Latest / The Front / Does Anthony Albanese finally get it?

Transcript

Does Anthony Albanese finally get it? · The Front

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: It's Friday, December nineteen, twenty twenty five. Anthony Albanezi is
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: pivoting hard to deal with the problem of anti Semitism.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: After an exhausting week in which we've all felt what
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Jensen calls a continental shelf of rage and grief,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the federal government will legislate a crackdown on anti Semitism
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: and hate preachers from universities to border force.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Today.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Yonnie Bachan and Nicholas Jensen join me to debate how
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: things will play out from here. For this episode, I
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: was joined in the studio by two of the Australians
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: most thoughtful people, opinion editor Nicholas Jensen and senior journalist
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Yonnie Bashan. The first voice you'll hear is Nicholas.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: Everything still feels very raw and I think the emotion
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: is kind of ratcheting up.
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: What's been both your reads. I suppose that the last
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: twenty four.
• 1:07
  Speaker 5: Hours disappointment after disappointment after disappointment until today, I felt
• 1:13
  Speaker 5: that the Prime Minister's announcements today and the government's announcement
• 1:16
  Speaker 5: on what they were going to do were welcome, overdue
• 1:20
  Speaker 5: and still clearly in development. They're clearly scrambling for answers
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: to this. But I think these are solutions that should
• 1:26
  Speaker 5: have been supplied months ago. I don't know why he
• 1:28
  Speaker 5: had to wait another four days to announce them, but
• 1:29
  Speaker 5: here we are.
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, overdue. I think a lot of people are thinking that.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I think the Prime Minister's attitude from the beginning of
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: this crisis has been shock and horror, like so many
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: of us felt initially. But then I think he went
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: very quickly and probably too quickly, towards But isn't Australia great.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Isn't it wonderful that brave people stepped up and more
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: lives were not lost. Then he started talking about gun
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: law reform, and that's where I think he completely misread
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: the mood. So it is only on Thursday, four days
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: after the crisis, that the government, the Commonwealth Government, has
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: begun talking seriously about recalling Parliament and indicated that they're
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: now working on hate speech laws, cracking down on anti
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Semitism in terms of language and acts, new visa rules,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: and dealing with the hate preachers who have helped create
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: so much of this environment.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Yesterday I looked at the transcripts of some of the
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: interviews he did doing the media rounds, and when he
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: got up today at Parliament, he was reproducing a lot
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: of those stock lines that he has about what the
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: government's doing.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: And you do get the sense that he's.
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: Kind of almost like an earnest bank clerk, is running
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: through a.
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: Checklist that he's satisfied that he's got right.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: But my sense is that he's not tapping into the
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: mood or tapping into an emotional register that people want
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: from their national leader. There's this continental shelf of rage
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: and grief, and people want that reflected, I think in
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: their leader.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the.
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: Other grave misstep that I think he and other ministers
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: have made is defending their record on this for the
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: last four days, saying well, we've done more than any
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: other government has done, and we've done this, we've done this,
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: and we've thrown money at this and that, and then
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: a few days later saying well, we clearly haven't done enough,
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: and now we're going to scramble in, pull all these
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: other resources together and enact all of the solutions that
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: you've been asking for for months. I think that just
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: betrays a leader and a government that is in a
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: tactical war to try and bet this down, rather than
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: a government that actually sees and diagnoses a problem and
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: tries to fix it. I mean, if I had to
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: use a word to describe the government over the past
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: few days, it's that it's misdiagnosed the problem the entire time.
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: I mean, what was the first thing that Anthony Albinizi did.
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: He started looking at gun law reform. That's great, but
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: that's scratching at the age. It's the root course of
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: the problem is this anti semitism issue. And for whatever reason,
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: and we all have our theories on it, the government's
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: just been in and dial about how to handle this.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: It was only on Thursday that the Prime Minister admitted
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: that he's done things wrong. He hasn't done things perfectly
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: since October seventeen, twenty three, and the change in tone
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: in twenty four hours is remarkable and I think I'd.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Love to know what you guys think.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: There can be no denying that this is because Josh
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Frodenberg went down to Bondi Beach and made a speech
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: that hit all the notes that the Prime Minister has
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: failed to hit in the past few days. It was raw,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: it was angry, it was emotional, and it's set out
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: very logically the intellectual progression from antisemitism as an idea
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: to violent action.
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: I almost feel in my cynical heart of hearts that
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: talking more about ISIS and magnifying the role of ISIS
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: in this provides an escape patch for the Prime Minister
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: not to talk as much about anti Semitism, because Isis, yes,
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: is anti Semitic, but ISIS is actually just she had
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: us an anti Western and I worry that that has
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: been strategic and possibly tactical in its deployment outwardly. What
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: this government has done is push Israel away further than
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: any other Australian government has done in generations. And that
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: would suggest that Anthony Albinezi, which is talking about him,
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: just doesn't like Israel very much. And he was also,
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: i believe, the convenor of Labor Friends of Palestine several
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: decades ago.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: That's right, This is student politics kind of for grown ups,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: isn't it. You know they were both labor from their
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: adolescence and labor left, and one of the shibbiliths of
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: the labor left is that Israel is a colonizing state
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: and is illegitimate. Free Palestine is kind of what they
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: bang on about at Young Labor meetings on university campuses.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: The difference in October seven, twenty twenty three is that
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: that idea then spilled into the mainstream and became a
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: thing on social media that Abby Chatfield was talking about.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: But why then, when most are the kind of sensible
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: adults who are on that progression that you have from
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: uni leftism to sensible center, why were they not able
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: to go with the grown ups.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: It's often said that since he's been PM that he
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: is trying to find a more consensual position and more
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: centrist position. I should say that appeals to a broad
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: Australian electorate and not be too politically left or so on.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: But I suppose when it comes to issues like Israel
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: and other things too, you do wonder whether the old
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: activism is just below the surface.
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: My take on it is they don't hate Israel. Yeah,
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: they like Israel. I don't know why Anthony Albanezi hasn't
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: just gone to Israel. That really amuses me. I'm still
• 6:26
  Speaker 5: confused as to why Penny One went to Israel and
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: didn't go to the southern villages. That just makes no
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: sense to me. I don't believe that these people despise
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: or dislike Israel, and they definitely don't feel that way
• 6:36
  Speaker 5: about Jeus.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: I think they like Jews.
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: I don't think there's any reason for them not to.
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: I just think they're political animals and they want to
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: win elections, and I think that's what this is about.
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: At the end of the day.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: One of the saddest things that's unfolded in the past
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: couple of days is seeing people being targeted for either
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: being Jewish or for helping Jews. Mister Ahmed, the hero
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: to back and as who crash tackled the shooter, has
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: been criticized by people in his own Muslim community for
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: helping Jews. Jewish businesses a smoke salmon bagel shop in Bondi,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Various bakeries have been publicly targeted with one star reviews
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: or zero star reviews just because they are Jewish. And
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: you can see that there is a targeted campaigning going on.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: You told me earlier today about businesses you know who
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: you feel are retreating from public Jewishness. Is that a
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: new development because of the violence, or is it exhaustion
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: from seeing no action being taken and resulting in this.
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: I don't think we can discount the exhaustion, that's certainly true.
• 7:46
  Speaker 5: But what I can tell you is that after October seven,
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: and I'm talking about in the months after October seven,
• 7:51
  Speaker 5: Jewish business has experienced a wave. For some it would
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: have been a trickle one. For others it would have
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: been a wave, but they would have received a lot
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: of hate either of their eyes, you know, people spitting
• 8:01
  Speaker 5: in front of their shop, or it would have happened
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: online in the ways that you described. And I think
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: the difference now is that whereas then the worst that
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: could happen is words can never hurt me. It's you know,
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: unlike sticks and stones. After an incident like we had
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: to over the weekend, we know that this is much
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: more real than any.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Of us have dreamed.
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: And so I think that's why people having second thoughts
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: about how they want to express their identity publicly. I
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: think that's one of the saddest parts about all this.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: The Prime Ministers now appointed David Gonski, who is proudly Jewish.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: He's a very senior Australian businessman. He's been Chancellor of
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: the University of New South Wales for twenty years to
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: lead a review and a forward looking report recommending how
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: universities should handle antisemitism in the future.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: God, there's a lot to do in universities, isn't there.
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: Nick, Yeah, there is. I know we've all spoken a
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: lot about it.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: I suppose on the Gonski appointment, from what I've read
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: and can see, is that he probably hasn't been at
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: the spearhead of university leaders speaking very openly and vocally
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: about this. Two weeks ago, Jennifer Westercott at Western Sydney
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: University spoke out very very strongly about these things and
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: actually was I think probably the only university leader that
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: spoke in great detail about how students were being sanctioned
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: and they were taking discipline reactions.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: So that's kind of my take.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: How does either Anthony Alberanezi or Josh Freedenberg persuade Australians
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: that they're going to have to accept some limitations on
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: free speech? For example, are we going to be allowed
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: to chant globalize the interfata anymore? The UK has now
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: banned that phrase and said that people will be arrested.
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: And by the way, who else chances that phrase the
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: Union movement Unions for Palestine will hold up science saying
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: quite globalized, the anti fighter, but Unions for antifarter that's awkward.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've already accepted the banning of Nazi symbols of
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: the Heil Hitler gesture. Yeah, so now it's about persuasion
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: for Albanize, isn't it?
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: It is?
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: But I think this problem exists right across the spectrum.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: I think there's also a massive reckoning here on the right.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: It's a massive reckoning among those that might identify themselves
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: as say classical liberals or of a kind of right
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: wing philosophy of that kind. And you know, I broadly
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: associate myself with that, And I think that means that
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: you have a very high bar for free speech, and
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: that means you have people like David Irving allowed to
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: come into Australia, you know, probably the world's most infamous
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Holocaust denio.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: Who has been banned over the past forty years from
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: entering this country.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: Yes, and then also we had Candae Owens that recently
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: got knocked back to some extent. The old classical liberal
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: line essentially goes from the assumption of these people are
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: provably wrong on their substantive points, their falsifiers of history,
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: and what they are spouting is perversion. And I think
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: in the past that position has kind of been okay
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: because social media didn't really exist in the same way,
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: and I think a lot of people could assume a consensus,
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: mainstream opinion out there that would know these people are wrong.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: Now I do not think that exists, and I'm not
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: coming here with answers to that, but I think this
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: is part of the problem, is that everything is now
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: so shattered.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: How do we stop what happened on Sunday?
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: People are going to have to change, you know, maybe
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: that some pretty fundamental things about what they believe.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Coming up more of my conversation with Nick Jensen and
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Johnnie Bishann't.
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: Can I ask you, Claire, you know one thing I'm seeing,
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: and I know I'm echoing the views of a lot
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: of people, is that we're seeing more conviction out of
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: Chris Mins than we are out of the PM. And
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: there are certainly some people out there who would be
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: thinking to themselves, why isn't that guy our prime minister?
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: This just for the week?
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: What is it about men's that makes him different from
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: Albanesi in terms of how he feels about this and
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: why is he more believable and credible.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: He's phenomenally articulate. Mins.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: He's in the labor right as opposed to the labor left,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: so he doesn't have a position to defend in terms
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: of Palestine. Josh Frodenberg was critical of Chris Mins though
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: that was a moment for Mens. Frodenberg said, well, Premier,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: the marches over the harbor Ridge happened in you state.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he did try and stop him.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, but as Fredenberg said, he did try and stop it.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: The police went to the Supreme Court and got rejected.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Frog said, will change the law. What have you thought
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: as everyone says, wow, Christmas is amazing this week.
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: Well, he just seems to.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: As we were talking before about the kind of emotional
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: register or trying to trying to capture the mood of
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: the public, he seems to do that in the way
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: Albanezi just can't. And he speaks very fluently, and also
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: before this crisis though whenever there were questions about anti
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: Semitism and even other issues, he doesn't seem tightly managed.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: He seems like he's someone who's prepared to respond on instinct,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: and that serves him very very well.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: He never talks about the rules based global order, does he, or.
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: Programmatic specificity or anything like that. But contrast that to Elbow.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: I mean the thing with Elbow to some extent is
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: that he can reach that emotional register. Take, for instance,
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: when the Pope died, it was very clear that he
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: was deeply moved by that.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: He was very articulate too about the social media ban
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: for under sixteens. He spoke about the grieving families who'd
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: come to see him and begged him to take action,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and he was doing it. You don't often get two
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: opportunities in public life, Yanni. Do you think we will
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: see him visit Israel in twenty twenty six.
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: I think it would be prudent if he did. I
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: don't think any harm would come if he didn't. I've
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: always wondered, again Penny Wong, our foreign minister not going
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: to the southern villages in Israel. I don't understand what
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: political capital was gained or held by doing that. I
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: saw only political capital being burned. I saw nothing good
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: having come out of that. And I feel the same
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: way about Anthony Albanezi. What is lost by visiting Israel.
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: What is betrayed by visiting Israel? But what is given
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: up by not going? Well everything, No one believes that
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: you truly identify and connect with this issue if you
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: can't go and shake hands with Bibi Netanyahu and visit
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: the Southern the Southern village.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I see yourself. I know that that's important.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: But I would really like to see whether he might
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: go down to the Great Synagogue. I'd really like to
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: see what would happen here if he did that. Now,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: if he did that, now he went to.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: An interfaith service at the Catholic estrue.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: He did he did? Now?
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Actually, I think yesterday was kind of a big day,
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: I reckon in the history of this country.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: Had a lot happened.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: You know, Friedenberg's down there delivering this huge speech that
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: seems to be a landmark. We had this extraordinary moment
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: on the steps of Saint Mary's at this interfaith service
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: that you referred to, where the archbishop is chiding the
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: Prime minister. I mean it's huge. It's like Daniel Mannix
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: around the time of the referenda for World War One,
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: criticizing our Billy Hughes say, it's a pretty extraordinary thing.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Nick.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: In many years from now, we're going to be looking
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: back on these events. You'll be recounting them to maybe
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: your grandkids. Even what is the most striking memory of
• 16:00
  Speaker 5: Sunday that you're going to be recounting to them.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: One image that I won't forget is of one of
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: the gunmens seeming to water away are passers by as
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: he was shooting into the crowd of Jews celebrating Haneker,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: as if to say, I'm not interested in killing you,
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I'm only interested in killing Jews.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: That's the moment that shows that this was connected to
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: anti Semitism, right that.
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, can be no other can be no other response
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: to that.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I suppose I'll never forget people sprinting in terror from
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the sand at Bondai Beach.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: We've seen shark alarms before.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: We usually think the peril is in the water and
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: we've all got the jaws them in our head when
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: we go to the beach. We've seen people run out
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: of the water in fear. I've never seen people run
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: from the sand in fear at this place, which is
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: you know, so deer all of our hearts as Australians.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: It's holidays, it's summer, it's Christmas and you know, Australians
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: were terrified en mass for really one of the first
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: times I've ever seen.
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: I think I'll remember Ruven Morrison, one of the older
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: gentlemen who didn't know he was being filmed and confronted
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: one of the gunmen with a brick and he threw
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: it at one of the shooters. He was one of
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: the fatalities. He was one of the people who was murdered.
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: And I'm just awestruck by the bravery of him, and
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: obviously the bravery of all the other people involved, but
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: particularly a very elderly gentleman who put himself directly in
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: harm's way, may have even known that he would have
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: died doing what he was doing and throwing a brick
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: at a gunman, knowing that it's not going to be
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: a great consequence, but trying anyway.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: I just think it's outstanding. Well, Thanks Johnny, Thanks Claire.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Thanks me.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Thanks Nicholas Jensen is the Australians Opinion editor and Johnny
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Bashan is a senior journalist. You can read all the
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: latest on this developing story right now at the Australian
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: dot com dot Au