Latest / Spacious Success / 038 | The Third Space: Why Work Gets Your Best and Home Gets What’s Left, with Dr Adam Fraser

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038 | The Third Space: Why Work Gets Your Best and Home Gets What’s Left, with Dr Adam Fraser · Spacious Success

0:05
Hi, I'm Dr. Christy Goodwin, a neuro-performance scientist, speaker and executive coach who learned the hard way that chasing success can come at a cost.
0:16
After burnout landed me in hospital, I made it my mission to help ambitious women who are done trading their health and happiness for high performance.
0:27
On Spacious Success, I share science-backed strategies and real stories to help you flourish as a female at work and beyond so you can stop paying the success tax.
0:41
What made me want to invite Dr. Adam onto this podcast, besides his wife Christine's persistence that he should be a guest, is that we have a shared conviction that performance should actually lift people up
0:55
It shouldn't wear them down or be another thing that they're performing.
0:59
And so much of our modern life has made life easy, and that can be, ironically, the thing that is depleting us and quietly powering us down.
1:10
So welcome to Spacious Success, Dr. Adam Fraser.
1:13
Hello.
1:15
Can I tell you, for the last week I've been looking forward to this.
1:18
This has been my bright spot.
1:21
Good to see that face.
1:22
Thank you.
1:22
I don't see nearly enough.
1:24
Oh, the provider of anticipatory dopamine.
1:26
Thank you.
1:27
I'm pleased to be that for you.
1:29
Well, um...
1:32
Adam, your work has been instrumental.
1:33
I've got a couple of your dog-eared books here.
1:35
You can probably see by the tinge if you're watching the video.
1:38
They've been well-loved.
1:39
They've been well-shared.
1:41
But the book that really changed, really, I guess, forced me to question how I was operating was your book called The Third Space.
1:49
Yeah.
1:50
Your third space, I think, research really made your name.
1:53
Would you agree that that's really implemented your leadership?
1:58
It was kind of like, you know, the...
2:01
the hit album that I'm trying to find a follow-up to.
2:05
It's still the most, you know, like people still talk to me about that so much.
2:13
And even I was in Coles the other day doing the shopping.
2:17
This dude comes up and taps me on the shoulder and I'm kind of a bit grumpy.
2:21
It's early.
2:21
And I'm like, what?
2:23
And he goes, are you the third space guy?
2:26
And I'm like...
2:28
Oh, yeah.
2:28
He goes, oh, man, save me marriage.
2:30
Thanks so much.
2:32
Oh.
2:32
Yeah.
2:33
Oh, that's powerful.
2:35
Yeah.
2:35
Wow.
2:35
Well, for those people who have perhaps never heard the term before, can you just give us a quick synopsis of what the third space is and how it helps high performers oscillate from one role into the next without combusting or capitulating?
2:51
What is it in a nutshell?
2:52
Yeah.
2:52
Yeah.
2:53
Well, like the third space is that transitional gap between like the first space is what we're doing now.
2:59
So you and I talking.
3:01
Yep.
3:01
And the second space is what we're about to do.
3:04
So after this, I have a briefing call with a client.
3:07
And the third space is that transitional gap.
3:10
And what kept showing up in our research, and this came from multiple conversations, like I was talking to doing some work with the military, and I kind of said to the soldiers, like, what's the hardest thing you do?
3:23
And they went, oh, coming home is brutal.
3:26
And I went, what do you mean?
3:27
And they said, oh, I come home and I fight with the family for three weeks.
3:31
And what they talked about is how hard it is to transition.
3:34
And then, you know, I had a meeting with like an interaction with a CEO where he literally built a new entrance in the home because he came home one day from work.
3:43
And he noticed like he just caught a glimpse of the kids as they ran away when they heard him come home.
3:50
And he realized he came home and just kind of shouted orders at people and said,
3:56
So there was this theme.
3:58
And then even on a micro level, I found the really great leaders could reset after a meeting and they didn't carry the mood and mindset of what they've done into the next thing.
4:11
So it was this ability to almost like reset or or have some sort of circuit breaker.
4:18
And then with Deakin University, we did the research and we trial different
4:23
strategies in that transition so whether it was you know going from work to home or or home to work or one meeting to another or even you think about us like stepping on stage um you know like you really have to get your head in the game and even you know I worked with surgeons talking about how they transition when they're on call like they're at a barbecue and then they're cracking someone's chest and
4:51
Even one of them said, actually, where I use it the most is on non-surgical days where I go from one patient to the next.
4:59
He has two rooms.
5:00
So he finishes with the patient, walks into the next room.
5:04
And he said, I read your book.
5:06
And what I do is I actually pause and I hold the door handle.
5:11
And I think to myself, if my mom was on the other side of that door door.
5:16
Yeah, how would I want a physician to treat her?
5:20
And he said, I just do this like five second little reset, but it changes how I show up.
5:24
So the third space is that and how we apply it.
5:30
I love that.
5:30
And I love that with all of your work, but this in particular, it's grounded in really simple but science-backed micro strategies that we can all apply.
5:39
Because, you know, any convoluted, complex three-hour routine or protocol just doesn't work for high performers and it's not sustainable.
5:50
With a lot of the high-performing women that I work with, a lot of them will tell me,
5:54
that they experience something.
5:55
I don't know if you've ever heard of this term, Adam, but I shared it on Instagram and my DMs blew up.
6:00
I talked about this concept of role ricochet.
6:04
And so many high-performing women say they've got it nailed at work.
6:08
At work, they're in control, they're leading teams, they're making decisions, they're holding authority.
6:14
then they shut the lid on the laptop or they close down their desktop computer and they're thrust back into their role as mum, as wife.
6:21
Yeah.
6:22
And they're often trying to negotiate homework and sport pickups.
6:27
And they often feel that they've got these two sometimes conflicting identities, but without any transition points in between.
6:34
Yeah.
6:34
And so I would love for you to share what are some really simple, practical things that women can do to create that third space on like a day-to-day cadence.
6:45
Yeah, I mean, obviously, context is king here, and it depends on what you're doing and where you're transitioning and what your home environment's like.
6:54
But really, what we found in our research is there's three key steps in a transition.
6:59
So step number one is to reflect on what you've just done.
7:03
But most of us will reflect in a way of where we look at what sucked of, Oh, what didn't I do today?
7:10
And I didn't get back to that client.
7:12
Oh my God, that meeting was a disaster.
7:15
And we kind of have this really negative reflection.
7:18
And what we tried to get people to do was just reflect on, okay, what went well?
7:23
And this is not like wanky poly and a, uh,
7:27
crap, like, okay, all right.
7:30
Yeah, that didn't go exactly well, but at least I had a swing at it.
7:33
Or, you know, I tried to have that conversation with that person.
7:37
So what went well?
7:38
What did I achieve today?
7:40
And did I get better?
7:41
Like, did I evolve as a leader?
7:43
Was I more compassionate?
7:44
Or, so we got people just to reflect on those.
7:49
And then the second part is the rest phase, which is just where we come back to being present.
7:54
Because, you know, like you talk about those high achieving women, they're just blurring through.
8:00
They're running from one thing to another and they never really take that time to just recenter themselves.
8:06
And it can be a couple of seconds.
8:07
It could be a deep breath.
8:09
Yeah.
8:09
Yeah.
8:09
And then that reset phase is the last piece.
8:13
So it's reflect, rest, reset.
8:15
And the reset is, okay, what's my intention for this next thing?
8:19
What do I want to achieve?
8:20
You know, what's the outcome I'm after?
8:23
You know, whether it's, hey, I want to go into that meeting and I'm going to talk to one of my staff and I want to be compassionate.
8:30
I don't want to be judgmental.
8:32
I've got to go in and have a hard conversation.
8:35
So how do I not...
8:37
You know, talk about them as a person, but talk about them as their behavior that I'm unhappy with.
8:42
So what we found is that those three steps were crucial.
8:48
Like, how do I leave behind what I've just done?
8:51
Because too often, I mean, man, we carry the mood and mindset.
8:55
Like, I mean, people listening to this, have you ever had a bad day brought it home with you?
8:59
Or you ever had a bad meeting derails your day?
9:02
Yeah.
9:03
So it's like, how do I leave that behind?
9:05
How do I compose myself?
9:07
And then how do I reset myself for the next thing?
9:10
So I...
9:12
With our piece, what I transitioned into this today, you know, I was actually a couple of minutes late because I was so deep in this thinking about what do I want to do?
9:24
What's the impact?
9:25
How do I, like, Christy means a lot to me, so how do I make sure I give her listeners something that they can take away?
9:34
And start to really think about, okay, her audience is busy women who are trying to achieve so many things,
9:40
So, you know, even just that reset piece of what do I want to do?
9:48
So does that kind of make sense?
9:49
Absolutely.
9:50
And again, I love a three-pronged approach.
9:52
So that first part of reflecting, and I agree, we have a negativity bias.
9:57
You know, what's that saying?
9:58
Totally.
9:59
Any sort of negative feedback or experience, we stick to it like, you know,
10:04
Glue.
10:05
Super glue and any of the positive things are like Teflon and they just slide off.
10:09
So I love that forced moment where you are almost obliged to look for something good.
10:13
I often say look for the shiny and also acknowledge the shabby, but try and counter that negativity bias.
10:20
I love that you said that the rest can be even just something as simple as a breath.
10:24
Yeah.
10:25
I think many of us think that we need these really complicated, you know, protocols and practices to,
10:31
A sign two to three times will reset your nervous system, closing your eyes, sitting in the car for an extra minute before you walk in and bring the dregs, the emotional dregs of the day into your household.
10:45
You know, being more deliberate before you walk into that meeting room.
10:48
Yeah.
10:49
I love that.
10:50
And that third part of the reset.
10:52
Yeah.
10:54
Can you tell us about any of the high-performing women you may have worked with?
10:59
Any anecdotes, insights?
11:01
What has worked?
11:03
What do you see as sort of common denominators in the things that a lot of accomplished women are struggling with?
11:09
Yes.
11:10
And then from your perspective, what are some of the protocols and simple science-backed ways that can actually support them?
11:16
Around that transition into the home?
11:19
Well, around transitioning or around sustainable performance.
11:22
Because I think...
11:23
Okay, well, let's start with the transitioning piece so we kind of close that down.
11:31
this is a concept you want to take and make it very personal.
11:34
Like I had a single mom reach out to me.
11:39
She'd seen me present and she said, oh, man, I just got to tell you what.
11:43
She said, I sat in your presentation and I'm riddled with guilt.
11:48
Guilt.
11:48
And she's like, because I show up as the hurricane.
11:52
And she said how it works is, you know, obviously I share custody with my husband, like my ex-husband.
11:59
And so when I pick up the kids from childcare, it is two minutes down the road from work.
12:05
And she said, I always burst in.
12:08
I'm always late.
12:09
And I'm the hurricane.
12:10
And I look at my kid and I'm like, why don't you have your shoes on?
12:14
Like, where's your bag?
12:16
Yeah, we're late for piano.
12:17
And I'm screaming at my kids.
12:19
They start crying.
12:20
She said, that is literally every day.
12:23
And she said, all I did is called your office and said,
12:26
can you send me a JPEG of that, like, reflect, rest, reset thing?
12:31
And she said, I printed on a little card, put it on my dashboard, and as I drive to childcare, I do those three steps, and,
12:39
And she said, it just changes how I show up.
12:43
And, you know, I'm not perfect, but, like, that's what she did.
12:45
You know, I had a woman come up to me and said, actually, she was really pissed.
12:53
And she came up to me and she said, well, I don't have a third space because I just change jobs.
12:58
And I'm like, I'm at work, and then I go home, and I'll cook dinner, and I clean the house and do the washing and all that.
13:06
And she said, well, I can't have a third space.
13:10
And first thing I said to her is clearly, like, you're resentful about how the other people in your home are treating you and rightly so.
13:18
Like, it sounds like you're doing it all and that's a conversation you've got to have.
13:22
And I said, look, what the third space is more about is, like, how do you show up for that environment?
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And are you going to go home, like, like,
13:32
just angry, pissed off and have a really like an aggressive interaction?
13:39
Or can you use that space to regulate yourself to have a more constructive conversation?
13:44
And I said to her, look, the way my wife and I sort of split the mental load is, you know, one of the things I'm responsible for is food.
13:53
So the planning.
13:56
And that's the part I hate the most.
13:58
So I do the planning, the shopping, the cooking, you know, like I take she doesn't think about food.
14:04
I take care of food.
14:06
So every night I go home and I cook dinner and I said to her, you know, like I could walk in and go far out.
14:13
I've been like I've had this stressful day now to go to cook for these idiots.
14:17
And here's another thing I've got to do.
14:20
But what I do is I get my daughters involved.
14:22
They're 16 and 13.
14:24
And how I do that is, like, we've got a Sonos system in the kitchen.
14:28
They choose the music, and we cook dinner together and do karaoke.
14:34
And like, so we have this really fun interaction that, so what I do is prepare myself for, okay, well, as soon as I get in the door, I've got a job to do.
14:45
And I'd rather not do it, but it's the reality.
14:48
And how do I show up so I interact with my daughters in that really constructive way?
14:54
And look, one of the things I really do with my daughters, who are teenagers and not pleasant, is...
15:03
I'm just thinking I left this morning and, you know, you have an expectation about an interaction.
15:09
Like I knocked on my 13-year-old's door to say she's having a sleepover tonight so I won't see her.
15:17
And I was like, I wanted to tell her how much I love her and I was going to miss her.
15:21
And I knock on the door and she's like, go away.
15:24
What time was this?
15:24
Because as we're recording this, it is school holidays.
15:27
What time did you interrupt?
15:29
Oh, she was well and truly awake because she's got a netball camp.
15:33
But she's like, go away.
15:35
I'm like, what?
15:36
So anyway, I have this.
15:38
But when I go home at the end of the day, the thing I think about is how many years do I have with them?
15:46
Because it's been a freaking blur.
15:48
Like it has gone so fast.
15:50
And I just think I just don't want to be the guy that has that regret of I didn't use that time.
15:56
So that reset thing for me is you're going to go in.
16:01
They're probably going to be hideous.
16:02
But like how do you respond to that in a constructive way?
16:06
So, you know, I've seen women use this.
16:10
in different ways, whether it is like, I've got to pick them up for childcare or I've got to go home and do some domestic activities.
16:19
But yeah, that's what this concept's about.
16:22
How do you show up
16:25
Because when people see that presentation, the most common thing they say is work gets the best of me.
16:31
Yes.
16:32
And I walk through that door and I've got nothing left.
16:36
Like the people that mean the most to me get the worst version.
16:40
Yeah.
16:42
And that's what this concept is about is how do we stop that from occurring?
16:47
Yeah, when I posted that role ricocheted, one of the DMs I received from a woman.
16:51
I love that language, by the way.
16:53
Well, thank you.
16:54
But it articulates, like it encapsulates what so many of us feel like.
16:59
We're thrust, like that whiplash concept that...
17:02
we go and especially if we're in a role where we've got people following you know our instructions we've got some sort of locus of control and then perhaps we are slammed into a home environment if we've got young kids or we've got adolescents that don't even want to listen to us let alone do homework or contribute to the family cooking or the dance-a-thon that you're going to have while you do the cooking
17:24
And so it is that, yeah, forced transition.
17:28
Well, it's not a transition.
17:29
That's the problem.
17:30
It's the absence of a transition.
17:33
And I love that, again, you've provided.
17:35
I think what really stuck for me in that explanation you just provided us is the why we need to do this.
17:43
And I saw someone share something once, and I will admit I don't get this right all of the time.
17:48
But it was a post on, I think it was on Facebook, and it was Desire, it was with all the emotive music.
17:53
It was late at night.
17:54
You know, I read it and I'm like, oh, wow, that really stuck.
17:57
And it was a quote about when you walk into your home, do your children's faces light up?
18:04
Or are they the kids that are hiding from the hurricane?
18:06
Are they the kids that are hiding because dad's coming home in a terrible mood?
18:11
So I love that.
18:12
What I really loved what you said is that reminder that our most important human currencies –
18:18
our time, our energy and our attention.
18:22
And I often think we're living and working in ways where we think that they are finite and they're not.
18:26
And just remembering, you know, I often talk about how we have 4,000 Sundays in our lifetime if we're lucky.
18:32
You know, I often say good health is a privilege.
18:35
It's never a promise.
18:37
I've calculated roughly on average life expectancy, if I hit the jackpot with my health, that I have about 1,780 Sundays left in my life.
18:45
I know, do not tell me that.
18:48
I think you're younger than me.
18:50
I know, and I don't wanna live those as a brittle, like grumpy hurricane version.
18:56
So I think, you know, anchoring into your, why do you need to have these transition points?
19:01
Because I think for a lot of women, especially if you're a mother, there's still, I think, a really dominant narrative about motherhood being a martyr.
19:10
Oh, totally.
19:10
You know, if you're not burnt out and busy, you're not being a good enough mum.
19:15
I think the superwoman myth needs to be completely dismantled.
19:19
We do women a disservice when we revere them, saying that they're superwoman.
19:24
So I think giving yourself that gift of time so that you can show up
19:29
as the best version and remembering that some days your 60% is your 100%.
19:34
So it may not be the shiniest, best, you know, cupcake bearing mum when you come to pick up, but that 60% is enough for today.
19:43
Yeah.
19:44
That's important.
19:45
And if anyone's...
19:46
listening to this, who's part of a couple, like go home and have this conversation and not go home and go, right, I listen to this thing and shit's about to change.
19:57
Like it's not, you know, that aggressive.
20:00
It's this guy talked about this thing and it made me think.
20:05
And how do we do it for us and our content?
20:11
Because when my kids were young, I,
20:15
my third space would be I'd grab my dog and put the two kids in the pram and we'd go for a walk to the dog park.
20:23
Yep.
20:23
And Chris would get an hour to herself, right?
20:29
And that was just where she would decompress.
20:31
Yeah.
20:31
I think she just drank alcohol on the leg.
20:35
But so the first thing I would do is come home and take the kids away.
20:40
Right.
20:42
And that was good for me because I'm outdoors.
20:45
The dog gets a walk.
20:47
We go to the park.
20:48
The kids run around.
20:49
And then I would walk back.
20:50
And she just needed that time to decompress.
20:53
Now, it depends on your context.
20:55
But, you know, I've got some women I talk to who go, I just sit on the back deck and I have a glass of wine.
21:01
Yep.
21:02
And or, you know, I talk to a friend or it's about finding what can I do for that decompression just to reset my like, what do I need?
21:14
Yes.
21:16
So, yeah, very much have that couple conversation.
21:21
Um, and, and also have the conversation about, like, I was working with school principal.
21:27
She had teenage kids and she went home after the workshop and said, all right, how would you describe?
21:33
I come home.
21:34
And they went, Oh, grumpy.
21:36
And, you know, you'd nag us and you do this and you do that.
21:39
And she said, well, how would you like me to come home?
21:43
And the kids were like, oh, you know, describe this sort of euphoria.
21:47
And she said, well, for that to happen, you need to do this and this.
21:52
And she had a really hard conversation with the whole family of like, I come home and you expect me to do everything.
21:59
And she's like, that's why I'm pissed off.
22:02
Yeah.
22:03
And they had this conversation, put some boundaries in place.
22:07
And, you know, she talked about,
22:14
So have you worked with any women who are, for a lot of the women I work with, they're on the precipice of often exhaustion, if not burnout.
22:25
They're overloaded.
22:27
They're feeling exhausted, chronically stressed.
22:31
And we have, and we've got a growing body of research that's corroborating this, a really pronounced gender wellbeing gap with concerning more women than men experiencing stress and burnout.
22:42
Have you seen this in any of the work or data that you've looked at?
22:45
And what have you found that works for women?
22:48
Because I don't want us to marinate in the problem.
22:50
Yeah, yeah.
22:50
Any wins, case studies, anecdotes?
22:53
Yeah, okay.
22:54
Wow.
22:55
I'm just so mindful of mansplaining women.
23:01
to women how they but but literally this is my job and and i do research in this area yep all right okay so if i was to let me get my head around this for a second i think number one we have to like one of the things i've learned as a man working in this area is clearly like i i bring fresh eyes like i look at it from a different perspective um
23:27
And I think what every woman has to recognize is the fact that we've done a really good job on you guys in terms of we have screwed you over.
23:39
And the way we've screwed you over is just how deep and embedded that guilt around doing anything for yourself is.
23:52
Oh, wow.
23:53
Yep.
23:54
Like it's, as a guy looking upon this landscape from a researcher, like we have screwed you over big time because that, the guilt attached to doing anything or not being the central hub of everything or not pleasing everyone, I'm constantly surprised at how deep and entrenched that is.
24:23
Oh, actually...
24:24
Here is, I've never told this story before, but he, right.
24:28
So I'm doing a conference in the Gold Coast and it's to a predominantly female audience.
24:34
And this woman comes up to me afterwards.
24:36
She was wearing a hijab.
24:38
Yep.
24:39
Is that the right way to say it?
24:41
Hijab.
24:42
So she's got a headdress on and she's Muslim.
24:48
Anyway, we're having a chat.
24:50
She's so lovely, so charming.
24:52
Yeah.
24:53
And I said to her, how long have you been in Australia for?
24:56
And she said, oh, well, after I got shot in the war, they fast-tracked my visa.
25:02
And I was like, what?
25:04
Yeah.
25:05
And she said, oh, yeah, I got shot in Lebanon.
25:08
And I said, like, I've never met anyone who's been shot.
25:12
Can I ask you, what does it feel like to be shot?
25:14
And she said, well, I was running away and I thought someone had thrown a really big rock at me and it hit me in the side and knocked me to the ground.
25:24
And she said, like, you just don't understand the force at which a bullet hits you.
25:29
And then she said something that I'd never thought of.
25:32
And she goes, you've got to understand a bullet is red hot, like it burns.
25:38
And so she's walking me through this thing.
25:40
And then she told me about how...
25:42
her one-year-old daughter was killed in the war.
25:47
And she's telling me this story.
25:49
Like, I've got, like, tears streaming down my face.
25:52
She's crying.
25:53
And she was talking about how she had to live in a bunker for seven years.
25:57
And she showed me a photo of it.
25:58
And it's, like, the size of this, my office.
26:02
And she's, like, eight of us lived in this bunker.
26:04
And, you know, she came to Australia.
26:06
She said, I've built this beautiful life.
26:08
And anyway, she was talking about...
26:11
her life and I said well you know the thing I'm hearing from you is you never do anything for you and I said you got to do something for me and instantly the discomfort on her face was so she's like oh no no no I couldn't do that no you know what will my husband say and my mother-in-law and
26:32
And I'm like, you're freaking superwoman.
26:35
Like, you have survived being shot.
26:37
You've survived multiple wars.
26:39
You lived in a hole in the ground for seven years.
26:42
You lost a one-year-old daughter and you're still functional.
26:45
Like, you are superwoman, but I ask you to do something for yourself and it freaks you out.
26:52
Like, that's how good a job we've done on you guys.
26:57
And that a woman who can go through all of that, but the thought of self-care, that's what pushes her over.
27:04
Do you think, this is a big question to ask and you don't necessarily have to give me a definitive answer.
27:10
Do you think that's social conditioning and norms?
27:13
Do you think women are perpetuating that?
27:16
That, because I think there's a lot of, as I said before, that mother martyrdom mode.
27:21
There's a lot of women, you know, I shared something in my DMs on LinkedIn blew up this time around how women are secretly hoping to get injured or ill just for a couple of days of rest.
27:32
Yeah.
27:32
Because the thought of actually being proactive and taking a short break or investing in some self-care.
27:40
feels like such a foreign concept that we have to either wait until we've earned it.
27:45
And a legitimate socially acceptable way for a woman to rest is if she's injured or she's really ill. Yeah.
27:51
I saw a friend of mine who's a psychologist and she was visiting a woman in hospital who'd had a mental breakdown and she was basically in a psych ward and she was going to be in there for two weeks.
28:03
And she said, I looked at this woman and thought, oh, I'm so jealous.
28:07
Yes.
28:07
Yes.
28:08
No.
28:09
And this, do you know what, the number of high performing women who secretly will whisper that to me in a coaching call.
28:15
That's why I shared the post and what I called out is just because something is common because women are secretly harboring these desires.
28:23
You know, I had a woman once say to me, I was hoping just for a mild fender bender on the way to work.
28:28
It had just put me out of action for a couple of days in hospital.
28:32
But when we are fantasizing and romanticizing an illness or an injury to simply rest, I think we've got a problem.
28:39
And I say often something can be really common.
28:42
It doesn't mean that it's normal.
28:44
And the sheer fact that women are harboring these desires and whispering it to their friends or saying it to themselves, I think speaks volumes, as you said, about how entrenched people.
28:55
how conditioned we are.
28:57
I think it can circle back to our good girl training, our childhood and adolescence.
29:04
I wonder if social media is to play, you know, that perpetuation of that busy woman, the woman that struggles with boundaries.
29:13
I just, I'm curious.
29:15
I don't have an answer.
29:16
Yeah, look, I...
29:19
Look, I see this in my work.
29:21
I see this in my personal life.
29:23
I see this in my marriage.
29:24
Like I married an Italian woman.
29:28
So she's Italian Catholic.
29:29
So she has a black belt in guilt.
29:32
And her dad was a university professor.
29:36
And he really drilled into her that if you're not contributing, if you're not working, then you're, you know, you're not worthwhile.
29:45
So I've had to see her manage that.
29:49
And there's so many things that I just, and also friends that are married will say, you know, like my wife keeps saying yes to this.
29:58
And if that was me, I'd just go, screw you.
30:01
I'm not doing that.
30:02
So I, yeah, I,
30:05
I think understanding how deep that goes is a critical piece.
30:10
I think, look, one of the other things too, and this has come out of our research on burnout.
30:15
So we've done a lot of work on burnout, but we've also looked at it from a female perspective.
30:21
And what we've found is that one of the things that stops women from practicing self-care or doing these activities is they're waiting for that guilt to go away.
30:34
So they're kind of like, well, when that stops making me feel uncomfortable, then I'll do it.
30:40
And what we found is that discomfort doesn't go away.
30:44
It does diminish with action.
30:48
But like most of the women that were really good at self-care were kind of in their late 50s or in their 60s.
30:55
And...
30:58
we said to them, do you still feel guilty about doing that?
31:00
And they said every single day.
31:03
And we're like, well, how do you get over the guilt?
31:06
And they were like, because screw you, that's how.
31:10
Yeah, they get to a realisation where... You know what, I think this is a Christie hypothesis, but if you're suggesting they're in their 50s and 60s, biologically most of those women would have gone through, they would have completed perimenopause and completed menopause.
31:27
And we know that declining level, fluctuating and then declining levels of estrogen.
31:31
Estrogen is often colloquially referred to as our hormone of servitude and accommodation.
31:37
And when we do not have those high levels of estrogen as we don't have in our 50s and 60s, it's why women often say, I give less Fs.
31:46
And I hope we don't have to wait.
31:49
I challenge that because we've got a generation of really incredible, amazing women who are burning themselves out.
31:57
Yeah, I think this is why I love having conversations with you because I've never when we looked at that, we didn't think about the physiological side of things.
32:13
We focus on the psychological.
32:15
And when we said, OK, why are you doing it?
32:18
Yeah.
32:19
Each of them said the same thing.
32:21
And that was what I've realized is if I keep waiting for the guilt to go, I'm never going to do it.
32:29
So what it was was this capacity to sit with the discomfort of guilt, but still do the behavior.
32:39
Oh, that's so powerful.
32:41
Yeah, but it's freaking hard.
32:43
It is, and I think saying that, but for women who are listening, acknowledging and knowing there's no penultimate moment where that guilt will disappear, it's going to simmer in the background.
32:54
Let it simmer, but also know that you're worthy of having a break.
32:59
You are worthy of recovering.
33:00
You are worthy of rest.
33:02
There was some interesting research.
33:03
I don't know if you've seen it, Adam.
33:04
It only came out recently.
33:06
And this was with males and females.
33:08
And they talked about this doer identity.
33:10
Have you seen this?
33:12
And how the doer identities, its genesis is in childhood.
33:16
And often kids who are rewarded, praised, acknowledged.
33:20
It was like that good girl thing.
33:22
Yes, but this was across both males and females.
33:26
But ironically, that reward, praise, recognition that drove them to always be productive.
33:33
And that's why I think a lot of high performers, irrespective of their gender, often find rest so challenging.
33:39
It's that whole recovery paradox.
33:40
The people that need the rest the most are often the least likely to take it.
33:44
is because so much of our identity, particularly in modern life, is attached to doing.
33:50
You know, performance metrics, productivity is your marker of success.
33:57
Yeah.
33:58
We have to unpack that for our next generation.
34:00
Like your worth is not tied to your output.
34:04
Oh, God.
34:05
Oh, man.
34:06
We could go in so many different directions.
34:09
Look, actually, I've just had this thought.
34:10
So we did a research study where we looked at the burnout rates in school principals, so 1,200 of them, so big sample size, and we compared burnout levels of men and women in the same job.
34:26
Who do you think had higher levels of burnout?
34:30
Well, I would say females, but...
34:34
Exactly the same.
34:36
There was no statistical difference.
34:38
Now, what we looked at is the reason is that men are awesome at doing things for themselves.
34:46
So when I say to groups, you should take a day of no responsibility.
34:53
You should take a day where you remove agenda and productivity.
34:56
You should do something for yourself that makes you feel good.
34:59
Men go, far out, best idea ever, done.
35:04
What they suck at, though, is they are terrible at talking about what they're going through and reaching out for help and talking to their friends about it or going to see a counsellor.
35:16
Like men have that whole... Yeah.
35:19
Like we've done a job on women.
35:21
We've also done a good job on men, which is don't be weak.
35:25
Yeah.
35:25
Don't talk about your feelings.
35:26
And I've lost two mates to suicide, so...
35:30
This is very deep and very, very personal for me.
35:36
So women are great at connection and having people around them to support them and going to get help.
35:44
But they're terrible on the self-care.
35:47
I will do things for myself.
35:49
So what we found in our research is those two things kind of balance each other out.
35:54
And it's about, you know, how do we start, particularly, you know, with the audience you have, how do these high-performing women have that capacity to, well, I am going to take that time for myself.
36:09
Or I'm going to say no to that kid of, no, I'm not doing that for you because I'm doing something for me.
36:14
Or, you know, to that family member or to that friend.
36:18
So, yeah, that's...
36:23
That's what our data shows.
36:27
That's fascinating.
36:28
Look, there's so many threads that I could pull on from that.
36:32
In terms of what I shared some of your work a couple of years ago in my book where you talked about, because often we think that recovery has to be these big macro breaks, you know, big annual leave.
36:47
That's the only way I'm going to recover.
36:48
I need two weeks off and that's my recovery.
36:51
When I think both you and I know that the research tells us that we don't need big, I call them grande breaks, a bit like the big grande coffees.
36:59
It's those little piccolo breaks, you know, small but mighty.
37:02
They pack a mean punch.
37:05
What does your research tell us in terms of the types of recovery that does tackle, beat, defer burnout?
37:15
Yeah, I mean, this goes back to the mid-90s.
37:19
Like, I started doing this work on recovery and burnout.
37:24
I did a stint at the Institute of Sport, and believe it or not, one of the biggest challenges for athletes is burnout.
37:30
So...
37:32
And that's because the balance between overtraining and undertraining is so fine.
37:37
And if you overtrain an athlete, it compromises their immune system.
37:41
They get sick.
37:43
So what we would do is, and this is the mid-90s, so we're a bit prehistoric.
37:48
We just used to, like, train them so hard, like so hard.
37:53
And when they started to fall apart, then we'd bring in recovery, right?
37:59
And kind of back off their training.
38:02
But, you know, one of the head scientists down there, a guy who was in charge of the physiology lab, just went, kind of we take two steps forward, then we take a step back.
38:11
Like, there's got to be a better way.
38:13
And it sounds ridiculous by today's standard.
38:18
What we discovered is the key to preventing burnout is.
38:21
was short, regular, consistent bursts of recovery.
38:27
So how our attitude changes, recovery is something you do when you fall apart.
38:33
It became, well, recovery is part of training.
38:37
And so what we started to do was embed these bursts, these micro, you often refer to them as micro recovery, but those short, regular, consistent bursts every day, every week, every month,
38:51
And what we saw is not only did burnout drop, but performance went up.
38:56
And we found the same thing with our research in corporate or in business.
39:02
Same deal.
39:03
Like, as you talked about, when we interviewed people who were burnt out, we said, okay, you recognize you're burnt out.
39:09
What are you going to do?
39:11
And the only answer was, oh, man, I've got a holiday in three months.
39:15
I'm just going to flog myself.
39:17
And then I'm going to go to Bali for two weeks and that'll fix it.
39:21
But what we know, it's either Queensland University or QUT University.
39:27
have been doing this cool research on holidays.
39:30
And what they show is the benefits of a holiday disappear within three weeks.
39:34
So you're back to where you were three weeks before, like after three weeks of returning back to work, you're back to how you felt before the holiday.
39:45
Yeah.
39:46
So, yeah, sure, have your holiday.
39:48
You definitely need that.
39:49
You want to do that.
39:50
But also insert these micro moments of recovery.
39:54
Yeah.
39:56
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant advice.
39:58
Now, your other book that I really like, Strife, Equally Well Loved, I really like this idea that you make the case that chasing happiness is the wrong target, that meaning comes from the struggle itself.
40:13
And I think we live in a modern hedonistic world where we...
40:20
avoid challenge.
40:21
You know, we avoid stress.
40:24
Stress we see as something really negative.
40:29
We sometimes think that if something's hard, we must be failing at it or we need to avoid it.
40:35
Have we pathologised difficulty?
40:39
Tell us a bit about the book Strive.
40:42
Why do we need effort?
40:44
Why do we need to choose challenge over comfort in our modern lives?
40:47
Yeah.
40:48
Yeah.
40:49
Look, how Strive came about is we were doing a very large research project with Deakin University, and we were looking at performance.
40:56
Yeah.
40:57
And like, you know, that whenever we do research, we do a mixed method model.
41:03
So we might survey people, but we also get people to do diary studies.
41:07
We get people to do interviews.
41:10
You know, we try to go really deep with our research.
41:13
And what kept coming up is we were looking at things that cause growth and skill building and competence.
41:21
And typically when you think about like a flow state, you know, you're super engaged, like you want to do it.
41:30
It's very difficult.
41:32
It requires lots of skill, time.
41:35
Time disappears, but there's also a level of enjoyment in that, like where you're in the zone.
41:41
And you would get this in presenting where you're just like, I crushed today.
41:45
Yep.
41:48
So what we found is people said, yeah, flow's awesome, but the stuff that really makes me grow
41:56
requires high level of skill, is difficult, but I don't actually want to do it and I'm not enjoying it.
42:06
So they said the things that make me grow the most, I actually would rather not do it.
42:12
So it's something that I have to force myself into and it's not enjoyable.
42:18
It's like the hard conversation or it's the...
42:22
you know, I'm doing a presentation and I haven't had time to really prep for it.
42:26
Or it's, you know, I have to hold a boundary around my well-being or I have to push back on my leader and go, I'm just so overwhelmed.
42:36
I can't do that right now.
42:38
So what we discovered is it's the hard stuff that makes us grow and evolve.
42:43
That's kind of the, but most people look at that and go, well, that's bad.
42:48
you know, that, that, that, and particularly the happiness movement has done so much damage on this where, oh, there's a woman, Barbara, she wrote a paper called the,
43:00
the negative side of positive psychology.
43:04
Clever.
43:04
She said this line, like she's so articulate.
43:08
She said, the message we've given society is positive emotion is good and good for you.
43:14
Negative emotion is bad and bad for you.
43:16
But the problem with that is growth comes from the discomfort, and that's what strives about is growth.
43:24
And I often ask people in my presentations to do an activity where they come up with the thing they're most proud of.
43:32
And it's always, and they can't use their kids, by the way.
43:35
That's one thing I tell them.
43:36
It's like left a bad relationship, changed careers, ran a marathon, a marathon.
43:45
you know, went for the promotion, even though I didn't really think I'd get it.
43:50
What they talk about is the hard, like that's what builds their self-esteem and pride.
43:56
So yeah, that's what Strives all about is our relationship with challenge and struggle.
44:00
Yeah.
44:01
And I think more than ever that we need to switch the language because I think we often shy away from physically challenging things these days.
44:14
You know, we live because of technology, because of instant gratification, because of our modern easy lifestyles.
44:22
I think we're becoming ill-equipped to deal with psychological stress because we're often less experienced and less adept at dealing with physical stress.
44:30
So that's why I'm a huge proponent around, again, doing science-backed protocols, but things like...
44:37
Deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure, vigorous physical activity.
44:41
I know that that's something you're passionate about too.
44:44
Yeah.
44:45
And I think we've really got to stop this vernacular that stress is bad and that hard things should be shied away from.
44:51
There's some absolutely, I'm sure you've seen it, but some groundbreaking research in terms of they've done brain scans.
44:58
Have you seen this around the anterior mid-cingulate cortex?
45:01
Yes.
45:01
So that being that willpower center of the brain.
45:04
And they've found that this region of the brain that basically is your part of your brain that says, I can do hard things.
45:10
Yeah.
45:10
That part of the brain is physically larger in athletes, smaller in obese people, meaning that we can train our brain to do hard things.
45:19
Yeah.
45:20
So it's not fluff.
45:21
And I know you're very much against well-being fluff.
45:23
When we start to look, are there any other things that you think people could be considering on top of, you know,
45:29
cold exposure, exercise, learning a new language, basically, like you said, anything where you've got to step out of your comfort zone.
45:37
Yeah.
45:38
Look, I mean, anything that makes you uncomfortable, and clearly we don't want to be...
45:44
in a perpetual state of discomfort, you know, because that would lead to burnout.
45:49
But we want to not shy away from that difficult, challenging stuff.
45:55
And it's funny we're talking about this because, like, over the last 18 months I've been learning to sing.
46:01
And I had a lesson this morning, yeah.
46:04
And so...
46:08
To help with performance?
46:10
To help with your, like, stage performance?
46:13
No, no, just for joy.
46:14
Good on you.
46:15
I love that.
46:16
The two best things I've done for, or the two things that have made the biggest amount of impact on my well-being...
46:25
Well, one of them is to put hobbies back in because all I had in my life was fitness, family and my business.
46:35
Yep.
46:36
And so what, so I've inserted hobbies back in and one of them is singing.
46:42
Love that.
46:44
Like my range suits like Pearl Jam, like Eddie Vedder.
46:49
I definitely don't have the tone that he has, but I can sing those songs really, really easily.
46:55
But my teachers got me singing God Only Knows by the Beach Boys and Radiohead.
47:01
And if you know those two, like they're super high, they're very gentle, whereas I'm like I'm a metal head.
47:09
So like I want the hard rock stuff.
47:12
And I just had this lesson this morning.
47:15
And at the end of it, I was like, bar out, that sucked.
47:18
And I did not enjoy it.
47:20
And my teacher said to me, yeah, the reason you didn't enjoy it is because you're the type of person who likes to grow and evolve.
47:29
And she said, you could come here.
47:30
We could sing easy stuff and have a great time.
47:34
But you want to get better at the craft of singing.
47:37
And that requires discomfort.
47:40
And she was like, kind of like, well, that's the guy you are.
47:45
And she said, I'm exactly the same.
47:47
I like to challenge myself.
47:49
So she said, there's going to be many times when you come here and you'll walk out and go, Oh, I hated that, but you will have grown from it.
47:56
So, you know, it's that ability to be uncomfortable and rather than go, Oh, I didn't enjoy that.
48:01
So I'm quitting.
48:03
Yes.
48:03
Like, well, that's, that's part of the process.
48:07
So I think it is, it's having things that challenge you and even, um,
48:14
like in the workplace, like we had a meeting with someone external yesterday and we, and a staff member and I were debating something and arguing about something.
48:26
She thought it should be structured this way.
48:28
I was like, nah, it should be this way.
48:30
And we were having this like heated debate and argument.
48:35
And after a while, I just went, actually, do you know what?
48:39
You're right.
48:40
Like,
48:41
Now that you've pointed that out, your way's better, my way's not.
48:46
Let's just go with what you've got written down.
48:49
And afterwards he said, man, I've just never seen people in a team have debate like that and then move on so quickly.
48:58
Wow.
48:59
And what he was talking about was just that it's really great that you were able to, like, be uncomfortable and challenge each other and then, but it didn't have this lingering resentment.
49:13
So I think people in the workplace view that,
49:18
you know, if there is discomfort, that's bad.
49:21
Yes.
49:21
And that means something's wrong.
49:23
Yep.
49:25
But you've obviously built that psychological trust in your team for you to have that robust conversation.
49:30
Very true.
49:31
To be finished and we move on.
49:33
There's no lingering resentment.
49:35
I know you've talked a lot about resenteeism.
49:37
Yeah.
49:38
As well, that you've obviously got that really solid foundation of trust and safety that you can challenge ideas.
49:45
You can have as a leader, your ideas challenged.
49:47
Yeah.
49:48
And that's built over time.
49:49
Like that doesn't.
49:52
Yeah.
49:53
And, you know, particularly with that person, it's, it's,
49:58
like we have the type of relationship that allows that to occur.
50:02
Yes.
50:02
But what it led to was just that ability to be uncomfortable led to a better outcome.
50:09
Yeah.
50:09
And I think the problem is in so many meetings we hold back, we don't speak up, we keep our ideas to ourselves, and we don't get the richness of that.
50:20
So I'm just...
50:23
Yeah, I think what's happening is our inability to be uncomfortable is holding us back in so many aspects of our life.
50:33
Oh, that's so powerful.
50:34
I agree.
50:34
I hadn't thought of it like that because it is having a ripple effect on so many parts of our lives.
50:40
Yeah.
50:41
Just a performance lens.
50:43
Yeah.
50:43
And, like, even with my kids, I see this.
50:47
Yeah.
50:49
you know, like I've really tried to get them to embed and embrace challenge.
50:54
Yep.
50:55
Definitely hasn't worked out as well as I did.
50:58
But like as parents, so I'm going to tell a story, but like –
51:09
I struggle in so many areas of my life.
51:11
Like, I don't think I'm a very good leader.
51:13
I could definitely be a better parent.
51:15
So the stories I'm telling you are the good ones.
51:18
Like, it's not got this all together because I definitely don't.
51:22
But, you know, my kid got in trouble for doing something at school and she definitely deserved to be in trouble.
51:32
And the school called me and I had a conversation and this woman went, so like, we're going to,
51:39
give her a detention on Friday.
51:42
And I'm like, yeah.
51:44
And she kind of went, oh, you're all right with that?
51:46
And I went, yeah, because she deserves it.
51:49
And I said, well, how many is she going to get?
51:52
And the school was like, we're going to give her one.
51:53
And I'm like, how about four?
51:58
And they were like, what?
52:00
And I went, because she was so out of line.
52:03
Like, she's really got to learn that lesson.
52:05
And what that person said on the phone is, oh, usually parents don't want that to occur.
52:11
Like, they argue against detention.
52:14
I'm like, no, she should have a consequence for that.
52:16
So I think also with your kids...
52:19
Don't shy away from, like, it's not going to hurt them.
52:22
It's not going to break them.
52:24
It's not abuse.
52:25
It's not shame.
52:26
It's just, hey, kid, you messed up.
52:29
Guess what?
52:30
There's a consequence to that.
52:31
Yeah.
52:32
And look, this is a very...
52:34
loose Christie hypothesis, but I think we have a concerning generation of young people with really significant anxiety and some mental health challenges and not the only contributing factor.
52:45
And I'm not minimalising it.
52:48
But I think one of the chief reasons of our mental health crisis that we have with young people is that we have stopped asking them to do hard things.
52:56
Yeah, totally.
52:57
We have cushioned their lives.
53:01
We sweep in, you know, whether you're a helicopter parent or whatever variation of parent that you are.
53:06
And I think that the greatest thing we need as humans is that challenge.
53:12
That's what we have to do.
53:14
We are biologically wired to do hard things.
53:18
And also, like, the negative emotion is a normal reaction.
53:22
Yes.
53:23
So I was talking to a school principal who the parent called and said, my kid can't come to school today because they've got anxiety.
53:30
And he kind of went, well, anxiety about what?
53:35
Oh, he's got to do a presentation today and he's feeling anxious about it, so I'm keeping him home.
53:42
And he said to the parent, like, of course he has anxiety.
53:45
If I asked you to come in and do a presentation, you'd have anxiety.
53:49
So I think what we've done is demonized a perfectly normal reaction to
53:57
that is negative but is normal.
53:59
Like my daughter did something.
54:01
She shouldn't have done it.
54:02
She should feel like regret.
54:05
She should feel not shame but.
54:08
Yeah, that spectrum of emotions.
54:11
Yeah.
54:11
Yeah.
54:11
Like, you know, it shouldn't be, oh, well, you're a bad person.
54:15
But, hey, kid, you did something really bad.
54:17
Like, and that's not good.
54:18
And you feel bad about it.
54:21
That's why that's the right feeling.
54:23
Like I'm not trying to snap you out of that.
54:26
Yeah.
54:27
Yeah.
54:28
Well, Adam, I'm going to close out in a moment.
54:32
I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and I feel like we will need to have a part two.
54:36
Definitely.
54:38
I would love to know in closing out, this podcast is called Spacious Success.
54:43
And whilst it is geared towards females, I'd love to hear as a male, what do you do?
54:49
We heard a little bit about your hobbies.
54:51
I know that health and fitness is a priority.
54:54
What is it that you do so that you can experience this spacious, successful life with the remaining precious time that you have left?
55:04
Yeah, I mean, the fitness thing is very important.
55:07
I'm lucky in that I enjoy exercise.
55:10
Like I look at people who don't enjoy it, not with judgment, but with, oh man, that's going to be tough.
55:16
Like, so I exercise, you know, most days.
55:22
um try to reduce alcohol and uh and obviously eat well um look i do a lot of work around my own recovery so every day i do um some sort of relaxation exercise like a you know an app on my phone that i listen to each day uh to give me that sort of um
55:46
you know, that really downregulate my nervous system.
55:49
I think one of the other things I do is, you know, I practice singing each day, which is 30 minutes to myself.
55:56
I find it very cathartic.
55:57
I find it almost...
55:59
a little bit spiritual.
56:01
So that's, and then obviously hanging out with my family and spending time with my wife is something I do daily.
56:11
Every week, you know, this, I go to Manly and do a swim.
56:15
We've often had breakfast after it where I'm shivering, but yeah, like I'll do a swim and that's definitely not about sort of cold water immersion.
56:25
I don't know.
56:26
It just, it fills up my carpet.
56:27
Yep.
56:28
it lights me up for some reason.
56:31
Once a month, I am very aware of the fact that males get very lonely and everyone in my family is a female and everyone in my staff is a female.
56:45
So once a month, I go to the racetrack and race my car around the racetrack.
56:53
And hang out with a bunch of guys and we talk about tyre pressure and suspension and brakes and no one brings up Taylor Swift or hair care or...
57:05
Yeah, it's where I go for my male bonding and my testosterone.
57:10
Testosterone top up.
57:11
Yeah.
57:12
I love it.
57:12
Very much.
57:13
And, you know, obviously on the weekend I try to really disconnect and be present and get away from technology.
57:20
So, yeah, they're the things I do to sustain myself.
57:25
Brilliant.
57:25
And I think the biggest thing that I've taken out of today that has nudged me to look at what I do is to consider hobbies.
57:33
I asked a coaching client, a female client recently, and I just said to her, what do you do for fun?
57:39
And you would have thought I asked for her stance on a political issue or...
57:43
something very polarizing and her face just went blank and she genuinely couldn't answer what she did for fun.
57:49
And so, yes, and I'm like you, I love exercise, but what is it that's that, that hobby where you enter that flow state where you lose track of time?
58:00
You've spurred me on to figure out what that is.
58:03
Yeah.
58:04
And just if I can take a minute on that, I ask people,
58:09
in my workshops, like, what do you do each week that lights you up?
58:13
Like, what do you, what fills up your cup?
58:15
What do you do for you?
58:17
And what I notice is most men go, oh, I do this.
58:22
But most women, not only do they not have it, but the most common response I get is people come up to me, like women come up to me and go, oh,
58:32
oh, man, I've neglected myself for so long.
58:35
Like not only do I not have it, but I don't even know what I would do.
58:40
Bingo.
58:42
Yeah.
58:42
So that's a big one.
58:44
Yeah, well, I'm going to encourage listeners to hold yourself to account, to think of a hobby, a pursuit, an activity, something that fuels you, that lights you up, that you derive pleasure from.
58:56
There doesn't have to be an outcome attached to it.
58:59
It may not be a racetrack.
59:01
It could be artistic.
59:01
It could be dancing.
59:02
Yes, just something that really inspires you.
59:06
I'm really grateful for your time, Adam.
59:10
This has been a great conversation.
59:12
Oh, my God, I've loved it.
59:13
It's been the highlight of my week.
59:15
Thank you.
59:16
I'm hoping you're not, hopefully you're not saying that just because it's holidays and you're juggling.
59:23
If our listeners want to.
59:24
Angry teenagers.
59:25
Angry teenagers.
59:25
Yes.
59:26
If our listeners want to find out more, where can they find out more about your work?
59:30
Adam is a keynote speaker and a workshop facilitator and does some fabulous work across a range of industries.
59:37
Can you give our listeners just a little bit of an insight into what you do and where they can find you?
59:41
Yeah, just dradamfraser.com is my website.
59:44
You know, I'm on all the socials.
59:46
And really, I spend my time in three areas.
59:49
Like you, I present a lot.
59:52
So that's one area.
59:53
Second area is research.
59:55
So we do a lot of research with different universities.
59:58
We just completed the world's biggest study looking at the impact of secondary trauma on educators.
1:00:04
Wow.
1:00:04
Wow.
1:00:06
Yeah, which is a big problem.
1:00:08
And the third area is we do like large programs and design programs for organisations to achieve outcomes.
1:00:16
Brilliant.
1:00:16
So that's us.
1:00:18
Fabulous.
1:00:18
Well, thank you for your time.
1:00:20
I really appreciate your insights, your powerful observations.
1:00:24
And don't forget, Adam's great books.
1:00:25
And you've got a third book.
1:00:26
You've got another book coming out too, don't you?
1:00:28
Yeah.
1:00:29
Yeah, it's a bit early.
1:00:31
I'm still trying to finish it.
1:00:33
You're striving with that one.
1:00:35
But in the meantime, you can grab Strive or The Third Space.
1:00:40
They're my two favourites.
1:00:41
So thank you for your time, Adam.
1:00:43
I'm deeply grateful.
1:00:44
And I will chat to you offline.
1:00:46
Thank you.
1:00:46
Soon.
1:00:47
Thank you.