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The 4 Step Process To Initiate Your Boys Into Manhood with Stephen Meeks · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  Tomorrow's men depend on what we do with today's boys. If we do well, we'll have hopefully some good men to lead our daughters, to be in charge of the families, church, community, whatever. If we don't, then, man, what a disaster is ahead of us.
• 0:16
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams Podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 0:36
  Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I'm joined today by Stephen Meeks. Stephen, thanks for jumping on here today. Yep, my pleasure. Looking forward to our visit. Yeah, so Stephen is a part of a ministry called Save the Boys. And yeah, I would love, before we dive in, I want to hear Stephen's story and there's some really cool things that they're doing there and I want us to interact over it. But tell me a little bit about the organization, the ministry, what it entails. Yeah.
• 1:01
  Good. Well, I'm partnered with a friend, Marcus Matzo, and he and I had a common vision some years ago that our visions collided. And what came out of it was a joint effort to help fathers to lead their sons in particular and...
• 1:17
  And to leave their sons for the sake of their daughters. Because our girls, I have granddaughters. He has a daughter. So our girls need a lot better options than they have now for the men who will care for them and guide their families. And we weren't seeing enough.
• 1:35
  We collaborated to put together his branding techniques and all his knowledge and expertise in that area and my years of experience with my sons and others, leading men to do a better job with their boys. And then we...
• 1:52
  It landed upon the effort called Save the Boys. Excellent. Very cool. Well, excited to kind of dive a little bit deeper into that. I'd love to start just to hear a little bit about your story, Stephen. Why do you feel like for you personally, this is resonating with you? Yeah, well, I have four sons. My sons are grown now. They have sons. But when I was, you know, years ago, the younger man and I had boys at home, I saw my first son, Daniel.
• 2:20
  who was 11, 12-ish, and it struck me that he's soon moving into the teen years. I want him to be ready to handle the distractions and the attractions and such that are in those years, and I want him to manage them well and come out, of course, unharmed and in a good place. But I wasn't sure what to do. My background, my father was a good man, but my father had a problem. He was an alcoholic.
• 2:49
  And addicted to gambling and some other things. And so he was absent and really didn't have good tools from his own upbringing on how to lead me. And so...
• 3:02
  And I guessed, and by God's grace, I guessed right on a lot of things and had some good mentors that came along at the right time and helped me. But I didn't want my sons to guess because they might not guess well. And I wanted to be the one to lead my sons. And so I was listening to James Dobson's material back in those days, back in the late 80s, mid and late 80s. And there was some good, helpful material there for us.
• 3:31
  And I really just wanted my son—this is, by the way, this is like an accident to me. What we're producing came through divine intervention or accident. I don't know, but it wasn't something that I knew I was going to do or planned.
• 3:45
  But I'm really glad for what came out of it. And so I knew I had to lead him into these teen years preparing him. And so I just wanted to take him on a trip, a little time away, to talk about purity, just sexual control and purity and help him to make a commitment to that.
• 4:04
  And I like the outdoors, so I said, why don't we go fishing? A friend mentioned a place called the Boundary Waters up in northern Minnesota. It's pristine, wilderness-like, and that sounded good to me. And so I invited my son to go on a trip when he's 13, good transition age. And so I decided to take him on that trip. And we went, and I asked him to make the commitments. But the things that happened on our trip that I didn't expect—
• 4:32
  were the gold within the gold. It was tremendous. And so when we came home, I had another son two years behind. And of course, he wants to go. When I'm 13, Dad, you're going to take me. Of course, I'm going to take you. Well, I took him and I added in what I'd learned on the first trip. And some more things came about that I didn't plan that were terrific in our relationship between he and I, as well as his commitments and the move towards being a man.
• 5:02
  And so, our son number three, when it was his turn, he wanted to go. It took him and number four. And then a few years after that, people were seeing my sons, and they said, we want our, we really, what are you doing? We like what we're seeing here in your guys. What have you done?
• 5:22
  And I mentioned to one of them a particular trip around 13 when I took the boys out. We made some real commitments to being certain ways as men. And I said, I think that's been a key. And the teller said, well, you take me and my sons. Okay, it's a bit of a commitment. It's a long trip and a lot of work. But I said, sure, I'll do that for you. So he had a 17 and a 13-year-old. We went, and every day I would coach him and say, okay, talk to him about these things. Here's what we did. Try this, your version of it.
• 5:52
  And it worked for him and his sons. And so I began to tell others. And then eventually one of my sons said, Dad, you really need to put this on paper, get this out. Other people will benefit from this, and they're looking for it.
• 6:07
  So I did, and not long after that, that's when I met Marcus, and here we are today trying to give out what I learned that worked with my sons then and since then. It's really a great relationship. We get along so well, and it's just a gift from God. So that's where we are. That's so good. Yeah.
• 6:29
  Yeah, it seems like right at that transition, there's a real opportunity to lead the relationship in a different way. And if you don't, there's sort of a, like, such a predictable pattern of there being kind of a separation during those teenage years. And so, yeah, have you had any thought about why that is? Like, why is it that when certain ages seem to be so critical to have certain conversations or to make certain connections with your kids? Yeah.
• 6:59
  Yeah, I've run into some stuff. You get in a certain circle, you start talking about things and thinking about them, and then this information kind of pops up on your radar. And so, yeah, there's some scientific study, research, brain research, behind that age, around 12, 13, when some parts of the frontal cortex began to solidify or...
• 7:24
  and from then up to about 25, but there's some hardening of some things physically in your brain.
• 7:31
  that also mean that some things cognitively, some values and other things sort of are hardwired at that point too. And so it's really important around 12 to 13 that you get in there, the bottom line of what you want. So it's much harder to change those values and those beliefs and ideas that you get at 12 and 13. It's harder to change them later on. They can be done.
• 7:56
  but it's a lot more work, so why not start off on a good foot? And why not you, dad, or the granddad or whoever, the mentor, why don't you put that in there upfront so he doesn't have to struggle all the way through later? And he has a place to come back to, sort of a foundation, a solid footing that he can land on when he sort of gets off balance. He has a place to go to that is solid, secure, safe.
• 8:22
  And my sons are starting a little earlier than I did with some of this, and I think it's good. My second son has the oldest grandson, and at seven, he begins this process that I did at 12 or 13. He begins it, not the whole thing.
• 8:39
  But he starts it earlier, and I think it's really wise. And so dads that have younger kids, you know, even five, six, seven years old, there are things that they could do now so that when their boy is 12 or 13, it's a slam dunk. There's no—you know, guys that are 13, 15, I mean, boys that are that age, dads, depending on the relationship. Some dads, it's easy, but for a lot of dads, boy, I'm like, how do I get his attention? He's not listening to me. We're kind of butting heads. He's on a different track. You know, all that kind of stuff.
• 9:09
  And we're helping those dads. We have news for them. Here's how to get it on track. Here's how to make it work to move the ball forward. But how much easier if the relationship is already pretty healthy and the boy is already eager for this guidance from you. And so younger dads are going to have an advantage, and the guys who have older kids, they're not out of the game at all. It's just they'll have a little bit of a hurdle, but some advice and things we've learned.
• 9:35
  It helps them get through that impossible wall is not as impossible as they might think. Yeah. Really good. You know, one of the things that's kind of unique about your story is having kind of four cracks at this. I think that sometimes what's challenging is you get, you kind of, if you have your kids and you have your one chance and then you're like, okay, I don't, I don't know what I would have done differently. I only had, you know, but when you have four, you know.
• 9:59
  you start to see patterns and you're like, Oh, that that's more normal. We got four different boys. They all responded to this. They all, and that's, I find that really helpful having a kind of a larger, uh, family group in, in one gender like that, where you can kind of see the things that really work. And you mentioned like you took them away for, uh, this became like a family tradition, this particular place. Um, and then,
• 10:21
  There was the content, but then you said there was also just these goals. Is it those moments or like, well, how would you describe the other things that, that really made that a meaningful experience for them?
• 10:33
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• 11:04
  Well, first of all, we came to some common ground as a family. They were coming to—all my sons and I have—and by the way, my son-in-law, I took him to later. Yes. Because he's going to raise my grandson, so we— I took him on the trip. So we all have some centerpiece that we tethered to, some agreements that we made together—
• 11:34
  on the same turf, I mean, actually the same little hike and camping sites and stuff where we talked about the same things. So there's a way that what we did is pulled us together on some common things that are very important for us when we get back home.
• 11:49
  And we are working out day by day decisions and difficulties and all that kind of thing. And so it's been good for us in that way. But my sons also did not, they went into manhood confidently because they were not alone.
• 12:09
  I was, they knew, and we made it clear on that trip just, and we connected on just how much on the same page we were and how much I was on their team. I know you work a lot with team concept and we very much play on that. We play towards that. And so I let them know I'm on their team. I'm the coach, but I'm a listening coach. And if I don't have the information, I go find it, but I will never embarrass them for having their questions.
• 12:38
  And so they knew they were safe. And they weren't alone. And I think boys, you know, boys want to be men. They do. They want to grow up and be the superhero or the big guy or whatever it is. And so they want that. It's just they have to be led. And Dad's the one to do it, the best one. Yes. But they need to know that Dad is safe and that Dad wants to lead them. And then when they do that, I think they blossom. I think they, I know we avoided the,
• 13:08
  The teenage rebellion thing. I know people can't, some people say, no way. Yeah way. We totally avoided all that. Yes. Not because I'm a great dad, by the way, Jeremy, I just want people to know, I'm not a perfect dad at all. And none of you are perfect dads. There's no perfect dad, okay? There's just not one, right?
• 13:30
  But knowing what to do when you do fail so that you don't cause damage in your son long-term or in the relationship. Yes. And that's what we got to have. And so we learned those things and that's made the difference. That's so good. Yeah. A friend of mine who has studied this pretty deeply, he has talked about how repair is really critical. You can make a lot of mistakes if you're good at repair.
• 13:57
  That's good. I like this. You got to keep that relationship intact. Man, that's good. Well, Stephen, as you've watched through your ministry, the four boys that you raised, there does seem to be a crisis for boys today. And it does seem like the problem is either not getting fixed or maybe even getting worse. I'm curious what...
• 14:19
  Yeah. How do you see this problem? Is it something that is like any ideas about what is causing it? How you describe it? Do you think it is getting worse? Let's talk. I want to hear a little bit more about what you've observed. Yeah. There's a real problem. In many ways, manhood is under attack.
• 14:41
  definition of what is a man is all over the place. And most of the definition, almost all the definitions are silly. I mean, he's 16 or he's 18 or he got a driver's license. That doesn't make a man. Yeah. There are 30 year olds that are still boys. There are 50 year olds that are still boys. And there are some 15 year olds that are men because it's an internal character thing. And so, yeah, there's a there's a problem because also dads don't know, um,
• 15:09
  where to go sometimes, and they don't know how to get their boys' attention. You know, attention is divided between games or other attractions. Busyness is a problem. So there's a lot of things fighting against it. The cure, and this is important because so much hinges on our boys. Yes. That's why our emphasis, you know, tomorrow's men,
• 15:34
  depend on what we do with today's boys. If we do well, we'll have hopefully some good men to lead our daughters, to be in charge of the families, church, community, whatever. If we don't, then, man, what a disaster is ahead of us. And I think we're in the middle of some failures of the past.
• 15:53
  but they can be overcome. Somebody has to lead the charge. And the good thing I'm seeing, encouraging thing, I'm seeing a lot of ministries, yours and others like these, that God has raised up so that men are bringing a lot to the table. There's more material or more options. There's all kinds of avenues for dads to find answers, help, guidance, camaraderie, all of that. Yes. So there's hope in that. And...
• 16:23
  And yet, dads still sometimes think, I wish I had an uncle here beside me who would just tell me. Just, you know, kind of not really hold my hand through it, but, you know, just an uncle that I could trust. He could sit down with me and talk and guide me through it. And as they do that, though, I'm seeing that the boys are more eager than maybe we think. They are distracted. But when they see real, when they know they're safe...
• 16:47
  When they know that, I mean, like, they're not going to be embarrassed or ridiculed or when they feel that they can meet the mark. When they feel like, you know, you can measure up. It's not some unattainable picture of what a man is that the kid just says, there's no way I can do all that or be all that. Right. So when that's within reach, I think bodies are eager to be invited into.
• 17:09
  a kind of manhood that is strong, that is noble, that is virtuous, a kind of manhood that is welcoming and assuring because it's right, because it is good. I think boys are attracted to that, and I'm seeing that. And many dads just don't think they have what it takes, but they do if they're just coached through it. Absolutely, they can do it.
• 17:35
  Yeah. Yeah. The coaching, I think is so critical. You know, there's, um, kind of the adage that, uh, men, uh, won't do anything until they have to, then they can do anything. Um, I think, uh, that really helped me understand the essence of the problem as well. It's very much what you're saying that if, if there's not a culture that,
• 17:55
  That is really calling men up. If it's just saying, no, just grab your rights, do whatever feels good to you. Men will sink to that level, you know, and if we create a culture that we're calling men up, you're going to see the most amazing things you've ever seen out of men. And so we have to create that culture. You can't, and especially starts with your own and within your own family.
• 18:15
  with fathers and their own sons. And there is no substitute for that. There's things we can do to help, you know, mitigate the damage and to surround boys with a community that don't have fathers. But God's plan was that boys have fathers and that the fathers will call them to a very high standard. And so it's being attacked on every level, right? You have fatherlessness, which is epidemic proportions.
• 18:41
  Then you have even very engaged fathers that won't call their sons up to a high level because they've been taught that, you know, it's just basically being a good father, just being present and playing with your child. There's not a sense of, no, we're called to greatness and we're going to do great things for the Lord. And so that all requires traditions and culture and identity. These are the powerful tools that every single team on the earth that has any real success can.
• 19:11
  brings to bear as well as just a really well-trained coach who knows what they're doing and is really trying to instill confidence and has a clear direction that he wants to see the team move in. So yeah, there's a lot at stake here. Like you're saying, I think we need to be really thoughtful about how to invest and find these tools. And so
• 19:31
  So you guys, part of what you've done, Stephen and your team, you guys have worked on trying to make more concrete the tools that people can have access to. I'd love for you to kind of tease out a little bit more about, you know, what is involved there and what are some of the things that you think that needs to go in a father's tool belt to make this happen?
• 19:53
  Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we've worked hard to put together the things that we learned that worked and what we learned. And we've learned from some others, too. We're all learning together. And specifically, we're working on how to transition boys into men, how to make that leap from the...
• 20:15
  And we define it this way. Boys are takers. Men are givers. So boys are me, me. I, I. It's all self. But men, real men, like Jesus' men, are thinking of others. They're outward.
• 20:29
  and attentive to others and others first and all of that kind of thing. So how do we transition in a boy's really in his core, in the center? How do we transition him from one day that selfish, I, I, me, me guy to the other, the flip of that, which is I am now committed to others, to thinking of and serving and preparing myself to be the best for others? Yeah.
• 20:55
  And so we have, I lived in East Africa for 10 years as a rural church effort there. And we lived in with people in villages and learn language and huts and the whole thing, all that stuff you would think about. And so I learned a lot while I was there. And I went to teach, but I learned a lot.
• 21:16
  And one of the things I observed was every year, this particular tribal group that we were affiliated with, every year in December, they have a month of seclusion where they take some of their boys, and the men will take them off, and they initiate them. They have a rite of passage kind of thing where for a month they're in seclusion, and they have some things that they do, some rituals and such, but they have some content, and the content is telling them, here's what a...
• 21:46
  A man who's a member of this tribe, these are the traits of that man. Here's what he does, here's what he doesn't do. Very practical stuff. I wasn't privy to all of that. It's very secretive, but we learned some. And the content's not the stuff that I would...
• 22:02
  teach my sons or you would teach yours, but it was, but the process, the pattern, it was great. It was very effective, I should say. I mean, those boys went in as young kids, 13 to 17 years old, and when they came out after a month, they, you could see it in their, their posture, in their, everything about them oozed. I am
• 22:27
  A man now, not a boastful, proud thing, but just confidence. And I don't know, it was a transformation on the inside that was obvious on the outside. Whole community participated in it. And it was, I said, wow, whatever they did, I want to know because I want to use that with my sons to move them to being mature, being man, you know, grown rather than being kids and selfish.
• 22:54
  So I learned more about the whole study of rite of passage and all of that. And it's all over the world in all kinds of forms. Every culture except ours, the West, doesn't really have rites of passage. It's not hazing. You know, it's not loincloth around the bonfire thing. It's not hot coals. It's not that stuff.
• 23:14
  And it contains some three common pieces. One is an invitation where the men say, come away and be a man. So there's an invitation. And there's a time of liminality where they're in limbo between boy and man, not fully boy, not yet a man, kind of that thing. And then there's a re-assimilation. You know, they come back into the community and now they're viewed as...
• 23:39
  as different as being able to be married or able to own property or whatever. There's some changes in the way that the community, the village views them. And like with the folks we worked with, a boy couldn't speak in an assembly. But later as he comes out, he now has earned the ability to stand and speak among men in an assembly as an example.
• 24:01
  So we don't have that. So I took those pieces and on my son's trips, we developed those and added another at the end. So that I take my son's, we call it core, C-O-R-E. So calling.
• 24:18
  invitation. Come on, son, one of these days, here's how I do it. Son, one of these days, when you are 13, I'm going to take you on a trip, me and you, just the two of us, and we're going to talk about being a man. I can't wait to tell you. It's going to be great. That's all I tell you.
• 24:36
  And then the year before he turns 13, I say, oh, you want to go? And I get his buy-in and he'll say, yeah. So every year on the birthday, I remind them of that, but I don't give any details. A little mystery is useful. You know, like Christmas gifts should wrap them up. Why? Because mystery is kind of a fun part of it too.
• 24:53
  And so, and then I take them on the trip. So that's calling and orientation is a time where you break them down to build them up. It's where you disorient them a little bit, new places, new things. They don't know what's going on and you guide them. They learn to listen to you. They learn to build, they learn they can trust you when they listen to you.
• 25:11
  And there's a lot of conversation there, and that's what I've made an outline and ideas, a whole bag of ideas that dads can choose from about how to reconstruct this boy so that he listens to you. And you've got to have his ear going out into those years. So how can he listen to you, and how do you get his ear, and how do you get him to trust you as well? And then there are commitments that are made there that are directed towards how he's going to behave towards his family and his neighbors and friends and enemies.
• 25:39
  And so all of that's conversational stuff we've prepared and any dad, he can do it. And then there's the, we call it the re-entry, C-O-R, another re-entry. So they come back and there's a community event there that's planned. It's a big deal.
• 25:55
  I mean, it should be a big deal. And it's so helpful because it solidifies the cement of what was formed out there on the trip, whatever kind of trip dad's going to take him on. When they come back, he just makes it firm because now he has people who he's accountable to, who know, oh, this is what you're going to be. This is the way you've decided to live. And they kind of look for him to do that. So it's really good for him, really great for the community. Yeah.
• 26:25
  And then afterwards, our acronym is C-O-R-E, so the E is ethos, which is living the promises, the pledges, how do we live out the commitments that we made back there in transitioning. And so that's where dad and son ongoing continue that. It's really discipleship is what that part is. And so dads are making disciples of their sons in a way that's,
• 26:52
  fun and positive. And the boy knows he's getting grip. He's really can see the traction in his life. And he's moving away from this childish ways into more mature adult ways. For us and for the dads that I've shown it to, Jeremy, and who tried it, we've not yet had one come back and say, I was a waste of time. It didn't work. What I hear is,
• 27:17
  I'm afraid I'm going to blow it. That's what they say. I'm scared. I'm not sure if I can do this. I don't know if I can do this. And I say, whatever you do will be the right. It's enough because you've shown him.
• 27:30
  You care and you love him and you're on his team. Just the effort is important. So they kind of cross their fingers and go out there and hope that they can do it. And they come back and the dads are relieved. And they say to me, Steven, it was better than I expected.
• 27:48
  Oh, things happen I didn't expect. And that's part of the beauty, Jeremy, is that every trip, something happens that's not planned. And I tell the guys, that's God's plan in it. And that will be the most meaningful piece of the whole trip. Guaranteed. Always happens.
• 28:07
  And it'd be most meaningful for both of you, for you and him. So anyway, we call it the core of these trips. We call them manabouts. Kind of like the walkabout thing. So we call them manabouts. And it works. And so we want dads to have it. This is what my son meant when he said, dad, you need to tell others. So we want them to have it and use it.
• 28:29
  Are you following us on Facebook and Instagram yet? Look up at Family Teams to get even more free content and never miss out on event announcements. So good. Is it usually one-on-one? Do you guys do groups, or how does this usually happen practically?
• 28:48
  A lot of other cultures do small groups. I'm encouraging one-on-one just because there are parts of ours, the content part of our works is all about him learning to trust you. And there's some private conversations that you'll want him to have freedom to say whatever he wants to say without possibly being embarrassed with anyone else. I'm not saying it can't be done in a small group.
• 29:13
  It may need to be sometimes. My son-in-law, well, I took a young man from our community whose dad was not part of his life. And his mom said, I'm struggling with him and I think I'm losing him. Can you help? So I decided to, I said, I can try. Okay.
• 29:31
  And so I went and I took two of my sons and this guy who became my son-in-law. He was we knew he was headed that way. So we all went on a trip. So there's a group. But I did take a part of the time with this neighborhood young man. I took him aside and we had some of these conversations in private.
• 29:49
  So I guess I'm saying that I'm saying, yeah, you can do that so long as they understand there's some times when they'll need to pull aside together. So they're good. And also moms. That's an example to a lot of single moms.
• 30:02
  They recognize that they can't do some things for their sons that their dad should be doing. And that doesn't mean that some moms are married, but dad's just not stepping up. So what to do? And I would say that's the situation where a lot of us can mentor, can serve as a mentor. An uncle can do it or a granddad or...
• 30:25
  Another man can step into the role to some degree and lead this boy to know what to think and have someone that he can trust and look to in the years coming forward. So single moms are not out. They're not abandoned in our plans. We most definitely include them in the thinking about how to help our boys.
• 30:47
  so important so walk me through a little bit Stephen how somebody could get more information and if they what kinds of resources do you guys provide for somebody who wants to create one of these manabouts right
• 31:03
  Well, we have online, you can go to fathermediagroup.org. That's our website, fathermediagroup.org. And there are resources there. You can go on Amazon and buy the book, Save the Boys. And the companion to it, there's a workbook that's a companion to it. It's a blueprint. You fill in the blanks, you answer the questions, and then you just go follow your plan. You take your son, but Save the Boys on Amazon.
• 31:33
  And we are, I hold retreats. If a church or a group of guys, a cohort of guys come together and say, we'd like to have you come out and teach. It's just for the dads or the men, not the boys. Okay. But on a Friday and Saturday together, we can spend the day together.
• 31:53
  find a place to camp or just to get away alone. And I take them through and let them experience some of these pieces themselves so that they get it. Because it's really a pretty foreign concept to us, really. It's not a camp out. You might go camping, but it's more than the camp out. It's not the loincloth thing. It's not hazing. It's just, well, what is it? Well, I'm trying to describe it, but you really...
• 32:19
  And once you experience pieces of it, then dads go, oh, now I get it. And especially when they take a second boy, they're like, oh, man, I'm going to do it right this time for sure. So retreats, and they can contact us through Father Media Group or email me.
• 32:35
  Maybe you can put my email down in your description or something. And those are good ways to start the conversation. And we're in the throes of putting together, hopefully, in next year, a video series because we realize it.
• 32:52
  after we wrote the books, we realized that most guys don't read stuff. A lot. Locking them in, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you get some new thing in the mail and you open it up, you lay the three pages of instructions to the side and you start trying to put it together. Yes. But guys watch a DIY video and lots of them. And so we're trying to put together video series that presents this material in a useful way as well. So that's,
• 33:21
  That's in the pipeline. We want to do a pretty epic job because we want it to be something guys are proud of. And they'll say, hey, you've got to see this. And by the way, the content's good, too. That's awesome. That's in the pipeline. But for now. Okay. Yeah. Follow themediagroup.org or go online and buy a book, Save the Boys at Amazon. Excellent.
• 33:40
  Well, Stephen, thank you so much for all the work you're doing. I think it's awesome that you've had and taken all the experience of having four sons, raising four sons, and now are helping so many others. So appreciate it. And yeah, I'm so glad to be on the same team trying to figure out how do we call men up? How do we become in the kingdom of God, the kinds of men that God has called us to be? And these tools are absolutely critical. So thanks so much for all you do.
• 34:07
  Welcome. Thanks for having me and introducing and letting other guys be introduced to this. It's so critical. Dads have such a pivotal role. And I'm glad we're both working on family. It's not to leave mom out. I'm not trying to leave mom out at all. It's just there's a particular thing that dads are the best to do. And anyway, that's our emphasis. So thanks a lot for having me on here. It's great. Absolutely. Thanks, Stephen.
• 34:32
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