Latest / One Voice Many Conversations / Crushing Strongholds #060 Special Guest Jennifer Chase- Rise Addiction Life Coach

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Crushing Strongholds #060 Special Guest Jennifer Chase- Rise Addiction Life Coach · One Voice Many Conversations

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to another great episode of Crushing Strongholds.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is a podcast where we turn pain into power, trauma into triumph, and a place where we get to expose the lives of the enemy.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we do that?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: We do that through sharing testimonies of people who have actually walked through and crushed strongholds of their own.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: And today I have an amazing guest that's gonna come on.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I I have to say, um, I can resonate so much with this lady that I think this is gonna be a wonderful conversation.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know that you all will enjoy it, and I know that we're gonna get so much out of it.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my guest today, she is a certified life coach with specializes in helping loved ones of addicts.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: And she also navigates through the chaos, the shame, the grief, and often uh often that comes with addiction.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: But not only does she life coach in this, she's also lived this, which is what what I love about crushing strongholds is because always behind the mask, there's always a story, and she gets to share that today.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: She gets to share how she overcame and battled and and now is rising up.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that because her actual website is called Rise.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Now that I just thought about that, and there was no pun intended there, but that was on purpose.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, wait, that's the name of her website.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is so cool.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: But she did, she right, she she rised up.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: So let's welcome in Jennifer Chase.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you, Jennifer, for and welcome to Crushing Strongholds.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm so so grateful to be here.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm excited to get to talk to you and and like I said, you know, in the in the intro that there are is a lot that we resonate with, and um as far as you know, a lot of likeness.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I want I, you know, I do have some couple questions, but why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself before I just dive in and start dissecting everything?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so uh for me it starts as a very young child.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: I am a product of addiction.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: So about four generations down my mom's side, and about four generations down my dad's side, sort of danced in the disease mostly of alcoholism.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I had a grandma that was an opiate addict in the 50s before that was kind of a thing to be.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: But for the most part, my family sort of danced in the disease of addiction and the roles that everybody took.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the women were the enablers, the rescuers, and the men were the alcoholics.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that was true for me with my dad.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: My dad was an alcoholic.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I have two older siblings.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and what I can say is really when I was a child, it felt as though they really liked to hang out with one another, but I was always the odd man out.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: I was always the little sister.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: I was always the one that that I didn't necessarily feel like they liked me too much.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: And my mom, uh, I don't know if any of you guys can relate to this, but I have a mom that if she spoke English, I spoke German, right?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: We have never a day in our lives felt the same, had the same emotions, we don't communicate the same.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so there was a comma denominator to all of these sort of relationships in my home.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that comma denominator was me, right?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like I was the problem.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: I was the one that, like, if I could just be a little something else, something other than what I was, then these relationships would be easier.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately, I'm also part of a statistic that says one out of every three little girl and one out of every six little boy that's sort of raised in that dynamic is being sexually abused.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I was being sexually abused by my mom's dad.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, again, there's a common denominator, right?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so I remember at the age of four, the first time that I barricaded that little girl into her bedroom with all of her record players and stuffed animals.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like at the age of four is when I started learning that isolation was the safest place for me.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like if I could just keep the outside world from getting into me, I was gonna be okay.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I think that the interesting thing about my family was from the outside looking in, I had a blessed childhood, right?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up upper middle class, uh, I had was afforded a lot of opportunities that some people hadn't, you know, weren't given in their life.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so people looking into my family thought it was perfect, but that was not what it felt like in the inside, right?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that made it even more confusing.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and if my mom wasn't my person, my dad was.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like I loved him, but he again was an alcoholic.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so the inconsistency of his behavior, I took on as a me problem.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think, you know, growing up, you and I talked about it a little bit before we hit the record button.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I was never going to be like the adults in my life.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I believed that their inability to break the chains of addiction as a hundred percent weakness.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like I had more courage in my pinky finger than they had in their whole bodies.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's I wouldn't have been able to tell you, was I gonna go to college?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: Was I gonna be a wife?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Was I gonna be a mom?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I wouldn't have been able to share any of that with you, but I would have been able to tell you, I am not going to become an alcoholic.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like I knew that, I knew I had the biology, I knew all of the things, and that was never gonna be me.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and unfortunately, January 2003, I was diagnosed with a hemorrhaging brain tumor and given about 12 hours to live.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: And when they removed that brain tumor, they caused nerve damage in my head.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so that led me on my path to chronic pain, which also led me on my path to opiates and the 14-year journey of an opiate addiction.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I became everything I said I wasn't gonna be.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, when I got sick, my kids were two and five.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: When I got sober, they were 18 and 21.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: And my kids lived every bit of the traumatic childhood.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I mean, they weren't they weren't being sexually abused by any means, but they were they were being raised by somebody in active addiction just like I was and just like my parents had been.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I became every bit who I wasn't and didn't want to be.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: And through that journey, um, when my son was a senior in high school, I found out that I had inadvertently become my son's drug dealer.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: And he had also chosen opiates as a solution to his trauma and his mental health and some of those other experiences that he had as a child.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I think my story is one of how this generational trauma thing happens, right?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Even with the intention of it not happening, but not only how we pass it on to generations, but then we we, you know, even with the the the what felt like an intentional effort to not have my children live this life, I passed the baton on, if you will, of addiction uh with my child.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and you know, getting sober, the truth is, you know, dealing with the shame of that has been a journey.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and I I'm not a smoke blower, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't blow smoke up anybody's, you know what.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: And and I've been sober for almost nine years.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: And there are still days when I wake up and just feel the weight of that tremendous amount of shame that I have.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, addiction has for sure been a journey that I unfortunately have been able to experience, you know, lots of different perspectives of.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I can say, well, I can say a lot to that.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing that, by the way, and being very transparent with your um your testimony there.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that um again, looking back on when we say to ourselves, we're not going to ever do that.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna live that lifestyle.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're for no, we we see we're seeing it with our own eyes, something that we don't want for ourselves, and yet we end up going down that path anyway.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and and the shame is really horrible.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I can relate with that because I felt the same way.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And like I said, with you know, my story a little bit, it's just that I I it was after my divorce before I started drinking.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: I never drank, I never, you know, I was good in high school.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was, you know, trying to be this kid that, you know, actually made it through and graduated high school because my parent or my mom anyway, I don't know, I don't know my dad, but she didn't make it past the ninth grade.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I was trying to, you know, make goals for myself that because I wanted to do something better.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I also wanted to make her proud of me, you know.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And um, even though, you know, even in her addiction, it it just never was gonna measure up and be enough.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: She would always just tell me, You're never gonna be good enough.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just so hard.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I'm gonna show you, I'm gonna show you, I'm gonna show you, you know.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: But it's devastating, you know.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I had my own kids, I remember how protective I was, and um to where I was almost like a crazed monkey because I was like, don't look at my kids, because I was like you, I was abused by my mom's dad.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I I didn't want, you know, my kids to be around certain people and certain things, and and somebody looked at my kid cross-eyed or in a weird manner, and I'm you know about to rip their head off.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was just kind of like a crazed monkey with it because I was so scared of it happening to my own kids.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was the one, like you said, I was the one who passed the baton to them.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, it it's just like, man, it is a generational problem.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: We don't even realize it that it's attached to us.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and there is there is spiritual and warfare that goes along with that biblically that says that these things are attached to us from birth, from literally from us being born, we are born with that attachment on us.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And until we recognize it, we can't we can't um get rid of it, we have to break that, we have to break the curse.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of the things that you're talking about that I think is so important for listeners to hear, if they're if if they have been, you know, this generational trauma piece, and and you spoke about it, and this is definitely part of my story, is because I felt so woefully underprotected as a child and and had so much trauma around that, and and that's where my worth came from, or lack thereof, and my not feeling valued because I didn't feel protected.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: I swung that pendulum so far over to the other direction.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and because I swung the pendulum to the other side, my children never had to learn how to do anything hard.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: I had every conversation with them, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't give them coping skills on how to deal with difficult situations or disappointment or failures or whatever else because my worth was now attached to whether my children were protected or not, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna be better than my parents were.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: That was the only goal.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so, but but what happened was I created just as much trauma on the other side of the pendulum as my parents did on the the other side, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that my children were overprotected and I was underprotected.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: And what you're talking about is healing comes when I choose to do the healing and become balanced, right?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: But but in generations where we've experienced this, we just generationally go from one spectrum to the other, right?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: So let's say you grew up, your kid, you grew up as like my child where you were overprotected, you're like, I'm not doing that, I'm not doing a helicopter mom.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: That was awful for me.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: I had the worst experience.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then we underprotect.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then the underprotect generation overprotects.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: And and that is how we continue to contribute to this sort of generational uh one of the reasons, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: We've got biology, we've got a lot of things uh that happened generationally, but I I do think that that's one of the things that um oftentimes as mom, we don't understand until hindsight.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: We don't understand until until we've reached the point where it's like we did some harm and we need to look to see where that harm stemmed from.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: And we realize it was because we didn't have any balance.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I I I've always said is, you know, unfortunately, our children, not one of them came with a handbook.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and neither did we, you know, and so our parents did what they did, and us as parents, we're gonna do what we do.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, we carry that baggage with us, and um sometimes that baggage gets dumped onto our our children, and then they have to carry it, you know, and and sometimes, you know, that's where a lot of our shame also comes from, I think, is because we know we've dumped some of our trash on them, and now we're trying to pick the trash back up.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to pick it up and we're trying to recover from it because we feel so bad.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I've had I've had really deep conversations.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really close with my children, and um, they've seen me just, you know, be on this yo-yo, you know, from but my childhood, they also know my my childhood was like a yo-yo.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was in and out of foster home since I was two.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't ever wanted most of my life.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then when I was wanted, it was out of convenience.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then it wasn't protected, wanted.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't protected at all.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: I had to protect myself.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was protecting my mom from her boyfriends that were abusing her and um trying not to get abused myself by you know, my mom being married six times, and it's just radical.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was just crazy.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so um people say, Well, I don't know how you turned out so good.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't, you know, I don't I don't take credit for any of that.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think that um, you know, I had my kids, and I think my kids are the reason I turned out the way I did.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: But it took them being adults and having a voice for themselves and me being willing to listen to their side of the story and not just my own, and that changed me.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um, them going, you know what, mom, this is this is what happened, this is what we went through when you were going through this.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: And man, did that open me up, and man, did it hurt.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: It stung so bad.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: I remember that pain of just going, man, I'm so sorry.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: I did not realize that this is what I was doing to you.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: I never wanted and they knew they knew how much I loved them.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: So they knew that it wasn't an intentional type of hurt or pain.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I made mistakes, you know, you know, as that parent, as that, like you said, that overprotective parent.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had to unleash them and let them live.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like you, you you know, you said you have to give them you you have to find that balance.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And they actually it's crazy, is it's funny, even though I raised them, um, it was almost like when they turned adults, they were turning around and raising me back.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was so weird.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh my gosh, but you guys are so smart.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: How did you guys get smart?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, because I raised you.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: No, you know, we would say that to each other.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: It'd be kind of funny.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my daughter one time gave me dating advice because I was running down the same path as my mom, just trying to find validation in in men, you know, and seeking, you know, love in all the wrong places, you know.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so she was like, Mom, you're gonna find something wrong with everyone that you meet.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Can't you just pick someone?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was being so picky, you know, and she's like, Everyone has issues, everyone, but your standards are too high.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, My standards are high because I'm trying to be pro protective.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Yeah, but you won't let nobody get close to you.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that was that was she was a teenager when she told me that, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I need therapy, you know, I need counseling.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: What's going on here?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're not supposed to be teaching me.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm supposed to be teaching yours, I'm supposed to be teaching you at 17.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it was like I said, I again the eye-opener.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I loved her for her honesty, and I've always taught my kids, you be open and be you be honest with people.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to sugarcoat stuff.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I've never been a sugar coater on anything, and and so I think that's something that's really helped our relationship.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I I always felt that trauma was um, you know, I always thought, man, do they really, you know, can they really forgive the stupid mistakes I've made?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that they have, because they show so so much tremendous love that I'm just blessed.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: I really am blessed.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: And um I'm thankful for that.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I know there are people out there that you know that we want to reach today.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that's what you're doing.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Your coaching program is is trying to reach those people that um they're sitting in the shame, they're sitting in the disappointment and the lack thereof of you know, you know, nobody's gonna understand where I'm coming from.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: But but actually people do understand.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: I understand.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: When you tell your story, I s I you know, it's like, man, I can I can relate 100% with every word you're saying.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you're doing your coaching, what what do you find is the hardest um part to tackle?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to give away your all your coaching skills because I want people if they need coaching, I want them to call you and get some help.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: So don't you know don't give away all your perks, but you know, like when we're when we're coaching people, we want to, you know, say, hey, sign up, come see me, I'll help you.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I want to also um direct people towards you because what you're doing is amazing.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell just by talking to you that you're very helpful with people.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: What is the one specific thing that you find that is the hardest for people in our situation to face?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's a great question.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think it's that the realization that I didn't cause my loved ones addiction, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like I mean, I I I definitely that I'm not talking about myself.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm talking about other people, right?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like I didn't cause my son to be an addict, but the realization that I think is the hardest is that I have contributed to the length of it.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: I have this dynamic, this dance floor, if you will, in our family, the way our family dances has contributed in some ways to this addiction.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the thing, and and I I believe you probably understand this.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, substance has never been the problem.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: Substance is not the problem.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: It is not the problem, it is the solution to the problem.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it oftentimes for those of us that choose it, it's the only coping skill we know, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's the only one that gives us the relief, the relief of pain, if you will, from this thing called trauma or experiences or whatever.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: But the truth is, one of the, you know, I I've met a lot of addicts.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: I used I worked in the field for six years and in the recovery field and in the trenches with addicts themselves.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say 9.5 out of 10 addicts that I've ever met will tell you that they felt like a square peg on a in a round hole in that family dance floor, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: And what they're trying to say to us is that we feel like the authentic version of us is not lovable, that you need me to be this ideal version of myself in order to be on this dance floor with you, in order to be loved, like, seen, valued.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: It feels as though I can't be my authentic self.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: And as a family, we've got to look at that.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: We've got to, I've got to be really honest with myself as a mom.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I can be like there were versions of times in my son's life that I absolutely wanted him to be round.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I wanted him to be round because that was what I thought the way society would view me.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I had less fear when he was round, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have to worry about his well-being as much or whatever the scenario was.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: It was about me.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted him to be round.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: And as we heal from this thing of addiction, like this dance floor has to change.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: We all have to be able to be our authentic versions and find real trust and rapport in that way in order for us to heal.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Now, as an addict, I tell loved ones all the time, like, I had one of two options when I got sober.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Either get on this same old dance floor that we've had all of these years, but I'm gonna be high because that's the only way I can do it.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: Or I'm gonna have to get off all the way, unless as a whole, we sit together and figure out what dance that we can create together, that we can all be the authentic part.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the hardest part for families, is oftentimes they're like, I'm not changing, I'm not the one with the problem.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: And and the mindset is flawed, right?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure you've heard that you know this is a family disease and it affects everybody.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And because it affects everybody, the change is going to have to come from everybody.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: And um and that's not to say that we are to blame for somebody's addiction, but if we really want peace, if we really want transcendence, if we really want to heal from this thing, we've got to look at how our participation to this dance has affected the dance as a whole.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's crazy.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I agree with with that exact comment that thinking that that's how we all have to mesh together in order to survive.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's really sad that um along this journey, when we go through it from either the physical or the sexual abuse, the the the drugs, the the alcoholism, um, you know, I you know, from LSD to heroin to um alcohol.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I've seen so much that it just blows my mind, you know, and it just it and it blew my mind even as a little girl.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: I would give nosebleeds when I'd watch uh traumatic things happen, my nose would just start bleeding because I'd be freaking out.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um my brother used to be like, get away from the window and quit watching everything.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I couldn't I couldn't stop watching.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was like a murder scene, you had to watch it on TV, you know.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it was my life.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: That was my life I was living.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was in front of me as my family, you know, and and I just remember how traumatic it was and how trying to when I was trying to help my mom later on in life when when we started developing a relationship, um, was after I graduated high school.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because then she didn't have to take care of me.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: She just wasn't um a mom that could take care of children per se.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: If you were an adult, she got along with you just fine, you know, because you could take care of yourself.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't have to be responsible and she didn't want the responsibility.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so when we were trying to get along and stuff, it it was great on honky dory until I told her that she needed to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: quit um drinking because it be it was it was such a you know it wasn't just a once in a while drink.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was it had to be a party every single night.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: It couldn't just be hey have a glass of wine or have a you know cocktail with dinner.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: It had to be the whole you know the whole neighborhood was over, you know?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like you you know, you're we're getting too old for this.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And when my daughter my oldest daughter was born, I said, you know, you can you can you can talk to her, you can see her, but you're not allowed to touch her if you have one drop of alcohol on you.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Even one drop.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And boy did that cause a ruckus in our lives.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: She got so mad at me.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't talk to me for like three months.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and I mean but you know what she did?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: She quit.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: It made her quit.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um she quit you know well I thought she quit cold turkey come to find out she ended up going to a rehab.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: We I didn't find out till after she passed away when I was going through her lockbox that she had gone to rehab but she did it secretly because she didn't want people to she was ashamed that she had to go get help.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't want people to know I have to get help.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: I can't do this on my own.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish she would have told me that she couldn't do it on her own because I would have loved to help her do it, been there with her to help her get through it.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think we do that.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: We we isolate you know like you said we go in our room in our dark place because we don't think anybody is going to be willing to or able to help us or want to help us.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: And we're just we're in it for ourselves.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: We have to figure it out all on our own.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that part made me sad after my mom had passed away and I realized that she had gone to rehab all by herself.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was so really proud of her for doing it because she did quit but I just thought man what a lonely time in her life that must have been feeling so alone that nobody was there to help her.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know and I don't know which programs she went into like I said I was in I was just out of high school just out of high school and and so I was just shocked but um it was overwhelming.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that what happens is we lose our identity in who we really are um with the things that are said to us the things that are done to us the things that we do to ourselves because of the things that are said and done to us.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a it is it is a cycle and we think this is the norm.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really not the norm.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: We just think it's the norm.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know it's just what we're supposed to get adjusted to like you know deal with it.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is the way it is this is life.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um we want to tell everybody oh this is what's acceptable in society.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: This is how we have to be accepted into society like you were saying before.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And there's so much truth behind all of that because we don't stand up and be who we are who God actually gave us the rights to be.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: He assigned us with our own self-identity and we don't stand up to that because if somewhere down the line in our life we were told that we had to be this way instead of that way.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or we had to do this instead of that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or you you're better off at this and not so good at that.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And they they s they take and they take and they take parts of your identity and then you get to a point where you don't know who you are until you go through that like you said I I loved what you're talking about in your profile how you you had to surrender all of it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Once you surrender all of it that's when the peace came and then you were able to finally start building and recognizing who you are as a person.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know who am I?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know who is Jennifer you know who who am I?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I want to be me.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be who the world tells me to be and I used to be the same way I used to try to please everybody because it just seemed to be more peaceful that way.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: If I was pleasing everybody then I didn't have to worry about any conflict.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: I hated conflict because I had it my whole entire life and I think we run from those things instead of facing them head on and sending up for who God made us to be and that's why I love Crossing Strongholds because um I decided instead of trying to partner with everyone else in the world I partnered with God.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like you know what God I need you on my side because I'm I'm trying to do this alone.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so um with that being said what in your again we're talking about coaching a little bit too but in your life where did the spiritual where did God come into your your story?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah about that.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I uh walked into an inpatient facility the day after my son graduated from high school and and the goal in that was how do I save my son right like how do I stop being a drug dealer?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: How do I get so many drugs out of the house?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like I wasn't interested in sobriety or recovery or transcendence or like that wasn't it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: I was just trying to figure out how to like use like a gentle lady.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I walked into this inpatient facility it was a locked down behavioral hospital that had like an addiction wing, right?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: Not the most glamorous of situations.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: They would come in every 15 minutes while you're sleeping with a flashlight to make sure that you were still alive and hadn't harmed yourself.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was it was a lot right uh but it's interesting to me looking back it is where God met me.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like I, you know, I have clients now that are like sending their kids to Malibu and I'm like it's great but I'm telling you God met me in this locked down mental institution right um and what happened in that place is I started learning that the opposite of my addiction was connection.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like connection had been what I was yearning for my entire life and never felt it really right always felt like the outsider the old man you know the the one who was not loved for her authentic self.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like I had to be something else in order to be loved.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm in this facility with these other people that are addicts right um that understand my shame and understand what I've experienced and often had the same experiences and I started building this connection.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a gentleman there who had relapsed from an outpatient program and had said hey do you guys want to come to this outpatient program when we get out and at the time I wasn't working I was on disability and I was like I have nothing else going on right and I wanted more of this connection.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I went to this uh outpatient facility that happened to be a faith-based uh facility uh I actually ended up working for them for six years I was part of the executive team there and and believed very strongly in what we we did but um this place being faith-based uh the beautiful thing about it was you know I think oftentimes those of us that have experienced significant trauma and I can just speak for myself I believed that God felt about me the same way everybody else felt about me which is you're just not that lovable.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: If you had been lovable, I would have saved you from your childhood.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: I would have right like whatever the the messages that I told myself I believed that I I had no connection and I was gr raised fairly religious I would say we went to church a lot um you know I went through first communion and and I had the understanding of what religion was right I wasn't it wasn't uh something that we didn't experience uh but I didn't have that connection I didn't feel a kinship I didn't feel I didn't feel a relationship and when I went to this outpatient program um it was an opportunity for me to put my big toe in the pond of what does this mean for me?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like not what it meant for my parents and not what they tried to teach me growing up right but what does this act how do I feel how do I believe and that experience was one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever been through in my life and uh I can tell you today that that the only reason I have been able to be sober for nine nine years, the only reason I have you know been had the opportunity to stand before others and hopefully impact them moving forward is because of this relationship that I have.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and it is so deeply personal to me now.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the reasons I work with families is again I worked at this facility and loved I mean the people that work there are my people I feel very strongly about what they're doing.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: But there was this pull that I started to have which is Jennifer I did not lead you through every single one of these aspects of your life whether it is the granddaughter of an alcoholic or the alcoholic you know your dad or the relationship with your mom or walking through this addiction yourself or the experience that you've had with your son like I didn't walk you through all of that to not help family members.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's why we did this right um and so it it became this poll that I couldn't deny anymore and really feel like it was my purpose and God's direction for me to work with the family.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the I think the important thing for me I was sitting in my office one day when I worked uh at that facility and somebody said to me Jennifer if you could have one of two things but you can't have them both you have to choose uh you can have the perfect childhood you got everything that you needed your mom was fantastic your dad was not an alcoholic your grandfather didn't abuse you your siblings loved you you can have that that life or you can have the life that you have today and without question without pause I would choose the life that I have today right and and in that moment I realized that God didn't leave me God didn't didn't abandon me when I was a small child he did not have like my grandfather had free will my dad had free will like those things happened to me but he had so much he knew he knew the whole time Jennifer I'm gonna stand right here and we're gonna go through this and you're gonna have an opportunity one day that you're gonna use all of this for good you're gonna help my children you're gonna do the work like you're gonna use these experiences it's going to make sense to you one day and I'm gonna stand right here as we walk through this and I know it's gonna be hard there are going to be days where you don't think you're gonna wake up the next morning.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's gonna be days where you try not to wake up the next morning.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: But if you can just have this experience and this courage I promise you I'm gonna use every single bit of this for good and for me now that is the only thing that makes sense it's the only thing that makes sense of my childhood it's the only and and it's the way that I have been able to forgive on such a deep spiritual level like I will never forget as long as I live the day that I forgot forgave my grandfather.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: And not I think you know sometimes people get forgiveness wrong.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like if he were alive today, I want to break bread with him.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like I you know want to be his best friend.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's that's not the kind of forgiveness I'm talking about.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: The forgiveness I'm talking about is this spiritual understanding that even though he did what he did, well and let me just preface this my grandfather was a twin and both of those men abuse children.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to make an assumption right you have to connect the dots that they were probably also abused.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and I look at sort of the generation you know the trauma generationally in my family and I mean this and this might sound crazy to some people but I feel with God's help that every generation before me did the very best that they knew how to do with what they were given.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't enough and it fell incredibly short.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: But that doesn't change that I do believe that they did the very best that they could and that has allowed you know some healing inside of me that that um am I impacted by it every day.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Every day I deal with something that that my sexual abuse has changed inside of me.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I was changed who I was the first time that that happened to me.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: But the forgiveness is for me what has created that that sort of peace and I could not even begin to do that without my relationship with God.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Wow that's that's wonderful I mean all everything you just said um there's so much power behind that testimony right there.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to touch on a couple of things um again kind of back to you know what you said that you think that our families did the best they could like I said like we don't come with handbooks you know we're not they're not equipped but here's the thing is is in all honesty um we end up becoming equipped because God equips us in the end.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we just don't realize that sometimes what he's putting us through is is what it takes for us to become equipped and getting that knowledge and that know how.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that um as God is equipping us like I call it is like um we sometimes we look back and we think God why did you allow this to happen in my life?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Why why did you make me endure this?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Why you know the why, why and I I can totally relate with what you said because I used to think that um I didn't matter to God either.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I used to say what you know why did you even make me if if I wasn't going to be good enough for you.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: I used to say that to God.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I was saved at 10 years old but I I you know I didn't have any discipleship at 10.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't get discipled until you know later later in life but um I didn't even know that I had to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't understand there was some personal you know aspects to it because there was nothing personal in my religious upbringing that was shown to me.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: In my walk with my family my friend you know everyone around me I did have a foster grandma that was that I was really close with I I would had been taking care of her for six years.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: She's the one who I told you just passed away she was my foster grandma since I was two.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: She's the one who I had probably the deepest relationship out of anybody I've ever met in my entire life.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And she would teach me things but she was real stern and she would say you know what you can't be mad you just have to love them and I'd be like I don't really want to love them.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know she'd say too bad get over it.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you know one time she sat me down she said you can be mad at your mom all you want because I really struggled with that.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: I hated my mom for a long time.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I said I don't know what to do about this and she said well you know what you can be mad at your mom all you want.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: The Bible doesn't say you have to like it just says you have to honor and love her.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I said I don't want to do either one of those things.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: She's like too bad get over it.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the Bible says you have to do.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like trying to eat those words now I was like you know and then learning to forgive like my grandfather I I loved what you said about the forgiveness um about your grandfather because same if my grandfather was here we would not be going out to lunch together.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: That is just something that would not happen.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I didn't forgive my grandfather until after he passed away so I didn't verbally go up and tell him I forgave him.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: I did tell my mom that I forgave him but I knew that he had also hurt my mom.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it took my mom until three years before she passed away to finally admit it that he had been abusing her, you know, had abused her very badly and I knew it because of the abuse that he had done to me and by the behaviors that she had that came with it.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: And um it was recognizable and I thought man I wonder how recognizable my behavior is to what's happened to me you know oh my goodness you know and I can only imagine what people saw and I'm like oh man you probably you know probably made a fool of myself more than once or twice.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember sitting at my mom's feet and talking to her about it and she opened up and shared her story and I was like oh my gosh mom you know I knew but I didn't know it was I didn't know all of it you know and I felt like that day she finally was able to let go of some things you know because she actually was able to talk about some things that she could never talk about before with anybody else.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: She had a large family there's I think eight or nine of them in the family and and they didn't just talk they didn't talk about stuff like that.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: They just endured whatever came along they took you know like they said you know they felt like their parents did the best they could I felt like my mom for what my mom went through I felt like she did the best that she could and I actually honored her when she would put me in foster homes because it's because she knew she couldn't take care of me and she wanted someone to take care of me.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know it I did I like it.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: No I hated it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I you know I wanted my mom but I didn't want my mom.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was such a yo-yo situation growing up like I I loved her and I hated her at the same time people like how do you have that emotion I'm like I can't explain it it's just the way it is you know um because when you're wanted and you're you're wanted but you're not wanted at the same time it puts you in that state of mind.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and you have to overcome it.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like with people that are facing addictions um I know that you know my mom drank a lot and and I mean I was drunk the first time I got drunk I was 16 months old and my mom thought it was funny and it was an accident of course but she shouldn't have left a drink sitting on the table and then she shouldn't have made it taste so darn good you know and I climbed up and I drank the whole thing.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know she found me rolling under the table and I was drunk.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you know everybody laughed and they thought it was funny and she my nickname was boozer and and you know and she when I was going I was 12 years old to go get baptized the pastor asked my mom why do you call your daughter boozer?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when she changed it to boo because she thought I better not call her that no more because my little drunken child.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean I was titled My Little Drunken Child.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I kept thinking I don't want to be an alcohol I don't want to be a boozer.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Why you keep calling me a boozer you know and then um of course as I got older everyone called me boo but um which they still do kind of is like okay whatever I'm 54 now but you know only some people can get away with it.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: But um in the end you you have to think about it and you have to just go you know what it's it's the best that she could do.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you know even though she's gone now and um she's been gone seven years.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: I miss her I miss her terribly but we used to fight like cats and dogs.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was just like everybody'd be everybody would be like how are you guys living together?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like how?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I I have such an am and um such a deep amount of love for my mom that people can't even fathom it for what she's put me through.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know peop people in my life are like how do you even how do you even begin to love her with what what you've been through and I said it's not about what I've been through it's about who we became and they're like wow how did you how did you get over that and I said well it was God for one if it wasn't for God I'd still be sitting in that pit right now.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: And for two, you know the forgiveness and the surrendering all and and the acceptance accepting it you know and the other thing I wanted to point out to you that you mentioned in your your profile is when you're talking about the honesty I feel like sometimes um the reason we can't get over or through our addictions is because we're not 100% honest with ourselves.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's always let's blame somebody else and not put you know not take the responsibility of our own actions.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: We want to take that that victim mentality and be like but I'm a victim of this it's this is why I'm acting this way.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't want to be 100% transparent honest.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think that that's where it begins is once you realize that you have to be honest with yourself, that's when the healing and the transformation can start can do can you do you agree with that?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think on those lines?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: No I do and I as I'm listening to you it for me um and even maybe before that.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: So even more before I could be honest about because I had similar experiences as you have had about sitting in counseling offices with my children right and them being very honest about their experience of what it was like to be raised by my husband and I and specifically me because I was the one with the addiction right um and and that's hard.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: Some of the hard and and still have conversations occasionally like that if something comes up that's triggering them or a conversation that you know authentically has happened.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's still hard.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: But my experience with being able to start being honest with myself started only after I could forgive other people for their lack of perfection.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: I could only start forgiving my own lack of protection or perfection when I started forgiving other people for their lack of protection perfection because this is the thing I believed that perfection was required.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: It was required of me and it was required of somebody else in order to be liked loved seen appreciated and valued right and of course perfection is impossible.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I always fell short and therefore that's why I wasn't loved seen appreciated valued right was because of my lack of perfection.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I still held myself to that until I started giving other people grace until I started forgiving my mom and my dad and and saying things like I do believe they did the very best with what they were given.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: My father was 19 million times the father that his father was right and and if I had to give myself that same forgiveness like the same grace that I was giving my grand my father I had to give it to him first and then I allowed it for myself because I held myself to a higher standard.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: And once I started giving myself that grace that is when I could sit in the truth I could sit that the fact that this wasn't perfect and I made a lot of mistakes I could sit in that because all of a sudden it didn't mean that I wasn't lovable.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because as long as I thought that if I told you the truth that meant I was an absolute piece of you know what, nobody was going to like me nobody was going to value me.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: As long as I kept that mindset, I could never be truthful about it.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: I was always trying to put a mask on project something that I wasn't um and and and also when I started and when I it kind of happened all at the same time when I started giving myself that grace is when my relationship with God really was starting to transcend my life because if you think that God does not make mistakes Mistakes.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: But you are a mistake.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: There is some cognitive dissonance in that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't make mistakes with anybody, but he made a mistake with me.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: There's some positive dissonance in that, right?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so I in when I started forgiving other people and looking at it from a that mindset, it's like, oh, well, maybe he didn't mess up on me either.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe perfection is not what he is requiring of me.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe, maybe, maybe, right?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and I agree with you, there has to be honesty.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: We have to take the masks off.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: If we are going to transcend addiction, we have and it's not even a it's a great thing to do.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: We have to take the masks off and start becoming okay in our lack of perfection.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, and when we talk about that, the perfection part of it, I think about you know, the scripture says there there is no perfection other than Jesus.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: So unless you're trying to be exactly like Jesus, which is not not a tough thing to try to try to even try to do.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: You could try all you want, guys.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: You can try it, but it's you're not going to succeed at it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um God doesn't expect the perfection.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: He just wants our heart, you know, he just wants us to feel the love and that you know the joy and and the great and the grace and the mercy that he bestows upon us, even when we don't deserve it.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Just like what we have to sh bestow upon someone else that doesn't deserve it.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: And like when you said about the forgiveness, like I my grandfather was dead, and I remember thinking, oh man, it's too late to forgive him because he already died.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, but I never forgave him, so what do I do?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I went to my grandmother, who is the wisdom in my life, and I said, What do I do?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, just forgive him.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: I said, But he's dead.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Well, too bad, forgive him.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like she always just wrote she's really quick, you know, just forgive him.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: But that's the thing.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: So my grandfather was also past when I went through that process.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the thing.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_03: Before I forgave him, he controlled almost every thought that I had, every decision that I made, every relationship, the way that a relationship danced, right?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: He had the purse strings too.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: And he had been gone for decades.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so that moment of forgiveness, yes, it was for him.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, but mostly it was just a pair of scissors that cut all of those ties and all of the control that he still had over my life and my mindset and the way that I thought about things and relationships.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: Really, for me, it was that moment to set that free.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like set me free, set him free.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like you no longer get to control my every thought, my every decision, my every relationship.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and I, and that was decades after he had passed.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so there is, I believe, still this need, if you will, to to have that.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it it was a wrestling, like, I'm not gonna lie, like there was a lot of conversations I had with God that I'm like, he's got no business being forgiven.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I can't even believe that that this was put on my heart, right?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how dare you even suggest that this is a me problem?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: How dare you suggest that I'm the one that has to do this, right?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like there was some wrestling that happened.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but ultimately, you know, that forgiveness was more about me than it was about him.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that healing was more about me than it was about him.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, that's that's why I think it doesn't matter if they're gone.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter if they live next door.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like this process is about freeing yourself and in that moment of freeing yourself to open yourself up to even more of a connection with God.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that, you know, like like like you even wrote, uh, when you're taking that, you have to take that pain and you have to turn it into that purpose.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how you're doing it.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's part of the, those are the steps in doing that, by the way.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um exactly.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what I love about like the crossing strongholds, I always say, you know, turn your pain into power.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think the next step is once you've gained your purpose, then you can start demonstrating the power that comes with it because you've been freed from it.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: And until you get that freedom, you're just gonna sit and wallow in it.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: I wallowed.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: I wallowed in my grief and my pit for my pit was beautiful.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: It was blinged out.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I had it perfect.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was comfortable.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: I invited people in it.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: I lived in it for years, and I just I I allowed myself to stay stuck in that stupid pit for so long, and letting the enemy and letting all of the, you know, like all those conversations about my grandfather stay with me and all of the other past hurts I had from the other abuse that I'd had in my life.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: I just hung on to all of that.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I had, like you said, I I had these, you know, I cried and I yelled and I manifested all this anger and frustration because I just wanted, I wanted to punch somebody in the throat.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just really wanted to just let all my frustration out, you know.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, it just like you know, when you're having a tantrum, you just really want to let it, you know, really have that release.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and and sometimes it's you have to do that in order to get it.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: You you just have to allow that to happen.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: You have to allow for that process to it's okay to for that for the freeing to happen.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, when you're 54 years old, it doesn't look really good if you're throwing yourself on the floor.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean you can if you want, I don't really recommend there's ways of having to answer.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: It probably doesn't look good for me either.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but I mean you can shut the door and have your little pow-wow and kick your feet and all that.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is okay.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, you know, sometimes we have to just do things the way that we need to do them to get through them.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I think like it, you know, mentioned the first part is you know, recognizing how how honest and dishonest we are with ourselves, how much we're harboring, how much we sometimes we only you know get rid of a little bit and we think that's the healing, but we don't surrender all of it.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what I've learned more than anything with doing this podcast is the amount of people that said until I surrendered all of it, I did not get free from it.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: It still was connected to me somewhere.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I like the illustration, and I hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna borrow it.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: But when you said all those strings that you were cutting, so imagine, you know, this is especially for our listeners, imagine you have all of these attachments, and if you're only gonna clip one or two of those attachments, you're still attached to it.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't clip them all, every single one of them, you can't you're not surrendering all.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: You're only getting, you're kind of like compartmentalizing, like I'm gonna keep this over here, and I'm gonna keep this over here.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: But then you're gonna wonder why it's resurfacing.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Why is the pain still happening?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why is the trauma still there?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: Why am I feeling this anxiety, this depression?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: What is this?
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's happening?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's that that trigger that happens.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: We get triggered because you're still connected to it.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, you're not disassociated from it anymore.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: You're hanging on to it.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're hanging on like that's your lifeline.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: The only lifeline we should have is Jesus Christ.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we should be hanging on to, and let everything else take its place.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: It can go away to the wayside.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: Take that garbage truck and dump it at the trash, you know.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm a conversation.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a quote girl.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: You see back here if you're um watching us.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and one of the quotes that just reminds me so much about what you're talking about is by Joseph Campbell.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: And the quote is the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, I I'm a person that thinks in, I think in stories, I think in pictures.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, it's, you know, we have all of this trauma, but inside of this cave is so scary, right?
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's bats and stalagmites and dark and you know, all the things inside of this cave.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't until I had created this relationship with my higher power that I had enough courage to walk inside of this cave.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: I was never going to find the treasure, right?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: I spent an entire life crawling over these rock climbs, if you will, and being like, where's this treasure that y'all speak about?
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why can't I find it?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like I was unworthy of it or dumb, right?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever it was, I couldn't find this treasure.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't until I started to have enough faith and enough trust in this thing that I called God to be able to walk inside of this cave and think that I was going to survive the innermost belly of this cave and the things that were in it, right?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, my own shame from what I did as an addict to my children and my family, the shame of my childhood, the relationships, all of it was inside of this thing.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't until I had that faith that I was able to go and walk in and go, No, look, I know this is not gonna be the best time of my life.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know this isn't gonna be fun, right?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and one of the things that I learned through the recovery process is that I cannot go in this thing by myself.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: I need my people, I need my like-minded other alcoholics and addicts that understand what it's like to be in this brain and how I've used this coping skill.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: I need them to come inside of this cave with me.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I need us to all just sit down and for me to do this work.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then the beautiful thing is we're gonna get up and we're gonna go in their cave.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm gonna go sit with them while they do it.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the thing about so many of us is like we want this treasure, but we're not going in that cave to get it.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: We think somehow we deserve this treasure without having to go inside of the cave.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: I deserve it to be out here because of all these hard things that I've been through in my life.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: I deserve it to be on the outside of this thing and not have to go inside.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not the way it works.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and the treasure is the most beautiful, um, I mean, like joy and peace and worth and love and value and all the things, right?
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's the the the greatest gift I've ever been given, but it doesn't come for it doesn't come at at no cost, and it takes some faith in order to get there.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that you know, that reminds me of a quick little story I'll share real quick as we start to wrap up.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you probably have heard about it.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's either a meme or a little story I seen a a while ago, but where a donkey falls in the well and the owner's looking way down in the well and he's like, Oh man, I can't get this donkey out.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have a rope long enough, I don't have enough manpower.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: So he just starts, he's like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna bury him alive and starts burying him.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: He's throwing dirt on top of the donkey.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the donkey had such a will to live that he every time he threw dirt down, he just put it under his feet until he got to the top and he walked out.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think that that's what we have to do sometimes.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: We really need to be in those positions where the dirt is getting thrown at us, but it's still the only way that we can get out.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: We have to face that trial, you know.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and I think even more, the dirt becomes your greatest asset.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: That to me is what like we have to be able to take what has happened to us and the experiences that we've had in this life.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's like two sides of the same coin, right?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, another quote that I love is uh by Victor Frankel, which is uh, what is to give light must endure burning.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what you're talking about, right?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm being buried alive, and yet I am using the dirt as the greatest asset that I have been given.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: And the question is, what are you going to do with the burn?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because even this light that's on me right now is burning, right?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like it and and and those of us that suffer with addiction that have been through significant trauma in our life, we have burned more than most, which means the light that we have the potential of giving is more than most.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's so good.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: That is such a good so the question is what are you gonna do with the dirt that's being flung on top of you today?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: Are you going to let it bury you?
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: Or are you going to use it in order to get out of this well?
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's like how you know, are you just gonna sit?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if if the donkey would have just sat down, he would the donkey would have died.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_03: If the donkey would have said, Oh, well, I'm just like, what am I gonna do?