Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Brandi Carlile

Transcript

Brandi Carlile · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:08
Speaker 1: Pushkin, armed with only what she calls poor kid work ethic.
0:15
Speaker 1: Brandy Carlisle spent the early part of her life fighting
0:17
Speaker 1: her parents, politics, the church, and fighting to be heard
0:20
Speaker 1: while singing over belligerent drunks and crowded bars. Brandy's voice
0:25
Speaker 1: demands attention, as you might recall hearing in our episode
0:28
Speaker 1: with Jack White and Brendan Benson. Her twenty nineteen Grammy
0:32
Speaker 1: performance of her song The Joke blew even her most
0:34
Speaker 1: critical of peers away. But long before that, she was
0:38
Speaker 1: already making a name for herself on stages across the
0:40
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest, where she was raised and now lives with
0:43
Speaker 1: her twin bandmates she simply calls the Twins, and since
0:48
Speaker 1: then she's released six albums, formed The High Woman with
0:50
Speaker 1: Marion Morris and Amanda Shires, and has just generally captured
0:54
Speaker 1: the attention of the music world. In her chat with Rick,
0:57
Speaker 1: she recounts her tumultuous passed and talked about how she's
1:00
Speaker 1: learned to pick her battles over her long career. And
1:03
Speaker 1: then there's a night she witnessed a miracle at Joni
1:06
Speaker 1: Mitchell's house. This is broken record liner notes for the
1:12
Speaker 1: Digital Age I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here.
1:21
Speaker 1: You can listen to all of the music mentioned in
1:23
Speaker 1: this episode on our playlist, which you can find a
1:25
Speaker 1: link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each
1:29
Speaker 1: time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear
1:32
Speaker 1: this sound effect. All right, enjoyed the episode. Here's Rick
1:38
Speaker 1: Rubin and Brandy Carlisle from Shangula. I remember the first
1:43
Speaker 1: time I saw you, and I don't remember how it
1:47
Speaker 1: worked out that you were on the show that I
1:50
Speaker 1: saw you at, but I saw you at a place
1:52
Speaker 1: called the wilshirt Ebel Theater. Yeah, and you're opening for
1:57
Speaker 1: James Taylor. And I was there to see James Taylor,
2:01
Speaker 1: and I didn't know you, and I don't even think
2:04
Speaker 1: I stayed to watch James Taylor. After I saw you,
2:06
Speaker 1: I was so blown away. And I remember you got
2:08
Speaker 1: a standing ovation as an as an unknown opening act. Yeah,
2:12
Speaker 1: I remember. It was like it was it was ridiculous.
2:16
Speaker 1: It was really a ridiculous performance. And the people that
2:20
Speaker 1: had come to see it, like um from Columbia Records
2:24
Speaker 1: and stuff, they told me the next day they said, God,
2:28
Speaker 1: you know, there was no way backstage at that show.
2:32
Speaker 1: But on the stage and there was no intermission between
2:36
Speaker 1: me and James, and James came out to play his
2:37
Speaker 1: first song and the whole theater saw you walk backstage
2:41
Speaker 1: during Fire and Rain and they were like, Rick Ruman's
2:45
Speaker 1: going back there. We got to sign this girl. He
2:49
Speaker 1: sees something and when he sees something, it it's real,
2:54
Speaker 1: and you know it was real. It really. I really
2:58
Speaker 1: don't think you understand how much of an impact you
3:01
Speaker 1: made in that sense, you know, happy to be of service,
3:05
Speaker 1: had no idea, but happy to be of services, sir.
3:08
Speaker 1: But you actually saw me way earlier than that. Yeah, yeah,
3:12
Speaker 1: do you want to know? Yeah? Please? So, um, I'm
3:15
Speaker 1: writing a book and I'm not sure why I'm doing it,
3:17
Speaker 1: but there's a whole lot about you in there. Wow.
3:20
Speaker 1: Because I got asked to open for a kid, a
3:25
Speaker 1: guy called Johnny Lange in Seattle, and a guy called
3:29
Speaker 1: Brendan Mendoza was in the audience. Yeah, and I was
3:32
Speaker 1: only maybe nineteen thirty nine now, so it's a long
3:34
Speaker 1: time ago. Yeah, Brendan Mendoza. So I worked for a
3:37
Speaker 1: guy called Rick Rubin. Yeah, he was a young and
3:39
Speaker 1: our guy who worked at at American Recordings. Yeah, and
3:43
Speaker 1: he flew me to La to play for you at
3:48
Speaker 1: a swinghouse, and no recollection of that. Well, I did
3:52
Speaker 1: because it was a make or break moment in my life.
3:54
Speaker 1: That was, of course. And this is an interesting thing
3:57
Speaker 1: I've learned since I gained this notoriety for an artist,
4:01
Speaker 1: how a public person can have such an impact on
4:05
Speaker 1: another person's life without even really knowing, you know, and
4:10
Speaker 1: it's just this one of the inconsequential things. But to me,
4:13
Speaker 1: it was an enormous deal because I was being flown
4:17
Speaker 1: there to play for you, and I had got really sick,
4:20
Speaker 1: like a laryngitis, and I have this terrible paradoxical allergy
4:25
Speaker 1: to cough medicine that I didn't know about, and I
4:27
Speaker 1: took a cough medicine and I started having a neurological
4:32
Speaker 1: reaction to it. I had involuntary muscle spasms in my
4:36
Speaker 1: face and hands, and I'm sitting there trying to play
4:40
Speaker 1: my showcase for you, and I can't remember the words,
4:44
Speaker 1: and my fingers won't press down on the strings to
4:46
Speaker 1: play the chords, and I have muscle twitches in my jaw,
4:48
Speaker 1: and I just felt like my life was ending. And
4:51
Speaker 1: you interrupted my showcase and you said, is there something
4:54
Speaker 1: about you today that's making you not be yourself? And
4:58
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, I'm really sick and I think I'm
5:00
Speaker 1: having an allergic reaction to this cough medication. And you said, well,
5:04
Speaker 1: why don't you go home and get better and then
5:06
Speaker 1: come back and do this again. Wow. I was like, yeah, right, yeah,
5:10
Speaker 1: fucking right. I know I'm never going to get a
5:12
Speaker 1: chance to come back here and play for you again.
5:15
Speaker 1: And I went home, no recollection. It's unbelievable. It's a
5:18
Speaker 1: great story. I went home thinking I've blown it, and
5:23
Speaker 1: you brought me back two weeks later and I was
5:26
Speaker 1: better and I was really ready, and I played for
5:28
Speaker 1: you at Swing House and it's like, I remember what
5:31
Speaker 1: I was wearing, I remember everything. And the very first
5:33
Speaker 1: song I played for you was a song called Shadow
5:35
Speaker 1: on the Wall. And I had showcased for just about
5:39
Speaker 1: every record label and everyone passed yeah, and some people
5:44
Speaker 1: didn't even wait till I was finished singing a song
5:45
Speaker 1: before they leave the room. And I finished that song
5:49
Speaker 1: and you put your hand up and you were sitting
5:51
Speaker 1: just like that, and you said, that's a really amazing song.
5:55
Speaker 1: Will you play it again? And I knew right then
5:59
Speaker 1: that I was gonna make it. I knew it. I
6:03
Speaker 1: was like, he wants me to play it again? And
6:05
Speaker 1: I played it again and ended. You said, why don't
6:08
Speaker 1: you just play it one more time? Really again? And
6:13
Speaker 1: I played it again, and I played you two more songs,
6:16
Speaker 1: and you had me played those songs again. And by
6:18
Speaker 1: the time it had ended, I'd played three songs seven
6:22
Speaker 1: or eight times. And we had a conversation. You told
6:26
Speaker 1: me you'd just seen Damien Rice. Yeah, and Johnny Cash
6:31
Speaker 1: was still alive. Yes, And you said that you thought
6:35
Speaker 1: we would know each other and worked together down the road,
6:40
Speaker 1: and a word spread about that, and you know, it
6:44
Speaker 1: was looking like I was going to sign to American
6:47
Speaker 1: for a long time. But I remember that, and I
6:50
Speaker 1: remember what happened. I remember I was moving from one
6:53
Speaker 1: label to another. You were in total chaos at the moment, yeah,
6:57
Speaker 1: moving from one label to another. And I remember that
7:00
Speaker 1: at the new label, whereas my new distributor was going
7:02
Speaker 1: to be Warner Brothers. And I said, this is the
7:05
Speaker 1: first act that we're going to do. And I remember
7:07
Speaker 1: the Warner Brothers people didn't didn't get it and didn't
7:09
Speaker 1: like it. And I remember I couldn't believe it. It's
7:12
Speaker 1: like she's incredible. She's incredible. No one got it. You
7:16
Speaker 1: were the first one Rick to ever get it. You're
7:18
Speaker 1: the first one to ever say play that again. And
7:21
Speaker 1: so I'll never forget it. And you know that James
7:25
Speaker 1: Taylor's show that you were at, it made me look
7:27
Speaker 1: so cool. Everybody talked about it for here. Sure that
7:30
Speaker 1: the James Taylor was after the Swing House. Yeah, yeah,
7:34
Speaker 1: I don't remember the Swing House, but I definitely remember
7:36
Speaker 1: the James Taylor because I just couldn't believe what I
7:38
Speaker 1: was seeing. Well, your life was much different than my
7:41
Speaker 1: life was at the time, wasn't it. You know, No,
7:43
Speaker 1: I trust you one. I'm not questioning what you're saying.
7:46
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you I don't remember it. Yeah, I
7:49
Speaker 1: bet it was. You were so beloved and just popular
7:54
Speaker 1: and such an inspiration to me. Yeah, incredible, And you
7:59
Speaker 1: brought me back, you gave me a second chance. And
8:03
Speaker 1: at the James Taylor show also, Columbia Records was there,
8:07
Speaker 1: and that's when I got my deal with Columbia Records
8:09
Speaker 1: and made my first album, Amazing. And then I remember
8:14
Speaker 1: when I was at Columbia for a little while, we
8:16
Speaker 1: worked together on Give Up the Ghost whatever, Yeah, whatever
8:19
Speaker 1: album you're working on at the time, and I remember
8:21
Speaker 1: it was fun. It was fun. Yeah. Yeah, that's still
8:25
Speaker 1: my favorite album actually beautiful, Yeah, beautiful, I love it. It
8:29
Speaker 1: It was a big emotional hard time for me in
8:32
Speaker 1: my life. I don't like who I was really at
8:35
Speaker 1: that time, but um, I liked the album. Yeah, I remember.
8:39
Speaker 1: I just remember the power in the vocals was off
8:43
Speaker 1: the chart, like yeah, because you had me singing into
8:47
Speaker 1: a sm seven right, is that what they're called microphone? Yeah,
8:52
Speaker 1: And every other microphone i'd ever sang into, I would distort,
8:57
Speaker 1: so the engineer or the producer would ask me to
8:59
Speaker 1: sing differently. I end up doing a little mic control. Yeah,
9:02
Speaker 1: and it messed with my performance emotionally. So I never
9:06
Speaker 1: sounded on an album like I did Live and Tell
9:08
Speaker 1: that album because we use the same mike you would
9:11
Speaker 1: use live, because you sounded good live, Yeah, And you
9:15
Speaker 1: just seems like it would be obvious now it seems
9:18
Speaker 1: like it would be obvious, but apparently it's only obvious
9:20
Speaker 1: to you. So since then, how many albums have you
9:26
Speaker 1: made seven seven as an artist? Yes, and the last
9:33
Speaker 1: one was maybe You're most well received of the bat,
9:39
Speaker 1: which is unusual in today's world because normally first couple
9:43
Speaker 1: of albums tend to do really good and then people
9:45
Speaker 1: fade away and you've only kind of continued to build
9:49
Speaker 1: over the seven albums. Yeah, yeah, because of that. But
9:53
Speaker 1: some of it has to do with just sort of
9:55
Speaker 1: like a cultural undertone, like where we are in the
9:57
Speaker 1: world right now and the perspective that the album was
10:01
Speaker 1: written from. I think it gave people comfort in a
10:04
Speaker 1: way that it resonated sort of beyond I think me
10:07
Speaker 1: as an artist and more into the sort of culturals
10:10
Speaker 1: that gust of like, I wonder if that's true. I
10:13
Speaker 1: think you're selling yourself short, do you think? I don't know.
10:16
Speaker 1: I think it belongs to the moment, but maybe maybe yes,
10:20
Speaker 1: it belongs to the moment, and yes, the moment plays
10:24
Speaker 1: a role. But the reason people like it is because
10:27
Speaker 1: you're great. And that's the real reason. Thank you. I
10:32
Speaker 1: will receive that. I think, weren't it great? And it
10:34
Speaker 1: was right in the moment, it wouldn't matter at all
10:37
Speaker 1: and nobody would notice. It's because it's great, So thank you.
10:42
Speaker 1: Tell me about your situation growing up well, Seattle, Seattle,
10:52
Speaker 1: just outside of Seattle. I started out living in the
10:56
Speaker 1: airport town outside of Seattle seatach Burian area. We moved
11:01
Speaker 1: out to a single white trailer in the middle of
11:02
Speaker 1: the country when I started fifth grade, and up until
11:07
Speaker 1: that point we were only allowed to listen to like
11:10
Speaker 1: classic country and western music. It's what my mother sang
11:14
Speaker 1: and her father and big country music family. Where were
11:18
Speaker 1: they from Oklahoma and the well they went up north,
11:23
Speaker 1: so Oklahoma. Both sides of the family were actually from Oklahoma,
11:26
Speaker 1: and some of them just migrated around, you know, the country.
11:31
Speaker 1: My great grandparents lived in an RV. They just toured
11:34
Speaker 1: around following bluegrass festivals, the really small ones, you know.
11:38
Speaker 1: So it was always a musical family. Yeah, yeah, a
11:41
Speaker 1: musical family without us really even knowing where a musical family,
11:43
Speaker 1: we thought all families or musical families. So everybody played,
11:46
Speaker 1: everybody played something or supported it in some way. And
11:50
Speaker 1: then my mother side of the family went from there
11:53
Speaker 1: to up north between Fargo and Minneapolis, plays called Wobin
11:57
Speaker 1: northern Minnesota. They started the whole it's not Southern, it's
12:00
Speaker 1: Western thing about country music and moved west and so
12:06
Speaker 1: country music was our family's thing, and I got out
12:10
Speaker 1: to the country for the first time and started to
12:14
Speaker 1: feel weird, started to feel weird and gay, and I
12:19
Speaker 1: picked up a fifth grade book report on a kid
12:23
Speaker 1: called Ryan White who died of AIDS in nineteen ninety one.
12:27
Speaker 1: He was a hemophiliac and when he was diagnosed with HIV,
12:34
Speaker 1: the church tried to politicize him and get him to
12:37
Speaker 1: speak out against gay men and imply that it was
12:41
Speaker 1: disease it was created by by gay men. And in
12:44
Speaker 1: the book he was befriended by a guy called Elton John.
12:48
Speaker 1: And I saw this book report as a departure from
12:52
Speaker 1: my family in a weird way their politics. Something was
12:57
Speaker 1: starting to become clear about my sexuality because I was
13:00
Speaker 1: eleven and this guy, Elton John, seemed really special to me.
13:04
Speaker 1: So I went to the King County Library and I
13:07
Speaker 1: checked out two CDs, Tumbleweed Connection and the one here
13:12
Speaker 1: and There that had Skyline Pigeon on it because he's
13:14
Speaker 1: sang it at this kid's funeral. And I loved that
13:16
Speaker 1: boy and wrote this big book report on him. And
13:21
Speaker 1: I checked out a biography by Philip Norman, and I
13:25
Speaker 1: got into David Bowie via Elton John, and also Queen
13:31
Speaker 1: became fascinated with Freddie Mercury George Michael, You Two and
13:35
Speaker 1: the Beatles all in this on this biography that I
13:39
Speaker 1: had read, and I started dressing different, talking different, arguing
13:44
Speaker 1: politics with my dad, and started liking a different kind
13:48
Speaker 1: of music and started standing out and becoming an artist.
13:53
Speaker 1: And it was hard. It was hard on my parents spiritually,
13:56
Speaker 1: politically was hard because we were poor and I was
13:59
Speaker 1: already weird enough at school. But that's when I started
14:05
Speaker 1: to take a turn away from just playing the spoons
14:08
Speaker 1: and singing at family jams to really wanting to be
14:11
Speaker 1: an artist. And then when did you start singing? What
14:15
Speaker 1: was your first professional experience singing? We had these auditions
14:20
Speaker 1: at this place called the Northwest Grand Ole Opry, where
14:24
Speaker 1: my mom's dad was the kind of patriarch family yodeling,
14:28
Speaker 1: very glamorous, amazing man. He'd died really young, of Luke
14:32
Speaker 1: Garret's as he's actually he was only fifty, and with
14:36
Speaker 1: the money he left, which was not much, it was
14:39
Speaker 1: just enough for my mom to buy a little PA system,
14:41
Speaker 1: and she decided to start doing music for real because
14:43
Speaker 1: he was gone and she wanted to do something to
14:44
Speaker 1: heel herself, and she started doing auditions and she took
14:50
Speaker 1: me with her to an audition at a place called
14:52
Speaker 1: the Northwest grand Ole Opry and I got to audition too,
14:56
Speaker 1: and we both made it. And the first song I
15:00
Speaker 1: sang was Tennessee Flat Top Box by Johnny Cash. Second
15:03
Speaker 1: one was San Antonio Stroll by Tenny Tucker. And I
15:07
Speaker 1: started singing on Friday and Saturday nights, rehearsals on Wednesdays.
15:11
Speaker 1: How old are you it this time? Eight? Did that
15:14
Speaker 1: till I was like thirteen or fourteen. It's also sanging
15:18
Speaker 1: bars and contests and anywhere I could sing, And I
15:21
Speaker 1: sang full time. And when I was fourteen, I started
15:25
Speaker 1: singing background vocals for an Elvis impersonator, learning how to
15:29
Speaker 1: play guitar around fifteen or sixteen, and writing songs. I
15:31
Speaker 1: started my own bands, and by the time I was twenty,
15:35
Speaker 1: I came to LA played for you. You were ready. Well,
15:41
Speaker 1: I don't think I was ready, actually, but I was.
15:43
Speaker 1: I was one of the steps for sure. Well. The
15:46
Speaker 1: fact that you did all of the fact that you
15:50
Speaker 1: played in front of audiences for so long is something
15:54
Speaker 1: so few new musicians have. Yes, you know, it's it's
16:01
Speaker 1: very few and far between the ec people who've done
16:04
Speaker 1: years of playing in front of people before we get
16:07
Speaker 1: to see them, and there's a there's an experience that comes.
16:11
Speaker 1: There's a level of expertise from that experience that you
16:15
Speaker 1: can't create any other way. By doing it, you can't
16:19
Speaker 1: get you can't get years of practice without years no
16:24
Speaker 1: And the main thing you can't get is you can't
16:27
Speaker 1: get over your tet television understanding that just because you're performing,
16:32
Speaker 1: an audience should listen to you. That's the worst part.
16:35
Speaker 1: That's the most soul destroying thing for a new artist
16:37
Speaker 1: that doesn't have busking or bar experience is that they
16:43
Speaker 1: don't understand that you actually have to earn the other
16:47
Speaker 1: person's attention and it can be really hard work. And
16:50
Speaker 1: sometimes they can be assholes, and sometimes they can be drunk,
16:52
Speaker 1: or they can be walking past you to work, and
16:54
Speaker 1: you have to figure out what it is that's going
16:56
Speaker 1: to make them stop, put down the beer for even
17:00
Speaker 1: twenty seconds, or stop where they're going and take out
17:03
Speaker 1: a buck and throw it in your guitar case. Like
17:05
Speaker 1: to any kid, anybody that's just starting out music, I
17:08
Speaker 1: so strongly recommend busking. If you can't get a gig
17:11
Speaker 1: in a bar, bust, try to figure out what it
17:14
Speaker 1: is that you do with your voice, or with your
17:16
Speaker 1: words or your body that makes someone stop. I would
17:21
Speaker 1: say that it goes for everything, even beyond music. It's
17:23
Speaker 1: like the idea that we're just naturally going to be accepted. Yeah,
17:28
Speaker 1: as great doesn't really happen, like you need to go
17:33
Speaker 1: out and prove it. Yeah, that's real life. Yeah. So
17:38
Speaker 1: what were some of the methods you would use to
17:40
Speaker 1: get people to stop and pay attention. I figured out
17:44
Speaker 1: early on that for me it was volume and dynamics.
17:49
Speaker 1: Sometimes if I couldn't get a bar to quiet down,
17:53
Speaker 1: I would stop playing my guitar and start screaming, or
17:57
Speaker 1: I would mute my guitar and start whispering. Yeah. Um,
18:02
Speaker 1: just depended on how they were reacting, you know, and
18:06
Speaker 1: I would just try and give them what I thought
18:09
Speaker 1: they needed. And it became it came with trying to
18:13
Speaker 1: learn to be a musical EmPATH, reading a room, trying
18:16
Speaker 1: to give the people what they want. And you know,
18:19
Speaker 1: as I've gotten older, I've started to understand that it's
18:21
Speaker 1: not a glitzye or a silly thing to be an entertainer.
18:25
Speaker 1: You know, It's there's artistry in it, absolutely, Yeah, It's
18:29
Speaker 1: just more of a performance it's a different kind of art,
18:32
Speaker 1: but it's it's all art. It's all it's all making
18:36
Speaker 1: something beautiful and sharing it with people. Yeah, we'll be
18:39
Speaker 1: right back with Rick and Brandy Carlyle. After the break.
18:46
Speaker 1: We're back with Rick and Brandy Carlyle. Here's Brandy singing
18:49
Speaker 1: a song from her latest album, By the Way I
18:51
Speaker 1: Forgive You. This song is called The Mother. It's about
19:00
Speaker 1: It's about my daughter, Evangeline, and it's about my path
19:05
Speaker 1: into um motherhood and how twisted and rocky bumpy it was,
19:10
Speaker 1: and how even long after she was here, I wasn't
19:13
Speaker 1: sure I made the right decision. Wow. And it's hard
19:17
Speaker 1: for people to admit that they feel that way. But
19:20
Speaker 1: I wanted to write a song about it because once
19:22
Speaker 1: I did admit it, it's like it opened me up
19:25
Speaker 1: to falling in love with her in my own time.
19:28
Speaker 1: And it's a complicated thing. Gay domesticities is a complicated
19:36
Speaker 1: and sort of new thing, and there's not a lot
19:37
Speaker 1: of pioneering books about it. So I wrote this song beautiful.
19:48
Speaker 1: Tell me about your songwriting process. Is there any would
19:55
Speaker 1: you say it follows any typical methods or different every time?
19:59
Speaker 1: It's really changed as I've gotten older, I write a
20:02
Speaker 1: lot less songs now. Sometimes it's scary. Sometimes I will
20:05
Speaker 1: write like one every two years, really, and it feels
20:07
Speaker 1: like it's going away, but it never does. And if
20:11
Speaker 1: I always just trust that it won't go away, then
20:14
Speaker 1: it comes back. Do you think it's because you're on
20:15
Speaker 1: the road so much? No, I think it's because I've
20:23
Speaker 1: I've transformed as an artist to be something other than
20:28
Speaker 1: a songwriter, than just a songwriter. It's kind of like
20:31
Speaker 1: an element of who I think I am now. But
20:34
Speaker 1: I'm just as happy to sing songs that the twins
20:36
Speaker 1: have written, particularly because we live together. You know, we
20:40
Speaker 1: all live together now on the same property, and we're
20:43
Speaker 1: married to each other's siblings, and we have babies that
20:46
Speaker 1: all go to school and meet up every morning at
20:48
Speaker 1: the same bus stop, and so much has changed in
20:50
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. But when they write a song
20:54
Speaker 1: and they and they bring it through to me, and
20:57
Speaker 1: it's about our friend taking his own life, or it's
20:59
Speaker 1: about you know, one of our dad's in rehab, I
21:03
Speaker 1: know what it's about, and it could have been written
21:06
Speaker 1: by me, And so I still get choked up and
21:08
Speaker 1: I get a lump in my throat when I'm singing,
21:10
Speaker 1: and it feels like it came from my soul because
21:11
Speaker 1: we're waking up and looking out the same windows every day.
21:14
Speaker 1: So I don't need to be writing a song really
21:16
Speaker 1: to feel moved by interpreting one. But when I do,
21:20
Speaker 1: I'm much much more spiritually open about having an influence
21:25
Speaker 1: than I was when I was younger, and it's always
21:30
Speaker 1: comes from a more honest place, which is interesting because
21:33
Speaker 1: I think because I've never had any commercial success per se,
21:38
Speaker 1: I'm not chasing it, yes, which is super healthy. Thank
21:42
Speaker 1: god it really worked out, because had something really exploded
21:50
Speaker 1: early on and then there was always this sort of
21:53
Speaker 1: trying to get back to that place, it would have
21:56
Speaker 1: undermined the whole thing. Yeah, you're right, I really feel
21:59
Speaker 1: like that. I've observed that now, and I don't want it.
22:03
Speaker 1: I've never wanted it. It's not really what I'm not
22:06
Speaker 1: cut out for that, you know. And You've had a
22:09
Speaker 1: great life doing what you do on your own terms. Yeah,
22:13
Speaker 1: you sing the songs you want to sing, You sing
22:15
Speaker 1: them the way you want to sing, exactly. And I
22:18
Speaker 1: live with my brothers, and I've got my wife, and
22:21
Speaker 1: I've got my babies and I've got all the things
22:23
Speaker 1: I want, you know, I've got a four wheeler in
22:24
Speaker 1: a fishing boat, and I'm fine. I can remember. I
22:27
Speaker 1: won't say the name of the artist, but a very
22:31
Speaker 1: well known pop star who's a big fani Ors. I
22:34
Speaker 1: don't know if you know. I don't know if you
22:36
Speaker 1: know her, but she told me she was so blown
22:39
Speaker 1: away by you, and she made music that was very
22:44
Speaker 1: manufactured pop, and it was like, I was surprised that
22:47
Speaker 1: she liked you because the music she made was so different.
22:49
Speaker 1: And she said, well, if I could do what I want,
22:52
Speaker 1: I would do what Brandy does. But I can't. I'm
22:55
Speaker 1: in this machine and I have to sing this garbage.
22:58
Speaker 1: And literally it was like, Wow, that's what I want
23:03
Speaker 1: to do. She's doing it. I don't get to do that.
23:06
Speaker 1: I just get to make these pop records. Yeah, there's
23:11
Speaker 1: a time I felt that way about her, whoever she is. Yeah,
23:15
Speaker 1: you know, if I could do what I want, I
23:16
Speaker 1: would be famous, and I would I would be rich,
23:20
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't be so tired, and I wouldn't be
23:22
Speaker 1: taking steroids and I wouldn't be living in this van,
23:25
Speaker 1: you know. But now I'm just I'm just so glad
23:29
Speaker 1: that that that that never happened to me. And it's
23:32
Speaker 1: no insult because I love a rock star like anybody
23:35
Speaker 1: else loves a rock star. God. I mean, I think
23:38
Speaker 1: fame is a beautiful thing. It's just not my thing.
23:41
Speaker 1: It's also the path that suits us often finds us.
23:47
Speaker 1: You know, we may be looking for something else, we
23:52
Speaker 1: find the path we belong on and U and it
23:55
Speaker 1: feels good, like, you know, like to some degree, it's
23:58
Speaker 1: like we're we're characters in this movie and we have
24:03
Speaker 1: ideas of what we want the next scene to be,
24:06
Speaker 1: but we don't get to control that. And do you
24:09
Speaker 1: think sometimes when we think we're manifesting it, that maybe
24:12
Speaker 1: we're just innately knowing it's ahead of us. It could be,
24:16
Speaker 1: it would be I don't know, it could be it
24:18
Speaker 1: could be one way. And whether whether it's us manifesting
24:21
Speaker 1: it or whether it's a premonition of what's to come
24:25
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Yeah, you know, either way, it's cool to
24:27
Speaker 1: have that feeling of like, oh, I feel like this
24:29
Speaker 1: is going to happen. A minute it happens. It makes
24:32
Speaker 1: the experience of living more fun, like like you get
24:35
Speaker 1: to feel like, why, wow, I'm really in this I'm
24:37
Speaker 1: in this life, yeah, and I'm open to it. Yeah.
24:43
Speaker 1: So the twists and turns. You know, it's hard sometimes
24:46
Speaker 1: when the thing that comes up is something that is
24:49
Speaker 1: really painful. That's the first thing I thought when I
24:52
Speaker 1: said that too. Yeah, Yeah, it's hard when the thing
24:54
Speaker 1: that comes up is really painful to to know. Wow,
24:59
Speaker 1: like watching it in the movie and Wow, our hero
25:02
Speaker 1: just got into trouble and that's you know, I wonder
25:04
Speaker 1: how he's going to get out of this, do you
25:06
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like like to be able to
25:08
Speaker 1: remove ourselves from the emotion in it and be trusting
25:15
Speaker 1: that the universe is on our side. Yeah. I mean
25:19
Speaker 1: the big thing for me is I just made the
25:22
Speaker 1: decision in my um very like right around the time
25:27
Speaker 1: I turned thirty, in my early thirties, to stop being
25:30
Speaker 1: in fights, you know, not to stop standing up for myself, yeah,
25:35
Speaker 1: but to stop being in fights is actually much more proactive.
25:39
Speaker 1: I don't want to say aggressive, because it's not aggressive,
25:41
Speaker 1: but it's it's much stronger to stop being in fights.
25:46
Speaker 1: Were what were some of the things that you might
25:48
Speaker 1: have fought over in the past, Oh, God, you name it. Man.
25:51
Speaker 1: I've been fighting since I was a little kid, just
25:54
Speaker 1: fighting in the schoolyard, fighting people, fighting in relationships, fighting God,
25:58
Speaker 1: fighting the church, fighting over politics, fighting over music, fighting producers.
26:05
Speaker 1: You know, every record I made ended in me falling
26:08
Speaker 1: out with the producer all every time. And what do
26:13
Speaker 1: you think the what do you think was underneath it?
26:16
Speaker 1: Poor kid work, ethic, a damage and chaos and also passion,
26:26
Speaker 1: you know, and like also a little bit of it
26:29
Speaker 1: is being gay and kind of growing up in the
26:30
Speaker 1: church and like having to fight for your actual eternity,
26:35
Speaker 1: you know, and just the dignity of showing up every
26:39
Speaker 1: day and being who you are when no one wants
26:42
Speaker 1: you to. And you take that into places that are inappropriate,
26:45
Speaker 1: but it was appropriate in those scenarios, you know. And
26:51
Speaker 1: it just took falling in love and Saturn return to
26:56
Speaker 1: kind of making rise above myself little bit and see
27:00
Speaker 1: it beautiful. So tell me how was the last album
27:05
Speaker 1: that he made different than the ones that came before it?
27:09
Speaker 1: I mean I was different. We made this album with
27:13
Speaker 1: Dave Cobb and Shooter Jennings, and Shooter Jennings is like
27:18
Speaker 1: a spirit animal person that is like in my life
27:21
Speaker 1: to just remind me not to judge people remind me
27:25
Speaker 1: not to be uptight. And Dave Cobb was a person
27:28
Speaker 1: that scared me, and I felt like his his talent
27:33
Speaker 1: was intimidating, and his audacity was intimidating, and his guileless
27:38
Speaker 1: authority was intimidating. And I had only made two made
27:42
Speaker 1: two self produced records, and I wasn't really planning on
27:46
Speaker 1: going into the studio with a with an influential producer.
27:50
Speaker 1: And I was trying to put together an album for
27:55
Speaker 1: war Child to benefit refugee kids, kids mostly from Syria
27:59
Speaker 1: and camps and I back in Jordan and I called
28:02
Speaker 1: I got Dolly Parton to do my song the story incredible.
28:07
Speaker 1: It was so cool, man. But she wanted us to
28:09
Speaker 1: record a track, and I had no idea really what
28:11
Speaker 1: to do, and I had to kind of admit my limitations.
28:14
Speaker 1: And I thought about Dave Cobb because I was getting
28:16
Speaker 1: ready to drive through Nashville, and I just knew that
28:19
Speaker 1: he had a handle on it. And so I called
28:21
Speaker 1: him up and I was like, do you have time
28:24
Speaker 1: to do this? And he's like, no, I have absolutely
28:25
Speaker 1: zero time, but I will do this in the middle
28:27
Speaker 1: of the night for you. Because my wife is a
28:30
Speaker 1: refugee and so we pulled our bus into our c
28:34
Speaker 1: studios in the middle of the night and he played
28:38
Speaker 1: Wichita Lineman in the Ghetto, and then we recorded the
28:42
Speaker 1: story for Dolly Parton. I left there totally mind blown,
28:46
Speaker 1: thinking I never wanted to work with Dave Cobb, but
28:47
Speaker 1: that I was really impressed and shoot, her and I
28:52
Speaker 1: were going to work together. And we got to talking
28:54
Speaker 1: about it and he said, I think you should give
28:58
Speaker 1: Dave a second thought. He's my brother and he loves you,
29:01
Speaker 1: and we should really think about this. So I was like,
29:03
Speaker 1: ready for a radical change in my life. The twins
29:06
Speaker 1: are ready for radical change in their lives. And we
29:10
Speaker 1: went in and everything was set up. We didn't get
29:12
Speaker 1: sounds or anything. We got lunch, sat in the corner.
29:17
Speaker 1: We listened to some records and he said, so, what
29:20
Speaker 1: do you want to play and we're like, well, we'll
29:22
Speaker 1: play you this song, you know, and we just played
29:25
Speaker 1: it for him, but he recorded and he's like, well
29:27
Speaker 1: we got our first track, and I was like, wow,
29:32
Speaker 1: this is this is different? You know, how does it
29:35
Speaker 1: even sound? I got sounds where you got here, don't
29:37
Speaker 1: worry about it. And the whole record was that way
29:40
Speaker 1: done in two weeks, bursting into tears the whole time,
29:44
Speaker 1: emotional breakdowns, dig and deep mining of the soul new
29:50
Speaker 1: way that we had never done it before, and I knew,
29:54
Speaker 1: I knew it was different. What's interesting about that is
29:57
Speaker 1: it sounds like by him taking care of the production
30:02
Speaker 1: and everything else, you got to really dive into being
30:07
Speaker 1: the artist and not having to wear multiple hats and
30:11
Speaker 1: completely be in the music. Now you're right, Yeah, now
30:16
Speaker 1: I want to do it again. Yeah, it makes sense,
30:19
Speaker 1: I understand. Yeah, there's there's also a psyche what we
30:22
Speaker 1: talked about earlier, the idea that sometimes it's helpful to
30:25
Speaker 1: have someone outside who really likes you. You know, it's
30:30
Speaker 1: really helpful. Yeah that was big. That was really big.
30:34
Speaker 1: And he just made me feel like he really liked
30:37
Speaker 1: my voice. Yeah, you know, I have been in the
30:41
Speaker 1: studio with a lot of people that didn't like my voice. Yeah.
30:44
Speaker 1: And of course there's affectation, and of course there's lots
30:48
Speaker 1: of reasons for that, but I just think that, like
30:52
Speaker 1: that's part of making music that isn't manufactured. Is that
30:56
Speaker 1: part of like growing as an artist, I think is
31:00
Speaker 1: developing and shedding affectation. Yes, you can't strip a young
31:06
Speaker 1: person at the affectation. They have to decide to shed
31:08
Speaker 1: the affectation and got it could take a long time. Yeah,
31:11
Speaker 1: you know, it took me a long time. It happens naturally,
31:14
Speaker 1: and it only it happens when it wants to happen.
31:16
Speaker 1: It's not anything can be forced. If you pull off
31:20
Speaker 1: the affectation. Before it comes off, we don't really know
31:24
Speaker 1: what's underneath. That's so true. I've never heard it said
31:29
Speaker 1: that way before, but that's exactly why you can't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
31:33
Speaker 1: it comes from the person not knowing who they are yet.
31:36
Speaker 1: So this is the the crutch or the training wheels
31:39
Speaker 1: till I get to be who I am. I'm gonna
31:42
Speaker 1: I'm going to go through this vehicle. Yeah. The last
31:45
Speaker 1: time I saw you play was with the Avid Brothers
31:49
Speaker 1: at Madison Square Garden, right, which was incredible. It was
31:54
Speaker 1: an incredible night both seeing both seeing you and them.
31:57
Speaker 1: There was a place where I used to see, you know,
32:00
Speaker 1: big concerts when I was a little kid. Was a
32:03
Speaker 1: real thrill for me. Man. I love those boys. Aren't
32:07
Speaker 1: they great? I Mean it's more than that. I just
32:11
Speaker 1: feel like we just the world just needs them in
32:14
Speaker 1: a big, big way. And I need them. And yeah,
32:18
Speaker 1: did you know Scott painted me for the cover of
32:22
Speaker 1: my album by the way, if you give you I
32:24
Speaker 1: did not, but that makes now that you say it, Yeah,
32:27
Speaker 1: it makes sense. Yeah he did. And this is how
32:32
Speaker 1: gay I am. I have such a crush on Scott.
32:35
Speaker 1: I think Scott is one of the most beautiful people
32:37
Speaker 1: I've ever met. And I went to his house by
32:40
Speaker 1: myself in North Carolina to set for him and be painted.
32:44
Speaker 1: And I had to rent my very first card I
32:47
Speaker 1: never rented a car all of myself. And I went
32:49
Speaker 1: out there and I spent the entire day with Scott
32:52
Speaker 1: inside of a box that he created out of a
32:55
Speaker 1: sheet and some cardboard, and the little light coming in
32:58
Speaker 1: at the top, and he was like this close to
33:00
Speaker 1: my face all day, and I was thinking, I feel
33:04
Speaker 1: nothing around this gorgeous specimen, a specimen of a man.
33:08
Speaker 1: Like this is how gay I actually, because he's so handsome,
33:12
Speaker 1: and I was so nervous to be like he's of
33:15
Speaker 1: course married father, I'm married and a mother, but I
33:18
Speaker 1: just love him. But he's one of those people where
33:20
Speaker 1: he is as beautiful of a person as he is
33:24
Speaker 1: to look at, like he's just more more beautiful because
33:27
Speaker 1: of exactly that. Yeah, it's we see him beautiful because
33:32
Speaker 1: it's his soul shining through. You're exactly right. Yeah, and
33:35
Speaker 1: Seth is the same way. Amazing, amazing fellas and their
33:38
Speaker 1: parents and their wives and their kids. It's all the
33:41
Speaker 1: same thing. There's a big love light shining out in
33:43
Speaker 1: North Carolina because of them. Yeah. I always feel like
33:47
Speaker 1: any chance I get to be around them improves my life. Yeah,
33:50
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely. A friend of mine made the documentary May
33:58
Speaker 1: at Last, Jed Appatow. Yeah, a lot of it here,
34:01
Speaker 1: a lot of it here. And he's a he works
34:05
Speaker 1: in comedy, and most of the people that we know
34:08
Speaker 1: in the comedy world tend to be dysfunctional. It's the
34:10
Speaker 1: nature of the reason you find yourself in comedy comes
34:14
Speaker 1: out of dysfunction. And I was laughing with Judge because
34:18
Speaker 1: he was saying what a great experience it was making
34:20
Speaker 1: this and how great it was to be around those people,
34:22
Speaker 1: And I said, you know, most of the people we
34:24
Speaker 1: know are insane. This is what like, we don't know
34:28
Speaker 1: any like nice people. They are the only nice people
34:32
Speaker 1: I know. That's what it feels here. It's like there,
34:36
Speaker 1: you can't believe that anyone is like this, Yeah, but
34:39
Speaker 1: they are. It's real. Yeah. And you keep thinking you're
34:43
Speaker 1: waiting for the road to get pulled. You're like, when
34:44
Speaker 1: I turn my back, you're gonna do something weird. But
34:47
Speaker 1: they don't know. No, it's an incredible family. I don't
34:51
Speaker 1: know how it happened. I remember I asked their dad
34:54
Speaker 1: when I met their dad the first time, I said,
34:56
Speaker 1: how did what did you do for these people to
35:00
Speaker 1: exist like this in the world? And he said, I
35:04
Speaker 1: back him. I back him no matter what. I back him.
35:09
Speaker 1: If somebody came and told me that one of the
35:11
Speaker 1: boys killed somebody, I would say, I guess somebody needed
35:15
Speaker 1: some killing. That is profound. Yeah, that's some parenting advice
35:22
Speaker 1: right there. Unconditional love. Wow. We'll be right back with
35:27
Speaker 1: the rest of Rick's interview with Brandy Carlisle. We're back
35:35
Speaker 1: with Brandy Carlisle. The night before this interview, Brandy performed
35:39
Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell's classic album Blue and Its Entirety at LA's
35:42
Speaker 1: Disney Concert Hall. She talked to Rick about how she
35:45
Speaker 1: first discovered Joni Mitchell's music. I was really late to
35:49
Speaker 1: the game on Joni Mitchell, and there's a whole thing
35:52
Speaker 1: about it that I won't go into. But when I did,
35:54
Speaker 1: like Deep Dive, I made up for lost time in
35:58
Speaker 1: a really big way. And I became upset with the
36:00
Speaker 1: album Blue. I learned the entire thing. It was like
36:03
Speaker 1: my life. And then I got into Court and Spark.
36:07
Speaker 1: So eight and a half, almost nine years ago, skipped
36:11
Speaker 1: over for the Roses, went straight to Courton Spark, and
36:14
Speaker 1: then went back to Song for Siegel, all the way
36:19
Speaker 1: into Ladies of the Canyon, Blue for the Roses, Courton Spark,
36:24
Speaker 1: Kissing of Summer Line, says Gyri, which is now my
36:26
Speaker 1: favorite Joni Mitchell album, all the way up to Shine.
36:29
Speaker 1: So her seventy fifth birthday party, which is almost a
36:32
Speaker 1: year ago to the day, they asked a lot of
36:35
Speaker 1: really cool people to come and tribute her by singing songs.
36:38
Speaker 1: And I wanted to do it so bad. I begged
36:40
Speaker 1: and begged and begged, and they wouldn't let me do it,
36:42
Speaker 1: and they told me no, and it was full, and
36:44
Speaker 1: I just kept writing letters, and I kept digging to
36:47
Speaker 1: find out other people that were connected to it, and
36:49
Speaker 1: then writing them letters. And you know, Mom and Dad
36:51
Speaker 1: said no. So I was asking all the aunties and
36:53
Speaker 1: uncles and basically because Chris Christofferson got asked to do
36:59
Speaker 1: a case of you. And I've been helping Chris a
37:01
Speaker 1: little bit on stage with his memory and his ability
37:05
Speaker 1: to kind of deliver a live performance that's not his own,
37:09
Speaker 1: like his own lyrics. He can do it with a teleprompter,
37:11
Speaker 1: but outside of that he struggles with simple things like
37:15
Speaker 1: microphone placement, plugging in his guitar and stuff. So I've
37:17
Speaker 1: been kind of, like his wife says, like she can
37:20
Speaker 1: help him to the edge of the stage, but after that,
37:23
Speaker 1: you know. So I stepped in a bunch of times
37:25
Speaker 1: to be with Chris because he's still so special. And
37:29
Speaker 1: so he got asked to do a case of you,
37:30
Speaker 1: so I was able to help him do that, and
37:33
Speaker 1: then they gave me down to you from Court and Spark.
37:36
Speaker 1: So I did it and I found it really transformative.
37:40
Speaker 1: And I brought this picture to have signed by Jonie
37:45
Speaker 1: and it was my wife, Katherine's, like her one job
37:48
Speaker 1: to get it signed, and she didn't do it. She
37:51
Speaker 1: was a PA for Paul McCartney for like ten years,
37:53
Speaker 1: so she's good at reading a room. You know. She
37:56
Speaker 1: just knew it wasn't appropriate. But I was so moved
38:00
Speaker 1: by the night. I said, I'm going to cover the
38:02
Speaker 1: entire Joni Mitchell Blue album at Disney Hall in La
38:07
Speaker 1: a year from now. And she said all right, and
38:11
Speaker 1: she called Jonie's assistant and she said, we'll kind of
38:14
Speaker 1: get this picture signed for Brandy for Christmas is a surprise.
38:18
Speaker 1: And they said, yeah, I'm bringing by the house and
38:21
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, come on up and we'll get
38:24
Speaker 1: we'll get it signed. And so Katherine went by the house,
38:27
Speaker 1: but Joonie invited her in and wound up sitting at
38:31
Speaker 1: the table with her and having a long talk about
38:33
Speaker 1: nature in Canada and they had they kind of had
38:36
Speaker 1: a friendship thing, and Jonie said, well, you know, anytime
38:40
Speaker 1: you're you and your wife want to get together and
38:42
Speaker 1: grab it bye to eat, you know we can't. And
38:45
Speaker 1: after the Grammys, Jonie reached out and she took me
38:49
Speaker 1: outs dinner and Katherine and we had this amazing dinner.
38:54
Speaker 1: She ordered all of our food for us. It was
38:56
Speaker 1: like really special and she said at the end of that,
39:00
Speaker 1: she didn't say much, but at the end of it
39:01
Speaker 1: she said, you know, I don't do music anymore. And
39:04
Speaker 1: before you start feeling sorry for me and getting weird
39:07
Speaker 1: about it. I'm a painter. I'm not sad, but it
39:10
Speaker 1: does bother me that I have these instruments setting around
39:13
Speaker 1: that are so beautiful and no one plays them. So
39:16
Speaker 1: if you want to get a few young people together,
39:18
Speaker 1: some people together, you want to come over my house
39:19
Speaker 1: and play some music one night, let's do a jam.
39:23
Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, so we did. The
39:28
Speaker 1: very first night, me and Hosier went over to Joonie's
39:33
Speaker 1: house and we had dinner. It was like Mexican food,
39:38
Speaker 1: sat outside and Joanie, like annadvertently tells the stories of
39:43
Speaker 1: her songs without telling us. She's telling the stories of
39:45
Speaker 1: her songs. So if you know Jony, you know the story.
39:48
Speaker 1: And it's really amazing. You know, She's talk about some
39:51
Speaker 1: turbulent flight she was sawing, and I was like, man,
39:53
Speaker 1: turn this bird around, and you know, like what she's
39:57
Speaker 1: talking about. If you know Blue, you know. So that
40:00
Speaker 1: was fascinating part of the night. And then we kind
40:03
Speaker 1: of migrated into the living room around some instruments and
40:06
Speaker 1: I played a song. I played a song of mine
40:08
Speaker 1: called Cannonball, and then Andrew Hosier played a song and
40:13
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of these songs and like apropos
40:16
Speaker 1: of nothing. Shaka Khan walks in, and Joanie always has
40:21
Speaker 1: a plan, that's the thing about her. She wanted to,
40:25
Speaker 1: you know, surprise us and throw us for a loop
40:27
Speaker 1: and show us how it was done. So she invited
40:31
Speaker 1: some people we didn't know about. So Shaka Khan walks in.
40:34
Speaker 1: She starts throwing a fourth part at harmony on top
40:37
Speaker 1: of the Crosbie stills a Nash song I was singing,
40:39
Speaker 1: and middle of that one, Herbie Hancock walks in and
40:43
Speaker 1: he sits down at a piano and we are just hyperventilating,
40:46
Speaker 1: Me and Andrew beside ourselves, and the twins and my
40:51
Speaker 1: wife and Joni's got this big, knowing, mischievous grin on
40:54
Speaker 1: her face. And Herbie starts hovering on a chord, you know,
40:58
Speaker 1: and he's like, what are the kids? And do you
41:00
Speaker 1: know how are we gonna how are we gonna do
41:03
Speaker 1: this jam? We don't know what he's doing. It's just
41:05
Speaker 1: really diminished and there's all these things happening, and he's playing,
41:08
Speaker 1: and everybody gets real quiet because we didn't know what
41:10
Speaker 1: was going to happen. And out of the middle of
41:13
Speaker 1: the room we hear summertime and the living is easy.
41:19
Speaker 1: And it's Joni who's just opened her mouth and saying
41:23
Speaker 1: for the first time since her aneurysm seven years ago.
41:27
Speaker 1: Herbie burst into tears. Everybody burst into tears, and Joni
41:31
Speaker 1: sat there grinning that mischievous grin, and Shaka goes, the
41:36
Speaker 1: fish are jumping in the cotton is high, and Joy goes,
41:38
Speaker 1: the fish are jumping and the cotton is high. And
41:44
Speaker 1: the next thing you know, Jonny's singing again. And she
41:47
Speaker 1: sang for an hour and didn't stop. And so we've
41:51
Speaker 1: been going over there and jamming and Joni's been singing,
41:55
Speaker 1: and that's that's how it goes. So beautiful. You growing up,
42:00
Speaker 1: you didn't listen to Joni. What was the what happened
42:04
Speaker 1: that got you into it? Well, Tibo and Burnette played
42:08
Speaker 1: Blue for me when I was making the story, so
42:14
Speaker 1: that would have been two thousand and five, two thousand
42:17
Speaker 1: and six, and her voice was so high and she
42:22
Speaker 1: got to the line that said, um, I want to
42:24
Speaker 1: renew you, I want to shampoo you, and I hated it.
42:26
Speaker 1: It was so heterosexual and submissive. It just bothered me.
42:30
Speaker 1: It was like, oh, this is this is not tough,
42:34
Speaker 1: this is some other thing. This is feminine, and and
42:37
Speaker 1: I wrote it off. And then all these years later,
42:41
Speaker 1: I met my wife and we we were holed up
42:44
Speaker 1: in a cabin together in northern Michigan and listening to music,
42:48
Speaker 1: and she brought Damien Rice and she brought Blue and
42:53
Speaker 1: she put on Blue and I laughed and I said,
42:54
Speaker 1: you always, I don't even really like Jony Mix. She
42:56
Speaker 1: actually and she got like deadly silent, and she was like,
43:01
Speaker 1: I don't actually know you like I thought I did.
43:05
Speaker 1: If you can't get your head around Joni Mitchell. And
43:08
Speaker 1: I was like, well, it's just that I like tough
43:10
Speaker 1: singers and she's just not tough, and I hate the lyric.
43:14
Speaker 1: I want to renew you, I want to shampoo you.
43:17
Speaker 1: And she goes, really, she's not tough, like because she
43:19
Speaker 1: sounds like a feminine woman. And I was like, well,
43:22
Speaker 1: it's a lot more than that, and she goes, do
43:24
Speaker 1: you know what little Green is about? And I said no,
43:27
Speaker 1: and she told me and she put on little Green
43:29
Speaker 1: and I broke down. I just completely broke down. And
43:32
Speaker 1: it changed not just the way I looked at Joni Mitchell,
43:37
Speaker 1: but the way I looked at women and femininity and
43:41
Speaker 1: toughness and how intertwined they really are. And so it
43:47
Speaker 1: put me in touch with my femininity in a new way.
43:50
Speaker 1: And so when I dove into Jonie, I did a
43:52
Speaker 1: deep dive because I realized that I wasn't just fundamentally
43:56
Speaker 1: wrong about Joni Mitchell. I was fundamentally wrong about what
44:00
Speaker 1: I thought it meant to be. Tough, beautiful story. It's
44:06
Speaker 1: amazing how small revelations can change our perception in great
44:15
Speaker 1: ways that you wouldn't expect. You wouldn't expect you not
44:20
Speaker 1: liking a lyric in a song to frame the way
44:25
Speaker 1: you see the world, and just through that one breaking
44:30
Speaker 1: through that one change opened up you open up yourself
44:34
Speaker 1: to a whole different way of seeing the world in
44:36
Speaker 1: myself and it really did amazing. Yeah, I'll never be
44:40
Speaker 1: the same writer after that either. Beautiful cool. Thanks for
44:44
Speaker 1: coming all right, Coop. Thank you to Brandy Carlyle for
44:50
Speaker 1: stopping buy Shanghala I'm playing for Rick. Her latest album
44:53
Speaker 1: with the Grammy Award winning By the Way I Forgive
44:56
Speaker 1: You is out now. You should to check it out
44:59
Speaker 1: along with the rest of our favorite Brandy songs at
45:01
Speaker 1: broken record podcast dot com. Broken Record is produced with
45:05
Speaker 1: help from Jason Gambrell, Mi La Belle, Leah Rose, Matt Laboza,
45:09
Speaker 1: and Martin Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. Our theme musics by
45:13
Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.