Well, somebody's branded.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: Thank you for gifting five memberships smooth memberships and Alfa
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: Alpha got one South to Westuh, I got one. I'll
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: have to give one back here umbrella man and like
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: katango so awesome. Wow yeah wow, Well, thank you, Brandon.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna try to give one back because
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: I of course don't.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: I've never seen that before, but that is awesome.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, no, that's a that's a big thing.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: And it does it randomly, so obviously right gave one
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: to me. Uh, it doesn't randomly. I've seen it happen
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: on like some of the true crime channels.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, Brandon, thank you, And let me also interject
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: here in case for everybody here, if you are a member,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: even if you're a spook, you can go back and
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: watch Wednesday Night show. We made it. We made it
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: available to every level of membership, from spooks to covert
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: operators to superspies. So even if you're a spook you
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: don't know you can't normally catch our Wednesday show, you
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: can catch this past one. So go back and give
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: it a watch. It was a bangers, as they normally
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: all are, and we try to do that. At the
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: last Wednesday of the month, we make it available for
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: all members just as a thank you and to see
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: what you're missing the other three Wednesdays of the year
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: or of the month. Yes, yes, so yeah, that's awesome,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: thank you, awesome, awesome, awesome.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm gonna do?
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: What are you gonna do, Joe, Let's see if this works?
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: Oh wait, hops, uh, just continue, I'm gonna let it
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: be a surprise.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, So yeah, he was. You know that we
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: were talking about who the guinea pigs were going to be.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: Certain patients requiring hypnosis and therapy and suffering from dissociative disorders.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: Trance's fugue states amnesias might lend themselves to our experiments.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: Official investigations in the the NK alter yielded little information
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: about it subjects, but West letter suggested the program cast
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: a very wide net, and it wasn't just going on
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: here in the United States either. I believe there was
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: some Canadian psychiatrists as well, and probably people around the world.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: That Montreal and McGill universe specifically, I believe.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, all right. So we got through that. Um,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 7: we got through that steam Olahoma medicals.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: We got through that.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 5: That.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. So. Jolly West was an officer in the United
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: States Air Force Medical Service from nineteen forty eight to
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: fifty six, attaining the rank of major and while assigned
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: to Lakeland Lackland Air Force Base. After his residency, he
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: was appointed to a panel to discover why thirty six
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: of fifty nine airmen captured in the Korean War had
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: confessed or cooperated with North Korean allegations of war crimes
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: committed by the United States. Amid speculation that the airmen
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: had been brainwashed or drugged, West came to a simpler conclusion, Well,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: we found enabled us to rule out drugs, hypnosis, and
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: other mysterious trickery. He observed there was just one device
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: used to confuse bewilder and torment our men until they
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: were ready to confess to anything, and that device was
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: prolonged chronic loss of sleep. The airmen avoided being court
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: martialed for these events as a result of Jolly's West research.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: Interesting he completed his residency in psychiatry at Cornell University
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: in psychiatry and it was an Mchaoltry institution and the
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: site of the Human Ecology Fund. He later became a
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: subtractor for mcha Altri Subproject forty three and the recipient
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: of a twenty one thousand dollars grant by the CIA
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: while he was chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: the University of Oklahoma. So this was, you know, early sixties,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: late fifties.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: HM.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: The proposal West submitted by West was entitled uh psych
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: psycho Physiological Studies of Hypnosis and Suggestibility, with it with
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: an accompanying document titled Studies of Dissociative States. We already
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: talked about the elephant. Yes, we already talked about San
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: Francisco crash pad. All right, let's talk Joe a little
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: bit about Jack Ruby. Yes, okay, So I have here
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: the report of the examination of Jack Ruby done by
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: Jolly and West in April nineteen sixty four April twenty six,
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: to be exact, and we're going to go through it
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: for sure now. In watching this documentary on Netflix, this
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: Chaos documentary, they didn't go into specifics, but they alluded
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: that in the time since he published his book Chaos
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: and the time of this documentary, they have come across
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: more documentation that brings Jolly West to Dallas as early
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: as November twenty ninth, nineteen sixty three. Okay, this is
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: five days after Oswald's shot by Ruby, which is relatively
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: quickly and hasn't been known before recently. But in this
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: April twenty six report, we're gonna go through some things
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: here he talking about. On my way down to visit
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: with Ruby, he was going through previously reported examinations of
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: Ruby by other specialists, but was unable to read them
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: until earlier today. On the airplane ride to Dallas tonight,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: my own findings make it clear that there has been
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: an acute change in the patient's condition since these earlier
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: studies were carried out. Upon arriving at the jail this afternoon,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: I met Sheriff Bill Decker, who informed me that last
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: night after midnight, mister Ruby had tricked his guard into
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: stepping out to get him a glass of water, and
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: then had run and struck his head against the wall.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: It's not clear whether or how long the prisoner was unconscious.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: According to the sheriff, mister Ruby had subsequently been taken
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: to the hospital, where a physician examined him, including the
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: X rays of the skull, and stated that he was
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: without serious injury. So Ruby apparently had ran into the
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: wall so hard he knocked himself out. I mean, you
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: gotta you gotta hit hit the wall pretty good.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he almost thatt like uh as fast over running
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: speed as you can within a cell.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: Right, mm hmm. But they, I said, they examined him,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: x rayed him without serious injury. It was also said
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: that mister Ruby had been caught stripping out of the
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: lining of his prison guard, apparently to fashion a news
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: for himself. So he was taking the lining out of
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: his prison jumpsuit and then squirreling it away and fashioning
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: a noose to supposedly hang himself. Psychiatric examination. This examination
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: was undertaken in a private interview room. Ruby appeared pale, tremulous, agitated,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: and depressed. Said to be uh. Usually meticulous in his appearance,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: he now was more disheveled and unkempt as he ever
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: appeared before. He stared fixedly at the at me with
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: an expression of suspicion. His pupils were markedly dilated. There
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: was a large huh, that's a sign, A sign, that
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: is a sign. There was a large abrasion on the
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: top of his head. An area on the left cheek
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: appeared swollen and reddened. At first, he was unwilling to
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: be left alone with me, and seemed to anticipate some
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: terrible news or fearful event. However, it was possible gradually
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: over the course of an hour to obtain a reasonable
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: sample of the patient's mental content. This can be summarized
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: as follows. Last night, the patient became convinced that all
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: the Jews in America were being slaughtered. This is in
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: retaliation against him, Jack Ruby, the Jew, who was responsible
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: for quote all the trouble. Somehow, through an awful mistake
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: and the distortion of misunderstandings derived from his murder trial,
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: the President's assassination and its aftermath were now being blamed
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: on him and him alone. Thus, he himself was now
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: also the cause of the massacre of twenty five million
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: innocent people. He had seen his own brother tortured, mutilated, castrated,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: and burned in the street outside the jail. He could
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: still hear the scream. He had seen and heard many
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: other similar horrors. The orders for this terrible pogrom must
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: have come from Washington to permit the police to carry
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: out the mass murders without federal troops being called out
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: or involved. Attempts to persuade the patient that these beliefs
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: were incorrect or the symptoms of mental illness aroused his anger.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: He became more suspicious of my sincerity, and once or
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: twice seemed about to attack me. He repeatedly intimated that
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: he was being mocked or conned by me, since I
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: must know all about the things he was telling me.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: Don't tell me you don't know about it. Everybody must
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: know about it. He kept repeating that after what happened
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: last night, there was nothing more in life for him.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: He had smashed his head against the wall in order
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: to put an end to it. Whether it was the
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: genocide raging across the land or his own personal torment
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: that could be thus terminated was not clear. Attempts to
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: discuss addiction, psychiatric examinations, or the pending hearings, or his
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: perspective appeal or a new trial were fruitless. He felt
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: the talk of a new trial was just a mockery
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: after what happened last night, and that he would be
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: rotten and despicable to want to survive or be saved
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: after having caused a great people with a history of
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: four thousand years to be wiped out in a night.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: I persuaded the patient to let me invite doctor David Candish,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: one of his attorneys, to step in the room and
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: then watch the two talk something for a while. As
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: the lawyer continued to describe motions for the appeal, mister
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: Ruby became increasingly agitated and clearly paranoid as it dawned
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: on him that mister Candish, whom he had trusted, was
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: now quote pretending not to know what happened last night
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: to all the Jews. Attempts to carry out many of
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: the more formal aspects of a mental status examination were
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: now impossible. The patient was oriented in place and person,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: but perhaps not for time. He was non responsive to
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: many inquiries. Concentration was poor, associations and continuity of thought
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: were disrupted. Some material pertinent to his shooting of Oswald
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: was elicited, but is not included in this report. That's
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: a little sauss. At this time, mister Ruby was obviously psychotic.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: He is completely preoccupied with his delusions of persecution. On
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: his account, he feels hopeless, helpless, worthless, and guilty because
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: he is to blame for the mass murders of his
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: own people. The experiences of last night are not grossly delusional,
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: but include auditory and visual hallucinations as well. His emotions
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: are abnormal. Feelings of anxiety, depression, guilt, suspiciousness, and despair
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: are expressed in various proportions. Often the effect is inappropriate
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: to the ideas accompanying them diagnostic impression, acute psychotic reaction,
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: paranoid state, manifested by delusions, visual and auditory hallucinations, suspiciousness, agitation,
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: inappropriate affect, unshakable fixed preoccupations, depression, suicidal impulses, and impairment
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: of reasoning, judgment, concentration, and progression of thought. Ideology not
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: fully determined. The stress of the patient's recent life situation
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: is undoubtedly an important factor. Other contributing factors, including organic
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: brain disease chronic or acute should be explored. Prognosis for
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: the present acute psychotic reactions fair if proper treatment is
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: promptly instituted, recommendation immediate psychiatric hospitalization, study and treatment, close observation,
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: suicidal precautions. So obviously it sounds to me, Joe, that
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: in a quite timely fashion, somebody dosed this shit out
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: of Jack Ruby the night before Jolly and West shows
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: up there to evaluate him. And this could be indirect
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: response to aploy by his attorneys for a retrial or appeal,
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: you know, on grounds that he is mentally unstable, criminally
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: insane or whatever. You know. I'm sure he would rather
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: be found not guilty by reason of insanity, or at
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: least be put in a psychiatric hospital rather than jail,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: you know, with the opportunity to possibly be treated and
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: released in a couple of years. This all smells of
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: me to employ, because as we know, Melvin Belli was
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: one of his or became one of his attorneys. I
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: believe he was recommended by Tom Howard, one of Jack
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: Ruby's early lawyers, and I believe he was likely consulted
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: or brought in early, you know, on the deal and
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: Melvin bell I was from San Francisco. She was California,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: of all places. He was also very he got very
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: tangled up in the Zodiac murders. Yeah, he famously got
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: a alleged phone call from the Zodiac Killer and a
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: Christmas card or something I believe from the Zodiac Killer.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: And he may he may have been on the television
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: show when he got allegedly the Zodiac called in and
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: was talking to Belly. So again, all this stuff is crazy, right,
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: all these crazy connections, it's crazy. So you know, programmed
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: to kill heye Ashbury, you know what I mean, like
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: Mason Zodiac you know.
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so no for sure. So just to put the
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 3: timeline back into perspective, jolly On West, as you alluded to,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 3: had some as close as five days after the assassination
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: or I guess his assassination of a murder of Harvey
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 3: Oswalt on the twenty ninth, when his first alleged involvement
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: in Jack Ruby's mental status came when he started convealing
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: this panel to start to you know, give some type
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: of consensus medical panel, right of course, roll spooks, you know,
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: to weigh in on this, right, But his actual visit
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 3: to Jack Ruby in Dallas jail was late April, right
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 3: the twenty sixth. Believe Jack Ruby testifies to the war
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: On Commission in Dallas June seventh. I believe so. Essentially,
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 3: the way I look at this is, if you don't
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: want anything not above board to come out, you can't
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 3: exactly a predict what Jack Ruby's going to say. And
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 3: you know, Chief Chief Justice Warren is down there, you
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 3: know a bunch of other people in the World Commission.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 3: How do you make him seem crazy? Well, he does
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: a shed of him.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: Great, you have discovered knocking himself out in the jail cell,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: you know, describing these horrific events. It can't possibly be
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: happening that he's hallucinating. You bringing in one of the
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: one of the foremost experts in psychiatry, you know, Jolly
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: and West to examine him at this point and determined
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: that he is not so crazy. Uh. It is interesting
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: that he put that Ruby's pupils were extremely dilated. You know,
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: that's a dead giveaway to somebody who's tripping balls.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Do you want to know a funny story about
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: that rub A few years ago, I got pulled over
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: and the cop goes, your pupils are like ridiculous, Like
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: I've never seen pupils that big, Like you're high, and
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: like I was trying to tell him, like nah, back
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: in the day, I went to music festivals, like it's
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 3: it's not like now, you know, Like I was trying
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 3: to like say it like subtly. He didn't believe it.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: He ended up giving me a bunch of tests and
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 3: let me go. But uh I was wasn't dosing, of course,
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 3: but it was funny because yes, that that made me
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 3: think of that when you're when you're pupil are like
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: almost to the color of your eye, that's a dead giveaway.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah for Shizzy.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And it brings you back to what we
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 3: talked about earlier with the Shaver guy and how Jolly
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 3: West comes into his trial and and that might have
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: been more cover up. This might have been more well
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 3: cover up for a different reason. I think they were
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: covering up the Shavers, possibly unwitting.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah. And see the thing is with the Jack
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: Ruby thing. Okay, you know this is April sixty four, right, yeah,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: almost mayhea, And I believe didn't Jack Ruby die in
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: like sixty five or sixty six?
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 3: Sixty five or sixty six.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, before his retrial was going to start. Yes, yes,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: now he wasn't they didn't. I'm wondering why they didn't
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: follow up on West's recommendations to have him institutionalized and
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: treated in a mental institution. I mean, if this is
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: the recommendation of a doctor, why didn't they follow up
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: on it? I mean, there's got to be a reason.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: I Okay, I think this is my thought. If Jack
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 3: Ruby was some normal we appreciate that. If Jack Ruby
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 3: was some normal guy that committed murder, they probably would
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 3: have let jolly On West do that, because I think
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 3: the reason he wanted to do that was probably to
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 3: continue observing for his experiments.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: Right, or you think worked for an appeal or a
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: retrial to have him be considered insane. But I think
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: I think here's here's the problem, Joe. I think the
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: reason they didn't continue on this path is because Ruby's
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: hallucinations were way off the charts, and they would have
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: had to keep him like this constantly, because you know,
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: when you trip, you come down and you can go
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: back to normal, you know what I mean? Yeah, so yeah,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: you might you might go on a bad trip. You
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: might have been dosed and he didn't know it. That's
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: probably a scenario which is causing all of these things
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: that are in the back of your mind that you
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: think about to come forward, you know, in your hallucinatory
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: state and your tripping state and freak you the fuck out,
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, you know, oh my god,
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: I can hear my brother dieing in the street, you know,
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: just you know, crazy stuff. But then of course, you know,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: you come down after that.
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, very possible, or or the other reason
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 3: could be he was just way too high profile of
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 3: a person at that point.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, handhi strung.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, uh, yeah, he might have not been in the there. Uh.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: But also one key part of that too, Joe, is
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: that he mentions that Ruby talked about why he shot Oswald,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: but he's not going to put it in this report.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: So maybe in this state, West was able to get
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: the truth out of him, and that's why things didn't
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: progress after this. Huh you see what I'm saying.
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's I didn't think of that.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: Because while you know, while West has this guy one
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: on one in a room, he can he can hypnotize
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: him to you know, to do or say anything pretty
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: much he wants, Yeah, or suppressed memories.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly what they had reported being successful a
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 3: decade earlier, or somewhat successful.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very possible, man. I just know they didn't
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 3: want whatever Ruby actually knew and who actually told him
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 3: to take out Oswald, because I do believe he was
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 3: instructed to do that.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 3: As we said before, I don't think they wanted that
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: shooth coming out in front of Warren or anyone or
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 3: at a retrial or whenever.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very crazy stuff. So some of the other stuff
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: did other questionable things that mister West wasn't involved in.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: Here was the case that you ever heard about Lance
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: wrenzil Joe, I have not. Okay, Well, Lance Wrenzel was
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: an NFL running back and University of Oklahoma alumni. He
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: was arrested twice in sixty six and seventy for indecent
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: exposure to young girls. Okay, West family had been equated
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: with Renzel's family during their time at the university. Noting
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: that it was mostly unusual for a psychiatrist to permit
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: his relationship with a patient to become public knowledge, West
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: acknowledged that Renzel quote had many injuries, including a number
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: of severe concussions, presaging contemporary medicine's greater understanding of chronic
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: traumatic brain whatever and slopfully and en cephalotaph shit, en cephalopathy.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: Say that three times fast. The football players.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 3: Hey, there's a lot of l's in there.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: Bro so yeah, otherwise known as CTE folks. Maybe for
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: that now, wonder they don't say the whole goddamn word
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: all right. He also asserted that he was required to
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: make periodic reports of Renzell's progress to several public and
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: private agencies as a friend of Hugh Hefner. Renzel went
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: on to reside at the Playboy Mansion in the late seventies.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: In his twenty twenty two memoir, former Mansion butler, Stefan
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: Tettenbaum wrote that he saw Renzel masturbate in front of
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: the monkeys at the masturbate in front of the monkeys
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: at the mansion zoo, and alleged that Hefner thought Lance
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: could be cured by allowing him to be free to
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: explore himself sexually. So Lance constantly walked and ran about
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: the mansion with his penis hanging out of his shorts.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: We were instructed not to pay attention to his public
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: masturbation and just pretend like it was not happening. It
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: is not known if Friendze was domiciled at the Playboy Mansion.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: Through the intersection of West, the monkeys got it for me.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, you've got Playboy playmates there, and you're jacking
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: off in front of the Playboy primates at the mansion zoo,
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: walking around with your dick hanging out all day long,
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: and all the staff being instructed to just overlook it.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: Oh godah.
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy six, we have the Patty Hirst trial.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: Joe West was appointed by the court in his capacity
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: as a brain mar washing expert and worked without a
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: fee pro bono. Believing that Hirst displayed all the classic
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: signs of coercion, brainwashing, and the Stockholm effect. West wrote
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: a newspaper article after the trial asking President Carter to
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: release Patty Hirst from prison. Some weeks after her arrest,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: Hirst repudiated her s l a allegiance that's the sybian
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: orya Libanese army, whatever, whatever the hell that is. According
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: to West, scientists, scientologists attempted to discredit him and get
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: him fired using methods similar to those used in Operation Freakout.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know what Operation Freakout is, but it sounds
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: like a fun operation.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 3: It sounds like a subproject of Yeah.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: So those people to the gills and just see what happens.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: This was allegedly done after his contributions to a nineteen
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: eighty textbook that classified scientology as a cult. West participated
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: in an American Psychiatric Association panel on cults. Each speaker
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: had received a letter threatening a lawsuit of Scientology was mentioned.
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: Apparently others were intimidated, and only West, the last speaker,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: referred to the letter and the cult by saying, I
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: read parts of the letter to the one thousand plus
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: psychiatrists and then told any Scientologist in the crowd to
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: pay attention. I said, I would like to advise my
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: colleagues that I considered Scientology a cult and l Ron
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: Hubbard a quack and a fake. I wasn't about to
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: let them intimidate me. Unquote interesting. Jolly got balls.
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 3: He didn't like competition of the cult space.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: In late nineteen ninety nine, Jolly and West died peacefully,
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: well I don't know how peacefully, but at his home
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: in Los Angeles at age seventy four. His family said
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: the cause of death was metastatic brain cancer. However, West's
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: son John would later assert in a two thousand and
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: nine memoir that he helped his father end his life
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: at the latter's choice by using prescription medication due to
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: the terminal illness. Wouldn't it be fitting if you had
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: just dosed himself to death? Who did?
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 3: Who did that? Didn't someone do that that?
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: We talked about, what dose himself to death? Yeah?
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 3: Unlike his deathbed or hospice or something, or am I
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 3: making himself?
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: No? I remember hearing about it. I don't know. I
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: think we were talking about wouldn't it be crazy if
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: you were tripping?
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, that's what it was.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: Like. That would suck, That's what it was.
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Lee's asking all this tac of LSD. Do we
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: think that LHA was part of the same testing. We
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, we have no proof of it.
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: We do know that LSD was in Atsugi and Manila
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: and that they weren't avert to testing on enlisted officers
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: or you know, enlisted people without their knowledge, So who knows?
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: That was nothing past?
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let me say this, Rob, if you are of
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 3: the belief that Lee Harvey OSWALDT was sent as a
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 3: true false defector by the CIA to Russia. That argument
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 3: holds more weight with me that they might have tested
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 3: him for anti interrogation techniques type of thing. Right, If
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 3: you know, you take the maybe Larry Hancock Oswald puzzle
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 3: maybe unwitting most of you know, most of his decision
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: to go to Russia. I wouldn't say so. I say
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 3: it's more of a coincidence he was in those two spots.
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: That's what I have to say about that. I don't
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: know if that makes sense. I'm not talking one way
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: or the other. Alice Huxley's wife dosed him on his deathbed.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 3: That was it, right.
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 6: Or no?
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Oswald was reading you know a lot of these
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: books like you know, Brave New World. Alice Huxley wrote,
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: you know the Doors Perception.
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 3: That yeah, it was yes, And he died the same
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 3: day as uh Kennedy as Kennedy right, Yes, that's where
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 3: it was from. I knew we had talked about all.
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: These crazy crazy I heard anything else. Follow up with Yeah, Eric, if.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 3: I'm on my deathbed, will you dose me to death?
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 3: She goes home. I have one more thing.
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: And she slowly reaches for the pillow.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we promised this is the ultimate weave here, Rob,
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 3: We promised we'd get back to George Hunter White. Yes,
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 3: and he was an American federal agent. This is just
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 3: a basic thing from Wikipedia. He was a Federal Bureau
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 3: of Narcotics FBN investigator and then overcover CIA operative World
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 3: War Two veteran and one of the men responsible for
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 3: the capture of Lucky Luciano. Interesting. Wow, yeah, I didn't
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 3: know that. But what makes this interesting is that, let's
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 3: see the right thing up here.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: So he was.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 3: Kind of observing the mk Ultra subproject of Operation Midnight Climax.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 3: And I'm just going to read one thing real quick
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 3: on that.
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: Paul became a spook. Welcome in, you appreciate you.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 3: Operation Midnight Climax was an operation carried out by the
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 3: CIA as a subproject of Project mk Ultra, the mind
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 3: control research program that began the nineteen fifties. It was
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: established by George hen R. White under the pseudonym of
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 3: Morgan Hall. Let's see. So essentially, Operation Midnight Climax was
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 3: the honey trap operation in San Francisco. So while you
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 3: had the hate Ashbury free medical clinic that was, you know,
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 3: giving out some stuff.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: You had.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 3: Another clinic that was you had an operation where you
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 3: brought in where you were procuring women to random John's
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 3: and then dosing them and then observing them during that
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 3: process Poor John's. And George Hunter White was the CIA
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 3: undercover operative that was hiding behind the glass, right, so
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 3: they had like a you know in those interrogation rooms,
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 3: the two way glass or the one way glass, where
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 3: so there were literally George White was on the other
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 3: side of this with other people laughing, and he himself
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 3: was taking part of LSD and taking advantage of the women.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 3: And there's actually an interview with him out there. I
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 3: didn't want to play it to get us possibly demonetized,
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 3: but so I figured I'd just do a little searching
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 3: and Mary Farrell and figure out what I could figure
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 3: out about this skafuza. George White, and I came across
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 3: a transcript of HCA Critics Conference September seventeenth, nineteen seventy seven,
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 3: And to be honest, I didn't know they had an
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 3: HCA Critic conference.
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: But let me, do you recognize a lot of those
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: names on there?
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 3: That's I'm saying the big names Jay, Gary Shaw, Peter Dale, Scott,
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 3: Josiah Thompson, Mary Ferrell, Larry Harris, Paul Hawke, Kathy Kinsella,
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 3: Jim Custman, and Sylvia Maher. So I continue to search
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 3: and this is what I find out. Scott is speaking here,
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 3: Peter Dale, Scott. I had to go up to the
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 3: top to figure out who Scott was. I was like,
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 3: who these Scott? So he's talking about George White. He's
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: talking about some other guy who represented Ruby before the
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 3: kafvervver Key Fover committee, thank you, sir, which was very
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 3: interested in the Reagan killing. Is a very plausible consumption,
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 3: particularly when you go back to the Chicago Tribune in
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 3: nineteen forty six and see that right after the Reagan
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 3: was shot, George White, who was then head of the
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 3: local Federal Bureau of Narcotics. Again going back to the
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: Wikipedia FBN, we know this is the same George White office,
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 3: held a press conference in which he said the FBI
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 3: was very interested in that case. Ruby was an informant
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 3: in nineteen forty six for the FBI and George White
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 3: was the head of that local office. You have to
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 3: remember that George White went on to become the top
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 3: organized crime consultant for the Key Faver Committee. So Ruby
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 3: is an informant to this committee. And George White, someone
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 3: later involved in the mk ultra subproject in San Francisco
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 3: with procuring women for random people undosing them, had possible
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 3: contact with Ruby. So that made it very interesting to
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 3: me that later Ruby would also be caught up in
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 3: another mk ultra type a situation here, right, Really, it
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 3: probably is a coincidence, but it's fascinating. Nonetheless, that back
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 3: in forty six, this dude White probably knew who Ruby was.
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 3: It might have Random as an informant, and you know,
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 3: less than two decades later, his fellow mk Ultra colleagues
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 3: were dealing with with Ruby in a different way. So
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 3: that is crazy.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: Huh, that is crazy with even crazy. Here is what
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to find right here, Joe, I am. This
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: might take me a minute, So if you could just
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: run run a little interference interact with now, I'm gonna.
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 3: Look at a couple of comments. Yeah, midnight climax Sally, Yeah,
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 3: that's uh, do a little googling on that. That's funny.
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 3: And George White was like kind of the main guy
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 3: in terms of midnight climax. So just crazy the how
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 3: it all comes around. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 3: episode Colleen Jack Ruby b Trippin.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, was that that was with me?
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 3: Right? I don't know if that's the exact name of
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 3: the episode. But I don't know if that's the exact
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 3: name of the episode. It was BJ. But imagine getting
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 3: dosed by a hooker. Yeah, that that wouldn't be fun.
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 3: And they did it through aerosol in the bathroom and
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 3: the drinks. I was reading so and that was happening
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 3: also in San Francisco at the same time. Yeah, I
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 3: guess probably.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: I thought it was a hand way to dose some
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 1: guy without his knowledge, but that might that would require
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 1: the prostitute being as well.
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 3: Right, especially if it's aerosol. Are these new documents, Joe, No,
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 3: most of these are old. There is one new document.
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 3: I came across on Silly Gottlieb or I say I
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 3: came across on Twitter. Someone else came across. It's not
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: super It has a bunch of redactions, which is kind
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 3: of interesting, but it's not anything different than what we've
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 3: been saying. But we figured we wed because there's all
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 3: this talk talk and we've talked about new documents, new documents.
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 3: We figured we'd do a little funner episode tonight and
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 3: then get back to the documents maybe next week. We
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 3: did some on Wednesday, So.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're documented out.
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 3: Sally Sally with the common of the night. Scott Edwards
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 3: step up, Dare I google midnight Climax might take me
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 3: to all sorts show you never know what corner of
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 3: the Internet. Googling midnight Climax might take you, Sally, Google
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 3: at your own risk, but for.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: More reading, And I was I was looking for something
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: that I know that I've seen hp Albarelli's book, Hank
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: Albarell's book it's called A Terrible Miss Date the Murderer
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: of Frank Olsen and the CIA's Secret Cold War Experiments.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for a good book to read, uh
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: more that goes more in depth into into into this stuff,
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: then we've been able to go over here. I would
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: recommend checking that book out. And the reason that I
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: bring this up is because in this book he goes
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: very in depth into George Hunter White and a association
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: with a fella by the name of Pierre Lafitte alias
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: in New Orleans is Jean Martin Cross. So very interesting there.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 3: Martin alias as well.
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was released in the newer book Coup
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: in Dallas by Hblburelli, but he was mentioned first in
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: a Terrible Mistake twenty years ago. The book came out
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and five. This Pierre Lafitte was mentioned
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: in the book as being associated with George Hunter White.
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 3: Huh. Yeah, so I had no idea about the connection.
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: No, And apparently Turning Horse says, the show Wormwood is
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: about Frank Olsen stuff. And no, I've never watched Wormwood,
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: but I think I need to. Hopefully it's somewhere that
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: I subscribe to. Yeah, where can we find it? Folks? Wormwood?
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 1: Is it streaming anywhere? Or do I have to order
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 1: the dvd off Amazon the entire series?
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 3: You still do DVDs?
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: We if you can't stream it anywhere. I do have
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: a DVD player, Yeah, I lost mine a long time ago.
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 3: What are you saying you have a DVD player? Erica
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 3: dis raised her hand behind the laptop. So I have
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 3: a dv yes, you old people finger. I just got
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 3: the finger. Ah. Yes. So, in terms of the jfk assassination,
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 3: to kind of wrap it up, if if there was
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 3: any involvement in an MK ultra, I would definitely side
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 3: on the stage side and say definitely had to do
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 3: with jolly On West and Jack Ruby. The other events
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 3: we talked about, whether it be the Frank Olsen or
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 3: the Carver or you know, there were kind of other operations,
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 3: but I think that's the one you could most you
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 3: could tie the best to the jfk assassination would be
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 3: Jollian's West and almost immediate and then further involvement in
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 3: later April, about a month before you testified to the
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 3: Warrant Commission.
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: That is.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 3: That checks the boxes for me, man. I don't think
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 3: he was there randomly, that's for sure.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: No. I think it was part of some kind of
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: a plan to make Zach Ruby seem crazy, like a
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: bumbling idiot aryors.
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, bumbling idiot. Yeah. And you know you talked about
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 3: bell I being from San Francisco. You know a lot
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 3: of the lawyers Jack had might not have acted in
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 3: his best interest. And I think he had a whole
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 3: team of him, He had like three or four right.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I know I've realized folks that at this
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: time in nineteen sixty four, Jolian West was still at
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: the University of Oklahoma. He had not made his way
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: to California yet, So you know, it's hard to make
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: these direct ties, but these associations can be made. It
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: could be at this point when Melvin bell I was
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: introduced who Jolly and West, and then once he became
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: out of California, you know, could have gotten wrapped up
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: in some other stuff in between LA and San Francisco,
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: and he would have he would have known bell at
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: the time, and he came into contact with Charles Manson,
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: and you know he was in La as well, where
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: Manson went after, you know, leaving San Francisco. So these
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: things are crazy, Joseph crazy.
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 3: As a small world one. Well, when you get into
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 3: all these people, it wouldn't surprise me at all in
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 3: the least if they had known each other.
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: In some way.
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 3: It doesn't matter where he were still fly back and forth.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, these things could be intertwined at the weirdest places,
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: you know. But this is just an example of the
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: kind of things that our CIA was doing behind our
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: backs and funding autonomously.
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 3: And it was a mistake that we found it, really.
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if it weren't for.
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 3: The committees of the seventies.
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that and and you know if he had
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 1: left all the papers to the library in California, yeah,
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, you'd never have hard, concrete proof that he
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 1: worked for the CIA, And now we do. Yeah, you know,
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: you can suspect it all day long, but to prove
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: it in his own words and letters and actions, and
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: there's a whole different thing. And that's awesome. It's awesome.
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 3: And we know West visited Ruby, right, he had signed
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 3: on uh yeah, some of the stubs. Like, we know that,
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 3: that's not speculation.
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 1: We have the report.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 3: I didn't know. We know Jack Ruby went crazy shortly
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 3: before or just around the time that West came.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 1: We know, the night before West came.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 3: Yes, not a coincidence, of folks, No, Yeah, And I
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: think Jack was a pretty level headed guy for the
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 3: most part. I mean, of course he lost the school.
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 3: He you know, did different.
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: Things, of course, but he was a weirdo.
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 3: He was a weirdo, but he wasn't batshit crazy.
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: No. And you know what I saw too recently. I
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: think it was in the new files that Jack Ruby
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: was seeing a doctor weekly to receive cranial injections to
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: reverse his.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 3: Balding before or after incarceration.
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: Before before okay, yeah, like the year before he started
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: going to see a doctor who was injecting some snake
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 1: oil shit into his into his head to reverse the
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: effects of balding, you know, basically start regrowing hair.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 3: Well rom to be fair, my brother does that.
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but this ain't nineteen sixty three, bro, Right, where
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: likely that ship was snake oil back then? Yeah, you know,
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know when they invented you know, roguain or whatever.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you have to go see a doctor and
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 3: get it. Your head hurts, it's terrible. He's like, it's
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 3: the worst, but it works for him. But yeah, that
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 3: is sixty years ago plus, So yeah, I.
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 1: Don't know how legit that is, you know, but that's
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: another way he could have been compromised. You know, over time.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're injecting something to somebody straight into
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: somebody's head, you know, there's a lot of there's a
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 1: lot of nerves and you know yeah, yeah, I mean
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: your brain is right there, bro.
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'm pretty sure Jack, you know, obviously being
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 3: a fighter, was he a boxer back in the day, Uh,
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 3: he probably took a few cranial shots. Uh, you know
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 3: what I mean. And when you think and I think
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 3: that's kind of what the type of people they they
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 3: focused on, because they say subjects that this is right for.
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 3: I'm losing the exact wording, but you know it was
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 3: a certain type of people that this worked the best on.
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 3: And you think of Sirhan Suranton fell off the horse
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 3: and hit his head, right, Yeah, I'm it's that type
• 2:05:42
  Speaker 3: of thing. So it's fascinating.
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 1: And uh, just to end the show off on a
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 1: different note, but somewhat related, came across some recently. I
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: don't know if they are recent, but they recently discovered
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: classified documents from the sea regarding Operation Sunstreak. Joe, are
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: you familiar with that?
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 3: I am not.
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: I believe it was either a precursor or to the
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: Stargate program. Remote Viewing.
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, so.
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 1: I have here. Let me pop it up here. A
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 1: remote viewing session summary. Target is a container. This container
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: has another container inside of it. The target is fashioned
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: of wood, gold, and silver. The target is similar in
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: shape to a aol whatever that is a coffin, and
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 1: its decorated with seraphim see sketch page one sixty one.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: So what does that sound like to you, Joe, Okay,
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: you don't know. This target is located somewhere in the
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: Middle East, as the language spoken by individuals presence seemed
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: to be Arabic. Visuals of surrounding buildings indicated the presence
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 1: of mosque domes. Individuals in the area were clothed and
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: virtually all white, had black haired, dark eyes. One figure
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: I honed in on wore a mustache. The target is
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: hidden underground. Dark and wet were all aspects of the
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 1: location of the target. The purpose of the target is
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: to bring up people together. It has something to do
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 1: with ceremony, memory, homage, the resurrection. There is an account
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 1: or aspect of spirituality, information, lessons, and historical knowledge far
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: beyond what we know now. The target is protected by
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: entities and can only be opened by those who are
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 1: authorized to do so. The container will not cannot be
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 1: opened until the time is deemed correct. Once it is
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 1: time to open the container, the mechanics of the lock
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: system will be found to be fairly simple. Individuals opening
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: the container by prying or striking, or destroyed by the
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 1: containers protectors through the use of a power unknown to us.
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 3: Oh, I think I got it. But I think Bungle
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 3: got it first.
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so the training target number two zero two
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 1: oh nine is the Arc of the Covenant. Access and
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: describe the target identified by coordinate or whatever whatever whatever whatever.
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: So the remote viewer is only given they're not told
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 1: what they're going to look at their given coordinates right now.
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: The training target they say, you know, is the Ark
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 1: of the Covenant. Viewer attained excellent site contact, doing very
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 1: well with stage four structure. Viewer also exhibits the ability
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: to keep AOL to a minimum. Have to be careful
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 1: with editing, though this does not seem to be a
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 1: problem at this time. Just something to watch for evaluation
• 2:08:56
  Speaker 1: for classified by the di A. And this is Project
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: sun Streak again December of nineteen eighty eight. So the
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 1: CIA seems to know where the Arc of the Covenant
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: is hidden, which is beneath the Dome of the Rock
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 1: in Jerusalem, somewhere very deep underneath of it. Whoa allegedly
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: is it or not?
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 3: I heard it was in marl Lago.
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: Here he has a big, pretty sweet copy of it. Yeah.
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 3: I also heard them doing remote viewing into the Pyramids too.
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: They've even remote viewed to Mars as well. To Mars too, right, yeah,
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 1: years ago on Mars, Yeah, five million years ago when
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 1: people were there or whatever were there.
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the CIA has been doing that
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 3: since the seventies, right, so yeah that document you said
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 3: this from the late eighties. But yeah, it's crazy.
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: That's Timothy the rabbit Hole tinfoil ert.
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, we said for the end.
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, no, no, Lee, the Templars took it and they
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 1: took it to Oak Island. That's where it's buried. Are
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 1: they going to find it? Oak Island? The Curse of
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: Oak Island? We'll see.
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 3: They already did all those things, did Yeah, those digs.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: See Colleen knows it's on Oakland.
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 3: See yeah, Southwest Hugh Indiana Jones theme.
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that is a great movie. Yeah. Well this
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 1: was a fun episode, Joe. I'm glad we did it.
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: It was a little break from the documents we do.
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 1: So we hope everybody enjoyed it. Seemed like they did.
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: Had the audience here all night, so that is good. Yeah.
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 3: I hope we learned something. Yeah, I definitely did preparing.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 1: For this for sure. Absolutely, So Joe, without further ado,
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 1: let me do the ruby, let me do the Ruby
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 1: Cam Ruby, Come on, come here, girl, Ruby, you want
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 1: to dance? Come on, come on, come on, come on,
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: come on. Now, let's see if the music will play tonight.
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 1: It did not want to play Wednesday night.
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, and we have special guests guests next week, and
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 3: if you are a member, you will find out on Wednesday.
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 8: That's right, allegedly. Thank you everybody for showing up, holding
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 8: out and hanging out with us. Thank you all those
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 8: who at the show. If you'd like to become a member,
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 8: but looks under the scripts make all easy stuf should
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 8: check it out if you're scooping when.
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 3: The crimes are committed to the name of justice. The
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 3: quotation is Jim Garrison's. It could be used for him
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 3: or against him in this strange case.
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: Good Night, I almost died of the perform of threat.
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: Made a miraculous undue. I think Tally does before the self.
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: That was one hell of a long him see here,
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 1: Please guys, see you next week. I'm going to die now, Okay,
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: good night,