Latest / Rounding Up / Improving Students' Turn & Talk Experience with Ramsey Merritt

Transcript

Improving Students' Turn & Talk Experience with Ramsey Merritt · Rounding Up

0:03
Most educators know what a turn and talk is,
0:06
but are your students excited to do them? In this episode,
0:10
we put turn and talks under a microscope.
0:14
We'll talk with Ramsey Merrit from the Harvard Graduate School of Education
0:18
about ways to revamp and better scaffold, turn,
0:21
and talks to ensure your students are having productive mathematical
0:26
discussions. Welcome to the podcast Ramsey.
0:31
So great to have you on.
0:32
It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
0:36
So turn and talk's been around for a while now and I guess I'd call it
0:39
ubiquitous at this point. When I visit classrooms,
0:43
I see turn and talks happen often with quite mixed results.
0:47
And I wanted to start with this question at the broadest level.
0:51
What's the promise of a turn and talk when strategically done well,
0:56
what's it good for?
0:58
I think at the broadest level,
1:00
we want students talking about their thinking and we also want them listening
1:05
to other students thinking and ideally being open to reflect,
1:10
ask questions and maybe even change their minds on their own thinking or add a
1:15
new strategy to their thinking. That's at the broadest level.
1:19
I think if we were to zoom in a little bit,
1:21
I think turn and talks are great for idea generation.
1:26
When you are entering a new concept or a new lesson or a new unit,
1:30
I think they're great for comparing strategies.
1:34
They're obviously great for building listening skills with the caveat that you
1:38
put structures in place for them, which I'm sure we'll talk about later.
1:42
And building critical thinking and questioning skills as well.
1:46
I think I've also seen turn and talks broadly categorized
1:51
into engagement and it's interesting when I read that
1:56
because to me I think about engagement as the teacher's responsibility and
2:01
what the teacher needs to do no matter what the pedagogical tool is.
2:04
So no matter whether it's a turn and talk or something else,
2:08
engagement is what the teacher needs to craft and create a
2:13
moment.
2:14
And I think a lot of what we'll probably talk about today is about crafting
2:18
moments for the turn and talk. In other words,
2:21
how to engage students in a turn and talk,
2:24
but not that a turn and talk is automatically engagement.
2:30
I love that and I think the language that you've used around crafting is really
2:34
important and it gets to the heart of what I was excited about in this
2:37
conversation because a turn and talk is a tool,
2:41
but there is an art and a craft to designing its
2:45
implementation that really can make or break the tool itself.
2:51
If we look back a little bit as to where Turn and Talk came from,
2:55
I sort of tried to dig into the papers on this and what I found was
3:00
that it seems as if Turn and Talks may have been a sort of spinoff
3:05
of the think pair share, which has been around a little bit longer.
3:09
And what's interesting in looking into this is I
3:14
think that Turn and Talks were originally positioned as a sort of cousin of
3:18
think, pair share that can be more spontaneous and more in the moment.
3:24
And I think what has happened is we've lost the
3:28
think part. So we've run with it and we've said this is great,
3:33
but we forgot that students still need time to think
3:38
before they turn and talk.
3:40
And so what I see a lot is it gets to be somewhat too
3:44
spontaneous and certain students are not prepared to just jump into
3:48
conversations and we have to take a step back and sort of think about that.
3:54
That really leads into my next question quite well because I have
3:58
to confess that when I've attended presentations,
4:02
there are points in time when I've been asked to turn and talk when I
4:07
can tell you I had not a lot of interest nor a lot of clarity about
4:12
what I should do.
4:14
And then there were other points where I couldn't wait to start that
4:18
conversation and I think this is the craft and it's also the place where we
4:23
should probably think about what are the pitfalls that can derail
4:27
or have a turn and talk kind of lose the value that's possible.
4:32
How would you talk about that?
4:34
Yeah,
4:35
it is funny that we as adults have that reaction when people say turn and talks.
4:40
The three big ones that I see the most, and I should sort of say here,
4:44
I've probably been in 75 to a hundred buildings and
4:49
triple or quadruple that for classrooms.
4:51
So I've seen a lot of turn and talks just like you said,
4:55
and the three big ones for me,
4:57
I'll start with the one that I see less frequently but still see it enough to
5:01
cringe and want to tell you about it and it's what I call the stall turn and
5:05
talk.
5:06
So it's where teachers will sometimes use it to buy themselves a little time.
5:11
I have literally heard teachers say something along the lines of, okay,
5:16
turn and talk to your neighbor while I go grab something off the printer.
5:19
But the two biggest ones I think lead to turn and talk failure
5:24
are a lack of specificity. And in that same vein too,
5:28
what are you actually asking them to discuss?
5:31
So there's a bit of vagueness in the prompting,
5:35
so that's one of the big ones. The other big one for me is,
5:39
and it seems so simple,
5:41
and I think most elementary teachers are very good at using an
5:46
engaging voice.
5:47
They've learned what tone does for students and what signals tone sends
5:52
to them about is now the time to engage, should I be excited?
5:56
But I so often see the turn and talk launched enthusiastically
6:01
and that leads to an engagement deficit and that's what you're
6:06
starting out with. If you don't have a good launch,
6:09
students are already sort of against you because you
6:14
haven't made them excited to talk.
6:16
I mean those things resonate.
6:18
And I have to say there are some of them that I cringe because I've been guilty
6:22
of doing definitely the first thing when I've been unprepared.
6:26
But I think these two that you just shared,
6:29
they really go to this question of how intentionally I am thinking
6:34
about building that sense of engagement and also digging into the features that
6:39
make a turn and talk effective and engaging.
6:43
So let's talk about the features that make turn and talks effective and engaging
6:47
for students.
6:48
I've heard you talk about the importance of picking the right moment for a turn
6:52
and talk. So what's that mean?
6:54
So for me,
6:55
I break it down into three key elements and one of them as you say is
7:00
the timing. And this might actually be the most important element,
7:04
and it goes back to the origin story is if you ask a question and say you
7:09
haven't planned a turn and talk,
7:10
but you ask a question to a whole group and you see 12 hands shoot up,
7:15
that is an ideal moment for a turn and talk.
7:17
You automatically know that students are interested in this topic.
7:22
So I think that's the sort of origin story is instead of whipping around the
7:27
room and asking all 12 students, because especially at the elementary level,
7:31
if students don't get their chance to share, they are very disappointed.
7:34
So I've also seen these moments drag out far too long.
7:38
So it's kind of a good way to get everyone's voice heard. Maybe they're not
7:42
saying it out to the whole group,
7:43
but they get to have everyone's voice heard and also you're buying into the
7:48
engagement that's already there. So that would be the more spontaneous version,
7:52
but you can plan in your lesson planning to
7:58
time a turn and talk at a specific moment if you know your students well enough
8:02
that you know can get them engaged in.
8:05
And so that leads to one of the other points is the launch itself,
8:11
then you're really thinking about, okay,
8:13
I think this could be an interesting moment for students.
8:17
Let me think a little bit deeper about what the hook is.
8:20
Almost every teacher knows what a hook is,
8:22
but they typically think about the hook at the very top of their lesson and they
8:27
don't necessarily think about how do I hook students in to every
8:32
part of my lesson? And maybe it's not a full one minute launch,
8:36
maybe it's not a full hook, but you got to reengage students,
8:40
especially now in this day and time we're seeing students with increasingly
8:44
smaller attention spans.
8:46
So it's important to think about how you're launching every single piece of your
8:50
lesson. And then the third one,
8:53
which goes against that origin story that I may or may not even be right about,
8:57
but it goes against that sort of spontaneous nature of turn and talks is
9:02
I think the best turn and talks are usually planned out in advance.
9:05
So for me it's planning, timing and launching.
9:09
Those are my elements to success when I'm coaching teachers on doing a turn and
9:13
talk.
9:14
Another question that I wanted to unpack is talk about what the
9:19
turn and talk is a vehicle,
9:20
but there's also content and so I'm wondering about that.
9:23
And then I'm also wondering are there prompts or particular types of questions
9:28
that educators can use that are more interesting and engaging and they help
9:33
draw students in and build that engagement experience you were talking about?
9:37
Yeah, and it's funny you say talk about what,
9:39
because that's actually feedback that I've given to teachers when I say,
9:43
how did that go for you? And they go, well, it went okay. And I said, well,
9:46
what did you ask them to talk about?
9:48
What is important to think about in that planning process?
9:52
So I hate to throw something big out there,
9:55
but I would actually argue that at this point we have seen the turn and talk
10:00
sort of devolve into something that is stigmatized that often is vague.
10:05
So what if instead of calling everything a turn and talk,
10:09
you had specific types of turn and talks in your classroom
10:14
and these would take a little time to routinize,
10:16
students would have to get used to them.
10:20
But one idea I had is what if you just called one pick aside,
10:25
pick a side,
10:26
it tells the students right away what they need to do. It's extremely specific.
10:30
So you're giving them one or two or well not one,
10:34
you're giving them two or three strategies and you're telling them you have to
10:39
pick one of these and you're going to be explaining to your partner your
10:42
rationale as to why you think that strategy works best or most efficiently.
10:47
Or maybe it's a error analysis kind of thing. Maybe you plant one N as wrong,
10:51
one N is right. And then you still ask them, pick a side here,
10:55
who do you agree with?
10:56
And then you also get a check for understanding because the students around the
11:00
room who are picking the wrong one,
11:02
you're picking up data on what they understand about the topic.
11:06
Another one you can do is you could just call it justify your thinking,
11:11
justify your thinking. So that just simply says to them,
11:14
I have to explain to the person next to me why I'm thinking the way that I'm
11:18
thinking about this prompt or this problem. So that could also be a help their
11:23
thinking.
11:23
So maybe you put up someone's thinking on the board that is half baked and
11:28
now their job is to help that person.
11:31
So that's a sort of deeper knowledge kind of thing too.
11:35
And then the last one is we can turn the what do you notice,
11:38
what do you wonder into a routine that is very similar to a turn and talk where
11:42
both people have an opportunity to share what they're wondering or what they're
11:46
noticing. But I think no matter what you call them,
11:50
no matter how you routinize them,
11:52
I think it's important to be more specific than turn and talk.
11:58
You use the word routinized.
11:59
It's making me think a lot about why we find routines to have value, right?
12:04
Because once you teach a particular routine, kids know what it is to do,
12:08
said routine,
12:09
they know what it is to show up when you're doing which one doesn't belong.
12:12
They know the role that they play.
12:14
And I think part of what really jumps out is if you had a
12:19
series of more granular turn and talk experiences
12:24
that you were trying to cultivate kids actually have a sense of what it is to do
12:29
a turn and talk if you are helping thinking or if you are agreeing
12:34
or disagreeing or whatever the choice might be.
12:38
That's right for me, everything,
12:40
even when I'm working with middle and high school teachers,
12:43
I say the more that you can put structures in place that remove those sort of
12:48
barriers for thinking, the better off you're going to be.
12:51
And so we could talk more too about how to differentiate and scaffold,
12:56
turn and talk. Sometimes that gets forgotten as well.
12:59
But I think the other piece I would love to point out here is around,
13:04
you're right, turn and talk is so ubiquitous and what that means.
13:08
What I've seen in schools, if I've seen,
13:10
I'll go into a school and I might watch four different teachers teach the same
13:14
lesson and the turn and talk will look and feel differently in each room.
13:19
So the other advantage to being more specific is that if a student,
13:24
let's say they went to,
13:25
because even in an elementary school you might go to a specialist,
13:28
you might go to art class and that teacher might use a turn and talk
13:33
and what happens is they sort of get this general
13:37
idea around the turn and talk and then they come into your
13:42
room with whatever the turn and talk was in the last class or however the
13:46
teacher used it last year. So to me there's also a benefit in personalizing it
13:51
to your room as well so that you can get rid of some of that stigma if it
13:56
wasn't going well for the student before,
13:58
especially if you then go in and scaffold it.
14:02
Let's talk a little bit about those scaffolds and maybe dig in a little bit
14:05
deeper to some of the different kinds of routinized turn and talks.
14:09
I'm wondering if you wanted to unpack anything in particular that you think
14:13
would really be important for a teacher to think about as they're trying to take
14:17
up the ideas that we've been discussing.
14:20
And one of the simplest ones to implement is the partner a, partner B routine.
14:25
I think maybe many of your listeners will be like, yeah, I use that.
14:30
But one of the pieces that's really important there is that you really hold
14:34
students accountable to honoring partner a's time.
14:38
So when partner A is speaking, partner B needs to be trying to make,
14:42
not everybody can do the eye contact thing,
14:45
but there are some things that you can recommend and suggest for them.
14:49
Maybe they have something to take notes.
14:52
So this could be having whiteboards at your rug, it could be clipboards,
14:57
it could be that they have a turn and talk thought catcher notebook or folder
15:02
and it doesn't matter what it is,
15:05
but not everyone has the same processing skills.
15:09
So we think about turn and talk sometimes as spontaneous,
15:13
but we're forgetting that 12 students raise their hand and they were eager.
15:17
What about the other 12 or 15? If they didn't raise their hand,
15:22
it could be that they're shy but they have something on their mind.
15:25
But it also could be that you just threw out a prompt and they haven't fully
15:29
processed it yet.
15:30
We know kids process things at different times and at different speeds.
15:35
So incorporating in that, maybe it's even a minute up top,
15:38
everybody's taking their silent and solo minute to think about this prompt.
15:43
Then partner A is going to go.
15:45
It's about equity and voice across the room. It's about encouraging listening,
15:50
it's about giving think time.
15:53
Well, I want to stop and mark a couple things.
15:55
What occurs to me is that in some ways a podcast interview like this is one long
16:00
turn and talk in the sense that you and I are both listening and talking with
16:03
one another. And as you were talking,
16:06
one of the things I realized is I didn't have a piece of paper with me.
16:10
And what you were saying really connects deeply because even if it's just
16:15
jotting down a word or two to help me remember that was a
16:19
salient point or this is something that I want to follow up on that's really
16:24
critical.
16:25
Otherwise it really can feel like it can evaporate and then you're left
16:30
not being able to explore something that might've been really important.
16:33
I think the other thing that jumps out is the way that this notion of having a
16:38
notepad or something to jot is actually a way to not necessarily
16:43
just privilege spoken communication that if I'm going to
16:48
process or if I'm going to try to participate,
16:50
having something like that might actually open up space for a kid
16:55
whose favorite thing to do isn't to talk and process as they're
17:00
talking. Does that make sense?
17:02
Totally.
17:02
I had a student in a program I was working with this summer who was
17:08
13 years old but was selectively mute and the student
17:12
teachers who were working in this room wanted to still be able to do a turn and
17:16
talk and they had her still partner with people,
17:20
but she wrote down sentences and she literally held up her whiteboard
17:25
and then the other student responded to the sentence that she wrote down on her
17:29
whiteboard. So that's real.
17:31
And to your other point about being able to jot down so you can remember,
17:36
yeah, we have to remember we're talking about 6, 7, 8, 9 year olds.
17:40
We're fully functioning adults and we still need to jot things down.
17:44
So imagine when your brain is not even fully developed,
17:49
we can't expect them to remember something from when they haven't been allowed
17:53
to interrupt the other.
17:55
And so I think going on now what you're saying is that then makes me think
18:00
about the partner.
18:02
A partner B thing could also sort of tamper down the excitement a little bit if
18:07
you make another student wait.
18:09
So you also have to think about maybe that time in between you might need to
18:13
reengage. That's my own thinking right now,
18:17
evolving as we're talking.
18:19
So in some ways this is a nice segue to something else that you really made me
18:23
think about when we were preparing for this interview.
18:25
Much of what I was thinking about is the role of the teacher in finding the
18:29
moment, as you said,
18:30
where you can build excitement and build engagement or thinking about the kind
18:35
of prompts that have a specificity and how that could impact the substance of
18:40
what kids are talking about.
18:42
But what really jumped out from our conversation is that there's also a
18:45
receptive side of turn and talk,
18:49
meaning that there are people who are talking,
18:52
but we also don't want the other person to just be passive.
18:56
What does it look like to support the listening side of turn and talk?
19:00
And I would love it if you would talk about the kinds of things you think it's
19:04
important for educators to think about when they're thinking about that side of
19:08
turn and talk.
19:09
I would say don't forget about sentence starters that have to do with
19:14
listening. So often when we're scaffolding,
19:17
we're thinking about how do I get them to share out,
19:20
how do I get them to be able to address this prompt?
19:24
But one of the easiest scaffolds that I've heard for listening and it works
19:28
very,
19:28
very well is what I heard you say is blank.
19:34
And so then the receptive student knows that A tells
19:39
them they have to be listening pretty carefully because they're about to be
19:42
asked to repeat what the other person said,
19:45
and this is an age old elementary school sort of piece of pedagogy is a
19:50
call and response situation,
19:52
but then we want to give them a stem that allows them maybe to ask a
19:56
question. So it's what I heard you say was blank.
20:01
What I'm wondering is blank.
20:04
So that takes it to the next thinking level. But again,
20:08
it's about being really specific and very intentional with your students and
20:12
saying, when it's partner B's turn,
20:15
you must lead with what I heard you say is and only then can
20:19
you get to your thinking or asking questions.
20:23
That's huge.
20:24
I think particularly when you think about the fact that there may be status
20:29
issues between partner A and partner B.
20:32
If partner A is seen as or sees themselves as someone who's good at math
20:38
and that's less true for partner B,
20:40
the likelihood of actually listening in a productive way seems like
20:45
it's in danger at the very least. So see these as tools that really do one,
20:50
build a level of accountability responsibility,
20:54
but also level the playing field when it comes to things like status between two
20:58
students.
20:59
I would agree with that. Yeah, I think too,
21:02
we always want to be mixing our groups. I think sometimes you get,
21:06
when I think about those sort of people or those students who you
21:11
can walk into any classroom and you right away can look around the room,
21:15
if you've seen enough math teaching,
21:18
you can see the students who have the most confidence in math.
21:22
So another piece to sort of leveling that field is making sure that your turn
21:27
and talks are not always built on skill or high
21:32
level conceptual understanding.
21:34
So that's where it might be helpful to have a more low floor task,
21:38
like a what do you notice, what do you wonder?
21:40
But using the turn and talk routine of that.
21:44
So it gives people more of a chance to get involved even when they don't have
21:49
the highest level.
21:49
It's kind of like the same idea with a which one doesn't belong or a typical
21:54
number talk, but so you as the teachers have to be thinking about,
21:58
okay,
21:59
yesterday we did one that was comparing two people's strategies and I know that
22:03
some of my students didn't quite understand either one of them. So today in
22:08
order to rebuild some of that confidence,
22:10
I might do a version of a turn and talk that is much more open
22:15
to different kinds of thinking.
22:18
You started to go there in this last conversation we had about supporting
22:23
the receptive side of turn and talk.
22:24
I did want to ask if we can go a little bit deeper and think about tools like
22:29
anchor charts, and you already mentioned sentence prompts, but sentence frames.
22:33
To what extent do you feel like those can be helpful in building the kinds of
22:38
habits we're talking about and do you have any thoughts about those or any other
22:42
resources that you think are important scaffolds?
22:45
Yeah, I have seen some really,
22:49
really wonderful teachers bring in such a simple way of
22:53
activating an anchor chart and that is especially,
22:57
it's easier to do an inquiry-based learning,
22:58
but I think you can do it in any kind of classroom is when a student presents
23:03
their thinking early on in a unit and let's say we're talking about
23:07
comparing fractions and they say, this is how I compared fractions,
23:12
and you're annotating and you're charting it up for them as the teacher,
23:16
you can call that strategy Maya's strategy.
23:21
And so now it has a little bit more stickiness for both the students and
23:26
for you. Now you know that there's a specific mathematical name for that
23:30
strategy, but the students don't necessarily need to know that.
23:34
You could put it in parentheses if you want,
23:37
but I have seen that be really effective and I've actually heard other students
23:42
go, I'm going to use Maya's strategy for this one and able to then look and
23:46
reference it. I think what happens sometimes with the anchor charts is we still
23:50
live in a sort of Pinterest world and some people want those anchor charts to be
23:54
beautiful,
23:55
but they're not actually useful because it was drawn up perfectly and it's
23:59
lovely and it's pretty, but the students don't have a real connection to it.
24:03
So the other piece to that is the co-creation of the anchor chart.
24:06
So it's not just naming the student,
24:08
it's also going through it step by step. Maybe they're leading through it,
24:13
maybe you're guiding it, maybe you're asking probing questions,
24:16
maybe you throw in a turn and talk in the middle of that sort of
24:20
exploration and then students have a connection to that piece of paper
24:26
anchor charts that have been created during your prep period.
24:29
I guarantee you will have very little effect.
24:32
So that's how I feel about those. I also love,
24:35
I call them like mini anchor charts, but they sit on tables.
24:38
In recent years I've seen more and more,
24:40
especially in elementary classrooms and I've encouraged them at the middle
24:43
school and the high school level of putting in a little,
24:47
I don't really know the best way to describe it for listeners,
24:50
but it sits on the tabletop and it's almost like a placard holder.
24:54
And inside of that you put a mini version of an anchor chart that sits at the
24:59
student's tables.
25:00
So if you're doing turn and talks at their desk and they're sitting in desks of
25:04
four and that's right there in front of them with some sentence starters or
25:07
maybe your very specific routines pick aside,
25:11
and then you have the three steps to picking aside underneath.
25:14
If that's sitting on the table right in front of them,
25:17
they are much more likely to reference it than if it's on the wall across the
25:20
room.
25:21
That gets a little trickier if you're down at the rug if you're doing turn and
25:25
talks down at the rug, but hey,
25:27
you can get a slightly bigger one and stick a few down on the rug around them
25:31
too if you really need to.
25:33
I love that. That seems powerful and yet imminently practical.
25:38
I've seen it work.
25:40
Well, this happens to me every time I do a podcast.
25:43
I have a lovely conversation and we get close to the end of it and I
25:48
find myself asking for listeners.
25:50
What recommendations do you have for people who either want to learn more or
25:54
would like to get started implementing some of the ideas we discussed today?
25:58
Sure.
25:59
I mean the biggest one that I tell both new teachers and veterans when you're
26:02
looking to sort of improve on your practice is to go watch someone else teach.
26:07
So it's as simple as asking a colleague, Hey,
26:10
do you know anybody who does this really well? In fact,
26:12
I've let some PDs at schools where I've said, who in the room is great at this?
26:17
And a few people will throw their hands up and I go, great.
26:20
Instead of me explaining it,
26:21
I'm going to have you tell us why you're so successful at that.
26:24
So the easiest one is to go watch someone who has this down.
26:29
But for some of the things that I've mentioned,
26:31
I would think about not biting off too much.
26:36
So if you are someone who your turn and talks,
26:38
you readily admit that they're not specific,
26:42
they're fully routinized and they don't go well for you,
26:46
I would not recommend putting in four new routines tomorrow,
26:50
the AB partner thing and making the anchor charts for the tables all at once.
26:55
What I always say is try one thing and also be transparent with the
26:59
students. It goes a really long way,
27:02
even with seven year olds when you say, alright guys,
27:06
we're going to do a new version of the turn and talk today because I've
27:11
noticed that some of you have not been able to share as much as I would like you
27:15
to. So we're going to try this, which is for me,
27:19
I hope it allows both people to share and afterwards you can let me know how
27:23
that felt.
27:24
Students really appreciate that gesture and I think that's really important if
27:29
you are going to try something new to sort of be transparent about it.
27:33
Oftentimes when teachers implement something new, it can feel like,
27:37
not a punishment, but it's almost like a, Ooh,
27:39
why is she changing this up on us?
27:42
So letting them know also creates a warmer space too,
27:45
and it shows them that you're learning, you're growing.
27:48
I love that and I think that's a great place to stop. Ramsey, thank you so much.
27:52
It has really been a pleasure talking with you.
27:54
Thank you. Like you said, I could do it all day, so I really appreciate it.
27:58
I wish everyone out there. Well, and thanks again.
28:05
This podcast is brought to you by the Math Learning Center and the Meyer Math
28:08
Foundation dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to
28:12
discover and develop their mathematical confidence and.