Latest / WoT Spoilers / The Nature of Pain & The Ways of Honor- The Gathering Storm chapters 2 & 3 - EP514

Transcript

The Nature of Pain & The Ways of Honor- The Gathering Storm chapters 2 & 3 - EP514 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. We're going
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: to start with talking about the season three trailer, because
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: that dropped a few days ago and we should react
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: to it as as content creator people.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah here's my reaction. Yeah, okay, that's it. That's all
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I get.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: My reaction was to watch it once straight through, to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: click through frame by frame, and then to go watch
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Lauren unraveling the patterns breakdown because although I don't normally
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: enjoy getting super into the like unpacking and unraveling and
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: spoiling everything in the show before it even happens, I
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: also like needed someone who I knew had like slowed
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: down and enhanced and done all that. And Lauren's video
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: was the right amount of detail and brevity to like
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: help me feel like I had that like very saturated
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: like ah ahead. I have basked in it, and I've
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: watched it a couple more times since, and I like it.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: I like it.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I'd like I've watched it a couple of times. My
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: basic impression is I think and hope that they're again
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: going to improve season three over season two. It looks
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: like they're sticking to Book four pretty goddamn closely for
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: maybe up to five even right with Moraine. You know,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: if we're ending with Moraine and Land, if you're going
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: through a doorway or you know, obviously they're not going
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: to do that, because why would we stick to the books.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: But if this is the end of Moraine at the
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: end of season three, which you know, makes kind of
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: sense to me in terms of like a three season arc,
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: and like the way they're shortening things and the way
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: you need to get through. You know, they combined two
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and three. I can see combining for four and five. Right,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: taking elements of both of those books and squishing them
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: together totally fine with me. You know. I see Aven Desra,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I see I see the waste, I see land Veer,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I see Forsaken. It looks like maybe talking
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: to some Grendel. You know, there's there's a lot going
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: on there, and I'm sure, I'm sure the Breakdown has
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: a lot more than that. But I don't want necessarily
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: what I find, And I was telling Rady this, I
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: don't necessarily want everything spoiled for me ahead of time.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I want to be surprised by some of those things
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: going into it. I don't feel the need to do
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: that breakdown, just because I feel like it steals it
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: takes some of the joy of the show and sort
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: of moves it ahead of the show instead of being
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: in the show in the moment when I'm watching it
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, it feels really good now, but
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: it feels less good when I sit down and watch
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: that first episode and I'm like, oh, yeah, I knew
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: that was coming.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I definitely I love trailers. I will like one
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: of the things I do to relax on YouTube is
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I just watch trailers, like for various shows and movies,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Like I just I love trailers. I love the art
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: of the trailer, and I have found that there is
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: such a thing as too much Wheel of Time, and
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: a couple of other shows they've done things like We're
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: just going to release entire scenes from the first episode,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: and it says, isn't just we have time. I've seen
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: other shows do this and I hate that, like there
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: is a degree of too much. And I say this
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: as a trailer loving person, but I adored this trailer.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: The thing I don't like is that they do seem
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: to be giving away the Moraine plot in the first trailer,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: and that feels very like I'm supposed to be able
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: to enjoy the trailer, you know, like not watching a
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: ten hour live stream is an obvious choice, but like,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be able to enjoy the trailer, like
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: and for them to just say Moraine is going to
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: die taking out land Fear in the very first trailer
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: to me feels very heavy handed and annoying. But I also,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: for a long time have maintained that if we get
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: the ale Fin and elfin which I desperately hope we do,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: we are getting one redstone doorway and not too like.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: That has long been my thoughts. Anything we have two
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: of in the in the books, we are getting one of.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: In the shore, we get it at all. Yeah, exactly
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: like we're gonna have one circus arc. If there's a
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: circus arc, if the circus shows up, we're gonna have
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: one circus arc.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I doubt that no one wants to see the
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: circus not gonna happen.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: That's factually untrue. There's lots of people who want to
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: see the service. But my point is it's just like
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: with the Forsaken we had thirteen, how we're down to eight.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: It looks like with the Clan chiefs we might be
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: or clans we might be going from twelve down to eight,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: like we're doing a reduction in number anything there's multiples
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: of we're pulling that number down, So like I could
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: see if they're blending. If we're really leaning onto the
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Shadow Rising, but we're eliminating one of the red Stone doorways,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: then that would be a thing to bring in from
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: book five. I just feel like you didn't need to
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: say that in the trailer if that's gonna happen, which
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: I now I don't think it's gonna happen because they
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: said it in the trailer, right. But I also feel
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: like it does look a lot better than season two.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're gonna maintain this improvement of quality
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: from season to season. I love the Oven or the
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Ieal plot in general, and also the Two Rivers plot,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: And like the shots we get of Parent, which like
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: a little bit disjointed for me feeling because I don't
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: feel like I we ever see Parent in plate armor
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: in the books, so seeing him fully tanked out in
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: plate armour was a little bit like WHOA. I thought
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Parent always went with ranger, but he does go in
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: as a tank, So like I don't know whatever. I'm
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: very excited to see the battle of the two rivers
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: and like parent going full warrior wolf, like super jazzed,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: and we're gonna see a Gwayne's accepted test, which obviously,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: like those are some of my favorite parts of the
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: books is seeing the accepted tests, so like, that's very exciting.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: There's this like wild drama happening. I will tell you
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: a little bit about the meta wild drama happening about
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: the one woman who almost looks like Elane but isn't
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: probably Elaine, the Blue Sky drama about Elaine versus Elaint.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: It's been raging, raging, so many people are so unsure
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: if this is the same actress or not, and I
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: adore that for us. I'm so happy for us that
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: we are so deeply invested in being wrong about this.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Half of us are wrong, like half of us are
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: just wrong. It's amazing, it's great. I also like the
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: shot with Elane and the core, Like I can't tell
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: if that's a crown or a coronet, because I'm like,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: we do have a coronet of the daughter Air, but
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that looks real elaborate for a coronet, but it doesn't
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: quite look like a cron. I just have so many
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: questions and I'm so excited to like get into it.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: The other thing with the text over is they say, hey,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: you know, I've seen a thousand times, a thousand you know,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: a million futures times.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: It's such a winter Dragon. Nod like, I love the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Winter Dragon.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: That's good. And then like we could see anything on
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: screen and it could just be a vision, right, Like
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: anything in the trailer could be from a vision that
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: does not happen and is just one of the possible
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: futures of marine out there. You could also get like
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: references to things actually happening in the books, right that, like, oh,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: they're not happening in this storyline, but in another storyline
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: like the books. We could get like scenes in those flashbacks.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't think they're gonna do any
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: of that, but you know, it's entirely possible.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: That they've got lots of opportunities for visions, so some
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: of them will probably happen.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: She could be wearing a crown in that, it could
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: be the you know, the crow crowd.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Of and or right totally it or or it could
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: be in a vision, yeah exactly, which is very exciting.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: We do get to see a bubble of evil, like
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: the three people coming out of the mirror's bubble of evil.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Like if you slow down that shot where he's exploding
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: fire out of himself, there are three silvery human shaped
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: bodies in the room with him. It's like we're getting
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: that bubble of evil. There's also a shot of a
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: very handsome shirtless man who I'm assuming is Gollad, because
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: we wouldn't we would. That wouldn't be Gowen, that wouldn't
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: be Goen. That's got to be a lot, has to
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: be a lot. I don't want it to be going.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I want that to be going.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: Keep your lost in check there, all right.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: I just like I don't want the beefcake to be gowing.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I just don't.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: You're like, damn it. I don't want to be attracted
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: to go On.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I want to be the hotter one.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean I'm excited for it to come out.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to watch.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: It's premiering March thirteenth.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I am so distracted by buying a house right now.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Personal stuff. Yeah, No, this is something I've been working
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: forward towards, working towards four years. That's difficult to say. Then, yeah,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: it's kind of cool that it happened.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really exciting.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So inspection was yesterday and everything seems good except for
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: one small bit of moisture intrusion. So we're going to
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: get that taken care of and then I'm moving forward.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so sorry if I'm a little distracted about
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: the trailer, I'm like, oh yeah, the trailer right, yeah, I'm.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Like, you want to do like a frame by frame
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: break like I liked it anyway, moving on, Yeah.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: It's a trailer, like anything else is a promise, right,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: and they are promising good things, but I have been
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: promised good things before and I Am not willing to
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: give it my heart until it comes out.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: This is the Nacker break season for me. Yeah, truly.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: The fact that they're covering my favorite book means that
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: this is this is as sharp as the stakes are
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: going to get for me, truly, Like everything after this
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: is just following through on what happens here, like right, yeah,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: book four is where it's at.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: There's book four. You may maybe in book five, like
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I could do another season that's basically do my as
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: wells and then basically shorten everything after that to another
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: season that's the last Battle. I could see a five
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: season arc, right, like, because I really don't think everything
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: from do My as well as to the Last Battle,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: that third of the story is. I mean, essentially they've
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: cut it already, right, there's just no point in having
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: it based on the characters in the plot lines they've
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: created because there's no intrigue. So you know, I I
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: think that they could really do a pretty good five
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: five season arc and dedicate a whole season to the
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Last Battle if they've got five seasons in them. Do
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: you think rosemend Pike will be back after season three
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: or do you think that Moraine is out for the
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: season and not coming back.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: That's a level of speculation that I don't care about.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: I am allergic as fuck to these. Well, they're gonna
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: do this many seasons, and the actors here and the
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: budgets there, Like, I am fucking allergic to that. The
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: show releases what it releases when it releases it, and
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: I am happy or I am not like that. I
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: all I care about is the release date. And like I,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: if I'm not invested in the story after this season,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: nothing that comes after could possibly capture me. Like, this
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: is it for me? This season? Is it? If they
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: if they nail this, then I will forgive so much
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: and if they fuck it up, I will never forgive right, Like,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: it's just this is the door, this is the split,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: this is the fork in the road, like we'll see
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: we will see comes spring how how this is going?
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: But I'm very excited and fun. Fact wat Com this
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: year has the costume designer as the special guest, nice
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Sharon Gillam. Gilliam, I'm not quite sure, but the costume
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: person who has been very interested in and forthright with
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: the fandom is going to be the special guest at
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: all time. So that's gonna be fun because again, just
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: like the last season improvement, the costumes look to be
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: delightfully scaling up again. For sure, I'm so excited to
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: see how exactly much of a ripoff of Doune the
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Iel are because there's only so many ways to do
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: badass desert warriors who are very water efficient and those
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: book Both those franchises have at this point spiraled around
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: each other multiple times, so like, how identical are they
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: going to be? We're gonna find out.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: If we go to the you know, carrying the snow scene, right,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: that was badass, and that was way more badass than
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: anything I've ever seen them do with the fremen in
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: my opinion, and way more medieval as well, with the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: swords and the spears, right, So to me that that
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: didn't that felt like a very good distinction. And if
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: they hung their entire ideal look at and action scenes
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: on that open cold opening, which was clearly the best
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: thing they did in that whole first season in my opinion, which,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: of course, I think the Iell part is the best
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: thing in the first season, right, So yeah, I think
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: they do a lot with that.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: It's exciting, it's.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Exciting, exciting. I'm going to watch the new season. I'm
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: going to do my best to just give it as
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: fair chance. And You're right, it is this this moment
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: where I'm like, okay, like this is your chance, right,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: You've you've proven that you can do a lot, right,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: and you just need to fix this one thing, which
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: is your writing, right, Like that's all they need to fix,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: just this one little tytl And if you could do that,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: you could make a great fucking show. And the thing is,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: it's not even fit you're writing, it's just just copy
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Robert Jordan.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: It's right there on the page.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: You can do it.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: So true. And for the podcast, I don't want to
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: react to it until we're done watching it and.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, we processed our feelings.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: And then we can decide how we want to proceed
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: with coverage of it. We will be spoilers, people, We
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: will be waiting until it is spoiled. Then we will
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: figure out our game plan. I just I don't want
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: to figure out a game plan beyond that's the date
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: at which we figure it out.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, come on, come on, listen. You know that our
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: brand is first out of the door on everything. We
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: were the first people to cover Wheel of Time, the first.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Even finish the second point.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know you were talking about books that
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: came out with twenty years ago. For the most part,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: we're catching up now, but not that much. I think
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: now we're like ten years behind, right, because like memory
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: passing up?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah people, Oh yeah, no, Memory of Light came out.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Fuck, that was like ten years ago, wasn't it.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. Yeah, rude, Yeah, that's.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: An unacceptable number. I would like to speak with the manager.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we were the first person to do the Spoilers
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: podcast about it and the first person to really go deep.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I think that the chapter by chapter read through.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Yes we are this is the first dedicated hardcore Wheel
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: of Time only podcast that that is genuinely this podcast
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: is like claim to fame is like first to go
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: this hard.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I always have to acknowledge.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: There was the the Dragon Mount had their podcast, and
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: uh podcast existed as a thing.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: They did not go as hard as this podcast goes now,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: nor did they have anywhere near the staying power. It's
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: like there's a couple of little crackle snap pops on
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: the horizon and then one takes off and actually goes
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: to the moon. You know, like this is this is
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: what that is? Yes, speaking of the moon, Have you
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: watched For All Mankind?
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Why do I want to say yes, but I can't
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: remember it.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: It's on Apple TV NOE. Then okay, it's I got
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Apple because I wanted to watch Silo. But then I
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: was like, I should try to get my money's worth.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: And I've heard good things about For All Mankind and
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: it's good. It's very good. It's very good. Like it's
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: it's it's got a lot of the same things that
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I liked about the Expanse. You know, ensemble cast actually
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: interesting plots involving like space and stuff. But instead it's
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: an alternate American history starting with the basic premise is
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the Russians beat us to the moon or beat us
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: to space, and then they just keep beating us, and
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: so the space race just continues to be America playing catchup.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: And it's just an alternate timeline. But it has a
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: lot of the same strengths as the Expanse in terms
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: of like why I like it. So if you have
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Apple or get Apple at any point for all mankind,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: is a very worthwhile show.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: I've said this before and I need to say it again.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: There are so many Apple TV shows that have been
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: recommended to me that I haven't watched because I do
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: not have Apple Tea, haven't subscribed Apple TV, and so
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: what I generally do is only try and subscribe to
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: one service at a time. Right, so I'm only subscribed
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: to Netflix at this current point in time. However, once
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: we get through some certain certain shows Arcade, I may
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: have to switch. Yeah, I've been watching Arcane. Really love Arcane.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Never really loves Arcane. It's kind of an amazing show.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I hear you on the switching services because you don't
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: want to pay for all of them. No, I yeah,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I'm on Apple specifically for Silo. So it's like as
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: long as I as long as Silo's coming out, I
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: will have Apple and I will try to make sure
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I watch other stuff. But once Silo's done, I'm going
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: to like conserve my money. And because Silo's so good,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: it's so good, it's so creepy and weird and unsettling,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: and it's such a good adaptation.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: And I also have a bunch of you know, I'm
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: sharing accounts on a bunch of the other services, but
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not paying for them. But I do not have
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: a shared Apple account with anybody. So that's the other
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: reason why i've you know, I think I have a
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: shared Disney account. I have a shared gosh Amazon Prime account.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: I have a couple other shared accounts.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah my mom, Yeah, I did have a shared Prime account,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: and then my mom, who was paying for it, decided
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: in a fit of peak that she wasn't giving any
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: more money to Bezos, So fair enough react the shared
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Prime between our accounts when the time comes for the show.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: But I haven't had Netflix and forever like forever forever,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: because I was just like, I have too many services
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: and Netflix is the one that seems the least ethical
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: of all of the ones I have, so I haven't
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: had them in a long time.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I canceled them for a while, and then it was
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: we wanted to watch some shows, so we got back
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: into it. There is construction going on next door, so
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: you know, apologize if there's some background noise, you may
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: hear that. I'm sure editing lady able to who best
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: to get rid of it, but it's sometimes it's just
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: not feasible when you're talking.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Life happens. I have a client who I just thought
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: she had figured out how to do separate zoom recordings,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Like we talked through it and she clicks the button
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: while we were on screen share. But the latest few
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: episodes she sent me, you're still all one audio and
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: it's just like the crosstalk is killing me. It's literally
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: killing me.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Again hoping to get the girls to restart. This bitch
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: is always late. The microphone's over there, but you know,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: you know how it is. Things have been busy for
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: me lately, guys. It's been Jesus. The last three months
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: have been absolutely a rollercoaster ride in terms of big
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: life events. Yeah, marriage, death, buying a house.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Moving, Life is lifing hard.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Life is lifing really hard for me, guys, really fucking hard.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: So sorry for our release schedule has been a little intermittent.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: It hasn't been you.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: No, no, We've been pretty good.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, no, no, I've I've managed us. It just went
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: off for September. Okay, Well, that that was a plan,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: and I released Tanja compilations nice during that time.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: I just, you know, thanks to already for covering my ass.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: You'd let me know there was gonna be a disaster
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: of a scheduling hole. And then we had a season break,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: which gave us.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Plenty of Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that is true.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: It's been fine coming out of the holiday season into January.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: When you're dealing with coming back from your honeymoon and moving,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: that's what I'm not prepared for. I'm not prepared for that.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: We're gonna have to get creative about that, right, And
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: by creative, I made back episodes probably.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I mean we could always sit and record a couple
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: of episodes like pull an early day and record two
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: or three episodes in one day. And just like knock
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: it out. Like I mean, they probably wouldn't be the
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: best episodes, but they're the best chapters.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: If we if we see a stretch of going pov
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: is coming up in the next couple of weeks, maybe
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: we could, uh we just do all the Golin chapters
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: out of order, just kill and this is a common
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: chapter anyway, Yes, we are doing this out of order,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: deal with it. I mean, that's that's an interesting idea
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: we could try that. We should probably try getting into
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: this book though.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I have ideas. All I'm saying so excuse me,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: it's I know, I'm keeping us away from the.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Book slightly slightly. Religion is yelling at us to start
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: the damp book.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Sorry, if we started live folks, sometimes I get a
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: little distracted. To get my brain back on draw, would
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: you help me out with a read in a radio?
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: All right, So today we are going to be covering
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: chapters two and three, because you'll see why we're doing
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: two chapter and chapter one, which is technically chapter two.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Chapter one for today, which is chapter two in the book.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Is the first chapter that we're doing today, which is
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: chapter two in the book. Is how I would phrase that.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's the first chapter for today. Yes, chapter two
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: The nature of pain, and our symbol is the flame
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: of Tarvalin. Aguin stood up straight backside of flame, with
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: the now familiar agony of a solid beating beneath the
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: hands of the Mistress of Novices. She felt like a
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: rug that had just been pounded free of its dust.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Despite that, she calmly straightened her white skirts, then turned
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: to the room's mirror and calmly dabbed the tears from
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: the corners of her eyes, only one tear in each eye.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: This time. She smiled to her reflection, and her twin
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: cels nodded to one another in satisfaction. And that's all
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I need to read of the weird beating scene.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'm truing because I expect you read more.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Hold on, I have thought thoughts I can go into
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: while you work on that. Basically, just this is us
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: getting into the really Sandersonian thing where we just keep
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: saying the same thing over and over and over and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: over and over again. And this paragraph basically sums up
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: most of her thoughts for the next several pages that
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: she is coming to a place where the pain doesn't
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: really matter. And she's not crying about it. And that's
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: a really profound internal shift and it's really important in
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: her arc. Tada done. That's most of the chapter.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: What's crazy to me is this is her moment on
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the mountain, This is her veins of gold, right, Like,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: this is the moment when she goes, oh, being strong
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: isn't about being hard, and for her it's a Tuesday.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: For Rand is this incredible moment that changes his life
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: and changes the world and makes everything you know, butterflies
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: fly and plants gloom and the sunshine shine, and for
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: GWayne it makes her go, oh, yeah, that sucks.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: And like, also, can we just talk about the weird, weird,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: weird layers of bullshit that have Rand having veins of
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: gold on a mountaintop as a profound shift and a
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: GWayne achieving enlightenment through being spanked.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, there is something a little poetic about Robert
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Jordan's book being like a key moment coming from spanking. No, no,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: you cannot tell me that spanking has not been an
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: integral part of this book from the very beginning.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I just don't think that the young woman character who's
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: been a love interest for all of us for all
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: this time, being spanked by an older woman should be
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: where power and confidence and maturity and stoicism comes from regularly,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Not when Jesus man over here gets to have multiple
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: relationships with multiple women, and a relationship with his father,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and multiple relationships with different mentors and have all of
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: that stuck into his literal highest point on Earth, transcending
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: into the goddamn dream. His profoundness is so profound. I
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: just don't think that this weird in a dark room
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: being physically assaulted by an older woman is comparable. I
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: just think that's very weird.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, at least it doesn't happen in both of
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: these chapters, that the main characters assaulted by older women
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: until they have Oh wait, at least it doesn't happen.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: It's weird that it. Yeah, it happens twice.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: It happens twice, and we spend so many paragraphs painstakingly
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: patting ourselves on the back for working up to this.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I just like so okay on Blue Sky the other
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: day with our account, I asked, what do you want
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: from us? Just screaming into the void, what do you
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: want from me?
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: And one of those podcasts exactly exactly. Yeah, it was
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: the podcast Screaming into the Void specifically, And one of
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: the responses I got was commentary on the narrative shift
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: between authors and the style, the literary style between authors.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: So here you go. I hope that you from Blue
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Sky are listening and feeling affirmed in this, because I
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: just I would have ranted about this even under Robert
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Jordan's pen. I know Jordan would have written something like this,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: and I would have been mad about it. But there's
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: really a Sandersonian extra neist to it.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: And here's where I'll say the difference is Jordan may
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: have written written something exactly like this, with the repetition,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the beatings. Everything here is like perfect Jordan to a t,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: except every other paragraph would have been some sort of
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: internal or some sort of parallel plot that was going
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: on that both commented on. The external plot was extremely
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: clever and showed us something about an unreliable narrator all
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: at the same time while also giving us clues about
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: other plots. Here. This is just externally what's happening. There's
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: no you know, and and there's no other there's no
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: internal monologue that you know, It's no hey, nive having
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: a conversation while also healing logain.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Uh huh.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: It's you know, there's none of the cleverness of a GWayne,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: you know, rocking on her chair and having it one
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: internal monologue while also dealing with the sitters and everybody
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: else around her. Like there's just there's a there's a
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: level of layerness that is like, man, we went from
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: an onion to an apple, right, which is like the
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: onion's got layers, and the more you cook, the sweeter
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: it caught, more complex it gets. And but we got
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: the shiny apple, which is real sweet, and you take
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: a nice bite and you know, you got that surface
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: red and it's just the same all the way down,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: and there's just nothing else. There's no layer to it.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: It's just nice crispy, shiny red apple that looks really
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: good and it's really tasty the first time you eat it,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: but it just doesn't have the complexity of a tasty
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: sauteed onion.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Brandon just recently discovered the magic of making onion jam.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: So this analogy is really hitting me in the taste
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: punds right now. That is a very good analogy, you.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Know, which is not to say I don't love apples, right,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I love this book. I love these books. These are
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: three very good books that I am so happy exists
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: and that he did, But especially here in the beginning,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: which is just I mean, let's be honest, the beginning
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: of all of Robert Jordan's books have been recap city.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: And I have giant blue chunks of these chapters highlighted
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: that for me is just like, this is a bunch
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: of recap. This is summarizing where the characters are and
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: what they're doing, which is totally difficult, right, And so
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: it's very hard for me to point out like any
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: individual thing where I'm like, oh, Jordan wouldn't have this,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: because pretty much everything in here Jordan would have done.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: But the style is very different.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: The style is very different, and the way it's just
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: not woven together with another narrative in a way that
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: lets them play off of each other, right, Like, one
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: thing by itself, isn't that interesting? Two things? You have
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: all these interactions, three three plot lines, you have, you know,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: hundreds of possible interactions between these storylines and interesting things
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: that are going on, and like, we're getting that one.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: And I think he does build up the two, but
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe not. He's built very much building up
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: to that complexity at this point in the series.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: You're making me think of a cool gift I saw
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: recently of a visualization of Pie being irrational and it's
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: like a line or going around and it just visually
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: shows like this very chaotic, like it's a spiral, yes,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: but like it's all over the place. And yeah, you're
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: making me think of that. Like Robert Jordan, he wasn't
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: even three. He was Pie. He was working with pie
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: plot and it was chaotic and messy and didn't make
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: sense sometimes. And yeah, Sanderson's walking in here with like
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: the Pythagorean theorem being like everything is extremely into we
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: are in integers. Yeah, but there is there are no
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: decimal points anywhere in any of this. We are a
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: B and C. That is it. That's all that is happening.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right, so we'll talk about trigonometree versus.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: No, fine, fine white Aja have that.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, you know, okay, I'm just I'm just
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: don't want the math people coming for me out there,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: right like, okay.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Fine, defend the podcast, honor, go ahead, No.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Moving on, take the analogy with the grain of salt
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: and don't go for me, please, I.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Hate Okay, fine, he's coming in here with a with
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: a with a right triangle. There you go, cool, there
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: you go. Look, I'm not the math person here.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Call it a golden triangle and move on. Golden triangles
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: have whole numbers.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, cool, we got there, We got there.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Seth managed to defend the podcast on her. We got
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: pie versus a golden triangle. That's my argument. I'm sticking
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: with it.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm dying here. I'm dying here.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: To everyone who's smart.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: These are the these are the moments when again, I
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: like these scenes externally. They're fun, right. I love Sylviana
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: looking out a lot of the strap and going like
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: is it broken? What the hell that is? Like? It's
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: a very funny moment, being like when this person gets
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: up and like I've been beating the ship out of
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: you and you go up and go anyway, cool? Thanks,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: This's a certain amount of uh, I'm not sure what's
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: going on here? Am I broken? Is she broken? I?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I don't get it? And it is it is her
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: her growth, she's embracing the ideal way. She doesn't quite
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: have that realization yet that's white lap yet. But that's
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the whole arc of this.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Chapter, right, And like when she does get to that,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: I do find it it's hard to believe the way
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing rand being like I
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: just make the pain go to someone else. It's fine, sure,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Like I have a hard time empathizing with it. But
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: also I have like multiple massive tattoos, so like I
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: do get the whole This hurts less than the pain
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: of not doing it. Like, I really want this tattoo,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna sit here and let this person literally
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: torture me and be chill about it and like have
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: conversations sometimes even because I want this more than I
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: want to not feel pain. I do feel like being
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: tattooed is different than being beaten with a leather strap.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: But you know, I can attempt to connect those dots.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, like, literally, my Wheel of Time tattoo is
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: one of the most painful experiences I've ever gone through.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah it was.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: It's some bad calls on that day, so you know,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: I literally did that four wheel of time specifically.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Right, There's something about bearing pain in the wheel of time, right,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: There's something like for me, it's about sports, right, because
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I'd always read about these these injuries in the battle
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: where you get cut you don't even realize it, and
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I'm like, that's ridiculous. So I get cut myself my
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: finger and it's just like cut and it hurts like fuck.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: But then you go when you play sports and like
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: maybe you're playing soccer and you get kicked with a
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: cleat and it, you know, slices your leg open and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: you don't realize until you pull your sock down. Right,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: So that kind of stuff does, like adrenaline in a contest,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: like our bodies really do kind of shut down the
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: pain response. So there's a lot of stuff like that
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: where I can make those connections and believe there is
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: some way to sort of overcome pain with mind. But
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: you know, that's also just part of Jordan's mythos around
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: ignoring the heat and the cold, ignoring the pain, being
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: in this zen, void and flame moment where you can
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: embrace the source, embrace the power, and be out side
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: of your body in this way, separate from your body.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: You know, it's outside looking in thing that that Rand
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: always talks about when he's in the void where it's somebody.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Things are happening to someone else's body even though you
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: even though the power, you can sense it more acutely.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, that just sounds like autistic contradictions. Sylviana gets
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: some fun just character moments here, just literally in the background,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: looking like she actually does develop as a character, just
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: in what we see her doing nonverbally and then and
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: then literally verbally. She like tries to reason with Agwayne
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: in a way that.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: She yeah, she gets trapped into it.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't this isn't working. Maybe I need to
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: like try something else, and then away and like immediately
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: owns the conversation Sylvia, I was like, fuck, that didn't
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: work either, And.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: The growth is like, hey, this person's getting beaten so
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: often she needs to get her food or else the
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: healing is not going to work. And then like every
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: like basically looking after her basic health when nobody else is.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: It's a little bar.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, there's there's that.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, because it's her job, right, it's her job
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: to discipline the novices, not to beat them to death,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: right if the discipline they need requires extra calories, And
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: that's just part of the job description. It's not even
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: a bar. It's just part of the job, like Agwayine
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: frames it is a kindness, but I'm like, it's just
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: at the job description, that's all it is.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: And I definitely want to separate like acute pain and
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: pain of beating and stuff like that to chronic pain.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Like chronic pain is a whole different beast that is
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways much much worse than a
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: cute pain almost always.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Like Agwain is in a very strange place
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: of being given an acute pain at a chronic pace
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: right right, Like she's she's people can approach her from
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: both sides.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: She gets healing all multiple times a day, and that
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: is a complete relief from that pain for a period of.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Time, But she also talks about the now familiar agony
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: whenever she sits down, So like, I'm confused. The healing
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: is enough to keep her walking, but like she talks
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: about being in pain all the time, and later she
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: talks about being surprised she's not in pain constantly after
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: the tower gets retaken, so maybe she gets healed like
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: right before, I'm confused.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Honestly, I mean, she's beaten three times a day, right,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: and so the healing I don't want the healing. I
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: think it is right before she gets beaten. Right, she's
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: supposed to feel the pain as long as possible and
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: then the healer so that she can be beaten.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: But also being yeah, I don't know. I just feel
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: like this is deeply impractical on a lot of levels.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Her her body is going to make her pay for it,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: like in her fifties or whatever. You know. Like there's
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: a great line in not in the Alana books, but
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: in the Kell Dree books later on in the same universe,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: where Alana says something about it doesn't matter how many
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: times you get magically healed, your body keeps track and
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: it will pay you back, like in your forties or
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: fifties or whenever she's talking. She's just like she's like
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: this epic magic heroine and she's like, yeah, no, all
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: the times that I had magic healed my bones, I
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: still feel it. So one assumes that this is true
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: across every magical universe.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Which I feel like is the case. Like if you
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: break a bone, you can we do heal from They
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: can be set. Modern medicine can put it together, but
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: you know, I can tell you from experience, like broken
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: bones hurt for years and years afterwards they ache right,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: not all the time, but sometimes, you know, when the
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: weather's changing or whatever. I don't know if that's a
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: myth or not.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: No, as far as I know, it's very real.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So you know, my jaw heartaches when the storm's
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: rolling in, right, And I can see if you have
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: multiple bones, like you can wake up with just like
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: aching pain throughout your entire body, and you know, many many, many,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: multiple days if you have multiple bones, if you have
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: multiple broken bones that have.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Been healed as a monobone person myself.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Bone on bone, bone, Okay that no, we're not going there.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all to say, I think all of this being
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: severely beaten and then healed is probably not doing Agwayne's
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: physical health any favors. Even though it's magic and it's perfect,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I don't buy that it's perfect. There are small errors
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: creeping in on her physical health. My personal head canon.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: One could argue that the healing is what helps people
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: in the Age of Legends supposedly live to be much older.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: They be like one hundred and fifty two hundred what
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: just average person, And I'm kind of assuming that's because
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: of the prevalance of just normal healing.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they don't have achy bones.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm just imagining if you know something some
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: of aging has to do with, you know, you can
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: heal that is some some Yeah, something is dying, something
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: is degrading. Healing could keep it going longer, right, Yeah.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: I just don't think you're supposed to get healed from
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: being beaten three times a day for a week straight.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I just don't think that your body's meant for that
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: sort of newing.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: No, it can't be good.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: For her, No, exactly, legend mitochondrial fatigue. There you go.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: There's a sciencey way of saying it.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: But it's amazing what you can recover from in your twenties.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: You'll pay for it later, but the things you can
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: recover from in your late teens early twenties is.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Programatically exactly in her fifties, she would be paying for
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: this like neaeding, weaves and teas.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: You know, Spoiler's not going to be a problem.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: That's the real reason why she went out. It wasn't gawen,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: it was the fearful threatis Igwayne leaves the mistress of
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Novice's study and goes and talks with her handlers on
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: before she heads off to Elida's dinner thing. She sort
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: of talks with them in the hallway for a little bit.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Well, she's delaying because she's waiting for Alviren to show
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: up because she's kind of keeping tabs on Alvirn and
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: whether or not she's being beaten.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Right, And she has just enough time to hang out
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: and then go to Alida. She doesn't have time to
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: do anything else. So she's like, yeah, I'm going to
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: linger here for a minute. See if al Viarren shows up.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: And she talks to the Reds and she asks them,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: and remember one of them is not a Red. One
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: of them is a Black Asha sister. So she's talking
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: to the two of them as if they're red, right, Yeah,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: She's talking to the two of them thinking they're both Reds,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: saying are you pleased with this? This is your legacy?
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Because of Alida coming from the Red and the other one,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: the one who's actually a Red, as well as Sylviana
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: who's eavesdropping, this hits them both. They've both very much
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: been in the tunnel vision fog of following where the
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Black Aja leadership has been taking them. And now Agwayne
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: is saying this is your legacy and suddenly it's like
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: it's like the Rant and the Barbie movie, right, like
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: it breaks the spell and they're like, wait a second,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: we've been thinking about this all wrong, which really is
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Agwayen's arc in this chapter too. I mean at the
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: end she's like, in the course we're going to the dinner,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: She's like, I've been thinking about this wrong. Everyone's been
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: thinking about this conflict wrong. That's part of the damn
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: problem is everyone who's working on the right side is
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: too lost in the weeds and not seeing the bigger picture,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: which is that Alida has lost control of being a
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: reasonable person and the Reds are going along with it.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: And that's a problem. Like the entire institution needs to reaccess,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: not just the.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Reds, but everybody in the White Tower is going along
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: with it, right, they're accepting it. That's what the one
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: the lesson she learned from the woman who accepted being
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: and accepted Shamaron, right, Like, what did she learn from that?
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: And I'm not going to do the same thing, which
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: is I'm not going to accept what she's told me
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: to do. And that's the problem with everybody is they've
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: all accepted this craziness coming from Elida and just being like, oh, yeah,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: this is the new normal. This is leadership. I guess
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: we're just going to let that happen and not change leadership,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: which the cowards never do, by the way.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Right, And like, the people who should be her biggest
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: critics who are her biggest enablers are the ones who
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: should be her biggest critics, right right, The people who
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: are next to her in the decision making room, the
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: people who are next to her in the process of
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: deciding to go left or right in a given moment.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Those are the people that, like also need to be
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: held to account for not putting the brakes on this,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: because one person cannot drive a whole institution into the
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: ditch by themselves.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Emul Katherine is like, fuck, she caught us, Hey hey, hey, hey, no, no,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: we don't we don't, we don't know. We're not going
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: to say that so very much. So that's why she
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: gets punished again. But the other person who hears it,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: who I think it matters a lot, is Sylviana exactly Like,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: that's because the door is still opened. So Sylviana listens
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: to that whole thing, and that's the person who she's
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: really ends up talking to through this whole argument, right A.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Gwaine thinks, why am I wasting my breath on this?
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: And then the door clicks behind her. It's like, because
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: you never know who might be eavesdropping, that's why you're
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: quote unquote wasting your breath. It's not a waste. You
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: never know who's listening.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Also, her arguments great recap fodder. Here's all the things
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: light is done. Are you really going to stand for that?
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: It's like very light handed, very subtle, very easy to
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: de like, oh no, that was just a good conversation
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: way recap.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: And then there's this sort of change in strategy where
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: she's like, you know, it's I don't really need to
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: win the war against Alida. Alida is going to undermine herself.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: I really just need to hold the White Tower together.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And she talks about how she's winning and
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: the victory is tasting less and less sweet m h.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Winning is not actually what I want. I want the
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: tower hole again. Winning against Alida means tearing the tower
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: down farther, Like, what I actually need to do is
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: rebuild the tower as Alida is tearing herself down, Like
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: that's actually the challenge. It's harder, but that's how you
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: know it's right.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: And that's why she needed to be on the inside, right,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: because she built up the Rebel Tower, the rebel side
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: to be you know this strong, you know hierarchy, you know,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: all all the politics that we did, which was a
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: lot of politics right out in the Rebels Tower was
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: to get you know, these women to support what was
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: to them otherwise an innocent young girl, right, and to
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: do so in a way that made the tower strong
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: and supportive, was of a strong leader and united towards
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: a common goal. And now she has to do it
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: from inside, and you know, the Sean Chan end up
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: helping her quite a bit on that, as.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: She foreshadows very clearly in this chapter. She's like, how
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: would a light of feel if the if the Shawn
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Chance slapped an i it on onto her idiot neck,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, ooh ooh, don't piss the dreamer off.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: She'll foretell your future, which is always bad, and they
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: never want to know your future. No, we get a timestamp.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: She's been nine days back in the tower since the kidnapping.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: So that's I mean the whole last book, right, Yeah,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: it was from her getting kidnapped to now so nine
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: days was the span. All nine days, we get the
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Dark One. The pattern, right, pretty much every chapter has
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: something where the pattern's breaking. Halls are rearranging dead people walking.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: In this case, we're getting, you know, a painting that
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: changes very dramatically, very Halloween right, like skulls and mask
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: of blood and dead bodies hanging from the eves. And
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, who got a hold of a vintage
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: painting and painted it up for Halloween? Is what it looks? Right?
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. The Dark One is just like having a craft.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: All Hallows Eve before the Armageddon, I mean Tarman Giden.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then we get to one of the most
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: like life affecting paragraphs in the whole series for me. Yeah,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: the spot yeph going turned and stalked away from the
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: misplaced muror. She couldn't focus on those problems right now.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: You scrubbed a floor clean by first picking a single
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: spot and getting to work. She'd picked her spot.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: This.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: I have been clinging to this fucking concept like a
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: lifeline ever since I first read it, Like I can't
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: fix everything. I gotta do what I'm doing.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: So this is why, like I love Sanderson because he
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: has these just incredible nuggets of wisdom and great quotes
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: sprinkled throughout his books, like they are straightforward, but they're good.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: They're good.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: They're good, you know, and you know as there's not
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of subtlety. He's telling you what he's telling you,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: but there's some real cleverness in there.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Subtlety is not the only way to make good, impactful points.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Subtlety is one of the tools and the toolkit, and
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Sanderson lacks it, but he makes up for that lack
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: with other talents that are right next to it in
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: that same toolkit.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: He just does not have a subtle bone in his body,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: that's all.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I recite this line every time I'm doing dishes
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: because I get so overwhelmed with the pile of dishes
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, Nope, just clean this one plate. This
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: plate just needs to get clean. That's all you're cleaning
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: right now is one plate, and then you're doing the
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: next plate, and then you're doing the next plate, and
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: then the bowls, and then the pots, and then the
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: silverware and then and then all of a sudden, there's
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: like three things left. And I'm like, Okay, well, I
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: don't want to do any of those things, but it's
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: the last three things, so I might as well get
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: them done.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's it's a great way to cut
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: through the overwhelm. It really is. And I mean, Agwayne
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: is like I on the one hand, I want to
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: criticize her because I'm like, you should be doing something else,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: you know, like fighting back more aggressively. But then it's
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: like what she ultimately manages to pull off is the
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: effect of the long game. We can't all operate at
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: the same speed, like change does not. Like think of
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: a record player, right, every spot on that record is
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: not moving at the same speed, but they're all working
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: in lockstep. Right, Like depending on where you are on
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: the disc, you're moving through space faster.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: They're all moving at the same angular rotation.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Look, they're covering different distances. Yes, they're covering different distances
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: in the same amount.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Of time in a ratio based on the radius away
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: from the center.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. And that's my point is that, like a movement
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: is not made up of people all moving at exactly
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: the same speed, doing exactly the same thing in exactly
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: the same place. Some people are going to be like
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: way closer to the center. Some doing me way farther
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: at the edge, but an ideal world where the record
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: is actually playing like a record place you're all working
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: together in the same direction. And Agwaine is like in
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: the heart of the tower, fighting for control over the
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: literal center of the spindle, right, Like that's literally how
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: they describe their White Tower is the wheel of time
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: rotates around, like the world is rotating around. This is
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: the spindle.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: And that's why they're multiple forsake and dedicated to breaking
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: it right, but broken and corrupted separately.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Right, So that's why it's like no Igwaine doing the
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: work necessary to work her way into the esteem of
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: all these women in this power structure so that she
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: can ultimately smoothly take over control when Elida gets kidnapped,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Like it takes scrubbing the floors for nine days, it
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: just does. She just has to stay committed to her course.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: And so sometimes when I feel really stuck in bullshit,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: stupid stuff that doesn't feel exciting now but is part
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: of the larger picture, It's like, this is the floor
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: scrubbing part. This is just the floor scrubbing part of
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: the story arc. We will get to taking over the
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: world later. That comes later. We gotta scrub the floor now.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: And again this is there's a lot of Sanderson talking
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: to us. I feel like sometimes he's saying, listen, I
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: know you want to get to the dark One and
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: the pattern and the last battle, but right now, I've
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: got to clean up some of these plot lines over here,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: because there's just a lot of loose plot lines that
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: I'm going to you know, I gotta have away and
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: take over the tower. This is what I'm focusing on
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: right now. We will get to that other stuff, but
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: right now, I gotta clean this plot up before we
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: can go any further. So there's always always a lot
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: of little bit of meta in here with with Sanderson.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: I think he's I think he's a little more meta
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: than some of the other authors than Jordan is, right.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: He's a different kind of meta.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: Different meta's aff He likes to talk about his writing
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: in his writing.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which Jordan was sort of allergic to.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, because Jordan wasn't a professional writer. Jordan was a
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: military guy. He was. He became a writer later and
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: that's something he was, but like he had other careers first,
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: and I feel like he wrote about the things he
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: experienced in war whereas Sanderson writes about writing.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, because that's what he does in.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: A way that I love. That's very clever, and you know,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: he knows all the tricks, and he's he's he's a
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: very academic. He writes outlines, you know, and and and
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: in a way it's it's really really technically good writing.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: It just lacks some of the organic news that I
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: think Jordan had has and and some of the authenticness
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: to it as well, right, Like there's just the way
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: the emotion of someone being in war and seeing bodies
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: torn apart, and like it's just it's hard not to
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: be like, Okay, yeah, that's okay. He's writing that from
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: a place of experience, and like I just know Sanderson's
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: not right, Like I just know he's not. Like when
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: he's writing about magic people flying around with giant swords
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: cutting each other up, Like I just know, there's no
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: there's just no reality there whatsoever. There's no experience there whatsoever.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: So it just hits differently to me for some reason.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: I Mean, it's the difference between some heartbroken drug addict
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: playing a beautiful song they wrote on a guitar, like
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: on a corner versus someone like working with a team
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: in a studio to make the next pop hit.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Right, they just hit different, They just.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Hit There are both technically songs that are three and
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: a half minutes long, but like they're they're just different.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: And they can both be technically really excellent songs and
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: stuff like that.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: But yeah, but one is coming from a place of
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: lived experience and heartbreak and pain and like raw emotion,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: and the other one is craft did to appeal to
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: a mass audience. You know, they're different, different structure, different folks.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: I like both personally, but they are very different moods.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of why I call Sanderson the Marvel
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: of fantasy. Right, He's like he's writing this massive, interconnected
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: universe and he is just he understands the mechanics of
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: how to write a good story. And so you get
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: something that is going to hit a certain formula and
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: going to hit certain points every time, is going to
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: be a certain quality, but it might not be special
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: or surprising or surprising.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is fun.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is fun. It is fun and not even surprising,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Like reading it through the first time, it can be surprising,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Like you can have surprises and twists in it. But
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: once I've read through it the first time, I rarely
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: find a lot more in it the second time, which
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: is crazy to me because, like I know, people are
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: screaming at me because like the Cosmi has so much death,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: I'm constantly discovering new things, and like, yes, because he
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: keeps revealing new stuff in new books that changes the
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: content text, so you go back, right, But if you
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: were to have all of the cosmeir out and read
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: through it, I think by the time you got to
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: the end, there would be no mysteries left for you
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: to go back and discover. By the way, have I
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: mentioned that Wind and Truth came out this week and
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: I've been listening to book five Wind of Truth. I'm
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: about halfway through.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: So I take it it's good.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: But standard I'm you know, I'm waiting for the Sanderlanch
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: right because, like we all know, there's this end of
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: his book which is just gonna be crazy. There's a
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: lot going on. There's a lot of reveals again, some
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: of them right like I saw coming, because the community
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: has seen some of the things coming. I don't want
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: to spoil anything, right, but like, so far, I've had
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: two reveals both of which were heavily speculated about in
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: the thing, and I went, oh, okay, so they were
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: right about that, right, Like, that's sort of what's my
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: reaction has been so far on the big reveals is Okay,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: we were right about that. Oh not necessarily like the
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: old only theory. Right, there's multiple theories, and I'm like, oh,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: that that was the right one. So far, nothing that's
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: made me go, oh my god, I didn't see that
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: coming at all. But again, halfway through the book, right,
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: that's before all the big reveals. That's still definitely in
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: the set up period.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: So so returning to this book.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: Returning to this book.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know why it's relevant that Alvarn is late
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: to her appointed beating. It doesn't seem to lead anywhere,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: but we get a mention of her.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so here's it could either be just
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: that like the towers being rearranged and she got lost,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: right totally.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: That was my guest. Yeah, totally. It was just like
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: your basic bubble of evil switcheroo.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: We did just see the forsaken fornication right in the previous.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Uh oh, which could have been receiving orders that.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that Messana came back and gave her a bunch
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: of orders. That's the only other thing I have on
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: that is that she's dealing with the aftermath of the forsaken.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Sure that could be. I prefer the hallways just switched
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: on her, because that's just because it's what happens to
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: a grain and a page. So the next thing I
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: had was that the Reds in their own Ajia quarters
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: are all very like angry and cranky and suspicious. And
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: I just thought that was interesting that the people who
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: are ostensibly on top and in control are so angry
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: and don't even like each other, and how maybe that
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: means that there's something sort of rotten in their entire
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: like collective hallucination together.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, being on top is always the most vulnerable
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: place to be or a target for everybody else, right like, but.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Even to each other, they're even looking at each other
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: with suspicion in their own quarters, It's like, this is
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: the place you should be secure. And yet and yet.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Speaking of which, Intel just laid off a whole bunch
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: of people for some reason after being on top of
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: the industry for years and years and years and not
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: related in any way, shape or form, I'm sure. Anyway,
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: back to the Molis.
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I always think it's interesting when the people who
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: are on top of a power structure are fighting with
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: each other more than anyone else.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: It just it makes me question everything about their motivations
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: and their methods, just saying.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes, what I find it is that people see who's
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: on top, think it's going to be oh, hey, I
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: can join the people on top, and that's an easy
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: ride because they're already on top. We don't have to struggle,
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: we don't have to fight anymore to get on top.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: And then you end up with this company that is
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: full of people who are taking the easy ride and
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: enjoying the fruits of the labor from what happened before.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: And it becomes a situation where, yeah, you just you
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: have a lot of waste in your in successful companies
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: and you don't see it because you're successful, right, And
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: so it builds and builds and builds and builds until
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: you reach your critical point and then everything falls apart.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: It's almost like success built on exploitation and power hoarding
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: isn't the way to go.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: That combined with you know what, things fail slowly and
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: then they fail quickly. Which is you know, you see
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: a slow decline for a long time on big complex
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: systems and then all of a sudden, there's a breaking point. Right.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: I was watching like the Mount Saint Helen's explosion.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: Right, oh yeah, yeah.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: That's a complex system where the eruption happens slowly and
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: then it happens very quickly, things financial crashes.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: It was a small earthquake and then it was the
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: biggest eruption in in history. It was the biggest sideways eruption.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but it was a very small earthquake that
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: actually started. It was just one little rock just happens
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: to finally reach its tipping point and tumble down. And
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: then we had.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: The two thousand and eight financial crisis. Right, complex system
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: that was failing slowly and then all of a sudden
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: it was failing very quickly. Right. And I think the
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: climate change is oh, get political, but we're in trouble
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: with climate change because we are still in.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: The climate change isn't political. Anyone who says climate change
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: is political is being overly political and they can just
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: skid out all like, no, the tipping point realities of
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: climate change or something. I studied that in college from
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: a like policy and management standpoint, not from a climate
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: science standpoint, but just like how do disasters work and
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: how much more likely are disaster is going to be?
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: And it's yeah, the whole tipping point thing where yeah,
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: it fails slowly until it doesn't. We're in the last
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: few seconds of fucking around before finding out really hits home.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Like the finding out is kind of beginning if you're
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: paying attention.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: Well, and my big issue of the climate change is
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: the climate change is a third or equation, right, because
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: climate is dependent on the amount of heat in the atmosphere.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: The only heat in the atmosphere is dependent on the
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: amount of carbon in the atmosphere, which is dependent you know,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: which then traps the sun. Right, So like to reduce
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: climate change, we have to reduce carbon and then wait
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: for the Like there's like all these things like it's
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: not we're if we stopped emitting carbon today, we're screwed.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: If we eliminate all the carbon in the atmosphere today,
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: we're screwed. Like it's like it's because we haven't acted earlier, right, Like,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: so we've really hit this point where where mathematically it's
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: just like, oh my god, there's like even if we
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: we do things and screwed. I don't want to go
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: into the like, oh my god, there's nothing we can do.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: We can always improve the outcomes.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, right, absolutely, but there at.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: This point there is no way that we're not going
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: to see significant effects of climate change on human society
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: going forward.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Right, And that was becoming true for a long time.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, like even like international scale science has caught
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: up to like we we we may we may be
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: in the act of walking over that last line, like
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: right now, right right as we're writing this paper, this
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: is what is happening like that, And yeah, yeah, so
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Alida is climate change, but for the White Tower, that's
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: that's all to say that.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And you know, we we definitely got compared
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: Alida to Trump often enough that it's kind of fitting
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: that he's coming back at the same time we're talking
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: about her again and.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: Her it's our fault.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: It's our fault, it's our fault. We did it, We
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: did it.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: God. Speaking of Elida, though, the next thing we have
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: is a GWayne really meditating on how she is going
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: to approach this confrontation that needs to not be a confrontation. Sure,
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: and she decides that the best way to get through.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: She decides that this is not the time to try
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: to actually go for a head to head with Alida.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: She like, I want to just keep this on a simmer.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: So she decides to just say nothing, to just go
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: with absolute silence and non reactivity instead of going for
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: the jugular like she wants to. And it's so hard
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: for her that she vibrates and probably gets the beginnings
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: of an ulcer before she drops the soup. But like
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: that is what she decides is that she needs to
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: not engage with Alida, which you know changes in not
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: that many more chapters, like by the end of the book, right, sure, but.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: I get she's still trying to build a profoundation with
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: the people around her. She doesn't this is it's too
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: early to force a confrontation or else would we kind
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: of like lose the freedom that she's gotten used to
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: having to sort of not again not necessarily undermine Allied anymore,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: but help the White Tower. And if she you know,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: she's like, what can I do from a cell basically.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: Which yeah, I mean it makes sense. I can't find
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: any fault in her logic on this one. Yeah, she
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: gets to the rooms and finally gets to know who
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: may Donnie is. She's been ignorant about who may Donnie
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: was this whole time, but now she's able to make
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: contact with may Donnie, which is I believe that.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: Puts a name to a face basically right.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is the beginning of her really developing
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: connections with the actual would be powers aside from Alida.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: This leads to her meeting the Black Auja Hunters.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Because this the whole reason that may Donnie is still
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: there is because she had to swear an oath to
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: the Black Aja Hunters, who discovered the rebels, who made
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: them swear the fourth Oath, which is ironic considering that's
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: what Elia talking about, deeply ironic. Then Madonnni's already sworn
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: a fourth oath of obedience, just not to Alida, and
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: so she can't leave because she's she's been sworn not
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: to And so this whole thing where Gwayne's like, why
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: isn't she God, Elia's just fucking with her. Why is
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: she still here if it's been obvious that like she
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: and is because she's sworn an oath to obey and
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: they've told her she cannot leave and she has to
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: continue to spy. Right if you go back and remember,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: there's a whole scene in the basement where they they're like, Okay,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: you're gonna try and renew relationship with Alida, and she's like,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do that, like too fucking bad.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: Well right, and she's like I already tried that on
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: behalf of the Rebels. It didn't work, Like you just
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: have to try again. And then Alida knows about her
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: being a rebel. She's like, all right, fine, I'll let
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: the seduction go forward, so that way I can play
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: mind games with her and learn more. And like may
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Donnie's caught like three different ways. It's very awful. So yeah,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Agwaine is basically there to serve as a personal serving
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: made to Elida and may Donnie as they have a
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: dinner quote unquote date which is just so full of
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: barely veiled threats and like weird smugness that it's really uncomfortable.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of Agwayne looking at Alida and
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: really again Sanderson getting to be like, here's my first
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: look at Alida. Here's my first chance to write Alida
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: and being like, yeah, she seems changed. She doesn't seem
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: like the Alida that we met in book one, Like
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: what happened to her? What happened?
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: What happened? Yeah?
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Is this is this just a shift of because power?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Is it just that power corrupts? Or is there something else?
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: Agwayne had met this woman before, and Elia had struck
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: her as stern but not tyrannical. Power changed people, or
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: you know, Fane.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: Or was it Fane?
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it appeared that in Elida's case, holding the ambulance
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: seat had making her stern, taking her sternness and solemnity
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: and replace them with a healthy sense of entitlement and cruelty.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: And it's like or Fane, Yeah, because I really, I
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: really want to give credit to Alida being fundamentally like
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: not the worst before being corrupted to become the worst.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: Like Faine is very very corrosive. He's really bad.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: I think it were more as a Romaine, right, yeah.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Fine, yeah exactly, not great but not.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Bad problematics someone you have to manage, but like has
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: the right ideals and thinks she's doing the right thing
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: and you know, is not in it for personal gain
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: or greed, right, and.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: When push comes to shove, she will step in on
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: your side and like be on the team, and she
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: will accept the decision and actually work for the group
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: ends once the vote's been taken. Like not tyrannical, not
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: building a palace that rivals the White Tower as a part,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Like none of that fits the woman we initially met,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: but it very much fits what Faine does to people.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: What I should say, what more death does to people?
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Like that is the person who came to aer At Hall, right,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Like that's the AIRT Hall destroying personality really coming through Faine.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: Sort of just a weird creep, but like this slick
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: worm tongue character that can corrupt anyone. That's the AIRT
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Hall guy.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: And you know it's Matt's corruption, right, we've seen this
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: corruption over It wasn't Eleda involved in cleansing that of
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: the corruption?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: I believe so because she's one of the stronger sisters
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: in the Tower, so she would have been there.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she was there.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: So she also spent time talking to Faane, like specifically
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: she goes giving him private audiences and stuff like they
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: spent time together. So yeah, it's it's hard to imagine
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: that this. I mean, Faine even talks about how Alida
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: will never trust anyone.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: Again, right, Yeah, he talks about how he touched her, right,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: so he's one of her victims very clearly, just like
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: what Tom the guy ran fighting Tom, Yes, thank you Tom,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: riots and right, definitely one of his victims. Right. You
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: know there's a couple other people that we know or
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: are absolutely touched by Fane and it's just it's like
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: it's the chaos, it's the Joker plot, right, It's just
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: like people are just going to be corrupt and bad,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: and the stain of aired Hall escaped and this is
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: something Matt did kind of right, I mean, Faine really
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: did it and really pulled it out. But I think
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: if Matt hadn't taken the dagger, he wouldn't have the
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: power he has.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, this is entirely ultimately because of Matt's impulsive decision
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: to grab the dagger. Faine would not have been who
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: he was and been able to corrupt Alida if the
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: dagger had not escaped the perimeter. So that's sort of
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: a bummer.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because because Fame took the soul of
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: more Guy, More Death. Yeah, took the soul of more Death,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: More Death. But Matt really took the corruption of mah
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: mash it aar and pulled it, Yeah, and pulled it
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: out of shadow logos right with a dagger.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: It physically taking an item from the city outside the
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: perimeter is what really broke containment quite literally. Yeah, And
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: so then we get sort of the yeah, so the
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: fourth Adja or the fourth oath discussion happens. So, so
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: this discussion about like how Maydannie is being made to
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: look through historical records to see like all the inventive
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: ways that her and her co conspirators could be torture
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: to death or whatever.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: It's like really really weird hand.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: And then we shift to an oath of obedience.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: Clearly down in front of a Gwain just because like, hey,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: this is also something I can be doing to you too.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Right right, She's like, I can torture both of you
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: at the same time with the same concept. It's fine.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: And then she moves on to the I want to
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: take away everyone's free will and just have a fourth
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: oath of obedience, and Agwaine is like, I either need
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: to literally bite your teeth, your throat out with my teeth,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: or I'm gonna have to drop the soup and create
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: a distraction so that way we have something else to
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: do other than listen to you say things that require
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: me to physically destroy you with my bare hands. And
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: she says a great Elida's like, how dare you? Agwaine's
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: firstsponse is I'm sorry that happened? Perfect is said I
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: answer because She's like, I really didn't want any of
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: this situation, So I'm sorry that this happened. I mmm,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: this is not what I wanted. It's so great, it's
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: so wise, Tod I.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: Oh god, and Elida she's just awful.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, that village that might rug costs more
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: than your village. Oh my god, get your classes, ask
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: the fuck out of here, disgusting.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Or teasing may Donnie about taking away her shawl, like
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: oh oh, And then when Madonnie freaks out, she's like, oh,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: just a joke. I'm just joking. That's such a bully tactic.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: It's such a bullying like bullshit.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: I'm just joking, child child, Yeah right. She even uses
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: the word child like I've already done it in my mind,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: but we're gonna pretend that I haven't. Yeah, And then.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: Some great foreshadowing, how would Alia feel about these exaggerated
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: rumors if the shawan Chan slapped a cold a dom
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: around her idiot neck, She's.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: She's gonna say, I promise if you send me home,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: I will send ten women in my place. That is
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: how this bitch is going to react.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, that's clearly exactly exactly what happens
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: to her. She could say it I'm slapped around her
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: neck and she gets hold off. That's how this whole
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: thing resolves. So like right there in the beginning, Sanderson's like,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: so this is what I'm gonna do with that blowline,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: by the way, just in case you were wondering.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, He's like, yeah, Elida is gonna get the thing
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: that you feel bad about wanting her to get. That's
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: that's where we're going with a lot of oh. And
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: then she uses the opportunity of cleaning up soup to
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: recruit may Donnie to her.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: Cause yeah, my another alight a line. How many sisters
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: will have to do penance before they acknowledge my authority?
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: The beatings will can you continue until morale proves right?
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: Truly?
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Truly? Yeah.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: May Donnie tries to be like, you can't order me around,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: and Agwaine's like I'm your Homorlane, deal with it, and
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: may Donnie's like, you know what, that sounds good? Sounds good?
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: All right, fine, it's great. I'll take your compliments. I
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: will consider talking to you later. Like she's she's an
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: easy cell. Elida has been tough.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: I think there's an important paragraph here too about Agwaine,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: about the three ohs. Right, oh yeah, yeah, because Agwaine
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: does a switch that we talked about. Right in the beginning,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: she's like, we should not be doing three o's, they're terrible,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: and then later on she's like, no, three o's make
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: the ice at eye. And there is a bit of
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: like retcon here where it's like once she herself hadn't
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: understood the importance of oaths, but she had learned, as
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: every I said I must their importance. The three o's
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: were what made the ice at eye. They were kept
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: the ice that I doing what was best for the world.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: But more than that, they were a shelter from accusations. Uh.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: And to me, it's just again weak sauce.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, that is extremely weak sauce.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not against having three o's, but the ones that exist.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: Are dumb, and that justification does not hold water for me. No,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: Like I get having a couple of you know, safeguards
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: on the magic nukes, but a shelter from accusation. The
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: lying oath is the one that gets you all into
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: the most trouble. It's the not making weapons and not
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: killing people indiscriminately that I think are really what's helping
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: you out. I think the lying one is doing more
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: harm than good.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, she recruits me, Donnie, which is like that
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: whole like I'm your amul and her being like wait,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: what still okay? Like where I thought you were done
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: with that. It's kind of not as bad as the
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: the Trader or Gwyn had to be like no, I'm
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: still Bannon. Yeah, but me Donnie does have to be
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: be like slapped and be like yo, hey, I'm your ambulance.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: Listen like obey me.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, which is great foreshadowing for the next chapter
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: with Avianda in the wise one situation where a Gwayne's
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: just like, no, I am the ombrelind it doesn't matter
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: that I'm cleaning up soup. I'm still the omreline.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: It's very the inverse of what Avianda's going through in
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: the next chapter.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Where she needs to be doing that and saying, I
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: am a wise.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: One exactly exactly we're seeing here in Agwayne that Avianda has,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: you know, like the she has the shoes that could
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: take her home the whole time.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: You know, there's no place like the waist, there's no place.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: Like the waste exactly exactly.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Alida says she's going to make her come back. This
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: she doesn't never make her come back and oh yeah, okay, has.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: That meeting with all the different sitters that Agwyn had
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: been working with, and then she like beats her. It's
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: when a GWayne says, I expect you to be a
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: dark friend, but the dark one wouldn't have you.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: That's when she tells her off right, I forget that
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: she's serving at that one again.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: It's literally a repeat of this scene because oh, well,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: maybe you've learned your lesson after all the things to
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: happen in this book. And then and then that happens
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: because like Gwenne did not learn her lesson because she
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: is the Omerlin.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah she could have just done it here, No, she couldn't.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: She needed the audience. The fact that that other dinner
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: has all those difference. It's like a like fifteen sitters,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: twelve sitters, Like it's a huge amount of important women.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: There's only may Donnie here. This is absolutely not the time, gotcha. Also,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: she needs to build all those relationships with all those women,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Like when she walks into the room for that second dinner,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: she's like, shit, it's all the women I've been working with,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: Like this is the make or break. I can't back
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: down in front of them. Whereas may Donnie she doesn't
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: even know who may Donnie is when she walks into
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: the room.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: So and it is this moment where she she's not
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: gonna lose any reputation my giving into Alido.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: She won't lose any g. Yeah, she literally does. It
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: is not going to lose any G by just like
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: getting through this as best she can and like, yeah,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: this is literally just a feeling out mission for her.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: This is not meant to be the assault. And yeah,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: then she goes and has her dinner and thinks about
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: how everything went and reorganizes her thoughts about the mission,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: and it's just like, damn, Alida really is her own
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: worst enemy, right.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: And just Agwayne's duty as ambuline wasn't to speed that fall,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: but to do whatever she could do to hold the
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: tower and its occupants together. That's the bit. The key
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: change in.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: This important shift, important reorganization of her motivations and also
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: a good refocusing of our goals as the reader. What
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: are we cheering for here? Is it just Isidaye politics?
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: Like what are we doing?
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: This is the goal Sanderson is refocusing us.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Her quest is no longer to bring down Alida,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: which it has been right this whole time, is like,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: declare war on Alida, form an army to bring down Alida,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: take down Alida, like that's been But that's what the
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: Black Aja wants. They want the two halves of the
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: tower fighting. And here Agwain comes the realization that's counterproductive.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: I can't be doing well. She doesn't think of it
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: as what the Black a Jaw wants, but she can't
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: be hurting the tower. She has to be right.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: And this is why the Yellows try to recruit her.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and this is why the Grays should have
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: recruited her, right yeah, yeah yeah.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: And then she goes back to Sylviana, who is reading
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: a book about the rise of various Ombre looks for
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: no apparent reason reason, Uh huh, what's Also fun is
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: that this book is mentioned in the show. Oh okay, Yeah,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: there's that exchange between Shiiam and Varren where Veron gets
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: him out of the room, she specifically asks to borrow
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: her copy of Meditations on the Kindling Flame. Very specifically.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, okay, okay, I see you bringing in
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: a book twelve reference. That's fun. I like it.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: A GWayne. Well, the woman said, up the emblem is spoken, Yes,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: I have awayin says, and.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Then she bends over to get spanked. It's just like,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: it's all about attitude. It is not about your position.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: It is about your attitude.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: And this is where she comes to the realization that
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: like emotional pain trumps her physical pain. Yeah, and that
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: like the emotion, the physical pain is just not that
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: important because she's in so much emotional pain because the Tower,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: which is this thing that she's made her heart. We
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: can talk about exactly why she's made the White Tower
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: her heart, but she has being the White Tower is
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: the thing she has dedicated her whole life to right
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: over becoming a wise one. Right. She left the wise ones.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: She left a ton of opportunities to just be an
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: I said, I this is what she cares about to
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: be the ambulance seat. You know, she is the amberlance seat.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: That's how she takes down Massana later.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: Yep, yep. Her faith in herself as the Omberlin is
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: utterly integral to her entire soul existence. Her entire metaphysical
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: being is the ombrelin seat.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: If Rand's land, Agwayne is the tower.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. She embodies that whole ass island
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: all the way up to the tippy top of the tower. Yeah.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: She's the spoke around which he turns.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: Very much so, very much so, and together they make
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: beautiful music for the rest of us to experience.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: And so yeah. So she starts laughing during the beating,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: and Sylviana's like, Okay, you're nuts. What's going on? And
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: She's like, I'm not broken, it's just absurd. This is absurd.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: You're being absurd. I'm being absurd. This whole thing is absurd,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: which I agree with. This whole thing's absurd.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: And Sylviana comes so close, so close to her own radicalization,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: and then she just shies away from it. It's going
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: to take her a whole nother book and a whole
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: bunch more of a gain being beaten before she actually
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: leaps over the chasm, but you see her tiptoeing up
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: to the edge of the chasm and looking over and
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: then being like, no, no, I'm going to retreat to
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: my safe thoughts and not not do the new thing
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: because that would be scary. But she almost gets there.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: She's like, I see what you're saying. You know, I
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: can't refuse to beat you, spoilers, you can actually you
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: can refuse to beat here. You might end up beaten
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: and thrown into prison yourself, but it is literally a
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: choice to beat her. And then Agwayn in the next
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: paragraph is like you know that thing with Shamarin and
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: the acceptance, Like it's all about acceptance, Like you are
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: accepting Alida as Omberlin and I am not. Like the
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: obvious subtext is stop accepting Alida as Ombrelin and we
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: can work together to actually heal this fucking tower. Yeah,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: get it out from under the madman on top, mad
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: woman on top.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: And in the line again that was started this off
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: with saying this is her veins of Gold moment, and
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: she has a line it's not hardness at all, it's
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: not strength that makes me laugh, it's understanding. And this
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: is her whole.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: It's not being that is the veins of gold.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like I thought that I had to
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: be harder to stand up and laugh at the pain.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: And it's not about being harder.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: And again like that that is good writing from Sanderson
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: because that is true. That is what the thesis has
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: been and will continue to be. I mean, it's when
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: Kad Swain asked, sir Lia, tell me the difference between
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: being strong and being hard right, randol Thorpe confuses the two.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: This is a GWayne becoming very unconfused about that. She
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: is realizing that, Yeah, no, it's not strength, it is
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: it's not hardness. It is understanding and that gives you strength.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: But it's understanding. It's knowledge. It's being able to bend
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: where you need to bend, and hold firm where you
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: need to hold firm. It's not just about being stubbornly
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: resistant to everything.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: And Okay, so here's going a little meta talking about
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: like the Andrew Tait characters, these like podcasts bro dudes
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: with the red Pill, Like that's all about being harder,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: not about being stronger.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, they equate strength with being like jacked up and
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: emotionally stunted.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: And hard, yeah, hard and inflexible.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, very much so. And they see being having understanding
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: as being weakness rather than strength.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, exactly the.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: Toxic manisphere being dissected by Brandon Sanderson of all people
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: love that from you.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the difference between toxic masculinity as in
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: our modern parlance, right, this toxic masculinity is this this
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: hardness and and you know, I think that the there
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: is little crisis around like what do we see as
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: masculine these days?
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: And feminine? And we've got a lot of crisis around
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: how we understand ourselves.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: Understand gender right, Like, it's it's hard, it's hard. We're
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: making changes, and I think I think people are because
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: it's hard. People get frustrated and angry about it, right
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: because it is. It's not straightforward, it's not easy. The
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: conversations need to be had.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: Well, especially when we're yeah, not not clear because as
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: a society on the difference between being strong and hard,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: we are literally confusing them. Like Randolphorne, we need some
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: sorely a cat's swain energy to come in and sends
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: right emphasis on sorely because soreally is slightly less problematic
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: than cats.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: And I certainly think that's a lesson i'd learned, right, like,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: because I think I had a lot more when I
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: was young. I got angry a lot because I mistook
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: the two.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: Sure, I mean I think most people probably have to
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: pass through that. I don't think many of us come
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: out of like the narcissistic parts of childhood like any
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: other way. I feel like our society is just like no,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: like it's our whole society. I don't think it's necessarily
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: a gender thing. We all have to work through it. Men, unfortunately,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: just get given a lot less language and tools for
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: working through it. Right when you're a young woman, you
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: get given a bunch of tools and information about why
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: that's not how we're going to continue, whereas men get told, yes,
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: this is actually a thing we will praise you for.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: But I feel like we all have to pass through
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: it at some point.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: I think we all should pass through it at some point.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: We all have people deal with it.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, whether or not we do is.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean anger, Maybe it's just because I'm
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: a very angry, but like, yeah, anger is definitely Learning
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: to not just bludgeon things with anger has been a process. Right,
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: Are we ready to start the next chapter?
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, which goes into someone accepting punishment again, so
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: we're on a theme.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So from the righteousness of Iguaine's punishment, we now
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: shift to the nonsensicalness of aviand'sence. So should I read
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: us in or you want to just get into it?
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: You know, read us in a little bit, because I do.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: I do think he does a good job of getting
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: into Avienda's head and sort of being from her POV,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: because I do I like Aviendis POV and we don't
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: get a lot of that from Jordan, just the ridiculousness
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: of wetlanders and some of the hypocriticalness around dresses and
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. I think it's I don't know how
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: much of it you want to read, but I think
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: it's a well written POV from Sanderson. Again, incredibly fucking
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: frustrating that she can't figure out that she just needs
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: to say, She's, oh, these wise ones are being ridiculous.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: I have to stop listening to them because they're being ridiculous.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: Well, and again, as I said earlier in the recording,
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: if this was the only chapter where she had this
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: circling around and the next time we visit in with her,
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: she's like, no, this is dumb. Then we wouldn't complain
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: about it. The fact that this is setting us up
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: for like a thousand chapters of this going around and
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: around again, that's why we're complaining about it now. But yeah,
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: I agree. Getting into Avianda's head is a rare treat
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: in the series. And again it's very much Sanderson saying
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: I've been reading these characters for as long as you all,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: and I'm really excited to be here and let me
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: just like go through rolo depth of all the characters
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: I'm to write and like show you what I can
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: do with them.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: And it is.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: It is fun. I do think this is very authentic
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: to the Avianda we have come to know, although it
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: does feel a little bit like a step back in
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: her cognition and her processing a little bit.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is she's more ayeeal than Wetlander.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: Like it does seem like she's come a long way
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: and acclimated a lot to the Wetlander way of life,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: and here she's going back to like what are these
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: tree things? And it's like, oh god, yeah, okay, Avianda,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: like you know, like you were being ridiculous, but in
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: her own mind, she likes to pretend that she is
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: not nearly as Wetlander centric as she is.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it still feels authentic to who she was.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: It still feels like if we had been in her
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: head in like fires of Heaven, this is how she
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: would have sounded.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: So right, right, right. But yeah, this is a good
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: point that this does feel like the fires of Heaven, Avienda,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: not a knife of dreams, Avianda.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: But I think you're really right about her self image
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: being very matt like in terms of her behavior not
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: lining up with her thinking, not lining up with her words.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: And that's what the wise ones are calling her out
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: on and punishing her for, is the fact that she
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: is behaving one way and thinking of herself in another way.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: Like, Oh, I don't even think it's that. I think
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: they just want her to say, Like I think the
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: final test of being a wise one is saying, oh,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: I don't have to listen to you, I am your equal.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: Otherwise you'll just be beaten down by the other wise
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: ones all the time.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that is literally the lesson. But like, that's
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying, she's not seeing herself as a wise one,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: she's still in her head thinking like I just exited
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: the waist and I still don't know what these tree
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: things are, like it's all it's all of a piece.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: Gotcha, gotcha? Oh. But then she totally does know what
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: the trees things are and it's just oh, yeah, trees exactly.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: They're like slapping her, being like, girl, you know the
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: word for trees. You know the difference between oaks and pines.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: You know what deciduous means. Stop when around.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: This is your degree in botany, God damn it, like.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: Confidence. You went to college for this exactly exactly.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: And there is a lot of imposter syndrome going on
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: with Avienda here right this idea, like you know, everyone's
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: asking her opinion, and then she gives it and she's like, well,
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: why are they asking me? I don't fucking know anything, right,
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: I'm dumb, though, Why would they ask me? And it's like, no,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: you you're really close to rand. You have good opinions.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: You call it every single time. It's the same thing
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: with it when she was testing the tyroanreal and she's
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: getting it right every single time, right, boom one after
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: the other. And she's like I and even on the
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: last one. She's like, I mean, I still don't know,
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: but I think this one, if you give it two
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: turns in a twist and a bop and give it
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: a spin, it will create this intricate map. And she's like,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: just a hunch. That's You're going off a hunch on
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: that one, okay, yeah? Uh? And Avin is like, I
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know. It might it might, you know,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying it might.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: I will say I am feeling very personally attacked by
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: this section. I've other things in my life have been
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: rapidly escalating with this exact conversation, and yeah, personally attacked
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: by Avander's arcure. This was written to personally attack me
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: at this moment in the Year of Our Lord in
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: December twenty twenty four. Rude, rude, all right, Marie is
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: in chapter three The Ways of Honor, and our symbol
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: is the allel Spears and Buckler. Avianda crouched with her
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: Spear sisters and some true Blood scouts atop the low
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: grassy hill, looking down at the refugees. They were a
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: sorry lot, these domani wetlanders with dirtied faces that had
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: not seen a sweat tent in months. They're emaciated children
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: too hungry to cry. One sad mule pulled a single
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: cart along the hundred struggling people, but they hadn't piled
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: in the vehicle they carried. There wasn't much of either.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: They plodded northeast along a pathway that couldn't quite be
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: called a road. Perhaps there was a village in that direction.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: Perhaps they were just fleeing the uncertainty of the coastal lands.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: The hilly landscape was open, save for the occasional stand
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: of trees. The refugees hadn't seen Avianda and her companions,
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: despite the fact that they were less than a hundred
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: paces away. She'd never understood how wetlanders could be so blind?
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: Didn't they watch noting any oddities on the horizon? Couldn't
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: they see that traveling so near to a hilltop practically
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: invited scouts to spy on them. They should have secured
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: the hill with their own scouts before coming anywhere near.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: Didn't they care? Avianda shivered? How could you not care
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: about eyes watching you? Eyes that might belong to a
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: man or maiden holding a spear? Were they so eager
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: to awake from the dream Avianda did not fear death,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: but there was a very big difference between embracing death
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: and wishing for it. Stop there. She goes for a
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: long time in that vein about cities and wetlanders and culture,
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: and then she thought thinks about a lane and politics.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: But I'm not going to read like the first half
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: of the chapters, so I'll cut it there.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: One line that we sort of get tough after she's
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: done with all of that is she's a shame she'd
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: resisted the change for so long, talking about staying a
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: maiden for as long as she did instead of becoming
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: an apprentice, And like that's just sort of very appropriate
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: now because now she's resisting the change from apprentice doing
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: the same thing.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I was also thinking as I was reading that
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: about how like her people used to be, those people
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: like the ieal refugees who straggled into the waste were
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: not much more coherent. I mean, the people that left
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: the breaking, the people that ended up in the waste
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: were a few generations in. But like the ideal started
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: out as just as much confused city people being turned
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: out of their fancy utopian life to wander the apocalypse.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: That's true Yeah, they were just they were there were
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: servant class basically, yeah, they.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: Said, I they weren't agriculturalists, they weren't like warriors, yeah
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: at all. They were servants from to the Magic Elite.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: They were those refugees once upon a time. So you know,
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: just a little a little fun remembering back to book.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: Four, it's it's like Jeeves had kids and they turned
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: out to be like an army of like warrior Butler's.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: I mean the Butler and Jiha does happen at you know,
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: forty thousand years in the future or whatever, just saying.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're talking about not returning to that. This is
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: really and and the beginning of Avienda's ark, where uh
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: the odd guide the cists, why I wonder if the
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: Ael would ever return to the Threefold Land, And that's
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: beginning of her sort of theme about, oh, if we're
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: not returning to the Threefold Land, what is the purpose
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: of the Ayel, which goes to her changing the columns,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: which leads to her future revision, which causes her to
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: change the problem. So that's very much like this whole
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: her plot line about like, if the Iel aren't going
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: back to the Threefold Land, what are we doing as
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: a people, and that's sort of her plot to solve
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: for these books.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: And also we get foreshadowing of the debate that will
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: come about from her solution, right because Ruarc brings to
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: the wise Ones this discussion about we don't want to
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: just be the police force for the wetlands. That's kind
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: of not our jam. That's kind of how they get
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: written into the Dragon's piece, not quite with the same
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: level of disregard that they're currently working under, but like
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: they revise the concept of being the Continental Police that
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: that is the solution to the problem raised here. It's
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: a little it's the foreshadowing feels on the nose and
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: unsatisfying when you know how it ends, because it's like
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: they don't want to be cops and they're gonna get
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: sweet talked into deciding to become cops.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean that is true that he's complaining about it.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: I thought it was something specific. Hold on, let me
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: just want he's not cops.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: It's maybe more like the Peace Corpse, but still it's
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: closer to this thing they say they don't want here
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: than to me.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, but it feels like he's complaining about how like
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: we don't really have the authority to be doing that.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: It's not necessarily like I don't want to be doing that,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: but so much like I don't have the authority to
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: be doing this. And I mean that might be a
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: subtle difference, but to me, it's like, Okay, that's.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: Pretty big difference though, Yeah, because I think the right
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: of conquest and taking the fifth and all of that,
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: like they work in the Dragon's piece, you know, oh,
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: you're gonna get you paid rather than taking the fifth,
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: but still like, yeah, they're currently doing unpaid, unrewarded conquering
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: and it's like so, but then her solution is to
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: literally figure out a contractual way to like make that
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: a permanent arrangement that actually works, right, which is I
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: guess it works. I find it slightly unsatisfying. But it's
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: interesting that he's literally packaging the entire art, the entire
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: foreshadow all into this chapter. This whole chapter tells us
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: everything we need to know about where this is going
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: to go.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the one thing you don't want to
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: do is start creating, like, uh, god, like an ideal
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: Israel situation where you carve out like oh, okay, now
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: they're not going back to the waste. So now we
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: got to carve out a section unk of a trunk
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: of Kyrienne. That's like maybe holy land for the Kyrianne,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: or maybe it'll be like around the Dragon mount because
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: that everyone can fight over the mountain. Oh God, and
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: they should settle on the shores of Tarvlan right on
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: the Dragon mount side.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, I could displace the Tarvlon, the city that's been
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: there for thousands of years. It is the dawn of
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: known civilization is doing.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, anyway, I'm just saying, like there's enough
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: parallels already, we don't need to go into that one.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: The Black Towers not displacing people. They picked some random forest.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: That's true. Well, that's that's the thing about we have
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: times there's so much abandoned land that the Ayel could
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: just settle into, right that it's not a big deal.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: But right right, there's that scene with Rand and the
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: Ogere where he's talked about humanity on retreat as he
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: looks at where all of the old studding were, Like literally,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: there's more land with each passing generation, which is very
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: different from the world we have found ourselves in for
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: the past several centuries.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: And one of the implications is that this reverses that trend,
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: right with the dark one locked away, with all these
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: technological achievements coming forward, with this new age that Rand
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: has created. Yeah, he's breaking the world. What he's doing
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: is he's breaking the medieval world into with a renaissance
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: very much.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: So the rebirth factor is going to be very, very real,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: given how well the last battle ultimately goes.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: Fine with just like all the advancement that we're seeing gunpowder,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: we're seeing steam engines, we're seeing trains, the production trains, right,
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: the production of all of our modern electricity, right, like,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: all those things are coming along in a relatively short
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: period of time.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: So in the making of Tearan, Griol and Quanda are
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: right right.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: And then the magic sort of golden age again that
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: we can remake ungri all Terran Grioll saw on gre
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: All right, like all those things are possible again combined
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: with the return of talents and oh, we're actually recruiting
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: everybody who can channel again, they're not all hiding in
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: these little pockets, so we can have, you know, a
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: university system instead of just one school. Yeah, you know,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: like no, it's just just it's going to be a whole,
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: a whole golden age that you know. This is why
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: I don't believe in Avienda's vision is ever going to
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: be real. Right, Everyone's like, oh, no, that's how the
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: fourth Age turns out. I'm like, no, No, the whole
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: point of the columns is to prevent that from happening.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: It was a necessary goad to get her to make
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: some changes to prevent anything like that from happening.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: But I imagine that's what being a wise one will
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: be in the future is, Like, Oh, here's a possible future,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: a bad future we want you to avoid.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, here's the big generational problem that you need to solve,
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: and here's some ways that you could make it worse.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: So don't do that.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here's your grad student project.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: Basically for the rest of your life. Yeah. I'm curious
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: if the columns are going to continue to take such
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: a direct role in shaping destiny after the end of
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: the third Age, you know, or if they're going to
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: be more like, here's a cool idea for a play.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: Here's some cool like audio visual technology you could figure out,
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: Like here's how to fly. Maybe you should take up rocketry,
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, but it talks about generational problems, right, so
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: like the idea that there won't be generational problems is yeah.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: Well that's just what I'm curious. It's like, is the
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: glass columns going to stay focused on generational problems? Like
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: once the fourth Age starts and it's like like will
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: the will the foot be taken off of the gas
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: on that because it feels like a little ope to
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: be like, oh no, we just have an oracle that
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: tells us what to do for like problems that are
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: thirty years on the horizon.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 2: But that is exactly what the accepted test is, right
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: that they take. They go in, they see all these
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: different visions of all the sorry not.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: Accepted oh apprentice. Yeah yeah, okay, yes.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: The Wise one Apprentice test. Right, you go in and
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: you see all these That's the whole thing. I mean,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: we just talked about the season trailer, how they talked
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: about Moraine is going to die at the end of
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: it so Ran can live. And the whole point of that,
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: the whole reason she saw that is she took the
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: Wise One's Apprentice test, went through the three rings, saw
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: all of her potential futures where the possibilities were endless,
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: but she only retained some of them. And one of
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: the possibilities she retained is these three outcomes of either
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: land fear, you know, either Ran dies, land Fear takes
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: him away and he becomes Lewis theren or she takes
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: out Landfear through the doorway, right, And those are the
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: only three possibilities. And that's all about the wise one's test.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: So having hints to.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: The future, So I question, why you need the columns
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: in additions to the rings, seems op, well, you've already
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: got the rings. You don't need the columns. Like after
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: evil is literally sealed away, like the stakes are lower, right,
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: we get to like go on our own free will
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: way and just figure it out.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: We don't need I mean, well, but then you can
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: tell stories about people's lives and people's you know, I
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: That's that's fun speculations, Yes, that's fun speculation.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: What what what will the columns tell you about when
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: the fate of the world isn't quite in jeopardy all
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: the time exactly?
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: Like what could they care about next? You know, it
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: can be finding water, like really like that seems you know,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know what will the big crisis be I
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: want the next series, damn it. Maybe they could be
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: deeply involved in the ending of chattel magic slavery, that
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: would be a pretty important generational problem to solve. Sean
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: Channer just going to fix themselves over night, Unfortunately, No.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, slavery is a super easy problem to solve.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: You can, I mean solve it in a generation maybe
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: two at the most.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Elefo Avanda says she would find honor in
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: her new life some how, And I'm thinking, like eventually,
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: like so far from now. It's nice that you say
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: it's gonna happen, but it's gonna be so long. Like
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: I was worried she was going to roll up to
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: the last battles still unsure of her power. You know.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: Interesting that the ghosts leave her with a bit of
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: an itch, as though she were about to be attacked,
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: a little little sensing of the pattern. Some talent that
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: a Vianda has that helps her identify the aren't real,
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: helps her identify dead people.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: Either that or it's the general like Dark One thing
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: that gives all channelers the itch, because this is an
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: effect of the Dark One, even though they are not
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: themselves dark ghosts. Sure, sure, but yeah, I definitely, like
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: she said, oh, it's silly for Rork or for not Ruric,
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: but silly for the idea to like question it. And
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: it's like Avianna, they can't all channel. You have a
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: very rare talent with the whole channeling thing, like everyone
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: else has to rely on their normal senses.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Rurke just they you can't always tell people
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: are ghosts from a distance.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. Every work's not a channel or an Avianda
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: should know that.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: But alas there are signs outdated clothes them, ignoring, you know,
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: walking through trees, that sort of thing.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: But like that's true, not casting shadows, right right, right, So.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: But you've got to, you know, be observant, which Ruark is. So,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: but if it's a normal group of people, then you
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: get in that point where you're to question yourself like, wait,
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: are they I don't see any signs, but I don't trust,
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: you know, like I can see that sort of level
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: of paranoia.
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: So yeah, she thinks a bit about how she wants
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: to marry Rand, but only after she has her honor back,
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: and she can't get her honor back until she figures
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: out how she sinned in the eyes of the wise ones,
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: and she just runs around that circle a couple of times.
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: And he's an idiot for asking me to marry him.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: I'm clearly gonna have to ask him. It's not that
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: I think he's cruel, it's just he's dumb. He's dumb, dumb, dumb,
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: so dumb dumbing, dummy dummy. Yeah.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, he's very ignorant for not intuitively knowing your culture.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: But you're perfect your tea Jim to not understand his culture.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: That's totally fine for you to not understand him, but
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: he needs to understand you well.
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: And what I love is like if we went back
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 2: and looked at what she'd never taught him about relationship
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: stuff and she was scared why so she taught him
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: everything else except the relationship stuff, and then blames him
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: because he doesn't know the relationship stuff, like like.
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: None of the boys are good with women. But girl,
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: you are not doing yourself any favors. You're not helping
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: him here. But she's determined she's going to marry him.
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: So it's like, you'd better figure out how to communicate
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: with your husband because come on.
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: So then there's the meet up between the groups sort
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: of they all come together and start talking. That's the
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: next chunk I have, like.
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: Brother discussing about becoming cops.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: So we kind of talked about all of that.
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: Right, restoring order with the Reorks a little thing about
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: restoring order and this is Yeah, his intentions were not clear,
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: asked us to restore order. Are we to be like
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: city guardians? I don't we and like he doesn't you
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 2: know even their place in the post Last Battle world.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: They're not city cops. They come in for political disputes
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: as big armies, right, yeah.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: Which is a super profound difference that I'm sure will
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: make everyone happy.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, we kind of talked about all that.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: We get kind of a time stamp here with Mulane's
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: pregnancy that it's just starting to show beneath her wise
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: One's blouse. I believe by the time we get into
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: the Last Battle, she is starting to get like movement
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: impaired from how close she is to popping. I'm pretty
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: sure there's a scene where she is like basically waddling
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: around being like very pregnant, like not as pregnant as Elaine,
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: but like getting there. I'm pretty sure. So the fact,
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: like I remember her being very pregnant near the end,
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: and so to have her like, oh, her pregnancy is
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: just showing here, I'm like, wow, we actually do cover
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of time in these last three books.
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: There's three to six months left in these books. Like
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: the timeline gets really muddy, especially when we get the
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: timeline dilation and RAN's like up there for a day
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: and like if you go out to the border of
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: the south Lands, it's been like six months, right, you know,
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: like in that single day like that, he really stretches
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: out that timeline. But yeah, you can you can look
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: at like anywhere depending on where you are relative to
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: the last battle. Three to six months basically pass between
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: now and in the end of the series.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's just a pregnancy clock to help us
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: keep track of that. So yeah, then we have Bear
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 1: interviewing Avianda in ways that should invite Avianda to claim
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: her power, but Ali right do not because Avianda is
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: too focused.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: I love this Avianda. How many wise Ones went with Ruark?
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: He's got this refugee, none but me Avianda? Minute? Oh
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: are you a wise one? Now?
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: Rolling out the red car trumpet paper tape. It's all there,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: and Aveanda's just like, I don't think.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, not me, no, sorry, imposter syndrome.
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: And then like on the next page, they're they're they're
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: talking about Randolph thor and Avianna says, I love him,
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: and Bear literally says I was talking to Avienda, the
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: wise one, not the silly girl.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: She doesn't even say wise one is a Brent, the
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: wise one. Literally, God, bur my head against the wall.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love her. She's so
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: driven that she's missing the point entirely. It's just beautiful.
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: I totally empathize. She has a little clarification about how
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: she wants to marry rand but it's not prophesied. Just
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: the fact that he will love her and the other
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: two women is prophesied, which seems like a meaningless piece
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: of nuance, but it merits a page and a half.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: So there you go.
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: And I think here's a paragraph the show why we're
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: doing a double header today. He's a man man of
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: many burdens, Aviana said, more carefully, I fear that he
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: makes many of those burdens heavier than they need to be.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: I once thought there was only one way to be strong.
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: I've learned from my first sister that I was wrong
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: Rand Althora, I do not think he has learned this yet.
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: I worry he mistakes hardness for strength.
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: Ab subsolutely right.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: So that is the theme of these two chapters is
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: mistaking hardness for strength, which is in a lot of
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: ways of the theme of Rand right.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: And Vega time.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, clearly that is not being pulled out
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: of nowhere. Right, Rand has been talking about getting harder,
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: becoming stone, becoming metal, becoming you know, and now now
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: it becomes quendiar.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: But right, Kat's fan and sor early I talk about it.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: It's important, like it's we see it. I think with
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: some of the war wisdom from the other old generals
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: about like the difference between old men and young men,
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's it's a big central thesis that Robert
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: Jordan has been laying at for a long time. And
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: Brandon Sanderson is just saying, yes, I understand that message,
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: and I will be continuing it with our characters. We
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: are not missing that message. He might not have the
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: personal lived experience, but he does know how to read
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: a well delivered message and keep it going.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: Something I do think Brandon Sanderson missed though, when they
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: ask Avianda, how do you know that you will marry him? Right?
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: And she goes, oh, men's viewings, that's not no, no no,
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: no no no no, no, no no, that is a
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: huge mistake. That's yeah, because she did not learn about
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: marrying Rand from men's visions.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: Mmmm. Nope, she got that from the Rings.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: She learned about it from the Rings from going through apprentice.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: She went out to the Rings after promising Elane she
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: would watch over Rand and make sure nobody fell in
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: love with him and nobody else pursued him. Went through
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: the Rings and found out that in her future it
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: was inevitable that she would be with him and love
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: fall in love with him.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the men's viewings added to that.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: Huh huh. But that's why she came back pissed off
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: at him, angry at him, is because all of a sudden,
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: she realized that she was going to be violating her
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: g because she had promised. She promised Agwayne she would
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: look after him for a lane, which is just very convoluted,
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: but she would basically the prophet. He said, oh no,
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: you're prophesied to break that.
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: Well. I think also the Rings told her she would
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: love Rand and all that. Men's viewing added context and
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: detail about the fact that there are two other women,
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: because part of the question is coming up in the
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: context of so you're going to figure out how to
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: have two sister wives. You're going to figure this out
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: with men, and Avianna says, we're going to figure it out,
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: and it sort of goes back and forth, and she's like, look,
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: we're going to figure out. I know we're going to
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: figure it out. Because the viewing said he's going to
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: love three women, like from the rings. I don't think
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: she got the three women from the rings. I think
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: she just got her part of it from the rings.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: Men Men brings in the like you can't escape the
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: two sister wives factor, so you know, but yeah, it is.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: It would be nice if the rings had been brought
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: up in this because yes, that is a very important
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: piece of mything context in what is here on the page.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because like you don't need the whole relationship between
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: avian and Rand. The whole like first two books of it, right,
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: which is most of their relationship where they're together, right
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: is book four, Book five, right, is all based Her
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: entire thing is like I went and went through those
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: rings and now I'm pissed.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: Yep, yep, and it's very frustrating to have that get
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: completely omitted here. Men's viewings are relevant to understanding her
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: acceptance of men, but it's not relevant to her acceptance
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: of her love of Rand.
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: And then there's another line here that's just a classic
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: example of Sanderson just saying things straight out, where he
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: says honor didn't come from being punished. Again, she didn't
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: say G. He says honor, which Avianna never would. So
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: that's a mistake. Honor didn't come from being punished, but
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: accepting a punishment and bearing it restored honor.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: That was the soul of toue, the willing lowering of
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: oneself in order to recover that which has been lost.
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: He got the second half of the sentence.
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: But yeah, but he is translating for us. He is saying,
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: this is what G is, this is what toe is.
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: Let me explain to you in terms of honor.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which it feels less anachronistic than when he uses
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: the word carbon a couple pages back. He talks about
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: her the carbon that strengthens the points of her spirits,
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: which like they are a post technological utopia society, so
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: they could have things like retaining the knowledge of how
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: metallurgy works for things like steel, absolutely valid. I you
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: know they understand the concept of infection right because again,
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: like their medical technology has descended from a place of knowledge.
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: But it feels anachronistic. It feels a little out of place,
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: just tiny bit, tiny bit. So yeah, when he says
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: honor instead of g it's like Robert Jordan would never
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: have held our hands like that. No, no, never, Nowveanda
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: would never translate the word into honor. Never never ever,
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: I mean occasionally in some sentences, but not in this one.
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: She'd be like, it's like that honor thing you guys
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: talk about, and then.
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: She's exactly wrong, exactly exactly. She would compare it to
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: pride or something like that, just like we know what
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: you mean, but you're rock but no here, but I mean,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: but it is a good Standerson insight into like this
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: is the point, this is what Agwayne was talking about
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: last chapter, and you know it gets correct. It's just
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: not as much an Obvio's voice as we could wish.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: And then here's more evidence to Aviendaes, a bunch more
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: evidence th Aaban isn't actually learning anything because she's like, oh,
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm not as strong as I was because
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 2: I fell to the wetlanders ways and I mean, she's like,
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: you're as strong as you've ever been. You're stronger actually,
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 2: But and then she's like, ah, and they want me
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: to learn, but they're not teaching me anything. They're just
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: punishing me. I have no lessons. I'm as strong as
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: i've ever been. I don't understand, like, okay, okay, okay, okay.
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: There is a certain having on a reread. Maybe on
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: the first time I didn't quite get it as quickly
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: because I was like, I don't get why she's being punished,
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: Like I don't. It wasn't something that I understood on
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 2: the first read through. Maybe I missed it, but certainly
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: on a reread it's like, Okay, I understand now.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like I picked up on it about halfway
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: through the arc. Like the first few chapters, I was confused,
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: and then once the repetition got a little much, I
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't see any other explanation for why
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: this is happening other than what ultimately was the correct answer.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: And I was like, damn, I called that way too
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: many chapters ago. This needed to wrap the fuck up.
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: I think when it finally dropped, I did more of the.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: Oh that's it, okay, yeah, sure, yeah yeah.
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: I didn't guess that because it was I thought it
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 2: would be something a little more significant.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: It's really obvious, right, he lays out the thing here
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: like so much. It's like the punishment was the thing
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: the wise Ones wanted her to learn, Like it's too obvious.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: Robert Jordan would never be so obvious.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: No, And they start giving her dead song work, right,
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: They're getting her useless work for instead of useful work
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: for the first time, and it's like Jesus, that is
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: like the biggest I mean, you're essentially treating her like
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: a dead song that is the worst punishment we can think.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: Of, and like wasting her time and energy right, like
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: she could be doing things and instead you want her
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: to be pretending to count thousands of red during the
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: last battle exactly exactly, Like it's it's so dishonorable. I'm
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: almost mad at the wise Ones for not just telling
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: her that she's graduated already. Like I get their reasoning,
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: but like it gets so absurd it makes me want
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: to you know, scold Brandon Sanderson, hence having a podcast
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: where we can scold him and he will probably never
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: hear it.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: And I do like the fact that like she never
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: ever ever comes to this conclusion on her own, the
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: wise ones can't do it. It takes men. Like that
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: is pretty funny, right, Like that that I think is
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: actually like a well played version of it. It's just
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: the you know, you know when the setup for the
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: joke is just way too long and he's.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: Just like that exactly, Yeah, but it is it is
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: awesome that men in her attempt to talk to Avianda
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: and like make friends with her. Is what like, because
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: she's new, right, She's been doing all the old strategies
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: and that's not working, and when men interject something new,
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: that's enough for her to like snap and shift into
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: a new way of being. And it means that her
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: and men have the basis for a good friendship with
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: She even thinks on her trip to the way it's like, oh,
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: I'm really gonna have to like seriously talk to men
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 1: and thank her for being the catalyst to this.
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 2: Which is I mean, this is a big part of
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 2: what we're doing here is filling a hole that Jordan
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: has left, which is the relationship between Avianda and Men
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 2: has to be repaired in a way so that they
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: can be sister wives durand and not murder each other. Right, right,
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: Like that is a hole that Jordan did not touch.
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 2: He built a relationship between min and Elaine, He built
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: a great relationship but on a nice relationship between Elane
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: and Avienda. But he built nothing between men and Avienda.
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: Who has two very straightforward, warrior knife wielding women who
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: don't take bullshit? Right, Like, you think they get along
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: just fine, but they struggle.
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: They're too similar.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the strong personalities conflict in an interesting way.
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Plus, Avianda has been in a very insecure place
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: for a lot of their relationships. So when she does
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: come back as a wise one two men and say hey,
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: I want to revisit that conversation, she's going to be
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: operating from a much more grounded place. And I think
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: I think they'll discover that they do like each other
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: quite a bit. And it's one of those like nice
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: pieces of the outrigerous series that would have just been
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: nice to just be like, their ultimate coming to a
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: very good understanding would have been a very nice arc
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: to read.
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, give me more of all of this, right, Like,
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: I am not happy that there's no sequel to the
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: Wheel of Time, right, yeah. I would love to read
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: more about all of these characters, even if it's just
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 2: through cameos and references and like, you know, oh yeah,
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 2: King Lamb, he ruled in peace for you know, fifty
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 2: years before he you know, retired and his wife is
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: now Cod's you know, basically Codswayn who travels.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: Around you know, Codswayn, but with a cooler name.
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: Being Badass, being bad ass.
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, totally.
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even if it's just lines like that, I would
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 2: have loved stuff like that, but yeah, you know that
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 2: is what it is.
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh yeah, all I've got left is the readout.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: The readout, Yeah, all right, I will do that.
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: Then Amis moved off to run with the other wise ones.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: Aveanda shook off her stupor her determination returning. Her mistake
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: must have been more profound than she had thought. Amis's
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: punishment was an indication of that. She opened the bag
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: and glanced inside. There were three little, empty algoed bags
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: inside to help with the separation, and thousands of tiny
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: seeds nearly engulfed them. This punishment was meant to be seen,
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: meant to bring her shame. Whatever she'd done. It was offensive,
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: not just to the wise ones, but to all around her.
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: If even if they, like Avianda herself, were ignorant of it,
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: that only meant she had to be more determined.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: Tree and the determination is counterproductive. Yeah, I'm really gonna
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: bug her down and do all these punishment. It's as
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 2: hard as I can.
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: No, No, that's not no, it's not the assignment, no stop, it's.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: You really need to get read all the instructions that say,
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: don't do this test. Just write a smiley face on
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 2: the top.
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: Uh huh uh huh. Yeah, she's definitely yeah.
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, read all questions first, and the last question is
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: don't do any of the previous questions and you'll get
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: a hundred.
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: She's absolutely failing that test.
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: And she's totally failing that tests. She's writing every answer
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: down in order as she goes through, and then she
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 2: gets to the bottom and someone goes, hey, you just
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: had to say you were a wise one, and we
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: would have let you stop taking the test at any time.
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 1: It's a good lesson for us all to take in
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: our lives. You know, sometimes you should just assume the
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: authority because no one is actually going to give.
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 2: It to you. You do have to take it, combined
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: with the saying better to ask forgiveness than permission sometimes, right,
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: and that's where you just do you take the authority
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 2: and like if you if you shouldn't have, you will
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: have to ask for forgiveness.
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you don't take just any authority on
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: a whim. You think about it, You assess your learning,
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: you understand where you exist in space and relation to
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: other people, and then you make a reasoned choice. But
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: you stand on that because it's reasoned. It's you don't
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: have to wait for permission.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: Best choice with the information you have available at the time.
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, at the end of the day, you are
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: your own best authority. Like, particularly in this world, we
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: don't seed authority to people unless.
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: They take it, like, not seed authority, get it the
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: seeds that she's counting authority mean that.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: But okay, there we go. We're gonna just end this
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: episode on that fantastic pun.
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: Oh you're punny and you don't even know it. That's great,
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: all right, Well, thanks for joining us. See you guys next. Time.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 2: Really appreciate everybody who's joining us for this journey on
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 2: these Sanderson books. Uh, news Spring. We definitely plan on
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: doing new Spring app but not till after these books.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 2: We've agreed that that's kind of how you restart the wheel, right,
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: Like you get to the end of these books, then
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: you go, oh, you know, I want to read the
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 2: pre and then you get the prequel and you're like, oh,
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 2: you want to read after that the Eye of the
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 2: World right in order. So there was a couple of
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 2: other times when we couldn't have We could have done
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: new Spring, like after book five, but I was not
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: organized enough at that point to consider it. And then
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: again I think after book eleven, and we discussed doing
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: it after book eleven, but I think we just that's
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: when me and Radio sat down and we're like, you
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: know what, it's better off if we just put it
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: at the end. That's when we both read it. Is
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: we read it after Memory of Light, and to us,
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: that's just a really good way to put the turning
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 2: of the wheel and have it turnover again and restart
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: the timeline. And I read it got up and left me.
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 2: So now I don't know what to do She's like,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: let's dig into this book, but I'm leaving, so it's
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 2: just on you. Even though she's got to read in
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: the Nature of Pain. I guess I could read it
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: in while I wait, I did not get the radon
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 2: testing done because I have a garage that is ground level.
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: It's like a foot underground and it's got a garage
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 2: door and a back door, and I'm not really worried
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: about radon levels building up in that space. It's got
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: plenty of ventilation. There's nothing underground. Yeah, no basement, no basement,
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: just a garage. So yeah, I can tell you a
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 2: little bit my house while wait, wait, my garage is
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: on the first floor, so it's definitely one of those
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 2: first floor garage goes to the length of the house,
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: so it's like long enough for two cars, and then
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 2: there's like a mudroom with stairs leading up. First floor
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 2: is a decent sized kitchen with a little island living
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 2: room with a gas fireplace, and sort of dining room area.
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 2: It's kind of one long shotgun area a long, narrowish house,
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: and then stairs leading up to the second and then
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 2: there's a little half bath off the kitchen, and then
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 2: stairs go up to the second floor, which is two
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: bedrooms two in. Each bedroom has its own bathroom with
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 2: washer and dryer in between the two bedrooms, which I'm
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: very excited about because right now I go. I just
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 2: got back from the laundry mat. That's why I was
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: almost late to this recording because it's the freaking laundry mat.
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 2: So I'm so excited to not have to do the
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 2: laundry mat anymore. Oh my god, I cannot freaking wait
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: to do my own laundry. Gas stove and one of
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 2: the things I am worried about is the gas stove
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: does not have ventilation over it. There is no hood,
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 2: so I will have to open a window and or
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: install ventilation, which doesn't look that difficult there is. The
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: stove is right next to the wall, so I'd have
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: to go through one cabinet to the wall to the outside.
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 2: So I'm pretty sure it's only one hundred amp. I
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 2: don't think it's a it's not that big of a house.
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 1: Having a hood sucks, like having a hood is really credible.
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not excited about not having a hood, especially
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: with gas fireplace or gas stove.
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, for sure, just for regular cooking, but
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 1: especially with gas. Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan of
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: not having gas, even though I know it's better for
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 1: cooking in some respects. I'm just such a big fan
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: of not having gas in my house.
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 2: Like, we're just gonna have to there's a big window
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 2: over the kitchen sink, so that'll just have to be
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 2: open whenever we're cooking.
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: So there's systems you can apply to make that connection
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: between stove and window a little more tubular.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: Seeah, I think the only right now there's a there's
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 2: a built in microwave above the oven as well, which
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 2: usually eat that.
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what ours is, and it's like that's our
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: next kitchenerymodel upgrade is like we need a real hood
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: that does not involve a microwave taking up most of
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: the space. Like we technically have a hood, but it
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: sucks and a microwave is why.
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: So I can see that being an upgrade is taking
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: out that microwave, replacing it with a hood, yeah, and
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 2: just having a microwave on the counter because I don't
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 2: fing I barely use a microwave, right.
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 1: We use it to heat up water and to heat
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 1: up drinks and to soften butter reheating food occasionally.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: And I gotta tell you the best thing about my
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: current rental is that I have an induction stove, because
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 2: induction is that good. Oh my god, it's amazing.
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: With How is it with cast iron?
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 2: Amazing? Cast iron? Is it if it's magnetic?
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: How is the stove with cast iron?
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: Like?
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: Is the stove surface like harmed?
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 2: I've been using it for okay, there's no problem.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: That's been what we've been worried about. It's like, would
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: we have to switch stove.
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: Normal glass stoves. Here's my issue. Normal glass stoves, you
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 2: are heating up the glass. The glass gets red hot,
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: and that's what heats up the pan. So shit burns
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: on there, and the glass is so hot I think
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 2: it scratches easy. Right, With the induction, you're not heating
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 2: up the glass. You're heating up the pan directly. You're
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: skipping the glass, which means the glass only usually gets
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 2: up to the boiling point of water because usually you're
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: not really cooking anything much hotter than water, right, And
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: so the glass only gets up to two hundred degrees,
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: not red hot, and so the glass is so much
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: stronger and less likely to scratch. With the induction stove and.
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were just worried that
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: we'd have to give up our cast and and I
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: was like, that's that's a non negotiable. We're not doing that.
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: And by the way, yes, I do have an electric
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 2: kettle to boil water. However, I also have a stove
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 2: kettle on the induction stove because it is so goddamn
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 2: fast compared to any other method, because I can put
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 2: all two hundred and twenty volts of power from my
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 2: induction stove into the kettle. It doesn't go into a pan,
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: it doesn't go into the glass surface. It literally heats
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: up the metal surface of the kettle, which the water
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 2: sucks up, you know, cause it's got one hundred percent
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 2: contact surface. I can boil you know, a couple of
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 2: cups of water in you know, ninety seconds. I mean,
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 2: it's crazy how fast it is. You turn it on
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: and you see the bubbles almost instantly, Like it is
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: so much better than it's better than gas, it's better than,
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 2: way better than any kind of electric stove I've ever used. Now,
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 2: I will say the controls on my stove suck. They're touched,
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 2: They're terrible. The controls are awful, terrible, hate them, no good,
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 2: very bad controls. The induction aspect of it is amazing.
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, lilig. I know we're not micro riving water to drink.
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: My husband micros water for baking because he needs to
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 1: bring it up to a very specific temperature, so he
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: will microf water for baking. We're not talking about microdriving
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 1: water to boil tape. We have an electric kettle. We
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: are reasonable people.
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 2: I would still use boil water and then like add
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: cold water to get it to temp.
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: I think, well, yeah, I am not the baker of
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 1: the household.
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 2: My mother made her water in the microwave for tea
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: my whole life. That's what I was used to. You know.
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons why Americans don't have
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 2: electric kettles and the British do is that we do
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: have a different voltage system and it does take quite
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 2: a bit longer for us to boil water in our kettles.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: We've had our electric kettle so long that the plastic
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 1: casing aer on the top is starting to crack and leak,
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: and like the lid broke off the other day, Like
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: the part where the lid swings up like it broke
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 1: that we've had it.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: So long time to replace it.
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is good to know because literally our
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: stove and hood and my career whole situation, Like that's
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 1: what we're upgrading next. Like first we have graded our
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: refrigerator and then we did the dishwasher. Next up is
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: the cooking appliance. So this is good to hear that
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 1: induction works well with cast iron.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: If I ever have a choice between induction, gas or
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: any sort of electric, I will pull the cord on induction,
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: even if it cost twice is much like I can't
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: tell you what a difference it makes for cleaning stuff
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: up because you get nothing burns on anywhere.
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 1: For speed, for that does appeal to me at burnt.
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: And also then just all the studies coming about out
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 2: about how gas really does produce nasty hydrocarbons unburned ship
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: into your house that you need to vent Like it
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 2: is a problem and we are not dealing with it
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 2: and not talking about it the way we should be. Yeah,
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 2: I guess if you have a pacemaker, induction is a
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 2: bad idea.
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that would be bad for my health
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 1: monitor insurance. But that's that's a good recommendation.
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is that's all. And then I will
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 2: say that, like I said, my my coworker was looking
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 2: at buying a stove. I recommended the induction, but I said,
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: make sure you get the ones with physical dials. And
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: he said, especially because his wife has some mobility issues.
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: So okay, yeah, interfaces are interfering in faces.
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: So he and they he said that one works great.
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: So he was looking between the two models, the one
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 2: that was touch screen and the one that was physical dials.
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 2: Get the one with physical.
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: Dials, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have like the little
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: little buttons that like go up in like just some
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 1: arbitrary number system and it's very like nonlinear and stupid,
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 1: and like we would love just I was just ranting
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 1: to Brandon the other day about how I would love
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 1: just simple fucking reastat. He doesn't need to be this
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: whole complicated song and dance of turning off and turning
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: on and that's just get me a fucking resistor, right,
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: I will control it. I'm a fucking human.
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 2: I'm smart, yes, no, And I was saying the house
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 2: I'm moving into one of the downsides, you know, there's
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 2: I'm buying in at the lower tier. Right. So the
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 2: house is of course going to have some downsides, And
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 2: one of the downsides is the water heater, the furnace,
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: and the air conditioner are all you know, basically twenty
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 2: years old and we'll probably need replacing relatively soon. So
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 2: I have to save money for that because they're going
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 2: to die on me. But that does give me a
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 2: chance to do things like install a heat pump water heater.
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 2: Nice because if I have to replace the air conditioner.
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 2: The difference between an air conditioner that's a heat also
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 2: a heat pump so it can heat your place up
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 2: as well as cool it down, is really really small.
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: And because of where we live in the Pacific Northwest,
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 2: we don't live in a place where it really gets
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 2: that cold, and so a heat pump can really be effective.
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 2: And I have, you know, it's like a gas furnace,
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 2: and why not, Like, if I do have to replace
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 2: the AC and the furnace, why not replace it with
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 2: one thing that can do both, right, Yeah, And that's
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: where I come from the you know, hey, if you're
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 2: not angry, you're not paying attention, right, Like, there's so
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 2: much going on in the world that's just injust and
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 2: we just got done with our talk about climate change
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: and how screwed we are.
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 1: Well, that's different kinds of anger, right, I was thinking
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 1: more of the just like you disagreed with me, said,
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: now I'm going to be loud and break things sort
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: of anger.
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 2: But to me, those come from the same place, because I, well, yes, yes,
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 2: and this because I come from a place of saying
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 2: I've done the research on this. I believe I am right,
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 2: and I know you're wrong. And there's an anger for
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 2: me that associates with people who were like, I know
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 2: you're wrong and you're the fact that you're not seeing
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 2: this makes me very angry, even if right they So
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 2: I just don't believe that people are being genuinely I just, literally,
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 2: in my soul cannot believe people are genuinely seeing things
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: accurately and arguing the opposite way I am. And it
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 2: makes me mad as hell. But I understand the toxic
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: that's not toxic at all. That's not hard, not at all.
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 2: But my reaction to it, which was to get in
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: their face and yell at them and point a finger
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: and tell them that they're wrong, was toxic. Right, Okay, Right, So,
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: like there's a difference in your reaction versus the feeling.
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 2: So that's that's the difference I was trying to get to.
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: It's not the emotion, it's it's the outward expression.
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 2: Of it, exactly, exactly, exactly.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that. I think that the andrew
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 1: Tastes of the world are operating from the same well
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 1: of anger. I think they're just assholes. I don't think
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 1: that their anger is nearly as well founded as like
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: being angry that people are in denial of basic facts
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: like the fact that the climate is fucked.
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 2: No. No, it's probably more to do with their anger
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 2: angry that they don't get things that they want right,
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 2: that society doesn't operate in a way that they think
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 2: that it should, that women aren't obligated to interact with
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: them in ways that they think they should. Right, there's
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 2: a certain level of I am entitled to this, and
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 2: therefore I have anger about it. I think that's where
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 2: they're operating from.
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: You think that's the same anger as.
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 2: No, Well, I mean it's anger's anger, right.
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: Like, Oh, I don't think so. I think there's at
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 1: least two.
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: Kinds, righteous anger and envious anger.
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, righteous anger and being a shitty little pissant who
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 1: can't stand aud other people exist. I don't think that
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: that comes from the same place as righteous anger. I
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: just I refuse to share the righteous anger well with
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 1: these shitheads, like no, they can go get their anger
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: from a different, shallower, more arsenic, contaminated.
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 2: Well, they feel the same to me, because I've experienced both.
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 2: You know, I've definitely had had both. The I mean,
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 2: I'm a white man, right like, there was a point
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 2: in my life.
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 1: I've never felt entitled to someone else's existence.
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 2: I would be lying if I say I hadn't, right Like,
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 2: I was raised in a certain way by certain people
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 2: in a certain place, and I've gotten better. But I
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 2: can't say I've always been, you know, not felt entitled
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 2: like I certainly have at various points in my life.
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 2: And I don't you know, but I've also then come
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 2: around through the side and felt righteous anger. And they
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 2: feel the same. And it's crazy to me they feel
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 2: the same. They shouldn't. They shouldn't.
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 1: They shouldn't.
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 2: But you think you're being wronged in both situations, and
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 2: the anger comes from what you feel like the world
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 2: is wrong you either because people are doing things that
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 2: are wrong or you are being wronged as a person
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 2: who is not getting what you deserve.
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 1: Wow, well, that's that's an upsetting piece of information. I'm
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: trying to ingest. Thank you for sharing.
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 2: But if it helps me understand a certain level of
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 2: anger and a certain level of reaction in people and
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: gives me some I'm not going to say sympathy because
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not sympathetic to that reaction.
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 1: Empathy.
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 2: Empathy, Yeah, it makes me go, oh okay, yeah, I
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 2: understand that you're feeling that way, and then it feels real.
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 2: But I need you to understand that it's not something
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 2: you deserve and that you need to control your anger
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 2: around that.
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: I guess it's just also like what a privileged fucking
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 1: bubble you must live. And if that's the worst thing
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 1: that's ever happened to you, if that's the most anger
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 1: making thing you've ever experienced, if you've never experienced a
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: really difficult, angry making thing like.
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 2: I No, I mean, but you can't. You can't say
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 2: that just because they feel angry about that doesn't mean
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 2: they haven't experienced other actual injustices. People just can't tell
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 2: the difference. Our brains are fucked up. Radio.
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: I am very I feel like I'm a person who
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 1: understands I'm so angry all the time. I've been angry
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 1: my whole life. My reputation as a little kid was
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 1: the angry one. Like, I just, how is this a
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: whole aspect of anger that I've never even like stumbled.
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 2: Across like I've I mean, because you, I mean, it's
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 2: the same thing the Liligions pointing out, and we should
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 2: cut most of this, by the way, but or at
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 2: least put it in the end of the episode. But
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 2: Liligion's pointing out that you know the feeling of being
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 2: wronged as a neurodivergent person, like I'm not being treated fairly, right, yeah,
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 2: because I'm neurodivergent. What you view as fairness influences that
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 2: emotion a lot, and neurotypical people see fairness one way,
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 2: nor a divergent peoples it another way. And narcissists see
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 2: it in an entirely third way, right, And they think
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 2: what they deserve is way above and beyond anything you
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 2: think you would deserve and what you would think is fair.
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 1: I don't like any of this. Let's get back to
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 1: things worth recording.
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but you don't want to go on a
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 2: nice long examination of male anger, and it's been long enough.
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: This is upsetting. I'm sorry to all the men out there.
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: This is a terrible, awful burden you're carrying around fucking
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: nothing burger that's giving you all heart attacks.
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 2: How dare the world not come? Don't conform to my desires?
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 2: It's really unfortunate.
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 1: I'm just like I I can't take people seriously whose
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: biggest whose biggest reason for being angry is that I
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: don't see myself as their property. Like I'm just sorry,
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna laugh at you. Yeah, yeah, Like no, my
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: anger over like murders of black and brown people in
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 1: the street with no fucking consequences, is not fucking comparable.
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 1: It's just not like, get the fuck out, But I accept.
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's the difference. It's the the
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: false assumption that there is a difference between big T
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: and little T trauma, right, Like there isn't. You have
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 1: the experiences you have, and they are as the most
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: intense experiences you've ever had, regardless of how they stack
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 1: up to other people's, they're what happened to you.
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 2: It's why you can't compare pain levels either among people right, Yeah,
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 2: Oh well I'm hurting it at seven? What are you
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 2: hurting at Well, mine's a nine. I'm clearly hurting more
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 2: than you, right, Like. That sort of thing just doesn't
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 2: work because people have chronic pain. People have, you know,
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 2: different reactions to different pains and different parts of their body.
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 2: You know, surgery can feel different than an implant, which
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 2: can feel different than you know, fucking bone disease, right Like,
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know. The pain is so unique and different
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 2: from person to person.
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, psychological pain is exactly as complicated and confusing an
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 1: individualized its physical.
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 2: Pain, if not more so.
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: If not more so, well, that was all very good
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 1: to get out, but it will be cut or put
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 1: at the end. I don't know.
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, cut down significantly and then maybe put it. It
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 2: might be.
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's good for people to hear this shit get aired,
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 1: but it is not relevant to the book.
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 2: No, adam is not necessary.
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 1: Please rate and review us on your podcast app, and
• 2:15:34
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• 2:15:39
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• 2:15:42
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• 2:15:45
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