Latest / BOB DOLE : 1995 Clinton's Comeback / Episode 471 The Fall of Bob Packwood (Part 5) 24 Hours (B) News in anticipation Dole 12

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Episode 471 The Fall of Bob Packwood (Part 5) 24 Hours (B) News in anticipation Dole 12 · BOB DOLE : 1995 Clinton's Comeback

• 0:25
  SPEAKER_22: A harsh condemnation of one senator of another, in my memory.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_30: That's right.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_30: Senator Bryan, the vice chairman of the committee, said this is the atomic bomb.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_30: Uh this is the kind of behavior that merits our most severe penalty.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_22: Gross, degrading, continuous sexual misconduct.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_22: And as Mitch McConnell, the chairman of that committee, put it, that if this had been in a criminal case, it was a clearly illegal obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_22: Said he could have gotten, Packwood could have gotten up to five years in a criminal court.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_22: Is he going to resign?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_30: We don't really know.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_30: Uh he's hadn't sent mixed signals on that yesterday.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_30: He said he wasn't going to resign, but then uh he also said uh earlier today that there is life after the Senate.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_30: He's certainly under pressure to resign.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_30: The chairman of the committee said he hopes he will resign.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_22: A question to you is this in a way the uh ethics committee attempt to have its cake and eat it too?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_22: They took a lot of heat for saying no public hearings.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_22: Now they say we didn't need him.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_22: We're gonna expel him, we're gonna impose the worst possible silence we could.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_30: What they wanted to have is credit for handling this matter decisively after 33 months of investigations, but avoiding the spectacle of public hearings that would hold the Senate up to uh to humiliation.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_30: The most revealing comment was Mitch McConnell, the chairman of the committee's initial comment at his press conference when he said, to those who say the Senate doesn't get it, our message is we got it.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_30: Now, that was a clear reference to the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings when the Senate Judiciary Committee was widely criticized and ridiculed for not getting it as far as women's rights were concerned.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_22: Bill Schneider in Washington, appreciate you being with us as always.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everybody, this is Randall Wallace, and this is our fifth look in the fall of Bob Packwood, and this is where you're gonna see the news media go crazy because they are on it when uh once the ethics committee comes out and has their press conference.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we're gonna start you off with a CNN company, and what you're gonna notice is a lot of folks who you see now in prime time, Laura Ingram on Fox, Lawrence O'Donnell on uh MSNBC, uh Candy Crowley, who is a blast in the past, uh what you're gonna see uh a lot of these folks who were not big names in 1995, who are today, commenting on this because Lawrence O'Donnell had been uh the Finance Committee's uh uh chief of staff.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he did before he was on MSNBC, and Laura uh Ingram had been an intern or uh an aide to Clarence Thomas and worked for the uh Bush administration.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So she is just beginning her career on television and ironically on CNN for all the basket CNN that goes on.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's where she started.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna start off with this uh this group.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're coming in right behind the press conference that Mitch McConnell and uh uh uh Senator Bryan had done.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you you we opened the show with Bill Snyder, who was the political director at CNN, and now they're gonna talk in depth about what happened, what has going on with Bob Packwood.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And like they said, Packwood has vowed to fight, they know that, but you can see the writing is beginning to be written on the wall where this is going.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_22: Laura Ingram is a former aide to President Ronald Reagan, former law clerk to Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, and is on the advisory board of the Independent Women's Forum.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_22: And we also have joining us from Capitol Hill, CNN's own correspondent, Candy Crowley.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_22: Candy, we are hearing that Senator Packwood has asked for time on the Senate floor sometime uh within the next few hours.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_22: We of course are gonna go to that live when we see him take the podium.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_22: What is the expectation?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_22: Do people there think he will resign for all the naysaying he did yesterday, evening, and this morning?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_16: Uh people here hope he'll resign.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_16: I'm not sure anyone at this point knows exactly what he's gonna do.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_16: I will tell you that uh rumors have run rampant that he has resigned, that he will resign, that he's uh thinking about resigning.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_16: Um his his office flatly denies that he's gonna do that.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_16: Remember that the welfare bill is on the floor.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_16: It could be as simple as he wants some time to talk about the welfare bill.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_16: One wonders under these circumstances whether that's it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_16: He may just want a chance to talk directly and do a little preemptive defense uh and talk directly to his colleagues.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_16: But in any case, I I don't think anybody, and maybe even not Senator Packwood, knows what's gonna happen next.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_22: To Mandy, I would think some of the people most upset with Packwood's conduct would prefer to see him expelled by the Senate rather than resign, because it's my understanding if he uh resigns, he keeps those nice uh retirement Bennies and the pension, whereas if he is expelled by the Senate, he doesn't get them.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_06: True.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_06: Well, this has always been a story about Washington living by a different set of rules than the rest of the country.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_06: But I think most of all people want to see him gone.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_06: I think they've made the right recommendation here, and I think, frankly, this is really about the Senate turning on him and Republicans turning on him.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_06: Uh I think they feel double-crossed.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_06: I think they all went out on a limb uh at his request and Bob Dole's request uh to stand against public hearings.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_06: It was a very unpopular vote.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_06: And then he double-crossed them over the recess, and you just don't do that to your colleagues.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_06: I think that was more upsetting to them than the charges themselves, unfortunately.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_22: Laura, there are many uh supporters of Senator Packwood who would maintain all he was really guilty of with these 17 women, the 18 allegations, was boorish conduct, not illegal.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_22: Uh, both Senator Mitch McConnell, who is a Republican, and uh Democratic Senator Richard Bryan suggest that it's beyond stolen kisses that it was gross and inappropriate.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_22: But Senator McConnell also seemed to suggest that totally aside from the sexual misconduct charges, that there was a clear violation of criminal law in Senator Packwood's destroying changing evidence.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_22: How as a defender of Packwood can you uh uh make m peace with that?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_26: Well, first of all, I'm not a defender of Packwood, so I don't I don't quite know where that came from.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_26: Uh the the issue here is if uh Senator Packwood is guilty of obstruction of justice, which from the evidence that I just heard sounds pretty accurate, uh then the Justice Department will take the case and uh he's facing uh significant felony penalties.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_26: Uh this was not an I these weren't isolated incidents of of uh of uh inappropriate behavior.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_26: The documented charges which seem to be uh all-encompassing are uh scores of women who document conduct that is very, very consistent across the years, uh, something that was not done in the Clarence Thomas case, which uh again highlights the issue of sexual harassment.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_26: And I think people are finally saying that this is not a uh partisan issue.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_26: We have the issue of Mel Reynolds, and now we have the issue of uh Senator Packwood.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_26: Unfortunately, this kind of conduct goes across party lines.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_22: Do you believe, as as Bill Schneider said, that part of what is uh has befallen Senator Packwood and the Ethics Committee is an attempt to uh to uh tell women that they did get it in the wake of Clarence Thomas, your old boss, having been approved for the Supreme Court by the Judiciary Committee?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_26: No, I don't I mean again, I don't think that uh there's really almost any similarities between the two cases.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_26: Uh and and obviously in Packwood's case, we have uh I guess over 20 women now coming forward and describing very, very similar conduct over a long period of time.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_26: Simply didn't have that in the case of uh of Justice Thomas.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_26: So I really think that, you know, if the Republicans hadn't uh uh banded together the Democrats with the ethics committee, they would be criticized.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_26: And now they're being criticized because they're uh because they acted in the course that they did.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_26: Um it seems like they can't win in this situation.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_26: I think it's time to uh for the American people to finally realize that this kind of conduct won't be con uh won't be condoned and certainly won't be supported by the Senate, and maybe we'll learn some lessons from that.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_22: To Candy Crowley on Capitol Hill, I'm sure a lot of people, not the least of them, Bob Peckwood, are doing some head counting today.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_22: If he has not already decided to resign, will the Senate expel him?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_22: It takes 67 votes.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_22: Two-thirds.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_16: Two-thirds.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_16: Um I'm not sure he has it.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_16: I you know, this thing came as such a shock.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_16: I think they are all sort of still in shock.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_16: I talked to a bunch of people this morning, all of whom said, you know, we expected to have to vote on censure, we expected to have to vote on removing him from the chairmanship, but this came as a huge shock.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_16: So I think they're trying to get their sea legs back.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_16: But I think in the long run it's going to be very, very tough for this Senate to reject a three to three Democrat, three Republican verdict that the man ought to be expelled.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_22: Candy, stay with me a minute.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_22: Now I want to get the opinion of both Mandy and Laura as well.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_22: Everything had any any pundit in Washington who's been saying, oh, they won't expel him at the most, he's gonna lose finance committee chairmanship.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_22: Uh his seniority, but they won't expel him for this.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_22: What changed?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_16: Well, uh guilty of at having said all that.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_16: Um I think what changed, first of all, a lot of people have talked about the senator's behavior uh between the time the Senate recessed and now.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_16: Uh, right before the Senate recessed, and we went through this in in the news conference, the senator said, I don't want public hearings.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_16: Uh, Barbara Boxer tried to force public hearings.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_16: He banded everybody together and they didn't get enough votes to force public hearings.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_16: Suddenly during the uh recess, he said, Well, you know what?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_16: I think I want to have public hearings.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_16: Everybody viewed that as a way for the senator to delay this, to again put off what has now been an almost three-year investigation to drag it out further so he can still be finance committee chairman.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_16: It really ticked people off, I think.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_16: And in fact, at the at the very left end, a lot of people said, uh, we think his behavior has been erratic here.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_16: We think it is not making any sense.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_16: I can't believe he did this.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_16: So I think that really tipped it because I'll tell you also that the ethics committee decision was not based on those two cases that came in at the last minute.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_16: They said we made our decision to expel him based on the stuff we had already heard, not on the two cases that came in at the last minute.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_22: Mandy, do you buy this theory that Packwood may have damaged himself?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_22: Richard Bryan was insisting it was nothing that the Senator himself said in the last few weeks that really swayed them, that it was the the impact of all those months and months and months and months of testimony they had.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_06: Well, that should be the way it was.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_06: These are really serious charges, but we've known them since May.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, the fact that he had committed a crime and tampering with evidence, that was in the Ethics Committee report in May.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_06: What's really changed is the Republican attitude, because the Democrats were lined up for public hearings, for tough penalties before the recess.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_06: I think over the recess, as Candy pointed out, when Packwood changed his position about public hearings, basically leaving his colleagues at to drive who had uh voted against them at his request and Bob Dole's request, I think that's when they said, forget it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_06: I think there's another issue here, and that's unfortunately presidential politics.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_06: You have Bob Dole, who is feeling increasing heat from the Republican right, running around the country, setting himself up as a moral leader, chastising Hollywood, chastising pretty much everyone for failing to meet high moral standards.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_06: He could not stand the public spectacle of continuing to defend this man who, on moral charges, is completely indefensible.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_22: Let's go to Laura on that one because certainly I would think part of Bob Packwood's problem on Capitol Hill these days as a Republican, Laura, is that his position on social issues, he is in favor of choice on abortion.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_22: And in a party that likes to talk about family values, he is not the best poster boy, is he?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_26: Absolutely not.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_26: I mean, it seems to me that we have to uh understand that not only could Senator Dole not afford to have these public hearings uh uh go on all through the fall, and and it would be a benefit probably only to the lawyers involved and to the networks who would be covering it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_26: Uh but he's got to say, oh my goodness, we have to focus on welfare reform, the budget.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_26: He has to come forward as a leader, not only on family values issues, but on the Senate's agenda as a whole.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_26: So obviously, if there were two or three or four weeks devoted to the PACWIT hearings, it would be disastrous for the Republican.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_22: Prediction from each of you, we're almost out of time.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_22: They talked on the in the news conference about a possible vote on expelling him next week if he has not resigned, Laura.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_22: Is the Senate gonna expel him if he doesn't resign?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_22: Probably unanimously.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_22: Candy, I know I asked you before, predict.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_16: Absolutely, I think they'll expel him if he doesn't resign.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_16: My guess is he'll resign first.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_22: Mandy.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_22: He's gone.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_22: He's just got to figure it out pretty soon.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_22: And we're gone too all out of time.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_22: But we are again, uh having been told that Senator Bob Packwood, under the threat of expulsion, will uh possibly take the Senate floor today.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_22: CNN will, of course, bring you that speech live if and when it happens.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_22: We appreciate Mandy Grunwall, Laura Ingram, Candy Crowley being with us.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_22: We are pleased you were with us as well.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_22: I'm Mary Tillotson.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_22: Tomorrow we're gonna be wrapping up the week in the Simpson murder trial.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_22: Hope you're with us then.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_22: Goodbye.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_31: This is about as bad as it gets.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_31: This is this is serious, and this is uh damaging to each of us.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_31: It's damaging to the institution.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_31: Uh, perhaps the only positive thing uh that has come out of it is the unanimity with with with which the ethics committee has now acted.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_15: Packwood would become the first senator since the Civil War to be expelled.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_15: Democrat Jesse Bright of Indiana got the boot in 1862 for supporting the Confederate rebellion.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_15: One of Packwood's chief critics, Senator Barbara Boxer of California, will talk about the Packwood case today on CNN's Talk Back Live.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_15: That's at 3 30 p.m.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_15: Eastern.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_15: And a reminder if Senator Packwood takes to the Senate floor to state his case, we will carry that for you live.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_15: In the meantime, Cinpson trial is expected to resume at any moment.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_15: Let's go out to see he's not being treated justly.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Of the of the 19 women that have complained, and there's only one in the last 12 years, six of them are anonymous.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: You never interviewed them, I've never had a chance to question them.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: That that just isn't fair.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_17: The bottom line is this is extraordinary.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_17: And so I think he is uh he's very weak now.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_17: Uh he uh he'd just be so much better off to resign.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_21: And late this morning, North Carolina Republican Senator Lotch Fairclaw also called for Packwood's resignation.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_21: In the meantime, several members of the Senate Ethics Panel will hold a press conference.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_10: All eyes in Washington these days are on Senator Bob Packwood.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_10: In a rather unprecedented move, the Senate Ethics Committee called for the expulsion of Senator Packwood for violating the ethical codes of that August body.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_10: Not since the Civil War has the bipartisan committee in the Senate recommended expulsion.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_10: Packwood is currently the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, the battleground for the coming budget wars.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_10: Will the Senate vote to expel him?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_10: And what will that do to the budget process going forward?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_10: Joining us now to look at these issues, two Washington experts.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_10: Les Alperstein is a managing director at HBSC and Stan Collander, Director of Federal Federal Budget Policy at Price Waterhouse, both join us from our Washington Bureau.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_10: Gentlemen, thanks for being with us.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_10: Les Alperstein, let me start with you.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_10: What do you make of this whole thing?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_10: I mean, first of all, do you think that it's possible Senate Packwood Senator Packwood will be indeed expelled?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_10: And if so, what are the ramifications?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's certainly possible, but it's going to be hard to get the 66 votes that are necessary to expel them.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: And uh furthermore, I think uh if Senator Packwood felt that that was a likelihood or there was a good chance of that happening, that he would resign, because even if he remains in office, they will certainly strip him of his chairmanship of the Senate Finance Committee.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I I think it's more likely that he will resign under the circumstances.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_10: All right.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_10: Um, Stan, I want to ask you about how this will impact the budget process then going forward.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_10: Uh as we heard Emil Cabuto brought this up a little earlier uh in the day, and then uh Congressman Nick Smith uh pointed out that it's altogether possible Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole will step into that uh chairmanship void and run the Senate Finance Committee himself.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_10: What does that mean to the process?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_25: Well, first of all, I think that's rather unlikely uh given uh that uh you would require that the majority leader suddenly uh start getting involved in in more detail on issues that he probably doesn't want to get involved in while he's running for president.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_25: Um it's more likely he's gonna run the committee, you know, through a surrogate.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_25: Um you know, this is not unlike what's happened several other times when the leadership has had to step in to work through a new chairman at the last minute.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_25: Um but very clearly Bob Dole, one way or another, either directly or indirectly, is gonna have to take more control of the process here.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_25: Um and and that that's gotta have a lot of a lot of implications for what the ultimate outcome is.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_25: Remember, Bob Dole's running for president as well.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_25: Um anything he does uh through the committee is gonna you know have some impact on the presidential race.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_10: Uh Stan, though, does it on a net-net basis, does it strengthen or weaken the Republican hand when it comes to passing the important economic, financial, fiscal bills that are all coming up for a vote in the next several weeks?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_25: Well, my guess actually is that it it's gonna weaken it a little bit.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_25: Uh it inserts a whole nother layer of politics in at a lower level of the committee, uh committee process that you probably don't want to do.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_25: Um, in addition, uh, you know, Bob Dole may not uh if he's got a chairman coming in, you know, to run the committee like Senator Roth, who's got different positions than he does, is now gonna have to make fights that he wouldn't have had to make with Senator Packwood, whose positions were fairly close to his.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because Senator Roth, who is next in line after Dole, and Dole probably most likely wouldn't want to give up his majority leadership, um, is more conservative than Packwood and is more likely to uh be in the camp of the leadership, i.e., uh Senator Dole and other leaders uh in the uh uh in the Senate.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I I I think it's probably a better chance that in the short run uh they can coalesce uh around uh different bills.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_25: Ron, there's probably something else we need to mention here, and that's very simply that uh the staff at the Senate Finance Committee is not gonna change.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_25: And a lot of the things that were already in the works with the staff working on them, putting together the materials, et cetera, are gonna have to go forward.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_25: Now there obviously will be some changes on the margin if someone else is running the committee, but like we saw when when Congressman Rostinkowski left, uh, his staff remained largely intact until a year later when the new chairman, Chairman Gibbons, was able to change things.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_25: So it's not gonna have that big a immediate difference.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_10: Okay, we're gonna take a break on that note.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_10: When we come back, we will talk about train wrecks, we'll talk about bond market chaos.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_10: Now we're gonna talk about appropriations.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And this is her famous line about I voted to fire Senator Packwood.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: She was the only female on the ethics committee, uh, a Democrat from Maryland, and a very formidable lady, even though she's about four feet tall, uh, and um this is her press conference, and she lays it on the line here.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_18: People would hear not only the story of what had happened to the victims, but also this jobs for Georgie, this diary tampering.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_18: There would be no doubt uh about the conclusions the people of America would come to.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_18: I was not the only one.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_18: As I said, that's why I thank the men.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_32: Do you feel that this reflects a change in the uh in the United States Senate communities in the outcome of this?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_18: Yes, I do.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_18: Uh I believe that when uh when we were voting on Anita Hill matter.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_18: Actually, when we were voting on the nomination of Clarence Thomas, I took to the Senate for and I said that I had hoped that what had happened to you, Anita Hill, would be a teach-in with sexual harassment.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_18: And I called forth both my colleagues in the institution and men everywhere to take lessons for what had happened in that most terrible time in this institution.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_18: And I believe that that had such a searing impact on this institution that the victim, that any issues related to sexual misconduct would be taken seriously.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_18: That it was taken seriously by the ethics committee, that it was taken seriously by the United States Senate.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_18: I believe it was also that uh situation that encouraged us to make sure that we passed legislation that put us under the same personnel practices as is found in the private sector.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_18: So, yes, uh, I believe that.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_18: And in being the voice for the women, I want to again repeat um that I believe the voice was heard, and as the committee unfolded, there were several men on that committee who spoke up about ensuring that there was going to be a rape shield law to protect the women.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_18: Each and every member currently serving on the ethics committee, and then Senator Ted Stevens and Dashell, who served, also, I believe, conducted themselves with enormous sensitivity on this matter.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_18: And fairness.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_18: These particular men were already sensitive to I believe that the Anita Hill matter has had a searing effect uh on the con on the uh on the psyche of the Senate.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_18: Uh I believe my role, though, was to continually to articulate the issues around uh workplace experience and also how women are doubly victimized, both by the assailant and what happens in the process.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_18: Um and then there were other other matters.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_18: But uh I believe that there was a sensitivity, I believe that there was an incredible willingness to listen and to learn.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_18: Uh and uh I was turned to for advice on many occasions on issues related to sexual harassment and misconduct, and quite frankly.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_18: For my viewpoint of on how women would be reacting under the circumstances.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_18: Yes, absolutely, absolutely bipartisan.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_18: And I and I want to really enforce that.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_15: Quickly, uh development in this story.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_15: CNN has learned that Senator Packwood will not take to the Senate floor today to address these charges.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_15: He may be on the Senate floor talking about other issues, but he will not be talking about uh the developments uh in his story.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_15: Also, we have learned that he is still saying he will not resign.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_15: We resume now with the news conference of Senator McCombey.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_18: It was enormously serious.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_18: But each and every one of those three situations, sexual misconduct, diary tampering, and the abuse of power, soliciting a job for his wife through uh lobbyists, I think the cumulative nature of it was such that the government is.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_14: Externally in terms of its image, how do you feel the Senate is looking at the United States?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_18: Well, I think uh I'm sure that uh the Senate is looking very well.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_18: That number one, uh victims, the very first case before the Ethics Committee involving actual victims showed that uh the victims could get a fair shake.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_18: We showed uh that the Senate uh could police its own and that we could do this in a very fair way.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_18: This committee has embarked in a way that was neither uh a witch hunt and certainly not uh a whitewash.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_18: So I believe uh the ethics committee uh has acquitted itself uh with honor, and then of course now the matter will come to the Senate.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_14: Senator Packwood probably makes the difference.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_18: Yes, I'll come back to that.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_18: Senator, do you think that uh Senator Packwood should resign, or do you think there's any sort of benefit to a full debate and a vote of the Well, I think uh Senator Packwood uh should uh consult friends and um I would I would hope that he would resign uh and not take the Senate through a protracted debate, but if not, then we'll be prepared uh to act.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_18: Senator Packwood has taken the Senate through excruciated debate on two other equations.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_18: One on his diary and the release of his diary, then through the hours of uh uh court uh proceedings, he has taken the Senate through an excruciating uh debate on public hearings, in which he himself voted uh not to have public hearings.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_18: And so perhaps now we could just uh what do you think would Senator Packwood that opposite inquisition more in fair than an inquisition?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_18: Senator Packwood calling our efforts uh an Inquisition is absolutely outrageous, and it is out of line, and that's why one of the reasons I think you ought to be out of the United States Senate.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_18: Senator Packwood has been afforded every process that he is entitled to.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_18: He has been deposed by the United States uh Senate Ethics Committee with his lawyers present.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_18: He has uh appeared before the United States uh Senate Ethics Committee in the executive session, as was his right for three days.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_18: Then, though he chose to defend himself privately with us, to attack the women publicly on TV.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_18: And then he waived his right after those um that private session to public hearings, then in a vote on the United States Senate, he cast a vote against public hearings.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_18: So I think to say that this is an inquisition is outrageous.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_18: He's had innumerable pro he's had every process uh there and every opportunity to uh make his case, to defend himself, to produce evidence uh in his behalf.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_18: The Senate has followed all leads, not only the allegations against him, but whatever he chose by which to defend himself.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_18: I promise you that.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_12: So you said that you would hope that he would resign.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_12: Would it be harmful to the Senate to have a drawn-out debate in the vote?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_18: I think um the Senate will work its will.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_18: I don't think it's a question of harm or not.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_18: I'll come back to what I said in my earlier part of my remarks uh that in any other workplace uh if one had an employee that participated in sexual misconduct when at least 18 uh separate instances tampered with evidence uh and then used the job uh in an inappropriate way for personal uh gain uh that would warrant firing firing.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_18: And I think we're in a new day.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_18: I think that there is new workplace criteria, and I think we're using the uh criteria that would be used in any American workplace uh public or uh private.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_18: Yes.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_24: Can you think of as to whether his conduct is just unacceptable in 1995 or unacceptable?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_18: No, sexual misconduct is unacceptable.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_18: Misconduct is unacceptable at any time.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_18: I know of no time in history when the abuse of women was considered okay.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_18: Uh the second thing is that tampering with evidence, as long as we've been under the British common law, I think uh as well as the abuse of power, uh the what I think here though is that we're applying very definitely a workplace standard and moving uh an expulsion.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_14: I need not have public hearings from wanting public hearing.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_18: I'm I'm sorry.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_18: I'm gonna need you to agree to speak up now.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_20: How does the senator uh change their mind from first not wanting public hearings and then wanting uh public hearings?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_18: I think you'll have to um ask each and every one of the members of the committee that question.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_18: I made up my mind for expulsion during the executive session uh in which Senator Packwood appeared to make his own case.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_18: I found that he could not uh clearly articulate a defense uh in these three matters.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_18: Um and that uh again, cumulatively, uh that we had uh uh that there was a line here that had been so transgressed that uh it warranted um expulsion.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_18: Yeah, John, I promise you.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_19: Almost three years ago, Senator Packwood split that same law to him and said that we were sorry for what he does uh in the past, but yeah, I didn't get it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_19: Now I get.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_19: Uh you learned in an executive session that you detect remorse, did you get the feeling that he yes if no?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_18: Well, as you know, we're releasing ten volumes of um our inquiry.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_18: You'll you'll be able to um you'll be able to read uh what he said.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_18: Um I these this would be a subjective evaluation on my part.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_18: I detected no remorse, nor no action that demonstrated remorse.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_18: Um in the 12-step program, as you know, one of the cri one of the series of uh steps uh that a recovering alcoholic takes is to apologize to anyone they've made wrong, to make amends where possible, and if not possible directly to them to do something else.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_18: There was nothing about Senator Pockwood that said, I'm sorry, this is what I'm gonna do, or here's a community service project that I participated in.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_11: There was no uh as you'll see, I think the record was the language body and others before the uh the break, the ethics committee was split three, three on public hearing on the floor.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_11: Chairman McLean mentioned that the committee having the body along partisan lines.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_11: You come back and spend one minute, one hour, 45 minutes of unanimous vote.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_11: What happened in between that got everybody united on this issue?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_18: Well, I think uh we all had a chance to reflect uh on this matter and um were able to uh come to a speedy, uh speedy conclusion.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_18: And with that, I'm going to uh conclude this press conference.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_18: And uh I'm glad finally that after 34 months and meticulously sometimes to your frustration, uh obeying the rules of the Senate in terms of confidentiality.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_18: And I think you must acknowledge, as reporters, to your frustration, that we were uh we honored the integrity of that confidentiality.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_18: Now, with the release of the documents and the vote on the expulsion, the members uh can finally uh speak about both the facts and uh our observations and what we think should be done.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_18: So I I want to thank you really for I know it's been very frustrating dealing with us, but we really wanted to show that when the Senate was going to do its job, that um we would honor our own internal rules as well as the uh rights of Senator Packwood and the rights of the victims.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_18: So thank you.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_15: Senator Barbara McCulski, Democrat from Maryland, a member of the Ethics Committee, giving her reasons why she voted along with every other member of the Ethics Committee to recommend the expulsion of Oregon Senator Bob Packwood, pounding the lectern.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_15: She summed Bob Packwood's suspect actions this way, saying uh systematic abuse of women power and this institution, referring to the Senate what she believes Bob Packwood's uh uh involvement was and his actions.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_15: She's the only woman on the ethics committee, and she thanked the men on the ethics committee, saying they gave the women who came forward in his case uh fair treatment.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_15: Um Bob Packwood had called his advances toward women just merely stolen kisses.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_15: The Senate Ethics Committee said actually it was gross sexual misconduct, abuse of power, and they also charged that he tampered with evidence.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_15: There could be a full vote in the Senate next week on whether to expel Bob Packwood.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_15: He has said he will not resign, and he has called the committee's recommendation outrageous.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_15: If Bob Packwood were to be expelled from the Senate, he would be the first senator kicked out of the U.S.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_15: Senate since 1862.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_23: The OJC.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_23: Uh it was created by the Senate uh to investigate inquiries of this nature.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_23: Uh I certainly understand uh uh the frustration and perhaps the anger of a of a colleague who has uh been accused and uh and then uh a decision rendered by by the committee.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_23: Uh it's certainly not an inquisition.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_23: Uh we spent uh almost three years investigating this matter very carefully, uh day in and day out, uh thousands of pages of testimony, uh dozens of witnesses uh interviewed and depth deposed.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_23: Uh, it's and and I might have just one another point.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_23: Uh six members of the committee, uh Republicans and Democrats equally split.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_23: Uh Senator Packwood is a Republican, and uh and I think uh most common people with any common sense would conclude that any member of the uh of the ethics committee of the of the members party accused would go as far as possible uh before making any decision like this.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_23: And uh I would not make a decision to expel anybody from the United States Senate, one of my colleagues, unless I felt it was justified.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_20: And you are, we want to remind our viewers, uh a Republican yourself.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_20: Uh do you feel any sense that when when it comes to a full Senate vote, if it does in fact come to that, if uh Senator Packwood does not resign on his own, can you stand by the decision and go ahead and vote yourself for expulsion?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_23: There's no question that I'm going to vote for expulsion.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_23: I uh I believe uh that the facts and the evidence supports that.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_23: That's the reason why I voted the way I did.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_23: Uh it's not easy.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_23: It was a very painful process for me, for all of us on the committee.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_23: Uh no question about that.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_23: To judge a colleague with the most extreme penalty provided uh by the Constitution, which is expulsion.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_23: But I might also say that I would hope that every single senator would read and investigate all of the all of the material that he or she feels they need to investigate.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_23: Don't take our word for it.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_23: Please uh look at it yourself.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_23: This is a very important decision that you have to make if it goes to that, if Senator Packwood does not resign.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_23: And I certainly wouldn't want people to make a vote like that without uh having the facts at their disposal, which is why we have released all of the materials that we used to make our decision.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_20: And it is a voluminous amount of material.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_20: In fact, it's something like uh 40 pounds of material, 10,000 plus pages.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_20: Um we've been uh some of the folks, the journalists here at CNN, have been looking through some of those documents, and we're gonna bring you some excerpts from that later.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_20: But Senator, I want to bring on the telephone line now Bob who is in Massachusetts with a question.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_20: Bob, go ahead.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_29: Yes, I have a question.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_29: Um if if someone is there a conspiracy against Bob Packwood to try to get him out uh of Congress as a Republican uh so the Democrats could take over, or or maybe someone else would uh get in there as a Democrat?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_29: You know, I'm concerned about that.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_29: Is there a conspiracy against Bob Packwood?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_29: And then is is someone violating his civil rights?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_29: And you know, I'm very concerned that he's getting a raw deal here.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_23: Well, uh let me let me just say I think it would be pretty hard-pressed to make the case uh uh for a conspiracy against Senator Packwood to elect a Democrat when three Republican members of the Ethics Committee uh voted uh for expulsion.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_23: I think if you had an all-Democrat committee or a majority of Democrats and the decision uh came out, you might make that case.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_23: I don't think it would be a justifiable case.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_23: I think in all members of this committee, Republicans and Democrats alike, made this decision based on the evidence.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_23: It was extremely hard to do, it was very painful, it was an evolutionary process.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_23: It took a lot of time and a lot of investigation.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_23: There was no conspiracy at all.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_20: And uh some 34 months is where we're at at this point.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_20: Uh, Senator, as you said, that the Ethics Committee has released that uh 10,000 plus page report on the investigation of Senator Packwood.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_20: Uh, we want to read you some of the excerpts from this.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_20: As we've seen so far, of course, there's quite a bit for uh journalists here at CNN to go through, so we're gonna give you a couple excerpts that we've seen.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_20: In the in diaries from Senator Packwood, he is graphically describing sex with a staffer in his office.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_20: Want to read you part of it.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_20: It says, It's funny, Staffer One, not identifying this individual specifically.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_20: Staffer One and I were there for three hours.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_20: We made love once, got up and danced after we made love, lied back down on the floor, had another glass of wine.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_20: The wine was in the office.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_20: I rather enjoyed it in the sense that it wasn't wham bam, thank you, ma'am.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_20: Senator, I have to ask you this.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_20: I mean, this is certainly a very graphic uh comment to make, but it was a private diary, and and in the terms of this diary, at least in this excerpt, it sounds more in the nature of consensual activity.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_20: It uh I'm not clear on how this would play into a decision to say, all right, well, this is unwanted sexual conduct.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_23: Well, in the case of the example that was just given, it it uh it was apparently consensual sex, and no decision, uh this decision was not reached based on consensual sex, I can assure you of that.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_23: This decision was reached uh in part uh on the basis of a pattern of abuse against women who were either on the staff of Senator Packwood or under, in some way, uh the authority of Senator Packwood, a power uh that he abused with these women who uh uh uh frequently, uh as I say, some 17 or 18 women uh over a period of years from 1969 to 1990.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_23: We are not talking about consensual sex.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_23: Anyone who indicated that to you is simply incorrect.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_23: Uh consensual sex was documented, yes, uh I I uh um in in the diaries, but that is not what uh what the committee rendered its decision on.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_23: And of course, as any other the the second point that uh uh uh that we rendered our decision on was the fact that Senator Packwood withheld, altered, or destroyed, in some cases, uh evidence, relevant evidence, to the committee's investigation, which was a crime against the Senate, which were it to be uh taken out into the public domain outside of the Senate, in my opinion, would be obstruction of justice, but we don't make decisions on obstruction of justice.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_23: Right, and that's not our purvey.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_20: And Senator, there was also the third point of the Ethics Committee that uh there was also some um uh understanding that uh Senator Packwood might have used his personal position for personal gain as well.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_20: That was also in the statement from the Ethics Committee.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_20: I want to go now to Tom Lykis, who joins us via the MCI Cyberright from New Orleans.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_20: Tom uh is known to many of you as a radio talk show host, uh heard across the nation.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_20: Tom, what's your question?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_08: Well, first of all, I want to make a comment about the last caller.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_08: I find it fascinating that a caller would uh believe there's a conspiracy against Bob Packwood.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_08: While we have heard over the last couple of years charges from people like Paula Jones, Jennifer Flowers, calls for Whitewater hearings, ridiculous questions as to whether Vince Foster was murdered.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_08: Uh nobody ever seems to think these are conspiracies against Democrat Bill Clinton.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_08: The minute a Republican is in the barrel, there's a conspiracy to get rid of it.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_08: It's outrageous.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_23: Well, there's no can there was no conspiracy as I indicated before.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_23: I think that's a preposterous charge.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_23: It doesn't even justify further comment.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_23: Anybody that would say there was a conspiracy when we had Republican members of equal number on the committee just doesn't make sense.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_23: It's simply nonsense.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_23: I'm not even going to comment further.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_20: All right.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_20: And Senator, we also have some concerns in our audience here.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_20: Uh Minna from New York is concerned that maybe there's a double standard being applied.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_14: It certainly seems that way.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_20: What makes you think that?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_14: Well, um I'll pass.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_20: Okay.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_20: Earlier we were talking to Minna, and she was concerned that in other cases where there have been reports made, allegations made against other senators, that it has not resulted in in this sort of activity uh in a full ethics committee investigation.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_20: Can you respond to the concern that there may be a double standard applied, Senator?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_23: Well, the only way I can respond to that is the Senate Ethics Committee responds uh by inquiring, making inquiries regarding matters that are brought before it.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_23: Um and I don't think comparing and contrasting uh uh the incidents of any other senator are are relevant.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_23: If if in fact there's an incident brought to our attention about another senator, we investigate it.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_23: And if we find that in the inquiry, in the preliminary inquiry, that uh uh that which is part of the process of the committee, that there is justification to pursue it, we pursue it.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_23: Uh we don't link cases or compare and contrast cases.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_23: We make our decisions based on the facts before us.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_20: All right.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_20: Senator, we're gonna have to say goodbye to you for now.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_20: We thank you for joining us today.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_20: Thank you.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_20: Coming up next, Senator Barbara Boxer.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_20: She led the charge against Bob Packwood.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_20: Your chance to talk back to her coming up right after this.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_09: It's unacceptable.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_09: Unacceptable in any workplace in America.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_09: Unacceptable.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_20: I think if there is an expulsion from the Senate without an open hearing?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_17: Well, I think the best way would have been to have hearings.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_17: We've always had them in every case in Senate history.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_17: Why they didn't want them in this case, we could speculate about.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_17: But the main thing is that I think I put the focus on this case.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_17: I really honestly believe had I not done that, this could have been swept under the rug with just a reprimand.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_17: So clearly, I think what I did was the right thing, and I intend to read all of the information.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_17: We have books and books of information, depositions, reports, and I'll be prepared to vote on the committee recommendation.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_20: Senator, I have to add here though that Senator McConnell and Senator Bryan, who were speaking earlier from the Ethics Committee, were saying this was not because of what's happened in the last couple of weeks.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_20: This isn't because Bob Packwood said that he wanted to have open hearings.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_20: This wasn't because of the two women who came in with later testimony.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_20: This is because what we've been hearing in the past, and you're not buying it.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_20: Do you feel that it was more an issue of your pressure and public pressure and the possibility of open hearings that drove the ethics committee to do this?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_17: I have to tell you that I have great respect for what they said.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_17: But I also know very clearly that at the time I offered my amendment, the committee was really looking at a reprimand, a censure, a slap on the wrist, perhaps stripping Senator Packwood of his chairmanship, but that was being debated.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_17: There was never, ever talk of expulsion.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_17: And I do believe when the woman came forward who had been a minor at the time, it changed this case.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_17: I think when we went home to our state, people came up to us and said, there has to be justice in this case.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_17: I really do believe Senator Packwood's attitude during the break where he went on television and he attacked his victims, where he changed his position on public hearings, uh was very erratic.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_17: And I do believe it had an impact.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_20: All right, Senator, we have lots of questions coming to you.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_20: Uh Steve is manning our CompuServe line today, and he says that there's a question from one of the CompuServe contributors.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, Senator Boxer, um, someone on CompuServe asked a question Do you think that the President of the United States should be held to the same standards as the Senate Ethics Committee?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_17: I definitely believe that if a president during the course of his service engages in any type of sexual misconduct, Clearly that's an issue to be taken up.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_17: But the fact is I have responsibility only for the United States Senate.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_17: And if you're referring obliquely to President Clinton, you know that there is a court case that is pending, and it is separate and apart from my responsibility, which involves the United States Senate.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_17: Okay.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_20: Senator, we have Joanne on the telephone line now from Nevada.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_20: Joanne, go ahead with your question.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_28: Uh yeah, Senator Boxer, I am so surprised, I'm enraged that a female could put on such a campaign against a senator, a man who has spent most of his life in public office helping the people of Oregon.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_28: I I can't understand how woman can come up and allege, or even if he had written down in the diary, that he did these things with them, that they didn't consent.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_20: It would I think we lost Joanne there.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_20: Senator, I think the other part of that issue, and Joanne did not say it explicitly, but Senator Packwood in the past had been known as a real champion uh for many women's issues.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_17: Well, let me try to answer it this way.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_17: We have a code of ethics in the United States Senate, and it doesn't apply only to people who do not support women or who do support women.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_17: In other words, our philosophy and the way we vote and the issues that we champion have nothing to do with the fact that we have to live up to a certain code of ethics.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_17: And it seems very clear that Senator Packwood did not.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_17: Now, why do I say that?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_17: Because on a six to zero vote, Republicans and Democrats came together and said that he should be expelled.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_17: And before that, they found credible substantial evidence of wrongdoing.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_17: And to make another point, people focus on the sexual misconduct, which he said were just kissing women.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_17: Well, uh, that's not what the ethics committee says.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_17: The ethics committee says there was physical coercion, that most of these women depended on Senator Packwood for their jobs, and also the other areas are uh altering evidence, which is a criminal situation.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_17: And the other is trying to get his former wife a job from lobbyists who had business before the committee.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_17: Now the committee found that there may well be criminal violations, and they voted six to zero to forward those to the Justice Department.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_17: So I'm required to do.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_17: I mean, that is that is their requirement.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_17: Well, they're required to forward them if they believe criminal violations existed, and they did six to nothing.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_17: Okay.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_20: I want to bring uh back uh from the MCI Cyber rig.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_20: Tom Likas, you may know him, Senator Boxer, from your home state.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_20: Uh Tom is a radio talk show host in California normally, but is joining us today from New Orleans.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_20: Tom.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_08: Well, first of all, Senator Boxer, on behalf of all the people of my state of California, I want to thank you for hanging in there with the Ethics Committee and uh getting this whole packwood situation to the point where it is now.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_08: But I wanted to ask you about uh Senator McConnell.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_08: We're seeing him on the news today here on CNN uh making these statements about how this had to be done and what have you.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_08: Uh this was not always uh uh so certain in Senator McConnell's mind.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_08: What did you have to go through with Senator McConnell uh to get to this poll?
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_17: Well, it's uh been a very difficult situation in many ways.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_17: And I'm not just saying for me, uh, but Senator Packwood, because he did not resign and because he decided to fight this thing, has of course put the Senate through a difficult time, but so be it.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_17: My view was this case should be treated as every other case in Senate history, that there should be public hearings when you get to this point in the case where there's been credible substantial evidence of wrongdoing.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_17: The ethics committee under Mitch McConnell was not going in that direction.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_17: The Democrats wanted the hearings, the Republicans did not.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_17: It was a 3-3 deadlock, and they were stymied.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_17: I was essentially threatened and intimidated into backing off and not getting involved in the situation.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_17: But I have to tell you, if you read the Constitution, Article 1, Section 5, it says that we must in fact get involved in disciplining our own members.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_17: And when I saw this going the other direction, I got involved.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_17: And you know why I think we won this uh that this thing got the attention it deserved?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_17: Because we went home to a break, and the citizens of our states told us that it's outrageous the way this is being handled, and I think that really helped turn the corner.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_20: Senator, we're gonna have to take a break here.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_20: We're gonna come back and talk about what happens next in the Bob Packwood saga.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_20: Stay tuned, welcome back to Talk Back Live as we wrap up here.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_20: Senator Boxer, I want to return to you and ask you now that all this has happened, there is a lot of uh pressure going on apparently now in Washington to try to get Senator Packwood to resign before the expulsion vote comes up.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_20: What do you think is going to happen next?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_17: Oh, it's so hard for me to predict what Senator Packwood would do.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_17: I advised him early on to resign.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_17: I still think that's the best thing to do given the situation because it's going to take so much time and we have many other things to do.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_17: We'll have to work it in and do our best, but it would be best if he resigned.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_17: That's my concern.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_20: If he if he if he does resign, he does get the benefits, the pension.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_20: Uh they're talking about an estimate of$89,000 a year in pension money that he would get.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_20: Would you be concerned that if he resigns, he gets to walk away and still get those benefits?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_20: I think we'll look at that.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_17: But the point right now is that he has lost really the authority uh to be in the United States Senate.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_17: That's to me the issue before us.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_17: And it would be far better if he were to resign.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_17: That's my own view.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_17: I said that two years ago.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_17: I say it today.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_20: And the other issues will follow.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_20: All right, Senator, thank you very much for joining us.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_20: Unfortunately, a short program today, and we have so much to talk about.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_20: But we do want to thank our guest, Senator Barbara Boxer.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_20: Also earlier, Senator Robert Smith, who joined us, and also from the Cyber Egg Tom Light has announced.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_04: This happens with increasing frequency these days.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_04: The victimizer is now claiming the mantle of the victim.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: The one who deliberately abused the process now wants to manipulate it to his advantage.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_07: That won't wash to resign after the ethics committee decides he should be thrown out.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_07: Thus he has no plans to resign.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_07: Ethics Committee Chairman Mitch McConnell says that would be the most dignified way for him to go.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_07: Well, one way or another, the panel wants Packwood out.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_07: And today, McConnell explained why.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_07: Let's go to Capitol Hill and CNN's Candy Crowley.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_16: Bernie, the tension is palpable up here.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_16: It has been going on all day long.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_16: The Senate Ethics Committee this morning released ten volumes of documents, all of which led them to believe as a compilation that Senator Bob Packwood needs to be expelled from the Senate if he will not leave.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_16: There are many emotions.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_16: A number of senators expressed shock.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_16: Some of them are saddened.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_16: But when the chairman and the vice chairman of the ethics committee came before the microphones, it was clear that their primary emotion right now is anger.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_04: The committee has heard enough.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_04: The Senate has heard enough.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_04: The public has heard enough.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_04: The evidentiary record weighing in, as I said, at 40 pounds and 10,145 pages, is here for everyone to see.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_04: Now is the time for justice.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_09: This is the atomic bomb.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_09: We can do no more than to expel a member and to refer this conduct to the uh Justice Department.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_16: We have not seen Senator Packwood today, although Senator Dole, the majority leader and a close friend of Senator Packwood, did meet with the Senator and is expected to meet with him again sometime this afternoon.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_16: Packwood has said previously that he will weigh his options.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_16: And although he has said repeatedly he will not resign, he did leave the door open for a change of heart sometime in the future.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_16: And while many senators think the graceful thing for Packwood to do would be to resign, others say they still want a little more time to judge him.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_16: Again, the overriding emotion here right now still seems to be one of shock.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_16: Very few people up here expected the ethics committee to vote unanimously to expel the senator.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_16: Bernie?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_07: Candy, behind the scenes, what?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_07: What was the final straw?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_16: You know, the ethics committee members say it really wasn't one thing, it was just the totality of the evidence against the senator.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_16: And many of those on the ethics committee say they hadn't made up their mind in June and May that they really thought he ought to be expelled.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_16: However, a lot of people outside the ethics committee say that they really feel that in the recess, that is the time between uh when the ethics committee got two additional women came forward and uh a couple of days ago, that's when Senator Packwood changed his mind about public hearings.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_16: He first said he didn't want them.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_16: Over the recess, he said, Well, I've changed my mind.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_16: I think I do want them.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_16: This was after he had gotten a lot of his supporters and friends to come to the Senate floor and vote against those public hearings.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_16: They felt betrayed, and he began to lose support there on the outside of the committee.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_16: But the ethics committee say that had nothing to do with their decision, that they base their decision on the totality of all this information, not one specific thing.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you, Candy Crowley.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_07: There are political ramifications to backwood Senate fate that go far beyond the man himself, also on the Hill, CNN's Bob Franken, with a look at what's at stake and who stands to lose.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_32: Well, Bernie, this could not come at a worse time for the Republican agenda.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_32: The Senate Finance Committee, which uh Bob Packwood shares, is the gateway to the Senate for just about all the priority items on the Republican legislative agenda this year.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_32: Welfare reform, tax reform, Medicare reform, Medicaid, all must go to the Senate Finance Committee before they can be dealt with by the Senate.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_32: So at this particular time, the departure of the chairman of Senate Finance, at least as chairman, if not from the Senate, would be quite a disruption to say the least.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_32: And when you mix all of this into presidential politics, many Republicans feel that the stakes are high.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_13: I think it's important for Bob Dole to have a successful fall in the United States Senate as Senate Republican leader.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_13: He needs to deliver on at least a substantial part of the Republican agenda.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_13: Insofar as the PAC would matter the distraction or quits, and uh the Senate Finance Committee is in disarray for a week or two.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_13: Uh, it doesn't help the Republicans in general, but it particularly hurts Bob Dole.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_13: Because I think he needs to be able to go to the Republican primary voters and say, you know, I delivered in the Senate.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_13: I can't do in the Senate as New Cambridge did in the House.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_32: Well, that is precisely the point is for Bob Dole.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_32: Bob Dole is basing much of his presidential campaign, uh, as far as the Republican primaries are concerned, uh, on by saying that he can deliver the Republican agenda.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_32: Well, of course, now he has quite a bit of a dilemma because now he is uh going to have to finesse the Packwood situation and all of the disruptions that might come up from that.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_32: Meanwhile, Democrats, particularly those involved in the presidential campaigns, are somewhat enjoying sniping from the sidelines.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_06: You have Bob Dole, who is feeling increasing heat from the Republican right, running around the country, setting himself up as a moral leader, chastising Hollywood, chastising pr pretty much everyone for failing to meet high moral standards.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_06: He could not stand the public spectacle of continuing to defend this man who, on moral charges, is completely indefensible.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_32: So in this particular case, the pack would matter.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_32: Senator Bob Dole, the Senate majority leader, is doing what he's done a lot of this year, Bernie.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_32: He's trying to straddle without stepping into something.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_07: Bob, might the majority leader of the Senate, Bob Dole, try to wear still another hat by heading up the finance committee?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_32: Well, as a matter of fact, that is a possibility.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_32: He is listed as second ranking Republican on Senate finance.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_32: The dilemma that the Republicans have is that William Roth, who would be the person who might be assumed to take it over if Pagwood departs, is not considered as dynamic as a chairman that might be needed by the Republicans if they're going to push through their agenda.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_32: Another possibility is that, as you said, uh Senator Dole could put on another hat, and in fact, the Finance Committee chairman, majority leader, and presidential candidate.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_07: Let's go quickly to Candy Crowley on the Hill.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_16: The source says that Packwood will make his announcement after the current vote.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_16: The Senate has begun some votes on amendments in the welfare bill.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_16: The source says that the senator right now is calling friends to tell them of his decision.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_16: So again, reportedly the senator is about to resign sometime within the next 10 minutes.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_16: Bernie.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you, Candy Crowley.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_07: Please let us know when we need to come right back to you some more on this breaking story.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_07: Coming up, the leader of the Christian coalition tells what his group is doing.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_07: And Republican presidential candidate, California Governor Pete Wilson.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_07: Repeating a bulletin development just reported here on CNN by correspondent Candy Crowley.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_07: Candy Crowley has learned that Oregon Republican Senator Bob Packwood has begun to make telephone calls to France informing them of his decision to resign.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_07: CNN is tracking this very, very closely.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_07: We will update it as soon as we get more information.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_07: I'm told now, that Senator Packwood will be speaking shortly, and of course, we will take you there live.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_07: We'll be right back.