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Issue 364: What if Padmé Stayed? · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

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  We must be cautious. Welcome to the note party. Hi. This is
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  Nick and Ostasu, story editor on Star Wars, The Clone Wars and Star
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  Wars bad Batch, and you are listening to Aggressive Negotiations. Welcome back,
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  my friends, to the Star Wars podcast that explores all of the questions that
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  you wanted to ask about Star Wars but we're afraid to. I am Jedi
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  Master John Mills, and I am joined here on Aggressive Negotiations with my dear
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  friend, my close personal compatriot, the sober yin to my raging Yang Jedi
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  Master Matthew Rushing. Matt, are you ready for my own screwball topic to
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  address on Aggressive Negotiations? John, I love it. You know, it's
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  one of those things where every time we get together, there's many times where
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  we'd have no idea what we're going to talk about because the other person hasn't
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  told us and just surprises us. And it's always good weeks here on aggressive
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  negotiating. Since when that happens, it's like somebody spiked the Jawa juice.
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  That's right, and you know what, it would be giving us just as
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  and you can find at Join nerd Party on ex Twitter and the Nerd
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  Party on Facebook and Instagram, which is of course where we are. But
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  Matt, here's my quasi screwball question. It's not as much fun as the
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  Jedi fashion show that you pitched last week. But we know that in The
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  Phantom Menace, which just celebrated its twenty fifth anniversary as we've recorded this,
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  where it's hard to imagine that that much time has passed, or that we
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  both just recently saw it in the movie theaters. Again, what a joy
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  that was carrying that forward. We both know the way that the story goes,
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  but good old Palpatine initially counsels the Queen not to go back to Nabu,
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  so that is not his preferred move. Now, obviously things work out
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  a certain way, and then ten years later we have a giant civil war
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  and all of those sorts of things. But what if Padme had taken Palpatine's
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  advice and she had stayed on Coruscant quote unquote where it's safe and simply ceded
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  Naboo to the Federation and said, okay, they have control of the planet.
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  We will follow procedures, we'll go to the courts, we'll go all
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  those sorts of things. What does that look like? What is Palpatine's play
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  Because Palpatine's telling her to stay, He's been nominated by this point to become
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  the Supreme Chancellor. But what precisely is the angle here? What happens if
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  Padme decides to stay on Corusot, because that means that the two Jedi Qui
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  Gon and Obi Wan aren't going back to Nabu either. I think that's a
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  really good question, and I think one of the things that it does feel
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  like that it would do was would be kind of to accelerate possibly the plans
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  of Palpatine. You know, one of the things that happens there is that
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  you know, you hear Palpatine even say you know that this this move doesn't
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  make sense for her. It seems too bold, It just doesn't fit the
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  mold that he had put her in as a character. And so I think
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  that, in all honesty, is really the first thing that ends up happening
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  with his plan is it makes it. It gives him the ability to push
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  that forward much more quickly. But I think what's also interesting about that in
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  a byproduct of it is that I think it might also hurt Anakin's development in
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  some ways, possibly because if Qui Gon never dies because they don't go to
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  Naboo and then end up having to face down with Darth Maul because he's not
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  needed at that point, right, there's no need to reveal Darth Maul to
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  anyone in that sense other than the moment that we saw him on Tattooine.
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  You know, he could stay hidden, possibly for a much longer period of
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  time. But Anna doesn't have the ability to impress right the way that he
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  does. He doesn't have the ability to and and and honestly, I guess
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  the big question becomes would he even get to be trained at all? Because
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  would the Jedi Council allow Obi Wan to take the trials and then allow uh
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  Qui Gon to train Anakin? And does that mean that Qui Gon just leaves
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  and trains Anakin without the permission of the Jedi. I mean, that's a
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  huge question. I think, well, I think you're on the two things
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  there. One, Maul can quote unquote stay hidden, but they know now
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  that there's somebody trained in the Jedi arts out there, and so I think
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  the Jedi wind up going out and trying to find this person. Second,
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  is that's exactly where my brain goes, is that Qui Gon says, if
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  you're not going to let me train Anakin, then I leave, and he
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  leaves instead of Doku being the one that leaves because Qui Gon's death, as
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  we accept the lure now, is what finally snaps Doku to go off and
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  be like, I'm done with this. This is enough right now. Of
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  course he's being poisoned. We've seen tales of the Jedi and everything like that.
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  Doku's not exactly you know, prime material to be on the Council to
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  begin with. But I think that there there is an interesting domino effect because
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  Qui Gon leaving I think still spurs on chicanery because certain things, you know,
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  Scipho, Dias and Doku are already moving behind the scenes before Qui Gon's
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  death sort of thing. If Qui Gon leaves, that's I think akin to
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  a death right like that. That's still removing Qui Gon from the equation.
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  But I think you're onto something. Would Palpatine have interest in Anakin if the
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  Jedi had not exposed him as a potential recruit. There's a thing where Mal
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  doesn't die, Anakin doesn't get the chance to shine at the Battle of Naboo,
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  Qui Gon leaves most likely to take Anakin and say we're going to go
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  off on our own adventures or something like that, which I'm sure creates its
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  own problems and rift within the Jedi order. I mean, heck, for
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  all we know other Jedi leave with Qui Gon and say, you know what,
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  this is stupid? Why are we doing things this way? Anyway?
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  But without with Anakin removed from play and Mal alive, what does that even
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  look like? We have some EU stuff where Mal you know, Shadow Hunter
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  and stuff like that, where Mal is active in the background, but he
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  can't be the face of diplomacy the same way that Douku is, and they
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  obviously still need the civil war. So I'm just I'm curious. I think
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  we both agree Qui Gon goes off takes Anakin Mal is not a suitable face
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  of whatever faction. So Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Great, what's his play after?
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  What do you think he does? Is he still I mean, obviously
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  the army is still being ordered. But what could possibly precipitate the civil war?
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  I mean, it's supposed to be the invasion of Naboo precipitates the civil
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  war. But if the Federation takes over, how what happens? How does
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  he bait the Jedi into giving him what he wants? Well, okay,
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  one question that I come up with then, is is it something that then
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  delays his ability to create the civil war? Because in some ways the people
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  haven't taken the bait, you know, and so this this this movement that
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  they have right is in the background of the senators. It's in the background
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  of the people. Uh, it's in the background uh for for everyone you
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  know, where the Trade Federation uh has seemed to kind of overstep its bounds.
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  And it's it's something that I think, you know, once you get
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  then to attack of the clones, you know, it's the thing that actually
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  I think pushes the Trade Federation too, because of their failure there to want
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  to actually, you know, create this separatist alliance because they they didn't get
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  really truly what they wanted out of this, And I think it makes it
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  more difficult for Palpatine to be able to convince them to work with him again.
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  And I think it makes it more difficult for them to figure out like
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  why they would need to get a separatist alliance when they already got that they
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  wanted through the blockade of Naboo, you know, And what does that lead
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  to with the blockade of Naboo? Maybe does this accelerate the call for there
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  to be a standing army sooner? Because that doesn't happen? Is that a
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  possibility because you know, the Trade Federation has defied the the the Republic,
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  and so then the call for our standing army comes even maybe sooner? Well
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  what if? I mean the thing is I see Palpatine able to leverage it
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  to be like spurring the federation on to be like, well, we got
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  away with this blockade. So they go off and they do something else,
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  and they just start basically provoking stuff until eventually somebody does something. But by
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  that point it's too late and you just got war on your hands, yeap
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  or Palpatine. Basically, his plan just becomes to leverage the Trade Federation being
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  a bunch of rabble rousers, and then eventually he just has them take over
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  and then he's behind it all anyway. I mean, like you know,
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  as it says, you know the famous line from Entrapment, you're playing boshij
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  Like that's the beauty of Palpatine's plan is Oh no, stay hre where it's
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  safe, right, he can assassinate her, he can do what he needs
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  to do. Naboo's under control, things go crazy with the federation. Cool,
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  Palpatine wins and he's the leader anyway, and then the Queen doesn't listen
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  to him, goes off, can found the federation. Well, Anakin's in
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  play now, all right, that's fine, and he becomes a supreme ruler
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  anyway. So you know, that's that's his real brilliance obviously. But the
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  Mall question is the one that I really get with because after his defeat on
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  Naboo, Mal becomes a bit of a sissyphus character. No matter how many
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  times he pushes that boulder up the hill keeps falling down on him. Mal
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  is a lynchpin here for me because I don't think Mal will ever be what
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  Vader was able to be. Vader was still a disappointment to Palpatine. We've
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  talked about that in the past, you know, all of that stuff,
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  but he was still at least able to walk into a conference room and have
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  a discussion. As imposing as that armor is. Mal walking in a horned
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  dude with a bunch of body tattoos, that's you know, that plays even
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  less well in a Death Star conference room. You know that that sort of
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  like the wild card that I'm thinking of with Maul, is could Maul function
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  as the separatists face and still get the sort of support that Douku did uh
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  as somebody that needs to appear in front of the public and try to persuade
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  them that their cause is just I do think that it makes it much more
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  difficult. I think you're you're right in assuming that the the look and even
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  just the character of Darth Maul, you know, I think his temperament makes
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  it makes it much more difficult for people to want to trust him and to
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  kind of do business with him. I think, you know, the hard
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  thing about Darth Maul is that he's built for aggressive negotiations. He's not necessarily
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  built for uh, you know, smooth and suave the way that Douku was
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  able to to give airs to right, this this person who is reasonable and
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  wants to talk, and you know, the moment Darth Maul shows up,
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  you know that for all intents the purposes, all hell's broken loose, right,
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  because the devil is here and you're gonna either gonna do what he says
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  or you're gonna die. And I do think that that is incredibly difficult to
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  overcome because that's kind of what he was meant to be right as a character,
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  and that's he was the blunt instrument. It seemed, yes, he
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  had been trained to do things, you know, by Palpatine, but it
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  does seem as though the moment that Anakin came on the scene, there was
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  never a choice for Palpatine of who he was going to go for, right,
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  And so I think the a very fascinating question does really become the storyline
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  then of what happens with these characters, like what what transpires to get these
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  characters to these places? Then? Because I do think that that you really
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  do end up with you really do end up with with Palpatine, you know,
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  just being in a bit of a conundrum because and I mean, that's
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  that's the thing that's so interesting because it as I'm saying that, I'm thinking,
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  well, Padme surprises him, right, and so he actually has a
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  plan. So I guess the question is what is his plan? It's simply
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  become Supreme Chancellor. I'm just trying to figure out how he creates the crisis
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  after that, because he needs a crisis in order to become you know,
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  the emperor eventually. And Mall, how does I mean the crisis that's perfect
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  as a civil war because he gets to stay in office and extend his powers
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  and all of that sort of thing, and everybody plays by his rules and
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  then he, you know, all of a sudden he's like, I guess
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  what, I'm emperor. It really is that Mall factor that plays into everything,
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  especially because if the Sith are supposed to function in such a way that
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  obviously Vader is supposed to be ascendant, Mal is supposed to be ascendant.
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  Mall's never going to be ready for that big I think Clone Wars rebels Mall's
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  entire arc clearly shows that Mal is never going to be ready for the big
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  show. He's never going to be the guy that's able to stand on that
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  podium. Vader, as intimidating as he is, could at least have stood
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  there and given a speech or you know, rallied troops or anything like that,
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  or even gotten senators to listen to him. Maul, that's not gonna
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  be the same sort of same sort of thing. I mean, I think
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  I basically, I think that it boils down to the fact that I think
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  by the time Phantom Menace comes around, Palpatine had won. The minute that
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  he's nominated as Chancellor, there's just no way around that, because he's just
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  gonna move the levers of power. It's just the way the levers of power
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  move after that become so different because Padmey, if anything, becomes easier to
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  handle if she's on Coruscant, she becomes easier to assassinate because she's not gonna
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  have Anakin and obi Wan fred over her. Yeah, so well, she's
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  not gonna even have any Jedi protection most likely at all. I mean,
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  you know, Qui Gon and Obi Wan probably will not be assigned to her
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  anymore, and therefore, you know, her being murdered in some way is
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  going to be much more easy because she would only have you know, Palpatine
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  security. Uh, And so I think that that would be just incredibly interesting
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  to see. And so I think you're right on target with the idea that
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  Palpatine believes. By Padme staying that it is much more it is much easier
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  for him to control the situation fully. He has nobody getting in his way.
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  He has the ability then to create maybe a possibility of I think a
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  civil war then with the Trade Federation and making this move taking over Naboo,
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  which is also his home planet, to maybe possibly create the army of the
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  Republic much sooner than we see possible here in the ten years that it takes.
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  And then you know, seeing the retaliation against that kind of aggressiveness on
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  the other side, with somebody stoking the fires there on the Trade Federation side,
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  of getting others to say, oh no, we don't want the you
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  know, the Republics stepping in in this manner, and you know, basically
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  it's executive actions that are they're leading to this with the Palpatine and all and
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  just taking advantage. And so yeah, I mean, I think you can
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  clearly see the way in which Palpatine could make this work to his advantage,
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  and because in all honesty, he has to create some sort of war for
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  the Jedi to be destroyed. I mean, he just he has to.
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  That's the only way to get the Jedi out of the way. Yes,
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  it is the only way to get the Jedi out of the way. So
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  he does need the war no matter what. I think that possibly a way
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  to bait it and even get the Jedi on his side with the army would
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  be to position it to have the genocide of the Gungans once the Federation comes
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  in. You know, he says, when they're getting ready for the battle,
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  wipe them out, all of them. Maybe that was the plan all
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  along. If you wipe out the Gungans, you create atrocity so awful that
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  the Jedi have to support my call for a military because we could have prevented
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  that terrible thing from happening if we'd had an army to send off to oppose
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  you. Maybe that's the very angle that he needs, and it's even in
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  many ways even more monstrous than what he does. You know, by baiting
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  the Jedi in to save three of their own on Geonosis, I think that's
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  definitely the angle that that he can play at that point. You know,
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  I was pitching this initially it's sort of like a just an offhanded topic.
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  But as with everything that is truly the things that we love with Star Wars,
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  it's layered in such a way that it seems so straightforward what happens,
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  But then when you pick at it for a second, you realize, Wow,
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  somebody spent a lot of time thinking through the chain reaction of events,
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  and so this isn't straightforward that this seems straightforward because it's the most it's a
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  logical progression, but they have to have entertained these different notions while they were
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  developing the story, and it's it's just it's such an interesting sort of road
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  to go down. Well, I think we, you know, in all
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  honesty, we figured out two and throughout this conversation. You know, what
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  is Palpatine's favorite song? War? What is it good for destroying Jedi?
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  You know, I think that would have charted in a galaxy far far away.
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  That would at least for him, I mean, he would have been
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  playing that over and over and over again. Yeah. Hey, why is
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  it every time the Jedi leave your office you play Nana no no, no,
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  no, no, no, Hey, Hey, good, by no
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  reason, I just like the song. Yeah, it's so catchy, right,
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  it just yeah, it just does something for my mood, it does.
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  It does something for my mood, the same way that the Cantina Band
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  song from the original Star Wars does for my mood or Java's Broke recital does
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  does for my mood as well. But you know, if people want to
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  enhance their moods by connecting with you online, Master Rushing, where can they
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  find you, Well, you can find me all over social media under the
• 23:04
  name Matt Rushing zero two. Here on the network, you can find me
• 23:08
  doing owl Post with Dre Kaufman, as we have that completed show that talks
• 23:12
  about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series one chapter time. Over on
• 23:17
  the TFM network, you'll find me doing a bunch of shows. One's called
• 23:19
  the six or two Club and we discuss all of the franchises we love.
• 23:22
  John's a frequent guest over there, so you can check that out as well
• 23:26
  as a lot of Star Trek talked on the ORB Warp five, the Artificial
• 23:30
  Tango, Saddle Up and sometimes on Literary Treks and John when people are trying
• 23:36
  to find that secret video of you doing your ballet to the baroque recital from
• 23:41
  Java's Palace. Where can people find you, Well, just look up Kessel
• 23:45
  Junkie online, K S, S, LG, A O and Kie and
• 23:49
  of course you can find me here actually co hosting a show on this network
• 23:55
  called house Lights where we look at the work of directors and every day I
• 23:59
  can and pain harder and more fervently for a special look at the films of
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  Ui Bowl. And if you know, you know. If you don't,
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  then I think it's time to go back to the temple and figure out what
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  our plan for starting a civil war with Shief Palpatine would have been. So
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  master Rushing, I think it is time to close these negotiations. John,
• 24:26
  negotiations are closed. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.