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Book Club: Wake · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane
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Speaker 1: Never Told Your Protection of iHeartRadio, and welcome to another
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Speaker 1: edition of a book Club. Content warning before we get
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Speaker 1: into this one, we are going to be talking about
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Speaker 1: intergenerational racial trauma, slavery, death, sexual assaults. They're all like
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Speaker 1: heavy topics, so it's not that we're going to get
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Speaker 1: into them too much, but they're like still really heavy topic, right,
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Speaker 1: So take care of yourself, do what you need to do.
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Speaker 1: Today we are discussing the beautifully illustrated and written graphic
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Speaker 1: novel and memoir Wake The Hidden History of Women led
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Speaker 1: Slave Revolts, written by doctor Rebecca Hall and illustrated by
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Speaker 1: Hugo Martinez, and it depicts the difficult journey doctor Hall,
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Speaker 1: a former attorney and part time teacher an historian, embarked
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Speaker 1: upon to dig up the lost and rased histories of
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Speaker 1: slave revolts in the US led by black enslaved women.
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Speaker 1: It primarily focuses on revolts near New York, although there's
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Speaker 1: a bunch of other things going on as well. A
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Speaker 1: New York constructor Hall's hometown, so she was curious about it.
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Speaker 1: Are also slave revolts on ships, and it is interwoven
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Speaker 1: with how systemic racism that this country was built upon
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Speaker 1: obstructed her research all along the way, and how it
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Speaker 1: impacts her daily life personally and professionally, especially given that
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Speaker 1: her paternal grandparents were both born enslaved, And just as
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Speaker 1: she interacts with the lives of people she's teaching or
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Speaker 1: has taught, she delves into court documents, the logs of
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Speaker 1: ships carrying enslaved people, old letters, forensic evidence from bones,
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Speaker 1: and so many other things to track down these rased stories.
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Speaker 1: And it's a really, really great depiction of this struggle
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Speaker 1: of a researcher and her storian to find these stories.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Hall is an activist, educator, and scholar. She has
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Speaker 1: a history serving as an attorney, yes for low income
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Speaker 1: tenants and those without homes. She is a writer and
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Speaker 1: a publisher, especially on topics of race and gender. And
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Speaker 1: the tag gun is the past is gone, but we
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Speaker 1: still live in its wake. And the title actually works
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Speaker 1: on a bunch of different levels, which is cool. The
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Speaker 1: art is very, very striking. It's beautifully done in shades
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Speaker 1: of black. It's just it's kind of hard to describe,
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Speaker 1: but just very very good. It's very beautiful and just
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Speaker 1: draws you in. Right. If you actually go and follow
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Speaker 1: doctor Rebecca Hall's Twitter, you can see examples from Hugo
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Speaker 1: Martinez's drawing and you'll see what it could be like.
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Speaker 1: I think she does have some excerpts in her Twitter
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Speaker 1: because the whole other thing Twitter try to suppress her
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Speaker 1: book as well, and it did the opposite, which is
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Speaker 1: amazing and I'm glad for because that's how we found it.
3:00
Speaker 1: But yeah, if he wanted to see an example without
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Speaker 1: buying the book, you should buy the book. But it
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Speaker 1: is an amazing depiction, and he does an amazing job
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Speaker 1: in really showing the depth and the strength within these
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Speaker 1: horrific conversations and tails, and he does it in a
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Speaker 1: way that's not sadistic. I guess is the best word,
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Speaker 1: which can happen pretty quickly in a story like that,
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Speaker 1: which is honest and true. He really makes sure to
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Speaker 1: exemplify the strengths of the enslaved people rather than showing
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Speaker 1: like the disgusting disasters and all of the horrifying acts
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Speaker 1: or horrifying things of what's happening against them, of abuse
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Speaker 1: and the assaulted murder that is talked about, rather than
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Speaker 1: anything else but yeah, it's a really great illustration, and
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Speaker 1: I think he does a great job in making sure
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Speaker 1: that what her words, her profound words, and her words
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Speaker 1: of a lot of depth and feeling that it's translated
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Speaker 1: on these pages. Yeah, and it was interesting. I read
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Speaker 1: a bunch of like interviews and articles about it and
4:02
Speaker 1: about how this was a difficult project for a lot
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Speaker 1: of reasons, but one of them is, you know, how
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Speaker 1: do you capture kind of the pain of like being
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Speaker 1: this researcher and going through this and it's not like
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Speaker 1: a typical quote like graphic novel type thing, Like it's
4:18
Speaker 1: you know, you go to a library and you're doing
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Speaker 1: this research and things like that. So it was very,
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Speaker 1: very interesting, but yeah, okay, very Basically, the plot follows
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Speaker 1: doctor Hall's decision to dig into justice and the history
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Speaker 1: of black women and deciding to pursue all the stories
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Speaker 1: she could find about black women led slave revolts, and
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Speaker 1: it begins with her working as an attorney, questioning what
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Speaker 1: justice means in systems that are inherently racist and sexist,
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Speaker 1: kind of seeing it play out over and over again.
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Speaker 1: So she decides to work on a dissertation of women
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Speaker 1: led slave results, particularly in nearby New York. But in
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Speaker 1: search of documentation and evidence, she keeps running into scraps
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Speaker 1: and dead ends, and she is determined to tell all
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Speaker 1: these hidden stories and is relentless. But this is all
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Speaker 1: happening while she is dealing with the fallout of slavery
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Speaker 1: and racism in doing this research, whether it's officials barring
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Speaker 1: her from accessing records for BS reasons, or confronting the
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Speaker 1: legacy of enslavement and racism in terms of her students
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Speaker 1: and her child, her own family, all of those things.
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Speaker 1: So definitely check it out. It's a it's not a
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Speaker 1: long read. I won't say it's like easy read, because
5:28
Speaker 1: obviously it's very painful material, but it's like so powerful
5:35
Speaker 1: and you should read it right, So we can say
5:38
Speaker 1: it it's a short ready, but it doesn't have to
5:41
Speaker 1: be if you're really focusing on the arts and the
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Speaker 1: graphics that bring out the story. As a plus, I
5:48
Speaker 1: did listen to the audio version mistakenly thinking that that
5:51
Speaker 1: was the actual book, but it's in a fantastic add on.
5:55
Speaker 1: I believe they describe it it's the extended story, as
5:58
Speaker 1: the story of the story as really about how it
6:01
Speaker 1: came out and it's a full cast and it has
6:03
Speaker 1: a lot of it's it's a full live cast, reading
6:07
Speaker 1: as if you're there, and it's a play. You know,
6:09
Speaker 1: we've done this often a fiction fiction type of audio,
6:13
Speaker 1: and he does it with her fiction of the month,
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Speaker 1: But this is not exactly fiction. It is her adventure
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Speaker 1: in getting these So we don't see the results necessarily
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Speaker 1: of what we see here some of the things that
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Speaker 1: she was able to find finally, But what we do
6:30
Speaker 1: is hear her struggle in her her journey into getting
6:34
Speaker 1: to this point and releasing and writing this novel. So
6:37
Speaker 1: it's a fantastic hearing. If you get a chance to
6:39
Speaker 1: listen to it, you really really really really should because
6:42
Speaker 1: it's a whole different experience for the same theme and
6:46
Speaker 1: wonderful take that she has placed on it. Wait acting
6:50
Speaker 1: because apparently they wanted like they're nominated for and I'm
6:53
Speaker 1: gonna call it Audie Awards A U. D I E.
6:56
Speaker 1: S Well, they're a finalist for the Audience twenty twenty
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Speaker 1: three award. It's a very cool. It's definitely well worth
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Speaker 1: the listen. It's nothing else to hear. What she went
7:04
Speaker 1: through is amazing, m and it's kind of you know,
7:08
Speaker 1: I gave the like plot rundown. It's kind of hard
7:10
Speaker 1: to describe though, but essentially you're kind of you're getting
7:12
Speaker 1: her version of like her researching these stories, and then
7:16
Speaker 1: we get snippets of those stories, so it's sort of
7:20
Speaker 1: juxtaposed against each other. So some themes I would say,
7:38
Speaker 1: like at the beginning, you know, you see her working
7:41
Speaker 1: as an attorney and having this question of like what
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Speaker 1: is justice in this white supremacist, sexist, racist society when
7:48
Speaker 1: she's seeing like these outcomes over and over again, and
7:51
Speaker 1: as I said, like she was an attorney for like
7:55
Speaker 1: low income tenants, and so she's just kind of seeing
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Speaker 1: this over and over, kind of hearing this really racist
8:02
Speaker 1: you know, advice of like well you have to kind
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Speaker 1: of behave in a certain ways so they don't think
8:07
Speaker 1: you're the angry black woman in court and all of
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Speaker 1: those things, and having a lot of questions like well
8:16
Speaker 1: what does this mean? Right? I think it's very interesting,
8:19
Speaker 1: and I know there's something that I really touched in
8:23
Speaker 1: with her. She was talking about the fact that yes,
8:25
Speaker 1: immediately they didn't assume that she was a lawyer, that
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Speaker 1: she was one of the plaintiffs or the defendants, and
8:30
Speaker 1: having to be like, I'm the representative, they are pleased,
8:32
Speaker 1: let me buy, having to prove herself as the educated
8:36
Speaker 1: person who with the law degree, unlike many of the
8:41
Speaker 1: clerks or any of them in there, or the deputies,
8:45
Speaker 1: but then also having to give advice and seeing the
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Speaker 1: bias within course. And I've talked about those many times
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Speaker 1: on Mike about my own experiences being in the courtroom
8:55
Speaker 1: and talking to children and talking to about who they
8:57
Speaker 1: were and how things will play out. And she talked
9:00
Speaker 1: to one black woman who is one of her clients,
9:03
Speaker 1: but she also has a white woman that lived in
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Speaker 1: the same building and had the same lawsuit. The white
9:09
Speaker 1: woman got all this money and a black plaintiff. In
9:12
Speaker 1: the audio, so I'm gonna say this in the audio,
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Speaker 1: the black woman was like, I feel like this is
9:17
Speaker 1: good for me, this is amazing, Like they've already said
9:20
Speaker 1: a precedent. And she's like, well, if you want to
9:21
Speaker 1: get what she got, you're gonna have to do exactly
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Speaker 1: what she did, which is the white woman tears, pronouncing everything,
9:27
Speaker 1: unusually being very quiet and polite in all these things. Well,
9:31
Speaker 1: she probably would have been already, but like making it
9:33
Speaker 1: be like be white though, and when she when the
9:37
Speaker 1: woman came to in front of this, she got half
9:39
Speaker 1: the amount that the white woman did. And that's how
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Speaker 1: it goes. And then having the regret of telling this
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Speaker 1: woman her client be white, be more white, be this,
9:48
Speaker 1: because this is how the justice system works. And I've
9:51
Speaker 1: had this moment where I've told young black kids, Hey,
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Speaker 1: I hate to tell you this, and this is gonna
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Speaker 1: be the gods on his truth. And I don't want hate.
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Speaker 1: I don't look at this, but because this system is
10:00
Speaker 1: already set up to have you fail, they have already
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Speaker 1: had bias against you. It doesn't matter before you walked in,
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Speaker 1: whether it's for whatever want not this specific group of people.
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Speaker 1: And there were specific people that I would have to
10:13
Speaker 1: look out for for certain types of lawyers, certain types
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Speaker 1: of judges, and who was going to do what and
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Speaker 1: who had the racial bias and trying to teach the
10:19
Speaker 1: kid to play the game instead of trying to change
10:22
Speaker 1: the system. And I know that's kind of the beginning
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Speaker 1: of why she starts really going into teaching and then
10:27
Speaker 1: really going into research. And I hate that too, that
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Speaker 1: I hate that I was a part of that. And
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Speaker 1: it's a non black person. It's even worse coming from me,
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Speaker 1: and I hate that I was a part of that system,
10:35
Speaker 1: but doing what I could do at that moment. And
10:39
Speaker 1: she talks about that, having that guilt and playing into
10:43
Speaker 1: the system and then coming out of it and trying
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Speaker 1: to break that system. And then, of course this is
10:47
Speaker 1: a whole different conversation, but it hit me real hard
10:50
Speaker 1: when she was talking about this and knowing exactly what
10:53
Speaker 1: she meant. And of course I feel like my guilt
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Speaker 1: is definitely different and my result was different, and that
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Speaker 1: in the seeing that at how ugly a gross it
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Speaker 1: really is. Yeah, Yeah, And we do see doctor Hall
11:08
Speaker 1: kind of grappling with that throughout it, even in her
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Speaker 1: teaching and her research all that stuff. And so she's
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Speaker 1: seeing this as an attorney, decides to get her dissertation,
11:20
Speaker 1: decides to focus on slave revolts led by black women,
11:26
Speaker 1: and there's a quote in there about kind of being
11:30
Speaker 1: haunted by the legacy of slavery. Quote, sometimes when you
11:34
Speaker 1: think you're hunting down the past, the past is hunting you.
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Speaker 1: I was born to tell the stories. So she does
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Speaker 1: describe that. She does describe this feeling of like I
11:43
Speaker 1: need to find these stories that have been erased and
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Speaker 1: I need to tell them and they are a part
11:50
Speaker 1: of my life and my history and the history that's
11:53
Speaker 1: shaping all of this. And it, like I said, it
11:58
Speaker 1: is a really really excellent depiction of what it's like
12:00
Speaker 1: doing historical research. This is like, you know, we've researched
12:05
Speaker 1: for this show, but nowhere near this level. Right, So
12:07
Speaker 1: this is from articles I've read from historians about it,
12:11
Speaker 1: saying that this is a very excellent depiction of what
12:15
Speaker 1: it's like to do historical research. And that did set
12:19
Speaker 1: apart from most graphic novels. Like I said, it was
12:22
Speaker 1: kind of a new take on this idea, and that's
12:25
Speaker 1: one of the reasons she talks about, which she also
12:28
Speaker 1: at the back of the at least the copy I had,
12:30
Speaker 1: there was a Q and A with her and she
12:32
Speaker 1: was describing why she decided to do a graphic novel,
12:36
Speaker 1: and that was one of the reasons, was like, this
12:38
Speaker 1: will be a new way to really showcase illustrate what
12:43
Speaker 1: it's like to be a historian doing this stuff, right,
12:47
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the limited amount and we're
12:49
Speaker 1: going to talk more about this, especially when it comes
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Speaker 1: to the limited amount of information, the amount of information
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Speaker 1: that was a race and the amount of information people
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Speaker 1: want to hide, like the like the odds are stacked
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Speaker 1: against her for so many reasons, and her traveling all
13:03
Speaker 1: over the world she really does trying to get this
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Speaker 1: and hunt down this information. Uh sounds exhausting but inspiring.
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Speaker 1: Real exhausting, exhausting. Yes, honestly, I was like, this feels like, um,
13:16
Speaker 1: I do love those scenes in movies where they're doing
13:18
Speaker 1: the montage and they're like, I gotta go here, I
13:20
Speaker 1: gotta go here, I gotta go here. It was like that, like,
13:23
Speaker 1: I feel like they should make a show about how
13:24
Speaker 1: she did this. Yeah, she's done the audio and it's
13:28
Speaker 1: time for a show. Now, I agree, I agree, But yeah,
13:33
Speaker 1: it's it showcases like the traveling of information, because this
13:39
Speaker 1: is she's looking at you know, before the internet obviously,
13:42
Speaker 1: but so like on boats or like where did this
13:44
Speaker 1: information end up after it was on this boat? The
13:47
Speaker 1: thought process of like, well, this piece of information is missing,
13:50
Speaker 1: where could it be? Like all of those things, um,
13:54
Speaker 1: and then yeah, this real pain and frustration of the
13:56
Speaker 1: research of finding something like a total dead end or
13:59
Speaker 1: something completely erased and like you'll never know, you'll never
14:04
Speaker 1: know what happened. So it was it excellently depicted that.
14:10
Speaker 1: And then there was also just the obviously like the
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Speaker 1: history of slavery and seeing the aftermath of slavery everywhere,
14:18
Speaker 1: and that goes back to yes, this pain of the
14:21
Speaker 1: loss of history, of a rasure of the question of
14:24
Speaker 1: what gets recorded. And so for instance, like one of
14:27
Speaker 1: the first things she does is she finds like these names,
14:31
Speaker 1: and she finds very brief snippets about them, is trying
14:35
Speaker 1: to piece together their story, and then in the end
14:40
Speaker 1: it's just a race. Then she can't find it. And
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Speaker 1: the quote, here's a quote, I can't find her. I'll
14:46
Speaker 1: never know what happened to Sarah or Abigail, right, and
14:50
Speaker 1: this one specifically to a revolt that happened on the
14:54
Speaker 1: state grounds, because we do talk a lot more about
14:57
Speaker 1: ships and the travel when they're see but in the
15:02
Speaker 1: transatlantic slave trade, but where they were talking specifically about
15:06
Speaker 1: a couple of herbles that have happened where they did
15:10
Speaker 1: sentence people to death in slave people's to death and
15:14
Speaker 1: or jailed, and this conversation about how it got lost
15:17
Speaker 1: and she was trying to find out what happened to
15:19
Speaker 1: these women who were the ones because they just became
15:21
Speaker 1: numbers essentially, and the pain of them just being numbered
15:24
Speaker 1: and being property in itself is horrendous. And also knowing
15:28
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about this is like her family,
15:29
Speaker 1: immediate family members essentially had experienced something to this and
15:33
Speaker 1: that that was not too far from her generationally, But
15:36
Speaker 1: like in the conversation that she was trying to discover
15:39
Speaker 1: who did this, who was this? Who who did this?
15:42
Speaker 1: And having a few names to the many that died,
15:45
Speaker 1: and then not even having the correct names and not
15:47
Speaker 1: even being able to like finding some information just enough
15:51
Speaker 1: that you know partially what happened, but not the ending
15:54
Speaker 1: and the trauma of not being able to have resolved
15:57
Speaker 1: in something that heartbreaking and something that is so triggering
16:01
Speaker 1: in itself that that she had to go on this
16:03
Speaker 1: journey without any resolution, right. And that's another thing that
16:08
Speaker 1: I thought this book did an excellent job at is
16:10
Speaker 1: really showing the physical impact of researching something so horrendous,
16:15
Speaker 1: of researching something that directly impacts you, that is in
16:19
Speaker 1: your family, of like she experiences nausea, She just talks
16:25
Speaker 1: about like pain in her body and being so exhausted
16:29
Speaker 1: and her mental health and having these questions and like
16:32
Speaker 1: these physical things that are happening to her because of
16:37
Speaker 1: this research she is doing, which I think is really
16:40
Speaker 1: important to recognize. And then there's also several instances of
16:48
Speaker 1: her trying to do this research very like legitimately doing
16:52
Speaker 1: nothing wrong, but these white officials blocking access to documents.
16:58
Speaker 1: So we see it in the United States when I
17:01
Speaker 1: believe it's like an archive she's trying to go to
17:05
Speaker 1: and they're like, no, no, no, you didn't go through
17:07
Speaker 1: the right procedures. We can't let you in. And she's like,
17:09
Speaker 1: but I kind of did, and also have a flatland.
17:12
Speaker 1: They're like no, no, no, no way. And then she
17:15
Speaker 1: does travel to the United Kingdom and it's like, you know,
17:21
Speaker 1: trying to get some documents from museum, and the officials,
17:26
Speaker 1: the white officials, they're very like, oh no, we don't
17:28
Speaker 1: have any. We were good at abolition, don't you remember,
17:31
Speaker 1: very very defensive. And then she goes to visit Lloyd's
17:36
Speaker 1: of London and try to get their archives. And Lloyd's
17:39
Speaker 1: of Blunton got started insuring slave ships and still around right,
17:45
Speaker 1: and you know, just they just flat out refused, and
17:51
Speaker 1: she told them what she was doing, and here's why
17:54
Speaker 1: all this, like it's totally legitimate, They had no reason
17:59
Speaker 1: not to let her get that information that they absolutely refuse.
18:03
Speaker 1: So this is another thing she's constantly fighting with to
18:07
Speaker 1: get to these stories, of which many of them she
18:09
Speaker 1: might finally get that information, and it's just not there
18:12
Speaker 1: right And that's I think that's part of the reason,
18:14
Speaker 1: and I know she talks about this, is that the
18:16
Speaker 1: focus is partially on her trying to get this research
18:19
Speaker 1: is because of the way she was railroaded, essentially by
18:23
Speaker 1: white people who may even claim to be allies. Like
18:26
Speaker 1: she talks about how again she comes to the UK
18:28
Speaker 1: and she's like, everybody's so nice in comparison to what
18:31
Speaker 1: happened in the US, but the black community in the
18:34
Speaker 1: UK or like they're just being nice to you because
18:37
Speaker 1: you know you're they're trying to play nice while you're here,
18:40
Speaker 1: because you're a visitor essentially, and that it is not
18:44
Speaker 1: that wonderful as they would want it to be, and
18:46
Speaker 1: it make it seem and we've talked about bad the
18:48
Speaker 1: different biases that happen in different areas and regions, and
18:51
Speaker 1: just because it seems nice doesn't mean that's the truth
18:53
Speaker 1: of it all. Just because there may not be a
18:55
Speaker 1: focus on some of the things that happen in other
18:57
Speaker 1: places doesn't mean that discrimination and race isn't there. But
19:01
Speaker 1: I really do think it's interesting that we talk about
19:03
Speaker 1: people who make money, which insurance companies have definitely been
19:06
Speaker 1: reamed over the cold as they should be continuously, because
19:09
Speaker 1: it is an ugly, ugly trade in business, and it's
19:11
Speaker 1: fairly racist and discriminatory today. So knowing that that they're
19:15
Speaker 1: trying to hide some of that history that absolutely was
19:18
Speaker 1: making money off of the backs of enslaved people and
19:21
Speaker 1: their deaths and their demise and their murder, all of that,
19:25
Speaker 1: and their profiting and the white people who profited off
19:29
Speaker 1: of that. It's a horrendous and ugly business, which to
19:32
Speaker 1: a certain degree they still do that today. That's a
19:35
Speaker 1: whole different conversation. Don't get me started, because you know
19:38
Speaker 1: I will, But that what we see in her conversation
19:42
Speaker 1: is that it's so hard to even get past those
19:44
Speaker 1: blocks that has already been set up by white supremacy
19:48
Speaker 1: from way back when, from the beginning, essentially for her
19:52
Speaker 1: to find information, there hasn't been much progress and breaking
19:55
Speaker 1: down the white supremacy to tell the truth about the
19:58
Speaker 1: enslaved people and the bolts that happened, right, And on
20:02
Speaker 1: top of that, another thing that she touches on is
20:07
Speaker 1: these myths around, like you know, enslaved people didn't resist.
20:12
Speaker 1: Are other stories that are basically just deflecting the blame
20:16
Speaker 1: from anywhere where it should be, which was the white
20:19
Speaker 1: slavers and people propping it up. But that being so important,
20:24
Speaker 1: It's like this clarity when telling the story of enslavement
20:28
Speaker 1: and why it was one of the one of the
20:29
Speaker 1: reasons why she wanted to do it even though it
20:32
Speaker 1: was so painful, when it was so difficult, and there
20:33
Speaker 1: are all these things in her way, and she did
20:36
Speaker 1: find some facts that sort of we're telling her like, oh, yes,
20:42
Speaker 1: I knew I was onto something. One of them is
20:46
Speaker 1: one and ten ships of enslaved people experienced a revolt,
20:50
Speaker 1: and here's a quote. The more women on board of
20:52
Speaker 1: slave ship, the more likely a revolt. So again, where
20:55
Speaker 1: is that history. She's like, found this, but there's no
20:59
Speaker 1: the stories are there. And one of the reasons that
21:03
Speaker 1: she and others think that this is is in part
21:06
Speaker 1: because of gendered stereotypes that women aren't a threat, so
21:09
Speaker 1: they were forced to stay on deck near weapons and
21:13
Speaker 1: also where they could be sexually abused, but this allowed
21:17
Speaker 1: this was the way that they could lead these revolts, right,
21:22
Speaker 1: And she talks about the fact that many of times
21:24
Speaker 1: that the white slave version, those on the board on
21:29
Speaker 1: ships really were naive, thinking that women wouldn't do anything,
21:33
Speaker 1: and so therefore they just really let them be. Of course,
21:36
Speaker 1: I talk about the horrendousness of the activities that happened
21:40
Speaker 1: on board when they were released and why it was
21:42
Speaker 1: so horrific, and of course that that to me is
21:46
Speaker 1: like that, Yeah. A lot of the conversation that she
21:50
Speaker 1: has in the Bugs is that many of the enslaved
21:54
Speaker 1: at that time would rather die than go into this
21:57
Speaker 1: horrific situation that they know is even more awful than
22:01
Speaker 1: could be told, and that that that that there was
22:05
Speaker 1: no other options, knowing that in the sea they would die,
22:08
Speaker 1: but that would be much better than what they would
22:11
Speaker 1: have to suffer in the mainland and then in the
22:13
Speaker 1: colonies at that time. And we saw that during the
22:16
Speaker 1: revolts in many of things that they talk about Indian
22:19
Speaker 1: sam and Um the unknown woman in the beginning of
22:24
Speaker 1: the book, which one of the big revolts, and they
22:27
Speaker 1: talked about how she could not find this woman and
22:30
Speaker 1: who she was or where she came from, but both
22:32
Speaker 1: were prosecuted because she had gone and her and m Sam,
22:38
Speaker 1: who I believe was a native person who was enslaved
22:41
Speaker 1: as well, that they would rather die than continue the
22:46
Speaker 1: way they had, and they they took out the entire
22:50
Speaker 1: family because they knew if one one was alive that
22:53
Speaker 1: they would still be under ownership and would still be
22:55
Speaker 1: horrifically abused and enslaved. So all had to go, and
23:00
Speaker 1: it was an interesting In my audio version, they do
23:03
Speaker 1: have an enacted They enact the whole story, and it's
23:07
Speaker 1: interesting how they hear and what they even bring the
23:09
Speaker 1: children of the white plantation owners. They have that as
23:14
Speaker 1: a part of the conversation and then have the conversation
23:16
Speaker 1: between them about why this is so important. We also
23:20
Speaker 1: find the gendered prosecution. Essentially, the woman is burned at
23:24
Speaker 1: the stake while the man was hung, and it was
23:27
Speaker 1: during that time that this had been where the women
23:30
Speaker 1: were under property, whether they are white or of a
23:34
Speaker 1: different race, they were under the property of their husband
23:37
Speaker 1: as well, so therefore as property, this was treason to
23:41
Speaker 1: go at. Instead of just murder, it was treason. So
23:45
Speaker 1: they had a different type of punishment, which I found
23:48
Speaker 1: interesting as well. And apparently this was the revolt, according
23:51
Speaker 1: to doctor Hall's research and the book that became a
23:55
Speaker 1: whole decree about how to keep revolting enslave people in
24:00
Speaker 1: line quote unquote and had a specific punishment for them,
24:03
Speaker 1: and that was the beginning of prosecuting insurrectionists as they
24:07
Speaker 1: called them. Yeah, And then to go back to your point,
24:23
Speaker 1: there is a pretty upsetting and moving scene where doctor
24:27
Speaker 1: Hall is teaching. She's recommending Beloved Tony Morrison's Beloved, and
24:34
Speaker 1: one of the students comes up to her afterwards it's like,
24:35
Speaker 1: I already read it, Can I please not read it again?
24:38
Speaker 1: Like it was great, I'm glad I read it, but
24:40
Speaker 1: it's very difficult read. And later doctor Hall is at
24:47
Speaker 1: her home and kind of looking at her young son
24:52
Speaker 1: and thinking, like having this really emotional moment of I can't.
24:58
Speaker 1: She's struggling to come to turn with wanting a child,
25:01
Speaker 1: thinking it would be better for a child to be
25:03
Speaker 1: dead rather than be living slaves. Right because of the book,
25:08
Speaker 1: And that's just another example of that trauma, that racial trauma,
25:13
Speaker 1: intergenerational trauma, and the things that she in her own
25:17
Speaker 1: professional and personal life. It has to deal with, right. Yeah,
25:22
Speaker 1: And along with that, they do talk about those who
25:24
Speaker 1: are raped by the plantation owners and the colonizers. I'm
25:30
Speaker 1: gonna call him colonizer because I don't want to calm
25:32
Speaker 1: anything else at that point in time, and how they
25:36
Speaker 1: did not want to bring that to life essentially, which
25:38
Speaker 1: was done out of hate and anger and like like
25:42
Speaker 1: abuse in ownership in all of these things as a
25:45
Speaker 1: way of power to control power over women. They've been
25:48
Speaker 1: talked about the specific woman who was a leader of
25:51
Speaker 1: the area and how they send homage to her and
25:54
Speaker 1: revolted in her name because what they did to her,
25:57
Speaker 1: they pretty much worked her to death, as the phrase
26:00
Speaker 1: which is seen often in that conversation, and how she
26:04
Speaker 1: had been someone that had saved so many of the
26:07
Speaker 1: unsaved people at that point in time, and how they
26:10
Speaker 1: all did it in her name. And then one of
26:12
Speaker 1: the things that she helped with was trying to get
26:13
Speaker 1: rid of unwanted pregnancies by rape and sexual assault, which
26:18
Speaker 1: was all too common. Yeah, And that is something that
26:25
Speaker 1: was present in a lot of the in this book,
26:28
Speaker 1: was black women honoring and supporting other black women coming together,
26:33
Speaker 1: coming together for these revolts are coming together for something
26:36
Speaker 1: like that, and then you get to see it on
26:38
Speaker 1: a really personal level when there's almost this like memory
26:42
Speaker 1: of doctor Hall reaching out to the memory of her
26:44
Speaker 1: grandmother about surviving enslavement. And it's a really beautiful like
26:49
Speaker 1: back and forth that they have where doctor Hall is
26:53
Speaker 1: just trying to understand her grandmother and what happened to
26:56
Speaker 1: her and her life and make it relate to what
27:01
Speaker 1: she's going through and what she's trying to do in
27:02
Speaker 1: these stories she's trying to tell. It's very very moving
27:07
Speaker 1: moving scene, right. She uses her as a guidance, and
27:11
Speaker 1: I loved every bit of that, like praying for her
27:15
Speaker 1: grandmother's spirit to guide her to these truths because she
27:19
Speaker 1: was having so many roadblocks, but knowing that this is
27:23
Speaker 1: something that she was supposed to do, that this is
27:25
Speaker 1: something that's been calling to her, that all the rejection
27:28
Speaker 1: and that all the racism that she had dealt with
27:30
Speaker 1: in our path while it came to teaching, and all
27:33
Speaker 1: the pushbacks while she was researching, that it was for
27:36
Speaker 1: a purpose, and that her grandmother, who who was finally
27:40
Speaker 1: freed through all that inslatement and was the major patriarch
27:45
Speaker 1: and push for not for only for her the family,
27:48
Speaker 1: but her father specifically, and there's a beautiful exchange where
27:52
Speaker 1: we see a flashback between her father and his mother
27:56
Speaker 1: and his father and how they really grew. I think
28:00
Speaker 1: they were part of the big Great migration because they
28:02
Speaker 1: had been threatened bodily harm and then constantly taken after
28:06
Speaker 1: They were talking about having to deal with the clue
28:08
Speaker 1: Klux Klan by one of the great grandfathers and how
28:11
Speaker 1: he dealt with it and what that looked like and
28:14
Speaker 1: really trying to start over, unfortunately doing what they had
28:18
Speaker 1: to do in order to survive, but still having the
28:22
Speaker 1: spirit of the grandmother who really kept that family alive
28:26
Speaker 1: with her hope and her obviously power and constant work
28:32
Speaker 1: to provide for her family. But it was a beautiful exchange,
28:36
Speaker 1: and in this conversation of all the darkness of light
28:40
Speaker 1: growing out of that darkness, Yeah, it really was. And
28:47
Speaker 1: then the book does a really excellent job of just
28:51
Speaker 1: pointing out all of these things and how they are
28:54
Speaker 1: still in present in our society today. So it ties
28:59
Speaker 1: it together with current police violence against the black population,
29:05
Speaker 1: just like all these current issues that are from that
29:11
Speaker 1: we can't like erase as much as people try to.
29:14
Speaker 1: The history of that like it's still here. It's we're
29:17
Speaker 1: still feeling all of these impacts, and black people especially
29:20
Speaker 1: are still feeling all of these impacts. So it's a
29:24
Speaker 1: really good like tying together of why it matters that
29:28
Speaker 1: she wrote this, that she did this research on all
29:30
Speaker 1: of that, and that we all know it and how
29:33
Speaker 1: it is still here hasn't gone away. Yeah, and obviously
29:38
Speaker 1: with things like her book that again kept getting suppressed
29:44
Speaker 1: on social media. As today we've talked about the conservative
29:49
Speaker 1: pushback to learn these truths because people are afraid of
29:53
Speaker 1: what they will look like, and which is exactly what
29:56
Speaker 1: we talked about why people are blocking archival things because
29:59
Speaker 1: I don't want to be responsible or they don't even
30:02
Speaker 1: want to be shown to be even associated with that light.
30:06
Speaker 1: Which I found it interesting because I had a moment
30:08
Speaker 1: of thinking about what happened with the Nazis and the
30:11
Speaker 1: Holocaust and how Germany's response, and we've talked about this
30:14
Speaker 1: before was completely different. Of course, there's still people who
30:18
Speaker 1: want to try to deny it and hide things, but
30:20
Speaker 1: the information is a little more scene, and that's an
30:23
Speaker 1: interesting look at what has happened when things can actually
30:27
Speaker 1: be learned well hopefully people don't make the same mistakes
30:31
Speaker 1: again or watch out for warning signs, and what happens
30:34
Speaker 1: when we try to ignore history. And I find that
30:38
Speaker 1: interesting that we know so much less of something that
30:41
Speaker 1: was so prevalent, not even that long ago, that that
30:44
Speaker 1: happened to so many groups of people across the world.
30:47
Speaker 1: And this is unfortunate that she had so many roadblocks
30:53
Speaker 1: that she can't even give it the proper credit in names,
30:56
Speaker 1: but has to fill in the stories with some of
30:59
Speaker 1: the fact that she got which are amazing, and the
31:02
Speaker 1: art is amazing. It really just brings it to life
31:05
Speaker 1: in a way in a different perspective. But again that
31:08
Speaker 1: the fact that we have to struggle to get to
31:11
Speaker 1: these points, and we've talked about it before, how little
31:13
Speaker 1: history that we know of those marginalized communities, and how
31:16
Speaker 1: often they do try to hide it. And hopefully we
31:18
Speaker 1: will get more and more people who do do the
31:21
Speaker 1: hard work like this, and we are so grateful for that.
31:24
Speaker 1: We would continue to make sure it is being spread
31:27
Speaker 1: that so it won't die out. Absolutely, Yeah, I can't
31:32
Speaker 1: recommend it enough obviously, Like the questions in the back
31:36
Speaker 1: are really great to her answers to the questions in
31:38
Speaker 1: the back really good the audio that Samantha is mentioning,
31:42
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of stuff here to like really
31:45
Speaker 1: paint a full picture of what all of the difficulties
31:48
Speaker 1: of this getting made. But it's so important and it's
31:51
Speaker 1: so well done. So can't recommend enough. Go check it out,
31:56
Speaker 1: Go buy copies, do it now? Yes, yes, yes, yes um.
32:00
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you have any suggestions for what
32:03
Speaker 1: are next book called pick should be, you can emails
32:06
Speaker 1: at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
32:09
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at Momstup podcast, or on
32:11
Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You. We're
32:14
Speaker 1: also on YouTube now if you want to check it
32:15
Speaker 1: out that way. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina.
32:18
Speaker 1: Thank you, Christina, and thanks to you for listening Stuff
32:21
Speaker 1: and Never Told You protection of iHeartRadio. For more podcast
32:23
Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, you can check out the iHeartRadio app,
32:25
Speaker 1: Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows.