Latest / Mud & Rib Podcast / Connecting, Part 2: Firelighters — Trusting God in the Dark

Transcript

Connecting, Part 2: Firelighters — Trusting God in the Dark · Mud & Rib Podcast

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everybody.
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  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Mud and Rib Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're glad to have you back with us.
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  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is about love, life, and leadership, and we are on part two of connecting.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Last time we talked about connecting.
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  SPEAKER_00: Things that rob us from connecting.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking about connecting, but we're talking about urges that rob us from connecting.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what was our topic last time?
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  SPEAKER_00: So it was how that we,
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  SPEAKER_00: when we have a core agenda of city building,
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  SPEAKER_00: wanting to build a name for ourselves,
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  SPEAKER_00: how that robs us from connecting with God and other people.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then today we're going to be talking about fire lighting or a fire starter.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so just to kick us off, I want to read something for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: So...
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  SPEAKER_01: Could it happen in your relationships?
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  SPEAKER_01: What would it take to release the power God has placed in your heart
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  SPEAKER_01: toward just one other person in your life?
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  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps a distant cold wife that you've not been able to reach?
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  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a neglectful?
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  SPEAKER_01: Neglecting husband who thinks he's loving you well and hasn't a clue
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  SPEAKER_01: that your heart is aching for something more, something different.
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  SPEAKER_01: It might be a son or daughter who has trouble making friends,
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  SPEAKER_01: a teenager who won't communicate,
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  SPEAKER_01: an adult child who has sealed their heart so you cannot touch it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or it could be a friend, a person you know that is struggling.
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  SPEAKER_01: Releasing the power of God through our lives into the hearts and souls
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  SPEAKER_01: of others requires that we both understand and enter into a kind of relating
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  SPEAKER_01: that only the gospel makes possible, a kind of relating that I call connecting.
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  SPEAKER_01: This kind of relating depends entirely on deep fellowship with Christ and
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  SPEAKER_01: then spills over onto other people with the power to change their lives,
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  SPEAKER_01: not always on our timetable or in ways we expect, but as a sovereign spirit moves.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is from Larry Crabb, the author of Connecting.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so, you know, it's real important.
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  SPEAKER_00: For us as followers of Christ to know that he's made it possible for us
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  SPEAKER_00: to live out relationships with oneness.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've talked a lot about that in marriage,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also in our community and in our relationship
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  SPEAKER_00: and even our everyday work setting, our second and third relationship.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, spaces,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's homework,
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  SPEAKER_00: play, which typically, you know, first space is home, second space is work.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know a lot of people now work at home.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then third space would be those places that we hang out for fun
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  SPEAKER_00: and entertainment kind of thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: But can we see relationships in those spaces where we learn how to connect?
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  SPEAKER_00: We can't control other people,
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  SPEAKER_00: but those of us that are followers of Christ should have a vertical connection
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  SPEAKER_00: with God and a horizontal connection with others.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think we do a real good job of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this series is calling us to that vision of connecting,
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  SPEAKER_00: which we just read from Larry Crabb,
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  SPEAKER_00: that it is possible,
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  SPEAKER_00: that the gospel makes it possible,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also being aware that each of us kind of have behaviors or pulls or urges
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  SPEAKER_00: that rob us of that connecting.
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  SPEAKER_01: That makes me think about when I was working,
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  SPEAKER_01: how often people that were Christians would try to keep that part
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  SPEAKER_01: of their life separate from work because they wouldn't really connect with people at
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  SPEAKER_01: that deep level.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I just found it to be the opposite.
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  SPEAKER_01: I had a job where it was a human resources job.
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  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people would say in human resources,
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  SPEAKER_01: you have to be diplomatic and you shouldn't at all share your faith in that setting.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I never forced that on people,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it gave me such opportunity to connect with people when they came in,
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  SPEAKER_01: had hard things going on in their life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I can totally see how this would make a difference in our workplaces.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And being aware.
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  SPEAKER_00: Of the type of things that actually can keep us from connecting to people.
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  SPEAKER_00: Awareness is a great start.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about that last time,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we need to be aware of our shortcomings and the urges that rob us
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  SPEAKER_00: of connecting.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we have to turn from them and choose the connecting that the gospel makes possible.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what this whole series is really all about.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk a little bit about connecting in community.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it says that I mean, we know that it's through community that we connect.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's through these places,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's also through a connection with God, but also we have to engage with people.
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  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk a little bit about that?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, we were created for community.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the essence of who God is,
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  SPEAKER_00: and the Godhead is Father, Son,
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  SPEAKER_00: and Holy Spirit,
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  SPEAKER_00: the three in one,
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  SPEAKER_00: the essence of God is community,
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  SPEAKER_00: communing together, and And he wants us to learn to connect with him.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as a result, then that frees us to connect more effectively with others.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we were made for community.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as husband and wives,
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  SPEAKER_00: as image bearers from our home, that's the beginning expression of community.
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  SPEAKER_00: Even the scripture says that that's a picture of Christ's love for the church is how
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  SPEAKER_00: a husband should love his wife and vice versa.
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  SPEAKER_00: But also we have the community of our family,
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  SPEAKER_00: community of faith,
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  SPEAKER_00: and our faith community that should reflect this gospel message as well
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  SPEAKER_00: and this type of deep connection and the oneness.
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  SPEAKER_00: John 17 talks about the oneness that we should possess together and In community
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  SPEAKER_00: as one global church,
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  SPEAKER_00: but living it out locally in a local expression of being family,
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  SPEAKER_00: ecosystem, if you will.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I've encountered a lot of people that say that I don't need community.
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  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it, I think, stems from being hurt in community.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so how does that affect this whole idea of fire letters, fire starters?
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  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk about Every one of these...
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  SPEAKER_00: We talked about city builders last time, and we talk about fire lighters this time.
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  SPEAKER_00: And maybe we should go into kind of what we mean by fire lighters, what a fire lighter is.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure, that'd be good.
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  SPEAKER_00: And just kind of start from that perspective.
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  SPEAKER_00: The image,
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  SPEAKER_00: the prophetic image of fire lighting comes from Isaiah 50,
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  SPEAKER_00: 10 through 11 is where we get the image.
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  SPEAKER_00: We see the principles of it throughout Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's the whole idea of when dark times and difficult times come,
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  SPEAKER_00: will we trust the Lord and trust that his story is good during those dark times?
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  SPEAKER_00: Or will we light our own fire in the form of plans, etc.?
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the fire lighter is the planner.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's not that there's anything wrong with plans.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just like last time we said, there's nothing wrong with building things.
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  SPEAKER_00: God created us to be co-creators.
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  SPEAKER_00: But when we try to build stuff on our own,
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  SPEAKER_00: literally in rebellion to God,
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  SPEAKER_00: trying to reach to God without trusting God,
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  SPEAKER_00: then that's where city building is a bad thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it robs us from deep connections because we treat people wrong.
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  SPEAKER_00: More transactionally.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so this is different, but still there's the same robbing us of connecting.
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  SPEAKER_00: So here's the Isaiah 50 passage.
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  SPEAKER_00: Who among you fears the Lord?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's Isaiah 50.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
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  SPEAKER_00: Isaiah 50, 10 and 11, I believe.
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  SPEAKER_00: Who among you fears the Lord and obeys the word of his servants?
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  SPEAKER_00: Let him who walks in the dark,
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  SPEAKER_00: see that dark image,
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  SPEAKER_00: who has no light, Trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when dark times come and dark nights of the soul come, what will you do?
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  SPEAKER_00: Just like when we said when you're in the wilderness as the city builder,
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  SPEAKER_00: when you're in the wilderness, what will you do?
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  SPEAKER_00: Will you trust God and his good story?
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  SPEAKER_00: Or will you try instead of being a wandering nomad, trusting God and following his ways?
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  SPEAKER_00: Or will you try to build your own city?
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is when you're entering into dark times,
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  SPEAKER_00: will you trust God or will you try to light your own fires?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because this is what verse 11 says.
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  SPEAKER_00: But now all of you who light fires and provide yourself with flaming torches,
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  SPEAKER_00: go walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is what you'll receive from my hand.
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  SPEAKER_00: You will lie down in torment.
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  SPEAKER_01: So basically he's saying that they are in dark times.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_01: And apparently they have decided they're not going to trust God.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're going to light their own fires themselves through these flaming torches.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he's saying, okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: you go and you do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep, you do that and the consequences will be disastrous.
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  SPEAKER_00: But you just go ahead and do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the key image from Isaiah 50.
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  SPEAKER_00: Of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: Proverbs 16 talks a lot about plans and purposes and talks about how
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  SPEAKER_00: that our plans can And it leads to death.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's the same thing in Proverbs 16 is laying out the principles
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  SPEAKER_00: that we see Isaiah talking about as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that this is a super strong urge for me as far as like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not one that just creates a plan for everything,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I do tend to want to create plans.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is a little more you, like the last one, the city building is more me.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is probably a little more you.
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  SPEAKER_01: I always say, I've got to do something.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got to make a plan.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think the thing that's, I mean, I've got to get out my calendar.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got to get out a notepad.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got to get out something to plan out the year.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got to make a plan.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so this is definitely something that I can relate to.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you find yourself fretting or worrying or being occupied by the thought, am I right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Am I right with things?
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  SPEAKER_01: Not so much that as though that what I would say,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think I do more is the plan helps me get order to the chaos.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so used to, I would trust just in the plan.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I would look to the plan as the solution.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now I find planning to be helpful because But I'm okay if
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: the plan doesn't go like I thought it was going to go.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you're mature.
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  SPEAKER_00: So a fire liner is one of the preoccupying questions is, am I right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's a commitment to being right rather than redemptive.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you're walking in the light, you're walking in redemption.
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  SPEAKER_00: When you're walking in desiring to light your own fires,
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  SPEAKER_00: you care more about being right than being redemptive.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so you'll create religious structures,
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  SPEAKER_00: sin management,
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  SPEAKER_00: all kinds of things to keep you Rather than trusting God and living on the edge
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  SPEAKER_00: of falling,
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  SPEAKER_00: you trust in your plans because you feel like they're more secure
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  SPEAKER_00: and they're not near as scary as trusting God.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of the preoccupying question.
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  SPEAKER_00: The deep fear is I don't want to have to face any kind of confusion.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in order for us to really walk with God in the darkness, there's going to be confusion.
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  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I feel that way right now.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's just things that are not clear.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so it feels confusing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And my first response is to go and do something,
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  SPEAKER_01: make a plan for how I'm going to fix the confusion.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're not answering.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to do something about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that true?
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even think about Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, here he's given all this promise.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's given Sarah.
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  SPEAKER_00: But we're getting old and the promise ain't happening.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they're not just getting old.
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  SPEAKER_01: They were old.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_00: They were already old.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so then what happens?
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  SPEAKER_00: Sarah says, bro, we need to take this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is not happening.
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  SPEAKER_00: And here's my, you know, here's my plan.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's what Hagar made.
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  SPEAKER_00: Here's my immigrant mistress or our servant girl.
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  SPEAKER_00: You take her and you start the family this way.
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  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
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  SPEAKER_01: What?
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  SPEAKER_01: She blamed him later.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it turns into a big deal, hot
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  SPEAKER_00: mess, right?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what happens when we don't believe God's story is good and we create our own plans.
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  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, we get uncomfortable and we get confused.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we try to create clarity rather than letting the Lord bring clarity.
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  SPEAKER_00: We try to create clarity with what?
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  SPEAKER_01: Our plans.
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  SPEAKER_00: Our plans, our firelighting, our plans.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that just leads to disasters.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or we get angry in part to say, you know, agree with me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what will work.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: when we're in the darkness,
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  SPEAKER_00: we get mad at God and other
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  SPEAKER_01: people and start saying, tell me what will work.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, give me a plan.
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  SPEAKER_00: And God wants to be the plan and wants us to trust him.
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  SPEAKER_00: In those dark times.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's challenging.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying this stuff is easy.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is part of the suffering of walking through things in its heart.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is one thing that I've seen for me is that having seen God work through chaos
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  SPEAKER_01: in the past, let's just call it kind of a bank.
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  SPEAKER_01: I have a bank of Experiences with God where he has worked through the chaos
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  SPEAKER_01: when I've been willing to wait, be patient, not try to go out and make my own plans.
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  SPEAKER_01: Certainly it's okay to do some things to some level and thinking through things,
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  SPEAKER_01: but not running ahead.
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  SPEAKER_01: So whenever I'm tempted in the dark to want to...
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  SPEAKER_01: That's very much like the principle of precedence.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've seen the Lord deliver me from the claws of the bear and the mouth of the lion.
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  SPEAKER_00: He can certainly deliver me from you, you uncircumcised Philistine.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a lot of times where I've been able to go, okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm freaking out about over this,
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  SPEAKER_01: but there's been times that God has provided or done things that were much bigger
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  SPEAKER_01: than what I'm fretting about today.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that gives me the ability to lean into this history.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that's very good.
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  SPEAKER_01: But you have to start out somewhere.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what you're saying, what
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you have to start somewhere.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so in these dark times, we have to learn to trust God.
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  SPEAKER_00: And once you see God come through, then maybe it's easier.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's easier.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's easier sometimes.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to eat those words.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to take those back.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's easier because you have history to look back on.
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  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that what maturity is though?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Maturity is not so much that it's easier, but that you've been here before.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's probably a better one.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you have experience at handling this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so you maturely begin to trust God in the dark times rather than going with
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  SPEAKER_00: the knee-jerk plans.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we'll probably talk more about this,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I think it just,
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  SPEAKER_01: it requires us to take little steps of trusting God in small things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then as things get bigger and And bigger in our life that it's easier to trust
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  SPEAKER_01: the bigger things too.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what's coming out of this, what I'm thinking of, and I didn't plan this.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't thinking about this part.
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  SPEAKER_00: Is that you kind of see this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, you do see it.
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  SPEAKER_00: You don't kind of.
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  SPEAKER_00: You see this in Abraham's life is the more he grows.
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  SPEAKER_00: He grows as our father of faith because the more he improves at trusting
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  SPEAKER_00: that God's plan is good.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he messes up a lot along the way, just like we do.
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  SPEAKER_00: But he was faithful to go through with what he heard God say about Isaac.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And trusting that God will provide a lamb.
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  SPEAKER_00: God will provide something in this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I will obey him and believe that his story is good, even when it doesn't make sense.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we see him becoming our father of God.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me think of the verse about working out our salvation.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so part of this that we're talking about is that the darkness
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Nights of the soul that people walk through,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: darkness that we walk through, are opportunities to trust God.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also the temptation to trust ourselves by lighting our own fires,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: to creating our own plans.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so all of this is about learning to trust God.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Whichever urge you struggle with, the answer is to trust God.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, his strategy is different with each of those.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll talk about that along the way.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: We say God's strategy for dealing with a city builder is to take them out into
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: the wilderness and say,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: will you trust me in the wilderness to know I have a promised land for you?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I will be your promise.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I will be your promised land, even in the midst, and I am good.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then for the firelighters,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: his strategy is, I'm going to take you through dark nights of the soul.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And there's going to be times of darkness.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so during those times, we trust that my story is good and that I am the light.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so no matter what the urge,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: which one of these that you fall into, The answer really is all is trusting God.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: But God has different strategies to deal with different urges
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: that help us see breakthrough in our lives.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he's ultimately not doing this to punish us because the best thing for us is to trust him.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he loves us.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why he's doing that is to see us discover the freedom that he has for us,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: the good promises that he has
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: for us.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Since you say that I'm—and I know it's true,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: so I'm not arguing with you that it's true that I'm more like this.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any examples of things you've seen me do that would be firelighting in
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: the way I respond to things?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you communicated some of it.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's more about— Creating order and plans and strategies when times are dark
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: and uncomfortable and we don't have clarity,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: and then just jumping out there and making a plan rather than allowing God to bring
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: the clarity and the light is getting ahead of him and making plans.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sometimes I'm really good for a while at trusting God, but then I want to be in control.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my gosh, nothing's happening, so I want to be in control.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then we, a lot of religious systems...
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Are built around this sin management is basically creating religious systems
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: and do's and don'ts and trying to manage our sin rather than crucifying it
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: and trusting God to help us overcome it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of religious systems are created by this firelighting tendency.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: We even do it as parents.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: when our kids do certain things,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: we want to create all these rules around it to prop them up so
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: that they won't misbehave or break the rules.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like so many things,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: by doing that,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: we keep them from experiencing the pain that they need to experience in order
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: for them to grow and to change.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting because I think some of this urge...
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Can even be when others around us are going through dark nights.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: We want to give them a plan.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: We do.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Here's my advice in the plan that I want.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than trust God and watch you squirm and hurt and suffer, I would rather give you a plan.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, here, this worked for me, so let me give it to you.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or you should try all of these things that will make this right.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that goes back to the whole being uncomfortable, not wanting to be uncomfortable.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be uncomfortable,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: so I want you to have a plan because I don't want to have to watch you suffer.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are opportunities for false connection that comes out of this,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: like finding people who agree with us and dogmatically asserting the wisdom
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: of our understanding while judging others who see things differently.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that whole the religious system.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like we're right and we've created this system and we're critical
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: of everyone else who does differently comes out of us.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: This fire lighting.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And those are false connections that rob us of true deep connection with God and
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: with community because we create these fire lighting systems.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: That means we can trust the plans and the structure and the religious system rather
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: than trusting God.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that some people will attend churches that have more rules and
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because it feels safer to them?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think because it's been clearly defined,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: they know rather than living on the edge of falling,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: they would rather live in a rules and regulations system that seemingly seems
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: to keep them from falling.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: When it makes me think about if Jesus really is the greatest adventure of your life,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: and I believe that to be true,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then an adventure is not always something that's well planned out.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: What makes it an adventure is the unknown, the risk, things like that.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some people don't think that's true.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they think it's, I can have a great adventure with a plan.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when you think about adventures, that means they've done something new.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wild and untamed and all those things that maybe a rule follower would really have
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: a hard time with.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And living life on mission, nothing goes as you plan just about.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Never.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: that's funny because it reminds me,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Neil Cole talked about this with a church planting strategy.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: One of the guys that he'd kind of been mentoring,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: coaching, shows up with an inch thick church planting strategy.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And kind of this performance type of thing that's like,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: all right, this is the mission, vision, and values.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is how everything's going to work.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is what we're going to do.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is our philosophy of ministry, all that kind of stuff.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he takes it and throws it in the trash.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy just freaks out.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he basically,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: basically the moral of the story,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: the principle is, is nothing in living on mission goes the way that you think.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: You certainly can't write an inch thick, Right.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is, it looks good on paper.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: We've experienced that so much.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know we've said this before, but how many books have we read about church planting?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember after like book number 20 telling you,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: this just makes me so mad because it never talks about the ugly part of this
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: because this all,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, this can work to some degree, but it never works like this completely.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's...
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: What happens in our life is that things don't go as planned.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's good to have some plans.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: But again, the Lord orders our steps.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And will we sovereignly trust him during those dark times?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we enter into these times of darkness,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: what we need to do is to learn that we can trust him and we can ask,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: who can I trust?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Whom do I trust?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I trust in God.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: He is the way.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I am the light of the world.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that light can be trusted.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when dark times come, God's good story can be trusted.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: When we learn how to do that, we will connect with people far deeper and more effectively.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than becoming a community of Pharisees or Sadducees,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: we become a community of faith that reflects the love of Christ.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I believe that He is calling us to.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk a little bit about what would be next steps for someone.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you recognize that maybe your tendency is a firelighter, firestarter, firelighter.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it firestarter or firelighter?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Firelighter.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Firelighter.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I guess you could be a firestarter.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can also be starting a fire.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: If this is what your tendencies are, then what would be the steps that you, I mean, here I go.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm making a plan for you guys.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is hilarious.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm making a plan so you can try it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so that you can, yeah, this is ridiculous.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is so my nature.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: But what would be questions that we can,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that one question I saw in this,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: because we've looked at this before,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: is instead of immediately starting to try to fix it, ask what is God saying in this?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that has been a big change for me,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: is when there's chaos or when there's things going on
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: that make me feel uncomfortable with When I want to plan,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: instead of making the plan,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: asking the question, what is it that God is saying or doing in this?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just like we talked about with the city builder,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: we said being aware that this is your urge and a struggle.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Being aware of the demands that you will make on other people and of God in the midst of that.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And repenting of those things.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what we what we mean repenting is just simply changing our mind.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And agreeing with God,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: his good story and his goodness and learning to trust him and resist the impulse
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: of trying to fix it or plan it or build it.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said earlier, like we talked about.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: When you've had history of seeing God work through these things,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: being able to look back on those things.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I do think sometimes it's good to journal and it's good to write down,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: even if you have a prayers and answered prayers type of thing,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: to just be a faith builder to help you remember that God is good and he's faithful
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: in his story.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: the hard part is,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: is that there are some things that we can do in the world system
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: with this fire lighting and planning and these things that makes us,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: in the world's eyes, a key contributor.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we We're not saying that that's always wrong,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: but when it comes to a place where you're self-sufficient and you don't trust God,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: and when dark times happen,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: you trust in yourself and in your plans and in your systems, that is a problem.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: and that's so easy to do in our culture because I can go in Canva or online and find
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: a template for anything I need some structure for.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's so many ways to depend on myself and Well,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: really on the internet, but you know what I mean?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like to bend on myself for things rather than going to God.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's always a temptation.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: And our teaching centers today often do 10 keys, 12 steps, blah, blah, blah.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Recipe theology.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, recipe theology.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Recipe theology.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you follow this recipe, then your life will be better.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like treating the Bible as a...
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Basic instructions before leaving Earth.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a cool little saying, but the Bible is more than an instruction manual.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's a love letter.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's about being in intimacy with Him and knowing our identity, living in.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that leads to influence,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: which is what he wants to use us to portray his image as image bearers.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this stuff is connected to what we're talking about in Mud and Rib over
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: and over and over again in our experience of life, love, and leadership.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's connected.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And these urges will rob us of that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've talked about city building.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're fire lighting.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then the next things we'll talk about,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: the last two, will be white wall washing and well digging.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I look forward to talking about those.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody, thanks for joining us today.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're always happy to have you with us.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: We would love it if you would like, subscribe, write a review for us.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: It helps people to find us.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And until next time.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: God bless.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: God bless.
• 30:00
  [music]