Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Dr. Carrie Goucher

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Cutting Through with Dr. Carrie Goucher · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

• 0:14
  Welcome to Cutting Through with Me, Natasha Ploughman.
• 0:17
  Today I'm joined by doctor Carrie Goucher.
• 0:20
  Carrie and I crossed paths probably about 10, just over 10
• 0:22
  years ago on Twitter when she was sharing some really
• 0:25
  interesting work she was doing with scale ups and start UPS.
• 0:28
  In the intervening period, she's done so much work for a
• 0:31
  marketing to her PhD and we'll hear more about that.
• 0:34
  I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
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  So welcome, Carrie, and give us a little bit of about who you
• 0:40
  are or like what makes you tick. Well, warm hello.
• 0:44
  I think the thing that unifies all the different threads of
• 0:47
  work I've done over the years is around how to move organisations
• 0:53
  into the 21st century, out of the industrial era, into faster,
• 0:58
  more agile, more purposeful ways of working.
• 1:02
  And central to that is adult to adult, very human communication.
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  That's where I started 20 years ago.
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  My business was 20 years old last week.
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  And in the 2000s, I did loads of work with organisations who
• 1:16
  would literally come to me and say, Carrie, we want you to
• 1:19
  Google if I company. Well, people don't say that so
• 1:22
  much anymore, but that's what they wanted to do then.
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  So I did tonnes of work on how to bring your strategy to life
• 1:31
  for employees, how to communicate in more human ways
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  with your customers and clients, how to introduce new ways of
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  thinking working. So that was really the 2000s in
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  the 20 tens that translated into doing a lot of work, investing
• 1:50
  in startups and trying to accelerate purpose LED business.
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  And that's how we met all the same principles and of course a
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  very different canvas on which to paint with those those
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  faster, more agile ways of working and also to learn from
• 2:07
  what startups are doing to bring that back across.
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  And a lot of the work I did was bringing the startup world
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  together with the corporate world.
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  And then that tipped me into a whole world of how we meet and
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  collaborate. So I remember somebody saying to
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  me, if you want to work on our culture and how we communicate
• 2:26
  our strategy, you have to look at our meetings.
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  They are diabolical. And that was kind of a theme for
• 2:31
  the next 10 years. And that's really where I find
• 2:35
  myself today is working on how we meet and collaborate.
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  But I've got some interesting stories to share from throughout
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  that journey. Brilliant.
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  And we will absolutely talk about meetings because I know
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  having worked in big companies and smaller companies, that is a
• 2:48
  fundamental pain point for everyone.
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  But we are about cutting through and the role communications can
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  play in being a lever to solve business problems.
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  So it would be great to get stuck into kind of some of those
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  examples that you've got around where culture, communications
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  and the way people and organisations work together has
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  been solved. See, there are some really
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  fascinating highlights from like your big projects.
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  I worked on that. I think at the time we brought
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  something quite fresh and different to and we were of
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  course, that completely depends on working with somebody that I
• 3:25
  always call a magic person. So that's somebody who gets new
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  ways of thinking and working and is open to very, very fresh
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  ideas of how to solve traditional problems.
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  But they are sufficiently credible that they've got the
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  ear of the senior leadership team or the exec or the board or
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  whatever. And they're where that group of
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  people will say, look, Beryl, Sandra, Bob Ahmed, go please,
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  will you go and you go away and solve this.
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  We trust you. And then they come and work with
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  me. So I wonder if how many people
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  on this, listening to this, are themselves magic people, and
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  whether they've ever thought of themselves like that.
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  But if they haven't, I encourage you to cultivate your role as a
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  magic person. Yes, well, maybe describe a
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  little the attributes because I think that's a really nice thing
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  to kind of people to self reflect and also say well, that
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  person's a magic person. That's what I need to work with
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  and all drive change because it is fun.
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  If you're not one, you need one. You need one, yeah.
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  And recognise it in other people if you're not going to be that
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  person. Yeah.
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  So I think they are, they are the perfect hybrid.
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  So they understand and embody enough of the old school world
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  that they can bridge across successfully for the people who
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  hold the money in the pound. So the thing I found throughout
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  my career is this is particularly true for meetings
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  actually, that the people who have the money to solve the
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  problem don't experience it in the same way.
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  For them, it's not a problem. So I find execs are interested
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  in my work on meetings, very interested, but often they
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  struggle to find the place that it fits and they struggle for
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  that, to find the kind of burning platform to unlock the
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  money and the resource and the effort, the sheer effort it
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  takes. But it's all the people who work
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  for them who are on my LinkedIn posts all day everyday telling
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  me about their negative meeting experiences.
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  And when I do a discovery survey, for example, or
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  discovery interviews, I find it it flooded with people who want
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  to talk about this. So there's a big mismatch there.
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  And a magic person bridges between the two.
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  And often they are, they're really curious, they're going to
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  interesting conferences, they're reading interesting things,
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  they're trying things themselves, but they're not the
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  really wild outliers or Mavericks who's I have worked
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  with some people who set up an office that had loads of glitter
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  in it and had one of those like like silver streamer entrances
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  and so on. It was set up in a really
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  traditional organisation, loads of stickers and sweets and that
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  kind of thing. And it was super cool, but it
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  was too far from the organisation.
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  So it it fulfilled its role, but it needed a magic person to to
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  legitimise it and I don't think they quite had that.
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  Probably around the time that we met in the kind of 20 tens,
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  there was a real focus around having these in big companies,
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  having these startup type of forms.
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  So Unilever had one, HSBC kind of did it slightly later around
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  kind of setting up a separate team off site.
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  Yeah, and work within a startup way.
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  And it was almost like the an assumption that this agile way
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  of working or this would suddenly only change legacy
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  businesses by infiltrating them from the outside and from the
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  inside out. And but like you say, those
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  links weren't always made around really understanding what the
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  legacy business didn't delivered and then what disruption they
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  actually really wanted. So have you seen any examples of
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  some big companies who have been able to kind of blend those two
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  areas together? Yeah, I think there are
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  different models for doing it. So I think the model you
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  described where it's really kind of hived off that is that's
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  really designed to isolate a group of people from the
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  unhelpful influences in the main organisation and to allow and
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  often that the purpose of that is less about changing the
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  culture of the original organisation, but developing a
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  product that they need. And, and that was the prevailing
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  logic. And also the feeling was people
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  were very precious about agile. So, you know, there were very
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  derogatory terms like wagile. That was a, that was a slur.
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  Obviously the idea that corporates try to kind of smush
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  together waterfall, IE very traditional kind of gate based
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  innovation, kind of smush it together with having some stand
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  ups and like, oh, here we go, we're doing wagile.
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  And I think I do think thinking about that has changed
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  massively. So, you know, things have
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  matured that kind of thinking, you know, the agile way of
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  working. Firstly, some holes have been
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  poked in the pure it's purest format.
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  And secondly, people are much more aware of what it is and why
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  you would use that or lean startups.
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  It's people are more ready to to assimilate it, but I think,
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  yeah, go ahead. I think the the fundamental with
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  all of this is human behaviour and human actions and how humans
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  work together. I suppose because I do feel as
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  if we've lost we've, we've moved away from a lot of the
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  terminology around how people work and we're actually getting
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  into real structures. And, and I like the way you talk
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  around, you know, industrial era businesses and the culture
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  around industrial area to kind of moving towards more
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  collaboration and knowledge era. Have you seen any great examples
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  of how people have moved through those in the last kind of
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  probably 1010 years? From using all the words and
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  language but not actually doing the kind of different ways of
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  working to now just removing the language and working
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  differently. I I don't think there are many
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  organisations who had an outlier innovation agile like factory
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  who successfully integrated that.
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  I think what I do see are, are organisations where a broad
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  range of concepts from design thinking, agile, systems
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  thinking, flattening of hierarchies, all those concepts
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  have started to become a bit more mainstream and companies
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  are really rethinking their systems processes and so on with
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  very, very varying degrees of success and maturity.
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  But I think it's a ladder that most organisations are now on,
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  whether they're on a kind of high up run or a low down run.
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  And I, I think we've lost this idea that agile is the way to
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  run organisations and make stuff.
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  And it's a question of how do you make organisations agile
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  with a capital AI think that that concept has faded.
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  There's a far broader constellation of principles that
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  are becoming becoming more mainstream.
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  So when I interviewed recently, her her focus has been around
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  digital transformation internally and particularly
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  through the lens of kind of the digital tools that people use
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  internally and IE intranets and all of this.
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  And you know, they have often been a catalyst to unearth the
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  pain points people have around culture and the pain points.
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  But the one of the frustrations she shared was that so much the
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  focus around transformation is around the digital tools rather
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  than the human elements that need to change.
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  And that seems to be the maturity where for some
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  companies is there absolutely recognising that you can't do 1
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  without the other. And how do they then get the
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  right transformation happening as a business to operate and
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  deal with the the disruption that they're saying I think
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  there's? A very, very high degree of
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  variation in ways of working in organisations on on levels of
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  sophistication. So for example, if I do a talk
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  with a range of organisations and I talk about things like the
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  trend towards async, first there'd be a number of people
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  there who would say, yeah, yeah, we're all over that.
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  There'd be a middle ground of people who know exactly what
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  that is and are considering it. And then there'd be quite a big
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  chunk of people, maybe 40% who'd say what is async.
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  So, and I think the tools and the mindset or the habits are in
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  reciprocity with each other. So if you don't have the tools,
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  if you're just using email async, like async isn't a thing.
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  The concept of having a conversation river that you draw
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  from rather than a conversation list which you work your way
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  through, which is what email is really, isn't it?
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  It's like A to do list of individual communications that
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  you need to do. I think that shift is impossible
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  to make without the technology. And I remember it's funny, I
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  consider myself somebody who's a really early user of technology.
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  And yet when I first, and this is way back when I first had a
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  mobile phone in about 199798 text messaging came in, I think
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  in about 1999, two thousand. And I remember my friends using
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  it and I was like, how would you do that?
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  Why would you type word? Why would you type like 10 words
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  in people? I don't get it.
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  And of course, very, very rapidly that became a thing.
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  But you know, and initially it was really problematic texting
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  people because you had to do it with numbers.
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  How do you make words out of numbers, which is what you have
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  to do with a phone keypad? In a way, I was right.
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  Like why would you use numbers to make words when you can just
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  call somebody and say the thing you need to do?
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  But that gave way to rapid texting back and forward.
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  Of course, texting costs money. It costs, you know, up to 20
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  pence per text. So again, why would you do that?
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  And you certainly wouldn't go back and forward, back and
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  forward. That would be absolutely
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  ridiculous. So there is absolutely a degree
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  to which technology enables shifts in mindset.
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  However, most organisations are on teams.
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  Thank you pandemic, for one thing.
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  And that is that we do have fair pretty much parity of platform
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  and most people are on one platform.
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  It's not like we've got 10 different platforms and
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  everybody's on a different one. And now what we're looking at is
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  norms. So for example, I'm often
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  brought into the Teams chat channels for clients I work
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  with, which is a very confusing experience for me trying to kind
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  of philtre between work, you know, like be in different
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  organisations, conversations. But there are some organisations
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  where they'd say like, don't bother emailing me.
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  I just, I barely check them. I barely get any and I barely
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  check them. If you want me, you'll find me
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  on Teams. There are other people who say
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  Teams. Yeah.
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  Well, I look at it once a week. It's just like a complete
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  tsunami. So if you want me, you've got to
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  use email. So we've got quite a divergent
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  in what is the normal place that people expect to be contacted.
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  And all of this, all of this needs developing, all of this
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  needs maturing. So we have we focus a lot on
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  individual productivity. So how can you get your To Do
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  List done better and having a problem at work.
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  Here's a course for you to go away.
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  It's a very western model, send you a way to deal to fix
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  something in your world to help towards the collective cause.
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  But what we need, we haven't done a good job is is focus on
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  collective productivity. So how do we together work more
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  productivity? And that's what my current work
• 15:08
  is. However, there are some
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  interesting stories from the last sort of 10 or 15 years
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  worth of work that I've done, which I think your listeners
• 15:20
  might find quite interesting, which is allied to all of this
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  around how do you help organisations shift using using
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  comms, which is my tool and your tool from parent child type of
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  dynamic to adult to adult dynamic.
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  My favourite favourite thing I learned from you as well so.
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  Tell me why? Why is it so interesting?
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  Because I think it was the first time it was articulated that
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  that I then understood my frustration with the world of
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  work, my frustration with either not being treated like an adult
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  or my frustration of seeing myself become the child and
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  knowing that's what I'd become. And knowing that's how I was
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  acting. And if I was acting out or doing
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  things and not being able to articulate it well enough and
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  then change the behaviour that I knew I was more comfortable
• 16:14
  with, which was around being an adult and dealing and working
• 16:17
  with adults. So it was, it was it was very
• 16:21
  much a kind of recognition for me of this is what I need to
• 16:25
  change and work and to recognise for me to have a happier time at
• 16:28
  work. And since working with you, and
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  I've really seen that because I've been able to call out
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  either a when I become a child or when other people are acting
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  like a child. And I'm kind of like, no, you're
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  an adult here now. You know, you can either make
• 16:42
  decisions, you can articulate your boundaries.
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  You can absolutely kind of make, you know, work within a team and
• 16:48
  make sure that that team has an honest, open, transparent
• 16:51
  conversation about how we work together.
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  But yeah, I love this. So I'm now gonna shut up and let
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  you kind of explain it to kind of people more broadly.
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  No. No, no.
• 17:01
  Well, I think, I think it, it touches a nerve for so many
• 17:03
  people, doesn't it? And it speaks to people in a way
• 17:06
  that very little else. It speaks to people universally,
• 17:09
  I have found in a way that very little else does.
• 17:11
  So very Quick guide to transactional analysis, which is
• 17:13
  where this comes from. So you may well know it already
• 17:17
  as Eric Burns work You're OK, I'm OK, often applied to 1 to
• 17:24
  one relationships, partners in adult children, that kind of
• 17:28
  thing. Or, you know, things we go to,
• 17:32
  we have therapeutic interventions to to work on our
• 17:35
  one to one dynamic with people. And the idea is that there are
• 17:39
  different modes in which we can interact.
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  So we can interact, we can send messages to people in a parent
• 17:46
  mode, which is often about telling people what to do or
• 17:52
  withholding information or trying to kind of control
• 17:55
  something. And we can respond or act as a
• 17:59
  child as well, which is either complying or rebelling.
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  And the, of course, the two are in reciprocity.
• 18:06
  So the more I treat you like a child, the more you'll behave
• 18:11
  like 1 and the more I feel like, well, if you're going to act
• 18:13
  like a child, well then I'm going to need to spell this out
• 18:15
  for you and etcetera, etcetera. And the flip of this is we we
• 18:21
  are also capable of operating in sending and receiving messages
• 18:26
  in adult mode. So adult mode is treating other
• 18:30
  people as a whole. We don't need fixing, sharing
• 18:33
  more information with people and inviting them to a not trying to
• 18:39
  control other people, but trying to kind of invite them to a
• 18:41
  relationship of parity. And usually it's applied to one
• 18:46
  on one relationships, but it applies very well to
• 18:48
  organisations as well. And it comes from the industrial
• 18:51
  era where the best way to make a lot of, you know, mechanical
• 18:54
  widgets very fast was to tell people what to make sure they
• 18:58
  followed a process. Now the world is different.
• 19:01
  Now we create value through bytes, pixels, information,
• 19:06
  knowledge and we and the world we operate in is more complex.
• 19:12
  So it's not just a case of, you know, following the steps in
• 19:16
  your job manual and if you do them correctly then you'll get
• 19:20
  your bonus at the end of the year.
• 19:21
  We're handling uncertainty all the time.
• 19:23
  So we need adult to adult mode. And what organisations find is
• 19:29
  it's very difficult to cultivate this whilst they're still locked
• 19:32
  in. This like organisation is the
• 19:34
  parent and the employees are the child.
• 19:37
  Yeah. And it's also hierarchy and kind
• 19:39
  of, and it's not about kind of getting rid of hierarchy
• 19:42
  necessarily, because that gives you guardrails and boundaries
• 19:45
  around what people do, but it's about a way of interacting with
• 19:48
  each other, I suppose. But that would.
• 19:49
  Change, Absolutely. Yeah.
• 19:51
  So there's a really nice example.
• 19:53
  I worked with Mondelez, which, if for anybody who hasn't heard
• 19:57
  of it, is the kind of smacking bit that spun out of Craft UK
• 20:01
  and Cabbie Tree Ball Bassett. And took all the brands like
• 20:05
  Philadelphia and Dairy Milk and so on with it.
• 20:11
  And so while there were big kind of changes, that's a very, very
• 20:15
  simple summary of a very big change in how that organisation
• 20:19
  was structured and managed. And that process took about two
• 20:23
  years. And during that process, what
• 20:26
  the leaders basically said to the people is don't, don't do
• 20:31
  anything, don't change anything. Like Grown Ups are working on
• 20:34
  the big stuff. We'll come back and tell you
• 20:36
  when we're ready. And of course, when they were
• 20:37
  ready and they wanted to then like really spin up these new
• 20:41
  company structures. People had been in in like child
• 20:45
  mode for too long. So my job was to come and help
• 20:48
  them reactivate into adult mode. And so, and the, and the, the
• 20:54
  kind of words around it at the time were like, this is a $35
• 20:57
  billion startup. That's what we wanted to, to
• 21:00
  feel like just really, it was a really nice way of putting it.
• 21:03
  And we use language like the power of big and small and so
• 21:07
  on. And if we think about the, the
• 21:10
  comms element of this, so really my job was a comms job.
• 21:16
  The way in which you communicate that you want people to behave
• 21:19
  in adult mode can inadvertently completely subvert the message
• 21:24
  you're trying to create. So the so really people don't
• 21:28
  hear those words. OK, everybody, you know, great,
• 21:31
  let's all add operate as adults now.
• 21:34
  This is how you do this. I need you to do it by Friday.
• 21:37
  You know, all of that again, is coming from really from a kind
• 21:40
  of parent vibe. So I had to find a way with my
• 21:44
  team at the time to offer people to use an adult to adult boat to
• 21:50
  do that. And we did this in a number of
• 21:54
  different ways. But one of the things we did was
• 21:56
  we took a roadshow around the organisation.
• 22:00
  We invited people to come and to start to build and structure and
• 22:05
  scaffold the future. We used a technique called open
• 22:10
  space technology, which is another lovely rabbit hole that
• 22:13
  listeners can go down but essentially allow it.
• 22:16
  It's the basis for Uncon conference.
• 22:18
  It allows people to structure, to plan sessions that they want
• 22:22
  to to go to and attend. And we use kind of the flavour
• 22:25
  of open space technology rather than the pure format.
• 22:29
  There is a pure format that's well worth looking up.
• 22:32
  And so we asked people to set up a session within that morning
• 22:38
  about an issue they thought was really important that they were
• 22:40
  willing to host a conversation on.
• 22:42
  And then if they didn't want to host a conversation, they would
• 22:45
  go round to all the other conversations.
• 22:46
  So it was a fascinating way to allow people to use the law of
• 22:51
  two feet. So use your two feet to take you
• 22:54
  to the place where you can learn and contribute the most and
• 22:55
  leave when you've finished. So very informal settings.
• 22:58
  And we gave people a bit of structure about how to like
• 23:02
  discuss things and how to capture the value of that.
• 23:05
  And then we put them all, all those at the end of the
• 23:07
  sessions, we put all those nice little single page outputs up on
• 23:12
  our version of the Top Gear cool wall, which went from bottom to
• 23:19
  top. Bottom was how close is it to
• 23:23
  me? Like is it something I can
• 23:24
  impact? And top it's somebody you know,
• 23:26
  this is a job for the CEO left to right.
• 23:29
  Left was how easy is this? Is it a small thing?
• 23:31
  And very easy, right, very, very difficult.
• 23:34
  And if possible, and it was a really nice way to create this
• 23:36
  lovely visual. And then we all stood around the
• 23:38
  wall, maybe like 40 of us, and we had one of the most beautiful
• 23:41
  moments I think I've ever, ever had in any workshop or session
• 23:46
  I've ever run. We saw this repeated all around
• 23:48
  the country. So we saw people say, well, all
• 23:51
  the really important stuff that matters to us is really
• 23:53
  difficult and only so many people can deal with it.
• 23:56
  And what, what do you think my temptation was as a facilitator?
• 23:59
  What would you have wanted to have done?
• 24:02
  Well, I think what I would have liked to want to have done is
• 24:04
  kind of take control and say, you know, you need to be
• 24:06
  responsible and you are the, you know, the guidance of your
• 24:10
  destiny as well. So it's yeah into this as well.
• 24:13
  Yeah, and that's what I wanted to do.
• 24:14
  And what do you think I did? I don't know.
• 24:16
  I'm not going to get caught in that little rabbit traffic.
• 24:20
  I really wanted to do that. I wanted to say, oh, well, great
• 24:24
  teachable moment here, you know, you know, what's the, what's the
• 24:28
  small thing that you could do, etcetera, etcetera.
• 24:29
  But I didn't because that was the parent voice coming out and
• 24:33
  I wanted to give people an experience of being an adult.
• 24:36
  So I said nothing. I just went because I wanted the
• 24:39
  session to work and I wanted people to think my session was
• 24:42
  useful and that they got useful things out of it.
• 24:45
  But I took a risk and I went and then they then they started to
• 24:50
  talk to each other. So we're all kind of in a group,
• 24:52
  quite a big group around this wall.
• 24:54
  And. And people said, yeah, but you
• 24:57
  could go and talk to IT about that.
• 24:58
  And I spoke to this person, Brenda, and she was really
• 25:01
  helpful when I talked about this.
• 25:02
  And she says, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.
• 25:04
  And I think if you told her that was really important, she passed
• 25:07
  that up. And then people were like, well,
• 25:10
  yeah, But you know, nothing really happens here until the
• 25:13
  CEO says dot, dot, dot. So there's never any money for
• 25:16
  this. And then someone else said,
• 25:18
  yeah, but what I think I'm going to do is I think, I think
• 25:21
  there's a fix I could do for my team and or I've seen this other
• 25:24
  team do something and they basically kind of coached
• 25:27
  themselves and then they started moving, moving these one pages
• 25:32
  and moving them to different places.
• 25:33
  Like, well, actually that's something that's a bit closer to
• 25:35
  me or that's something that it's easier than I thought it was.
• 25:39
  So it didn't change the, IT didn't change the kind of
• 25:43
  overall picture that the course were some things like, you know,
• 25:47
  they, they were operating 2 IT platforms and that was causing
• 25:51
  them a lot of problems, you know, like 2 supplier platforms
• 25:54
  and somebody needed to integrate those two.
• 25:58
  But it did massively start to shift their perception.
• 26:02
  And it was, it's a form of like group inquiry and it was a form
• 26:05
  of Co coaching with each other. And it all throughout this time,
• 26:08
  I was just standing there going. And then they kind of basically
• 26:12
  like closed the session out themselves and said, well, I
• 26:15
  suppose The thing is when you feel like something's really
• 26:18
  difficult and it can only be handled by somebody really far
• 26:21
  away, then what you can do is think, or what can I do in my
• 26:24
  team? Or is there a simpler way or who
• 26:26
  could I talk to about it? I was like, yeah, there we go,
• 26:28
  there we go. So it doesn't always work out
• 26:31
  like that. But that was such a powerful
• 26:34
  example of using adults to develop adults.
• 26:37
  Often the art of facilitation and the art of coordinating,
• 26:42
  convening people is to just enable the conversations to
• 26:46
  happen and to connect people to kind of then take and rather
• 26:49
  than having to solve them. And I think that's a really
• 26:52
  powerful way of, of just giving people permission to because,
• 26:56
  and you can see in cultures when they just have never been given
• 27:00
  real permission because it's been on status, it's been on
• 27:03
  hierarchy, it's been on who's got the loudest voice to solve
• 27:07
  problems. Whereas that seems like a really
• 27:09
  powerful example to to shift that behaviour.
• 27:14
  And do you think it's something that's continued and snowboard
• 27:16
  from then? Oh, 100%.
• 27:19
  So they they say Mondelez then came and spoke at our conference
• 27:22
  the following year about their experiences since then.
• 27:26
  And I think of course that is just one stepping stone in a
• 27:30
  number of stepping stones. It also helped that the CEO at
• 27:34
  the time did some really radical acts of freedom, say for example
• 27:38
  he like banned PowerPoint in meetings, which was a really
• 27:43
  nice weather CEO saying you do not need to spend 5 hours on a
• 27:46
  Sunday creating 7070 PowerPoint slides for your Monday meeting.
• 27:51
  You just don't need to do that anymore.
• 27:54
  So what we need is, is every possible strand for, for it to
• 27:58
  be modelled, enabled, for freedoms to be granted, for
• 28:01
  responsibilities to be clarified.
• 28:05
  There have been plenty of scenarios where I've done
• 28:06
  something similar and it felt like it didn't work.
• 28:09
  So for the tape, I'm doing like the air quotes, like it didn't,
• 28:14
  it didn't land or people couldn't get it in the moment.
• 28:19
  And, and there were somewhere I felt like, you know what, that
• 28:22
  just didn't work. I didn't do it right.
• 28:25
  They weren't ready for it. But what I realised is people
• 28:27
  work in bursts and what I then had is it was one programme
• 28:33
  where 10 people were on it and by 10 years later, which was
• 28:37
  last month, every single person on that programme had come back
• 28:40
  to me and said that changed my life.
• 28:42
  Well, that's not that programme felt like a total failure at the
• 28:44
  time that it wasn't. What I really want from the
• 28:47
  talking to you and this podcast is to plant that seed that
• 28:51
  things can be done differently. You can have different
• 28:54
  conversations at work. Communications can not only
• 28:58
  bring the outside in, but also kind of really start promoting
• 29:02
  that adult to adult way of working.
• 29:05
  So I think there's so much from this that people can hopefully
• 29:07
  take away and be able to open up a different world of work.
• 29:11
  I mean, we are being disrupted as an industry as as all
• 29:15
  industries are at the moment from technology, from external
• 29:17
  world. But there is ways you can take
• 29:20
  control of that and kind of communicating in a different way
• 29:23
  is definitely the starting point for that as well.
• 29:27
  Thank you so much Carrie for for talking to me.
• 29:30
  It has been really interesting wide ranging conversation.
• 29:33
  So thank you again for being on Cutting Through.
• 29:37
  Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening to
• 29:42
  Cutting Through with me, Natasha Ploughman and brought to you by
• 29:45
  Spinning Red. Cutting Through spotlights the
• 29:47
  people solving business problems.
• 29:50
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• 30:01
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• 30:03
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• 30:08
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• 30:10
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