Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Batman '89 and Batman Returns - Tim Burton | Houselights #285: Wing of Batman

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Batman '89 and Batman Returns - Tim Burton | Houselights #285: Wing of Batman · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Net party.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Tonight on house Lights, we open our Tim Burton section
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: of the Wing of Batman with Batman from nineteen eighty nine,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: the movie that made the summer blockbuster a cultural event
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: and taught a generation that Bruce Wayne could brood, Gotham
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: could be Gothic, and Danny Elfman's theme could live permanently
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: in your skull its nore mood piece with a bat
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: symbol in the sky, and it still holds up. Then,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: because one dark Batman movie apparently wasn't enough, we followed
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: with Batman Returns from nineteen ninety two, in which Burton
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: got more money, more control, and significantly less oversight and
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: used all of it to make a movie about a
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: woman thrown out of a window who comes back a
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: leather clad and furious, a man raised by penguin seeking
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: revenge on a city that is correctly disgusted by him,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: and Christopher walkin with hair that has its own agenda,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: with me ready to argue this is somehow a Christmas
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: movie and mean it, Darren Moser and playing Alfred to
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: the whole thing, dutifully along with the ride, while quietly
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: wondering what happened to the first movies, restraint John Mills
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: wing of Batman means Michael Keaton remains criminally underrated as
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Bruce Wayne Jack Nicholson makes the joker terrifying and hilarious
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: at once, and Burton fully abandons any pretense of tone
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: By the sequel, Let's grapple hook off a roof. Ask
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: why the penguin's mouth is doing that, and figure out
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: how he got those wonderful toys. This is houselights.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Do you honestly think you're insulting me by saying I'm
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Alfred when I would kill for hair like that? Come on,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Michael Goff's hair is amazing.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: What who said that was an insult?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's saying I'm the servant of the
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: podcast here, and now.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, no, I'm ser old man. You're the steady hand.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: But I was suddenly jumping ahead to Batman and Robin.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I was outraged the way she Silverstone will be after
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: her uncle subjugated himself too.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Bruce wayn Yeah, don't jump ahead, jump ahead. Sorry, I'll
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: jump back, I'll jump back. I'm good, Okay, So I
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: am super excited to talk about this. We have actually
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: talked about Batman eighty nine on this podcast before, but
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: it was a very long time ago. It was we
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: did a special episode about the movies that kind of
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: raised us, like the movies that meant a lot to us,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: and eighty nine was one that I picked, and John,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: I can't remember if you picked it as well.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I would be surprised if I didn't. But you're also
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: asking an old man to recall what he picked, and well,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: that's just not going to go well.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: So so, yeah, just some real quick facts about eighty nine,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: because we'll start with eighty nine and then we'll move
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: on to eighty two and I'm sorry ninety two, but
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: we might flip flop back and forth. But so it
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: was released in June of eighty nine. It's one hundred
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: and twenty six minutes. The budget, the allocated budget was
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: thirty million, but then during production it bumped up to
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: forty eight million. Is a lot of money back then,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: and it was partly because of the writer strike that
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: was going on. And even though it was forty eight million,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: it earned over four hundred million worldwide in nineteen eighty nine.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Money that's insane, Yeah, it was.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: And the thing is with the budget thing that was
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: covered up big time back then. The reported budget. I
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: remember this specifically from like Entertainment Tonight or something like that.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: There was outrage because it cost thirty three million, was
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: what they were reporting before the movie came out, and
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they had cost overruns and stuff like that,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: and they're like, but that's not even including the marketing.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And as somebody who lived through the marketing, it was
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: comical everywhere that bat symbol was everywhere, Like you expected
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: to lift up the lid of your toilet and see
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: the bat symbol. It was everywhere.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: And I think that.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: What's brain breaking about it is everybody was up in
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: arms about the fact that it costs. You know, you know,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: we all believe there's in the thirties, right, and you
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: flash forward to T two, which is two years from now,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: and that broke a hundred million dollars reported budget, and
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it just basically it almost became
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: an arms race from this point forward for people to
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: spend money on their movie. Like this is the point
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: in time in my brain where it seemed like people
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: are like, okay, you know what, we're just going to
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: throw stacks of cash at the production and it's just
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: going to guarantee us a hit sort of thing.
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: Well, and it kind of started to flip, like, yeah,
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: I agree, John. It shifted to big budget didn't mean mismanagement.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: It meant not quality. I'm not going to go that far,
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: but like expectation, there became an audience expectation of oh,
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: now we're reporting high numbers. People aren't saying, oh, well,
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: I can't believe they spent that. They're like, oh my gosh,
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: they spent that. I want to go see that.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: That was a parrot. It was a flex.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a flex. But I also blame Canon
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Films because Canon Film's active in the eighties in the
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: time period leading up to this, would drive dumb trucks
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: of money up to the stars and their movies were
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: always bad. But they'd be like, hey, Sylvester Stallone, you
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: want to play something about an arm wrestler. Here's twenty
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: million dollars and slightly like, oh, okay, that's fine, and
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: it's like you get over the top after that. And
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: so I think that's just the atmosphere it was in.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: But you know, I think that the real challenge with
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: talking about the nineteen eighty nine Batman is what is
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: there left to say about it? Because this it's like
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: talking about Star Wars. It's like, are you going to
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: talk about how much everybody hated that Keaton was cast?
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Like people were outraged that Michael Keaton was cast because
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: they were It's it's fun to go back because everybody
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: loves to talk now about how brutal fans can be
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: and how judgmental and how they're you know this and that,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: and it's like, I hate to break it to you,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: but you go back to this and this is the
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: same time period where people are outraged about Jean Luke
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Picard replacing Captain Kirk and stuff like that. It's just
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: tail as old as time people were. My brother was
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: a huge like I was still younger, my brother was
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: a huge Batman fan. It's his comic collection that got
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: me into Batman. And my brother was not optimistic about
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Michael Keaton. It was like that guy Beetlejuice, mister mom
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: is going to play Batman?
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: How the hell is this going to work?
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's why I really want to focus on.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is a director focused podcast, and John,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: I think that's a wonderful thing to bring up and
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: talk about, because what is there more to talk about?
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Like we all know about the Keaton controversy, we all
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: know about Palance being an ass on set. We know
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: about Sean Young, you know breaking her collarbone who you
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: know before she was going to be able to be
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Vicky Vale and then you know, showing up in costume
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: trying to be Catwoman.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: Everything like that.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: We know all we know all the stories, we know
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: all of these, But I want to talk about, you know,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: how we go how Burton went from Beetlejuice to Batman,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: And I mean we all know Beetlejuice really well, we
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: all know Batman really well. I want to know from
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: that perspective, where do you see Burton in nineteen eighty
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: nine's Batman after seeing Beetlejuice. Darren, do you do you
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: have an opinion on that? Like do you could you
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: figure out like like, yeah, that's the Beetlejuice guy.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: I think the fact that this movie made a world
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: like that is a very Tim Burton thing. I mean,
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: beele Juice, it's the underworld that he's creating. You know,
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: our world is pretty normal, except for you know, the
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: house looks a little weird, but you know, it's it's
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: not that strange, whereas with Batman it's and not the
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: first time. Obviously movies had made worlds before, but we're
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: starting to see, Okay, like we talked about last week,
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: Gotham is now Gotham. It has a flavor and a
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: vibe that is so strong and impacting it imprints and
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: carries through even past Burton. You know, he is casting
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: the mold for what this world looks like. And it's
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: not gonna, I don't think really until Nolan, are we
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: gonna see any sort of real refresh take on the city,
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: you know, in a large sense.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: But yeah, that's where I.
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: See Burton is is just creating that world of Batman.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: You know, obviously there's there's you know, there's cars, there's police,
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: there's there's everyday things. But you get swept into this city,
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: into this place, and I think rightfully, so you know,
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: he's recognizing that the world that Batman exhibits and lives
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: in is almost as important as the character himself. Because
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: if you can buy the world, then you can believe,
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: you know, eventually you know, falling out a twenty story
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: window or whatever and surviving like having a gun as
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: long as your pants, and it's not you know, you're
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: still able to walk. All those little things you kind
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: of just can hand weave because you're locked in. Once
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: you know that that signal hits the sky and it's
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: a fun ride.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: I will offer that I don't necessarily see beetlejuice except
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: in certain animation usages. Here I see, I see that
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: visual sensibility reflected what I see as I see a
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Batman movie that's done by the guy who did Pee
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Wee's Big Adventure. That's what I really see, from Joker
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: suit to I mean Batman's suit too. This looks like
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: the type of direction that I would expect. And the
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: thing is, that's not me throwing shade, because I think
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: pee Wee's Big Adventure is it's an explosion of beautiful creativity.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I think it's just wonderful, and I think that just
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the way that the contraptions are built, the props, I
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: see Pee Wee's Big Adventure, and I guess by extension,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I see some beetlejuice in there as well. The makeup
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: for Joker, I see a beetlejuice sensibility in that, because
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: it's disturbing and silly like it's obviously like a demented
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: take on Joker, like the way that the cheeks are,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: you know, I know that. I mean, did they ever
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: go into how they did the makeup, because I recall
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: at the time there was some sort of thing where
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Nicholson said, you just can't tell people how you did
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: the makeup or some like I'm sure it was all
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: hype or something like that, but like they wouldn't talk
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: about how they did the makeup, even though driving Miss
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Daisy beat it out, which okay, sure, And I think
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: that that's the thing is I see the guy who
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: did Pee Wee's Big Adventure and by extension, Beetle Juice
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: coming into this movie, and it's really the animation elements,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: the way that looks I see from Beetlejuice, the props
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: and costuming sensibility from Pee Wee's Big Adventure. But then
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: that same director of those two movies loves to sneak
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: in the Dutch angle and the silly moment, you know,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: that big reveal of the batmobile that's done with the
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: same sort of loving camera work of revealing Peewee's bike
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: and stuff like that.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Like that, I really like that the parallel that you drew,
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: and it's very honest and real take without you know,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: trying to be silly. You know, like I have a
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: hard time seeing it. I really do, because I feel
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: like this is probably, in my opinion and I'm not
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: saying I'm right, is the least Burton film I've ever seen,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: because when you look at Beetlejuice, when you look at Peewee,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: when you look at anything that came after Returns, they're like, Okay,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: this this Burton. I kind of feel like when Returns
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: came out, I felt like, oh, this is like when
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Wes Anderson realized he was Wes Anderson. I feel like
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Returns is when Burton realized he's Tim Burton. And with
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: eighty nine, it's just something about it that just feels
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: like Batman eighty nine. It feels like its own thing.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: It's it's something that I'm not saying anybody could do it.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that at all, and I'm not trying
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: to take it away from Burton. I think it's one
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: of those things where he looked outside of himself and
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: utilized what he needed, utilized his skill and intelligence to
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: get it done. But we also see that there was
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: some producer with John what was like, there was some
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: producer who is basically the entire reason why we have
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: the cathedral scene.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: Oh was it Uslin? Was he? No?
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Because Michael Uslin is a producer. There was Peters, There's Goober,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: I mean John Peters and Peter Guber Peters. It was
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Peters Peters.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: Okay. But see, the thing is what I think.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Is I think that the restraint that is put on
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Burton's visual sensibility, because I think you're right eighty nine,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: its weird in terms of Burton's filmography. I can look
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: at returns and I see more Tim Burton than I
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: see anything else. I think anybody on Earth would agree
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: with that.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: I think, in.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: All honesty, it's Roger Pratt tamps down on some of
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: these Zanier elements visual elements. And I mean Roger Pratt
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: is an absolutely. I mean, he shot Brazil, he shot
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: the Fisher King, he shot Mary Shelley's Frankenstein directed by
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Brannaw Twelve Monkeys, like you see, you can see
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: there's a visual sensibility. He shot Troy, which I know
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: you love Tristan, so.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I do unabashedly. I don't know what people.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Say, and and so I think that what it is
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: is you see Burton through no pun intended the lens
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: of a DP that isn't his typical DP. He's working
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: with a different DP. I think he has somebody working
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: in the camera who's there not in a bad way
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: to restrain Burton, but to help him and say, listen,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: you're cool. I also know what's going to make the
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: studio happy and going to look good, and we can
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: get a little of what you're going for here. And
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I think that I think that Burton has helped greatly
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: by Pratt's presence. I really really do.
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: I didn't realize that because you're right, because his DP
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: or cinematography for returns with Stefan. You know, Stefan also
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: does Edwood with him, did Edward Scissorhands, so he's more
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: of that Burton flavor. And and it's it's interesting take
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: your you're discussing Tristan, because I mean, I would say
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: most people when they're saying back eighty nine like they're
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: always going to put that qualifier of like made by Tim.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: Burton on it. But you're right, it does not feel like.
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: I wonder what Batman would look it's like, what would
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: Batman look like if made by Tim Burton?
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: And the mind of Tim Burton is.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: Not this movie, but this is it returns, Yeah, this
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: is the movie that Tim Burton made. But yeah, you're right,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: it's because we've seen many takes that he's done on things,
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: and and there is definitely, you know, there's not nearly
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: enough pinstripes in this movie for sure, for one. You know,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: but yeah, no, it it It is obviously Tim Burton.
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: But I kind of agree with you. It's the least
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: tim burtony tim Burton. Well see, but Batman as itself
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: is so powerful, like it still rides. It doesn't need
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: a Tim Burton shot in the arm to become something.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: It's already there.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I think also the base script that he's working with,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: I like, I think I said this probably the last
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: time we talked about it. I think everybody has always
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: approached this as if they wrote a PG Batman movie
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: and then Burton made it PG thirteen with his his zaniness,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: and I am absolutely nobody will ever argue me out
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: of this. He was given an R rated script and
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: then Tim Burton's sensibility made it PG thirteen because there
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: is stuff where like if you really pay attention to,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: like what the joker is doing and stuff like that,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: if it's if it's edited or shot just a little
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: bit differently, you're like, oh, oh no, Like when he
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: kills the guy on the steps with the pen, that's
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: that's actually kind of horrifying. But the way Burton does
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: it is very theatrical and it's very big and so
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: it's less threatening and you know, electrocuting people and all
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: the way, Like the way he kills Grissom is really dark.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: And I think that it's Burton makes it a little
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: in a very positive way, makes it a little sillier
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: so that it doesn't get that R rating. It's got
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: a sensibility where they're like, oh, this is dark, but
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: this is PG thirteen dark, not disturbing to your children dark,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And in eighty nine Dark PG. Thirteen was like, I
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: don't I don't think this would be rated PG thirteen today. No, Okay,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: So I'm not alone in that, No, I agree with you. Okay, okay,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: because you know, we've we've joked, like longtime listeners of
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: the show know that my dad showed me this film
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: and he basically fast forward all the parts that he
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: didn't want me to see, and even though this was
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: a PG thirteen film, it was basically like a ninety
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: minute movie by the time he was done with it.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Well, I the thing is, I don't know, like I
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: would go back and forth on that, because again, my
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: parents failed to put any restraints on me. So my
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: entire lens on that is completely out of whack.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: I frequently talk about the fact I was watching stuff
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't like. When I was eight, I was watching
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: R rated movies, and so I'm completely skewed. What I
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: can tell you is between these two, my at the
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: time nine year old fine with this one totally worked
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: fine for her. Now, again keep in mind who her
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: dad is, and she could not get through Returns. And
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I think that's the sort of thing that is weird
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: because you go over to Returns. And when I saw
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Returns back in the theater I was old enough, people
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: were upset. They were like, oh, I can't take my
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: kid to go see this, and I'm like, what are
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: you talking about?
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: This?
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: This movie's fine. Finally watching it with a kid who
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: was disturbed by Penguin, I was like, oh, oh, I
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: get what those parents were mad about because Batman is
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: enough of a cultural force that when Batman Returns comes
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: out every kid in the world, Mom, Dad, you gotta
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: take me to go see this movie. And it's, oh, well,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: you know what, the we forget the Happy Meal toys.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: There were lots of Happy Meal toys for Batman Returns.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Like, and when Batman Returns came out apparently toy makers
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: and McDonald's and everybody like that was super pissed that
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: we go from eighty nine, which you can have the Joker,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: you can have Batman, you can have Alfred whatever, and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: then you get to Returns and they're super like these
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: people are like, how are we supposed to market this? Like,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: how are we supposed to make toys? How are we
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: supposed to make happy meals? How are we supposed to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: do this when the penguin looks so freaking gross? And
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: that's the thing is that like these blockbuster movies, I mean,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: like eighty nine kind of I think coin the term
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: where like it's it's merchandise. Like like John, you were
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: telling me, like there's a reason why we're getting so
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: many toy story films is so that they can pump
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: up the rides at Disneyland, and the reason why we're
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: going to get more than one Frozen movie is because
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: the merchandise sells like crazy. I'm sorry, folks, if this
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: if you're just now realizing this right, so lesson in
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: economics with house lights like that's the That's what it is.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: That's why Batman was this way, and you have give
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: and take because you've got to think about the ecosystem
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: of merchandising mixed with films, and Returns was a hit
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: on that and it's It's interesting because my parents because
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: like I was one of those kids that was screaming
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: for my parents to take me to Returns because I
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: loved eighty nine. When I was a wee lad, I
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: was way too young to watch it. And then when
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: in ninety two when it came out, I was like
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: take me, take me, and they're like, no, not on
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: your life, we're gonna go see it first. And they
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: came back home and my parents were just bereft. I
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: think it is the best word to use. They're just like,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: we almost walked out. Batman's hardly in it. The penguin
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: is disgusting. It's it's not you know, like it's just
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: not interesting like they were just like I could probably
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: count on what as a gigantic Batman fan as I am,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I could probably count on one hand how many times
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I've seen this movie from beginning to end.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Returns.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: That is tee that that's I It's so weird for
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: me because Returns. I go back and forth when it
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: first came out. It came out at a time that
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I really responded to it, and I think it's because
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: I was. I was having a hard time so Burton's sensibilities.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: He wants to make that movie about Penguin. He loves Penguin.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: He is all about Penguin, and Batman is in it
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: because he has to be. He would have preferred to
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: make a Penguin movie and just to have Batman show
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: up at the end and be like you're totally justified
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Penguin and I support you, and it's like that's That's
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: the thing that is toughest about Returns is I go
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: through this cycle of loving it and not loving it.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I'll never hate it, I'll never go away from it.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: I'll never turn my back on it. But there are
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: times where I watch it and I'm like, this movie sucks.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I don't like the way it's shot. Everything looks like
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: a set. What happened to the first movie? Why is
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: everything so bright?
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Why? Like, why are their statues everywhere? Like? It's real?
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: And it points the direction, whether people want to realize
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: it or not, it's already pointing the direction toward Schumacher
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: and Batman Returns, it's already pointing clearly in that direction.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: And Burton, I think, with Returns, proves that the nineteen
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: eighty nine Batman should have been a one time thing
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: for him and he should have gone off and been
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: a producer and not touched another Batman. And I think
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: it's wild because Returns is Burton's making a penguin movie.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: And then there's a pretty interesting Batman Catwoman storyline going
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: on to the side of it and the real killer
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: of it for me, And I think a director with
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: somebody else sitting next to him, maybe whispering in his ear,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: and be like, I don't know, this is the best idea.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Max Shrek is not in that movie. Max Shrek is.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: It's character blot happens so massively in Batman in Turns.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I remember that's always been going all the way back.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: The biggest complaint that so many of my friends had
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: about it was there are too many characters? Why are
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: there so many villains? Like the first one is one villain,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: one bad guy, and instead you have three villains and
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: a good guy in Returns, And it's like, why are
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: you cramming so much into this movie?
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: It'd be our first case of antagonist confusion instead of protagonist.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Maybe so well, to be I feel like Shrek shouldn't
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: have been in this movie, honestly. It's just like, even
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: though I like him, I think he's entertaining. I mean,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: walking is awesome. Walking is walking. Uh, but I feel
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: like this should have been a Batman Catwoman film, and
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: with Penguin as the antagonist. Like you have Penguin as
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: the antagonist and Catwoman as the anti hero, and then
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Batman as the hero.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: And it's just.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: A little better because that bollance better, you know, basically yeah, yeah, the.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Penguins in the background. He's the force of nature whirling
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: around Gotham, and we're focused on the interpersonal you know,
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: bat and cat story in the forefront, but that's not
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: what we got. That is not the forefront, that is
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: the background.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think that there are so many things
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: where you know, to your point dress and I think
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: you could have taken Penguin and Shrek and made them
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: one character, and you could have had Penguin b revealed
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: like he's the Penguin is the logo of his store,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: and you find out he's been behind the scenes pipulating
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: all of this stuff and he's the real villain. And
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: that's the big reveal at the end, because Batman's been
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: distracted by Catwoman and Boom. And then you have your
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: big fight at the end or.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: The reclusive ceo no one sees for decades and then
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: you realize, oh, it's been him the whole time or something.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you could, yes, And Batman gets a tour
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: of his factory. No, I, I don't know, like it's
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: fascinating because there is so much that I genuinely like.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: And everybody shows up two returns excited except for Keaton.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Michelle Pfeiffer is excited to be there. Danny DeVito is
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: just absolutely excited to be there. Christopher Walken isn't sure
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: how he got invited, but he's having a great time
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: like he always does, and Keaton really seems Keaton is
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: not helped by his director. In returns Keaton is bringing
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: what he can and the director it feels like the
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: director is behind the camera, half interested in what he's offering,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, he's right there, he's doing his thing.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: He's so good. Why are you not paying more attention?
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: So that's my take on it.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: So I want to know when it comes to eighty nine,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: what do you think about, Like if, like Darren, when
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: someone says, hey, Batman nineteen eighty nine, what's the first
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: thing that pops into your brain.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: It's the babblebel It's just it's so great answer. It's
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: so iconic. It it's just everything about it. Though it
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: shot amazingly, like it's black, and it's weird, like if
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: you super dissect it, it's kind of weird. It's got
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: like these fins on the back. And why does it
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: have a jet engine?
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: You know? I mean, we know why.
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: But it's just we're seeing just that maturity of everything
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: from the way we get into the bat Cave to
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: like I'm just flashing back to sixty six now and
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: like had the bat Cave, they had the Batmo, they
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: had all these elements, but boy was it different. But yeah,
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: just it was so now I'm trying to remember. Was
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: that commercial Batman or Batman Returns where he's like going
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: to go pick up diet coke Batman?
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: There was a that was a commercial for the Dike.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: I remember that one, Yeah, where it's all it's all
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: stock footage, you know from the movie as he's driving
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: down the country lane on his way to pick up
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: some tech which I.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Still no Alfred, No, Alfred was on the phone. Batman
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: was driving, you were seeing him in or cut and
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Alfred was on the phone saying he would be back momentarily.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: He was out and then at the end of it
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: he's drinking a diet coke. That that was the ad
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: and it was put in front of the video on
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: the on the VHS videotape that released earlier than any
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: other VHS videotape had ever been released. And I just
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: outdrove the local video store guy out of his mind
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: because the day it was supposed to be released, I
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: was like calling every hours.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: Like is it in yet? Is it in yet? I
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: pre ordered it? Is it in yet? Miss bills? Please
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: stop calling? Yeah?
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Right, But you know, Returns I think is over hated.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I really do. I mean Tristan. It breaks my heart
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: to hear that you've watched it so infrequently, because I
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: think there is good stuff in there. This is one
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: of those times where I rewatched it and I enjoyed
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: it much more than I did the previous Like, so,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I get the EBB and flow, but there's enough interesting
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: stuff that I can't hate it. I can't dislike it.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Okay, Well, well, props for returns. My gosh, the model
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: work on returns is amazing, Like.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Darren, I'm so glad that you brought that up, and
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I don't I want you to hold onto that thought.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I'm holding So eighty nine head model work. A lot
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: of model work, returns head model work. But here's the
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: thing about eighty nine. When you realize it's model work,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: all the magic goes out the window. But with returns,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I feel like the model work holds up a little
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: bit more. Darren, what do you think?
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: No, you nailed it. I mean the opening pan, just
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: as you're going over you're leaving the mansion and going
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: over the river and off to the you know, torn
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: down part the zoo. Yeah, the zoo. It's just you
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: forget for a moment it's a model until your brain
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: starts to go, where was this shot? And then you're like, oh,
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: obviously it's a model, but it's it's so beautiful done.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: All the animatronic work with the penguins. I will take
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: an animatronic stiff penguin over.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: You know, nowadays they.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: Would all be CG penguins and it would look like garbage.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: It would look terrible. But yeah, this is still in
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: the realm of practical where everything is visceral and real.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: And you know, again, I don't know why Penguin had
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: a small batmobile kiddie ride to ride in. I don't
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: know who built that, who commissioned that, who smuggled that
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: into a van, I don't even care.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: I think that's what John astutely remarks on about, how
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: like there's not a wide gap between Batman Returns and
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Batman Forever. It's really not that wide of a gap
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: that people make it out.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: That's a that's like a frame out of a comic.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: Like and then Penguin got in this like if it
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: was a comic, we wouldn't even blink.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Twice they painted themselves into a box with the first
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: with the nineteen eighty nine Batman because that one was
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: a declaration, this is a Batman you can believe exists
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: in this world Batman Returns. That Batman cannot exist in
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the real world, can't. It's impossible, Like, I can't square
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: that with reality the way I can the nineteen eighty
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: nine Batman, the nineteen eighty nine Batman, that Gotham, that's
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: New York in the eighties, like all the way down
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: to the fact that the mayor was basically.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Ed Koch, Like he looks and talks like Ed Kotch.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, yeah, I recognize all of this
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: and all the rampant crime and everything like that. It's
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: just and then, I mean one of the things that
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: just annoys the living hell out of me about Batman
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Returns and really jumped out of me this time, is
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I mean every time I watch it is they keep
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: reusing the same sets.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Oh and you just so drives me up a wall.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: And Batman Returns is so claustrophobic. Yes, it's it literally
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: boxes you in and you're aware that you're watching it
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: on a set, You're aware that you're watching it at
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: a warehouse. You're just it's like those old old nineteen
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: forties and fifties pictures, like those old musicals that were
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: all in a sound stage, and you do you were
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: on sound stage, it didn't really care. Like you're watching
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Seven Brides for Seven Brothers and you know the background
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: is just like five feet away from the dancers and
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: you're just like whatever, it doesn't matter. But with Batman Returns,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: it does matter, because in eighty nine it felt like
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: you were outside. It felt expansive.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: It's just like the Gotham that you saw in eighty
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: nine felt like a separate place, but yet something that
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: they lived in. Returns Gotham felt like something that was
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: on a sound stage. I feel like Gotham eighty nine
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: is to Batman that The Dark Night in two thousand
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: and eight is to Batman, Like when you look at
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: the realism, the quote unquote realism, because I feel like
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: we I feel like eighty nine doesn't get enough credit
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: for the realism personally.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Well, I think there's also the production design of Anton
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: First in the first film is just like Roger Pratt
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: Lensing like Anton First, if I recall correctly, was also
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the production designer for Full Metal Jacket, and it's like, well, goodness, gracious, right,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: you're coming at it with the big guns there. I
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: don't remember who the production designer for Returns was, but
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: it was it was not the same. Actually, I think
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: First was dead by then. I think he died of cancer.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: But like, and if I got that wrong, I apologize,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: That's just what my memory is telling me. But like,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I know that First did not come back for for Returns,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: and I think you definitely miss him because first sensibilities
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: were very, very very you know, very key to what worked.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: I I mean, the thing is, though, I like, I
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: still come back to the fact that I think that
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Returns is over hated because I think that for all
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: of its flaws, for all of its flaws, I think
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: it has a beautiful operatic ending one that actually I
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: think really just I mean, you know, obviously everything's subjective,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: but the ending of Returns still hits heavy because Burton
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: successfully makes you feel bad for Penguin, a literal monster
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: who was going to blow up the city and kidnap children.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: But you realize that you still feel sad at the
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: end because was Penguin just screwed from the beginning because
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: he didn't have Alfred, he didn't have a loving environment.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Now Burton sort of undercuts himself in the beginning by showing,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: you know, the baby penguin eating the house cat, so
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: you're kind of like, well, that's not really an environment thing.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: That's more of a born monster thing. So you want
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: it both ways. But if you can separate out that
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: opener with Paul Rubens in his first role post controversy,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I think that the music's really beautiful. I
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: think what happens with Selena Kyle, like Michelle Pfeiffer, is
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: so she's so invested in the role. She's so good
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: as Selena Kyle, like you feel so bad for her.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: And the frustrating thing about it is that there is
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: an element there making a really strong statement about how
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: far can you push a good woman in this awful
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: system before she snaps, before she breaks, you know, like
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: she's treated like an idiot child, you know, before Shrek
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: even kills you know, attempts to kill her, and it's
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: like it's just.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: Her crash out is one of the best sequences where
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: she's just ye done and just gfeeding her own wall,
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: breaking the and the music like you're just like, oh, yes, amazing, Yeah,
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: it's just such a great sequence. Let's actually talk about
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: let's talk about the music as a segue. But I
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: also before we do, I just want to say that
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: I love the superhero trope about how whenever somebody becomes
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: a villain or somebody becomes a superhero, they automatically, automatically
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: become the best seamstress in the world. They just by themselves,
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: by themselves, they can make their own spidy suit, they
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: can make their own cowwoman suit.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: Also part of the game.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Martial art, there's a gene that when you become a
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: super villain or a superhero, the martial arts gene activates
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: and you become an excellent fighter.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: And afrobet Yes, I mean, it's it's just science. So music, Elfman.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: M So.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Last week we talked about the impact of Batman's sixty
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: six and how the camp, the colors, the style, all
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: of it reverberated out through history and we're still feeling
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: it today. I feel like Elfman's music does that even
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: more so than anything else in the movie. Because if
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: you think about Batman, the animated series, that intro, one
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: of the greatest TV intros of all time, uses that music,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: and all the music that was made is used, is
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: made in the same style as an Elfman. It it's
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: like a three season homage to Elfman. You even hear
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: it in Justice League, directed by Joss Wheden, and you
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: know you hear it in a multitude of video games
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that were made afterwards. It's just like that is the
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: definitive Batman theme, even more so than I think Batman's
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: sixty six and definitely more than anything that came after
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: eighty nine? Am I overstating it? What do you guys
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: think about Elfman's music here?
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Elfman's music is to borrow from the legendary Joey He
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: correctly highlighted. This score is Edward scissor Hands and nineteen
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: eighty nine Batman score had a baby, and it was
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: this score. And I say it by means of compliment
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: because I loved the music in Edward Scissorhands.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: I thought it was beautiful. And I think that.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: This operatic music is very fitting to what's going on
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: on screen and to your point, Trists, and I think
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: it elevates it. It makes me want to forgive any
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: shortcomings because the cues in this are great. The music
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: that opens with Oswald Cobblepot's origin story is fantastic. I
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: mean still I remember sitting down in the movie theater
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: and getting chills when that first note hit, where I
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, we're back, baby, and you know,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: that organ comes up and then like the big Batman returns,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: gets revealed as it's going, you know, as the carriage
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: is going through the sewer. And yeah, I mean I
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: think it would be safe to say that Elfman's score
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: does a lot of heavy lifting in this movie.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: It's one of those things that sticks with you absolutely.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: And I have a big soft spot for Elfman. I
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: know that he gets a lot of hate in recent years. Well,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: I mean besides the personal stuff that we're not going
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: to talk about, but the like his work has kind
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: of been derided a lot, and people often forget the basis,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: the foundation of what he worked on, Like you know,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: like what would Pee Wee be without Elfman? What would
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: a Beetlejuice be without Elfman? I mean, even though A
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Planet of the Apes was not a good movie, the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: burden one, the music itself was spotted.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Out before Christmas.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Oh good lord, that's gonna be his opus is nightmare
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: before Christmas. And it's just like this guy has an
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: indelible mark when it comes to composing, and I feel
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: like he gets often overlooked because you have people like Zimmer.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: Or Howard or Well.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I think that Elfman is a great composer, but he's
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: the time for a composer like Elfman is passing. And
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I don't mean that as an insult to the scores
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: that he's made. I just think that everybody's sensibilities have
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: moved on. Like I think movie scores as a whole,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: they have eras to them, and very rarely do you
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: have somebody like inevitably his name comes up, like John
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Williams can go from Jurassic Park to Shindler's List in
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: the same year. That's lightning in a bottle, folks. That's
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: not everybody. And Elfman, his music is great for what
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: it is and the time it belongs to, and that's
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: not a bad thing. And I you know, here's the
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: ultimate question. You're going and you have the completely uncut
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: version of the Batman eighty nine and Batman returns score,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: which one is going on? You can only play one
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: on which one you turn it on?
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: Eighty nine?
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: Hands down, Darren, Yeah, I'd say eighty nine. It's I
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: mean really, I'd more play the game. Let's mix them
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: up into a playlist and try to guess which ones
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: which as you're listening, because.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: That's no problem.
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: Not that not that they're not distinct, but you know
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: they they compliment each other really well.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: I think that I'll always go for eighty nine because
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: there are certain cues on it that still make me
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: excited and happy. Charge of the Batmobile still will get
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: me going.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's yeah, that coke.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: But is that is that the one I'm terrible with names,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: But is that the one where he's taking Vicky Vail
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: to the.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: No charge the Batmobile is when he goes in and
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: he blows up Actis chemicals.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's the great one.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: But also also I will give you that, you know,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: the cue from when he's taking Vicky Vale to the
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: bat game is amazing. I think what's even more interesting
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: is I think that the First Batman I'll come back
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: because this is the inevitable part of the conversation about
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Christmas movie. But the First Batman comes out in the summer.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: But I love watching that movie in the fall. That's
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: a fall movie. To me, that movie belongs in the fall.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Things a little bit darker, it's a little bit chillier.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: It's all of those sorts of things. I will always
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: love watching that movie. In the Fall Batman Returns is
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: not a Christmas movie, And I think even though it's
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: set at Christmas, it's not tied to a specific time
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: to watch. For me, am I alone in that, like
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I have a specific stronger reaction to eighty nine Batman
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: in the Fall Batman Returns, I can watch it any time,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: And even though it's set at Christmas, I'm like, yeah, sure, whatever.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I think it's largely because the set looks like a
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: set and it's not satisfying. And actually the fake snow
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: drives me insane when you see them driving in it,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: because I'm like, it's soap. But like, it is one
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: of those things where I mean, do you guys have
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: a favorite era? Like is it a Christmas movie for you?
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Is Batman Returns a Christmas movie? Do you put it
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: on right after the holiday?
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: Darren? Is it the holiday Batman Returns? Absolutely not.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: No, I mean we've talked about this, but yeah, it's
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: like a level two Christmas movie where it's set at Christmas,
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: but it is not an impact on the story whatever,
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: And that's that's fine.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: You know that's interesting. I honestly can say I do not.
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: Watch Batman movies at certain times of years for certain reasons.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: It just is not on my It's more like, oh,
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: you know, I want to watch that Batmobile again and
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: put that in. Well.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I watched the eighty nine Batman
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: at the drop of a hat, but I respond best
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: to it in the fall.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: I just think it works works the best there.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: What about you, Tristan, I don't really have the time
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: of the year that I feel like I need to
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: watch eighty nine. I'm kind of like you, where I
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: could watch it anytime Batman returns. While I don't consider
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: it a Christmas movie. This is going to sound really hypocritical,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: but while I don't consider it a Christmas movie, the
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: thing that I remember most from it is the Christmas aspect.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: So I just if Schindler.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Were here front of the network and former host you
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: can find his stuff on the Nerd party dot com,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: he would hardcore defend that this is a Christmas movie.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: He'd be wrong, but he would hardcore defend it absolutely.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: I do want to take a minute, though, because we
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: all everybody on the Planet loves to point out that
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: William Hootkins, Red six Porkins from Star Wars plays Eckhart.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: But you, gentlemen, of course know the other Star Wars
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: pilot who appears in the nineteen eighty nine Batman, Right,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: of course you do.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: I hate that.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: I've never made that connection really.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, it's I mean, he's a very recognizable actor.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Houtkins.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: I remember, I remember when I when I was when
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: I figured that out in on like my fourth viewing
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: when I was fifteen. I'm sitting there and I'm like,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: William Hookins, I know that name. I know that name
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: like all the way back then. I was like, I
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: know that's there's something important. But do you know who
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: the who the other Star Wars pilot is?
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: Tristan I'm going to blow your mind right now. Did
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: you know that Harvey Dent is Lando Calrisian?
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, if you're not going to take this seriously, that's
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: you know, if you're just if you're just gonna make
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: stuff up, Okay, then I'm just gonna leave.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: We all know Harvey Dent is Tommy Lee Jones. I
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: think that what truly blows my mind because I forget
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: it all the time. Is that Garrick Kgan BIG's dark
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Lighter is the dad in the beginning who is telling
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: his kid put that thing away.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: I had no idea.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: You're blowing my mind, Frank. That that is amazing.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is uh, that is Garrick Kagan.
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: I know where we are like that like that?
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, right, So wing of Batman Burton Era.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: It's funny because you know, like with even though we're
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: a director focused podcast, the first episode we consider it
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: the west era. But then when we when we get
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: into this, it's like, no, we're not calling it the
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Keaton era, even though we could. I feel like we could.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: We're calling it the Burton Era. So I want to
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: hear your guys' ratings for eighty nine and then eighty
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: two per custom Darren, I'm starting with you. Did I
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: say eighty two? I meant ninety two?
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why I frowned at you for your time discrepancy.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: All right, Yes, gosh, these ones. Eighty nine always gets
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: a little bumped from me, just because I mean, as
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: it says in its Wikipedia article, you know, it spawned
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: three sequels like it, We're still eighty nine is not
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: really that deep in the era of things will get sequels,
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: things will continue on. You know, remember Empire strack Back
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: was kind of the outlier around, you know, nineteen eighty
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: like this, the sequel was the get the Band back together,
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: and it's kind of the same as the first movie,
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: and we're slowly moving away from that. So you know,
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: we get returns, we get you know, which I really
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: agree with all of you. That is kind of just
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: a Penguin movie with Batman tapped on. But but all
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: that to say, eighty nine just for what it establishes
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: for the Joker performance, the visual language, you know, eighty
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: nine flu so that Batman later could own the night.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: So I'm giving eighty nine to five for return. I know, shocker,
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: we love Batman and we're giving for return. Yeah, it's
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: it's a harder place because it does have its flaws.
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: I don't feel I see them as much. I'm not
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: as much of the Batman aficionado as you guys are,
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: so I'm just kind of enjoying it.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I can see the sets a bit.
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: It reminds me of like early when you watch it
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: again and you're like it's not quite holding up like
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: your golden memory of was when you first watched it.
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: So I'm going to give Returns a three overall. I
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: think it was it's and you know, all of these
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: have great pieces. I love the bat Missile. I left,
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: I shot the bat Missile. I want a side comic
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: about some Gotham PD officer who like finds the discarded
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: pieces of the bat Missile, because that's the batmobile that
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: shed part like eighty percent of it in that alley.
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: It's still there unless somebody went and picked it up.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: So yes, all that to say five and a three
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: from me.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll point out that Nolan, you know, might have
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: been inspired for the Batpod by what happens in Batman Returns.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying. I'm just saying they wreck the batmobile,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: and he has tas.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: Like poetry at rhymes. Yeah, exactly right.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: I thought that was deliberate, Wasn't that? Isn't that kind
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: of the deal, is it.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: I've never seen anything where he said that it was deliberate,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: so I have no idea maybe it was, but I
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: can say that the eighty nine Batman there were a
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: number of years where I would I would give it
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: like a four and a half because it was like, oh,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: I don't want to come across as you know, you're
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: always like looking for the flaws because you don't want
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: people to come out to.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Be like, oh you're a fanboy. You just love Batman
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: too much, you know what? Yeah, I do. But eighty
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: nine is Batman.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can ever even view it
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: honestly because of what an impact had on me. But
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: it's a five. It's everything coming together, right. I still
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: remember the first time I saw it almost being so overwhelmed.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I didn't know what to think. And then at the
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: end when the you know, the music is swelling and
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: it goes up and it reveals him standing there with
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: the bat signal in the background, and you just wanted
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: to get like, I'm getting goosebumps thinking about the shot
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: and the music cue right now.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: You wanted to stand up and be like, yeah, I
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: want to go pay three oars and see this again.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: And it's so it's a five. Batman returns.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: I used to love then, I used to dislike then
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I thought it was mediocre. On this latest viewing, I
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: give it a three and a half. Usually I'd say
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: you could probably average me out to a three. But
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: the uh transfer on this latest edition is better than
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: the transfer for the eighty nine Batman puzzling at.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: Best by a country mile.
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: It's really weird.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I think whoever did the transfer on the four K
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: for the nineteen eighty nine Batman should be flogged and
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: fired because it's got everybody's skin has that weird like
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: soft glowy wax, probably like like they look like they
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: smelt it's waxing.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: It's awful, extreme oranges, extreme blues. But returns looks good.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: Returns was beautiful.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: So but yeah, I'll give it a three and a half,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: although man, it will always still there's some timeline where
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: we got Billy the Williams as Harvey Dent turning into
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: two Face, and boy, I would have loved to see
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: that sequel.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Man honorable mention to the things that exist in the
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Keaton universe, because there is a really nice comic book
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: that exists where we see Billy Dee at least an
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: illustrated form as two Face. Yes, and also two really
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: awesome novels written by Joshua Jackson Miller. Did I get
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: that right? John Jackson Miller, Thank you John jack and
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Joshua Jackson as somebody else, John Jackson Miller.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: Batman Resurrection.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: It's Batman Resurrection and Batman Revolution, both really excellent works.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Really excellent work. Like this guy nails Keaton's voice. It
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: really feels like you are thrown into the Burton Verse.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: You're thrown into Keaton as Batman. It feels like a
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: true extension, like it feels like novels that would have
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: come out during between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety two.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: And actually, as an honorable mention, I will say it
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: might be why I'm reacting to Returns better because they
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: take place between eighty nine and ninety two, and you
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: get more Max Shrek development, and you get more of
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: the the Keaton Batman universe development. And I think, honestly,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: the written word may be improving my esteem for Batman
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: Returns as a result.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: And it enhances the Wayne Shrek relationship. Yes, it does.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Like when you see Wayne going to that boardroom and
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: throwing that report to Shrek, it feels like there's more
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: history behind it. Because of Miller. Yep, So, I cannot
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: recommend his books enough. Honestly, they're they're quite good. And
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: in Miller, if you're listening to this or whomever like Penguin,
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Random House. I don't know who publishes it. If you
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: guys are listening, please please let him continue post returns. Please, yes,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: please let him please go post returns. Let us start
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: erasing the memory of what came after. Well, I'm not
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: going to go that far, but what I will say
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: is that I'm with you, guys where eighty nine five stars.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Nothing more needs to be said. It's great, it's awesome,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: it's fun, it's nostalgic, it's warm, it's it's macaroni and
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: cheese for the soul is what it is. I love
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: it so dearly, and it has strong tied my father.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: I will show it to my kids as soon as
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: a're old enough, and it's just it's something that you
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: pass down returns. I don't like it. I'm going to
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: two and a half stars. It's mediocre. It has some
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: good parts, it has some bad parts, but it averages
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: out straight down the middle. And that's all I'm going
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: to say about that. But I do love how devoted
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Michelle Fiver was for putting a live bird in her
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: mouth for real and doing it in one take. All right, Darren,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: what are we doing next week? I have an idea,
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: but I want you to confirm it. Yes, it is
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: the Wing of Batman. As you mentioned, nineteen eighty nine
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: established amazing themes that would go on in animated form.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: We have an amazing time with Eric Redimiski and Bruce
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: tim we're covering Batman Mask of the Phantasm from nineteen
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: ninety three.
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: Next on, House Likes
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party