Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Content That's Stealing Kids' Empathy [A Listener Q&A ]

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The Content That's Stealing Kids' Empathy [A Listener Q&A ] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. Honestly, I don't really
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  Speaker 1: want to have this conversation, but every now and again
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  Speaker 1: on the pod, we've just got to talk about that
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  Speaker 1: parenting stuff that no one wants to talk about, the
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  Speaker 1: stuff that gives you the ick, the stuff that makes
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  Speaker 1: you sad and so glad that you grew up when
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  Speaker 1: you did and not in twenty twenty six tricky questions.
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  Speaker 1: So what we answer every Tuesday and today it's a
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  Speaker 1: tricky question to do with what happens when your kids
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  Speaker 1: are getting sent stuff on screens that it's not the
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  Speaker 1: ick stuff, it's just the coarse, violent stuff, the stuff
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  Speaker 1: where kids are baiting one another, creating fights so that
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  Speaker 1: they can send them around, and your child is becoming
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  Speaker 1: potentially desensitized because they kind of think it's funny that
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  Speaker 1: some kid in their grade or in a local school
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  Speaker 1: nearby got hit in the head by some other kid.
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  Speaker 1: We'll go deeper in just a sec but that's our
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  Speaker 1: conversation today. It's a tricky question on the Happy Families Podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast,
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  Speaker 1: where you get real parenting solutions every day. It's Australia's
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  Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcast where Justin and Kylie Coulson, where
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  Speaker 1: the parents have six kids. Kylie, I think I can
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  Speaker 1: be confident in saying we feel like we've been through
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  Speaker 1: most of it. Maybe not all of it, but we've
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  Speaker 1: been through a lot of it.
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  Speaker 2: I kind of get to the point where I think
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  Speaker 2: there can't be anything that the kids could do that
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  Speaker 2: would shock me.
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  Speaker 1: And then they come home and shock us, and it
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  Speaker 1: seems that we're not the only ones. Emmy has sent
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  Speaker 1: us a question. If you'd like to send us a
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  Speaker 1: tricky question, by the way, you can do it by
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  Speaker 1: emailing us your voice note podcasts at happy families dot
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  Speaker 1: com dot au. Alternatively, you can jump onto our super
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  Speaker 1: simple system at happy families dot com dot you and
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  Speaker 1: ask us whatever you want. Will answer. I mean, it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't even have to be a parent probably better if
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  Speaker 1: it is, but we'll answer it kind of anything. Emmy
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  Speaker 1: asked us this one.
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  Speaker 3: My twelve year old daughter in year seven was sent
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  Speaker 3: some confronting video footage yesterday of a fight between two
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  Speaker 3: teenage girls at another local Melbourne high school. Tells me
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  Speaker 3: that this content is being shared around. How should I
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  Speaker 3: talk to her about what she's seen? And encourage her
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  Speaker 3: also not to share it or spread that kind of content. Thanks.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm kind of the parenting guy who's
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  Speaker 1: always saying the same thing again and again and again.
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  Speaker 1: But you cannot stop. When it comes to the kids
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  Speaker 1: and tech, You've got to be across it. Unfortunately, it's this.
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  Speaker 2: Really fine line between being helicopter right and being on
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  Speaker 2: top of them all the time and giving them space
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  Speaker 2: and autonomy and allowing them to kind of use their agency.
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  Speaker 1: So young kids, they don't get it, not when it
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  Speaker 1: comes to phones, not when it comes to screens.
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  Speaker 2: As I listened to Emmy, I just wanted to say,
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  Speaker 2: just don't give her a phone.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like I've been saying this for like ten
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  Speaker 1: or fifteen years now. Kids don't need smartphones, and it's
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  Speaker 1: my parents. Smart parents give their kids dumb phones. If
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  Speaker 1: it's not the kids sending violent stuff, it's sexual stuff.
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  Speaker 1: If it's not that, it's the algorithm, it's YouTube sending
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  Speaker 1: content that's extreme and pushes them to the edges and
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  Speaker 1: puts ideas in their heads. Just so, Emmy, I really
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  Speaker 1: pre share your question, and you're absolutely right. It's great
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  Speaker 1: that you're aware of it. It's great that you're monitoring it.
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  Speaker 1: Guess what, Kylie, I've got some stats.
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  Speaker 2: Please share.
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  Speaker 1: I know you love what I share. Stats. Okay, E
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  Speaker 1: Safety Commissioner. Three and a half thousand Australian kids survey.
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  Speaker 1: Three quarters of them not quite seventy four percent. Let's
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  Speaker 1: say three quarters. We're one percent off. Three quarters of
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  Speaker 1: ten to seventeen year olds have seen harmful content online.
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  Speaker 1: Fight videos are explicitly in that category. So, Emmy, your
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  Speaker 1: daughter is not unusual here, she is typical. That doesn't
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  Speaker 1: make it good. Just because it's normal quote unquote doesn't
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  Speaker 1: mean it's okay. And there's some data that shows that
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  Speaker 1: when you witness it online it can be as bad,
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  Speaker 1: if not worse, for your stress levels than being there
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  Speaker 1: in person. We're just kind of hard to believe, Like,
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  Speaker 1: if you're there in person, it can be pretty frightening, right.
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  Speaker 2: I was having a conversation with a couple of our
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  Speaker 2: adult children a few days ago and just asking them
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  Speaker 2: about the different things they were exposed to at school.
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  Speaker 2: I was so blown away at just how prevalent all
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  Speaker 2: of these challenges have been throughout their schooling.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't come home and talk to you about it, though,
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  Speaker 1: do they No, they don't, not.
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  Speaker 2: To the extent that you'd kind of I guess, hope.
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  Speaker 2: I was just talking to a couple of our girls
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  Speaker 2: the other day and asking them about some of the
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  Speaker 2: things that I'm concerned about now for our younger children
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  Speaker 2: and the things that they're being exposed to, and I
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  Speaker 2: was actually really shocked to know that, in spite of
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  Speaker 2: the fact that we sent them to good schools, Christian schools,
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  Speaker 2: with families that share the same values, they were still
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  Speaker 2: exposed to these really confronting and challenging challenges back then.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to go so far as to say
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  Speaker 1: that adolescence in twenty twenty six, regardless of the school
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  Speaker 1: you're going to, is a septic tank. I sound like
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  Speaker 1: an old guy who's shouting at clouds here, but it
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  Speaker 1: is so bad. It is so astonishingly, shockingly, frighteningly bad.
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  Speaker 1: Parents need to have these conversations, and as Emi seems
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  Speaker 1: to be doing right, she's saying, I sat there with
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  Speaker 1: my daughter, I saw this stuff on her phone. So
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  Speaker 1: that's great that you're doing it. But the impact of
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  Speaker 1: technology children as well being, I don't think that we
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  Speaker 1: can underestimate how impactful it can be nor can we
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  Speaker 1: overstate how important is that we're on top of things.
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  Speaker 2: So the stats are telling us that nearly two thirds
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  Speaker 2: of kids.
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  Speaker 1: No, three quarters, three quarters of kids. Bigger number than
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  Speaker 1: two thirds, six seventy five percent, big number, three quarters
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  Speaker 1: of kids are seeing this stuff. And you know what
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  Speaker 1: is happening? Like, kids are going into schools and they're
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  Speaker 1: baiting one another, They're setting up fights, they're creating fight
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  Speaker 1: clubs so that they can record it, so that they
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  Speaker 1: can go viral with it. This has been going on
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  Speaker 1: for several years now.
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  Speaker 2: And what are the statistics saying is most problematic about
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  Speaker 2: the sharing of this stuff.
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  Speaker 1: So what happens is, first of all, it stresses you out,
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  Speaker 1: but then you become desensitized, but the stress and anxiety
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  Speaker 1: don't go away. Let me share a real life example.
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  Speaker 1: So September eleven, two thousand and one, you and I
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  Speaker 1: are old enough to remember, I was working at a
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  Speaker 1: radio station in Newcastle and XFM when this happened, and
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  Speaker 1: the TV stations kept on playing the tragedy over and
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  Speaker 1: over and over again, showing the aeroplanes crashing into buildings.
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  Speaker 1: And so what happens is if you see something happen
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  Speaker 1: once Let's say you saw the footage once. It would
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  Speaker 1: shock you and you would walk away, and you would
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  Speaker 1: remember it and you would think about it, but eventually
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  Speaker 1: it would kind of fade. But they were showing it
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  Speaker 1: on repeat NonStop for days. And what happens is the
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  Speaker 1: more you watch it, the more anxious you get. It
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  Speaker 1: makes things worse and worse and worse and worse for you,
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  Speaker 1: until eventually you become desensitized to seeing it like it
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  Speaker 1: does you kind of forget the enormity of it. If
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  Speaker 1: that makes sense. You've got two different psychological mechanisms that
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  Speaker 1: are just amplifying bad outcomes for you. And that's what
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  Speaker 1: happens when kids watch all of this violence on their
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  Speaker 1: favorite Instagram channel that shows the hideous stuff that happens
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  Speaker 1: in their suburb. And there is an Instagram channel for
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  Speaker 1: just about every suburb that's out there, showing shoplifting and
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  Speaker 1: fights in toilets and damage to cars and public property
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  Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff. So after the break,
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  Speaker 1: we need to talk about what to do. What does
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  Speaker 1: Emmy say to her daughter to help her to navigate
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  Speaker 1: this very very tricky and frankly awful situation. Effectively, stay
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  Speaker 1: with us it's next. We're back. It's the Happy Family's podcast.
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  Speaker 1: How do you have a conversation with your kids about
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  Speaker 1: what they're seeing online, especially when it's so close to home,
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  Speaker 1: nearby high school, and it's freaking you child out a
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  Speaker 1: little bit, or maybe it's not freaking them out enough,
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  Speaker 1: they're getting a bit of a kick out of it.
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  Speaker 1: How do we navigate this?
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's my question for you, because i'm the periods
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  Speaker 2: of a parenting expert. How do you navigate this?
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  Speaker 1: They didn't teach us this when I did my psychology degree.
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  Speaker 1: I want to step into what the theory indicates. Albert
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  Speaker 1: Bandura was a Stanford psychologist who is just world famous
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  Speaker 1: for his really really smart studies, and he came up
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  Speaker 1: with this idea called moral disengagement, and I think that's
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  Speaker 1: what's going on here. This is why kids share bad videos.
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  Speaker 1: The mechanisms that Benjura developed work that there's a minimization
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  Speaker 1: of responsibility, there's a distortion of consequence, and there's just dehumanization.
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  Speaker 1: Those three things. If you can grab a pen and
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  Speaker 1: write them down and talk to your child about those
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  Speaker 1: three things and how that plays out when you're sharing
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  Speaker 1: these kinds of videos. Again, minimization of responsibility. Everyone's already
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  Speaker 1: seen it, right, distorting the consequences, or I didn't hit anyone, dehumanizing.
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  Speaker 1: She probably deserved it. So you talk about that, and
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  Speaker 1: that's what lets bystanders be bystanders without feeling any guilt.
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  Speaker 1: It's this moral disengagement. And the reframe that we need
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  Speaker 1: to get across to our teenager is that sharing is participation.
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  Speaker 1: You might not have held the camera, you might not
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  Speaker 1: have set up the fire, you might not have thrown
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  Speaker 1: your fist at their face, you might not have cheered
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  Speaker 1: them on.
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  Speaker 2: You're perpetuating the violence.
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  Speaker 1: Precisely, and you're reinforcing the harm by sharing it or
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  Speaker 1: liking it or talking about.
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  Speaker 2: It or watching it because they get likes, right right.
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  Speaker 2: But there more traction online there is.
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  Speaker 1: They don't always get likes because it's not always on
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  Speaker 1: TikTok or Instagram. Sometimes it's just via instant it's via
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  Speaker 1: text message, right right. So, and that's the other thing,
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  Speaker 1: Like kids are getting around the algorithm and getting around
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  Speaker 1: the sanctions that the safety commissioner might put on them
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  Speaker 1: if they go through social media platforms by just sharing
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  Speaker 1: them in encrypted chats, in WhatsApp, in basic text messaging.
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  Speaker 1: There's another thing that I think is even more concerning,
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  Speaker 1: and that is that the poor kid who's been the
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  Speaker 1: victim here, they are ongoing and traumatized because now everyone
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  Speaker 1: knows it. Everyone sees it when they walk down the
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  Speaker 1: street or through the school playground. Everyone knows it can
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  Speaker 1: trigger the next fight. So I think this conversation with
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  Speaker 1: your child, Emmy, it's not just about moral disengagement. As
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  Speaker 1: important as those elements of moral disengagement are that I
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  Speaker 1: talked about, it's also about empathy. And the research literature
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  Speaker 1: shows that empathy is probably the biggest protective factor here.
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  Speaker 1: Teaching your kids to be empathic in these situations, which
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  Speaker 1: is exactly the opposite of what they seem drawn to,
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  Speaker 1: is the the central thing to do.
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  Speaker 2: Too often, though, I think that the empathy is put
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  Speaker 2: in the wrong direction. Like kids are often more inclined
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  Speaker 2: to side with the perpetrator, the aggressor in the situation
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  Speaker 2: because they've seen the way an interaction has gone that's
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  Speaker 2: left that person obviously so fueled up that they feel
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  Speaker 2: like they have to, you know, kind of man up
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  Speaker 2: and defend their position.
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  Speaker 1: Or maybe but then we've got more teaching to do right,
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  Speaker 1: and that is that no matter what somebody does, is
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  Speaker 1: it ever okay for you to start using your fist?
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  Speaker 1: Is it ever okay to throw things at somebody? Is
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  Speaker 1: it ever okay be violent? And maybe there is actually
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  Speaker 1: a case of violence, but usually there's not. It's a
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  Speaker 1: pretty extreme situation where you're defending yourself, not when you're
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  Speaker 1: going on the attack because you don't like someone. I
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  Speaker 1: just thought as you were saying that as well, Kylie.
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  Speaker 1: There's two other things that we can talk about with
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  Speaker 1: Emmy and her daughter. Number One, we want to ask
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  Speaker 1: questions like why was this sent to you? Who wins
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  Speaker 1: when you fought it? Like what is fanning and who
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  Speaker 1: is fanning it? And why? And do you want to
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  Speaker 1: be a part of something like that? So those kinds
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  Speaker 1: of questions are really valuable. The last thing that we
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  Speaker 1: really need to emphasize is legally sharing fight videos. It
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  Speaker 1: won't always, but it can meet the definition of cyber
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  Speaker 1: bullying under Australian law. The Safety Commissioner can get involved
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  Speaker 1: here and so can the Federal police. And if you
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  Speaker 1: forward it, you can incriminate yourself right in fact, in
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  Speaker 1: wa I don't know if I've got this exactly right,
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  Speaker 1: But in WA they already auto suspend students who film
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  Speaker 1: fights like that's just a policy across Western Australian schools.
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  Speaker 1: If you are filming a fight, you will be suspended
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  Speaker 1: just like the people who are in the fight. Because
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  Speaker 1: we don't want this stuff to keep on building and growing.
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  Speaker 1: So let's wrap it up there. Our time is done.
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  Speaker 1: I think the most important thing to get to me
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  Speaker 1: for your daughter is have the conversation. But then you're
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  Speaker 1: asking for a vote from her. I'm going to vote that.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not going to share it. I'm not going to
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  Speaker 1: afford it. I'm not going to comment on it. I'm
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  Speaker 1: not going to keep on rewatch it, but I am
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  Speaker 1: going to report it. I am going to tell an
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  Speaker 1: adult I'm going to be the kid who breaks the chain.
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  Speaker 1: That's the direction that i'd be heading. It sounds like
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  Speaker 1: you're on the right track anyway, because you do know
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  Speaker 1: about it, and you've been able to come to us
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  Speaker 1: about it. So hopefully some useful insights and info in
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  Speaker 1: that conversation. If you've got a tricky question for us,
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  Speaker 1: hit us up at happy families dot com dot U
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  Speaker 1: super simple system. There, we scroll down and push the
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  Speaker 1: record button. And start talking. You can also get in
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: touch with us by sending us an email a voice
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  Speaker 1: notes podcasts at happy families dot com dot AU. All right,
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  Speaker 1: let's wrap it there. The Happy Families podcast, produced by
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Justin rul On Mimhammond's provides research, admin and additional support.
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  Speaker 1: And if you'd like more in fo to make your
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  Speaker 1: family happier, you can find it at happy families dot
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  Speaker 1: com dot A.
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  Speaker 3: You