Transcript

Love Them Hoe's · Detritus

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Ho -wop. That's my own genre of music, which
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is a flavor of hip -hop, a flavor of doo -wop,
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and hoes. And I'm the king of ho -wop. Hello
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and welcome to Detritus, the podcast that sifts
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through the debris of popular culture in order
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to explore, uncover and maybe even reclaim that
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which is lost to the algorithmic rivers of time.
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I'm John Loveless, this is Jack Savage. Hello.
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How's it going? Good, thanks. And to introduce
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this not particularly watertight concept, we
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will be petitioning each other to participate
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in the act of remembrance. As Rutger Hauer's
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Roy Batty said in Blade Runner, I've seen things
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you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on
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fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watch sea beams
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glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate.
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All those moments will be lost in time, like
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tears in rain. Time to die. I mean, that's the
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direct quote. I thought you were kind of going
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to adapt it for like... for today's subject matter.
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Yeah, it's a classic bit of film dialogue and
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I thought I'd put my own spin on it. No, it's
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lovely. Do we know what the shoulder of Orion
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is and what the Tannhauser Gate is? No, but I
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think that's why the dialogue is so effective
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because the imagery, you know... It builds the
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world. It builds the world. That's what people
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like Ridley Scott for, don't they? For world
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building. And even though his films have become
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unworldly and long and sometimes boring, people
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always say, well, no, he's a good... Good world
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building. Yeah, I mean... I should say I don't
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think Blade Runner is boring or overlong. It's
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really good. Yeah, I mean, it's really tight.
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Got a lot of nice acrobatics in it. Absolutely.
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And a character called Roy Batty. Yeah, exactly.
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Like who seems to have been transplanted from
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Emmerdale or something. Yeah, sure. Strange,
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dystopian future. There's like an android called
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Roy Batty walking around. It's a good name to...
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To be able to sort of hide in plain sight amongst
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the humans of rural, you know, Lancashire. I
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don't think Blade Runner is set in rural Lancashire.
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Although that is where, no, that's not where
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Ridley Scott's from. I just thought it was because
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he directed that famous Hovis ad, you know, with
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a lad on the bike. I mean, I think so. I mean,
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I feel like I've seen a lot of like, you know,
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I know Hovis ads are very homey. There's always
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like a big plump like loaf on a flowery kind
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of chopping board. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, this
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really kind of set the template for those. But
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it did first screen in like the 60s. Yeah, that
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is now its own bit of cultural detritus. Is it
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the one where there's like a horse running through
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the streets? I kind of imagine that, that sort
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of like bucolic, sort of like working class bucolic
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atmosphere. No, it's like a little lad and he's
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on a bike and he's excited to get home to a loaf
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of bread. Simpler times. I mean, if I have a
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loaf of bread, I've got to say like, really?
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Yeah, I mean, it's the one thing that just sends
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my weight out of control. It's good when you
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get it in, though. I feel like if I get a loaf
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of bread in, then it's like a once -a -month
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treat or something. And, like, I munch through
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it. I kind of munch through it in a hail of,
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like, olive oil and butter. Yeah. And I never
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really, like, make a meal out of it. It just
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is the meal. Well, there's pressure with bread
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to finish it. before it goes stale. Especially
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if you're a man who lives alone, or, you know,
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a person who lives alone. Yeah, sure. I mean,
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that's what's good about bread. People of all
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genders eat it. I'm still coming down off our,
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like, Phantasialand trip. Oh, yeah, we had a
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podcast outing, a detritus outing. Like, the
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number of... I mean, I've had more thrills in
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those two days than I have in maybe 20 years.
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Yeah, so we went to Phantasialand. If you haven't
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guessed from the... podcasts by now basically
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theme parks and royal orchestras are one of my
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lifelong core interests and it's something that
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i've always remained interested in but floated
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away from me uh over the years but now as as
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i'm older a lot of you know my friends who are
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all you know late 30s and early 40s the joy has
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of going to a theme park as an adult uh It's
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kind of equivalent to going as a child or a teenager.
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Maybe more so because there's more, you know,
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like you're really the boss of it and you can...
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Yeah, you're dad. You can buy whatever you want
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from the gift shops. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You
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can do as you please. I mean, I still sometimes
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think, well, I can't believe I can do whatever
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I want as an adult. Do you ever feel that? I
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don't know. I think it's worn off a bit. Sometimes
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I feel like I crave a bit of structure, but I
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don't. That I don't have. I don't know, but then
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also I kind of resist structure as well. I don't
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know, maybe that would be an interesting bit
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of sociology for a... The listeners are now like,
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keep talking about the theme park, keep talking
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about the theme park. It was very good to see
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you absolutely in your element, John. Yeah, I
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mean, it is really when I'm at my most productive,
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most useful and sort of most secure, really.
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You were, you know, like just dashing off like
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complex bits of cue arithmetic. and timings like
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like there was absolutely nothing it was a real
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joy to see yeah I mean obviously I myself I'm
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not formally autistic but many in the many in
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the theme park world are right okay yeah and
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that you know I've been into theme parks since
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I was a child and It's a really diverse world
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now, which I think I've already spoken about
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on the podcast. But yeah, there's a lot of neurodivergence
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in it. And I think the reason, I believe the
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reason that is, is because there is kinetic energy
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and like movement, but there's also a lot of
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order and it's quite kind of predictable. Like
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when we were on several of the coasters, just
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watching them dispatch. at, like, 40 -second
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intervals is very satisfying. And that's what
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allows me to do the cue arithmetic. Right, okay,
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interesting. And stuff like that. Yeah, I mean,
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Phantasialand is near Cologne in a place called
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Brühl, and it's probably the second most notable
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German theme park after Europa Park. And it's
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a fascinating park because it's... It's oddly
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small for a major theme park, and it doesn't
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really have much space to expand, as I detailed
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to you as we walked the perimeter of it. Yeah,
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no, but tell me more. Yeah, so it's kind of landlocked,
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but what's interesting about it is they've really
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thrown themselves into intensely themed worlds,
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and the worlds there kind of sit in their own
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little areas, and in the case of some of them,
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you sort of don't see them until you're within
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them. And so, yeah, it's a very fantastical environment.
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Would you agree? Yeah, it's very tightly self
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-contained and you don't really see what you're
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entering. You know, each zone is kind of quite
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isolated from its... from its sort of neighbor.
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I guess because they're actually very closely
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packed together and it's kind of tiny, isn't
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it? Yeah, I mean, the park's really small. There's
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a lot of big partition walls, like probably that
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contain some kind of ride or something that you
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have to sort of pass through underneath in order
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to get to the next zone. There's like a big reveal
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in a few places. Yeah, but it's not like, I feel
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like there's some, I don't know. I mean, I'm
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casting my mind back, but I feel like a lot of
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places in the UK are. they have almost like a
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surplus of space. Yes, there's nothing like that.
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And it takes like an hour to walk across the
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whole body thing. I mean, Phantasialand's quite
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unique. Like when Americans go there even, they're
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really impressed by the density of it and the,
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yeah, the level of the theming. It's, yeah, it's
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a really interesting park. The areas, the themed
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areas are sort of like a steampunk one called
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Ruhlbe, which you turned records around. You
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look genuinely like really. I, yeah, I was amazed.
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I mean, it was, you know, it's like a rusty iron
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thing. Yeah, it's like steampunk there is not
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the internet fad, or if you will, the crisis
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that it was 15 years ago. It's a living area.
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You can stay in a little steampunk themed hotel,
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which I've done in the past. But when I... I
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did resist their offer to pay 90 euros to dress
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up as an actual steampunk for the time that you
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stayed. Right, okay. I mean, they should be paying
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you for that. Yeah, sure. I mean, have you ever
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aspired to have a job in a theme park? Well,
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yeah. You know, when things have been difficult
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professionally, which they have recently, unfortunately,
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I've just thought, why don't I just... Being
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one of those, like, the bachelor on the Royal
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Orchestra where you're like, hello, how many?
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Two? Row three, please. How many? Okay, just
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stay there. Just one, three of you. If they're
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free, come forward. There you go, row two, please.
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And, like, working politely but with efficiency,
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I think, God, that's a great way to spend your
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day. Right, yeah. Because it's... It's, you know,
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it's sort of me and your work. And also you get
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to impart the odd fact about the roller coaster.
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Well, the amount of, they're called foozies,
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is what they call theme park enthusiasts. And
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I mean, we ran into one guy that was in a sort
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of parody T -shirt. I mean, I was going to say
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that was kind of the highlight of your weekend.
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I just couldn't believe that there's the brand
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Antisocial Social Club, which is quite a well
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-known brand. I, yeah, you see, he was wearing
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a very niche, so niche I won't even explain it,
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roller coaster reference of that. And I, you
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know, I went up to him and I was like, God, where
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did you get that? And his wife just had a look
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of like, oh my God, there's another one of them
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here. Yeah, you ran about 200 meters. I did.
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To shake this man by the hand. It was basically
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the equivalent of when, you know, a child. walks
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into Disneyland, at least on an advert for Disneyland,
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and sees Mickey Mouse and they run down Main
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Street towards him. Except for me, it was just
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like a balding German in a niche T -shirt he
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bought off redbubble .com. Right. Did you guys
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exchange Instagram handles? No, he just gave
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me the address of the company from which he got
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the T -shirt. Okay, right. And your... I bought
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it. It's arrived. I bought it yesterday, yeah.
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Okay, nice. I bought it yesterday. Well, that's
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going to, you know, someone's going to run and
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it'll cost you like... who sees you in it and
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the chain is going to continue. Yeah, that will
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be a nice moment. I guess I suppose, I do know
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even within our music and DJing world, quite
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a few foozies now. Right. You know, they're all
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coming out of the woodwork. Really? Name names.
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My mate Rhys Bigleg, who I'm sure will guest
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on the show in the future. He was at Phantasialand
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just a few days ago after we were. My mate Tom,
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Tom Granger. I can't out these people. They might
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not want people to know. My mate Lenny, of course.
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But he's more of a Disney guy. He's worse. He's
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a Disney adult. Oh, he's a Disney adult. Yeah,
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I can see it. I think he merges more to Disney
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adult. Euro Disney, though, probably. Yeah. Yeah,
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I mean, I feel like... What Disneyland Paris
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is, it's now called, and has been for 25 years.
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It's nice when you get an old school Euro Disney
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invention. I think Euro Disney is a better name.
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It didn't work for them. It didn't work for them
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at all. It didn't have a romance of Paris. It
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sounded, I guess, too EU. It sounded too Brussels.
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Right, right. So that's when Europa Park swooped.
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No, Europa Park were already stealing their ideas.
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Okay, because they're very pro -EU. I mean, they're
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very pro -EU, but they also have a mouse mascot.
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Yeah, Phantasialand doesn't really have any of
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that. It's sort of a mysterious place. There's
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some dragon mascots who we saw a few of in the
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different areas. A bit light on characterisation
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though, isn't it? There's a lot of things missing.
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The merch fair isn't very good. The whole park
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is full of strange arbitrary rules and the customer
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service is absolutely dreadful. However, there's
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good food. The rides are all bangers. The other
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areas are Klugheim, which is a kind of Game of
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Thrones rip -off where we enjoyed a cheese board
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in a kind of like Lord of the Rings pub. Yeah,
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you knew exactly where to find that cheese board
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and what it would contain. It was impressive.
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It was as good as I remember. Yeah, it was. It
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fed five of us. Yeah, no, it was huge. And then
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there's Mexico. And then more uncomfortably,
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the deep in Africa area. I mean, we were already
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staying in a sort of pan -Asian themed hotel.
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That felt okay to me. But the African area and
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the African hotel, which has been the study of
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PhDs at like universities in Cologne and has
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been national news. especially, you know, since
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Black Lives Matter and perhaps conversations
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about representation. Yeah, not only did they
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always go in hard on the African area, but they
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literally expanded it last year. Yeah, I mean,
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it's so obviously stereotyping and so kind of
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lazy that it would be... I don't know, it would...
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I mean, I personally, like, consider it to be...
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I have different rules for theme parks than I
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do for, for example... Film, music or literature.
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I don't care in a way. Yeah, I don't know. I
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think it says something about what the main audience
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for a theme park is. It's got to be broad as
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possible. Yeah, I agree. But also these are things
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that usually have their origins in like the 70s
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and 80s and like, Lord knows they aren't going
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to bulldoze this cash cow in order to sort of
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change it. Well, the most interesting case of
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this is Disney's log flume ride, Splash Mountain,
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that exists across the world. Oh, yeah, like
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Song of the South. Yeah, it's based on Song of
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the South. Now, Song of the South has basically
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been deleted from Disney's back catalogue because
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of its racial stereotyping. It was made in the
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60s, but it feels like it's got like the ultimate
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kind of Uncle Tom. black protagonist in it, like
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kind of the original magical black guy. The guy
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who sings Zip -A -Dee -Doo? Yeah, him, Uncle
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Rebus, yeah. Okay. And, you know, I watched it
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as a kid and I don't think it turned me racist.
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However, yeah, it feels like well dodgy. And
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even when they built Splash Mountain, Disney
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knew that and they kind of slowly like hidden
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it from their library. But the fact is the songs
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in the film are... uh upbeat and good and it's
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got lots of fun cartoon characters in it as well
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it's a kind of hybrid between animation and live
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action um so you know that ride was open for
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30 years but because of you know the internet
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and you know what we rely on for this podcast
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people over time became aware of the origins
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of it or kids will get off it and say you know
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what was that based on because nowadays disney
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basically prefer to base things on existing intellectual
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properties. Or they make intellectual properties
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out of rides, like Pirates of the Caribbean and
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Horn Dimension. So this stuck out like a sore
15:18
thumb, and they got rid of that, and now that's
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based on The Princess and the Frog, which is
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the Disney animation that does have a black protagonist
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in it. Yeah, so Disney did that, but... Now,
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you know, the mysterious family who run Phantasialand,
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they've just doubled down, man. They've like
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expanded the African era. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which
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is, you know, let's face it, just extremely German.
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Yeah, I mean, that like, that band who sort of,
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who play pretty much all day. Yeah, like free,
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you know, African musicians just jamming all
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day long to nobody. And that, yeah, that made
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me just feel a bit sad, to be honest with you.
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Yeah. Hard one to pass, I think. I think, yeah,
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you know, it's not that hard to pass. I think
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it's wrong. However, I really like Royal Coasters,
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so I'm going to keep going. Well, yeah, and I
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mean, that's, I think, what is hard to pass.
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Like, why does this kind of, why do these engineering
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marvels have to be in these kind of themed worlds
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where they make everyone feel a bit uncomfortable?
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Or maybe not everyone, but... I don't think everyone
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feels uncomfortable. But I mean, you know, you
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arrive later than everyone else. And when you
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saw the... all -day jamming African trio, you
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pulled the same face that pretty much everyone
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did. Right, right, yeah, yeah. But welcome to
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the Theme Park crew, Jack. No, thanks very much.
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Yeah, I feel like I've caught rollercoaster nerd
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off you a bit. I've spent the whole week watching,
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like... Yeah. And not the kind I usually watch.
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Yay! There you go. Thanks very much. Thank you.
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I was working on that. Nice. But yeah, I don't
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know. There is something pretty exciting about
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it. I don't think I want to go every day. I mean,
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you wanted to do a podcast live from Fantasyland
17:05
before we got there, and surely now having been,
17:07
you realise that that would have been... Well,
17:11
I think we could have fit it in, but yeah, it's
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a full -on place. Well, you know, I suppose...
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I did spend an hour in the bar just like complaining
17:18
in the evening and that is pretty much... That
17:20
was the podcast. That's what we could have done.
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I mean, you know, we could have been interviewing
17:24
people just coming off rides. I did like when
17:27
you were informing just members of the public
17:29
about certain facts about roller coasters. Did
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I? Yeah, yeah. I must go into a fugue state because
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I... Yeah, I don't... Not only because I'm perhaps
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still doing my best self, and maybe it's the
17:40
same thing, but my corniest self, because I don't
17:43
remember doing that, and yet I believe you. You
17:45
informed the two ladies in front of us in the
17:49
Taron queue that this was the longest queue in
17:51
the world. Oh, that was on fly, yeah. Because
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they kind of went ahead, or we went ahead of
17:58
them, and I wanted to make sure that they knew
18:00
we weren't queue jumping because there was like
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a mile of queue to go. Yeah, no, it's good to
18:04
keep your fellow rider informed with what's going
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on. Yeah, I imagine that really added to their
18:08
day, and they're probably talking about it, and
18:10
me, even now. I mean, I think it deepens the
18:12
appreciation of it. I certainly enjoyed learning
18:15
a lot about roller coasters. Sure. And am I giving
18:19
away my novice status by calling them roller
18:21
coasters? Just coasters is fine, I suppose. Yeah,
18:25
no, I feel like you always use coasters. Yeah,
18:27
but I mean, with the amount I, you know, say
18:29
it. I need to find a succinct way of moving through
18:33
the world. Well, the whole community does, doesn't
18:35
it? What would be the equivalent of me, you know,
18:39
accompanying you? Would it be going... Do I now
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have to go to watch the cricket? Yeah, you have
18:44
to come and watch county cricket. I'm sorry.
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Yeah, I know. I feel like that is the thing I
18:48
can't fucking shake off. There's nothing in county
18:52
cricket that is... Well, maybe like, you know,
18:56
a really well -earned victory, but think about
18:58
that second launch on the Tarim ride. I think,
19:01
but you're forgetting about the day, you know,
19:03
like there's sun and there's like... Yeah, you
19:05
can have some pints. You have some pints and
19:07
you can just while the day away, you know...
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I suppose it's good value, right? You can take
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a picnic. It's all right. It's like 20 quid.
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Because you don't, it can go and go, right? Yeah.
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I mean, if it goes to the next stage, you have
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to buy another ticket. Well, you probably would
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only go for one day unless you're a complete
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mat. Have you ever been for two? I've been to
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all four days of a county cricket game. Damn,
19:27
man. Yeah, that's fucking bleak. And you look
19:29
around and the other people who are in this,
19:32
you know, the stadiums are. Say, like, if you
19:35
go to the Oval, it holds something like 26 ,000
19:38
people. And on my county cricket day, it will
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have a crowd of about 1 ,000, if you're lucky.
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Yeah, whenever I see it on television, I always
19:45
think... There's fuck all people there. And usually
19:48
that's a final. It seems drastically under -attended.
19:51
Yeah, like the other people who go. Do you know
19:54
what I mean? It's really people who've, like,
19:55
lost their way in life. It's like future me.
19:59
Okay, right. It's kind of, you know, like...
20:02
just strange elder men filling in like there's
20:06
some of those in the theme pop world as well
20:07
yeah I mean I think they're probably remarkably
20:10
similar yeah maybe you know there's a there's
20:12
like a I think there's there's like a preponderance
20:14
of interest in like facts and stuff Sorry, stats.
20:18
Yeah, it's a very stats -based. How many Gs are
20:20
you pulling on this turn? What's the top speed?
20:23
What's the acceleration? For that, that's like,
20:26
what's this guy's career average? What speed
20:32
is the bowler propelling this ball? In fact,
20:34
speed is not really a big thing in county cricket
20:37
because if you're... So even the thing that might
20:39
be exciting about it isn't a part of it. If you're
20:43
consistently bowling like... 18 .5 miles an hour,
20:47
then you're probably getting upstreamed into
20:48
international cricket. I see. And you'll be rarely
20:51
seen on the county scene again. So it's like
20:54
a big kind of, you know, it's a big melting pot
21:00
for people who are trying to get to the top and
21:03
the people who have just accepted that this is
21:06
their level. I had a cab driver a while ago in
21:08
Berlin who explained to me that he was a German
21:13
Pakistani guy. and he was on the German national
21:16
cricket team. No way. But he was an Uber driver.
21:19
Right. He was an Uber driver for most of the
21:21
year, and then for two or three months in the
21:23
year would travel to Australia or train. I don't
21:29
know how much Germany played. Not much, from
21:32
what I could gather from chatting to this guy,
21:35
who was also an Uber driver. I respect him. Imagine
21:38
if, you know, who the classic British... The
21:42
only cricket players I can think of is Shane
21:44
Ward. Shane Warne. Oh yeah, Shane Ward was the
21:47
X Factor winner. By the way, that's the second
21:49
time Shane Ward has been mentioned on this podcast.
21:51
It's been three episodes. Right, okay. Themes
21:53
are coming to light here. Theme parks, X Factor.
21:56
Which one even was he? Was he the first Shane?
21:59
I think he might have been the first one, yeah.
22:00
Yeah, yeah. Might have been the first one. You
22:03
know, like, I mean, you know, like Ian Botham.
22:05
Oh, beefy, yeah. Toughers. Yeah, Phil Tufnell.
22:09
Yeah, yeah. I don't know, fucking hell. That's
22:12
a bleak world of like... And they all do that
22:14
after dinner, after dinner speaking. Yeah, yeah,
22:17
I think they do pretty well at that. I've got
22:19
some interesting facts about Tuffers, but I don't
22:23
write, I think, there. It's a bit like off -pod.
22:27
It's a bit Patreon episode. Yeah, absolutely.
22:30
Well, there's no Patreon yet, but this is the
22:32
third episode, so if this is your first time
22:34
with us, thank you for listening, and if this
22:36
is your third, hope you're enjoying it. I'm sure
22:38
by now you've decided which one's your favourite.
22:42
All right, so... Today, let's move on to the
22:46
main event. So both of us were delighted by this
22:51
idea because it is absolute perfect detritus.
22:54
This is exactly the tackle we're seeking. However,
22:58
we very quickly realized that we needed to just
23:03
expunge this ASAP. It's been like a sort of self
23:08
-inflicted sort of like psychological wound.
23:11
Yeah, it's been terrible. It's been awful. So
23:14
today we are going to discuss 2003 Stroke 4's
23:19
Fuck It by Amon and subsequently Frankie's response
23:26
diss track F .U .R .B. a .k .a. Fuck You Right
23:30
Back. This episode will contain some strong language.
23:35
Yeah, what's the deal? This is Amon straight
23:36
out of Staten Island, New York City. Welcome
23:39
to Sessions at AOL. Come on in. And that's a
23:51
good point to begin on because, yeah, there is
23:56
a lot of strong language in this. This, Fuck
24:01
It By Eamon, was number one in the UK, America,
24:05
and everywhere for fucking ages. It was one of
24:12
those really inescapable pieces of music. It's
24:16
really hard to sort of... like feel remember
24:19
how kind of present it was because it's just
24:21
nowhere now is it yeah no one's playing that
24:24
like and also it has no i can't think of a single
24:29
context in which it would be appropriate to put
24:31
it on no it's it's it's dreadful it's not even
24:36
it's not even fun it's not you know it's not
24:39
it's like a novelty hit that's not that has no
24:41
no you know it has no kind of um It's not even
24:45
funny shit. No. It's really… It's really kind
24:49
of… I wouldn't say sentimental. It's kind of…
24:54
It's turgid. It's kind of keening and like, I
24:59
don't know, it's really dripping with bad vibes
25:02
somehow. It's funny that you say keening because
25:04
Keem were one of the bands who in around 2004,
25:09
you know, were leading a kind of rock revolution
25:11
against this. And to, you know, flashback to
25:13
our last episode, when you hear this song, you
25:16
think to yourself, no wonder Razorlight, you
25:19
know, were making a good case for themselves,
25:20
basically. Because 2004. was a really shit year
25:25
for music. So the other hits were, just before
25:30
this, I Don't Want to Know by Mario Winans, featuring
25:33
P. Diddy and Enya, which begs the question if
25:37
Enya ever went to any of Diddy's freak -offs.
25:41
if that's where this collaboration came about.
25:43
Enya has a castle. I think she could host a really
25:45
good Freak Off. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
25:48
And in Royal Island, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:50
Why did I say it like that? Royal Island. In
25:52
Royal Island. Yeah, I mean, she... Well, people
25:56
would appreciate a Freak Off there. Yeah, she's...
25:58
Local farmers and... Yeah, I don't know. I mean,
26:01
I feel like the... I mean, I don't know whether
26:03
P. Diddy would travel all the way there, but
26:05
yeah, no, great line -up on that thing. Respect
26:08
to the... McFly. McFly's five colours in her
26:11
hair. Three of the kind's baby cakes. Which,
26:13
you can't hate that. I can. It's very... I sort
26:18
of feel like that was the... Yeah, it was like
26:19
the... It was the very tail end of UK Garage,
26:22
but it also... I remember even when that came
26:25
out, it was a bit of something slightly throwback
26:28
-y about it because it was probably three years
26:32
since like 21 Seconds or something and that was,
26:34
it was like, oh yeah, thank God, there's finally
26:37
another UK Garage. Yeah, you're right. That was
26:39
the sort of real arse end of UK Garage. One thing
26:42
I remember about that record is that the producer
26:44
of it was a photographer for The Sun. Right.
26:48
Yeah, so. He really moved up in the world. And
26:53
then the year finished with Mad World by Gary
27:00
Watts' face. That was, I mean, I feel like when
27:05
that dropped in Donnie Darko, it was really good.
27:08
Oh, it's a beautiful bit of the film. And then
27:10
when it was like a self -contained piece of music,
27:13
it was terrible. What do you associate 2004 with,
27:17
aside from gooey R &B? Well, I don't know. I
27:20
feel like I was probably quite into dance music
27:22
at the time. I was buying lots of records. I
27:24
was going to Phonica a lot. I was living in London
27:26
as a student. Well, according to your notes,
27:28
it was, and these are your words, not mine. It
27:33
was the age of Chris Moyles, Birdselector, The
27:35
College Dropout, Golden Touch, Goldie Looking
27:38
Chain, Nighty Night, and The Mighty Boosh. And
27:40
you left one out there. Yeah, I left one out
27:42
because A, I don't know how to pronounce it,
27:45
and B, I... don't know what it is. So what is
27:48
it? It's like the second Ricardo Villalobos album.
27:52
The O Harambe Market? First of all... Graham
27:55
knows what I'm talking about, right? Graham,
27:58
do you know this? Have you ever heard Ricardo
28:01
Villalobos' The O Harambe Comedies? The second
28:06
Ricardo Villalobos album? No, I'll be honest.
28:09
it's kind of it's very like does that really
28:11
sit alongside both selector and goldie looking
28:15
chain i was trying to find one record that i
28:18
really liked from that period from that year
28:20
and i couldn't really find it because it's like
28:22
it's it's sort of two years after losing my edge
28:26
it's like Yeah, 2004 was a wasteland of culture.
28:32
It was a bad year. It's interesting, but also
28:34
YouTube hasn't really come in. I think YouTube
28:36
was 2005. MySpace was probably knocking around
28:41
2005, 2006. Yeah, Bebo, early bit, yeah. So yeah,
28:44
one thing that's notable about Frankie, where
28:46
Eamon will come to bloody Frankie, is that, yeah,
28:52
it was a track that... was everywhere like for
28:57
months and it was number one in the UK it was
29:01
number one in America inexplicably it sold more
29:03
copies in the UK than it did in America it outsold
29:07
600 ,000 to 500 ,000 and the only the only record
29:13
that beat it in the UK in sales was the 2004
29:19
version of Do They Know It's Christmas which
29:21
again is terrible and you know That at least
29:26
had the unforgettable sight of Joss Stone weeping
29:29
when she realised what famine was and potentially
29:32
even what Africa was. Right, yeah. God, I've
29:35
forgotten about Joss Stone. Again, I'm going
29:38
to stop us going down that wormhole because I
29:41
think there could be a Joss Stone detritus. There's
29:44
a lot going on there. Yeah. But, you know, her
29:47
cover of, yeah, another 2004 memory, her covering
29:51
Fell in Love with a Girl by the White Stripes
29:54
in like a soul lounge style. Right, definitely
29:57
on Radio 1 live lounge. Live lounge covers of,
30:01
oh, a rock band doing an R &B record and whatnot.
30:05
Like that was the sort of thing that was gripping
30:09
the nation at this time. And I was like 15, 16,
30:12
so I was beginning to realise. all of this was
30:15
shit and looking elsewhere. However, in the case
30:18
of Eamon, it was impossible to escape this record.
30:22
I think this was number one for four weeks. And
30:25
yeah, the response track, which we'll get to,
30:27
was number one for three weeks. So this occupied
30:30
two months worth of acreage in terms of music
30:37
radio. And it was everywhere, which is inexplicable
30:40
because the song has the... the word fuck in
30:44
it constantly throughout. It's called Fuck It
30:47
and that is blanked out. It's not bleeped out,
30:49
but it's blanked out. And yeah, the song is Eamon
30:53
complaining really about an ex, a little bit
30:58
about Eamon. He's from New York. His mother was
31:02
an Italian -American nurse and his father was
31:05
a counsellor of Irish descent. Yeah, the Italian
31:09
-American -Irish crossover isn't quite that common.
31:12
That's the nightmare of Christopher Moltisanti
31:15
on The Sopranos. Yeah, I was going to say that
31:17
it sort of reminds me of like, it's quite season
31:20
two of The Wire, like sort of Baltimore, like,
31:22
I don't know, like real knuckleheads kind of,
31:26
like sensitive knuckleheads being wronged. Yeah,
31:29
the video is... And sort of like lashing out
31:31
in really the worst way. You're like, it really,
31:34
it kind of reminds me of, I don't know. A different
31:38
kind of masculinity. Well, yeah, quite combustible
31:42
masculinity. Combustible masculinity, definitely.
31:44
He should have called his album that. You know,
31:46
it's someone who's going to start using the F
31:51
word and the H word in a restaurant at high volume.
31:54
Actually, I was going to say that I think that
31:56
fuck isn't the most important. I don't think
32:00
it's the most revolutionary word in that song.
32:02
Well, I'll go through the lyrics now. It's the
32:05
appearance of the word ho in the hit parade.
32:10
Fuck what I said. It don't mean shit now. Fuck
32:13
the presents. Might as well throw them out. Fuck
32:15
all those kisses. They didn't mean jack. Fuck
32:18
you, you ho. I don't want you back. So that is
32:21
the chorus to the song, which repeats again and
32:24
again and again. There's no resolution on this
32:26
record. Eamon is just really angry. The video,
32:30
I realised that it is a big video record and
32:32
I'd see it a lot on MTV in the box and things
32:35
like that. And clearly the video is a big component
32:38
of the release because it depicts Eamon in happier
32:43
times with the woman who, I presume he wasn't
32:48
calling a hoe at the time, but he was taking
32:51
on wintry river cruises. And then it cuts to
32:54
colour. And the conversations they're having
32:58
at like a sort of traditional Italian -American
33:00
pizza joint, checkered tables and a big pepperoni.
33:04
And, you know, they can't. That's when he storms
33:07
off, storms off with his friends. And, you know,
33:10
those bits are all in color. And it does have,
33:14
you know, quite a cinematic feel. Yeah, it reminded
33:19
me of, yeah, the early seasons of The Sopranos,
33:22
actually, in terms of the cinematography. Although
33:25
I should stress, not really. And it's obviously,
33:29
you know, nowhere near as good or insightful.
33:32
I mean, you know, come on. No, no, yeah, no,
33:35
it is quite bad. Yeah, and it kind of introduced
33:42
something that Eamon calls ho -wop. This was
33:47
supposed to be, and you came across this. Yeah.
33:50
Ho -Wop was his genre, a musical sound that he
33:56
was trying to forge and did, arguably. In his
33:59
own words, like I was watching an interview with
34:02
him and he says that he's explaining to a German
34:04
interviewer, it's like, Ho -Wop is my genre.
34:07
It's a flavour of hip -hop, a flavour of doo
34:09
-wop and hoes. So, yeah. Sure. It's kind of like...
34:13
An ambitious attempt to meld the classy swing
34:15
of American big band heritage with the casual
34:18
misogyny of just some fucking idiot. Exactly.
34:21
Yeah. And boy, I mean, I really think when this
34:26
hit, he must have known that it was going to
34:29
be... I mean, it was number one in Germany. It
34:33
sold a lot in Germany. It really captured the
34:35
German imagination as well. They're still mad
34:37
for Ho -op to this day. You can't walk down the
34:41
street. If you just mess around with your FM
34:44
dial, you just... Waves of ho -wop. Yeah, no,
34:47
like a ho -wop pirate station. Ho -wop being
34:50
pumped out 24 hours a day. Yeah, yeah. Ho -wop
34:53
being illegally broadcast from tower blocks.
34:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like pitch battles between
34:58
territories of who can broadcast ho -wop. I can
35:01
believe it. I can actually believe it. It's crazy,
35:03
I mean. I think the influence of ho -wop is...
35:09
Not huge. You pointed out that Sean Kingston
35:11
would probably be the... Yeah, I would say that's...
35:14
And also I feel like that, you know, I've got
35:16
a lot of time for that song. It's beautiful.
35:18
You know, Sean Kingston, Beautiful Girls. Yeah,
35:20
that's great. But you know, that has a dark...
35:21
That has a dark lyric about suicide running all
35:24
the way through. Yeah, yeah. So that's like got...
35:29
Hang on. Yeah, it's like ho -wop -goth. It's
35:32
ho -wop -goth, yeah. I don't think, no, I mean,
35:35
for me, that's ho -wop mental health crisis.
35:36
But I think what Eamon is having here is a mental
35:38
health crisis. And one thing I will give this
35:41
song and why I think it was such a success is,
35:45
you know, having a bad breakup and feeling embittered
35:48
about it is a pretty universal experience, right?
35:53
And... Yeah, I've never had a breakup bad enough
35:58
that I've written a song and scored an international
36:01
number one like this. I usually just write some
36:06
bad short fiction, talk to everyone about it
36:10
until they're sick in the teeth, get depressed,
36:12
only eat yogurt and fish and new potatoes, and
36:16
then eventually you just move on. Right. And
36:19
the song doesn't detail any of that. The song...
36:22
I'm not sure if that is as universal as what's
36:24
in the song. The song captures him in the real
36:28
fire and brimstone of anger and regret. And I
36:31
found an interview with him from a few years
36:35
ago where he claims that really the song is like
36:38
against himself. And actually he was sort of
36:42
deliberately casting himself in a bad light.
36:48
So he's accusing himself of being, in this case,
36:51
the ho. Look, not only did I forget to put this
36:56
quote into our document that we look at for this,
36:58
but I don't think he knows what he's talking
37:03
about either. I don't trust him as a source on
37:05
his own material. Yeah. I mean, many great artists
37:09
don't really know what they have. Yeah, I mean,
37:11
he's an auteur, but, you know, it's open to interpretation
37:14
here, definitely. Because it is a raw record.
37:17
It's very raw. He, like in... In the interview,
37:22
he went on to say he was being asked about hoes
37:26
and like his meaning of hoe. And he was like,
37:28
well, in my eyes, everyone's a hoe apart from
37:31
your mother. I see. Like the interviewer's mother.
37:36
I think he meant one's mother. One's mother.
37:39
It comes across like he's saying to the interview,
37:41
your mum's the one non -hoe in this world. So
37:44
the only way you can get away with not being
37:47
a hoe is give... birth to a son who declares
37:52
you not to be a home i think he's more saying
37:54
that everyone's trying to i don't know like different
37:59
times really yeah i don't know i mean maybe i
38:02
don't know i think he's just he i think he's
38:04
maybe commenting on the doggy dog nature of of
38:07
life i think he's got quite a net i think he's
38:10
got a slightly nihilistic um view of like human
38:13
nature i think so too um I do realise at this
38:18
point, we should stress that, you know, there
38:21
are cultural and gender nuances in this song
38:25
that we, you know, let's face it, we can't speak
38:27
for. What you're getting here is unfiltered,
38:30
like, blokes chat. This is bro chat about Eamon
38:35
and about Frankie. Other sources are available.
38:38
You should consult a hoe yourself. Yeah, why
38:43
not? Yeah, because I can't really speak for all
38:46
of this. But I do feel like we have a right to
38:48
comment because we did live through this. It
38:51
was everywhere. And just when it was tailing
38:53
off, then it was time for F .U .R .B. by Frankie,
38:58
which is Fuck You Right Back. And I'm sure you
39:19
can't remember where you were when you first
39:22
heard this. I'm guessing it wasn't a seminal
39:24
moment for you. I don't remember. I think I remember.
39:26
I definitely remember the poster campaign. Like,
39:29
it was, like, you know, like, I feel like in
39:32
London there's always, you know, I wonder if
39:35
this still goes on, but, like, say big singles
39:37
have, you know, like, huge, like, poster campaigns
39:40
and it's just, like, poster after poster. Yeah,
39:42
yeah, yeah. It's a really good and obnoxious
39:44
way to get your message out. Yeah, and I think
39:45
that there would be, like, I remember this being
39:49
like a black on fluorescent colour poster, saying
39:55
F -U -R -B, Frankie. Quite cheaply done as well.
39:58
Nice. Well, this record, you described it as
40:01
cheap. I described it as obnoxious, or at least
40:03
for poster campaign. That is very fitting for
40:06
the record because it is definitely one of the
40:09
cheapest, most obnoxious things ever recorded.
40:13
I've got to say, I prefer it to Eamon. I cannot
40:17
listen to Eamon anymore and you've put me through
40:19
hell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really tested you on
40:23
the first episode of a podcast. I was like, it's
40:24
time to see if this guy is serious. Like the
40:27
Phantasialand trick was one part of it. Okay,
40:30
yeah. And now a week of Eamon and Frankie and
40:32
deep dive research into it. And I'm pleased to
40:34
say you've passed. The 12 tasks of detritus.
40:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, yeah. But I do actually,
40:41
I'm okay with Frankie actually. I mean, I suppose
40:45
it's got like a scabrous, like, yeah, actual
40:48
fuck you quality about it in that it does sound
40:52
cheap. It has a strange sort of clicking, popping
40:56
rhythm on it, which is 100 % ripped off from
41:00
Drop It Like It's Hot. Right, okay, yeah. The
41:04
year before. Right, yeah, I suppose this is actually
41:07
the age of the Neptunes. Yeah, well, it is the
41:09
age of the Neptunes, and there's a slight...
41:11
attempt a Neptune's S beat there, but it misses.
41:17
The track has a video which looks cheap of Naaman's
41:20
and beautifully is now only available on YouTube
41:23
in very grainy quality, which is, again, unusual
41:27
for a record that was number one for weeks 20
41:30
years ago. Was Frankie definitely number one?
41:33
It was number one for weeks. Unfortunately, I
41:36
didn't write down the statistic, but yeah, it
41:37
was immediately number one afterwards. Frankie's
41:41
approach to Eamon's heartache is, I'd say it
41:47
lacks compassion. I think, yeah, I mean, I don't
41:52
know. She really goes for the jugular, like,
41:55
constantly. Do you know what I mean? But also,
41:57
I don't know, I suppose she's really... She's
42:00
really trying to emasculate him. It's all about
42:02
his sexual abilities. It's about sexual prowess.
42:04
And it's all about her lack of pleasure in the
42:06
bedroom. It's all about, like, you know, trying
42:10
to kind of undermine his reality. So she begins
42:14
with, see, I don't know why you're crying like
42:16
a bitch, talking shit like a snitch. It's good.
42:19
Why do you write a song about me? If you really
42:22
didn't care, you wouldn't want to share, telling
42:23
everybody just how you feel. And then there's,
42:26
you know, fuck. I'm going to have to do all of
42:29
it, aren't I? Oh my God. Okay. I do apologize.
42:33
Fuck what I did was your fault somehow. Somehow.
42:36
Somehow. You've got to have tangible evidence
42:38
of what he's done. But then I think, you know,
42:40
she's doing her own lashing out. It's quite nicely.
42:42
Do you know what I mean? It's a bit on, it's
42:44
on, it's disordered. And she does have a response
42:47
for everything. Fuck the presence. I threw all
42:48
that shit out. Fuck all the crying. It didn't
42:51
mean Jack. Well. Guess what, yo, fuck you right
42:54
back. Fuck what I did was your fault somehow.
42:56
Then she repeats, I'm not going to do it. And
42:58
then in verse two, she really, as you say, goes
43:01
for the jugular and even lower. She goes straight
43:05
into the bedroom. You thought you could really
43:07
make me lone, moan. You thought you could really
43:10
make me lone. You thought you could really make
43:13
me moan. I had better sex all alone. And then
43:17
the lyrics read, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah. Evil
43:21
insert, evil Frankie laugh here. Really twisting
43:23
the knife. I had to do your friend. Now you want
43:27
me to come back, you must be smoking crack. I'm
43:29
going elsewhere. And that's a fact. Fuck all
43:31
those nights I moaned real loud. Fuck it, I faked
43:34
it. Aren't you proud? Aren't you proud? I like
43:36
that. Aren't you proud? Yeah, yeah, it's really...
43:39
I mean, on one hand, you know, historically,
43:43
you know, female pleasure has not been centered
43:45
in these dynamics. And yeah, I suppose it's an
43:48
interesting, it's like... Yeah, it's an interesting
43:51
inversion of something like a, you know, like
43:55
a song that kind of, that lionises female pressure
43:58
or that celebrates female pressure. I would argue,
44:00
though, that she does have a responsibility to
44:03
say, look, this isn't working for me. We're into
44:05
the different stuff, you know? Right. But then,
44:08
yeah, I guess he started it. He recorded the
44:10
single. The path of true love never did run smooth.
44:13
No. I wonder if they're back together now. I
44:17
mean, I don't... What do you reckon their life
44:19
would look like if it were just living off of
44:20
royalties for this? Well, yeah, I mean, I think
44:23
it'd be all right. I think they'd probably...
44:24
I mean, they seem to be perfectly suited to each
44:27
other. Apart from the fact that he's a bad boy,
44:29
he loves smoking blunts, I'm afraid he does love
44:32
hoes. And look, that's just who he is. Yeah,
44:38
I mean, he's... He's making no... Yeah, I mean,
44:41
he's making no bones about it. He loves hoes.
44:43
And we'll actually shortly get on... just how
44:47
much he does love her. Oh, yeah. And she's a
44:51
cop, isn't she? She's a Staten Island police
44:54
officer. There's not much about Frankie. Unlike
44:56
Eamon, there's no interviews with her. I can't
44:58
find out her background or her ethnicity or anything.
45:02
I don't know. So, yeah, the only thing I can
45:06
find about her is that apparently she's a Staten
45:10
Island cop. Which I do find believable. Completely.
45:15
It's perfect. Yeah, she, you know, has had enough
45:20
of kind of being aggressive towards one man in
45:24
particular, and now she can, you know... Yeah,
45:27
she's terrorising everyone out there. Terrorising
45:29
everyone. Yeah, especially the minorities. It's
45:31
great. She's having a great time. Yeah, yeah,
45:34
yeah. Are there any other cop artists out there
45:38
you can think of? Well, Rick Ross was a... like
45:41
probation officer. Yeah. That's the only one
45:44
I can really think, I don't know, it's not much
45:46
like, there's not much of a revolving door between
45:50
the law enforcement services and pop music. The
45:54
police? Well, yeah, I mean, there you go. So
45:57
that was the best joke I had ready for this episode
45:59
and you gave me nothing. Okay. They were, I mean,
46:02
ironically, not even one of them, only one of
46:06
them was a policeman. I don't know, they, no,
46:09
I can't think of anyone else who was a policeman.
46:11
There's so much swearing on this record, it's
46:13
ludicrous. Like when you heard it on the radio,
46:16
I recall that you couldn't even figure out what
46:19
she was saying because there's so much filth
46:21
in there that it's basically an instrumental.
46:24
Yeah. But I suppose that made you want to buy
46:27
the CD in the shop and get the record so you
46:32
could understand just what vitriol she was directing
46:36
at Eamon. Also, I think this record is aimed
46:38
at 10 and 11 -year -olds. I think even for someone
46:43
who's got to secondary school, this is too silly
46:48
and too young. I think it's really about trying
46:52
to capture that demographic for whom swearing
46:56
is young and cool and something you kind of do
46:59
with your mates when you meet them outside of
47:00
your house. And it's an exciting world. I remember
47:04
when... Without Me by Eminem came out a few years
47:07
before this, and that was a mega hit, you know,
47:10
off his second album. Right. An inescapable tune.
47:14
And that obviously has some swears in it, but
47:17
there was one near the start that was blanked,
47:20
and it was, doesn't know what a woman's something
47:25
is. Yeah. And when that came out, I was 11, 12,
47:29
and I thought I knew all the bad words, all the
47:32
filth, and that one was really intriguing to
47:34
me. And my friend Chris, he had it on CD and
47:39
I was like, we have to listen to this. And of
47:40
course the word was clitoris. Right, okay. And
47:43
I still then didn't know what it was. I do now.
47:47
Okay, yeah. Just don't know where it is, mate.
47:49
That was my second best joke. Okay, sorry. Yeah,
47:52
I didn't react to that. I mean, look, I like
47:55
that you're setting a bar for me here. Okay,
47:57
yeah, yeah. Fair fucks, yeah. So, yeah, but good
48:02
in a way that he's sort of... Making reference
48:04
to someone who doesn't know what a clitoris is,
48:06
that taught you. That taught me. That was the
48:09
first time I became aware. It's a beautiful pop
48:11
music story. People accused Eminem of misogyny,
48:13
but really, in his own way, he was centering
48:16
female pleasure. Unlike Eamon. Yeah, quite right.
48:19
According to Frankie, at least. I remember when
48:21
the DJ dropped the rude version of Out Here Brothers,
48:29
Boom Boom Boom, in like our... like sixth year
48:32
yeah you told me about this and I had no idea
48:34
that there was a rude version of this yeah you
48:36
lived a you lived a sheltered life compared to
48:38
me in St. Albans can you remember the lyrics
48:40
uh yeah I think it goes yeah boom boom boom yeah
48:43
yeah I'll do the chorus I think it was like girl
48:46
your booty is so brown I wanna something lick
48:50
you up and down maybe something oh fuck actually
48:52
no I can't remember the lyrics but I think the
48:54
um the final line is like put your nani on my
48:57
tongue and your booty on my face Blimey. Yeah,
49:00
Narnia. To be honest, I'm still trying to work
49:02
out what that is. I'm still caught up to that
49:05
level of con knowledge. You'll get there. Thank
49:09
you. Eamon. made it clear that he was not involved
49:12
with FGRB. He says, I've never met Frankie, and
49:15
she's definitely not my girlfriend or ex -girlfriend.
49:17
The only way I was associated with it was when
49:20
I was asked for licensing permission by Frankie's
49:22
representatives, which makes me write on her
49:24
song by Copyright Law. So that is something to
49:27
think about when you imagine the idea that they
49:28
do live together. He's still going to be in a
49:30
more powerful position because he gets all the
49:33
royalties on this. So he's fucked himself, really.
49:38
No, sorry, she's fucked herself. Well, I think
49:41
she will have known that going into it. She's
49:43
been doing that for ages. I'm sure her publisher
49:45
will have known what the implications were. I'm
49:48
beginning to think, Jack, that this was... And
49:51
I don't want to be cynical about the music industry,
49:54
but this might have been a set -up. Yeah, I'm
49:57
not sure they ever... I think it's debatable
50:00
whether they ever met each other. But I think
50:03
that Frankie's thing was released on a much more
50:05
level than Jive. I mean, it feels really indie.
50:08
Yeah. And I don't mean in a creation records
50:10
kind of way. It was Indie Amy, wasn't it? It
50:12
was Indie Amy. I don't mean that, you know, there's
50:14
any Dean Blunt involved in this. Yeah. This feels
50:18
too, not Indie Amy's kind of indie. Yeah, exactly.
50:21
I don't know. I do kind of like, I mean, I feel
50:23
like there's a small genre of like indie pop
50:27
hits that are worth being interested in. Like
50:31
I think about like Vanilla, No Way, No Way. That's
50:34
a good one. Like there were a load of, say like
50:36
Put a Donk on It. Yeah, that's Indy. Do you remember
50:39
Pool Shapes by the Pipettes? I do remember the
50:43
Pipettes. They were like a manufactured indie
50:46
pop girl band that were designed to appeal to
50:49
like indie people who were interested in the
50:52
Simon Reynolds idea of poptimism. They were like,
50:55
can there be like a good... Point of order, I
50:57
don't think that's Simon Reynolds' thing. I think
50:58
he is. Who came up with that? Was it Mark? Was
51:02
it Fisher? No, no. I think it's more of a general
51:04
vibe. It was Code 9. I don't think it was Code
51:06
9. It wasn't Code 9. I think it's more of a general
51:09
critical. Critical. that kind of we should be
51:13
listening to i don't know at the time like the
51:15
knife and annie yeah right with as much like
51:18
with as much And they were better than Razorlight.
51:22
Well, yeah, of course. And I suppose the idea
51:25
of the pipettes, I liked those singles, but that
51:27
never worked out because Girls Aloud soon came
51:29
along, who were like a really amazing pop band,
51:32
but somehow had an indie sensibility and were
51:34
taken seriously by... Somewhat, but then I would
51:37
say the pipettes were like, they were more of
51:38
a, they were kind of a throwback thing. They
51:40
were quite sort of like... Yeah, they were almost
51:41
like a, they weren't ho -wop, but they were a
51:44
bit doo -wop. Yeah, I don't think they would,
51:47
I don't think they'd fall under the ho -wop.
51:49
I think a Hobart purist would definitely say
51:53
that the Vets were Hobart. I haven't heard them
51:56
on any of the AM frequencies. No, yeah, yeah.
52:00
So this just went on and on. I mean, by the end
52:03
of this, I remember my parents being sick of
52:05
hearing both of these records and hearing about
52:07
this. Even your parents? Yeah, because it was
52:09
on Radio 1 all the time. We were on Radio 1 car,
52:11
and it was just... You know, Chris Moyles, who,
52:14
you know, I've banned you from mentioning on
52:16
the podcast, but I will. He did like a parody
52:18
song about it. And a Chris Moyles parody song,
52:21
if you were in the UK, you know, he's kind of
52:23
like our sub Howard Stern. You know that if someone's
52:26
doing a parody song, like it's over basically.
52:28
And his parody song was very much, you know,
52:30
we're sick of hearing about you two idiots. And
52:32
frankly, I'm with Moyles on that because I was
52:34
sick of it. Yeah, I think as with everything
52:37
with Chris Moyles, it's an incredible amount
52:39
of like, you know, punching down on bad vibes
52:42
and kind of, I don't know, that man just seems
52:45
so bitter. I shouldn't have brought him up. I
52:48
know, sorry. It's really like, oh God. Moyles
52:51
is kryptonite to this podcast. Yeah, we can't
52:54
get involved in this. If you want to do a podcast
52:55
about Chris Moyles, you can fucking start it
52:57
yourself. Yeah, I might bloody have to now. You
53:00
can do it with Comedy Dave. I'm sure he's got
53:02
plenty to say. Anyway, moving swiftly on. So
53:05
we don't lose anyone within our extremely niche
53:08
demographic we seem to be appealing to. Yes,
53:12
so it went on and on. And it's mad to think now,
53:17
really, that this was a global conversation.
53:20
As you said, it took place before social media.
53:23
And people in my school talking about it, it
53:25
was talked about on television. And this is just
53:28
like two idiots who've had a breakup. And that
53:32
happens all the time and continues to. despite
53:35
the fact that this record doesn't seem to have
53:37
gone the distance as a touchstone for that issue.
53:41
But yeah, it's mad to consider that it just dominated
53:45
everything. And nowadays, you know, a breakup
53:48
like this would be, it wouldn't even be fodder
53:51
for TikTok. Right. No, I guess not. Not that
53:55
I'm on TikTok. No, I don't think that I can think
53:58
of a... I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I can't see
54:04
this template being repeated in a hurry. No,
54:06
definitely not. Although, of course, you know,
54:08
diss tracks and rivalries are a big part of pop
54:12
music. Some of my favorite other diss tracks
54:14
were No Pigeons by Sporty Thieves. Do you remember
54:19
that? I do. I mean, vaguely. It was a response
54:23
to No Scrubs by TLC. And it's shit. It's really
54:28
bad. You know, they really did fuck themselves
54:50
because it doesn't only, you know... use the
54:54
melody it literally is the instrumental from
54:58
no scrubs right with just three blokes on it
55:00
uh you know dissing dissing their fly girls i
55:05
do like that they've come up with a new you know
55:08
much as like i've never heard the word scrub
55:10
outside no that was very new to to everyone well
55:14
maybe not in terms of like kind of like you know
55:16
uh black american culture but certainly Again,
55:21
a mum memory in the car of her being like, what
55:23
is a scrub? What is this song about? Well, the
55:25
song answers that question, doesn't it? Yeah,
55:27
Scrub is a guy, that's why I said, if you'd listen,
55:30
mother, you'd know. He's also known as a buster.
55:32
Always sitting on, that sort of has a swear in
55:36
it, doesn't it? It goes, doink. It's got like
55:39
a doink noise in it, always, and just sits on
55:42
his doink. I can't think, yeah, I can't think
55:44
what the lyrics are actually. Well, we still
55:46
don't know. I'll have to get down to Woolies
55:48
and buy a copy of that. But there's that, which
55:52
is terrible, and those guys really did fuck themselves
55:54
because they had to give all of their royalties
55:57
to TLC, basically. So you want to say to them,
56:00
like, was it worth it? Was it worth it? Has Lisa
56:03
Left Eye Lopez wronged you to such a degree?
56:05
Yeah, I don't think sporty thieves are doing
56:07
much at the moment. No, although if you go on
56:09
the YouTube comments from that, it turns out
56:11
one of them was quite an influential MC, and
56:13
a lot of the comments are like, either who's
56:15
here this year or, like, missing. you know, drawing
56:19
attention to this one particular talent within,
56:21
within support your views. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
56:24
I guess it's opportunistic, but you know, that's
56:28
pop, isn't it? That is pop. Uh, got, got my education,
56:31
which is, uh, a track I really liked by uncanny
56:35
Alliance. And that is a response to a gypsy woman
56:39
by crystal. Oh yeah. Which was, uh, produced
56:44
by Maurice Thorne. No way. Yeah, that was him
56:48
under early days. God. Yeah. And I mean, that
56:52
again is a great record, but the sort of thing
56:54
I only want to hear like once a year at a wedding
56:56
or something. But yeah, the idea of Got My Education
56:59
is it's kind of like a clap back the Gypsy Woman
57:05
lyric. Right. Kind of saying that actually...
57:10
It's her that's in the wrong. And the first half
57:13
of the song is quite brutal diss lyrics that
57:16
Frankie would be proud of about being addicted
57:19
to drugs and having to work in Burger King. And
57:22
then it's also like a pretty decent house record.
57:25
And then the outro of the record is a repetition
57:30
of the words, love yourself, respect yourself,
57:33
find yourself. So it starts off negative and
57:36
acidic. But in many ways that ends beautifully.
57:39
But then, like, I feel like saying that, you
57:42
know, saying that at the end of the argument
57:44
could be quite, that could be the most brutal
57:46
diss of all. Yeah, sure, but you can get away
57:48
with it because you're, you know, at least attempting
57:50
kind of compassion. Yeah, exactly. You get the
57:52
digs in. Yeah. You get the digs in, but then
57:55
you also get to take the higher ground. Great
57:57
tactic. Eamon and Frankie have not thought about
57:59
that, but maybe that's why this is so compelling.
58:02
Exactly. It's raw. It's about a moment. It's
58:05
really like, you know, it's a Facebook status,
58:08
isn't it? It's a Facebook status of a song. Snakes
58:11
everywhere. Snakes everywhere. You can't trust
58:14
anyone. Fake friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Haters,
58:20
chances. And when Facebook did actually come
58:21
into being, then we didn't need any more Eamon
58:23
and Frankie, I guess. No. And that's why we rarely
58:27
hear from them. Because our whole lives is bloody
58:30
Eamon and Frankie. Every day. You're Eamon, I'm
58:33
Frankie. Yeah, exactly. I don't think either
58:37
of us would be capable of writing a diss podcast
58:40
tune. I don't tend to, I don't really, outside
58:42
of this podcast, I don't plan to use the word
58:45
ho ever again, actually. Sure, yeah. I mean,
58:47
well, luckily there's a lot of recorded evidence
58:49
of you using it now. Yeah, I know. I don't love
58:51
that. No, I've never used that. You know, I can't
58:53
say that I've always been above board with my
58:56
language or terminology, but ho is not something
58:59
that's ever really voluntarily come out of my
59:01
mouth. Yeah, I hate that Amon's forced me to
59:05
say the word hoe probably five or six hundred
59:08
times in the last two weeks. Let us be clear.
59:10
This is a sex -positive pro -Swerf podcast. No,
59:16
no, Swerf is sex... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anti
59:19
-Swerf. Swerf's fuck off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If
59:23
you're a Swerf, turn this off now. We should
59:26
make a cover of Fuck It that's like anti -Swerf.
59:30
Yeah. You'd be like... Fuck it, you swerve. I
59:33
don't want it. Yeah, yeah. You need to respect.
59:35
Fuck it, you swerve. She paid her tax. Yeah,
59:38
yeah, yeah. Fuck it, you swerve. The unionization
59:41
of this is essential. Like legalization needs
59:44
to come now. Like proper legislation, proper
59:47
protection. That's what I'm saying. Maybe this
59:50
could be, you know, the podcast field is an overcrowded
59:53
market, but there's definitely not one where
59:55
two aging blokes just declare themselves to be
1:00:00
pro -sex work quite as vehemently as we have
1:00:02
done. Yeah, well, I think so. But I think we
1:00:05
have to in order to balance out all this. Have
1:00:07
you ever been with a sex worker? No, I haven't.
1:00:09
No, I haven't either. And recently I was with
1:00:11
a good friend of mine who hangs around with people
1:00:16
who... are sex workers or are they very pro -sex
1:00:19
work? And sex work was in conversation and I
1:00:24
got asked, you know, have you ever been with
1:00:26
a sex worker? And I said no. And this one particular
1:00:31
friend of theirs was kind of, gave me a look
1:00:36
of suspicion. And then they were like, why have
1:00:38
you never been with a sex worker? And I was like,
1:00:40
well, largely I've been really skint for the...
1:00:42
the last decade yeah yeah but don't worry I'm
1:00:44
starting a podcast I didn't say that um but that
1:00:48
was what I was thinking uh and yeah but then
1:00:51
I also explained that it just it just doesn't
1:00:53
appeal to me in terms of uh and I feel nothing
1:00:56
about either yeah obviously as I just stated
1:01:00
uh I'm pro -sex working that I think it should
1:01:02
be protected and unionized and uh the people
1:01:04
who You sex workers, I don't really have an opinion
1:01:08
on them. And I'm kind of neutral on the sex workers
1:01:11
themselves, really, to be honest. It's just like
1:01:13
one of those things. I've stopped saying it's
1:01:15
the oldest profession in the world because that's
1:01:17
not true. There's various agricultural roles
1:01:20
that can be traced back much further. I mean,
1:01:21
I think that's an... We'll never know. The interesting
1:01:24
thing about me, though... It's a bit chicken
1:01:25
or egg, isn't it? And hopefully about you, because
1:01:27
this is what the podcast is, is we're pro -sex
1:01:30
worker but anti -farmer. Right, yeah, I feel
1:01:33
I'm a bit anti -farmer. If you were off to the
1:01:35
night out with a bunch of quote -unquote hoes
1:01:39
or a bunch of quote -unquote agricultural workers,
1:01:45
you know who you'd be going with. Yeah, I don't
1:01:48
really like how... I feel like farmers have a
1:01:51
lot of... You know, they have a lot of like...
1:01:54
I don't know. I feel like they sort of... pull
1:01:57
the emotional strings of the populace quite they
1:01:59
certainly do in a quite manipulative way also
1:02:01
they use their bloody tractors to like just gum
1:02:04
everything up when something happens and they're
1:02:06
not happy with it yeah they've got those tractors
1:02:08
in there they're always just get out your tractor
1:02:11
that's what I say when you hold a placard like
1:02:12
anyone else yeah do you know what I mean like
1:02:14
Farmers like basically claim they have no power,
1:02:17
but from my position, they seem to have loads
1:02:19
of power. Yeah, I agree. Including acreage, just
1:02:22
in terms of acreage. They're always complaining
1:02:24
about stuff like inheritance tax, which I think,
1:02:26
you know, which surely should be strengthened
1:02:29
and brought in. You know, they're always saying
1:02:32
like, oh, well, it wouldn't be like that, but
1:02:33
that would completely ruin us farmers because
1:02:35
we fucking are so wealthy. Yeah. I mean, look,
1:02:39
I'm just going to say it. Football is wages to
1:02:42
nurses. And farmer's fields to sex workers. I
1:02:45
think farmer's fields should be nationalized.
1:02:47
No, I don't. I actually think the sex workers
1:02:50
should get them first. Should be nationalized.
1:02:52
Sex workers should be nationalized, sure. Right.
1:02:54
And that's why I'm voting for Andy Burnham. Okay.
1:02:58
I realize that I didn't finish the anecdote about
1:03:03
the sex work question. But do you care? Let's
1:03:07
move on. Let's move on. think that the you'd
1:03:11
left it cliffhanging where someone reacted like
1:03:14
why not or i just said yeah it's not something
1:03:17
i've always been able to to afford and uh also
1:03:20
like just the idea of it the transactional nature
1:03:24
of it it's just different from like a you know
1:03:27
seduction or like chemistry you might find through
1:03:31
meeting someone and you know uh i i don't want
1:03:35
to you know um What word am I looking for? This
1:03:39
is what happens when I talk about sex on a podcast.
1:03:41
I think gut feeling, it feels like it would be
1:03:43
incredibly awkward and also a great way to lose
1:03:46
all your money. Definitely. It would either be
1:03:50
incredibly awkward or even worse, it would be
1:03:54
good and you'd keep doing it. I suppose I've
1:03:56
got an OnlyFans account and that's basically
1:03:58
sex work. I don't use it regularly, but I have
1:04:01
in the past. But I suppose they're sex workers,
1:04:03
right? It's sex work. I mean, yeah. Sex work
1:04:06
is real work. Yes. You've never been on it? No,
1:04:11
I don't think I've subscribed to it. Okay, cool.
1:04:14
You subscribe to individual people, you don't
1:04:17
subscribe to the whole thing. Okay, yeah, yeah.
1:04:19
I'm so pure as a driven star that I don't know.
1:04:23
But yeah, no, I haven't necessarily done that.
1:04:27
So going back into Ho territory after that. Great.
1:04:32
After that, no doubt liberating... Yeah, yeah,
1:04:37
back into the mire of ho -wop. Yeah, so ho -wop,
1:04:40
Damon did continue to pursue it, including on
1:04:44
his second single, Love Them Hoes. Love Them
1:04:49
Hoes, Love Them Hoes, Love Them Hoes Love Them
1:04:52
Hoes, Love Them Hoes, Love Them Hoes Love Them
1:04:56
Hoes, Love Them Hoes, Love Them Hoes Love Them...
1:05:02
Yeah, in his interviews, it's really coming across
1:05:04
that he's really pushing this thing. It's like,
1:05:07
I'm the hose guy. And he's also, yeah, I think
1:05:11
he's got a very clear... He really wants to push
1:05:16
the hose thing. Yeah. As we know. We've already
1:05:18
established that. Love Them Hose. I know this
1:05:21
has been a fairly exhausting experience for you
1:05:25
to research this and engage with this. But Love
1:05:28
Them Hose has been... A ray of sunshine in our
1:05:31
experience. It has actually, it has. So Love
1:05:33
Them Hoes is the ho -wop concept writ large and
1:05:39
successful, I feel. Although it wasn't successful,
1:05:41
it died on its ass. So two things that I noted
1:05:45
about it. One, it's called Love Them Hoes everywhere
1:05:48
on streaming services, except there's a apostrophe
1:05:51
in hoes. Which, what does that mean grammatically?
1:05:55
Well, I mean, I think it just plays into the
1:05:58
very Facebook -y vibe of it. Yeah, sure, yeah,
1:06:01
yeah. That's how it would be spelled on Facebook.
1:06:03
You love those hoes what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
1:06:06
there's that, although I don't think that was
1:06:08
what was attributed to the lack of success of
1:06:11
it. I think what's more kind of possible is that
1:06:16
obviously people have just endured months of
1:06:18
this guy banging on about one specific hoe. And
1:06:22
now he's like... Now he's back saying... Oh,
1:06:24
I love them hoes. Pick a lane. Fucking hell.
1:06:27
Yeah, well, I think we're getting to the dark
1:06:28
heart of why they actually broke up, isn't it?
1:06:30
Yeah, sure, yeah. And it does actually... It
1:06:33
gives Frankie's side of the story a bit more
1:06:36
weight, to be honest. Absolutely. Because how
1:06:39
many of those hoes that he loves, one of them
1:06:42
will... You know, history will repeat itself.
1:06:44
And one of them will... It's not going to be
1:06:47
long. No, but I doubt they're going to have as
1:06:48
much success with a diss record in response.
1:06:53
I think the time for that has come and gone.
1:06:55
The idea that there's another of Eamon's girlfriends
1:06:57
who's like, well, I've got a song myself. I wonder
1:07:00
what a good diss record to Love Them Hoes would
1:07:03
be. I guess it would just be a choir of hoes
1:07:07
being like, please stop calling us hoes. Love
1:07:10
Them Hoes has like a really sort of sample -delic
1:07:13
kind of... I'm not going to say like DJ Shadow
1:07:15
vibe to it, but it's got like a really, it's
1:07:18
like this lovely lilting beat. And it's got like
1:07:21
a little sample of a guy saying, I can't take
1:07:23
my eyes off you. And it suggests, yeah, a bit
1:07:27
avalanches. It suggests a depth to Eamon that
1:07:30
Fuck It doesn't quite engage with. Yeah. You
1:07:36
never hear this song anymore. I can't believe
1:07:39
we've been talking about it for this long and
1:07:40
we're not done yet. Shout -outs to Shell Ravens,
1:07:43
co -host of the No Tax Podcast and excellent
1:07:47
British music writer, who Graham, our producer,
1:07:52
said, bought this up at an afters on New Year's
1:07:56
Day as a hit, really, and something that you
1:08:00
wanted to listen to. I respect proper digging.
1:08:02
I can't speak for whatever kind of state that
1:08:04
she was in on New Year's Day. But this seemed
1:08:06
like a good idea. And from what Graham says,
1:08:08
everyone at the afters did go for it. I played
1:08:13
my own hoe, Love Them Hoes, yesterday. And she
1:08:18
loves almost exclusively early noughties R &B.
1:08:21
And she really liked Love Them Hoes. And sort
1:08:24
of put it on a Spotify playlist and everything.
1:08:26
So something good has come out of this. Yeah,
1:08:28
it's really joyful, isn't it? I think it suits
1:08:32
his voice. I don't know. Can we just put it on?
1:08:35
No, I don't want to play that, but I do want
1:08:39
to play another discovery that I came across,
1:08:43
which is the Manchester United -themed parody
1:08:48
of Fuck It. Another slightly different take on
1:08:59
the beat. Someone's cooked us up in GarageBand.
1:09:06
Nice. Nice vocal things, isn't it? Well, they've
1:09:25
hired in an American singer to do it. This would
1:09:29
just be AI now. Sorry, we missed her saying the
1:09:32
other ones are shite in her... Fuck who? Fuck
1:09:49
Steve McManaman. It's good. It's powerful. I'm
1:10:05
enjoying it. I actually prefer this to my guitar.
1:10:07
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the word Roy Keane fell
1:10:18
on me, even frankly. Anyway, that's going to
1:10:21
be it from that. Simply because, you know, I
1:10:25
come from a Liverpool family and if they found
1:10:27
me, even for evidence -based purposes, to be
1:10:30
playing a pro -United track on the podcast, I
1:10:35
wouldn't be invited home for Christmas. So I've
1:10:37
got to be careful. Make sure it doesn't show
1:10:38
up in your algorithm. Yeah, they'd say, yeah,
1:10:40
play in United propaganda and you've got an OnlyFans
1:10:42
account. You're not welcome here anymore. Yeah,
1:10:45
and you're deliberately using the word hoes.
1:10:47
I think I'd be able to get away with that, actually.
1:10:49
Really? No, I wouldn't really, no. My mum would
1:10:51
pull me up on it. I'm going to try never to say
1:10:53
that word again. If anyone ever called my mother
1:10:55
a hoe, I'd be furious. Yeah, with good reason.
1:10:58
Yeah, I mean, I suppose... It's a, you know,
1:11:01
I think it's a, yeah, it's a pretty bad word.
1:11:05
I think Eamon, like he was riding the dragon
1:11:07
when he was like, I'm going to stick this in
1:11:09
a pop record for eight years. Yeah, he was just
1:11:11
fucking furious. I'm afraid it's, you know, it's
1:11:13
maybe rightfully coming back to bite him on the
1:11:16
ass. Yeah, I think so. But I mean, people do
1:11:18
still listen to this. He'll be getting the streaming
1:11:20
royalties. You know, Eamon, if you're listening
1:11:22
to this, because I'm sure sometimes he'll do
1:11:24
a stray Google for himself. Eamon, come on the
1:11:27
pod. And Frankie, come on the pod. So who do
1:11:29
we want on the pod? So, so far on the pod, we've
1:11:32
invited Colin from Radiohead, Charlie XCX, and
1:11:35
Eamon and Frank. It's going to be a great Christmas
1:11:37
episode, I tell you. Yeah. They're all like round
1:11:40
table. While we're here, I'm going to throw one
1:11:42
out to Steve McManaman or Roy Keane. Yeah, yeah,
1:11:45
yeah. So, anything else left to say about this
1:11:48
particular moment in pop cultural history, Jack?
1:11:52
I'm glad to see the back of it. I think I, even
1:11:56
as a personal challenge, I think this one has
1:11:59
been a, we've been through it. We need to step
1:12:02
out of the 2004 swamp. I mean, there's nothing
1:12:07
good to be found here. It's, well, yeah, I think
1:12:10
we've been through a few. We've done Johnny Burrow
1:12:12
and Razorlight. We've done, and we're only three
1:12:15
episodes in, we've done this. And even, you know,
1:12:17
actually the first one, Darren Brown was, you
1:12:19
know, a positive example, really. Exactly. So
1:12:22
we'll be back next time and we'll have a very
1:12:25
positive podcast for you. Probably. I'm excited.
1:12:29
I'm excited. Thank you, Jack. Thank you, John.
1:12:32
And you know what? Fuck you. And fuck you right
1:12:34
back. Yes. Ciao. You know there are two sides
1:12:38
to every story. Detroit.