Latest / onefjef / Jef Before onefjef – A 25th Episode Special, Hosted by Chris Casey

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Jef Before onefjef – A 25th Episode Special, Hosted by Chris Casey · onefjef

• 0:01
  Okay Jef, let's try that Yankee Doodle again, okay?
• 0:09
  This is episode 25 of onefjef.
• 0:18
  25 is the hinge number, the threshold between who you were and who you're becoming.
• 0:23
  It's the square of five which numerology treats as chaos, freedom, restlessness, curiosity.
• 0:30
  Squaring something means stabilizing it, turning motion into structure.
• 0:33
  So 25 is freedom formalized, the moment where the chaos of youth crystallizes into something coherent.
• 0:40
  Hello, friends, Romans, countrymen.
• 0:45
  I appreciate you lending me your ears over these past 25 episodes or however many you've listened to at this point.
• 0:54
  25 episodes feels like a milestone of sorts.
• 0:58
  and I'm one who appreciates marking milestones in one way or another.
• 1:02
  So I'm marking this one by turning the tables in a manner of speaking.
• 1:07
  Chris Casey is my guest host for this episode, who you might remember from episode two and as the big winner of the email contest and who is also a dear friend.
• 1:20
  And the guest for this episode is me.
• 1:25
  Jef Taylor is a Columbus-based filmmaker and podcaster who spent a lot of years drifting between projects, places, and phases of himself.
• 1:34
  He edits for a living, travels when he can, and tries, sometimes clumsily, to turn whatever he's going through into something honest.
• 1:41
  Onefjef is basically his attempt to make sense of the mess.
• 1:45
  Connection, grief, curiosity, the ways people change and don't.
• 1:50
  He's in a transition phase sorting out what comes next.
• 1:54
  without pretending he has it figured out.
• 1:56
  I imagine I met myself when I woke up confused in my mother's womb.
• 2:01
  I've known myself pretty consistently since then, at some points more than others.
• 2:07
  Lately pretty well though, I think.
• 2:10
  And recording this episode helped me know myself better, so hopefully it will do the same for you.
• 2:16
  And if you do have any follow-up questions after listening, feel free to send them to onefjefpod@gmail.com.
• 2:24
  The traditional gift for a 25th anniversary is silver, but I'd rather have you subscribe to my Patreon page, which is much less expensive.
• 2:34
  For as little as $5 a month, you can get access to all the bonus content, including some personal photos I'll be adding to enhance your experience of this episode.
• 2:44
  No nudes, I promise.
• 2:46
  Patreon.com.onefjef.
• 2:48
  And if you're already a subscriber, you should feel as good about yourself as I do about you.
• 2:54
  and I feel great about you.
• 2:56
  Patreon.com/onefjef.
• 2:59
  I would normally say something here philosophical about the nature of this episode or the nature of my life at this moment, but this entire episode is basically me talking, so
• 3:09
  let's just get right to it.
• 3:11
  Thank you for listening.
• 3:14
  Thank you for being here.
• 3:17
  Here's me talking to Chris Casey about me.
• 3:31
  To toast toast toasting Okay, host needs to sorry sorry on here You Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to onefjef.
• 3:46
  I'm 1c Chris and I am so thrilled to be here To welcome a person that you have come to love
• 3:58
  Appreciate and maybe even give a little money to get that patreon He's the host of this very podcast which is celebrating today.
• 4:07
  It's 25th episode And then you insert little children cheering sound effect right there No, I'm not talking about Bing Bong.
• 4:15
  I'm talking about Jef
• 4:18
  been fired by the way I haven't actually been let go
• 4:23
  Oh, well, that's an awkward way to discuss.
• 4:25
  know, but my audience is going to have to f*** with the other and I just don't to episode to announce that I
• 4:30
  too bad about it because I feel like the audience has become a.
• 4:34
  He was just toxic, just a toxic person.
• 4:37
  And listen, there's ongoing litigation, so we really can't get into it.
• 4:41
  But suffice it to say, we wish, we wish him well.
• 4:45
  Okay.
• 4:47
  Jef Taylor, everybody.
• 4:50
  I'm oddly nervous to be interviewed on my own podcast, I'll be honest.
• 4:53
  I get that.
• 4:54
  Right.
• 4:55
  So let's start from the beginning then.
• 4:57
  You grew up in Cleveland, Ohio.
• 5:00
  I was in Cleveland at Fairview Jailhouse in 1973.
• 5:05
  And you already had a sister, you have an older sister there.
• 5:07
  Yeah, she's three years older.
• 5:09
  She was born in 1976 here this weekend as well.
• 5:12
  My sister Allison.
• 5:13
  What's the occasion?
• 5:14
  Why are you guys there?
• 5:15
  Clambake.
• 5:16
  It's a Cleveland actually.
• 5:17
  It's strange phenomenon.
• 5:19
  Actually, I've been looking into it because usually usually clambakes are in New England, know.
• 5:24
  It's the ocean and there's clams there.
• 5:26
  There's no clams in Lake Erie.
• 5:27
  But how it ended up coming here was during the 1800s.
• 5:30
  Apparently Cleveland was a pretty booming town at the time and uh the trains were running right through Cleveland.
• 5:35
  So the trains would come to bring New Englanders to Cleveland and I guess they decided to just start doing clambakes here.
• 5:42
  Is it like around this time of year that
• 5:44
  Yeah.
• 5:45
  It's an October thing, yeah.
• 5:47
  interesting.
• 5:48
  Yeah, I have memories of like when I was a kid, like standing in like the garage and got this like the steaming pot of clams and I don't like clams though.
• 5:57
  well, so you grew up in Cleveland in basically last ladies.
• 6:03
  A suburb, is that a suburb?
• 6:05
  Yeah, OK.
• 6:05
  Yeah, it's the suburb of suburbs.
• 6:08
  I'm picturing a very kind of like cul-de-sac kind of like you can go out and play in the neighborhood with the kids ride bikes kind of thing.
• 6:16
  Is that the vibe we're talking about?
• 6:18
  It's like you're sitting here.
• 6:19
  There's a cul-de-sac like right around the corner.
• 6:22
  It's like I can see it from the window.
• 6:24
  And yeah, we used to play.
• 6:26
  was kids my age.
• 6:27
  ah We had the day.
• 6:29
  So yeah, we'd play baseball on the cul-de-sac.
• 6:31
  We'd ride bikes all over the neighborhood.
• 6:33
  We'd play Nintendo in the basements of.
• 6:36
  Yeah, it was looking back.
• 6:37
  It was pretty, pretty ideal.
• 6:39
  actually.
• 6:40
  What was your kind of personality identity in your group of friends in that like elementary school time period?
• 6:49
  mean it's difficult to say because a lot Earlier like elementary school memories are pretty hazy like I think that I became very socially awkward Maybe I was always socially
• 7:01
  awkward, but I I think I definitely became very socially awkward in like sixth fifth or sixth grade sure and Then middle school.
• 7:10
  I was very much awkward Started to lose the awkwardness as I got a little bit older
• 7:17
  like later in high school, but still in college, I struggled socially.
• 7:21
  I had trouble understanding social dynamics.
• 7:25
  Was there like a moment or a year or a general time when you when you first started to have more self conscious thoughts?
• 7:34
  You know, like thinking about how you were being perceived or, you know, things like that, as opposed to just when you're a little kid, I feel like you're just like, you're doing
• 7:43
  it, you know.
• 7:44
  I would say middle school when the kids start to make fun of you for the way you look.
• 7:48
  So probably about then, yeah.
• 7:49
  I mean, because I was super, super skinny and like just an uber nerd and I was in like, you know, children's theater productions and I'd be in the paper doing dressed up in like
• 7:58
  fairy tale characters, which didn't do a lot for your popularity in middle school.
• 8:02
  So yeah, I didn't really have much of a social life outside of my theater friends.
• 8:08
  uh
• 8:08
  in middle school, which I did have, know, the theater really was a savior.
• 8:13
  It's the big, if we were ever to talk about like a, if it was discovering theater and discovering that community that was people that were kind of like me, that were weird and
• 8:22
  kind of outcasts and you know, that kind of thing and artistic.
• 8:25
  Yeah, it changed my life.
• 8:28
  My dad is where I get pretty much all of uh my artistic and funny and dry humor side.
• 8:35
  I think, and even this, like the podcasting ability, he would have been great on a podcast.
• 8:40
  But you know, also, you know, not around a lot.
• 8:42
  It'd work a lot.
• 8:43
  He'd work late, whatever it was.
• 8:45
  And also was very kind of hard on me.
• 8:47
  And I don't think really understood me.
• 8:51
  I think he wanted me to be a sports person.
• 8:54
  you know, he wanted a son who was good at athletic and all that.
• 8:57
  I don't think the theater thing, like he embraced it eventually, I think, but I do think that that was a thing that was like,
• 9:05
  you know, it might have been hard for him to see his son dress up in a fairy tale costumes and makeup and so on.
• 9:10
  What made him in your view kind of value more traditional masculine stuff or was that just like a society thing?
• 9:18
  I think it was more of a society thing.
• 9:19
  I think that my dad was probably kind of a awkward kind of nerdy guy in, you know, or whatever as well.
• 9:29
  That'd be my guess, but I don't entirely know because we never actually talked about it, which, you know, I wish we had, but me and my father never really saw eye eye.
• 9:37
  well, you
• 9:39
  Yeah, that would make sense in a certain way because I think sometimes when people have kids, they it starts to trigger their unresolved childhood trauma that they have.
• 9:50
  They've kind of just turned away from because they see it reflected through the eyes of their kids.
• 9:54
  And that can be something that you can either kind of rise to the occasion of or uh can cause you to be a little more resistant avoid.
• 10:04
  And his father died quite young as well, so I don't think he had much of a father figure, to be honest.
• 10:09
  So I don't know that he necessarily knew how to be a father, in a sense, because he had no role model in that way.
• 10:17
  uh You know?
• 10:20
  Not to psychoanalyze my father, but I do think that that's a big part of it, because his father died, I forget how old he was, but he was young.
• 10:28
  I am closer to my mom than I ever was with my father.
• 10:30
  Of course, because she was around a lot more and she was the nurturer.
• 10:34
  So I was going to ask, were your parents, did either of them or both have that nurturing quality?
• 10:40
  Were there a lot of hugs?
• 10:41
  Were there a lot of...
• 10:42
  um Yeah, I mean, my mom
• 10:45
  affectionate.
• 10:46
  My father's hugs always the kind that you pat on the back because you're uncomfortable.
• 10:51
  So yeah, there's definitely that and that's something
• 10:54
  that I've always
• 10:56
  been trying to kind of outgrow it or correct it, you know.
• 11:00
  It's also a Midwestern thing in the sense that we don't talk about our problems.
• 11:05
  It's all very surfacey.
• 11:06
  Yeah, I feel like you've done a decent job of if not resisting the calcification of your sensitivity.
• 11:16
  You've always been a pretty sensitive person, but watching back to your films and stuff, I feel like you've actually become more sensitive in the last like 15 years since I've known
• 11:27
  you than you were when you were younger.
• 11:30
  Does that feel right?
• 11:32
  Yeah, that's probably true.
• 11:33
  Or maybe just like more in tune.
• 11:35
  I've always been incredibly sensitive.
• 11:37
  Like I've always kind of been.
• 11:38
  But it's always just manifested in different ways.
• 11:40
  And I think that I think I've learned to kind of own embrace it as opposed to not really knowing what to do with this raw nerve.
• 11:49
  and become a little more skillful in regulating.
• 11:53
  uh
• 11:55
  Yeah, to a degree, you know, it's still a struggle, like, you know, I mean, putting it into my art, putting it into this podcast really, I mean, these things have helped me
• 12:02
  immensely because I mean, I artists by nature are generally just incredibly sensitive people to the nuances of emotion and just the world in general.
• 12:12
  And I think that's what in a way makes me a good filmmaker was because of my sense of my emotional sensitivity.
• 12:19
  Do you remember when you saw any kind of art and started to get the idea that that's something you'd want to pursue?
• 12:28
  My sister was a Indian princess.
• 12:30
  I don't know if you had those when you were a kid.
• 12:32
  It was like the female version of the boy, the Cub Scouts basically.
• 12:35
  And my mom was like the den leader or whatever, whatever they called it.
• 12:40
  So I had to go with them because I was like, you know, home for the summer or whatever.
• 12:43
  they, wherever they had to go, whatever the outings was, we had to go with them.
• 12:46
  And so one of the outings was to the Speck Center Theater.
• 12:50
  That was the children's theater that I ended up getting involved with.
• 12:52
  was, the show was Punch and Judy.
• 12:54
  and
• 12:55
  I just remember being wrapped by this thing.
• 12:58
  was like, and I kept begging my parents afterwards to let me go to the school because I just saw something in it.
• 13:03
  I was like, this is something that I'm into.
• 13:05
  And it took a while because the theater was a drive, you know, it was like a 20 minute drive from the house and after school and all that and cost money and all that.
• 13:13
  But eventually they relented and forever grateful.
• 13:17
  That was third grade, I think, or second grade.
• 13:21
  They had these classes every Saturday.
• 13:24
  It was great.
• 13:24
  It was super fun.
• 13:25
  And then they would have plays two or three times a year.
• 13:27
  And that was my social group.
• 13:29
  It was like, you the first woman I dated was from Bexley.
• 13:33
  I had my first kiss at the Bexley.
• 13:35
  Yeah.
• 13:37
  Do you have a favorite production from your younger years of?
• 13:41
  dear.
• 13:42
  I would say the one has to be the Princess and the Magic P I think was one of my very last shows.
• 13:48
  It might have been my last.
• 13:48
  Remember I was sitting in the auditorium watching the auditions.
• 13:52
  We were waiting to audition for the thing and they were auditioning the part of the witch.
• 13:56
  know there's a woman.
• 13:58
  None of the women of the girls at the time could do a good laugh.
• 14:02
  The director kept going like no like this and so from the back of the auditorium I was just like and she's like yes and so she had me audition.
• 14:11
  and then cast me.
• 14:12
  So I played this like weird kind of cross-dressing.
• 14:15
  I mean, I don't think it was implicitly cross-dressing, but I was cross-dressing.
• 14:19
  This like over-the-top witch costume and yeah, you know, lots of makeup and lipstick and long fingernails and all.
• 14:25
  It was pretty cool.
• 14:27
  And so this theater was not part of your school.
• 14:29
  It was a separate program.
• 14:30
  So you didn't really have those kids to hang out with at school.
• 14:34
  There were a few that went there from the school, not very many.
• 14:39
  So yeah, mostly it was like a separate thing.
• 14:41
  Like after school, when we'd have like a play going on, I'd leave school and then go straight to like rehearsal for like two or three hours, two or three times a week.
• 14:50
  And then every Saturday we had the thing.
• 14:52
  So it was a lot of time with this other group of people.
• 14:54
  Some of the people I met in Beck Center are still dear friends.
• 14:58
  which is nice.
• 15:00
  religious?
• 15:01
  there any religion for your family?
• 15:03
  First, sure, I was raised Catholic, but I never liked it or was into it.
• 15:10
  Yeah, I had to go to church and I didn't like going to church.
• 15:13
  found it very boring.
• 15:15
  I was confirmed.
• 15:16
  I had to do First Communion and all that.
• 15:17
  Do you a dev to your first?
• 15:19
  I had to do that, I've done that,
• 15:21
  ah I don't remember.
• 15:24
  ah
• 15:25
  It's all vague memories.
• 15:26
  I remember Father Callahan, had to go into the booth and you, you know, you had to tell you what you did, I don't you swore or something, and then they give you like a ten- a
• 15:34
  penance.
• 15:34
  So have to go out and pray the Hail Mary ten times or something like that.
• 15:39
  And then one time when I was able to drive, my parents would let me drive to church.
• 15:45
  So oftentimes I would ditch, I would not go to church.
• 15:47
  I would just go to the record store, which is kind of my second home.
• 15:51
  and
• 15:52
  It worked out fine until one time my sister needed the car.
• 15:57
  My mom or dad needed the car to drive her back to college.
• 16:00
  forget the whole story, but they went to the parking lot at the church and they couldn't find the car.
• 16:04
  And then they found me at the record store and I got grounded and had to walk.
• 16:08
  Wait, your parents insisted you go to church, but they didn't go?
• 16:12
  They went at a different time.
• 16:13
  mom, my dad didn't go to church.
• 16:16
  My mom went to church.
• 16:17
  My dad was not a religious man.
• 16:19
  My mom was raised Catholic, so that was what she did.
• 16:22
  interesting.
• 16:23
  Yeah.
• 16:28
  Yeah, we had the best record store in the Cleveland area here in Westlake called My Generation for many years.
• 16:33
  And it was, it used to be right down the street so I could like bike there, but it moved a little bit further away.
• 16:40
  Now it's of course closed because, know, but yeah, it was awesome.
• 16:43
  I would spend like hours there just going through the CDs and the tapes and all that kind of thing.
• 16:48
  Your use of music is one of my favorite aspects of you as a filmmaker.
• 16:52
  uh Your kind of ear for music and how you put it together.
• 16:56
  So I'm curious where that comes from.
• 16:58
  Yeah, it definitely comes from being, I mean, was really into music when I was, I've always been in music.
• 17:02
  I used to sit and listen to the radio and like with my tape deck and like request a song that I wanted to hear so I could just have it on tape and listen to it over and over
• 17:10
  again.
• 17:10
  Cause like back then that was the only way that you could really, unless you went out and bought the whole album, which I couldn't afford.
• 17:17
  So.
• 17:18
  Yeah.
• 17:19
  Where did you go to college?
• 17:21
  Because I know you went to graduate school in Savannah, but I didn't actually know where you went.
• 17:26
  I went to Ohio University in Athens, Ohio, was there for six years.
• 17:31
  I am not a doctor, but I wish I had been a better student and taken more advantage of all the opportunities that college presents you with as a young person that you don't get as
• 17:42
  an older person.
• 17:43
  But I, you know, I, I, um, I partied quite a bit.
• 17:47
  Did you, dorms there?
• 17:49
  Did he do a fraternity or what was college life like?
• 17:52
  I dormed for the first couple years, I think first two years, and then you were allowed to live off campus.
• 17:59
  So then I lived off campus.
• 18:01
  Bunch of different places.
• 18:02
  Well, one place was this hippie house.
• 18:06
  I was friends with lot of hippies.
• 18:08
  It was kind of a hippie school, really.
• 18:10
  And
• 18:11
  I with these three women in this house that was falling apart and there were bees that lived in my bedroom and I got stung in the middle of the night because there was like a
• 18:24
  bee's nest in the roof of my bedroom.
• 18:26
  was fun.
• 18:28
  Regular?
• 18:30
  I think that only happened the one time.
• 18:32
  Yeah, if it happened regularly, I probably wouldn't have said something.
• 18:36
  And then at one point I lived in...
• 18:39
  It was tricky because I was...
• 18:41
  struggling socially then.
• 18:42
  Like I had friends in college, but I was still like not entirely...
• 18:46
  I always had just, I don't know how to put it, but I was always very, I was always just awkward socially and never, it was always a self-esteem thing I think.
• 18:54
  I think that's really probably the heart of it is the self-esteem thing is I never had self-esteem and I was always very neurotic.
• 19:01
  So I was always questioning people's true friendship toward me and so forth, not outwardly, but in my head, you know?
• 19:09
  So yeah.
• 19:10
  Yeah.
• 19:10
  Yeah, I forget what the question was, but that was.
• 19:12
  the end.
• 19:13
  Was there like an undergrad girlfriend for this period?
• 19:17
  I had a girlfriend in college, Derissa Phipps, that was towards my, I think, by fifth year.
• 19:22
  Yeah, I met Derissa.
• 19:24
  We were both ushering at a Rusted Root concert.
• 19:28
  Yeah, she was a very, she was a very cool chick.
• 19:31
  and uh...
• 19:33
  And yeah, we dated for, I don't know, six, seven, eight months.
• 19:35
  forget the whole story.
• 19:37
  So college, anything remarkable about your undergrad time that was formative for you?
• 19:44
  You didn't start thinking about filmmaking at this point yet, I assume.
• 19:48
  No, no, not really.
• 19:50
  uh
• 19:51
  English major?
• 19:52
  What was your?
• 19:53
  English Lit major and that was just because you could do anything with an English degree is what they said back then because I have always been a dabbler and I didn't pick any
• 20:01
  particular field.
• 20:02
  I thought I'd get stuck in that so I just thought I'll just go general.
• 20:06
  But yeah, other college things.
• 20:07
  No, I mean I got arrested one time for underage drinking.
• 20:10
  That was the most exciting thing that happened.
• 20:14
  I had to go to court, but I don't think I mean yeah, I had to pay a fine or something.
• 20:19
  Go to like.
• 20:20
  Actually, no, there were two occasions.
• 20:21
  One time they caught us with like a keg in our door.
• 20:25
  and uh...
• 20:26
  We all got in trouble and had to go talk to like the head of the dorm, whatever that person's name was.
• 20:31
  And he gave me this ridiculous talk and he was like, now why do you drink?
• 20:35
  And I was like, well, know, cause it's fun.
• 20:37
  It's like a social lubricant, you know?
• 20:39
  And he's like, you know what nobody ever says to me?
• 20:41
  Because they're thirsty.
• 20:43
  And he said it as if it was some profound like statement.
• 20:46
  And it's like, well, no, of course they don't say, cause they're thirsty.
• 20:49
  Cause people are drinking alcohol.
• 20:50
  they're to get drunk, idiot.
• 20:53
  Thanks.
• 20:53
  you
• 20:54
  that, I was going, it's so stupid.
• 20:56
  Is that supposed to make you like sad for humanity that people are drinking when they're not thirsty?
• 21:00
  don't know what the point of that was.
• 21:03
  Really do anything to affect my behavior.
• 21:07
  Did you drink before college or?
• 21:12
  You were a good kid.
• 21:13
  Yeah, I I was a good kid in high school I mean I was uh I hung out with some like burnouts a little bit because I was just kind of like the person who kind of Floated between and
• 21:22
  high school could float between groups a little bit.
• 21:25
  I Was very I was a very good boy in high school if only because I wasn't invited to the cool parties possibly, you know
• 21:31
  That was probably my situation as well in retrospect.
• 21:36
  Any encounters with uh mind-altering substances of any sort in high school or college?
• 21:43
  College for sure, that's where I got introduced to marijuana, your psychedelics.
• 21:47
  ah
• 21:50
  any profound uh life changing discoveries on either of those.
• 21:55
  uh
• 21:55
  I mean...
• 21:55
  Back then it was mostly like, let's take some mushrooms and have like, did one.
• 22:00
  think one of the first times I took them, it was with the group of people who lived in my like dorm.
• 22:05
  We all took mushrooms and went up to, there was a place in Athens called Bong Hill.
• 22:09
  There was this hill, you'd have to outside of campus, have to climb up it and what they can see the whole campus from up there.
• 22:14
  It was amazing.
• 22:15
  And we all went up there.
• 22:16
  We were the only ones up there.
• 22:17
  And it was like, we ended up getting into almost like we were like, at one point we all had our arms around each other and we're doing like a tribal dance.
• 22:25
  It was was something else.
• 22:26
  It was and these were like some of these were jocks and you know, yada yada yada.
• 22:29
  So yeah, that was a pretty profound experience just in the sense that, you know, I was like, wow, you take these mushrooms and suddenly like, you know, you're connecting with
• 22:38
  people in a way that you've never really connected with them or ever thought you would connect with them before, you know.
• 22:43
  And in these, in this like college period, did you have any visions for what you wanted to do with your life at any point?
• 22:51
  Yeah, no, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life.
• 22:53
  That was probably why, I mean, at least part of the reason why I didn't want to leave college, right?
• 22:57
  Because I was like, I have no idea what I want to do with my life.
• 23:01
  And
• 23:03
  So even when I left college, I moved to London, work abroad program.
• 23:10
  Lived there for about, I think, six, seven, Or not Airbnb, just a B &B.
• 23:18
  uh There was called the George Hotel and was run by this Turkish woman named Binur Perak, who was still on Instagram, strange enough, but she was a difficult woman.
• 23:30
  You lived in the B &B?
• 23:32
  Yeah, yeah, I lived and worked behind the desk at the BNBA.
• 23:35
  I had a little room in the basement.
• 23:37
  Yeah, I lived there.
• 23:38
  It was like a whole family.
• 23:39
  It was kind of cool actually because there were like some of the servers and stuff.
• 23:45
  were all from different countries, Poland, France.
• 23:49
  think there was one from France.
• 23:50
  And so that was a super interesting part of that experience was like, because some of them were super cool.
• 23:56
  And yeah, and we would hang out sometimes.
• 23:58
  Yeah, it was like a little family at times.
• 24:00
  It was kind of an interesting experience.
• 24:02
  That is interesting.
• 24:03
  Was there any memories from that time that stick out, any stories from them?
• 24:09
  I mean, one time before I got the job, because there was a good several weeks before I actually landed a job.
• 24:16
  So I was kind of broke.
• 24:19
  At one point, I was just wandering around central London by the main train station there.
• 24:25
  I forget the name of
• 24:26
  but um
• 24:28
  I ended up hanging out with these homeless people smoking hash and we were having a good time.
• 24:34
  And then like the, the, this truck come the truck, it gives the homeless people free food and they're like, dude, do you want some food?
• 24:43
  I'm like, what do mean?
• 24:44
  You, I'm like, know, and they're like, it's free.
• 24:46
  give it, give it.
• 24:47
  I didn't take any food because I wasn't homeless, but ah I was struck by that.
• 24:50
  Cause I was like, I've never heard of that happening in America.
• 24:53
  Like a government sponsored food delivery to homeless people.
• 24:56
  They sent you out to London without a job in this program.
• 25:01
  don't remember the logistics of the thing.
• 25:02
  I mean, they you would go and get an orientation in London and then they would give you leads and so forth and on and on and
• 25:08
  Where do you stay though when you're just...
• 25:10
  Yeah, I was staying in hostels for a few weeks, yeah.
• 25:14
  Yeah.
• 25:17
  Alright, so you partied with some homeless people.
• 25:19
  Is this the trip where you got arrested in the bookstore too?
• 25:22
  It is.
• 25:23
  I was hesitant to bring that up, but yeah, that's where I got uh arrested for, because I was broke and I needed something to read and that's the God's on the truth.
• 25:33
  Yeah, I stole a copy of The Fountainhead, which is an idiotic thing because it's a very thick book and I was skinnier than I am now.
• 25:40
  And like I shoved it in my pants and it's clear, like it's idiotic.
• 25:42
  I mean, what was I thinking?
• 25:44
  And I walked out of the store and this security guard comes out and he's like, come back into the store, blah, blah.
• 25:48
  And we were joking around in the back because he was just thought it was charming that I was actually gonna read the book.
• 25:52
  Cause usually it was like drug addicts who would come in and steal books and then sell them for drugs.
• 25:57
  And so we were joking around.
• 25:58
  He was talking about how he had gotten in a lot of trouble and that's how he got this job.
• 26:02
  Cause he had been a thief or whatever.
• 26:04
  And then I ended up getting a ride and a British police and it was the Bobby car on the wrong side of the street.
• 26:09
  Police officers were asking me all about America and American baseball and stuff.
• 26:13
  It was all a very friendly encounter.
• 26:15
  I spent about two hours in a jail cell and they gave me a newspaper and stuff.
• 26:21
  And then I had to appear before like, I don't know, the magistrate or something, you the guys were in the wig and everything.
• 26:27
  And he sits down with me and he goes, well, well, well, it looks like we got ourselves a international book thief on our hands.
• 26:34
  Peace.
• 26:35
  Like it was all kind of ridiculous and yeah, he let me go.
• 26:38
  He had to go through all the stuff in my bag, but there was nothing.
• 26:41
  No, to be uh a petty thief in London is a very kind of uh auspicious, know, it's like very Charles Dickens.
• 26:51
  Yeah, yeah, that was what I was going for Chris is the Kenzie and It didn't feel the Kenzie and at the time but I read the whole book and I still have the copy I ended up
• 26:59
  having to pay for the book.
• 27:00
  I saw just charged
• 27:02
  Understand.
• 27:03
  okay, so we're broke except for a credit card.
• 27:06
  Sure,
• 27:06
  You know, yeah.
• 27:08
  All right, well, that's cool.
• 27:08
  So then you're done with London, you come back to the US.
• 27:11
  When does Korea happen?
• 27:15
  I can make to the US.
• 27:16
  and um
• 27:18
  Yeah, I got a job at Kinko's near my parents' house.
• 27:21
  Still didn't really know what I wanted to do.
• 27:23
  Still pretty aimless.
• 27:24
  and uh...
• 27:26
  Living at home.
• 27:27
  Living at home for that period, ah Sometimes taking the bus to Kinko's.
• 27:32
  It was actually fun working at Kinko's.
• 27:34
  I was a color copy expert and I had to wear the apron and everything.
• 27:37
  Original Kinkos
• 27:39
  Yeah, I'd often work late at night.
• 27:44
  Yeah, and actually tangent, but like I went back there about, it must have been five or 10 years ago to get some like family pictures printed before the holidays.
• 27:52
  Like one of the guys that I worked with was still working there.
• 27:57
  mean, yeah, it made me a little sad.
• 28:01
  Yeah, it's about 10 years ago.
• 28:02
  Yeah, this was years later.
• 28:03
  Yeah.
• 28:04
  Did you recon- did he recognize you?
• 28:06
  yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:08
  We talked for a bit.
• 28:09
  It was awkward because it was like, it felt awkward to me because he's still working there, you know?
• 28:17
  I don't know how awkward it should have felt for him.
• 28:18
  But yeah, anyway, I worked at Kinko's and made a lot of calendars for people.
• 28:23
  I worked late a lot, I worked at night, know, till midnight or whenever we closed.
• 28:27
  I think maybe we might've been open 24 hours actually.
• 28:29
  Yeah, I think some of the original Kinkos
• 28:31
  And then you got all the randos coming in, you know, we'd had a guy come in who would bring in this male stripper who would come in and he would just give us to print out his
• 28:39
  flyers.
• 28:40
  He would just give us these like crumpled up singles.
• 28:43
  It was just like, dude, can't you at least try to make it look like they weren't like stuck in your underwear at some point?
• 28:51
  But yeah, printed all sorts of free calendars and made a lot of t-shirts there.
• 28:56
  We were bored.
• 28:58
  And then when does the idea of doing uh work abroad in Korea start to enter your mind?
• 29:04
  Well, I got involved in Second City Cleveland.
• 29:07
  That's a big part of the story.
• 29:09
  Okay, so that's happening first.
• 29:11
  Well, I quit the job at Kinko's after about eight months.
• 29:15
  And then...
• 29:17
  Found a job, I worked at tables for a while at Hula Hands, I was not great at that, didn't care for it.
• 29:22
  And then I got a job working at a law publishing firm.
• 29:26
  And hated that, I was editing law books, which is as bad as it sounds, truly.
• 29:31
  But it was a real job, which made my parents happy, it was like a legit corporate, blah, blah.
• 29:36
  During that period was when Second City Cleveland was coming, and I'd always known about Second City, because I'd always loved improv stuff.
• 29:43
  So I got involved with them and was taking the classes and met a lot of people through there.
• 29:48
  And yeah, I was involved in that for the entire, however long, I think it was about a three or four year period that it lasted.
• 29:54
  But those were good times.
• 29:56
  Those were like highlights of that period of my life was like the second city stuff was fun.
• 30:00
  So you're hanging around with funny people all the time.
• 30:02
  I wasn't on the main stage, but my girlfriend ended up getting on the main stage, which was tricky.
• 30:07
  yeah, I kind of like was the house manager.
• 30:09
  So I kind of, not the house manager, but I kind of like.
• 30:12
  was in charge of where everybody was sitting and everything.
• 30:14
  It wasn't a very important job, but I just wanted to be there.
• 30:17
  And yeah, there was a lot of partying that would go on afterwards, and that was the fun part.
• 30:21
  I met Fred Willard, Fred Willard and Tina Fey came to the opening of the theater.
• 30:25
  cool.
• 30:26
  Oh, and was Second City, I guess at that point it was the, there was the generation of Second City to SNL pipeline had happened, right?
• 30:37
  For sure.
• 30:37
  So was in its real heyday at that time.
• 30:39
  you
• 30:40
  Yeah, and they were planning to expand to a lot of places.
• 30:43
  Is this early 2000s?
• 30:45
  We're talking.
• 30:46
  Yeah, some about there.
• 30:47
  Yeah.
• 30:48
  They were going to expand to Vegas, I think, too, and LA.
• 30:51
  I don't know if that theater still exists, but they were expanding a lot and it was becoming kind of homogenized.
• 30:57
  Like what I loved about Second City, at least turn it away, is it was like it was like revolutionary in a way.
• 31:03
  It was like this whole new form of theater, you know.
• 31:07
  It just kind of became a packaged commodity in a way.
• 31:11
  make sense.
• 31:12
  Yeah, I mean, that's what happens with these things.
• 31:14
  was Second City and then it was uh what was Amy Poehler's theater.
• 31:20
  Upright Citizens Brigade.
• 31:21
  Yeah, that was that kind of took over for Second City in terms of the feeder, the feeder operation for SNL.
• 31:27
  Yeah, there's a lot of them in Chicago too, like Annoyance Theater and all these that are all the pipeline because Chicago is still the mecca for improv comedy, I think.
• 31:36
  Yeah, that's cool.
• 31:37
  Yeah, there are a lot of good life lessons in improv too.
• 31:42
  Yes, play to the top of your intelligence.
• 31:46
  eh Make your partner look better than you.
• 31:48
  Yeah.
• 31:48
  Yeah.
• 31:49
  I was really into Second City.
• 31:50
  I was really into that.
• 31:51
  And for a while, I think when that was happening, I think that I thought maybe I'd have a future in this.
• 31:55
  But then the auditions came and went and I kind of bombed the audition.
• 31:58
  And then the theater was managed kind of into the ground and it closed after about two years, which was sad, but it was a wonderful time.
• 32:07
  mean, the amount of money they must have been losing because the bartenders would just like be pouring us drinks all night for free.
• 32:12
  And it was just kind of like, you're just hemorrhaging money.
• 32:15
  But it was super fun, super, super fun period of time.
• 32:18
  And then I saw that closing.
• 32:19
  I dated one girl from there and then I dated another woman, Becky, who I'm still friends with, was dating her towards the end and she was moving to Israel to go, she was uh born
• 32:31
  again Christian at the time, and she was moving to Israel to go and get her masters in religious studies.
• 32:37
  we were dating for like eight months at the time and I was like, well, what am I gonna do next?
• 32:41
  Second city's closing, I need to.
• 32:43
  get my life moving, need to have some forward momentum of some sort.
• 32:47
  And my sister had lived and worked and taught in Taiwan for a couple of years and she really had, she traveled all over the world for a period of time when she was in her 20s.
• 32:55
  And so I knew that this could be a thing you could do.
• 32:57
  You know, I think that is a big, big part of it was just that my sister showed me you could do it.
• 33:02
  So yeah, I started looking into teaching in Asia and Korea was the one that I ended up going with.
• 33:09
  So yeah, when, when, when Becky moved to Israel,
• 33:13
  Maybe a month later, I moved to Korea in the end of 2003, maybe?
• 33:19
  South Korea.
• 33:20
  um It was a weird, it was, I mean, it's culture shock, because I was living in Incheon, which is like a big city comparatively to most cities in the US.
• 33:29
  It's a giant city.
• 33:30
  It's on the port there, but it's a very homogenous country.
• 33:33
  So you are often getting stared at or being, you know, hello, hello.
• 33:37
  think it's an experience everybody should have at some point in their life as being the other.
• 33:42
  by themselves in a country that all, I rarely would see white people anywhere.
• 33:48
  Except there was one bar in Incheon called the Duck Duck, and you'd go in there and suddenly you are, it was the expat bar, so it was people from all over the world that
• 33:56
  weren't Korean.
• 33:58
  It was kind of wild.
• 33:59
  I was in Incheon at that job, which was like a year contract to school, it was, Mr.
• 34:04
  Cho was the guy's name, very strange.
• 34:07
  I didn't have any teaching experience.
• 34:10
  It was really like, here's a book.
• 34:12
  Go teach.
• 34:13
  and um...
• 34:14
  And it was, oh the schedule was like insane.
• 34:17
  Like it was, I was teaching all the time.
• 34:20
  I teaching so many different ages.
• 34:22
  I would teach like five year olds and six year olds.
• 34:24
  And then I teach like teenagers and then like adults too.
• 34:27
  And I had no idea what the fuck I was doing.
• 34:29
  So it was very, very stressful.
• 34:31
  And frankly, you you can put them up in an apartment, at least back then.
• 34:36
  I don't know if they still do this, but they would put you up in an apartment for the year that you're teaching there.
• 34:40
  And the apartment was kind of a piece of crap too.
• 34:42
  And then after about, I think it was two or three months, I realized that I have to get out of this.
• 34:46
  Oh no.
• 34:47
  Why?
• 34:49
  because I was just not happy.
• 34:50
  had no support.
• 34:51
  was the only English speaker, really.
• 34:53
  Mr.
• 34:53
  Chose spoke English okay.
• 34:55
  I think one of the other teachers spoke it okay, but really there was not even a lot of English spoken.
• 35:00
  So I was very isolating in that way as well.
• 35:03
  And like, I just didn't have any guidance at all.
• 35:05
  And I felt...
• 35:07
  I just hated it.
• 35:08
  really, I mean, that was the end of it.
• 35:09
  I just felt alone and very isolated.
• 35:12
  And so then I met some other people who were teaching and told them about what it was like at my school.
• 35:16
  And they were telling me about what it was like at their schools.
• 35:18
  And I realized, oh, this is bad.
• 35:20
  This is not what it's supposed to be like.
• 35:23
  Like they were talking about how much guidance they'd been given and how much, know, system, you know.
• 35:28
  So I made a very difficult decision to like flee.
• 35:32
  I...
• 35:33
  What do mean fleet?
• 35:34
  I lived in the apartment that they kept me in, so I basically packed up all my stuff.
• 35:40
  I actually found another teacher to take over for me because I was trying to be as good about this as I could given the situation.
• 35:49
  Then I just cleaned the apartment and sent that teacher to school instead of me one day.
• 35:54
  Then I went.
• 35:55
  I stayed with the friends of mine actually in their house, in their apartment because they had an extra room in their apartment.
• 36:00
  stayed with them for like-
• 36:01
  there?
• 36:02
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for like two or three weeks.
• 36:04
  And that was super fun.
• 36:06
  Morell and Joe from Australia, we had a good time together.
• 36:08
  And then I flew to Thailand to get a, because the game was you could get a tourist visa and then teach illegally and make a lot more money in Seoul.
• 36:18
  So I went to Thailand.
• 36:19
  I planned to go just for a couple of days to get a tourist visa, but like I ended up staying for like two weeks because it was incredibly cheap and I got a cabana on the beach
• 36:27
  on the islands down in the south of Thailand.
• 36:29
  It was beautiful.
• 36:30
  Had a great time.
• 36:31
  And then.
• 36:31
  And.
• 36:34
  found a place to live in Seoul.
• 36:37
  Slowly but surely started finding like private students to teach in different kind of schools.
• 36:41
  Like I would teach part-time at one school and then have some private students and stuff and had a much better time frankly because there were a lot more expats there.
• 36:49
  Not that I didn't want to meet Koreans but it was difficult because they spoke Korean a lot of the time.
• 36:54
  Um
• 36:56
  And I didn't speak very good Korean.
• 36:57
  I could read it, but I couldn't.
• 37:00
  And yeah, I was in Seoul for, I don't know, about a year, year and a half teaching different kinds of schools.
• 37:04
  And the funny thing is at the very end of my time there, I knew I had to leave because it was like, can't stay there too long.
• 37:09
  It's a very easy life.
• 37:10
  And at the very end, was like, I knew I had to leave, but I got the best job that I'd had the entire time I'd been in Korea.
• 37:16
  Like was this amazing school, this like very expensive school.
• 37:20
  And they had like a very locked down curriculum.
• 37:23
  And I was teaching like
• 37:24
  Hemingway to high school kids and they were like loving me as a teacher.
• 37:27
  I was like using my comedy and being funny and they got the jokes and then their parents would come in and praise me.
• 37:33
  It was just a, and they paid me a ton of money and it just sucked that it was towards the end because uh yeah, that was a great, that was actually, it was good to leave on that
• 37:41
  note at least though.
• 37:43
  What was the one where it was your birthday?
• 37:46
  Oh yeah, yeah, when I was at that first school, because I moved to Korea and I think it was October of that year, wherever it was, right when I turned 30, right?
• 37:53
  So was 29 when I moved there and I turned 30 in December of that year, on December 4th, it's my birthday.
• 37:59
  Yeah, the school had this very strange birthday party for me where I sat at a table, at a long, you know, folding table in front of a classroom.
• 38:09
  They pulled out all this food, like big piles of like sweets and fruits and everything, this giant spread.
• 38:15
  and
• 38:15
  put a sign up that says happy birthday in English and then had every single class get their picture with me, you know, and everything.
• 38:20
  And then I'm thinking, we're to get to have a feast here.
• 38:23
  And then they just put the food away and gave us each like one choco pie.
• 38:29
  Just like, I'm fucking out.
• 38:31
  culture is different.
• 38:32
  It's like cultural differences.
• 38:33
  I don't know.
• 38:33
  You know, it was, it was a strange one.
• 38:35
  It was a weird, weird way to turn 30.
• 38:37
  I'll say that.
• 38:40
  Any love interests in your time in Korea?
• 38:42
  No
• 38:43
  not any Korean women.
• 38:46
  kind of, I don't know if it was intentional, but it just seemed complicated to date Korean women and I didn't even know how to really approach, you know, I'm still pretty awkward at
• 38:55
  this age and my self-confidence is not all that great in that arena.
• 38:59
  But I did meet, I was, it was about three or four months before I was about to leave.
• 39:03
  I was on, I went to the DMZ tour, you know, can go to the Demilitarized Zone.
• 39:09
  you can like walk into like,
• 39:10
  Well, you can like basically step in North Korea.
• 39:12
  It's an amazing tour.
• 39:13
  Anyway, uh met this woman on that trip.
• 39:16
  uh She doesn't talk to me anymore.
• 39:22
  Lauren Varney, that was her name.
• 39:24
  And she was a beautiful, beautiful woman.
• 39:27
  And we just hit it off on this trip and just started being very flirty.
• 39:30
  And then we went out to dinner and had honestly one of the most romantic dates.
• 39:35
  we had, I think we had Thai food.
• 39:37
  Then we went to this like bar to have drinks and like the bar was like shutting down but we were like dancing in the bar because it was playing they were playing like Ella
• 39:45
  Fitzgerald or something.
• 39:46
  So we're like dancing in the bar as it's closing down.
• 39:49
  No, and some guys looking at his watch, you know.
• 39:51
  Yeah, really, it was very quick kind of infatuation kind of thing.
• 39:55
  She was just visiting Korea because she was teaching in Japan.
• 39:58
  She went back to Japan.
• 40:00
  But then I was like, well, I'll come see you, you know, in Japan after I'm done with this.
• 40:04
  with my time here, I'll come to Japan first and stay with you for a couple weeks and then go home.
• 40:09
  So, yeah, we kept in touch and then I did go see her in Gifu, Japan.
• 40:14
  And that was really fun.
• 40:15
  She lived, I mean, Gifu was in the middle of nowhere.
• 40:17
  So it was an interesting experience.
• 40:19
  There was an earthquake while I was there.
• 40:20
  That was exciting.
• 40:23
  Yeah, but it was pretty cool.
• 40:24
  went to Kyoto, other cities.
• 40:28
  Why don't you blame her for never talking to you again?
• 40:31
  Well, so then when I was in Korea, that's when I started getting the film bug.
• 40:35
  I was always into films, I think, because I remember seeing Woody Allen's Annie Hall and being blown away by the fact that you could make like a cinematically beautiful comedy,
• 40:44
  because comedy to me at that point had been like these, you know, poorly made, whatever.
• 40:49
  But then in Korea, I had a like an old power shot camera that probably shot, you know, 480p or something, you know, could shoot limited video, but it shot video and I was
• 40:58
  totally into it.
• 40:59
  So I would shoot video all the time and then I got Premiere Pro.
• 41:02
  I think I pirated it actually and just kind of taught myself how to edit.
• 41:06
  It made this montage of my videos that I'd shot in Korea.
• 41:10
  Yeah, just playing with, you know, being able to do speed ramps, know, speeding things up, slowing things down, reversing things and editing the music.
• 41:17
  was all, uh it was all really exciting to me.
• 41:20
  And so I thought, what am I going to do when I get out of here?
• 41:22
  I got to have a plan when I leave Korea.
• 41:24
  So I was really into, I had gone to see Becky in Israel.
• 41:28
  and started getting very much into Israel, like Middle Eastern politics at the time I was reading books about it.
• 41:33
  So I thought I was like debating between going into Middle Eastern studies or going into film.
• 41:39
  Fortunately, I went into film because good Lord, I couldn't imagine going into Middle Eastern studies.
• 41:44
  Like that doesn't fit my personality at all.
• 41:46
  I started to look into film schools and I didn't have a lot of like work, but I did have some like stuff that I'd edited together to show that I had some sense of chops, you know.
• 41:56
  One of them was this weird.
• 41:58
  video of a, we blew up a watermelon with a quarter stick of dynamite on one fourth of July.
• 42:04
  And I just remixed it into like a very bizarre, you know, backwards and forward, slow motion, all this kind of crazy.
• 42:11
  It's called, My God, It Makes You.
• 42:13
  I'll put a link in the show notes for that one.
• 42:16
  So yeah, but then got into the Savannah College of Art and Design, which is one of the most expensive art schools in the country.
• 42:23
  So that was great.
• 42:24
  But you know, I wasn't thinking about.
• 42:25
  Like I was thinking, I'll be able to make money.
• 42:27
  If I go into film school, you can make a ton of money, know, can pay that off easy.
• 42:31
  And then, yeah, that's why I moved back to Cleveland for that summer and then went to, started going to SCAD to get my A in film.
• 42:39
  and that fall.
• 42:41
  Is this the answer to the question, why didn't the girl from Japan want to talk to you anymore?
• 42:46
  Good point.
• 42:47
  um So, you know, me and Lauren were going to try to keep the relationship going, but she was still in Japan.
• 42:54
  And then I got to film school and this woman, uh younger, beautiful woman was very much into me to a degree that was like, whoa, you know, and she was there and she was also a
• 43:05
  film person.
• 43:06
  like we had very much a connection.
• 43:08
  And I broke up with Lauren.
• 43:11
  And after I broke up with Lauren, this woman who was
• 43:14
  at one point very interested in me started to not be interested in me because aren't people fickle.
• 43:19
  m Yeah.
• 43:21
  What year is this?
• 43:24
  2005-ish, 2006, something like that.
• 43:26
  Okay, so this is not the girl who's in your film suite.
• 43:31
  Yeah, yeah.
• 43:32
  uh
• 43:33
  We went on a couple dates, but we never actually dated.
• 43:37
  So she was just an actress that wasn't, cause it seemed so, we can get into this in a more formal way maybe, but I assume this film suite, which is kind of a, it's like a pastiche
• 43:49
  sort of somewhat experimental relationship video.
• 43:53
  That was like a, that was a school project, I assume.
• 43:57
  Yeah, that just happened.
• 43:58
  I had this idea.
• 43:59
  We wanted to do me and my friend Ryan Dickey, who I went to school with, who you know, who shot a dog.
• 44:05
  D.P.
• 44:06
  Great DP.
• 44:07
  Yeah, great guy.
• 44:08
  He's shot everything that I've made, I think, actually.
• 44:11
  Yeah, so we were going to make, I had this idea there was a lighthouse in the bay there in Savannah, the Tybee Island Bay, I forget what the name of it is, but there was this old
• 44:21
  lighthouse that was not being used and it was the coolest looking thing and it was surrounded by water.
• 44:26
  And I had this idea to do this, like, Johanna was gonna be in that one as well and it was just this relationship drama that takes place in the confined space of a lighthouse.
• 44:34
  I don't remember the details.
• 44:36
  I feel like I've heard iterations of this idea.
• 44:38
  no, I've been stewing on this idea for 30 years or 20 years now.
• 44:42
  But you did write something.
• 44:45
  Yeah, no, I've got stuff in my present.
• 44:47
  Yeah, yeah, I didn't.
• 44:48
  I never finished the feature.
• 44:50
  I still don't know how to finish it.
• 44:51
  But at some point, maybe when I'm 70 or 60 or maybe next year.
• 44:55
  So we ended up buying a dinghy like I bought a dinghy, like a little boat, you know, sporting goods store.
• 45:01
  And we drove the dinghy out to this with no life jackets and just like rode out to the lighthouse to do a location scout.
• 45:06
  And it was it was dangerous.
• 45:08
  Like you get out there and we were starting to get tossed around.
• 45:10
  We, you know.
• 45:12
  But we got on the lighthouse and I still have a great video of that, of our locations cut out there.
• 45:17
  But I tried to get permits from the Parks Department or something and they were like, well, you weren't even supposed to be on that lighthouse.
• 45:23
  So we didn't get permits and I had like, I think a week to finish this project.
• 45:28
  So I was like, all right, pivoting.
• 45:31
  Which was a revelation in a way because it was like, you'll film us walking around at magic hour.
• 45:35
  I'll do this thing in this bar.
• 45:37
  We'll bring the camera to the bar and we'll reenact this.
• 45:39
  And it just kind of came together.
• 45:41
  and
• 45:41
  Yeah, I was really happy with how that came out actually uh for being as as slapdash as it was it has a vibe to it
• 45:49
  What was the assignment?
• 45:50
  It was just a directing final.
• 45:52
  Okay, so you could just do whatever you wanted.
• 45:55
  Kind of, yeah.
• 45:55
  I think I emailed the professor and was like, hey, can I pivot because we can't get the lighthouse?
• 45:59
  he's like, got an A, got an A.
• 46:03
  So how do we get to coverage, which I would say feels like your first kind of serious short film.
• 46:12
  Is that fair to Yeah.
• 46:14
  Yeah, that was like my thesis film.
• 46:16
  So I wanted it to be good.
• 46:17
  That was like what I was gonna come out with.
• 46:19
  and just to describe coverage just briefly.
• 46:23
  Coverage is a movie about a man who becomes sexually obsessed with 9-11 footage.
• 46:29
  It's a relationship drama, but 9-11 happens and then the relationship kind of begins to unravel because he gets this addiction to 9-11 footage.
• 46:38
  Yeah, which is interesting because, I hadn't seen it in years and I went back and rewatch it and I feel like I had your description of the movie in my head more than the movie
• 46:47
  itself.
• 46:48
  And I was I was surprised to at my experience rewatching it because it's it's not I think when you describe it the way you do, it kind of comes off as if it's like this a little
• 47:01
  bit silly, maybe absurdist kind of a thing.
• 47:04
  But the reality is that this is a guy who's numb.
• 47:07
  who's not able to be intimate or get aroused before 9-11.
• 47:15
  it's kind of, think watching it through the lens, even, I think I first watched it maybe 10 years ago when we first met.
• 47:22
  And then watching it again where society is now, the hyper-stimulative nature of media.
• 47:30
  And it's cool, it puts it in a new context.
• 47:34
  There was a Burroughs, like a William Burroughs quote that I was always thinking about when I was making that.
• 47:38
  was something about the repetition and impact of image creates sexual arousal or something like that.
• 47:43
  I was always struck by that.
• 47:44
  And then there's films like Crash, like Cronenberg's Crash, which was about em people fetishizing car crashes that was also kind of a loose influence there.
• 47:54
  Yeah, it's a human drama.
• 47:55
  I'm proud of that film.
• 47:57
  And the fact that I actually got it made was the amazing part, because the school...
• 48:01
  didn't really want to have anything to do with it, although we did use some of their gear, but I had one professor, Mike Nolan, who was a really strange, cool guy.
• 48:09
  I really liked him.
• 48:10
  And he was the one who was like, this is the film you have to make, I'm so grateful because I had some other ideas for films that I was going to make and they were all kind
• 48:19
  of lame.
• 48:19
  And he's like, this is the interesting one.
• 48:22
  And I was, he was right.
• 48:23
  He was totally right.
• 48:24
  Was that film shot in Savannah or in New York?
• 48:26
  Yeah, we rented a house and then rented a bunch of furniture from Brenna Center and like it was a house that was on the market.
• 48:32
  So the guy who rented it us said we could pay so we could paint it and stuff.
• 48:37
  yeah, this giant old mansion.
• 48:39
  now, yeah, that's the only location.
• 48:40
  That was kind of my one thing that I wanted to do was to have a place, a thing I could shoot on one location just to keep it simple.
• 48:47
  Yeah, the performances are really strong and there's some there's some very strong imagery.
• 48:53
  I mean, the shooting style, I feel like is is, your style that you kind of stuck with for coverage and to a certain extent into adult.
• 49:02
  Honestly, it's that's Ryan Dickey.
• 49:03
  I mean, it's me and Ryan Dickey, but like we always kind of understood each other and he kind of just got like.
• 49:08
  not to spoil it, but the image of towards the end when Michael is very kind of furiously masturbating with the headphones on.
• 49:17
  And that is one of the, maybe one of the more disturbing cinematic images I've seen.
• 49:24
  uh
• 49:26
  with the rag in his mouth, sock in his mouth.
• 49:28
  was that part of the script the sock in his mouth or is that?
• 49:31
  uh
• 49:32
  I don't remember if that was on, we figured that out then or not.
• 49:35
  was, that was a big collaboration.
• 49:36
  I, uh this auteur theory thing with filmmaking, it's all bullshit because filmmaking is the most collaborative thing and any of my films, they wouldn't have been nearly as good
• 49:46
  had I not embraced collaboration, I feel like, like I did because like I would even meet with Michael and Laura the actor and actress every day before we shot and we'd rewrite
• 49:54
  parts of the script just based on what we'd already shot and how it had been different.
• 49:58
  Cause there was some improv in there and it was really a fun.
• 50:01
  a fun process.
• 50:02
  Do you want to get into your collaboration with Michael at all?
• 50:06
  Yeah, we met in the theater school.
• 50:07
  Right.
• 50:07
  Yeah, in like fourth grade maybe.
• 50:09
  And then remained friends during college even though he went to Juilliard and I was at OU.
• 50:15
  Went to Russia together.
• 50:17
  Went on my first international trip when I was an undergrad.
• 50:20
  We got a grant together to go to Russia, a fellowship.
• 50:23
  And then.
• 50:23
  ah
• 50:25
  when it came time to do my thesis film, he was the only person I really thought of being in it.
• 50:29
  I was like, of course I want Michael to be in it.
• 50:32
  He had found Laura, who was the female actress in that.
• 50:36
  And she was, I think, excited about it too, because it's, you know, it's an interesting idea if you're wanting to do edgy stuff, like it was totally edgy, right?
• 50:42
  She was.
• 50:46
  The bedroom scene in particular, when she's like admitting it to him, that was a tough one to get because it was like, it's such a weird thing to even be talking about.
• 50:52
  But I feel like they brought a humanity to it.
• 50:54
  The capacity to stay grounded in the reality of that situation would have made her break that thing because it could have gone so south without those performances.
• 51:04
  And then there is some comedy in it, I thought was like, you know, there's a great, you know, that great line.
• 51:08
  If you don't fuck me right now, the terrorists are going to win.
• 51:11
  Yeah.
• 51:12
  Yeah, but it wasn't like a joke.
• 51:15
  It was a joke for each other in the world of the movie.
• 51:19
  Yes.
• 51:19
  More than it was for the audience, which made it almost when I was watching it made it feel almost like sweet.
• 51:24
  Yeah.
• 51:26
  He came down from New York for that?
• 51:27
  Yeah, I flew them both in from New York and I'm in a hotel and all that.
• 51:31
  And I did start dating Laura before we started shooting that film.
• 51:36
  Really upset him.
• 51:39
  He claimed it was because he thought it was going to screw up the film or something.
• 51:41
  And I was like, it's not going to do that.
• 51:43
  You had met her through him and she was in New York.
• 51:47
  She was in New York, I think the first time we met, had dinner together, me and Laura and Michael had dinner.
• 51:52
  It was clear that night that like me and Laura had a thing for each other.
• 51:55
  So yeah, coverage went well.
• 52:00
  Moved to New York, moved in with Laura there.
• 52:04
  wow, I didn't know that.
• 52:05
  Yeah, but in the kitchen, she had an apartment.
• 52:10
  Me and Michael were still very good friends and uh we're still, you know, I edited a film that he had made called Gold Star Ohio, uh which actually has the guy who's the big famous
• 52:19
  guy now who's in everything.
• 52:20
  He was in the star Wars.
• 52:21
  What's his name?
• 52:23
  Adam driver.
• 52:24
  And I remember editing him and there was like one scene with him and I was like, I didn't know who this guy was at the time.
• 52:28
  He was not well known.
• 52:30
  And I was like, this guy's got and I was right.
• 52:33
  And then we both went through a breakup because Laura ended up, you know, kind of cheating on me on us.
• 52:37
  that end.
• 52:39
  Then we came up, we were sitting and drinking wine in our bar in Brooklyn and came up with the idea for FTLF because he'd gotten dumped as well.
• 52:46
  interesting.
• 52:46
  So Laura was the dumping that inspired after you left.
• 52:51
  It was Laura and his getting dumped as well.
• 52:53
  was a double dump.
• 52:54
  The double D.
• 52:55
  And so we were in a bar just talking about what we're going to do with these sadness.
• 52:58
  And so we thought, let's just try to make a movie.
• 53:00
  And we started writing down like a loose outline and wanted to do it improvised.
• 53:05
  We were going to shoot a feature, but just started shooting stuff.
• 53:08
  randomly and
• 53:09
  Never ended up finishing the thing to make a feature, but I just kind of edited together what we had and made it the best thing I could.
• 53:17
  It got into one festival that had given me an award in the year before.
• 53:21
  So I think it was kind of a gimme, but, everybody loved it there, but then didn't get into anything because I submitted it to a ton of stuff and I'd only submitted it to Sundance
• 53:28
  because I had submitted coverage to Sundance and you could submit for free if you, if you submitted before.
• 53:33
  And so I submitted it and then yeah, and Thanksgiving of that year, 2010.
• 53:39
  That was Allone on Thanksgiving and my
• 53:41
  and got a phone call.
• 53:43
  saying that, got into Sundance Film Festival, which, you know, at the time, it felt like, you I immediately call Michael.
• 53:50
  It was a real beautiful moment, honestly, because it was like we'd been friends for years, and now we had been started to be creative friends together again.
• 53:58
  Yeah, ended up, you know, finding a little piece of magic there for 500 bucks.
• 54:03
  bucks.
• 54:04
  Yeah.
• 54:05
  uh
• 54:06
  Sundance, brought a lot of the cast with us.
• 54:09
  It's a director's festival though, so I got attention.
• 54:12
  I don't think he cared for that.
• 54:14
  All the parties and stuff.
• 54:16
  Then afterwards, we were trying to deal with like the money stuff, paying people back and dealing with all that.
• 54:24
  I was totally unemployed at the time, so I had to buy an asthma inhaler.
• 54:28
  So I knew I took some of the money out to buy an inhaler so that I could continue to live.
• 54:33
  He accused me of stealing the money.
• 54:35
  And over that.
• 54:37
  oh
• 54:38
  not sure if stealing the money was actually the thing.
• 54:42
  If there was something else, it still sticks with me.
• 54:45
  And then he would be these, send me these crazy emails, suggesting we make competing versions.
• 54:49
  Cause I was meeting with all these, you know, production companies at the time.
• 54:53
  They were all asking for like a feature length version, which was our plan was to make a feature.
• 54:57
  We'd already started writing it.
• 54:59
  And he was a co-producer, so I couldn't, I couldn't do anything.
• 55:03
  and go forward with it and he wouldn't let me go forward with it and he would suggest like why don't we do competing versions of it and see who's is better and it was just like what
• 55:10
  dude what are we even talking about?
• 55:13
  Really like my heart that was one of the most difficult things I went through and in my life was losing Michael as a friend because he was like
• 55:22
  New York.
• 55:24
  We were working together on this production company.
• 55:26
  We were doing all these things.
• 55:27
  And then we got into Sundance and then the world opened up.
• 55:31
  We snapped it shut.
• 55:33
  you know.
• 55:34
  Yeah, it's weird.
• 55:35
  feels like you guys that, you know, his career didn't, doesn't appear to have really moved much.
• 55:42
  No, no.
• 55:43
  And I really just don't understand why you would.
• 55:45
  know, collaboration is difficult, right?
• 55:48
  There's going to be arguments.
• 55:49
  There's going to be difficult things, right?
• 55:51
  I'm not saying that I'm innocent here.
• 55:52
  Like, I was not probably an easy person to work with at times.
• 55:55
  I tried to be as, I mean, who knows?
• 55:58
  I can't see myself from back then, but the way he portrayed me was as if I had been just this kind of exploiting everybody's all this acting work and all this stuff just to get
• 56:09
  what I wanted.
• 56:10
  And I was like,
• 56:10
  I don't understand that like.
• 56:13
  That's all about what people are their own stories.
• 56:17
  Right.
• 56:17
  of course, of course.
• 56:19
  But it's hard at the time to get it because I just I could understand, know, just not wanting to be my friend anymore.
• 56:25
  I it would still have been hard, but to not want to be my friend and to basically throw away Sundance.
• 56:33
  Yeah, like that was like he must really fucking hate me, you know.
• 56:37
  Or there's some fear of success in a certain way.
• 56:41
  mean, I think it feels like a self-sabotaging force.
• 56:45
  I came to find out, he was a little bit bipolar or something because I ended up meeting one of his girlfriends when he was dating when we went to Sundance and she told me a whole
• 56:54
  other side of the story that I was like, oh, all right, this all makes sense now.
• 56:57
  Like he has anger issues.
• 56:58
  He was like kind of stalking her and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 57:02
  was an enlightening story.
• 57:05
  Right.
• 57:05
  Well, who knows, but there are a lot of bipolar people who are still successful actors in Hollywood.
• 57:10
  at least shine some light on some of like the aggressive and anger issues that came out of
• 57:14
  nowhere, you know.
• 57:15
  He's got the goods.
• 57:16
  mean, he's great to watch.
• 57:18
  He is.
• 57:19
  Interesting choices in a very subtle way, which I appreciate it.
• 57:23
  also see it was seeing we've gotten into such a, you know, not to this isn't like I'm not making a try not to make a political statement here, but just culturally we've we've moved
• 57:34
  into a place where rightly so, I'd say in a lot of ways.
• 57:39
  non white male stories are being centered more and more, especially in like the short film and like artistic filmmaking world.
• 57:46
  Yeah.
• 57:47
  And to see uh a movie, you know, that was just like about male intimacy and friend and friendship and the way that it shows up and the way it doesn't show up and all that.
• 58:01
  I just it really warmed my heart, to be honest, in a way that it's been a while since I've seen.
• 58:07
  Since I felt that way, since I've seen myself portrayed on screen, there's a scene with him and I think it's him and Garrett up on the roof where he talks about just trying to
• 58:17
  cry.
• 58:19
  And that experience and that just really resonated with me a lot now.
• 58:24
  Cause I'm also older.
• 58:25
  was 10 years ago that I first.
• 58:27
  Right, you're the age that I was when I made that
• 58:29
  Yeah, yeah.
• 58:35
  But it's a double edged sword because
• 58:38
  Under suite, em
• 58:39
  Bittersweet.
• 58:40
  but...
• 58:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 58:43
  So when did you join the Brooklyn Filmmakers Collective?
• 58:47
  Because that's where we met.
• 58:49
  That's where we met.
• 58:49
  That was a
• 58:50
  Probably the year or two after Sundance, because they'd always been on my radar, but I thought, so I can probably get in.
• 58:58
  Because at the time, it was big.
• 58:59
  When I got in there, there was a lot of applications.
• 59:01
  I don't know what it's like now.
• 59:02
  At the time, it was definitely an early elite organization, a collective that people wanted to be involved in.
• 59:08
  Yeah, I think I joined in 2012 maybe.
• 59:13
  Yeah, I remember you like in the group, but it wasn't until you brought in, I think it was just an audio recording that you had done with Garrett.
• 59:23
  There were little videos we had made like a test thing with Garrett and Nick as well in my house.
• 59:29
  Remember I'm playing the accordion.
• 59:30
  oh It's not my fault.
• 59:32
  oh
• 59:34
  I watched recently and they're still funny.
• 59:36
  Maybe I'll put links to those.
• 59:39
  But yeah, just shot some random stuff in my apartment.
• 59:42
  some friends and uh
• 59:45
  cut it together and played it just to see what people thought if they thought it was funny or if anything was there.
• 59:50
  You came up to me afterwards and you were like, hey, I love that.
• 59:55
  I wanted to produce it.
• 59:55
  And I was like...
• 59:57
  Yeah, great.
• 59:58
  Yeah, I just remember seeing it and I was like, this is great.
• 1:00:01
  It's like there was something to it.
• 1:00:03
  yeah, and then I remember having that first meeting with, I think, Garrett joined.
• 1:00:09
  No, at a coffee house, we sat outside a coffee house and talked and we're thinking, I didn't know you that well.
• 1:00:14
  And we just started talking and I was like, this guy I like.
• 1:00:17
  Like I remember thinking that I liked you right away.
• 1:00:20
  and yeah.
• 1:00:20
  um
• 1:00:22
  We have a very similar way of kind seeing the world, I think, and I think we have the same sense of humor in a lot of ways.
• 1:00:26
  And I think that we just connected right away.
• 1:00:29
  I just want to say, Chris, like you brought so much to that project, particularly in that character you played, which is one of the most prescient characters I've ever had in any
• 1:00:35
  film talking about Bitcoin 10 years ago.
• 1:00:38
  I
• 1:00:38
  Yeah, only I had taken that character's advice.
• 1:00:41
  I know, right?
• 1:00:41
  That's the funny thing.
• 1:00:45
  I was thinking the same thing when I
• 1:00:46
  rewatching that.
• 1:00:47
  was like, uh, hopefully I remember.
• 1:00:49
  Yeah, that was fun.
• 1:00:50
  That was a fun project to work on in spite of the issues that we had at time.
• 1:00:54
  and
• 1:00:54
  Yeah, we got in some fights in that project.
• 1:00:56
  I had few temper tantrums and so forth, but...
• 1:00:59
  I
• 1:01:00
  was not yet as zen at handling my own emotions.
• 1:01:07
  And it's all it was, you know, in retrospect, all of those disagreements were all from wanting everything to be the best possible thing.
• 1:01:15
  know what I mean?
• 1:01:17
  Discouragement that is almost inevitable in the filmmaking process when you start bringing things together and you're like, oh, man, this is not.
• 1:01:24
  what I thought it was going to be.
• 1:01:25
  And then you get over that and you find you just are with it for what it is, which especially with an improvised thing, you know, you have to let that original vision die so
• 1:01:36
  you can rediscover what it is with the material that you've got, know, which is, you can fall in love with that too, which is what ultimately happened.
• 1:01:47
  But I think there was that moment in between where I was feeling so discouraged for whatever reason.
• 1:01:52
  I don't even remember why.
• 1:01:53
  No, I-
• 1:01:54
  I went through a lot of emotions during that shoot.
• 1:01:56
  I realized early on that I was like, should not be directing and trying to star in an improvised thing of any sort.
• 1:02:01
  But I mean, I think it worked out.
• 1:02:04
  And then the editing thing took like two years, which was the biggest struggle.
• 1:02:08
  You know, I thought that since after you left was somewhat easier.
• 1:02:12
  It wasn't that difficult to find the edit there.
• 1:02:14
  I I spent a lot of time on it, but it wasn't nearly as hard.
• 1:02:16
  But I think it was also because it was kind of smaller.
• 1:02:19
  Like it wasn't as much footage, I don't think.
• 1:02:21
  There was also a lot of plot machination in adults, whereas with coverage, was a very like, was a reflection of vignettes and it kind of was like a poem or, and adults was not
• 1:02:34
  really a poem.
• 1:02:35
  It was much more of a story.
• 1:02:37
  Yeah.
• 1:02:38
  And I think we were trying to do what Curb Your Enthusiasm does and follow their template of, know, where do we need to get by the end of this scene in order for the story to make
• 1:02:47
  sense?
• 1:02:48
  degree.
• 1:02:48
  mean, that's what you have to do with improv in general, right?
• 1:02:50
  I mean,
• 1:02:51
  Yeah, my recommendation since that project for people has been to not do improvisation.
• 1:03:00
  Just because, you know, because I worked with another film recently where they she was very committed to wanting to do improv and she was also directing and writing and starring
• 1:03:10
  and all the things.
• 1:03:12
  And I feel like especially actor actors.
• 1:03:15
  who are used to having lines, like it's hard for them to relax into a character when they don't know.
• 1:03:21
  Yes, for sure.
• 1:03:22
  What's they also have to think about writing it at the same time, you know.
• 1:03:25
  You're asking a
• 1:03:27
  And I think that that was part of the reason that I was like, because like, who was I going to find to act in that?
• 1:03:31
  Me.
• 1:03:32
  Yeah, no.
• 1:03:33
  ah
• 1:03:34
  But also that story kind of was both of the dynamic that me and Garrett had.
• 1:03:38
  real life.
• 1:03:39
  That was also a big part of it.
• 1:03:41
  That was a big part of it for sure.
• 1:03:42
  I mean, he's such a unique on screen presence.
• 1:03:47
  brings such a weird interesting thing to that.
• 1:03:49
  I had a great way.
• 1:03:54
  And his wife is fabulous as well, Jen.
• 1:03:59
  Yeah.
• 1:03:59
  Yeah.
• 1:03:59
  You do have a way of collaborators.
• 1:04:04
  Yeah.
• 1:04:06
  I mean, it's true,
• 1:04:08
  But I don't think in Garrett's case I did anything wrong.
• 1:04:11
  I think Garrett was talking about not wanting to be an acting at all for a long time.
• 1:04:16
  He has meds at the time, you know, and I think that he, cause he's literally bipolar.
• 1:04:22
  Yeah, that might be it.
• 1:04:23
  You know, might be kind of working with a lot of people.
• 1:04:27
  But yeah, I I don't think that that one had anything to do with because they moved to upstate New York.
• 1:04:32
  implication of me saying that was not to put the blame on your lap.
• 1:04:37
  I have sure understandable, but it is an interesting, yeah, it's an interesting kind of like a little bit of a, but you know, I don't think it's so uncommon though.
• 1:04:45
  think being in a creative field where it's so it's this combination of vulnerability and to a certain extent competition and you put everything out there and there's expectations
• 1:04:57
  and you.
• 1:04:58
  you know, as an actor, you have control, but you don't have control, you know, it's like, think it's just a difficult dynamic.
• 1:05:05
  And there's a reason why most people who are in film, they become a family on the film set and they love each other and then they never talk again.
• 1:05:13
  Like that, that's very common.
• 1:05:15
  Yeah, and I
• 1:05:16
  funny thing about that is that Garrett was an after, I mean, I met Garrett because of Michael and after you left.
• 1:05:21
  Then after the fallout with Michael, I didn't communicate with any of the people that I had been friends with through him except for like Nick.
• 1:05:29
  And then I just ran into Garrett at a coffee house in Park Slope and we just started talking and we started talking like we talk in the show and we're like, this is funny, we
• 1:05:37
  should make something.
• 1:05:38
  And that's how.
• 1:05:40
  So.
• 1:05:41
  Yeah, the show really is that dynamic.
• 1:05:43
  However you describe that, that chemistry between the two of you is really the foundational adults.
• 1:05:50
  It was...
• 1:05:51
  We had a funny...
• 1:05:52
  Fandamic.
• 1:05:53
  Missed the guy.
• 1:05:53
  Missed the guy.
• 1:05:54
  Yeah, me too.
• 1:05:56
  All right.
• 1:05:56
  Well, so that's that's the film career so far for the most part.
• 1:06:01
  Yeah.
• 1:06:02
  And then you left New York after that.
• 1:06:07
  I'm still sad about it.
• 1:06:10
  You were, I mean, 10 years was enough for me.
• 1:06:12
  think maybe when you get to be in your mid forties, you might be ready to go to.
• 1:06:16
  mean, of course my re leaving was because I had no work.
• 1:06:19
  And like, that was the story of a lot of my life in New York was that I just consistent work, consistently eluded me.
• 1:06:27
  Last year I was there.
• 1:06:28
  just, uh, nothing was coming.
• 1:06:30
  And I, but I mean, I really lived off of Bitcoin for a lot of that year.
• 1:06:33
  was amazing.
• 1:06:35
  You know, I ended up getting, I had a job that was paying me a fortune.
• 1:06:38
  It was like,
• 1:06:39
  800, like that.
• 1:06:40
  $25,000 an hour day or so much, but of course I wasn't taking it out of my taxes or paying quarterly So I got a bill for like a $25,000 in taxes now.
• 1:06:48
  I'm sustainable So like I got to get out of here ah And I just started looking for jobs anyway Yeah, just one click apply on LinkedIn for Hollister in Columbus and I already knew
• 1:07:00
  people Dad was kind of getting a little bit sick at this point.
• 1:07:04
  So I thought this is not the worst thing to happen You know cousins here.
• 1:07:08
  I've seen friends
• 1:07:09
  So you were at Hollister basically until the pandemic more or less, right?
• 1:07:13
  Yeah, but.
• 1:07:15
  Did you get laid off there or did you leave the job?
• 1:07:17
  And then.
• 1:07:21
  Right, classic.
• 1:07:22
  I was very excited about the job at first.
• 1:07:24
  They kind of been like during the interviews, they've been like, we love these wacky creative things.
• 1:07:28
  And I was like, this is great.
• 1:07:29
  They like the weird stuff.
• 1:07:31
  But then of course you want you get into a corporate structure.
• 1:07:34
  I still kind of kept my, my weird vibe kind of a thing, but it was still selling clothes for teenagers, which wasn't entirely fulfilling.
• 1:07:42
  People seem to really enjoy it.
• 1:07:44
  be in these department meetings, know, and sold and.
• 1:07:49
  There were people staying next to me who would be like, woo.
• 1:07:51
  m
• 1:07:52
  I'd look at them and I'd be like, what the do you?
• 1:07:56
  You've got to be excited about something.
• 1:07:58
  the player part of team or whatever, but.
• 1:08:03
  Anyway, yeah, so looking back, it was great that I got let go because I wasn't happy there.
• 1:08:08
  I learned at that job that all organizations are inherently disorderly.
• 1:08:13
  Calling an organization is an aspirational idea as opposed to a realistic.
• 1:08:17
  description.
• 1:08:18
  Why don't uh
• 1:08:22
  They laid me off via Zoom and I think June of
• 1:08:25
  that 2020 and.
• 1:08:27
  Yeah, I was, I was panicking because, know, picked up and moved my entire life from New York to Columbus for this job that I'd had for about a little more than a year and a half.
• 1:08:36
  Here I was living in Columbus without a
• 1:08:39
  uh which is what I was doing in a lot of the time.
• 1:08:42
  So yeah, it really tried me and well, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
• 1:08:49
  And then uh
• 1:08:51
  know, was a few weeks later, like three weeks later, a York friend, texted me saying, I know a dude who's looking for somebody to work for the Lincoln Project.
• 1:09:02
  you interested?
• 1:09:04
  made a bunch of weird Trump remixes because I don't know, I have some sort of a sickness.
• 1:09:11
  He done that so I already had work to show.
• 1:09:13
  Yeah, next thing I knew I was working for the Lincoln project was supposed to be just three months that turned into.
• 1:09:20
  and a half years.
• 1:09:21
  And you kind of did their rapid response funny video.
• 1:09:26
  So people actually have probably seen a lot of your work with them.
• 1:09:29
  Ron is the one most people have probably seen.
• 1:09:31
  put it in the show notes as well.
• 1:09:33
  Yeah, I did a lot of the funny videos, also some, you know, dramatic ones too.
• 1:09:36
  It was a mix, especially in the few months I worked there.
• 1:09:39
  the 2020 election, funny videos and then some stuff.
• 1:09:47
  Rapid response, means we're responding to the events of the day.
• 1:09:51
  Very quick video.
• 1:09:53
  Yeah, the videos would get, it's the most high profile job I've ever had, I guess.
• 1:09:57
  Like, I remember the first video I did for, I finished it at like three and then I was driving up here to Cleveland and I stopped at a rest area just to look at Twitter or
• 1:10:07
  something.
• 1:10:08
  And it was like,
• 1:10:10
  Like, whoa, bro.
• 1:10:12
  And like seven million views, it's just hard to even comprehend.
• 1:10:18
  yeah, they would get on MSN, CNN, was part of that.
• 1:10:23
  at the time.
• 1:10:24
  Did you think that you were having a positive impact at the time?
• 1:10:29
  And did you
• 1:10:30
  For sure.
• 1:10:32
  mean, it was a big deal then people.
• 1:10:38
  For everywhere and it.
• 1:10:39
  felt like yeah, I was part of like that.
• 1:10:41
  I was helping right that these videos Seeing them and being like oh that Trump is a liar.
• 1:10:47
  Maybe we shouldn't vote for him Yeah, that was that was the exciting time Paper because I worked at the Lincoln project here.
• 1:10:54
  There was a 60 minutes profile I wasn't in that and then there was a New Yorker.
• 1:10:59
  I mean it was a big deal at the time
• 1:11:00
  So that was exciting and I did feel like at the time I was.
• 1:11:03
  not as jaded yet and then after the elections some
• 1:11:07
  You some things came to light, which I won't go into in detail.
• 1:11:11
  You can do the research that made me start to wonder, maybe, maybe this is a news.
• 1:11:17
  I don't know what the word is, straight and narrow or something as I thought or something.
• 1:11:22
  My...
• 1:11:22
  See the cracks or whatever.
• 1:11:27
  I was only supposed to work there for three months with I just kept getting checks.
• 1:11:30
  Oh, I just kept working there.
• 1:11:32
  then at one point in the like 2021, March or April, they cracked and had given like a.
• 1:11:40
  tremendous raise.
• 1:11:41
  And it was like a full time.
• 1:11:43
  It's like, oh, well, this is great.
• 1:11:46
  I can push my sir or.
• 1:11:49
  about the organization to the side because
• 1:11:51
  I'm going to be making a lot of money now.
• 1:11:54
  So yeah, and then that went on for another.
• 1:11:58
  There.
• 1:11:59
  So did your feeling about producing content?
• 1:12:03
  Because I was in a similar, somewhat similar boat in terms of like, I'm at a big media company.
• 1:12:11
  I think I can really make a difference.
• 1:12:12
  And then at a certain point, it occurred to me that I was basically just making videos for people that agreed with me.
• 1:12:18
  And I don't know if it really helped or just entrenched people in their way of thinking.
• 1:12:23
  What was your kind of journey with?
• 1:12:25
  Because I know you are somewhat disillusioned by.
• 1:12:27
  somewhat.
• 1:12:29
  Yeah, I mean it was a 40.
• 1:12:32
  Sure.
• 1:12:33
  Biden won were a bit tumultuous and tumultuous, tumultuous.
• 1:12:37
  Anyway, when Trump, I really did start to wonder if what we'd done was actually helpful.
• 1:12:47
  Because I feel like at first it felt like the public was doing the thing that the Republicans had done.
• 1:12:52
  They played dirty, we played
• 1:12:54
  cold make, you know.
• 1:12:56
  that's, but now, like, we create the most pool of water that exists in 2025.
• 1:13:09
  And I feel like, don't know how profoundly plausible is if the work and energy I'd put into
• 1:13:19
  sticking with this organization through all the.
• 1:13:22
  um media issues.
• 1:13:25
  they had was basically just like, eh no.
• 1:13:28
  Do they still exist?
• 1:13:30
  Yeah, there's still.
• 1:13:31
  kind of in touch with a few people doing there's response anymore.
• 1:13:35
  I'm not entirely sure what they're doing doing the podcast still
• 1:13:40
  All right, so yeah, talk about that.
• 1:13:42
  They put me on the podcast to be the editor and producer of the podcast.
• 1:13:46
  I think it was early.
• 1:13:48
  Yeah.
• 1:13:49
  I did it or made a podcast and their podcast was pretty big.
• 1:13:54
  so that was fun.
• 1:13:54
  I was excited to do a different job.
• 1:13:56
  I learned how to do it.
• 1:13:57
  all and a lot of relevant
• 1:14:00
  famous guests, know, we had one of
• 1:14:03
  course.
• 1:14:04
  had the guy from Sharp Bank.
• 1:14:07
  What's his name?
• 1:14:08
  Anyway.
• 1:14:08
  uh
• 1:14:10
  It was difficult because of certain personalities that I was working with.
• 1:14:14
  I knew a lot about podcasts.
• 1:14:16
  I liked about podcasts, so I was putting all my effort into this.
• 1:14:20
  was like leaning into it.
• 1:14:22
  Then I started meeting like resistance and I was just like, but it's getting more numbers now, it's doing better.
• 1:14:29
  it didn't seem to matter.
• 1:14:31
  there were strong personalities involved, I suppose is what you're
• 1:14:34
  would, that's what I would put it.
• 1:14:36
  But.
• 1:14:37
  I.
• 1:14:37
  um
• 1:14:40
  it gave me experience in doing podcasting and learning how it's
• 1:14:44
  and I won the award because of that too.
• 1:14:48
  But I did win it.
• 1:14:50
  that's nice.
• 1:14:50
  Yeah.
• 1:14:51
  I stumbled upon a video on-
• 1:14:53
  Lincoln projects YouTube of two of the leaders and my.
• 1:14:58
  who now produces the podcast, doing a video about how they made the video that won the Webby Award.
• 1:15:04
  But like none of them had made it once so but yeah, it off in January
• 1:15:15
  of this year.
• 1:15:17
  And now talk about bringing this piece of media that we're currently talking on to life.
• 1:15:22
  had this idea for this podcast.
• 1:15:24
  I always had this idea of like, you know, even we recorded some episodes years ago.
• 1:15:29
  And the idea was basically like, I want to get to know friends that I've met like later in life about their whole lives.
• 1:15:35
  You know, that was kind of my...
• 1:15:37
  It's turned into obviously something different than that, but that was kind of the initial gem of it.
• 1:15:41
  And then my nephew, Owen, came to visit me during his spring break.
• 1:15:47
  You know, he's a teenager, you know, not the most talkative kid.
• 1:15:50
  We have a good time, but...
• 1:15:51
  But one night I was like, do you want to record a podcast?
• 1:15:54
  Because I have all this gear.
• 1:15:56
  Once I got the headphones on him and the microphone in front of him, he just started opening up in a way that he never had before.
• 1:16:02
  And it was like, bing, like bulb sound.
• 1:16:06
  Then I realized, yeah, there's something.
• 1:16:08
  to
• 1:16:10
  podcast interviews that doesn't exist in real life talking.
• 1:16:14
  This experience of being forced to sit down and carry on a conversation and continue that conversation is an interesting one and a rewarding one in my mind because like how often
• 1:16:24
  do you sit down and have a long conversation with somebody that just has to keep going.
• 1:16:30
  And yeah, it's been great because I realized when I started doing it, I was like, I creative outlet quite badly because I haven't made any films for a long time.
• 1:16:38
  It's been crazy rewarding.
• 1:16:39
  And also on the other side of that, was a need for connection in part because of COVID and working.
• 1:16:44
  I mean, I was working alone in my house for
• 1:16:46
  four and a half years for the most part.
• 1:16:48
  And that, you know, fucks you up.
• 1:16:53
  And so it is a kind of a side benefit from starting the podcast.
• 1:16:56
  was like a way for me to like connect with people that I, some of them I knew well, some of them I didn't know well, and have, you know, interesting conversations about their
• 1:17:05
  lives.
• 1:17:06
  and about what's going on now all these kind of things.
• 1:17:09
  m
• 1:17:11
  a little side gravy prize or whatever gravy prize.
• 1:17:14
  And how has your experience been with the show so far?
• 1:17:17
  mean, you know, how has it evolved and what are you know?
• 1:17:21
  How do you see it continuing to evolve?
• 1:17:24
  I believe in this podcast.
• 1:17:25
  I think that it has potential.
• 1:17:28
  I think that the biggest struggle that I've had is in defining in terms that don't sound like every podcast because really ultimately most of the has been conversation, which is
• 1:17:40
  what 90 % of podcasts are, right?
• 1:17:43
  How do I distinguish myself?
• 1:17:45
  I guess that's the question.
• 1:17:46
  Yeah, just going with what feels
• 1:17:49
  right and that is cool.
• 1:17:51
  Let's just.
• 1:17:54
  Thanks.
• 1:17:55
  How do you navigate the like the psychology of being a creative person in a world where there's not like a national endowment for the arts that pays creatives to just sit around
• 1:18:11
  and be creative all day?
• 1:18:14
  well.
• 1:18:16
  You
• 1:18:18
  That was a rhetorical, somewhat rhetorical question.
• 1:18:21
  knew the answer to.
• 1:18:22
  Well, mean, now it's overwhelming and it's like, uh
• 1:18:30
  or something, don't know, somebody had this metaphor of like just a river of content floating by.
• 1:18:36
  It feels somewhat futile to even throw things in there, to continue the metaphor.
• 1:18:43
  You know, I realized in Adults, because Adults was, you know, a fun shoot, but also a difficult shoot for me.
• 1:18:49
  And it didn't do nearly as well as we expecting or hoping.
• 1:18:52
  would do.
• 1:18:53
  And I think I went into that project with a lot of expectation while it would do, because I really did think it was good and had a potential.
• 1:19:01
  But I realized in the aftermath, I needed to be doing this for the joy.
• 1:19:07
  of the
• 1:19:09
  whatever came out of it would be, should be.
• 1:19:14
  So in the sense of this podcast, I have been enjoying doing it.
• 1:19:18
  Like I don't want to make it seem like I'm doing the podcast to make myself feel better, but like just this creative process, this learning how to talk to people and get to know
• 1:19:27
  people and learning about people has really been rewarding in ways that I didn't necessarily think, didn't expect going into this, you know.
• 1:19:36
  And the amount of people who have reached out just out of the blue to just tell me that they get friends that I haven't talked to in a long time.
• 1:19:43
  telling me they listen to the whole thing on their road trip, whatever the road trip episode.
• 1:19:47
  You know, it's very touching and very like, um I think that she's gotten to know me better just because she listens to me talk about things that I never talk about with her.
• 1:19:56
  you know?
• 1:19:58
  So yeah, it's been a multi-tiered positive thing.
• 1:20:02
  for me and make a living from doing it.
• 1:20:08
  And I think I can.
• 1:20:09
  think there's potential here, as I said.
• 1:20:11
  just don't know.
• 1:20:13
  But then again, maybe I'm just deluding myself.
• 1:20:15
  I don't know, because there's so many podcasts out there and I'm like, what makes me special?
• 1:20:18
  I don't fucking know.
• 1:20:20
  Well, I think you have to delude yourself to get anywhere in this world anyway.
• 1:20:25
  Sure.
• 1:20:26
  So for people who are out there listening, who are, you know, aspiring either in the creative field and they have been faced with this kind of dark night of the soul, either
• 1:20:37
  being laid off or a project not going as well as they thought or whatever, what is your advice to them uh to kind of persevere if that is your advice?
• 1:20:50
  Give up, um
• 1:20:53
  I mean
• 1:20:53
  think with the creative industry, I'm gonna go on a tangent here, but it seems like the people with the least amount of talent are the ones that are the most persistent and good
• 1:21:02
  at getting themselves seen.
• 1:21:04
  And the people who do actually do good work are the ones that are erotic and not self-assured, and they don't get their work out there because they don't have confidence
• 1:21:15
  in it.
• 1:21:16
  To answer the question though, I would say, if you're really a creative, I would say, I guess you just gotta keep doing it.
• 1:21:23
  But again, like.
• 1:21:24
  I'm so cynical about the whole film, particularly industry at this point.
• 1:21:29
  don't know that I would advise people to go into film unless they have a trust fund of some sort.
• 1:21:36
  It's difficult, particularly when you know, you make something personal project that doesn't do as well as you.
• 1:21:41
  And again, that brings me back to like the finding the joy in the work itself.
• 1:21:45
  The money part is a whole nother part of the equation, which is the tricky part.
• 1:21:50
  You need to make, you need to live.
• 1:21:53
  Our country doesn't help.
• 1:21:54
  So, I don't know.
• 1:21:57
  Advice giving may not be your strong suit.
• 1:22:01
  Very discouraging.
• 1:22:04
  I mean, I wouldn't cut it out.
• 1:22:05
  It's honest, but it's uh just hearing that dark uh prognostication or advice makes me want to launch into my own advice, but this is not my podcast.
• 1:22:17
  I.
• 1:22:17
  think it's that dark to be honest.
• 1:22:19
  I don't think that finding joy in the work itself is dark.
• 1:22:22
  There's two separate things here.
• 1:22:23
  We're talking about career as a filmmaker, which I would say I wanted to be a film editor.
• 1:22:30
  That's a very, very difficult field to get into.
• 1:22:33
  Or maybe it isn't.
• 1:22:33
  Maybe I just didn't go down the right path.
• 1:22:35
  But what I ended up editing most of in New York was a lot of like branded content, promos, things like that.
• 1:22:42
  Because those are the things that, know, pay the bills.
• 1:22:46
  in
• 1:22:47
  can find joy in that, it's Realize that that might be the job that you end up getting is editing content that you don't really care about because you need a paycheck.
• 1:22:56
  Right.
• 1:22:57
  Yeah, look, mean, I think it's good to hear dark advice because if someone perseveres in spite of having heard um how horrible and dark it is, then they're probably meant to do
• 1:23:10
  it.
• 1:23:11
  for sure.
• 1:23:12
  But I'm a bad example.
• 1:23:13
  You're a much, you're in my mind a successful person who has navigated the industry quite well and seems to be doing quite well.
• 1:23:22
  Being able to choose projects and so forth, which I am always admiration.
• 1:23:28
  Well, you know, it's like one thing that I will reflect this having looked as I witnessed your career and your creative output, even though you don't relate to yourself as being
• 1:23:39
  successful, I would say that you are a very successful filmmaker and that's a filmmaker and creative professional as well, because you've had multiple high level, high visibility
• 1:23:52
  paying jobs.
• 1:23:53
  And you've also had like pretty much
• 1:23:57
  nearest to the pinnacle of creative success that one can get, is admission into Sundance.
• 1:24:04
  So I think one thing to take away, kids that are listening to this, is that you can literally get to the very, very top of the mountain and still, if you're not at the very,
• 1:24:15
  very peak, you can feel like you completely failed.
• 1:24:17
  So have some perspective, I'd say.
• 1:24:19
  Well that's hard,
• 1:24:20
  It's also the bar keeps going up in every in everything.
• 1:24:23
  I mean, I think that
• 1:24:24
  does it.
• 1:24:25
  Like there's never if you could have four shows on TV right now and you'd still be depressed.
• 1:24:29
  Yeah, or you can have $10 billion and you want $20 billion.
• 1:24:33
  Yeah, that's not, there's no, uh, there's no end
• 1:24:36
  But I think that's more of like trying to fill the hole in your soul with success or with something you need to actually find in yourself.
• 1:24:45
  But that's a soteric idea that I don't know.
• 1:24:49
  on that.
• 1:24:49
  I think that would be good advice.
• 1:24:51
  Yeah
• 1:24:52
  and also it's hard to see the label when you're inside the jar.
• 1:24:56
  Fill the soul hole.
• 1:24:57
  That's not, I think that's going to catch on.
• 1:24:59
  I think that was actually a porn movie.
• 1:25:02
  So yeah.
• 1:25:03
  Yeah, parts one through five.
• 1:25:05
  That was like a 70s.
• 1:25:06
  Yeah, that's really good.
• 1:25:10
  What brings you the most joy in this world at the present time?
• 1:25:14
  You'd think that I would have thought of an answer for this question because I ask it all the time.
• 1:25:20
  and
• 1:25:23
  It's a hard one, I would say, on the small level.
• 1:25:27
  Brings me joy.
• 1:25:29
  a bigger level.
• 1:25:32
  you know, hearing from people.
• 1:25:34
  I don't want to bring it back to the podcast, but really, you know, I hear from people, as I said, and how they love it.
• 1:25:43
  It them rethink how they're interacting with people and all these different things.
• 1:25:48
  it brings me joy just getting like, it's, you know, people giving me praise, but not just praise, it's praise that's combined with like a connection.
• 1:25:57
  You know, second just made a movie right and I'm like a movie about let's say dogs that go right just for example.
• 1:26:04
  I don't know why, but that's just what I thought of.
• 1:26:07
  people will be like, I love.
• 1:26:08
  dog outer space movie.
• 1:26:10
  And that's it.
• 1:26:12
  It's different, it feels meaningful because I am connecting with, the podcast has enabled me to reconnect with old friends, which it's all just magic, right?
• 1:26:21
  On a level that it's been able to bring old friends back to me and also this other level of, you know, my mom listening to it, all these things.
• 1:26:30
  And that has brought me other things.
• 1:26:34
  Delicious food, traveling.
• 1:26:36
  This year has been a year of, frankly, like,
• 1:26:39
  finding my joy.
• 1:26:41
  2025 has been, because I took this many retirement, has been honestly one of the best years of my life because I think at some point in the year I was just kind of like, I'm
• 1:26:52
  just going to do the things that I've wanted to do for a while and then I'll find a job later.
• 1:26:56
  So yeah, I I traveled a ton this year.
• 1:26:58
  I met a ton of people.
• 1:26:59
  I've done a lot of thinking about myself.
• 1:27:03
  And I think it's a combination of factors, but I've never felt so much myself.
• 1:27:09
  I guess would be a good way of putting it.
• 1:27:11
  I have in my whole life than I have like this year.
• 1:27:13
  I feel like I'm finally understanding myself and actually starting to accept myself and my flaws and all these kind of things.
• 1:27:20
  Yeah, that has brought me joy.
• 1:27:23
  Well, yeah, I think it's great to, you know, take the mini vacation, the mini retirements along the way, you know, and maybe not everyone has that luxury, but I think a lot more
• 1:27:34
  people have the luxury than think they do.
• 1:27:38
  I think a lot of people get stuck in this mindset that like, if you get off the merry-go-round, you're never going to be able to get back on.
• 1:27:46
  And it's just not the case.
• 1:27:49
  like life is too fucking short, man.
• 1:27:51
  Right.
• 1:27:51
  Yeah.
• 1:27:51
  met so many people on my road trip who were like, I wish I could do that.
• 1:27:54
  And some of them certainly couldn't, but some of them I'm thinking like, you could do this.
• 1:27:58
  You could.
• 1:27:59
  Yeah, it takes a lot of trust, but it's also like we're all just gonna be dead at the end of the day.
• 1:28:04
  Absolutely
• 1:28:05
  Only live once as the kid
• 1:28:08
  Yeah.
• 1:28:10
  So let's end this episode the way that you end all of your episodes, which is most of them.
• 1:28:18
  Yeah.
• 1:28:19
  OK.
• 1:28:19
  Well.
• 1:28:20
  I haven't done it in every single one, but I'd say 90%.
• 1:28:23
  Jef, I'd like to end this episode with the question that you almost always ask at the end of your interview episodes.
• 1:28:32
  And that is, what do you think happens when we die?
• 1:28:38
  I don't know, but I will say as a result of me asking that question in so many episodes, that has opened up my mind to the possibilities that never really can.
• 1:28:53
  And the interesting part is that everybody has a different answer to this question.
• 1:28:57
  Like there's no two people who are just like this.
• 1:29:00
  Everybody's got a different version of something.
• 1:29:03
  And it's all fascinating because, you know, to me, this is like,
• 1:29:07
  one of the most interesting questions we can ask ourselves as conscious.
• 1:29:12
  I would like to believe the older I get and the more and the more the scientists learn, the more I begin to believe that this is not all that there is.
• 1:29:23
  Perhaps it's because I'm getting a little closer to the uh end of the rainbow or whatever, you know, metaphor you'd like to use.
• 1:29:31
  Or perhaps it's just because I've
• 1:29:35
  done more work, done psychedelics more often and done these things that do show you a glimpse.
• 1:29:42
  of the
• 1:29:45
  that there's more going on than we are aware of which of course there is but I Guess metaphysical sense in the sense that consciousness may continue in the sense of you know,
• 1:29:56
  maybe we are reincarnated who knows But I am a logical person so it's difficult for me to fully embrace any of ideas because logic tells me that we
• 1:30:09
  die and we get even more forms.
• 1:30:13
  My heart tells me that that can't be it.
• 1:30:18
  I remember when I was the my father, was father a few ago.
• 1:30:22
  We were thinking, you know, they burned his ashes and they burned.
• 1:30:27
  That went so
• 1:30:28
  right
• 1:30:30
  Where did it go?
• 1:30:30
  Went into the sky, into smoke?
• 1:30:33
  It went somewhere because energy is a constant, right?
• 1:30:35
  So it just became part of this constant ball of energy.
• 1:30:40
  exists, right?
• 1:30:42
  I his energy is just going somewhere else.
• 1:30:46
  It was just his energy turning into another form.
• 1:30:49
  And maybe it had happened at the moment of death.
• 1:30:51
  Maybe it didn't happen when they burned him.
• 1:30:53
  Who knows?
• 1:30:55
  We think, you know?
• 1:30:56
  I mean, there's a lot of things that make me think.
• 1:30:58
  I mean, knowing you and your journey on this path has also opened my mind to a lot of other possibilities.
• 1:31:05
  And it's all very interesting.
• 1:31:06
  And it's much more interesting to think about things like that than it is just to think that we just died and get buried.
• 1:31:12
  you know, and then that's it, because that terrifies me.
• 1:31:14
  I used to lie awake at night.
• 1:31:16
  When I was younger, things were
• 1:31:19
  is all we've got this period and then we're just going.
• 1:31:22
  and it would like keep me up at night.
• 1:31:25
  That was young, this was when I was like a teenager, think, I it was crazy.
• 1:31:29
  You'd think I would do that more now than I did then, but no, I guess I'm more comfortable with the idea.
• 1:31:34
  to get it out of the way, Young.
• 1:31:35
  Yeah.
• 1:31:36
  And I think I'm just more comfortable with the idea because, you know, life is a long road.
• 1:31:41
  And I don't
• 1:31:43
  I think there'll be a certain point where I'll be like this whatever human form that I've been in this meat sack if you will I'm a little tired of let's see what's next you know I
• 1:31:55
  hope that that's where
• 1:31:56
  the end.
• 1:31:58
  Jef Taylor, filmmaker, podcast host, iconoclast, and my good friend.
• 1:32:04
  Thank you for being on the podcast.
• 1:32:07
  uh Christopher Casey, I love you dearly.
• 1:32:10
  I am very appreciative that you were willing to interview me for this.
• 1:32:16
  You know, I did some research and put some time into preparing for it because I...
• 1:32:20
  uh people that would do that.
• 1:32:24
  It was fun to revisit your Uber.
• 1:32:26
  Right, I this is what the podcast has always been about.
• 1:32:28
  It's like, now you know me better than you did before we recorded this.
• 1:32:33
  true.
• 1:32:37
  There you have it, there you have it.
• 1:32:38
  I think there's many places I can sign off.
• 1:32:42
  Yeah, end the episode, so there's...
• 1:32:44
  over and over and over.
• 1:32:45
  out.
• 1:32:46
  Maybe I'll just let this drag out through the thing.
• 1:32:49
  Just post episode banter.
• 1:32:54
  for maybe an hour.
• 1:33:02
  And that was me.
• 1:33:05
  But here I still am.
• 1:33:06
  Hmm.
• 1:33:09
  Thank you again to Chris for taking over the hosting duties.
• 1:33:12
  went above and beyond.
• 1:33:14
  And I truly appreciate it.
• 1:33:16
  This show is largely spreading through word of mouth.
• 1:33:19
  So if you yourself have a mouth, please tell someone else about it.
• 1:33:24
  Not about your mouth, but about the show.
• 1:33:26
  So it can continue to spread.
• 1:33:29
  And if you haven't already, please subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on because that tells the mighty algorithms that this show is one to spread.
• 1:33:37
  There are links to all the films we talk about in the episode in the show notes, or you can just go to onefjef.com and see everything, almost everything.
• 1:33:48
  And as I said, I will post some visual aids to supplement this episode on the Patreon page at patreon.com/onefjef.
• 1:33:56
  So if you'd like to see those, sign up.
• 1:34:00
  better than silver.
• 1:34:03
  I gratitude a lot on this show.
• 1:34:07
  Perhaps too much, although I'm not sure there's such a thing as too much gratitude, particularly if it's sincere.
• 1:34:14
  But I am sincerely grateful to you for giving me however much of your time and attention you've given over these past 25 episodes.
• 1:34:21
  It really means a lot to me.
• 1:34:23
  And I hope you'll continue to tune in for the next 25.
• 1:34:26
  I'll leave you with another quote from Roomie.
• 1:34:31
  that captures the essence of these last 25 episodes.
• 1:34:36
  End of my year of 2025 better than I ever could.
• 1:34:41
  Your heart knows the way.
• 1:34:44
  Run in that direction.
• 1:34:48
  I'll see you soon.
• 1:34:51
  Very good, Jefrey.