Latest / Go Long Podcast / ‘Just Give Me A Chance to Fail:’ A chat with Paul Domowitch on his Sam Mills biography

Transcript

‘Just Give Me A Chance to Fail:’ A chat with Paul Domowitch on his Sam Mills biography · Go Long Podcast

0:00
[music]
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Greetings everyone, how's it going?
0:26
SPEAKER_00: This is Tyler Dunne with the Go Long Podcast and one of my favorite things
0:31
SPEAKER_00: that we do is catching up With authors like Paul Damowicz right there.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Damo, an absolute legend in the Philadelphia sports scene.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: How many years have you covered the Eagles, Paul?
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, officially 39 before I took the buyout from the paper in late 2021.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: And then I cover them on Substack sporadically now.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: Did a radio show for a little bit for about three years before I lost our sponsor.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Hey, that's the ultimate blessing in disguise is going independent,
1:12
SPEAKER_00: letting your voice be heard, unshackled to the upteenth degree.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Paul has always kept it real just from afar.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: I have so much respect for the way you've covered this league,
1:23
SPEAKER_00: covered this team,
1:26
SPEAKER_00: that crew that was with Bob McGinn back in Back in the 80s,
1:31
SPEAKER_00: 90s, I just love seeing the legends stay in the game.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: It's needed.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot of pandering out there.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to sound like an old middle-aged man.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: And there are young beat writers who do a damn good job.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to just broadly stroke this take.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: But, yeah, there's a lot of people out there who just want the likes and retweets.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that Tyler.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm a big fan of yours too.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Hey, everybody out there, do yourself a favor and buy Paul's book.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Sam Mills, just give me a chance to fail the life of NFL Hall of Fame linebacker Sam Mills.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: I just got the book.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to dive into it tomorrow.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: So this is kind of instructive as well to kind of pick your brain and learn
2:32
SPEAKER_00: about everything that led to the decision to,
2:35
SPEAKER_00: you know, when you write a book, I've only done one.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: And Seth Wickersham told me this once.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: If you take out a book project,
2:43
SPEAKER_00: you better be unbelievably passionate about that topic because it is going to be at
2:50
SPEAKER_00: the forefront of your brain day in, day out.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: You've got deadlines to meet.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: You always have one more call to make.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm sure you've been asked this on your whole podcast tour promoting the book, but...
3:03
SPEAKER_00: What led you to Sam Mills?
3:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the absolute Hall of Famers, legends.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: We don't know a lot about him,
3:10
SPEAKER_00: I think,
3:10
SPEAKER_00: nationally, like we should, but you specifically, Paul, what led to this project?
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm really old, Tyler,
3:18
SPEAKER_01: so I covered Sam when he first got into pro ball with the Philadelphia Stars back
3:24
SPEAKER_01: in 1983.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: So I knew his story, and
3:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, didn't know it all.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: But so, I mean,
3:35
SPEAKER_01: I just found it fascinating from the very beginning that,
3:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
3:40
SPEAKER_01: a stats-obsessed league just would not give a 5'9 linebacker a chance,
3:45
SPEAKER_01: even though they could see with their own eyes on film
3:48
SPEAKER_01: that this guy was dominated everywhere he played in high school,
3:52
SPEAKER_01: Division III football.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Division I colleges wouldn't even give him a chance.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: So there was that.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: And then his whole career, you know, which I covered while I was covering the NFL.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they built a statue to him in Carolina after playing there just three years.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, who does that, you know?
4:10
SPEAKER_01: And then,
4:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
4:11
SPEAKER_01: his tragic battle, short battle with cancer at such a young age and dying at 45.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And then
4:21
SPEAKER_01: I lobbied for him for years for the Hall of Fame.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: He didn't make it in until 2022 in his last year as a modern era candidate.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: This is a guy whose coach in Philadelphia,
4:35
SPEAKER_01: Vince Tobin, who also coached Mike Singletary in Chicago.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: Openly acknowledged that Sam was a better linebacker than Mike Singletary,
4:47
SPEAKER_01: who went into the Hall of Fame in his first year.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, I just,
4:52
SPEAKER_01: all of that put together,
4:54
SPEAKER_01: when I decided to write books after I got out of the newspaper business,
4:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Sam just jumped to the top of the list of people I wanted to write about.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't go look for a publisher until the book was done last year.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Wow, really?
5:10
SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to be rushed.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to tell this story completely,
5:14
SPEAKER_01: and I think I did maybe 80, 85 interviews with players, coaches, friends, family.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to make sure that when I was done, that I felt I was telling his whole story.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: That's phenomenal.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of sports books out there.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: Where you read it,
5:39
SPEAKER_00: and as a sports writer,
5:40
SPEAKER_00: you can tell,
5:41
SPEAKER_00: okay, this is somebody who did a lot of reading, to their credit, a lot of research.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: Such a respect for writers, reporters like Paul who get 80 to 85 fresh interviews on this topic.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: So you know you're going to glean some new intel that hasn't been out there, right?
6:02
SPEAKER_00: What was, I mean,
6:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's a lot,
6:05
SPEAKER_00: but what was something that you learned that Blew your mind when it came
6:08
SPEAKER_00: to Sam Mills.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: You know,
6:13
SPEAKER_01: early on when I was, and I,
6:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:16
SPEAKER_01: like I said,
6:16
SPEAKER_01: I covered him from 83,
6:17
SPEAKER_01: but didn't really look into back then how close he came
6:23
SPEAKER_01: to never playing professional football.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know,
6:25
SPEAKER_01: if not for the USFL,
6:27
SPEAKER_01: He becomes a high school teacher,
6:28
SPEAKER_01: which is what he had a job doing right before the USFL came about and
6:33
SPEAKER_01: after he got cut by Cleveland and then the Toronto Argonauts.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Amazingly, the Toronto Argonauts cut him.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Jim Garrett, who was Jason Garrett's father, everybody knows Jason from NBC and the Cowboys.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: And I learned the influence.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: He's the one that signed him to Cleveland,
6:57
SPEAKER_01: convinced Sam Mortigliano to give Sam a shot with the Browns in 1981
7:03
SPEAKER_01: after he went undrafted.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: And he had a terrific training camp.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Bill Cowher was on that team.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: I talked to Bill Cowher about him and he and Sam were friends.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: They became friends that summer.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: You know,
7:17
SPEAKER_01: he was just shocked that Sam didn't make it,
7:19
SPEAKER_01: but it came down to Marty Schottenheimer not believing his eyes.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Marty was the defensive coordinator.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: He just couldn't believe a 5'9 linebacker,
7:27
SPEAKER_01: even if he just watched him for,
7:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:29
SPEAKER_01: for seven weeks dominate in camp,
7:31
SPEAKER_01: he just could not believe that this guy could survive in the NFL with tall,
7:36
SPEAKER_01: tight ends catching passes over him and bigger offensive linemen blocking him.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know,
7:45
SPEAKER_01: It was Jim Garrett who after, you know, he befriended him, told him never to quit.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Sam tried out with the Stars after the league started up and wasn't sure he wanted
7:58
SPEAKER_01: to do that.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they offered him a contract.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: But he didn't know if it would last three days, let alone three years.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: He had a job.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: He had a family that he was already starting.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: So he wasn't sure he could really afford to take another gamble.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: But it was Jim Garrett who convinced him, give it one more shot.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: You owe it to yourself.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, basically the rest is history.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he becomes the,
8:26
SPEAKER_01: along with Reggie White,
8:27
SPEAKER_01: probably the most dominant defensive player in the USFL,
8:31
SPEAKER_01: follows Jim Moore to the New Orleans Saints and then goes to Carolina
8:34
SPEAKER_01: with Vic Fangio and,
8:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:37
SPEAKER_01: becomes a four-time Pro Bowler,
8:40
SPEAKER_01: three-time All-Pro and a, you know, a player who defied the odds.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's,
8:45
SPEAKER_01: he's When you were asking me about why I wrote about him,
8:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:49
SPEAKER_01: you always like to write stories, Tyler, that inspire people, that move people.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, his story, the underdog story is just so incredible.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is,
9:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't think you even have to be a football fan to appreciate Sam's perseverance
9:07
SPEAKER_01: and overcoming what he overcame to become the great player he became.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: That's a great way to put it.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Whether you like football or not, there are just incredible life lessons to take.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Imagine being 5'9 and everybody's telling you, you're not going to make it.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Not just telling you, you're not making the team in high school.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: He initially isn't on the high school field.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: What was inside of Sam then?
9:32
SPEAKER_00: What was his reason to just say, you're all wrong, I'm going to make it?
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Initially, in high school, He wasn't sure he was good enough either.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was,
9:45
SPEAKER_01: it was his,
9:46
SPEAKER_01: you know, every,
9:47
SPEAKER_01: every great player seems to have a high school coach who turned out to be
9:50
SPEAKER_01: the great influence in their life.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Not every player, but, uh,
9:54
SPEAKER_01: he had one Frank laser guy came to long branch high school, Sam's sophomore year.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, he had been all over the place,
10:03
SPEAKER_01: a lot of different high schools up and down the Eastern seaboard.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: So a couple of small colleges.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: And he quickly realized that he had something special in Sam.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: And he taught Sam two things.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: He taught him the importance of training and working out and being in a better shape
10:20
SPEAKER_01: than the guy across from you, which Sam embraced and took the rest of his career.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: The other thing was he taught him how to watch film.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: This is the 70s, Tyler, back then.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm five years older than Sam was.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of realized, I mean,
10:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:39
SPEAKER_01: Film back then was not considered important,
10:41
SPEAKER_01: particularly at that level, if only because the technology wasn't very good.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was like watching your family's vacation films,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: the greeny vacation films when you're watching film.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of guys don't even know what they're watching.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: They're just watching people run around, watching themselves.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Frank Lazor taught Sam the importance of knowing what you're watching,
11:03
SPEAKER_01: knowing what you're,
11:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:05
SPEAKER_01: as a defensive player,
11:06
SPEAKER_01: what the offense is doing,
11:08
SPEAKER_01: the tendencies,
11:09
SPEAKER_01: the formations,
11:10
SPEAKER_01: you know, Sam, I mean,
11:13
SPEAKER_01: besides being incredibly talented,
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Sam was always a step ahead of the guy in front of him,
11:18
SPEAKER_01: the offense in front of him,
11:20
SPEAKER_01: because he knew what was coming and he was always able to relay that
11:24
SPEAKER_01: to his defensive players around him,
11:26
SPEAKER_01: which was why You know, every defense he played on was so great.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, New Orleans Saints and the Dome Patrol linebackers,
11:34
SPEAKER_01: probably the best group of linebackers that ever lived.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: You know,
11:37
SPEAKER_01: he goes to Carolina and that defense dominates and helps take them
11:41
SPEAKER_01: in their second year of existence to the NFC Championship game.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's unheard of.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I mean,
11:48
SPEAKER_01: watching film became kind of, Everything that made Sam great besides his talent.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: 1,265 tackles over the course of his 12-year career.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Like as a,
12:09
SPEAKER_00: a nineties kid, uh,
12:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:11
SPEAKER_00: born in 87 coming up on the NFL through the nineties that my memory of Sam Mills is
12:15
SPEAKER_00: in Carolina, NFC championship game at Lambeau field.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: And I, I didn't really realize this until I was reading the inner flap of your book here.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: He was 37 years old as a stud, all pro first team, all pro on that Panthers defense.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: That's incredible to be doing what he was doing that late into his career.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: He was 36 when they signed him, Tyler.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: Nobody else,
12:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the New Orleans Saints basically, they were in disarray at that point.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Jim Finks had died.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: They had no idea how to deal with the salary cap.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: They were in the same division as San Francisco,
12:54
SPEAKER_01: unfortunately, which was added, you know, misery to there.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: But they basically told Sam Mills,
13:00
SPEAKER_01: who had given them the nine incredible years, He became a free agent.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: He intended to stay in New Orleans.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: And they told him to go out and check the market out and get back to them,
13:13
SPEAKER_01: which he found is incredibly insulting,
13:15
SPEAKER_01: just like every other player who's been told that has.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, Sam...
13:20
SPEAKER_01: Sam was an incredibly loyal guy and he really took offense to the fact that
13:25
SPEAKER_01: the Saints didn't give him that loyalty back.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: Vic Fangio had left New Orleans to become Dom Capers' defensive coordinator in Carolina.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: And as soon as Sam became a free agent and Vic realized that
13:41
SPEAKER_01: the Saints didn't make him an offer,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: he went to Bill Pulley and the general manager and Dom Capers and said,
13:47
SPEAKER_01: hey, we got to sign this guy.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he may be 36, but he hasn't lost a step.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: And we're an expansion team.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what does an expansion team need?
13:56
SPEAKER_01: It needs a leader, a veteran leader who can teach the guys around him.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: And that's what Sam brought to that Carolina team,
14:03
SPEAKER_01: which is why I think Jerry Richardson,
14:06
SPEAKER_01: the owner,
14:07
SPEAKER_01: a former player himself,
14:10
SPEAKER_01: was so appreciative after Sam retired that he felt he needed to build a statue
14:15
SPEAKER_01: to this guy because he realized what he had meant to that team in just three years.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And that keep pounding slogan that you hear all the time in Charlotte,
14:25
SPEAKER_00: for those who don't know, that started with Sam Mills, right?
14:27
SPEAKER_00: And his battle off the field, if you want to touch on that.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: After he retired in 98,
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Tyler, he debated between getting into personnel and getting into coaching.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: Jerry Richardson basically told him,
14:40
SPEAKER_01: name the job in the organization that you'd like and it's yours.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: So Sam had tried personnel for about a week and realized he needed to be with
14:49
SPEAKER_01: the players and hands on.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: So he became a coach and he was,
14:53
SPEAKER_01: you know, he became, first year he was assistant linebackers coach.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: After that he became the linebackers coach,
15:00
SPEAKER_01: was on a fast track to become a head coach in the NFL.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was just,
15:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:04
SPEAKER_01: we've seen so many great players that can't become coaches because they can't relate
15:09
SPEAKER_01: to guys who don't have the same intensity or talent to them.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, that was not Sam.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: Sam was able to relate to great players who were first round picks and guys like him
15:22
SPEAKER_01: that were undrafted.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: So, you know,
15:26
SPEAKER_01: he was on the fast track,
15:27
SPEAKER_01: but in 2003,
15:29
SPEAKER_01: in training camp,
15:31
SPEAKER_01: he gets sick and he's diagnosed with cancer and they give him three to four months
15:35
SPEAKER_01: to live.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're 43 years old,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: you know, in the prime of your life and being told you're about to die.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: So he, A, wouldn't accept that.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was going to fight it.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: He stayed on as a coach.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: The team supported that.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: You know,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: that year,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: that 2003 year that he was diagnosed,
15:55
SPEAKER_01: they go to the playoffs two years after being 1-15.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: Before the Dallas Cowboys playoff game,
16:02
SPEAKER_01: their first playoff game that year, John Fox, the head coach, comes to him.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: John Fox had...
16:10
SPEAKER_01: He every week would pick somebody to dress the team the Saturday after
16:14
SPEAKER_01: the Saturday walkthrough.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: That Saturday he picked Sam because Sam had missed some time because of
16:21
SPEAKER_01: the chemo treatments and everything,
16:23
SPEAKER_01: but he was about as healthy as he had been in a while.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: And he asked Sam to talk.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: He had no idea what Sam was going to say.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: They're on the practice field after practice,
16:33
SPEAKER_01: and Sam gives the keep pounding address,
16:37
SPEAKER_01: which might be the most inspirational speech beyond the gipper,
16:44
SPEAKER_01: which is embellished, that there probably ever was.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this team goes out.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: They had lost to Dallas two months earlier in the regular season.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: They go out and just kick Dallas's ass and make it all the way to the Super Bowl
17:02
SPEAKER_01: that year before losing the New England Patriots.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: And to this day,
17:07
SPEAKER_01: every one of those players and coaches will tell you that keep pounding speech
17:11
SPEAKER_01: that Sam gave,
17:13
SPEAKER_01: which basically the essence of it was,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: he said, people think you guys have kept me going.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: Or that I've kept you going with my cancer battle.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: And he said, it's you guys that have kept me going.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: And he said,
17:33
SPEAKER_01: he pointed to spots in the year when they needed a blocked extra point
17:40
SPEAKER_01: with no time left to send the game into overtime and win it.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: He's saying nobody wins games like that.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: We did.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: He said, you can never give up.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: I've learned from you guys that you gotta keep pounding.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: You gotta never give up.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: And so that became his mantra, became the team's mantra.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: To this day, Tyler,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: it's stitched onto the jerseys of the Carolina Panther uniforms, keep pounding.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: They, you know,
18:09
SPEAKER_01: in Montclair,
18:10
SPEAKER_01: at Montclair State,
18:11
SPEAKER_01: they give bracelets to the kids, the players with the keep pounding message on.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a, there's a keep pounding cancer fund down in Charlotte.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: There's a 5K run.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you name it, it's got keep pounding on it.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: It's, I mean,
18:28
SPEAKER_01: we're talking,
18:30
SPEAKER_01: 23 years later, and his legacy because of the keep pounding speech still lives on.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: It's just amazing,
18:38
SPEAKER_01: which is,
18:38
SPEAKER_01: you know, I mean, that was one of the reasons I wanted to write this story.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, you get chills just hearing that.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine being a player,
18:49
SPEAKER_00: knowing the situation,
18:50
SPEAKER_00: knowing the stakes, knowing that Sam Mills right here has days, months to live.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: What did players tell you?
18:59
SPEAKER_00: About that speech and what's going through their mind.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: Because like you said,
19:05
SPEAKER_00: you try to think back to some famous speeches and nothing really compares to a Hall
19:10
SPEAKER_00: of Fame talent who's now your coach,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: who's been there, done that, yes, but is on his proverbial deathbed.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: And he knows it, trying to will you to be something greater.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine what's going through their brains listening to that speech.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of them, Tyler acknowledged that they cried.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they were, I mean, there were tears running down their cheeks as he's talking.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: You know, just, you're right.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they, I mean, Sam was still, he didn't look like a man that was dying.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, which is, which is the amazing part.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: I talked to him seven months before he died.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: I went down there to do a story on him.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Carolina was playing the Eagles that week and it was in October of 2004.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: And we spoke for an hour on the practice field and he looked like he could go out
20:03
SPEAKER_01: and make 12 tackles.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I couldn't believe he was dying.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: I also couldn't believe,
20:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the thing about his battle with cancer was the way he dealt with it.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how I would do it, but it wouldn't be like he did it.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: He had not one ounce of self-pity from the start.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: He's told three, four months to live.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: He just decides, I'm going to fight this as long as I can.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: You know,
20:34
SPEAKER_01: he was running steps at that Super Bowl that they made in 2004,
20:37
SPEAKER_01: less than five months before he died.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: He's out there that morning of the Super Bowl.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: A few days before,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: they didn't even think after his chemo that he'd be able to get on a plane
20:47
SPEAKER_01: to get down there to coach it.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: He's running the steps.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, that's, he gets to the end, Tyler, and he's planning his own funeral.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's planning the speakers.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: He's asking people what, He's telling the caterers what he wants them to feed the people.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: He has funeral cards made with his picture on them,
21:16
SPEAKER_01: kind of that look like football cards,
21:17
SPEAKER_01: but instead of stats on the back,
21:19
SPEAKER_01: there's Bible scriptures, his favorite Bible scriptures.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Dom Capers, who was then coaching in Houston, Sam died two days before the 2005 draft.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: The Panthers call Dom and say, Sam wants you to speak at his funeral.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: And Dom,
21:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, you know how important the draft is to NFL people.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, no matter,
21:48
SPEAKER_01: it could be their own mother or father that die and they probably are going to say,
21:52
SPEAKER_01: yeah, I can't make it.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Dom gets on the next plane out and is in Charlotte and speaks
22:00
SPEAKER_01: at his memorial service and says,
22:02
SPEAKER_01: you know, the draft be damned, you know, you guys can handle it.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, his...
22:08
SPEAKER_01: I talked to a friend of mine who read the book a couple of weeks ago.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: He's on the beach in Jersey, Tyler.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: He said he was crying as he's reading the last few chapters.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: You know,
22:17
SPEAKER_01: as a writer,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: that's kind of like really kind of as heartbreaking as this story is,
22:23
SPEAKER_01: it's nice that you told it well enough to make people have that kind of emotion
22:27
SPEAKER_01: when they're reading it.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: So it made me feel good that he appreciated Sam's story.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: There have to be just an infinite number of life lessons that we can take
22:39
SPEAKER_00: from Sam Mills, his life that we can apply to ours.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: And as you're kind of breaking down how he's planning his own funeral and he's
22:46
SPEAKER_00: at peace and there's no self-pity, I apologize to our listeners.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: I've referenced this book a handful of times, but the comfort crisis is incredible.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm just finishing that one up on...
22:57
SPEAKER_00: You know,
22:57
SPEAKER_00: somebody throws himself into the Alaskan wilderness and kind of ties
23:01
SPEAKER_00: into why we need to do hard things as human beings to find fulfillment.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things he does is he goes to the Bhutan, the Bhutanese.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: They're in like the Himalayas and they're known as like the happiest people on earth.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: And so he's researching why are they so happy?
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And he goes out there,
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Michael Easter, the author, and what he finds out is they are at peace with death.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: Like these people, They talk about death.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: They think about it two, three times a day.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: They're not afraid of it.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And when you face it, you live a more fulfilled life.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: You live a happier life.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I think next to Disneyland, the Bhutanese are known as the happiest place in the world.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: But I don't know.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: There's probably so many things we can take from Sam Mills.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: But to you, what's near the top of the list, getting to know him like you did for this book?
23:56
SPEAKER_01: We're around today, Tyler, so many players that can be real buttholes to the public.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Sam and his family appreciated this when I was talking to his sons.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: When he became a pro bowler in New Orleans, obviously he was a hero in that town.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Everybody knew him by sight.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: He goes to a mall, they mob him.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: He told his family that he will never turn an interview,
24:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:29
SPEAKER_01: like if somebody comes up to him in a mall and wants to talk,
24:34
SPEAKER_01: he told his family, you just gotta respect that.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Step away and then let me do what I have to do because I'm never gonna turn down
24:42
SPEAKER_01: a request for an autograph for, you know, no matter what the circumstances.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: Sam always believed that he owed much of his success To these people, to the fans.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, he became, everywhere he was, he was the conduit to the fans.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: You know,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: when he got to Carolina,
25:05
SPEAKER_01: besides teaching the players,
25:08
SPEAKER_01: these young kids how to play,
25:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Carolina,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Charlotte,
25:12
SPEAKER_01: The entire Carolinas,
25:13
SPEAKER_01: that's NASCAR in college basketball country back then in the mid-90s.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: They didn't know pro football.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: They didn't care about pro football.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: And here's a team that's trying to sell PSLs and make these people appreciate this team.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Not only that,
25:28
SPEAKER_01: but they had to spend their first year playing in Clemson,
25:32
SPEAKER_01: which is like two hours away from Charlotte.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: They basically were a road team their entire first season.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: Which Sam had done with the Stars his last year.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: So he kind of had experience with that.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: So he was the guy that the Panthers used to send out to do appearances at shopping malls.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: They needed somebody to talk to the media that day.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: He was the guy that happily went out and talked to them.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was Sam.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: He never...
26:06
SPEAKER_01: He never let whatever he was going through affect the way he dealt with other people.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I did 85 interviews, 80-85 interviews, Tyler.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Not one single negative word about this guy.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: He was...
26:22
SPEAKER_01: A lot of it was his faith.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was not a guy that ever,
26:25
SPEAKER_01: you know, I never heard him mention Jesus, but he lived that kind of life.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, he didn't feel, he had a, you know, his mother was a Baptist.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: He was one of 12 kids and he had a sister that became a minister.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of that was drummed into him, but he lived it more than he talked it, you know?
26:51
SPEAKER_01: And so all of that is, you know, just, it is what makes this guy so inspirational, I guess.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Remarkable.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: I love what you mentioned earlier too on Jim Garrett.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, it takes one person to believe somebody's got to open that door and give you a chance.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's, uh, God, I think, uh, Like Marty Schottenheimer couldn't get past that five.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Like it was when I was working on blood and guts,
27:20
SPEAKER_00: the tight ends book,
27:21
SPEAKER_00: it was Marty was,
27:23
SPEAKER_00: he wasn't really sure about Antonio Gates,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: he had to kind of get talked into,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: yeah, we got to keep him around practice squad on the 53.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: He's going to be special.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think it was Tim Brewster,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: the tight ends coach who put him through a workout and this basketball player,
27:37
SPEAKER_00: like you just,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: you need somebody that believes somebody that gives you the things outside of
27:41
SPEAKER_00: the box.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's probably something we can all take
27:44
SPEAKER_00: to is like any preconceived notions you have on, on anybody like it.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Think, think about it in a different way.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: You know, Sam Mills five, nine, everybody's saying no.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: And one of the greatest linebackers in NFL history,
27:56
SPEAKER_01: you know, Tyler,
27:57
SPEAKER_01: here's a, I mean,
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Jim Mora who would ultimately call Sam Mills, the greatest player he ever coached.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And as we all know, uh, Jim also happened to coach a quarterback named Peyton Manning.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, When he first met Sam, it was with the Philadelphia Stars.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Jim had been hired two weeks before training camp because their original hire,
28:20
SPEAKER_01: George Perlis,
28:21
SPEAKER_01: quit before they even played a game to become the head coach of his alma mater,
28:26
SPEAKER_01: Michigan State.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: So Jim steps in.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: He didn't even hire his staff.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Vince Tobin was his defensive coordinator, and he didn't know Vince from Adam.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: So they go to training camp.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: They're like second day of training camp.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: They're having a meeting at night, the coaches and the personnel department.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: And they're going through each position, ranking the players.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: And he asks Vince to rank his defensive players and his linebackers.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: And Vince mentions that Sam Mills is his best linebacker.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: And Jim says, you got to be kidding me.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: He said, he's five foot nine.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: He said, people will laugh at us if we play this guy.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is the guy that would later say he's better than Peyton Manning.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: So to thank God for Sam,
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Vince Tobin,
29:14
SPEAKER_01: who would stand,
29:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:16
SPEAKER_01: as people told me,
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Bill Kahark,
29:17
SPEAKER_01: who was the player personnel back then,
29:20
SPEAKER_01: said he, you know, Vince Tobin was, he came from Canada.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: He had been in the CFL recently.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: He didn't care who Jim was.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: He would have said this to Bill Walsh.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: He would have said this to anybody.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: He said, hey, you know, you're the boss.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: You want to do whatever you want.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: But if you cut this guy,
29:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:38
SPEAKER_01: you're cutting your best defensive player and we'll have to start from scratch.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: And to Jim's credit, he backed off.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: It took a few weeks to watch this guy and realize that Vince was right.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Without Vince Tobin and without Jim Garrett,
29:58
SPEAKER_01: one thing leads to another and we don't have a Hall of Fame player,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: we don't have a book, we don't have a great person that everybody knows about.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: It's funny how that works, but you're right.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: You could even take it a step further, Tyler.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: The coach at Montclair who called Jim Garrett because Jim had coached this guy,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: McKinley Boston, with the Giants for a couple of years.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: When he's telling them about Sam,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: back then,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: now even Division III players, they've got film, they know about everybody.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, Garrett didn't know a whole lot about Sam,
30:38
SPEAKER_01: and McKinley Boston's telling them about Sam And every now and then,
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Jim will say, well, how tall is he?
30:44
SPEAKER_01: How big is he?
30:45
SPEAKER_01: And McKinley Boston would keep avoiding that.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh, he's 5'11".
30:53
SPEAKER_01: And Jim Garrett doesn't realize that he's only 5'9".
30:59
SPEAKER_01: So he works them out at his house.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: Jim Garrett had this huge backyard in Monmouth Beach.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: He was raising seven kids, including Jason Garrett back then.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Lived in this huge house across from the beach.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's where he worked out guys, you know, small college guys and stuff.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: They would come there.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And he got over the, you know, Jim got over the 5'9 thing.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Marty Schottenheimer wouldn't, but...
31:26
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you need somebody to enable you to give you the break that you need.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: You know,
31:33
SPEAKER_01: the funny thing is Jim Moore later,
31:35
SPEAKER_01: his great quote,
31:37
SPEAKER_01: Throughout Sam's career was low man wins,
31:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:41
SPEAKER_01: because he might've been 5'9",
31:43
SPEAKER_01: but you got to get under people's pads,
31:44
SPEAKER_01: no matter how big or small you are,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: which is why,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:48
SPEAKER_01: you don't see a lot of,
31:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:50
SPEAKER_01: what you're seeing more of them now, 6'7", 6'8",
31:54
SPEAKER_01: offensive and defensive linemen,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: but back then nobody wanted them because you couldn't get under a guy's pads.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, Sam didn't even have to bend his knees to get under a guy's pads.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: And could pancake offensive linemen that were 70 pounds heavier than him and six inches taller.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
32:12
SPEAKER_01: it's just a tremendous story about the help he got from people like Tobin
32:17
SPEAKER_01: and Jim Garrett.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: It takes a little fibbing, too.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: It's so funny that he was mentioned in 5'11".
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Tim Brewster,
32:27
SPEAKER_00: I want to say after the Gates workout with the San Diego Chargers,
32:30
SPEAKER_00: was telling Jimmy Ray III,
32:32
SPEAKER_00: director of college scouting,
32:33
SPEAKER_00: I talked to Jimmy for the book,
32:35
SPEAKER_00: he's lying about his 40 time,
32:37
SPEAKER_00: I believe,
32:38
SPEAKER_00: and like this and that,
32:38
SPEAKER_00: just embellishing it just to get that foot in the door because he knew,
32:42
SPEAKER_00: get him in there, he'll do the rest.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Everybody, please do yourself a favor.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Get this.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: What's the best way to get it?
32:54
SPEAKER_00: I know Amazon's one click away, but you tell us, Paul.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Amazon.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: It's in most Barnes and Nobles.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: You can order it on BarnesandNoble.com as well.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm doing book signings all over the place.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: I'll be down in Charlotte in October, New Orleans in October, November.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: Gonna be up in Long Branch,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: New Jersey,
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Sam's hometown next month for a book signing and a celebration of his life.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's not hard to find.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: You can get it pretty much at any bookstore, at least order it.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: You won't be disappointed.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: We'll have the links in this post as well.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Just give me a chance to fail the life of NFL Hall of Fame linebacker Sam Mills, Paul Domowich.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: This was awesome.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for hanging out.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: And everybody, sign up for the Substack, too, because you're still at it.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Eagles, NFL.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: What is the name of your Substack again, Paul?
33:49
SPEAKER_01: PaulDomowich.Substack.com.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: The Substack is called TushPush.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: All right, we'll promote that as well.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for hanging out.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Let's definitely do it again and maybe talk some birds down the line.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that there'll be a topic or two down those lines.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Tyler.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Good talking to you.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Paul.