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READING ROOM MAY 26 · The Reading Room

0:01
Speaker 1: Ride. Hello from Liverpool Community Radio and we are back
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on live the reading Room for this month's book club.
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And I have Barry Jones here Hello, and Sue Gerard Hello,
0:37
and myself Cosmic Christa. We're here to review the book
0:41
on the Black Hill by Bruce Chatwin. So it's been
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a long time we didn't we haven't been at the
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reading room for a good few months. And we read
0:51
this book in August, I believe. So how many of
0:54
us have reread the book? So yeah to me too.
1:01
So it won a prize, It won the Black the
1:05
Tate Black Memorial, the James Tate Black Memorial Prize, and
1:09
it was published in nineteen eighty two. So I'm going
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to start with you, Barry, what did you think of
1:16
this book?
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Speaker 2: Yes? I was a bit mixed with it. I mean
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the background of the story is basically it intro introduces
1:27
us to a pair of twins at the age of
1:31
eighty and the Black Hills of on the border of
1:36
Wales and England Herefordshire. Pretty much they have a view
1:42
out of England out of one window and Wales out
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of the other, and then the book goes back and
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creates their story from when their father and mother meet
1:53
and get married and then continues right the way through
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their lives until one of them dies at the age
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of eighty. So it covers quite a long time.
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Speaker 3: It covers it.
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Speaker 2: Quite a lot of it in very brief detail. I
2:13
think a lot of the characters aren't actually developed very much,
2:21
and so I found it not exactly lightweight. But I
2:27
found that it didn't It didn't really involve me too
2:32
much in it, you know, I found, and I found
2:34
even with the second reading, that I was a bit
2:37
confused and couldn't really picture a lot of the characters.
2:40
Speaker 3: You know.
2:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's my initial view of it, you know,
2:45
for what it's worth.
2:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a step in. I found there was too
2:48
many characters, and I got a bit confused, and a
2:50
lot of them are called Jones. Well the family sue,
2:55
what about you?
2:56
Speaker 4: Yep, But when this book was chosen, I can't actually
2:59
remember who shows it.
3:02
Speaker 1: I was going to say that can chose it.
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Speaker 4: I have to admit that I had not heard of
3:08
the author, Bruce Chatwin, or the titles, so I suppose
3:12
I was both apprehensive and excited to start. If you
3:16
like this new chapter in my reading life. When I
3:20
read the blur, but wondered how the author was going
3:23
to hold my interest in such a limited location on
3:27
a farm on the Welsh borders, with just two main characters,
3:32
the identical twins Benjamin and Lewis, who never well, the
3:37
only left home wants to go on a family holiday,
3:40
but after that they didn't leave home. Now I do
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agree with what you're saying, Christer. There was barried. There's
3:48
a lot of characters flitting in and flitting out, which
3:52
sometimes are difficult to follow. But I thought the openings
3:57
set the scene perfectly, with Chetwyn saying that for first
4:02
two years, Lewis and Benjamin Jones set side by side
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in their parents' spared at a farm which was known
4:09
as the Vision, and I kind of went with that description.
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It put me in mind of where I actually was,
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and that it was going to be a book full
4:24
of remoteness, if you like. And I was hooked to
4:29
see how this novel would actually evolve. And I think
4:33
the style of writing is a great deal to do
4:37
with the appeal of the novel, and so I think
4:41
he describes beautifully and sometimes poignantly the lives and surroundings
4:46
of the twins, and I do think it's texture into
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a world as Salien to the hectic life of towns
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and cities that we know today, And I think perhaps
4:58
because of that, there is an adjustment of reading that's
5:04
needed to go from a book that has many scenes
5:08
and settings to one which really only has one location
5:14
with sort of like roads going off it and various
5:19
people coming in and out, but not with a lot
5:22
of life's experience, because they were all very much remote
5:26
within their own society.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I found that interesting too, And I also found
5:31
it interesting the relationship between Benjamin and Lewis. And I'd
5:38
never looked at twins in that way that they could.
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They didn't want to be separated, did they. They were
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unique twins and they had to have everything the same,
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even at one point a sandwich, they divide the sandwich
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so they both have the same sandwich. I thought that
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was interesting, and then the exploration of the different characters.
5:58
But I also got a bit confused with that too,
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because Benjamin he was the quiet one and Lewis was
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the outgoing one. But then Benjamin went to war, so
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I found that was quite interesting because he was physically stronger.
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But I also liked the way that everybody was anti
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war in that village and they didn't want their sons
6:19
to go to the war. So I liked that idea too.
6:23
I thought the end was a really good plot twist,
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almost Dickensian really, So yeah, so Barry, do you want
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to continue?
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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think.
6:33
Speaker 2: I Mean the reason why I chose Bruce Chatwin is,
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I mean, I've known Bruce Chatwin as a travel writer,
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and I'd read a lot of his contemporaries like Paul
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Throux and what have you, and so I was intrigued
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to when the book came up on the list, and
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I didn't really know what to expect of it. I mean,
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I still haven't read any of his travel books, I
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have to say, but I think that it's I think
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that the it's it's it's important to maybe look at
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the author with it, because yes, there is the idea
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that it's you know, a sort of a poor and
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austere life on the hill, you know, around the turn
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of the of the century prior to the First World War,
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and obviously covers that time through the First World War
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and through the Second World War as well. But I'm
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not sure on his own qualifications for actually writing in
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that manner, if you like. I don't think that he'd
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had a similar background. I think he was a very
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privileged man, Bruce Chapman, who died sadly very young, but
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was able to travel a lot, and I thought that
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his writing style was good. Apparently he after he left
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school public school. Of course, he didn't go on to
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Universe did, but became a porter in Southby's and ended
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up becoming the youngest director of antiquities in Southby's or whatever.
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So he was a very well connected man, and so
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he had the right connections to to deliver a novel
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which he won the first prize for the first novel,
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but apparently it wasn't his first novel, so I think
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that there, you know, there are certain elements of him
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as a writer and his past which I think illustrate
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some of the book to me. And one of the
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things was, you know, you mentioned about Lewis and Benjamin
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and Benjamin being the stronger one. I don't think that
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he was the stronger one. I think that he was
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favored by his mother, but he also loved very much
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his brother, and there was a there's a connection I
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think between the writer Bruce Chatwin, who was a bisextion
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and the twins and he and he explores some of
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the of his own characteristics through the twins. Now, I
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don't I don't have experience of twins, and I don't
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know whether that's a realistic thing or not. I don't
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know whether he knows whether that's a realistic.
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Speaker 3: Thing or not.
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Speaker 2: But you know, there were elements in there where Benjamin,
9:21
if you like, appeared to be maybe a gay character,
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and Lewis was was a was a straight character. And
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I think that that dynamic is quite important understanding the book.
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Speaker 1: Why do you think Benjamin was favored by his mother?
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And it's just a random question, but just think because
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he was more feminine.
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Speaker 3: I don't know it was.
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Speaker 2: In the book, you know, I mean he she she
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actually read literature to him, much to the chagrin of
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the father.
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Speaker 3: Who who who.
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Speaker 2: I find a very strange character because I don't know,
9:56
I don't know what triggered his violence, if you like.
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He seems to be a you know, a gentleman who
10:02
loved his wife, and then he sort of changed. And
10:06
I didn't really see what the triggers were. But one
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of the things was he didn't want the kids molly coddled,
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and you know, towards the end of the book, Lewis
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was certainly felt that he had been overlooked, if you like,
10:19
in favor of Benjamin, because his mother preferred Benjamin.
10:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think there was that argument between about
10:26
the land, wasn't there? That's when I think there was
10:28
the turning point of his mental health problems the father,
10:32
you may, Amos Jones, Yes.
10:34
Speaker 3: I mean, I think.
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Speaker 2: I mean what happened, just to you know, anybody listening
10:38
who wants to know a little bit more about the book,
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is that they leased a farm here, and his wife
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at least at least a farm. And then because you know,
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it goes back to another one of the themes which
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we seem to have through more classic literature than this,
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which is like of the wealthy landlowners.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 2: So, but the wealthy landowner died and they they were
11:00
selling off the plots, and his near neighbor forced the
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auction price up such that it was twice the amount
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that had been valued at, and they still bought it.
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But then his wife appealed to the to the widow
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of the of the landowner who liked his wife Mary,
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and so they they went back and gave it to
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them at the price that had originally been assessed at
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the thing that then which took which seemed to turn
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him because his wife, in the first instance, was the
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person who had got the least for the farm, and
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then she was the person who had persuaded them to
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give them the farm to buy. And I think he
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felt very emasculated by it, and it caused issues. But
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he was violent before that. I think, you know, he
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likely threw food on the floor and he you know,
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when she was reading Wuthering Heights, he hit her with it,
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you know, and it was like, you know, there were
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I found they were unexplained in the book. I couldn't
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see what the triggers were personally.
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Speaker 5: So can you add to that, Yeah, well, I think
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it's probably if you take it in the context of
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when it was written that he wanted to be the
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total both of.
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Speaker 4: His household, and his wife was intelligent and she liked
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to read, and I think that emasculated him completely because
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she could do something without him, independent of him, and
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I think he saw her as an additional property. And
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I think that's and that just got worse as time
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went on and life took its tone on him.
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Speaker 2: So I think you're right through. I think that that's
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that that's true. The point being for me is that
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when he first met her, he seemed like it was
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like love at first sight. They met, you know, in
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the church, and he chased after her, and he was
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he was kind to her, and it was I'm not
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quite sure at which point it became that he felt
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threatened if you liked by her, you know, because there
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was even his father who played the violin, would play that,
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she would play the piano, and they would sort of
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have great fun, and he seemed to be jealous of
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all of that, you know, And yet there was none
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of that, you know. I think, you know, it was
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just that his background hadn't been illustrated to demonstrate why
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that might have happened, you know what I mean. There
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was nothing in there to say, you know, as part
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of his childhood he felt neglected or whatever.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 4: Yes, well, maybe that came with marriage. I mean, if
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he had a mother that was subservient to his father,
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he would expect the same true marriage. Indeed, maybe, but
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he's got a woman who can read, who likes the classics,
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who can you know, play the piano who can negotiate deals,
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and maybe that isn't really bargained for all.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think you're right, But I mean the
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thing is I mean, I mean, the thing we haven't
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even mentioned yet, which I think is like a big
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deal as well, and the fact that we haven't even
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mentioned it, yeah, is that there's a daughter as well, Rebecca,
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who were like, isn't actually developed as a character at
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all until she becomes pregnant and gets thrown out.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 2: I was like, it was a bit sort of it
14:23
was as if it was like an outline for a
14:25
book that needed fleshing out more.
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Speaker 1: You know, But she is quite significant at the end,
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isn't when it comes aw full circle? What he's going
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to say?
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Speaker 4: So, well, I think she was just created to serve
14:37
a purpose further on in the plot. Yeah, yeah, the
14:41
character in her own right, But this is what has
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to happen, So therefore, how can I make it happen?
14:47
We didn't have to have a daughter, yeah, rather than
14:51
her as a balance between the two boys.
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Speaker 3: I think that's right.
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Speaker 2: But I think that you know, like I say, you know,
15:00
repeating myself, I think that it's like maybe the story
15:03
was a skeleton for something else which could have done
15:06
with more fleshing out.
15:07
Speaker 4: You know, I very agree with you there, Yes.
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Speaker 1: It seemed to The novel also looked at the differences
15:14
in people, didn't it, in cultures and like the Welsh
15:16
and the English, And I found that was quite interesting.
15:20
When they all break into the Welsh national anthem in
15:23
the courtroom, I quite like that. I thought I'd like
15:27
to have been there.
15:31
Speaker 2: I don't know, really, I mean I think that again,
15:34
you know, I didn't see what the reasoning for all
15:38
that was. You know, it's all very well, you know,
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unless it's just an in built you know, the welshape
15:44
the English, and the English looked down on the Welsh.
15:46
I mean, I don't know whether you know that was
15:48
was the case.
15:50
Speaker 1: But I thought the interesting quote from the book was
15:52
that the border of Radner and Hereford, which is Wales
15:55
and England, was said to run right through the middle
15:57
of the staircase. I love that bit. So I suppose
16:03
you would feel a little bit like you wanted to
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stay on the Welsh side if you're a Welsh and
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quite patriotic of anything English coming in, Which was the law,
16:11
wasn't it? All the people who were making. All the
16:14
rules were the English, I believe.
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Speaker 2: Like I said, I don't know. I mean, you know,
16:18
I'm fairly naive about these things. And I've always thought
16:21
of you know, Liverpool being the capital of North Wales,
16:24
you know, so it's like you know and Ireland, you know,
16:28
so I never see those sort of you know, we
16:31
have to ride on our bikes you know, to mold
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and places like that, you know.
16:35
Speaker 1: Definitely, yeah, you know, it.
16:37
Speaker 2: Wasn't as if we thought of it particularly as a
16:40
foreign country, certainly, but it didn't not enough to dislike
16:42
the people.
16:42
Speaker 3: Who lived there.
16:43
Speaker 1: But the Welsh were a different cattle of fish. They
16:45
didn't really like the English as far as I know. So, Sue,
16:51
can you add something else?
16:52
Speaker 4: Well? I think there was always the reminder with the
16:57
castles of the first for example, of how we conquered Wales,
17:03
and I think that would lead to a resentment, as
17:08
you know, you may you didn't conquer us. We've still
17:11
got spirit, you know, and we you know, and we
17:15
have moved on from that time. But when you drive
17:18
into North Wales, all the way around the coastload therese
17:21
reminders of the English supremacy, if you like. Now we
17:27
don't take it to heart as much now. But then
17:31
I think particularly in village life, they would want to
17:34
hold on to what was theirs because it's all be new.
17:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that that, you know.
17:39
Speaker 2: I mean there are things which obviously you know, demonstrates
17:44
English colonialization of Wales as in the same way as
17:49
in Ireland, you know, and what have you on. But
17:52
I mean, there was never any mention in there, you know,
17:55
of speaking Welsh, you know, or not being able to
17:58
speak well, so any of those things which you would
18:01
associate with having been oppressed in some way. That that's all,
18:05
you know, Like I say, there weren't the triggers there.
18:07
It was just that you needed to accept that they
18:09
hated them, you know. And because the person who was
18:13
acting on behalf of the landowner was was was an Englishman,
18:18
you know, and I thought it was fairly. I thought
18:22
it was funny in the end, you know that one
18:24
of the little things which they threw in the or
18:27
he threw in at the end was the fact that
18:30
the land agent solicitor had actually murdered his wife and
18:36
and and so he was he was arrested and hung,
18:39
you know. So it was like as it was if
18:41
the day knew Mont was like a happy ending as
18:44
far as the wel. But like I say, that was
18:48
another one which was like if if you'd missed a
18:51
couple of lines, you wouldn't have noticed it, you know,
18:53
it was I picked it up on the second reading.
18:56
Speaker 3: You know.
18:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, the priest the East was harsh, and I
19:02
found that was like an insight into how it used
19:05
to be, how church used to be back in the
19:07
day when he was Yeah, everyone was sinners and it
19:09
just seemed so doom and gloom. And so I found
19:12
that was interesting. When amos Amos Jones he turns to religion,
19:17
doesn't he get the.
19:18
Speaker 2: Chapel he goes from, because I think his wife was
19:21
sort of more.
19:24
Speaker 1: Mixed up.
19:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because her father had been like a vicar,
19:28
I think, so he certainly wasn't chapel. They weren't like
19:31
blood and thunder, you know. And she she'd and she
19:33
traveled in the Holy Land with him and what have you,
19:36
and and she'd been to all sorts of places. And
19:39
then he actually turned to chapel, which was, like I said,
19:42
the blood and thunderbeasts and you know, more of a
19:46
Puritan approach to religion, which again had quite a lot
19:52
of an effect on him because he was constantly beating
19:55
himself up for his vanity for having wanted to the
20:01
land and then have his wife do it sort of
20:03
on his behalf as again part of that emasculation thing,
20:07
you know.
20:07
Speaker 1: So yeah, So, Hannah Jones, that was the That was
20:12
Sam's wife, wasn't it. So it was Amos's mother, Yes,
20:16
And I found this was interesting when it says Sam's
20:19
wife was hostile to her daughter in law. She had
20:21
five children, a daughter who died of consumption, another daughter
20:26
who married a Catholic. The elder son died in Rhonda culpit,
20:30
and her favorite son, Eddie, stole her savings and ran
20:33
away to Canada. She was left living with Amos.
20:36
Speaker 2: So I thought that was there's a better book in there.
20:40
I think in that particular story.
20:43
Speaker 1: It's almost like anything else go wrong. So yes, so
20:48
soon can you add some more of your insights to
20:51
the novel?
20:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that the harshness of the priest was
20:58
in those days, they were so strict and there was
21:02
no deviation. And even I'm going back to my mom
21:07
who was when she was a teenager worked in the
21:10
Providence hospital that was run by nuns, and she cleaned
21:15
the doctor's quotas and hands were dirty and there was
21:18
no soap, so she saw this soap in the bathroom
21:22
and washed her hands, and she nearly got the sack
21:24
because it was the doctor's soap and she got no
21:27
right to use it. And that was the nuns for
21:30
on a warning and really castigated her for using the
21:35
doctor's soap. So I mean, and that's within my lifetime. Yeah,
21:41
you know that Memories was in my lifetime, So I
21:44
think that was accurate. And of course the priests held
21:47
a lot of power within a village and a lot
21:52
of people were frightened of crossing the priest door. And
21:56
she said, would go to him for comfort, like offloading
21:59
your problems on the priest if you like, like a counselor,
22:04
you know the role of a counselor. And I think
22:08
that again, I think there is right when he said
22:12
a lot of these characters are worth law and a
22:17
chapter of their own truth. But I do think if
22:21
the book had been any longer, I would have probably
22:25
lost interest.
22:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny that, I mean, I know you don't
22:29
like to watch the films, but there's a film on
22:31
YouTube of it too, and which I watched this with
22:34
this morning, and to some extent to reinforce my own view,
22:38
they left quite a lot of.
22:39
Speaker 3: The characters out totally, you know.
22:41
Speaker 2: When I think that it didn't the story didn't sort
22:44
of lose by them, by them going you know, so
22:48
I think that, yeah, because there was you know, there
22:51
was there were certainly there were so many aspects and
22:53
there were certainly It's funny really because if you look
22:56
at you know, how a director might because they said
22:58
one stage it might have been unfilmable, but the way
23:00
the director went about it, I thought worked. I don't
23:03
think it was a great film. It's certainly it's it's
23:05
it's okay to watch, and if you've read the book
23:07
you'd probably find it interesting as well, if if only
23:10
from the cinematography, you know, because the hills are pretty impressive.
23:14
Speaker 3: And what have you. You know.
23:15
Speaker 1: I'll admit I watched the film as well, but I
23:18
thought it was so interesting that you couldn't get into
23:20
the heads of Benjamin and Lewis, and that was and
23:23
that was a big thing in the book, was what
23:25
they thought and how they missed each other and how
23:27
was it Benjamin felt Lewis's pain.
23:30
Speaker 2: I think that it's both of them. I think that
23:32
Lewis felt Benjamin's pain when he was he was alienated
23:39
from him at one stage because he'd actually been seduced
23:43
by the artist lady Joey Lambert. I think from memory
23:48
that Lewis had actually been seduced by her, and and
23:56
Benjamin was really put out by that and was was
23:59
was made can comment about it, and Lewis actually hit
24:03
him and then left home and he was only found
24:07
by his his his mother and and he'd apparently tried
24:14
to commit suicide. It actually slit his wrists, you know,
24:17
because and he said, you know, if they had if
24:20
they hand offend he cut it off thing and and
24:23
and you know when he was when he was away,
24:29
In fact, that might have been a slightly different time,
24:31
but when he was away from him, I think when
24:33
he was buying a hat and Benjamin was lost on
24:37
the hill, and he felt the pain and he went
24:41
home because he was that because he was supposed to
24:43
be working on another farm, so he avoided going to
24:46
the war.
24:48
Speaker 3: That was the point.
24:49
Speaker 2: And and he actually came back on the train and
24:52
found Benjamin.
24:53
Speaker 3: You know, that was one of the things.
24:55
Speaker 2: And then even towards the end, when Lewis has his
24:58
accident which proves faith, Benjamin looks like he's had a
25:02
heart attack and he says, it's not you know, it
25:06
wasn't it's not him. It's about Lewis, you know, And
25:09
that's when they went and found him.
25:10
Speaker 3: You know.
25:10
Speaker 2: So there is certainly that that that feeling towards her.
25:14
But just on that, on that simple top topic about
25:17
the Joy Lambert thing, these characters who had been introduced
25:23
again as a little foil in there were both artists,
25:27
and the guy apparently was gay, and the wife was.
25:33
Speaker 1: She was lonely.
25:36
Speaker 2: I was going to say game. I don't know whether
25:38
that's the rise the light expression she was certainly she
25:43
was seeking a bit more adventure and so and this
25:46
is where she seduces Lewis. But at that same stage,
25:51
the gay guy was actually drawing Benjamin. And one of
25:55
the things which I thought was quite telling was that
25:57
that Benjamin told him things that had.
25:59
Speaker 3: Happened to him.
26:00
Speaker 2: Because he didn't have a successful war career, he was
26:03
actually he was treated quite badly, and he actually told
26:09
this guy the things that had happened to him, things
26:14
which he wouldn't have told his brother, which I thought
26:16
was like again, quite telling, because he couldn't imagine that
26:19
there were anything that they couldn't tell each other.
26:22
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I don't understand what the significance was of
26:25
the white feather? Was that because you were a coward
26:28
or some cowardice?
26:29
Speaker 3: White feather?
26:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, has different connotations these days. These days it can mean.
26:35
Speaker 1: And someone's died, you remember them.
26:37
Speaker 2: Well, there's there's a thing which Julian Julian Lennon did,
26:40
which is that his father had said to her, have
26:42
you ever see a white feather? Then that reminds me
26:44
of you, which is a far better connotation than telling
26:47
somebody that they're a coward.
26:50
Speaker 3: But I mean, yes, I mean it was his It
26:53
was his former sort.
26:54
Speaker 2: Of the girl of his desires, if you like, who
26:58
actually gave him the the white feather. And he was unaware,
27:03
but Benjamin, Benjamin was aware.
27:08
Speaker 4: So yeah, Well they used to the always us to
27:11
when soldiers were going off, you know, from state train stations,
27:16
and there were people there who you know, may have
27:20
been on you know sort of that on war work,
27:25
so not to recruited for the army. The women used
27:28
to go and just give them all like feathers, and
27:33
it was one of the worst insults you could give
27:36
to somebody. And I think the level for me is interesting,
27:42
the way the two men developed differently, and although they're
27:46
so close, they do actually have personalities and likes and
27:51
dislikes of their own. And I think you can tell
27:55
without looking at the name in the book who's saying what.
28:00
They don't merge into one and as to get older,
28:04
I think they don't. I think they do separate a bit. Yeah,
28:09
And I have wondered sort of what would have happened
28:13
if they'd left the farm? Yeah, what would what would
28:17
have happened to them? Would have stayed together or would
28:19
they have dodged new lives?
28:21
Speaker 1: They seemed to have to stay together, didn't they? And
28:24
they seemed like they shared the same bed and lived
28:27
in the same house.
28:28
Speaker 4: It was because did they stayed because they knew nothing
28:32
else and they were frightened? Ah, would that feel have
28:37
gone if they'd moved on?
28:40
Speaker 1: Yeah? Because none of them married, did they know?
28:43
Speaker 2: I think, you know, that's an interesting point. It goes
28:45
back to what I was saying earlier on Really I
28:48
don't know enough about twins, you know, or identical twins
28:51
to know how they might react, you know, to each other.
28:55
I mean, the way I read it was that Benjamin
29:00
really loved his brother and was jealous of anybody having
29:06
any connection with him, whereas Lewis was sort of more straightforward.
29:13
And I found that if it was, like I don't
29:16
know whether this was an unfair characterization, Benjamin was characterized
29:21
as the one who was like sort of nater and
29:24
cleaner and good at baking, you know what I mean.
29:26
Speaker 3: It was a bit like.
29:28
Speaker 2: He was taking on a female role, if you like,
29:31
in inverted commerce. You know, within that, within that that partnership,
29:37
and like I say, without knowing how twins actually operate,
29:40
or you know whether whether whether that sort of thing
29:43
is a normal thing, natural or whatever.
29:45
Speaker 1: You know, in the beginning, when they were children, it says,
29:48
they used to argue without talking, and they had their
29:50
own middle kind of telepathic language. So can you add anything, well.
29:55
Speaker 4: I know, true, well, identical twins and about now now,
30:00
and they have their own language. They've invented their own
30:04
language between them, yes, and they will say something and
30:09
they're sort of like told to speak English if you like,
30:12
but they have between them worked out their own coded language.
30:18
So it's a connection there. And I know twins. I've
30:22
known them for oh gosh, most of my life actually,
30:26
and they always dress alike even now, and they must
30:31
be in the almost eighty and they are with the husbands,
30:36
and all four moves one unit. And yet I know
30:41
other twins were they are. They're completely separate, the friends,
30:46
but the completely separate, different jobs, different lives.
30:51
Speaker 3: The thing is.
30:52
Speaker 2: That some of them are identical twins and some of
30:54
them are non identical twins. They did introduce that to
30:57
psychologist at the end a lot of something, you know,
31:01
the germal and again another one of these sort of
31:03
random characters who just turned up for a couple of lines,
31:07
you know. But you know, it's just so turned out
31:09
in a sort of a Thomas Hardy type coincidence, that
31:14
she'd been studying twins in.
31:15
Speaker 3: Vienna before she came over. You know, we thought that's andy,
31:19
isn't it.
31:21
Speaker 1: Everything fitted in? So anything else you need to add,
31:26
I just think.
31:28
Speaker 4: I did feel that the twins were at a sense
31:31
of togetherness, but I did feel sadness for them at times,
31:36
and I thought that there were things in the book
31:39
that were dark. But then I thought there was always humor, like,
31:43
you know, the auctioneer who is so pompous and yet
31:46
is a murderer. And I think there was just there
31:50
was enough light moments to take you through the blackness
31:55
of the book if you like.
31:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, what did you think of the end? Did you?
32:00
Were you happy with the end or disappointed?
32:04
Speaker 4: I think I think I was happy with the end
32:06
because I couldn't see where else it could go, so
32:09
it had to be tied up, and I thought it
32:12
was a good job of doing that.
32:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the end was the best. What about you,
32:17
I'm not sure.
32:18
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.
32:19
Speaker 2: I don't like to be negative about it, but I
32:21
found it. One of the sort of the randomly developed
32:24
characters was Kevin, who was the long lost great nephew
32:31
who you know that conveniently turned up so that they
32:35
could he could be somebody that they could pass the
32:39
farm onto or gift the farm onto. And the way
32:42
that he was developed because we meet him as a
32:44
sort of a six year old in a nativity play,
32:47
and then a little bit later he is in with
32:50
the wrong type of people and with a motorcycle jacket,
32:54
and then the next thing is he's got a nice
32:58
wife and takes them out for their tieth birthday to
33:02
on a flying thing, you know, and I just some
33:06
of it just went a bit too good glibly for me.
33:09
Speaker 3: You know. It was like I thought, where are we now?
33:11
Speaker 2: You know, It's like and I found a lot of
33:13
you know, through a lot of the book, I didn't
33:15
really get a sense of apart from particularly the First
33:19
World War and the Second World War, where I sort
33:21
of felt and knew where I was. For the rest
33:22
of the time, I was like, because you know, I'm like,
33:25
where are we?
33:26
Speaker 3: Where are we now? In time? You know.
33:28
Speaker 4: Anyway, maybe it was because it was the eighteenth birthday
33:32
and they couldn't live forever that he changed his mind, yeah,
33:35
and was nice to them. So we get the farm.
33:37
Speaker 2: Well he's already I mean, he'd been gifted the farm
33:40
already because that was the thing, you know, so they didn't.
33:42
Speaker 3: Have to pay tax duties.
33:43
Speaker 4: You know, people could change the mind.
33:47
Speaker 2: I don't know whether they'd be able to change their
33:48
mind on that, mind, you because once they'd gifted the
33:51
farm to him, it wouldn't be theirs anymore. They could
33:54
if they'd put it in the will, then that would
33:56
have been the case, and they could have changed the will,
33:58
but they actually took the thing, but the other part
34:00
of it. And again, you know, if you were looking
34:02
for a character to develop, I mean they sort of
34:05
part he sort of partly developed the character of the
34:08
great nephew. But they had a niece, you know, and
34:13
like she wasn't developed at all. You know, they saw
34:16
her as being sort of wanting the money. But you know,
34:20
strictly speaking, you know that she was entitled to the money.
34:24
Speaker 1: She was a male.
34:26
Speaker 2: No, No, she wasn't. But you know, I mean we're
34:28
talking about I mean, it must have been you know,
34:31
nineteen seventies at least right then, you know.
34:34
Speaker 1: So as late as that if they were in the wall.
34:37
Speaker 2: Her part, well, yeah, because it was her father had
34:41
I mean, let's put it this way. You know they
34:44
were looking at you know, hang gliders and Cessna airplanes
34:48
and things, weren't they an Yeah.
34:49
Speaker 1: I thought that was a bit confusing, really because I
34:51
thought it was earlier than that we are talking about.
34:54
On the Black Hill by Bruce Chatwin. That's the novel
34:58
this month.
34:59
Speaker 4: Soon.
35:00
Speaker 1: Do you want to add anything else?
35:02
Speaker 4: No? I think for me, I enjoyed reading it but twice,
35:07
but I think I wouldn't was shout to buy another
35:11
one of his novels. Sometimes you read a novelist, I
35:18
think I want to read something else you've written. I
35:20
don't feel it with.
35:24
Speaker 1: Maybe not his novels. I might read some of his
35:26
travel writings. I'm quite curious.
35:28
Speaker 2: I was quite intrigued to read song Lines, which is
35:30
his stuff about Australia, you know, and the Aboriginal people
35:37
that he'd met. You know, that was the thing which
35:39
I really wanted to read. And then when this came
35:41
up on the list, you know, that's why I chose it.
35:44
But I have got a copy of song Lines, and
35:46
I probably will read it. But I take exactly what
35:48
you were saying. In terms of novels. I found that
35:50
it was. Yeah, there was an awful lot more to write,
35:56
I think, and an awful lot more to develop the people,
36:00
which would have been a lot more satisfying as it was.
36:03
I think it was. It was unsatisfying from that perspective.
36:07
Speaker 1: Particularly out of ten. What would you give it, Barry?
36:11
Speaker 2: That's a slightly difficult question. But I don't think i'd
36:15
give it more than than six.
36:18
Speaker 1: I would say, how about you, Sue?
36:20
Speaker 4: Six?
36:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think me too. Six yeah, I wouldn't really
36:25
read it again. I did see the film as well, and.
36:29
Speaker 4: I will watch the film now I've done this, I'll
36:31
watched the film.
36:32
Speaker 2: It's on YouTube, you know, so it's just like free,
36:35
like the whole thing is just on YouTube.
36:37
Speaker 3: If you look up on the Black Hill, you know.
36:40
Speaker 4: Yeah, I shall definitely watch it.
36:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just going to mention that anyone can join
36:45
this reading room. We are at Liverpool Community Radio on
36:48
Helt Road. Our phone number is seven seven six one
36:54
nine eight six three. That's seven seven six one six'.
37:01
Three so every month we choose a book and we
37:06
read it and then discuss. It so anyone who's out
37:08
there who wants to join, in CAN i either read
37:10
the book from home and just listen to our. Discussion
37:13
Al they're welcome to come Into Liverpool Community radio and
37:17
discuss it with. Us we'd love to have some more
37:19
people come on. Board but just before we go on
37:22
to choosing the next, Novel Sue, gerard you've been a
37:25
member of this group for a long time and you
37:28
are a published author and you're based In Saint, Helens
37:31
so do you want to just mention what's happening this?
37:34
Speaker 4: WEEKEND i will christa. Well last YEAR i had a
37:39
new local history book, published which Was Carlson tallin's in Fifty.
37:44
Buildings but after that sort of sign the, contract it
37:51
was the buildings had to be. Standing SO i, thought,
37:55
WELL i could have a problem with. THIS i might
37:57
not be able to sign fifty interesting buildings things that
38:00
are still. Standing but actually ended up with too many
38:03
and a lot of the RESEARCH i do sparks my other,
38:09
passion which is writing poetry and also writing short, stories
38:15
so the work side by. Side and Currently i'm working
38:20
on another book For Ambley publishing which is Celebrating Saint
38:25
helens And i'm finding some very interesting material in. That
38:30
so there's books everywhere at the moment relating to that,
38:35
aspect And i'm hoping to put together a narrative DIARY
38:43
i think is the word About Richard. Sedden have you
38:47
heard Of richard Send. Well Richard seddon was the longest
38:52
Saving Prime minister Of New zealand and he was born
38:56
In Saint helens and HE i always thought WHEN i
39:03
was sort of growing up That Richard sedden had been
39:06
born rich and gone over To New zealand To, australia
39:12
first and Then New, zealand you, know with a reference
39:16
and family over, there where he actually went when he was,
39:20
sixteen just with an engineer's mechanical engineering certificate with his
39:26
fourteen year old brother on the own and work the
39:29
passage To williamstown which is now part Of, melbourne and
39:34
then went To New, zealand but he introduced the first
39:38
old age pensions and basically their welfare. State AND i
39:45
received a writing residency to go To New zealand and
39:48
Research Richard. Sedden and this diary is basically my findings
39:54
Of Richard seddon and how much he was influenced by
39:59
his upbringing in some talents and he took that influences
40:03
over To New zealand to more or less fund a welfare.
40:06
State and it's one hundred years this year since he,
40:10
died one hundred and twenty years sorry since he, died
40:13
and he died in. Office so that's another project That
40:19
i'm working, on but more, imminent and it's haunting. Me
40:24
Christ if my ghost story night tomorrow ye Where i'll
40:28
be telling ghost. Stories one of them is inspired by
40:34
some RESEARCH i did for a local history. Book so
40:39
the evening has one flash fiction and four ghost stories
40:44
and you get a complimented in some and THEN i
40:49
sort of read my ghost stories and THEN i wish
40:51
you all a safe journey home and pleasant.
40:54
Speaker 1: DREAMS i would actually really recommend that BECAUSE i have
40:56
been and we're going to have to Have i'm just
40:58
looking At barry, now we're going to have to group
41:00
trip over. There at some POINT i had. Been it was,
41:03
Excellent it's really. Fun i'd write myself to.
41:10
Speaker 5: DEATH i bet you.
41:11
Speaker 1: Do But i'm just just a. Question so you know this.
41:14
Research so you did the research for the man The
41:17
Prime minister From Saint Helen's how can you research when
41:21
it's such a long time? Ago do you have to
41:23
go to the?
41:23
Speaker 4: Library, WELL i first came across and WHEN i worked
41:27
in the, library and THEN i did do a lot
41:31
of research in the. Library BUT i was also put
41:34
in touch with a man Called Tom brooking Who's New
41:38
zealand and he wrote the definitive biography Of Richard. Seddon
41:42
he did come over To Saint helens and researched as,
41:45
well and WHEN i was over In, Doneda tom guided
41:50
me to an awful lot of sources and then they
41:52
were excellent in The library And wellington because they hunted
41:57
out a film Of Richard seddon's Few inuneral and there
42:01
were thousands. There there was people hanging some lamp posts on,
42:06
walls everything to get a picture of this. Man and
42:10
if eether you see a statue of the beehive The
42:13
New Zealand, parliament his statue is outside and there's only
42:19
two statues. There one's balanced but his is to the,
42:22
side But Richard sadon's statue dominates the front of the.
42:26
Beehive and there was he called a lot of hospitals
42:31
over There St Hellians. Hospitals there's a whole chain of
42:35
hospitals known as The Saintellians. Hospitals and they also dug
42:39
out a film with him welcoming The All blacks back
42:44
from a world, tour and he has this he's running
42:51
down the steps of the ship and the team are
42:53
in like a carts, basically and they're all smoking their
42:56
heads off and he looks like the fittest of a
42:59
lot of. Them so there was the actually video of,
43:02
him this film of him.
43:03
Speaker 1: As, well really, interesting.
43:07
Speaker 4: Fascinating well you've got you've.
43:08
Speaker 1: Really got me interested In Saint Helen's.
43:11
Speaker 5: Oh, god it's a really interesting.
43:13
Speaker 1: Place, yeah, okay then there is ABSOLUTELY i love the
43:20
center Of Saint. HELENS i never thought i'd say, that
43:22
BUT i. Do it's it's almost like A spanish city
43:25
with the cathedral or the church in the. MIDDLE i
43:28
love that in the in the, square it's beautiful. Church,
43:32
anyway back to the time of the, show when we
43:35
choose the next, book so we have three options, here
43:38
we have.
43:39
Speaker 4: It in the.
43:39
Speaker 1: Tambourine just dropped them on the, Floor, barry he's going
43:44
to choose go On No cheating.
43:53
Speaker 3: To The lighthouse By Virginia.
43:55
Speaker 1: Wolf that's. Yours Oh i've never, read but Your wolf
44:00
actually that? Interesting yeah? Cool so well, yeah so anybody out,
44:04
there you are very welcome to. Come there's a cafe
44:08
where the radio. Whereas it's called The question Of, inequalities
44:12
and it's a great. Cafe you can get breakfast or
44:15
soups and it's really reasonable, price fresh coffee and. Tea
44:19
and you could come in there and meet us on
44:21
the next reading, room or you can just get the
44:23
book and read it at home and join. Us our
44:27
phone number is seven seven six one nine oh eight six,
44:31
three or you can just call. In so we'll arrange
44:35
the next reading. Room but shall we just close the
44:38
show with something to say about the last novel in a?
44:42
Sentence barry you, first then sue them.
44:45
Speaker 2: ME i THINK i probably said plenty about, It BUT
44:50
i would say that as a as a, Novel i'd
44:54
like to read his travel books about, That so.
44:57
Speaker 1: No more novels just to, travel not by.
45:00
Speaker 3: Him you.
45:00
Speaker 2: Know BUT i mean he's a good. Writer you, know he's,
45:04
succinct and he's you, know he is definitely. Readable but
45:10
it's more about the development of the, characters which let.
45:13
Speaker 1: Me down really, anyway soe one sentence about the.
45:16
Speaker 4: BOOK i enjoyed reading, it BUT i would not push
45:22
to read another one of his. Novels travel books is
45:25
a different.
45:26
Speaker 1: Thing, Yeah AND i would, say If Bruce chatwin was,
45:31
LISTENING i just, say can you make less characters and
45:36
make it a bit easier to? UNDERSTAND i found it
45:39
was a bit too complex for. ME i had to
45:41
keep going back and seeing who was. Talking and like you, Said,
45:45
sue you could tell which twin was. TALKING i. COULDN'T
45:48
i REALLY i had to keep going back and see
45:51
who was saying. It because ALSO i found with his
45:54
sentencings he would just go into, dialogue wouldn't, He and
45:57
he wouldn't say who was? Talking AND i got read
45:59
from you get?
46:00
Speaker 4: That?
46:01
Speaker 1: Okay anything else to add to this month's. Show.
46:05
Speaker 4: NO i just think it's. Interesting we all pick up
46:07
on different.
46:08
Speaker 1: Things, really and it's good to be, back isn't.
46:10
Speaker 3: It i've enjoyed.
46:14
Speaker 1: And exciting to read the next. NOVEL i just want
46:17
to say hello To yvonne by the. Way that's just
46:19
a friend of mine WHO i hope is. Listening we
46:21
have one, listener. Guys, okay so see you as all next.
46:27
Month take care, Everyone thank, you bye, bye right