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An Eye for Beauty: What Hair & Art Reveal About Who We Are · The Tight Curls Project

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I remember the very first piece of art I bought.
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I was in my 20s, and it took me about nine months to pay for it.
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And then once I had this piece with an original artist signature,
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like, I was, hooked, right?
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Like, this is mine.
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So that piece has followed me everywhere in my life.
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And then I just started collecting, and then I realized, oh my gosh,
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collecting is more than just for the rich and the famous,
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Hello, and welcome to the Tight Curls Project podcast.
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I'm your host, Shadia, and we have a special guest today, Linda Shropshire.
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Linda, welcome.
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Thank you so much, Shadia.
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Thank you so much for having me
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So excited to have you.
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So we're gonna get right into it.
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You have a very interesting bio, so I'm gonna share that with the audience so
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they have a taste of Linda and all we're gonna t- we have a lot to cover today.
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So, inspired by an early art education and an instructor who influenced
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the career of artist Ernie Barnes, Linda has spent decades as a
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collector and advocate for the arts.
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Born and raised in Charlotte, North Carolina, she's called
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Durham her home since 1993.
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Yes, Durham.
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She's on the board of trustees for the North Carolina Museum of Art and serves to
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steward the museum's permanent collection as part of the Art Acquisition Committee.
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As a member of the Black Trustee Alliance, Linda spends time in the, in a national
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collective community of museum and gallery leaders, ensuring museums and
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institutions create more space for Black artists and those who are traditionally
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left out of the art history narrative.
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Linda studied at North Carolina State University, UNC Chapel Hill,
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and the Sotheby Institute of Art.
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As a former leader for corporate social responsibility and human
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rights for a Fortune 100 company, she brings both a passion for art
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and business acumen to Ella West.
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Yay.
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Welcome, Linda.
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We're
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excited
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you.
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Thank you so much.
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Thank you so much.
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This is exciting.
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I'm so really, I'm happy and so proud of you
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Oh, thank you so much.
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You were here when I was starting the Tight Curls Project podcast, and we've
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had a couple conversations about art.
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And as we're building for season two, just thinking about people who are
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living interesting lives and have woven so many elements that would be
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interesting to our audience, the art, the beauty, and also your hair story.
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So we're excited to talk to you.
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And what we start with is, uh, you have the stories So let's
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start with little Linda's story.
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So tell us about little Linda.
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What did she think about her hair?
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What were your first memories related to your hair?
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Well, I will say this.
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My mother was a hairdresser, both formally and informally.
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And, uh, growing up, it- there was nothing for someone to be at our home
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on a Saturday afternoon or a Friday evening, and my mom had what they
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called a, uh, hot comb on the stove, you know, doing the press and curl for
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her friends and her nieces and family.
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And, I was an onlooker.
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But in the back of my mind, I had always had this idea that I wanted
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some really cool straight bangs.
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And because my mom had no interest in doing that for me, one of my
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first and formidable stories was that I decided when she was asleep,
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that I would take on my hair.
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So
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Okay.
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Okay, you're, I see some sneakiness.
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You're like, you know, "Now's my time."
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so I turned on the, eye on our gas stove.
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I knew where she kept the, the hot comb, uh, straightening comb, if you will.
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I put it on the heat, and I just sort of stood and waited and thought, "Okay, it
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feels like it's hot. I hear a sizzle." Uh,
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and and then, what I didn't recognize is that my mom would always cool
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it off with a towel before she put it into the hair of her patrons.
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So I didn't pay attention to that detail.
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So I took it straight off the stove, and I took it through my hair,
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and then all of a sudden my hair was just like singed completely
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Ooh.
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Like, the bangs were gone.
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There was smoke, uh,
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you know.
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And finally, when my mom woke up and I was, sort of freaked out, I mean,
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my bangs were completely singed.
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And so for like my first grade pictures, you can see like what is
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left of the little bangs that that
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Oh my gosh, you are completely adorable.
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We have Linda here in this picture, school picture.
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She's got the balls, the ball elastic ties, her two twists, and a little
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fluffy ba- you know, it looks like a fluffy curly thing, you know?
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That was the outcome, but like
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tooth.
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It is so good.
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Wow.
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I'm sure your mom just was like, "This m- this baby,
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I know.
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She's just… She- I tried, and I think she felt sorry for me.
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But, uh, I think I learned my lesson that I was not a hairdresser, and from that
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point on, I just, like, wanted to have not much to do with hair, especially my hair.
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Yeah, so, but lucky for me, my mom was a hairdresser
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That is amazing.
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So you were always around hair.
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You had your big experiment moment pretty early on, and so then, you know,
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you didn't continue on that track.
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you took notes and said, "Okay, let's leave that to somebody else for a
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Let's do that.
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And then I recognized early on that people with their hair fell into two categories.
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You were either tender-headed or not
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Mm.
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Okay
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And so I was tender-headed, which means that anything that anybody
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did to my hair just felt like they were, you know, ripping my scalp out.
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And so,
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as a young person, I just remember, like, crying, and my mom was, like,
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just trying to get the tangles out.
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And even though she was a hairdresser, she decided my hair was not the
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hair she wanted to spend time on.
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So she had a really good friend who was another hairdresser who would come and
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pick me up and she would do my hair.
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So I, now I look back on it, it felt completely normal back then.
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But now that I think about it, you know, that she had to pay
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someone else to do my hair,
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that's really interesting.
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I guess it was not the battle she wanted to have with you,
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It was not the battle, and she's like, "I'm not doing this with
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you." but I would say, "Mom, you're so heavy-handed," and she just
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didn't understand what that meant.
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But the other woman who did my hair was so gentle, and, like, never did
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I scream, never did I… And she's like, "Oh my God, she's just fine." So,
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uh, that was always sort of my story.
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Yeah.
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your mom knew it was a better match, you and this other very gentle, you
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She did.
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And you know, as I got older, one of the things that I realized, and
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now I think back on it, of course, when you're in it, it doesn't really
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register as your, as when you're a kid.
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But there was so much wisdom, love, caring in sort of this whole ecosystem
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of hairdresser and patrons, right?
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Like my mom saw every facet of woman, whether they were just
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getting ready to be married or, you
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know.
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And sometimes she would even, her patrons would pass away and she would
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go to the funeral home and do their
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Wow
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So, um, I think we sometimes take for granted what it means to do, but
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that's sort of an intimate job, right?
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And there are people who are dedicated to it and who, who
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just, who are dedicated to hair
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Mm-hmm.
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And I think also, if you go back to even the, even through the '90s,
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maybe early 2000s, people were regularly getting their hair done.
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It was an important relationship in your life to have this
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continuity with the stylist.
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You
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It was.
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There was some loyalty.
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I mean, people would come from, like, out of town.
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They would drive to Charlotte from Winston-Salem to get their Jheri curls,
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Oh my gosh
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I know.
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No, I mean, she had regular people who would come, and they,
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you know, they were… It was.
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It was sort of a, it was almost like a village.
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and I was, you know, I was the onlooker, uh, for the most part, and
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just sort of watching how things would go.
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And, but now again, looking back on it, it- it's really
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interesting the relationship that women would have with their hair.
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And one of the things I noticed was that hair was supreme, right?
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A person might be struggling to make their car payment, but they were
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not gonna not get their hair done
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It was a, it was a priority.
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Yeah.
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priority.
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fascinating.
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It is fascinating.
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and I think, for my mom, it was almost like she was a therapist, you know?
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Like, they would come, and she knew every- And, you know, it's like it was Vegas.
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Like, what's, what ha- what you say here, stays here.
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Okay.
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Okay
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but it was a beautiful ecosystem all sort of centered around hair
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That's beautiful.
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I have a picture here of your mom doing hair with a, with
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a young girl,
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yeah
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and she's got a very, I love it, a very sassy top, the, the
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statement blue earrings, the curls.
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very stylish, you know?
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And she had her asymmetrical hair.
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Was that, that
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Yes
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like back in that day, that was sort of like, uh, you know, that
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was the Madonna, the… I mean, that was that, that look, right?
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A high top fade.
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That's what it was.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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And, it's the blonde curls.
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This is great.
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Was she changing up her style a lot or did she kinda
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So she didn't really fuss with her hair much.
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Like, she was like the cobbler, you know, like, uh, not paying attention.
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So it always had to be kind of short and sort of like just natural
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and she, she had some favorites.
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And so , she didn't mind experimenting, but one thing that was, always is her hair
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was always gonna be sort of blonde or, you
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Oh, a
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caramel.
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So was her color.
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In fact, I would say, "I don't really know what color your hair is," you know?
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And she's like, what was the color?
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It was like a Miss Clairol dirty blonde or something like that.
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I mean, it was the same
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It looks good.
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It
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It was her, it was her signature color.
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So as you got older and, you were getting your hair done, and then did you have a
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moment where you started taking over doing your own hair as you were progressing?
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I don't know if that was something that was part of your experience,
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learning to do your own hair.
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Yeah, you know, it's really interesting because one of the things
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that my mom was really clear about was before I went to college, she
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wanted me to be able to do my hair.
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And so I had watched and watched, so I knew enough about it, so she started
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teaching me how to do my roller sets.
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So whereas some people were showing up, to the university
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with, you know, flat irons maybe.
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They didn't have flat irons back then.
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They had curling irons.
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I showed up at university with a big hooded dryer that would sit on
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my desk, and then I would put it on the big magnetic rollers, and
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then a, a gallon-sized bottle of Lottabody and a spray bottle, and the
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some Lotta Body on my, uh, twist right now, so it's
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still,
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nothing better than Lottabody.
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It's still doing its job.
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And, uh, and then the little metal clips.
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And so on Sundays, I would… That, that was like my routine.
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I would do my own roller set, set my hair, sit under the
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dryer, do my homework, study.
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I'd have to sit under there for about two hours, and that was a thing.
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So yeah, it was really, like, I didn't pay attention to it again,
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but in retrospect, she did teach me how to care for my own hair.
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and then I was able to… It was, yeah, so I did that.
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And then, like, as I got a little older in college, I recognized that there
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was a beauty college near the campus,
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Hmm.
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near NC State.
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It was, I think it was Mitchell's Beauty College.
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And then someone said, "You can get a roller set for $4.50."
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What?
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Ooh,
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I know.
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I'm telling my age.
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But yes.
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So then I was like, "Well, I'm gonna try this out." I talked to my mom.
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She's like, "Yeah, those girls at the beauty school, everybody has
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to learn how to do a roller set." And true to form, she was right.
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And so then that started taking over, so I would then go to, uh, the beauty
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college on Saturday mornings and,
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uh, get my hair set.
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So yes.
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figured out.
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That's pretty good for college.
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I had it figured out.
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I had it figured out, yeah.
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So it was,
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life skill too,
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you
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it was a life skill.
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But I will tell you one story that I forgot to mention.
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But, when I was in high school, it was my senior year of high school,
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and I call it the advent of the f- flowing hair for Black women.
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There was a really good hairdresser, and he had come from California,
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and he was teach-- you know, he was doing hair, blow-drying it, and flat
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ironing it, and doing the things.
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And so my mom was one of his sort of proteges.
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He was teaching her.
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So he convinced my mom, because I had all this natural virgin hair, to put
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a relaxer in my hair and to cut my hair a model And so I was like, "I
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don't want." Mom's like, "Come on.
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It's gonna be beautiful.
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He's gonna have you in a magazine, and it's gonna be great." And I will
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say it was beautiful for the shoot.
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But what I didn't recognize is what it would take.
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. What it would take for me to try to do that.
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Like, I couldn't do what he did.
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So I was sort of walking around with this little asymmetrical
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oof thing.
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Oh, it was asymmetrical?
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it's
13:53
Oh.
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like half one side, uh,
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uh, and I'm sort of
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it like,
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st… It was like,
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like a N Pepa kind
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of
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Salt N Pepa.
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Yes.
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And I'm a very balanced person, so I eventually just had them
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to cut off the other side
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to kinda get it together and have one.
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but that was really an interesting time in my life.
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And I remember thinking, "I will never listen to my mother again.
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I will never listen to my mother again.
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What
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You were a muse,
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her to do?"
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" My daughter"
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I know, yeah.
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And that was the beginning of, like, relaxers, right?
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And so it's sort
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of like you get one, and then you gotta get one again, and
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then you gotta get one again.
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And, um, that was sort of the beginning of that train.
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Did you stick into the relaxers for a long time or was it,
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you?
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know, it was short, it was a short run for me.
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I remember, after I had my daughter, my first daughter, I was like, "I,
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I'm not doing this anymore." Like, I just am like, "I don't have time.
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I don't have… Like, whatever my hair's gonna do, it's gonna do." And
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then I found, like, some hairdressers that could just work with your
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natural hair, and then I just sort of embraced the fact that whatever…
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You know, it's gonna… If I put gel on it, it's gonna… Put
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enough gel, it's gonna slick back.
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If I put something to make it curly, it's gonna be curly, and if I wanna
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z- you know, set it, it won't be the exact same, but it'll be fine.
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And so,
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um, there was a moment when I just said, "I'm not gonna
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be a slave to this anymore."
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That's big
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yeah, that was big, and it was a, it was before the trend, you know?
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Okay
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It didn't feel like revolutionary back then.
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It felt like I was just surviving.
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It was like a survival technique, you
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know?
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Like, I got a new toddler.
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I'm, I don't have time for hair.
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I don't have time to go to a hairdresser.
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I can't give anybody three or four hours.
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I certainly can't do it myself.
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Like, I'm not putting chemicals in my hair.
15:50
So I just let it, I kinda let it go,
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and then I just, again, I embraced this idea that I could do my own hair.
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So I brought back out my dryer.
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Taking it to the dryer.
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Dusted it off.
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Got some new, some new rollers.
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Found some new… Then I found some, there was this, uh, mousse form
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of Lottabody kind of thing, and,
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uh, I went back to doing my own hair,
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I
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think that's really interesting too, because sometimes we're not, it's not
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about making a statement it's what works for the life that you're trying to live
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and the life that you need to live, you
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What works for the live.
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being able to, yeah, detach from that requirement to spend that much time.
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That's a lot of time.
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It's a lot of time.
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And, you know, back when I was sort of in my formative years, women were
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af- women were afraid for hair to get wet, so women weren't working out.
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Women weren't swimming, because they were like, "I got my… I can't get my hair
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wet," and so I was really conscious when- of that when I, um, was raising my kids.
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I was like, "I do not want them to be a slave to hair. And so whatever
17:00
it is, whatever it looks like, we're gonna go for it, and we're gonna be
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swimming," and we would go in the rain.
17:07
I mean, I just didn't want them to have that same, those same
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constraints because I feel like it
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was, it was, like, confining to be, have a life
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that is confined by your hair
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Mm-hmm.
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I mean, when I'm doing-- was doing research on this, a
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couple interesting things.
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one study done in America said that about 40% of Black women say hair is a decision
17:30
when they're deciding to exercise.
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So they were looking at this as a public health perspective because
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if women are making their decisions about their exercise, about their
17:38
hair, what can we do about that?
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And that's something I care a lot about and why I'm trying to build things with
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Texture Tech to make it easier and less time because, I don't want to miss out.
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No one w- your kids shouldn't have to miss out or not know how to
17:51
Ever
17:52
or not do a workout, you know?
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So I think we have a picture of you and your girls.
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Maybe this one is when they're little.
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Aw, they're, they look so cute.
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You
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guys all look so cute.
18:04
Thank you.
18:05
you're all wearing white, all white turtlenecks,
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sweaters maybe.
18:09
Yeah, we have on our hair, and we all have our curly hair.
18:12
You know, my daughter, my oldest daughter sort of embraced her hair more
18:17
fully, and has continued than anyone.
18:20
I mean, she was just-- she took, she took whatever mantra I had,
18:24
and she took it to make it her own.
18:26
And so even to this day at twenty-eight, she's just like, "I'm not flat-ironing my
18:31
hair. I want my curls." She got married.
18:34
She's like, "I want my natural curls." Um, and like went to some
18:38
conference, right, where she learned how to do all the things to her hair.
18:42
But early on, I was just, I was like clear.
18:45
I'm not, I'm giving them back their hair.
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They can do whatever they want to their, with their hair.
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I'm not gonna make it a, a big construct in our life.
18:53
but I also had to walk the talk, you know?
18:56
Like they would ask me, "Well, why are you flat-ironing your hair? Like, do you
19:00
not like your hair the way it is?" So, you know, there were like these sort of moral
19:04
reckonings that I would have with my kids.
19:07
So like that photo is like one of the examples of, you know, a time when we
19:11
just all were like rocking our, our curls.
19:15
I love that.
19:15
And I, I was wondering.
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Yeah.
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With that picture, you all had curly hair, so I'm sure that played some role.
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They saw you
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and picked up m- and, and it sounds like they had questions too,
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like, "What are we doing here?"
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They had questions.
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as well.
19:28
Mm-hmm.
19:29
And I mean, they challenged me, right?
19:31
Even with color, like I, I'm kinda like my mother's child, so I'm
19:34
always adding some color to my hair.
19:37
And they're, and they would say things like, "So you don't like your hair?"
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Oh,
19:43
I'm like, "I do like my hair, right?
19:45
What are you
19:46
like the play.
19:46
I like the, you know
19:48
Like, I, like, I can do different things with my hair.
19:50
It's like my accessory.
19:52
It's like my fun.
19:53
But they took it really to heart, which, I, I mean, I guess I'm
19:56
sort of proud of that they were
19:58
Ja
19:59
w- we're, we're happy with what we have here.
20:02
So,
20:03
I, that's beautiful, you
20:05
yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:07
And I think one of the other things that my mom, I just appreciate about her
20:12
when she was a hairdresser is there was this whole notion in Black culture that
20:16
you either had bad hair or good hair.
20:18
Hmm.
20:19
And so there was this conversation, "Oh, her hair is bad," or, "She has good hair."
20:23
And so she, my mom, was really like, "There is no such thing as bad hair.
20:28
It is not a moral issue.
20:29
There's no bad hair." And she said, "All hair is beautiful." And I just
20:35
remember that, and how… and so her goal was e- to e- for everybody
20:39
that walked in to walk out feeling beautiful with whatever they had.
20:43
unfortunately,
20:44
that is not the case all the time, She was ahead of the time with that sentiment
20:47
and, and bringing that to you, which you then brought to your daughters.
20:52
so that's really, it's not every hairstylist today.
20:55
it's still an issue that comes up with people being able to embrace it, and I
20:59
think, you know, even if you embrace it, then you can still from th- from there
21:02
you have a place to say, "Well, now I can play because I'm comfortable with me
21:07
as a baseline and what I have," you know?
21:09
Exactly.
21:11
I'm comfortable with me and what I have.
21:13
Like, that's so profound.
21:15
Yeah
21:15
yeah, that's beautiful to see.
21:17
I wanna pull up this picture ' and so this is a picture with your mom.
21:20
She's wearing a neon green top with a necklace, very stylish, and then
21:25
your two daughters are there with their curls out looking at her.
21:29
Uh-huh.
21:29
lovely.
21:31
I love… Okay.
21:31
I
21:32
Yeah.
21:32
she was, she was
21:33
and your-
21:34
with me and my mom, yeah.
21:36
And it was funny because on this, uh, she also had a nephew.
21:40
My mom had a nephew, and she put him through beauty school, because
21:44
he was an artist, but he couldn't make any money as an artist.
21:46
And so she's like, "Well, you know, hair is art, right?
21:49
, So if you can
21:50
உம்.
21:51
you can also, cut." And, and he did.
21:53
He became a really well-known hairdresser.
21:55
But every once in a while she would go and sit in his chair, and on this occasion
21:59
was Mother's Day, and she went, and Johnny blew-dried her hair and did all
22:03
the things for, so that she would have
22:05
Oh, I love it
22:06
this new frock for us.
22:08
Fabulous.
22:09
Beautiful.
22:10
Well,
22:10
I, I love that and let's, let's use that segue 'cause you brought up hair and
22:14
art, and that's something that we are really interested in that connection,
22:17
and I see that through line, with you and your mother and that relationship,
22:21
and even, as you moved into the art world and thought about hairstyling.
22:26
Can you talk a little bit about, when you created Ella West Gallery and the
22:31
name and how that ties to your mother and also to this idea of what art is?
22:37
Oh, yeah.
22:37
So Ella West Gallery, was named after my mother.
22:41
Her name is Ella, and her middle name and pet name was Ella West.
22:47
I think back when she was born or growing up, there was a famous
22:51
actress, her name was Mae West.
22:53
And so this is sort of an ode to Mae West, Ella West.
22:57
, And oftentimes people would ask me the question, "Well,
23:00
is your mother an artist?"
23:01
Like, "Why would you name your gallery Ella West?" And I would often say,
23:07
"No, she wasn't an artist." But then I had one person to say, "Wait a
23:10
minute, your mother was a hairdresser.
23:12
She did cuts, she did color.
23:15
She created new styles.
23:18
She did pin curls.
23:19
She did finger waves.
23:21
That is artistry." And so I changed that narrative.
23:25
And, uh, so the gallery, was born an ode to my mother.
23:30
And more importantly than her artistry was this ability to just love, do everything
23:36
that she did with love as the center.
23:40
And so it was a reminder of me when I saw her name on the door or on
23:45
any material that I had to center whatever I was doing in love.
23:50
That's beau- that's, that's beautiful.
23:52
I mean, I say it's beautiful, but I do think part of loving something
23:56
well is highlighting the beauty and bringing that maybe to attention, right?
24:00
Which you
24:00
can do with hair, And, and also what you chose to highlight tells
24:04
a, tells a lot about what you love or what you're seeing as worthy
24:08
Exactly.
24:10
Exactly.
24:11
And that sort of… That was just the whole premise for Ella West Gallery
24:15
and the, and the work that I do, right?
24:17
Is to just sort of raise this awareness around all of the artists who have
24:22
been doing art, for generations and generations, who have been overlooked
24:27
in the canons of art history.
24:29
So, typically there's only between, 3 to 7% of artists in major
24:35
collections and institutions around the world who are women and people of
24:41
What?
24:41
So my… It's really small, and so, like, if you go to major museums, I mean,
24:48
it's usually, , a male dominated world.
24:50
And so in my own way, in this little small section of, Durham, I wanted
24:55
to create this awareness that, um… And it's recreation of what,
25:00
what is beauty, redefining what is profound, and reclaiming what is
25:07
worthy of attention in art history.
25:11
And so that has been, you know, that's been the through line of
25:15
the work that I've been doing.
25:17
and some of it…
25:18
comes through
25:19
Yeah.
25:20
And one of the things that, you know, talking to you, made me
25:23
realize is that there were a lot of pieces in my collections
25:29
where hair was the focus, right?
25:33
Where… And if hair wasn't the focus, it was an integral part of what the
25:38
artist was trying to say, right?
25:41
Like I remember in my very first exhibition, there was a piece of
25:46
a little girl by Kennedy Carter.
25:48
It was a photograph by Kennedi Carter, and the little girl was standing
25:52
in front of a clothesline with a sheet blowing in the wind, and she
25:57
had two perfect pompoms, right?
26:01
And she's just sitting with her hair, hand over her head, like
26:05
free and just so happy, right?
26:09
Um, and it's like one of those styles that ha- it's sort of not something
26:13
that we see a lot, but it was a modern picture with the little girl
26:18
displaying the freedom of her, her hair.
26:21
Metaphorically and, uh, just speaking, like hair sits at the
26:25
intersection of so much of who we are and how we see ourselves.
26:31
Yeah, it's
26:31
a really interesting lens to look through different aspects of the human
26:35
experience, and art is one of them.
26:37
So that's why I was really interested, especially given the nature of the work
26:41
that you focused on, you know, are there pieces or things that come to mind?
26:45
And that piece you described, I remember seeing it, and I was so thrilled, and
26:50
it really resonated with me because it was experience of me having little
26:54
pom-pom puffs in my hair and, being like that little girl, just to see
26:59
myself represented and highlighted by the artist in such a beautiful way,
27:03
it was very powerful and just made me so-- I think, you know, I felt a
27:08
lot of joy and pride looking at that.
27:11
Yeah.
27:12
And you feel seen, right?
27:16
You feel seen.
27:18
There, yeah, there were just so countless, opportunities when little girls or
27:22
little boys would come in and to see themselves on, represented on the wall
27:26
and, in their sort of natural beauty.
27:29
it's, it's a, it was a profound experience to just see them
27:33
looking up, , at themselves, right?
27:36
Um, I had one artist, and he is, Joel Mamboka.
27:40
He's from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and he had a
27:43
self-portrait that was in my office.
27:45
And he was just in all of his beautiful Black boy joy, with his hair and, and
27:51
then a family came in, and they had two little boys, and they were like, "Oh my
27:56
God," like, "this feels like what our sons will look like and what they'll do
28:00
with their hair when they get older."
28:02
So they bought it, and it was, you know, it was true.
28:05
Like, if you looked at… it was, yeah.
28:07
And so I think at the core, we all wanna see ourselves, We all wanna
28:11
feel that we are seen.
28:13
And, that exercise, that e- intersection of art and hair is pretty powerful.
28:20
I didn't think about it as much until I met you, and then I thought, started
28:24
thinking about all the constructs
28:27
you'd have some.
28:28
I knew you'd have those stories, right?
28:30
Because of the space and what I'd seen in the gallery.
28:33
And
28:33
I think you were telling me, can you tell me a little bit more about the artist
28:36
that, um, with the pencils and that story?
28:39
Oh,
28:39
different way of how art intersects with, with hair.
28:43
I'd love to, for people to hear about that.
28:45
Yeah, so it's, uh, it's really something interesting, and I
28:48
had never heard of this story.
28:50
But, in, the United States, there was this way during probably the, the civil rights
28:57
era, a little bit before, that there was this, I won't even call it a hint, but
29:01
there was this era of internal racism.
29:04
There was a thing called the paper bag test, where there were certain
29:08
organizations, certain universities, and they basically were like, "If you're
29:12
darker than a paper bag, then you can't do this or you can't do that." And it was
29:15
sort of internal to the Black community.
29:18
And so that's something that's known, pretty well known.
29:21
But what I didn't know until I met, artist Steven Cozart, is that in South
29:26
Africa, they had, during apartheid, they had a different construct around race.
29:31
And so it was called the pencil test.
29:34
And if you put a pencil in your hair and it slipped through, you were colored.
29:42
If the pencil wouldn't slip through, you were considered Black.
29:47
And so that is such a profound sort of way of thinking, and it was real.
29:53
Like, if you, you know, you go… I had to go and, like, research.
29:57
I'm like, "Whoa, this is…"
29:58
So Steven Cozart, who's an amazing North Carolina artist, he chose to really dig
30:03
into that, and, he did several paintings and art sketches of people with dreadlocks
30:11
with their pencils, basically, like establishing, uh, who they were proudly.
30:17
One of the pieces was so profound, and it was in my gallery.
30:21
There's this brilliant young student, and he has his locks, and he is proudly okay
30:27
with the pencils not going through, right?
30:31
You see that in his stance.
30:32
It's not a cowering.
30:33
His head,
30:33
chin is up.
30:34
Chin's out
30:35
forward.
30:35
He's got a, a, a dress shirt on, a tie,
30:39
and the, the locks are pulled back, and there's, maybe five
30:41
pencils sticking through it.
30:43
Right
30:43
He's professional, he's moving forward in the world, he's looking ahead, and
30:49
he's okay with who he is as a Black man.
30:53
So
30:54
pretty pr- pretty profound
30:56
I had the North Carolina Museum of Art, I had a contingent of curators
31:00
to come to visit me, and they were like, "That piece. Tell us the story."
31:05
So I was able to tell them the story.
31:07
To make a long story short, one of the most, interesting things and one
31:10
of the coolest things in my career as an art curator and gallerist is that
31:15
they said, "Wow, we would love to have this a part of our permanent collection
31:19
in North Carolina Museum of Art."
31:21
So I was able to… It was amazing because they feel like it's a story that
31:26
we should be telling for generations.
31:28
not because we are proud of it, but because if we don't share these
31:34
stories, we will make these same sort of mistakes into our future.
31:38
And so that was, yeah.
31:40
So that was a part of what they were doing and…
31:44
And so now, uh, that piece is a part of the permanent collection
31:48
So people could come and see it perhaps?
31:50
I don't think it's on exhibition yet, but it will be soon.
31:54
And it will be, yeah.
31:56
That's so exciting.
31:57
I'm excited for people to, to see more of that and the stories we shared.
32:02
And I also wanted to talk to you because you're in the art space and
32:05
you've loved art for a long time,
32:07
and but you've also worked in the corporate world.
32:09
So can you tell us a little bit about how you really got interested in
32:14
art early on and, and how that grew?
32:16
Because I think a lot of people, maybe have gone to museums in school or maybe
32:20
even they're visiting a town, but, there's a love there that you have
32:24
cultivated and, and deepened as part of your craft and your understanding.
32:28
So how did you get started?
32:31
Well, so I guess I have to give a nod to my seventh grade art teacher,
32:36
um, who, , I grew up in a time when, it was post- post-segregation.
32:42
And so a lot of the schools that were integrated in Charlotte-Mecklenburg
32:47
school systems got the best and the brightest of the school teacher,
32:51
Black school teachers that were, had once been in segregated schools.
32:55
so I had just this whole continuum of, uh, just stellar Black,
33:01
African American teachers.
33:03
And one of them was my art teacher.
33:05
His name is Winston Fletcher.
33:06
And the cool thing about Mr. Fletcher was that he was well-known.
33:11
He actually went to North Carolina Central.
33:13
He was an art major.
33:15
He was best friends with Ernie Barnes.
33:18
Um, his father was the art professor at North Carolina College before
33:22
it became North Carolina Central.
33:24
So of course, I just knew him as Mr. Fletcher.
33:26
I didn't know all of this until I got to be a grownup, that he
33:29
was in such a pivotable, place.
33:31
Yes, deep in the art world.
33:33
But what he did was he shared, like, his love for not only the greats like
33:38
Picasso and, uh, Monet, but he shared his love for Black artist, right?
33:47
And so, Edmonia Lewis, who was a Black sculptor who went to Italy and, there's
33:52
a postage stamp with her name on it now.
33:55
So I always carried my love for art from that place.
34:00
… I was a pretty good writer as a kid, and so he would just praise
34:03
my, writing and would tell me things like, "You know, you're gonna, I was
34:08
not a artist, like I couldn't draw stick figures, and he would sometimes
34:12
tell me I wasn't trying hard enough.
34:14
But he would cer- you know, certainly pra- praise me for being a good
34:17
writer and for, like, advocating.
34:19
He said, "You're gonna always be a, an advocate for the arts."
34:21
So I think that stuck with me.
34:23
Very interesting.
34:24
So, um, after all that time, before I started the gallery, I actually went to
34:29
his house and told him what I was doing.
34:31
And he's up in age, and his daughter actually brought him from
34:35
Charlotte to the gallery to see
34:38
Wow.
34:39
That is beautiful
34:40
what his love and what his commitment to the arts had done, for me.
34:46
So that was a really cool situation.
34:49
but I kept, you know, kept that love, and as I got older and got old enough
34:54
to even, have just a little job, I started buying art, and I remember
34:58
the very first piece of art I bought.
35:00
I was in my 20s, and it took me about nine months to pay for it.
35:04
And then once I had this piece with an original artist signature,
35:08
like, I was, like, hooked, right?
35:11
Like, this is mine.
35:12
So that piece has followed me everywhere in my life.
35:15
And then I just started collecting, and then I realized, oh my gosh,
35:18
collecting is more than just for the rich and the famous,
35:23
Hmm.
35:23
right?
35:24
So
35:25
I go to a city, I go on vacation, I am wherever I am, and there's
35:33
street art, and there's some brilliant original artists out on
35:37
the streets, like, doing their work.
35:39
So I started collecting, from street artists, and then I love, pottery.
35:43
So I started this sort of collection and, um, and then as I got older, I started
35:50
visiting the North Carolina Museum of Art.
35:52
I actually started visiting the art, uh, museum in, when I was in college.
35:56
It had just opened in North Carolina.
35:59
It was a place of refuge for me.
36:01
Uh, and then I would say one day I'm gonna be a docent, right?
36:03
'Cause I would love to, like, hear the docents.
36:05
And so, you know, I just, like, fell in love with art.
36:08
And then, I would find all the opportunities to go to art festivals
36:12
or art shows, and if I was in a city, I wanted to always go to the museum.
36:16
I always wanted to go to see the galleries and, really became supportive
36:20
of the North Carolina Museum of Art.
36:22
and then I became a trustee for the museum, and then I had this opportunity
36:27
after taking an early retirement package from my corporate job to go
36:31
to MBA school at UNC Chapel Hill, and then in the middle of that program, I
36:36
said, "What am I gonna do with this?"
36:37
And so I asked myself the question, "What would you do if you could create any
36:41
kind of business from a place of love?"
36:47
And it was, I kept coming back to an art gallery.
36:51
And so I dug into learning as much as I could.
36:55
I went to the Sotheby's school.
36:57
I just threw myself into it, and then I, opened an art gallery.
37:02
Uh, I threw myself into learning what it meant to be curator, and
37:05
here I am, art advisor, curator
37:09
Doing
37:10
gallerist.
37:11
Yeah.
37:12
I love that story, And I think also for people who enjoy art but maybe weren't
37:18
exposed to collecting it, the thing you said about going and getting street
37:22
art, that's really interesting too.
37:23
It doesn't have
37:24
to be your first piece that's thousands and thousands of dollars, right?
37:27
It does not have to be, but what I will say, and I'm, I will beat this drum,
37:32
is that for the same price you might go to HomeGoods and pick up like just
37:36
a random piece of art that is made in another country that's not original, you
37:40
could probably find something original.
37:42
So there's so many ways, there's so many ways to, uh, to acquire
37:47
art and to start your collection.
37:49
Sometimes it could be a photograph, right?
37:51
but what I will say is that art collecting is more than just decorating walls.
37:56
It's preserving narratives.
37:58
It's stewardship.
38:00
It's, uh, telling a history that might be erased if we're not careful.
38:04
And so it's a really important part, and it should be a part of all of our
38:09
collective responsibility, a civic responsibility to make sure, first of
38:14
all, that we support living artists so they can keep doing what they do, color
38:19
the world beautiful, and that we are adding to our midst these amazing stories.
38:24
So when people walk into our house, we are sharing these narratives.
38:28
and by doing so, they never go away, right?
38:30
Generation after generation.
38:32
And, . that's part of what I want to do, is to teach people how to
38:36
collect, to encourage people not to be afraid, to inspire artists
38:41
to continue to do their work.
38:43
And so that's sort of my last life's mission, is to
38:47
just keep this ecosystem growing.
38:50
They help each other, right?
38:52
'Cause
38:52
the artists
38:52
help each other.
38:54
the curat- we need all the
38:55
We need all of the pieces.
38:58
You know, when I was a young kid, my grandma used to say, "Beauty is
39:01
in the eye of the beholder," right?
39:03
There was this old saying.
39:05
And so everybody has something that calls their heart and their spirit,
39:10
and this innate ability and this innate appreciation is within all of us, right?
39:16
But then you get to decide, what, what does that mean for me as an individual?
39:20
And that's how sort of the, the mix of artwork and the, the mix of
39:25
artists comes out to play, right?
39:26
Because every single artist is not for everybody, right?
39:30
Or a certain artwork.
39:31
But everybody has a eye for something.
39:34
For something.
39:35
Hmm.
39:36
Yeah.
39:36
And so it's just this beautiful mix, you know?
39:41
Um, and, and the other thing that I love about art is that everybody gets
39:46
to create their own narrative around what they see, and it's really personal.
39:53
Yeah
39:53
And nobody else can tell you what it is or what you wanna think.
39:56
I mean, they can share what they think, but it's something that's between you
39:59
and the art piece, whatever that is.
40:02
- It's a really intimate, thing.
40:03
So, I could go on about art,
40:05
, and when you have something that you know nobody else in the world has this, zero,
40:10
Ja.
40:10
uh, it becomes really special, and you feel a responsibility.
40:16
You feel a responsibility for it.
40:18
I mean, like, and then it's building legacy.
40:20
You're building a legacy.
40:21
So I'm talking a lot about that.
40:23
I have two daughters and, at first they didn't really think much about artwork.
40:27
I mean, it was just whatever was on the walls.
40:29
But now they're like, "Okay, so when something happens to you, like,
40:33
what does Cindy get?" Like, I think we should also be thinking about
40:36
our legacies in that way and making sure we're protecting the pieces.
40:39
I did an estate plan for, um, my artwork, right?
40:43
So that's not something that I'm leaving to chance.
40:46
And that's another thing I'm talking to families about is, make sure
40:50
that whatever… You know, some kids are not interested in art,
40:53
and so what happens to it, right?
40:55
We don't want y- the pieces that you've invested in maybe 20, 30
40:58
years ago to be in a flea market.
41:01
You
41:01
know,
41:01
great for me, bad for,
41:03
Yeah.
41:03
And some of
41:04
the, some of the great stuff ends up there, right?
41:06
I've found some pretty amazing pieces.
41:08
Wow.
41:09
Wow,
41:09
wow
41:10
Yeah.
41:11
So the way you do that, though, is to just have your own plan.
41:14
You know?
41:14
Like, okay, I want this to go to the university, or I want
41:17
this to go to my alma mater, or I want this to go to a museum.
41:21
and then, maybe my grandchildren.
41:23
but, there's something about that as
41:25
Yeah.
41:26
Finding a good home for it.
41:28
yeah, and making sure that it, um, lives on.
41:31
Lives on.
41:32
That's beautiful.
41:34
Well, I wanna just give you a time to talk about, as you think about
41:37
the future, what you're excited for, what you're working on.
41:40
Is there anything you would like to share with our audience?
41:43
Well, what I will say is in this next chapter or the next act, I
41:48
really wanna focus on helping people to create their own collections.
41:52
And so, I'm starting, a new platform called, Living Artfully.
41:57
In this new era, we're gonna be teaching people how to collect, how to start your
42:04
first, your early collections, how to take care of them, what to be thinking about,
42:09
how to think about budgeting for them.
42:11
I have a new e-book that's gonna be coming out, in a few months.
42:15
And yeah, so I'm pretty excited about that, and then we're gonna
42:20
be talking about some of these things that we talked about.
42:22
We're gonna be talking about legacy.
42:24
We're gonna be talking a lot about stewardship, and then really showing
42:28
how people live with their art, right?
42:31
What it feels like in someone's home.
42:33
Yeah, so more to come.
42:35
I think there's a great place for that because a lot of people don't
42:39
have that exposure and what the vision that you're painting and
42:42
this, the story you're telling.
42:43
I'm very excited.
42:44
That's the one thing about art, and probably the same for hair, it
42:48
can be different every single day
42:50
Absolutely.
42:51
Yeah, I think, I think that through line is there's, there's so much even more we
42:55
could talk about, but I, I really loved how you talk about and express beauty.
43:01
So we definitely wanna know about the e-book.
43:04
And I just wanna just say, Linda, ever since meeting you in your gallery, you've
43:07
been such an inspiration to me, and you are truly a beautiful person inside
43:12
and out, and that radiates.
43:14
And,
43:14
so much.
43:15
And I would say
43:16
this conversation with you.
43:19
Ditto
43:21
Yes.
43:21
And we wanna celebrate all that you're doing, and I think that's
43:24
the, the place for this podcast.
43:25
We talk about hair, but we also wanna talk about you because, you're a person
43:29
that many, many people need to know.
43:32
So we thank you so much for being on the podcast.
43:35
Thank you, Shadia.
43:36
You are absolutely remarkable, and I just thank you for, like,
43:40
highlighting these beautiful stories and, I just wish you so much luck.
43:44
You are an inspiration to us all
43:47
Oh, thank you.
43:48
Well, this is the Tight Curls Project podcast.
43:51
I'm Shadia.
43:52
Thank you so much for listening.
43:54
And if you're on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, we invite you to subscribe
43:57
wherever you're getting your podcasts, so you don't miss an episode.
44:01
If you have a question or comment, come find us on Instagram.
44:04
And until next time, take care and show your curls some love.