Latest / Inside Politics / ‘Don’t say it’s a protest vote’: Pauline Hanson on One Nation’s resurgence

Transcript

‘Don’t say it’s a protest vote’: Pauline Hanson on One Nation’s resurgence · Inside Politics

• 0:01
  S1: I'm Paul Sichel, and you're listening to a bonus episode
• 0:04
  S1: of Inside Politics from the Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
• 0:07
  S1: The debate on the rise of Pauline Hanson is shifting rapidly.
• 0:10
  S1: For the first time this week, One Nation's primary vote
• 0:13
  S1: rose above the Labor Party's a conversation that is focused
• 0:17
  S1: on One Nation in the coalition. Swapping preferences has given
• 0:20
  S1: way to more profound questions about the long term configuration
• 0:23
  S1: on the right flank of Australian politics. But Hanson is
• 0:27
  S1: yet to face the full force of scrutiny on her policies,
• 0:29
  S1: her positions on race relations and whether her party really
• 0:33
  S1: is a credible governing outfit. Hanson joined us in Canberra
• 0:36
  S1: on Wednesday. Pauline Hanson, thank you for joining us.
• 0:41
  S2: My pleasure. Thank you.
• 0:42
  S1: We'll get to some tougher questions later on, I promise.
• 0:45
  S1: For those who think this is a softball intro, but
• 0:48
  S1: we saw each other on Tuesday night at the pub
• 0:51
  S1: in Canberra and in the period, well, we didn't actually
• 0:54
  S1: meet each other. We just ran into each other at
• 0:56
  S1: the front bar. And in that short period, from walking
• 0:58
  S1: to the front bar to the table or to the
• 1:00
  S1: exit that you were leaving to. I saw about four
• 1:01
  S1: people stopped to take selfies with you right in the
• 1:04
  S1: centre of Canberra. So not really your hotspot. And it
• 1:07
  S1: strikes me that you're riding this wave of anti-establishment sentiment
• 1:11
  S1: at the moment, where the normal rules don't quite apply
• 1:13
  S1: to you being treated differently to all the rest of
• 1:15
  S1: the political class. You recently called a journalist a nasty bitch.
• 1:19
  S1: You made very controversial comments about Muslim Australians. You attend
• 1:24
  S1: only 10% of Senate estimates, so people can argue you're
• 1:26
  S1: not doing your job properly, but you're the most popular
• 1:30
  S1: party in the polls at the moment and the most
• 1:31
  S1: popular Australian politician. What do you feel in your gut
• 1:35
  S1: is creating this remarkable moment?
• 1:38
  S2: Well, I think, as you said, people are fed up
• 1:40
  S2: with the major political parties because they're feeling it out
• 1:43
  S2: in the streets, in their suburbs, in their homes and
• 1:45
  S2: their jobs, the workforces on the streets. The, um, mass
• 1:49
  S2: migration has been a driving factor with this and also
• 1:52
  S2: cost of living. So people are finding it very hard
• 1:55
  S2: to put a roof over their head, put food on
• 1:57
  S2: the table. You've got 7 million Australians just having one
• 2:00
  S2: meal a day. So it's a combination of a lot
• 2:03
  S2: of different things that's brought it to this point. They
• 2:05
  S2: don't trust governments and they constantly see our prime minister lie.
• 2:10
  S2: They change their positions. They don't carry through with what
• 2:13
  S2: they promise the people. And there's no confidence in our politicians.
• 2:16
  S2: And I think that's what it is. And they see
• 2:18
  S2: me as just a grassroots Australian just like them.
• 2:21
  S1: Well, arguably on those measures, not much has changed. Politicians
• 2:23
  S1: have always told lies or misleading statements over periods of time.
• 2:28
  S1: The non-major party vote has been growing for a long time.
• 2:32
  S1: Labor and coalition people who do party research say that
• 2:34
  S1: people aren't. A lot of these voters who are saying
• 2:36
  S1: they'll vote for one Nation aren't doing so because they're
• 2:39
  S1: extremely fond of you or not. All of them are,
• 2:41
  S1: but a lot of them are just disillusioned, hard working
• 2:43
  S1: people who think the system is broken. And you're the
• 2:45
  S1: anti-establishment candidate who's built up a lot of legitimacy now.
• 2:49
  S2: No, I disagree with that in so many ways, because
• 2:51
  S2: the policies that we have, even from my first time
• 2:53
  S2: in politics. Alright. Well mass migration. climate change, net zero
• 2:59
  S2: Paris agreement reduced electricity prices, getting rid of the climate
• 3:04
  S2: change department. So there's quite a few out there. Even
• 3:07
  S2: when I first got into politics with John Howard, you know,
• 3:10
  S2: I was very popular back then as well. Even turning
• 3:12
  S2: back the boats, that was my policy to actually do that.
• 3:15
  S2: John Howard saw the wave that One Nation was creating
• 3:18
  S2: that time. So by having one nation on the scene,
• 3:22
  S2: political scene means that the other political parties really have
• 3:26
  S2: to stop taking the people for granted. And I've been
• 3:31
  S2: a lot of things that I've done or said over
• 3:33
  S2: the period of time, even with the voice, I was
• 3:34
  S2: the one that led the charge against the voice. Even
• 3:37
  S2: having the Covid Covid jabs, that was another thing that
• 3:40
  S2: I was outspoken on. A lot of things that I
• 3:43
  S2: have done. I've set the agenda for a lot of
• 3:46
  S2: these political parties, even picking up foreign investment, ownership of
• 3:50
  S2: our housing. That's another one. Both picked up. The fuel
• 3:53
  S2: excise was another my policy where the coalition then picked
• 3:57
  S2: it up in the Labour Party did it. So Beer
• 3:59
  S2: Excise getting rid of that as well. So a lot
• 4:02
  S2: of things that I have said and done is policy.
• 4:05
  S2: So I don't say it's a protest. People want change
• 4:08
  S2: of policy and direction where the country is going.
• 4:10
  S1: You mentioned your early years in politics. People like Tony
• 4:12
  S1: Abbott and others have made a comment in in the
• 4:15
  S1: recent period when you've become ascendant and they've said words
• 4:19
  S1: to the effect of that, you've changed significantly in the
• 4:21
  S1: last 30 years. You're not the Pauline Hanson who entered
• 4:24
  S1: the parliament. You made very contentious speeches on the indigenous
• 4:30
  S1: politics around indigenous affairs about Asian immigration. You said Asians
• 4:33
  S1: would flood the country. Would you do those things differently now?
• 4:36
  S1: What has changed, if anything?
• 4:38
  S2: Have I really changed?
• 4:40
  S1: Well, others say that you have. Do you think you have?
• 4:41
  S2: No, because the rest of the country has caught up
• 4:43
  S2: with me. And that's what people say have been consistent
• 4:46
  S2: with my with what I've been saying over years. And
• 4:50
  S2: although it was looked at politically incorrect to say those
• 4:53
  S2: things at that time by saying swamped by Asians. And
• 4:56
  S2: that was said because we had a high intake of
• 5:00
  S2: migrants coming from Asian countries. And the figures that I had,
• 5:03
  S2: we would actually have a huge number of Asians in
• 5:07
  S2: the country by 2050. So I was expressing, expressing my
• 5:11
  S2: my views on this. And it was totally out of
• 5:14
  S2: proportion that I don't like Asians. That's not the truth
• 5:18
  S2: at all. Because I questioned the Aboriginal industry. Where's the
• 5:22
  S2: money going? It's not helping. Why are we treating people
• 5:25
  S2: totally different based on their race? That's not that's not Australian.
• 5:29
  S2: Treat people totally the same.
• 5:30
  S1: Why is the Asian question being supplanted in your mind
• 5:33
  S1: by the question on Muslim immigration?
• 5:36
  S2: On Muslim immigration, it's totally different to Asian immigration.
• 5:39
  S1: Why is that your key talking point now compared to
• 5:41
  S1: 20 years ago?
• 5:42
  S2: Because it's because it's actually happening. We didn't have the
• 5:44
  S2: impact of Muslim immigration in the country back in 1996.
• 5:48
  S2: And I spoke about it in my maiden speech to
• 5:51
  S2: the Senate in 2016, and I could see the writing
• 5:54
  S2: on the wall where we're headed. And that's how Australians
• 5:57
  S2: feel about.
• 5:58
  S1: Asian immigration been bad for the country. In hindsight, do
• 6:00
  S1: you think?
• 6:01
  S2: We've had people from all different cultural backgrounds that have
• 6:04
  S2: come on board to be Australians, and a lot of
• 6:07
  S2: these Asians actually embrace me. They say, Pauline, you are right.
• 6:12
  S2: We don't want this country to become like the place
• 6:14
  S2: that we left either, do I? I'm a proud Australian.
• 6:18
  S2: Do you want me to back away from that? Because
• 6:19
  S2: I won't, and neither will a lot of other Australians.
• 6:22
  S2: We've been very welcoming with a lot of migrants have
• 6:25
  S2: come here for a new way of life to this country. And,
• 6:29
  S2: you know, if you value that as a country, as
• 6:31
  S2: a culture, and I'm sick of politicians putting everyone down
• 6:35
  S2: and the Australian people and, you know, the way we've
• 6:39
  S2: gone so woke people have had a gutful. We don't
• 6:43
  S2: want it anymore.
• 6:44
  S1: You said this week, I think for the first time
• 6:47
  S1: in the period since you've been rising in the polls,
• 6:50
  S1: that you do actually want to run as the alternative
• 6:53
  S1: Prime minister. That's not serious.
• 6:54
  S2: No, I didn't say. Didn't say. Want to run. I
• 6:58
  S2: said if I am put in that position, I believe
• 7:01
  S2: that I have the ability to be able to do
• 7:03
  S2: the job. So there's a hell of a difference. I
• 7:06
  S2: haven't been in this and led a political party since 1997,
• 7:11
  S2: although I was out of it for 12 years and
• 7:13
  S2: out of Parliament for 18 years, and I've come back
• 7:15
  S2: in to lead the party in 2015, get elected in 2016,
• 7:20
  S2: run a political party. I've got people elected in state
• 7:23
  S2: and federal parliaments in the last ten, 11 years, and
• 7:27
  S2: we've set, you know, a history making here with our
• 7:31
  S2: first member sworn into Parliament this week. And do you
• 7:36
  S2: think I'm going to walk away from all that? Why?
• 7:39
  S2: Why should I not? Why should I underestimate myself? What
• 7:43
  S2: am I going to tell my supporters out there, members
• 7:45
  S2: of the political party?
• 7:47
  S1: Well, so are you suggesting that you won't run as
• 7:50
  S1: Pauline for PM. But if that occurs, then of course
• 7:53
  S1: you take up the opportunity. You're backing away from putting
• 7:56
  S1: yourself forward.
• 7:56
  S2: I'm not backing away at all. I am the leader
• 7:59
  S2: of this party, as I have always said. And I
• 8:02
  S2: said in an interview the other night.
• 8:03
  S1: Are you aiming?
• 8:04
  S2: I said, it's about who's the best person for the job.
• 8:07
  S2: That's what it's about. And it's never been about Pauline
• 8:10
  S2: Hanson for my own. You know, if you think I
• 8:13
  S2: have an ego, what this is about, it's about the
• 8:16
  S2: best person for the job. And people see me as
• 8:20
  S2: the leader of this, of this party. Even the polls
• 8:23
  S2: are showing that a lot of supporters coming from people
• 8:26
  S2: for me to be leader. Now, I haven't made that
• 8:31
  S2: final decision at all. But at the moment I am
• 8:34
  S2: the leader of the party. Have. Have you gone? Have you,
• 8:37
  S2: have you, have you gone and asked. Have you asked
• 8:40
  S2: Taylor Angus Taylor, have you asked the.
• 8:43
  S1: Question, who wants to be the Prime Minister? Of course
• 8:45
  S1: he does.
• 8:45
  S2: Have you asked him the question?
• 8:46
  S1: Well it's given.
• 8:47
  S2: Well, why do you question me then?
• 8:50
  S1: But you're even saying now that you haven't made your
• 8:52
  S1: mind up on whether you want to be the Prime Minister.
• 8:54
  S2: Because you don't think I can do it?
• 8:56
  S1: I'm asking you whether you think you can.
• 8:57
  S2: I told you my answer to the other boss. I
• 8:59
  S2: do believe I have the ability.
• 9:01
  S1: To.
• 9:01
  S2: Do it. I'm not backing away from it. It depends
• 9:04
  S2: on the public. If they want to vote for one nation,
• 9:06
  S2: give us government. Well, then. Yes, because I'll be the
• 9:10
  S2: leader of the party. I'm going to be the leader
• 9:11
  S2: of the party right up to the next election. So
• 9:13
  S2: that means I will be.
• 9:14
  S1: Well, surely you're being dictated here by what the polls say,
• 9:18
  S1: because just a few months ago. I'll just read you
• 9:20
  S1: quotes back. You said I don't want a ministerial position,
• 9:23
  S1: no ministries, no executive power. You didn't want to be, quote,
• 9:25
  S1: shut down. You said you didn't want to be dictated
• 9:28
  S1: to or to pass bad legislation. But the polls, because
• 9:31
  S1: they've been extraordinary, have almost forced your hand to say, yeah,
• 9:34
  S1: I might be the Prime Minister. That's not serious, though. Right.
• 9:36
  S1: Do you have a governing mentality?
• 9:37
  S2: You tell me that that quote that you said, I
• 9:40
  S2: don't want any ministerial positions. That was if the coalition
• 9:45
  S2: was going to have the numbers, they need our numbers
• 9:47
  S2: to back them up so they can be government. That's
• 9:49
  S2: a hell of a difference there. So therefore, what I
• 9:52
  S2: said is I don't want to be part of a
• 9:54
  S2: coalition where I'm tied to their policies, and I can't
• 9:57
  S2: be that independent, free thinking political party that I represent.
• 10:01
  S1: Mhm. Let's talk about your potential move to the lower house.
• 10:04
  S1: So I understand that you're thinking about moving down and
• 10:07
  S1: that it's most likely if you do. And I know
• 10:10
  S1: no decisions have been made here, that you might run
• 10:12
  S1: for a labor seat like Lilly or Blair, or perhaps
• 10:16
  S1: an LNP seat. The seat of. Right.
• 10:17
  S2: I don't know where you got Lilly from.
• 10:19
  S1: Definitely no Lilly. Yeah. I think that's the least likely someone.
• 10:21
  S1: People have been floating that but. Right. Or Blair.
• 10:25
  S2: Well there too in my area. Plus also there's Capricornia.
• 10:28
  S1: Which one do you think would make.
• 10:30
  S2: I'm not making any comment on it now. Mhm. We're
• 10:33
  S2: still a year and a half out or two years
• 10:35
  S2: outside the election.
• 10:36
  S1: And you may just stay upstairs and break constitutional convention
• 10:40
  S1: and run as a prime ministerial candidate in the Senate.
• 10:42
  S1: Is that.
• 10:42
  S2: Right? I could actually do anything. There's nothing in the
• 10:44
  S2: Constitution that says the Prime Minister has to go from
• 10:47
  S2: come from the lower house.
• 10:49
  S1: Would it not be more credible if you wanted to
• 10:51
  S1: portray yourself as a prime minister, which I don't think
• 10:53
  S1: you're actually doing? Well, Jim.
• 10:54
  S2: Gordon was prime minister from the Senate for three months.
• 10:57
  S1: Sure. Just on preference deals. It's the conversations moved so rapidly,
• 11:01
  S1: just in the space of months. We went from a
• 11:02
  S1: conversation about who would preference whom. Uh, when polling showed
• 11:07
  S1: that you were catching up to the liberals, but not
• 11:08
  S1: quite ahead. You're now well ahead of the coalition in
• 11:12
  S1: several polls and in one poll, only one poll ahead
• 11:14
  S1: of labor. And we're now in a kind of more
• 11:17
  S1: profound debate about, you know, being muttered in the corridors
• 11:20
  S1: around here about whether you could form some sort of
• 11:22
  S1: right wing coalition with the Libs and Nats, and those
• 11:25
  S1: parties effectively be subsumed in almost a merger. That's what
• 11:29
  S1: the worst fears of liberals are. Is that your ultimate
• 11:32
  S1: aim to subsume the coalition parties into a broader right
• 11:36
  S1: wing coalition?
• 11:39
  S2: Look, um, I don't know what's going to happen at
• 11:43
  S2: the next election. We can all only guess in the
• 11:46
  S2: long run and what's what's going to happen after that. No,
• 11:49
  S2: I'm not going to make these, um, you know, surmise
• 11:53
  S2: of what possibly is the outcome. As I said to you,
• 11:58
  S2: these political parties is the reason why this country is
• 12:01
  S2: in one hell of a mess. And I know that
• 12:04
  S2: it has to be a change in direction policies. And
• 12:07
  S2: we envision for Australia. And that's what I'm going to
• 12:11
  S2: be pushing.
• 12:12
  S1: In some parts of the political establishment. You're being portrayed
• 12:17
  S1: as the kind of saviour of the coalition, that you're
• 12:19
  S1: the only option who can beat labor. Many people think
• 12:22
  S1: this is a delusional way of thinking, because you're the
• 12:25
  S1: ultimate aim is to supplant the coalition parties. Are you
• 12:27
  S1: trying to replace them as the major?
• 12:29
  S2: Let them think what they want to think. I really
• 12:30
  S2: don't care. It's up to the people of Australia how
• 12:33
  S2: they want to vote. They'll cast their vote. Everyone out
• 12:35
  S2: there has the opportunity to vote on Election Day and
• 12:38
  S2: let the people of Australia have their say, not these
• 12:40
  S2: elitists who think that they're you know, they have the um.
• 12:46
  S2: They have the ability to actually dictate and run it
• 12:49
  S2: and think everyone else should be suppressed. And, and they
• 12:52
  S2: only know what's best for this country. The people out
• 12:54
  S2: there will have their say.
• 12:56
  S1: You blame Tony Abbott in the early 2000, along with
• 12:58
  S1: John Howard, for causing your imprisonment. He's now back as
• 13:01
  S1: president of the Liberal Party. I think your relationship with
• 13:03
  S1: him has changed. What's what's your relationship with Tony Abbott like?
• 13:06
  S2: Fine. I have no problem about it. I actually I
• 13:08
  S2: was the one who moved on. I was the one
• 13:10
  S2: who encouraged him. Um, hopefully that he won that prime
• 13:14
  S2: ministership against Julia Gillard.
• 13:17
  S1: He is viewed by some liberals and I think he
• 13:19
  S1: would contest this as being potentially open to talking about
• 13:23
  S1: some sort of longer term arrangement with One Nation. Do
• 13:26
  S1: you see his ascension to that position as opening the
• 13:29
  S1: door to those kinds of conversations in the long run?
• 13:32
  S2: Look, um, in the long run, there's, you know what
• 13:38
  S2: my main aim is? Get rid of labor, but.
• 13:40
  S1: Finish your.
• 13:41
  S2: First.
• 13:41
  S1: Sentence.
• 13:42
  S2: In the long rid of labor.
• 13:43
  S1: In the long run.
• 13:43
  S2: What is to get rid of labor and to get
• 13:45
  S2: rid of the greens? That's what it's about. And the teals.
• 13:49
  S2: This country needs to change completely. Get out of this
• 13:52
  S2: climate change, which is the cost of electricity gone up,
• 13:55
  S2: destroyed industries, manufacturing small businesses. That is the driving factor
• 14:00
  S2: that with immigration. So if anyone wants to talk to
• 14:03
  S2: me about it and we can make a change and
• 14:06
  S2: the direction of policy that's driving this country, then I'll
• 14:09
  S2: be talking to them.
• 14:10
  S1: Make a conversation about this prospect of a longer term
• 14:13
  S1: right wing coalition. Do you mean.
• 14:15
  S2: Paul? I'm not going to you're not going to box
• 14:18
  S2: me into a corner. You are. I think you keep going.
• 14:21
  S2: You keep going to this to this, you know, factors
• 14:24
  S2: this where it has to go. I'm not being boxed
• 14:26
  S2: into anything. We're coming into an election that's probably unprecedented
• 14:31
  S2: what we're doing because there's really three three major parties
• 14:34
  S2: now in it. I'm a major party. You know, I'm
• 14:36
  S2: not just this minor party out there on the fringes
• 14:39
  S2: to actually give preferences to give one of the majors.
• 14:41
  S2: That's why.
• 14:41
  S1: We've.
• 14:41
  S2: Got you. This is why people want change. And you're
• 14:44
  S2: not going to box me in a corner that I'm
• 14:46
  S2: going to be tagged with the with the coalition government,
• 14:48
  S2: because they're responsible for a lot of the problems that
• 14:51
  S2: we're in now. And my members do not want to
• 14:53
  S2: see me associated or to join forces with them, because
• 14:56
  S2: they're responsible for the situation. That's why people want change.
• 14:59
  S2: They want change from someone who's prepared to stand their
• 15:02
  S2: ground and drive for that change. I'm not answerable to
• 15:05
  S2: anyone else but the people out there.
• 15:07
  S1: Let's go to policy quickly. So you talked about some
• 15:09
  S1: of your policies earlier, some of which have been adopted
• 15:12
  S1: by major parties. Your critics would say that you're not
• 15:15
  S1: across the breadth of policies that you'd be required to
• 15:17
  S1: be if you led the country. Can I just go
• 15:19
  S1: rapid fire through some newsworthy policy issues and have some
• 15:22
  S1: quick answers, and we'll run through them if we can,
• 15:24
  S1: as quick as you can, without with still getting your
• 15:27
  S1: words in.
• 15:28
  S2: Well, you can, but but I'll also tell you that, um,
• 15:33
  S2: I'm quite happy to answer some questions on these things. Yes.
• 15:37
  S1: Let's go through what cuts would you propose to balance
• 15:40
  S1: the budget? Top three.
• 15:42
  S2: Well, climate change has to go. Climate change department, Aboriginal industry.
• 15:46
  S2: And if you treat everyone equally in the same, NDIS
• 15:50
  S2: needs to be cut right back.
• 15:51
  S1: Aboriginal um, the Indigenous Affairs Department and climate change department.
• 15:56
  S1: That's small money.
• 15:57
  S2: No it's not. They're both $30 billion a year.
• 16:01
  S1: In spending from those departments.
• 16:03
  S2: And then the subsidy paid out. We've probably paid out
• 16:06
  S2: over $80 billion in the Aboriginal in the climate change department,
• 16:10
  S2: but they won't give us any figures on that. So
• 16:12
  S2: we don't know what's tied up in the subsidies, how
• 16:13
  S2: long it's going to go. Then you've got all these
• 16:15
  S2: transmission lines that's been put in at the moment, and
• 16:18
  S2: the cost is going to be over $1 trillion in
• 16:20
  S2: the climate change by the time it's finished. And then
• 16:22
  S2: you've got, you've got the, um, the white elephant in.
• 16:30
  S2: Zero two um, I can't think of it.
• 16:33
  S1: Snowy hydro.
• 16:34
  S2: The snowy hydro. Thank you for saying that. That's another one.
• 16:36
  S2: 42 billion. They've done a great job, haven't they, I?
• 16:39
  S2: From 2 billion up to 42, 42 billion plus the NBN.
• 16:43
  S2: So you're telling me about cuts and they've actually the
• 16:46
  S2: decisions they've made. What about the NBN that was over
• 16:49
  S2: $60 billion. It's a white elephant now as well.
• 16:52
  S1: What about yesterday's or Tuesday's minimum wage decision. Do you
• 16:55
  S1: support it. The 4.75% rise.
• 16:58
  S2: Look, you have to. But that's going to have a
• 17:00
  S2: big impact on industries and small business. They're really struggling
• 17:04
  S2: to pay their bills, even the rent rise in electricity costs.
• 17:07
  S2: But I know that the general public out there also
• 17:10
  S2: struggling to pay their bills. So it has to be done.
• 17:13
  S2: You know, the businesses can it's it's not a whole lot,
• 17:18
  S2: but we've got to try and support people.
• 17:20
  S1: So you're having it both ways. They're a little bit.
• 17:22
  S1: Is the changed orcas schedule that we learned about over
• 17:24
  S1: the weekend with three mid service subs instead of one
• 17:27
  S1: new one worrying sign for orcas. And should orcas be reviewed?
• 17:30
  S2: Well, you've got to look at the fact that America
• 17:33
  S2: can't build. The subs are only building 1.3 at the moment.
• 17:36
  S2: You know they were expecting about 2.23 a year, but
• 17:39
  S2: they've not been able to build them and it is
• 17:42
  S2: a concern. But we do need new subs.
• 17:45
  S1: Should we proceed with Aukus or review it and have
• 17:47
  S1: a think about where we're at?
• 17:48
  S2: No, we're in the deal with Aukus. Aukus is more, um,
• 17:51
  S2: about an ally with the United States and Great Britain.
• 17:56
  S2: It's not just about building subs. There's more to the
• 17:59
  S2: substance to it.
• 18:00
  S1: Should workers be protected from artificial intelligence, or do we
• 18:03
  S1: need the technology run to drive up productivity?
• 18:06
  S2: Well, that's that's huge that one, because it's going to
• 18:09
  S2: lose a lot of people jobs. You might lose your
• 18:12
  S2: job to Paul. You never know you'd be appointed. I
• 18:15
  S2: don't you know, a few politicians in here would be
• 18:18
  S2: great if I could drive that because I'm all for
• 18:20
  S2: fewer politicians, but industries are going to do it. And
• 18:24
  S2: I hope it doesn't take over the the education sector
• 18:28
  S2: because they're using AI. So you're not going to have
• 18:30
  S2: the intelligence from these people using AI to get their
• 18:33
  S2: their tertiary degrees, which is going to be an impact
• 18:36
  S2: on employment.
• 18:37
  S1: Should we grow the trading relationship with China, or put
• 18:40
  S1: more emphasis on the security threat with the Asian superpower?
• 18:44
  S2: What I like to do is build up more of
• 18:46
  S2: our own industries manufacturing, which we have lost over 1400
• 18:50
  S2: in with this government. So we've lost a lot of industries.
• 18:54
  S2: Manufacturing started with the Lima Declaration in 1975. We signed
• 18:58
  S2: it up to sell of raw materials to third world countries.
• 19:01
  S2: We're selling our coal to them. They're using the coal
• 19:03
  S2: to power their their plants over there and buying back
• 19:06
  S2: finished products be restored. Our own industries manufacturing here. We
• 19:09
  S2: are so self reliant on imports, which is about a
• 19:12
  S2: third of our products coming from China.
• 19:14
  S1: So distance ourselves from China at a diplomatic distance ourselves
• 19:18
  S1: from China at a diplomatic.
• 19:19
  S2: I'd like to be more self-sufficient, which I've always said that.
• 19:22
  S1: What about the media bargaining incentive? Sorry, the media bargaining
• 19:27
  S1: code that allows tech firms to incentivize as tech firms
• 19:32
  S1: to strike deals with journalists, Journalism firms to keep Australian
• 19:37
  S1: journalism alive?
• 19:38
  S2: No, I'm not across that one.
• 19:40
  S1: Not aware of.
• 19:40
  S2: It? No.
• 19:41
  S1: Do you support banning gambling advertisements on TV?
• 19:46
  S2: Look, they have, but not completely. I think it could
• 19:50
  S2: be allowed in certain times after a certain time. At night.
• 19:54
  S2: If you're going to ban that, then ban the whole
• 19:56
  S2: industry altogether. If you allow horse racing to happen, you
• 20:00
  S2: know what happens if you allow the lotto and all
• 20:03
  S2: these things. We allow that to happen. So if you're
• 20:06
  S2: against that, then ban it. You know you won't because
• 20:08
  S2: it's an industry employs, you know, thousands more on.
• 20:11
  S1: Sports sports rather than horses, more than racing.
• 20:14
  S2: Well, it's still gambling, isn't it? So when's the next thing?
• 20:17
  S1: MM. What about the job? Job ready graduates program.
• 20:21
  S2: Um. Yeah. Just, um, explain that further to me.
• 20:27
  S1: That's the Morrison government policy that's made that's made certain degrees,
• 20:30
  S1: including arts degrees, astronomically expensive, some other ones cheaper. The
• 20:34
  S1: government's committed to.
• 20:35
  S2: Looking at it. When they brought that in Morrison, I
• 20:37
  S2: totally agree with what they were saying, that a lot
• 20:39
  S2: of people going for degrees, that there was no work
• 20:42
  S2: for it at the end of the day. So what
• 20:44
  S2: they did, they increased the the price of the cost
• 20:47
  S2: of some degrees. And I totally agree with that. If
• 20:51
  S2: they're going to take out HECS debts, yes.
• 20:53
  S1: It's a couple of you weren't aware of. I've had more,
• 20:55
  S1: but we don't have enough time. So I'm just going
• 20:57
  S1: to move on. If you're the prime minister and Donald Trump.
• 20:59
  S1: Trump asked you asked Australia to join the US in
• 21:04
  S1: a war in the Middle East or in the Taiwan
• 21:06
  S1: Straits against China. Would you be inclined to join?
• 21:09
  S2: That is a hypothetical question, and I'm not going to
• 21:11
  S2: answer that now at this time, because that needs to
• 21:13
  S2: be strategically advice that I'd be listening to people from
• 21:18
  S2: all the defence and all around. My advice is not
• 21:20
  S2: something that I would actually make.
• 21:22
  S1: Do you still.
• 21:23
  S2: Support.
• 21:23
  S1: Do you still support the Trump's war with Iran?
• 21:26
  S2: I think we needed to make sure that Iran didn't
• 21:28
  S2: have nuclear weaponry. By all means.
• 21:30
  S1: Was it a success that war? Sorry. Was it a success?
• 21:33
  S1: The war? Well, it's still.
• 21:35
  S2: Going on, correct? It's still going on. So do.
• 21:38
  S1: You think.
• 21:38
  S2: It's going on? We don't know. Um, if he can
• 21:40
  S2: get the Straits of Hormuz open and we get the
• 21:44
  S2: oil supply. But you can't allow that dictatorship and that's
• 21:47
  S2: happening in the world. I think it would be more.
• 21:52
  S2: Detrimental to the world if they were allowed to have
• 21:55
  S2: that weaponry.
• 21:55
  S1: Do you think Trump's made any mistakes in his presidency
• 21:58
  S1: to date?
• 21:58
  S2: I'm sure he has. But I'm not an American citizen.
• 22:01
  S2: Let them decide.
• 22:02
  S1: You can't. You can't call up one.
• 22:04
  S2: Well, there are certain things I totally agree that he's, um,
• 22:07
  S2: looking after the women and doesn't allow men in their spaces.
• 22:11
  S2: He's pulled back on the immigration. He's actually created investment
• 22:14
  S2: in his country. And last year at the end of
• 22:17
  S2: last year, um, been over there, he's pulled in $19
• 22:21
  S2: trillion in investment in the country. So that's all very
• 22:24
  S2: positive that what's going on. He's tried to get accountability
• 22:28
  S2: for where the money's gone in the country.
• 22:30
  S1: Would you ever have an argument with the Trump administration
• 22:34
  S1: if you were to lead the Australian government?
• 22:35
  S2: If I didn't agree with him, I'll have an argument
• 22:37
  S2: with anyone or I'll debate them.
• 22:40
  S1: Another person who you might be forced to argue with
• 22:42
  S1: is Gina Rinehart. I know you've been asked lots of
• 22:44
  S1: questions about her influence on One Nation. Can you guarantee
• 22:47
  S1: that Rinehart won't have sway over any of your energy policies,
• 22:50
  S1: your decision making on the Environmental Act, on defence policy?
• 22:54
  S1: She sought to influence the coalition's policy making before the
• 22:57
  S1: last election. Is that is that a relationship you have
• 22:59
  S1: with her policy making relationship?
• 23:01
  S2: Yeah. No, she doesn't influence me at all. She's like anyone.
• 23:06
  S2: I've been to her meetings. I've listened to the speeches. I've.
• 23:09
  S2: I've heard her views on these things. And they're very
• 23:12
  S2: in line with my views. So it's like a lot
• 23:15
  S2: of Australians there that I listen to right across the board,
• 23:18
  S2: whether they're farmers, industries, manufacturing, everyone, they have views because
• 23:22
  S2: it's actually their environmental policy and safeguard mechanisms that are
• 23:26
  S2: actually shutting down this country. So why wouldn't someone, you know?
• 23:30
  S2: Why wouldn't I listen to her or listen to anyone
• 23:33
  S2: else as I. I did a tour and I listened
• 23:35
  S2: to many Australians over the past four days. I was
• 23:38
  S2: travelling throughout Queensland.
• 23:39
  S1: So you were. So you'll take her. You'll have conversations
• 23:42
  S1: with her about her policy preferences. That will inform the
• 23:44
  S1: way you go about policy.
• 23:45
  S2: I mean, what do you mean, her policy preferences?
• 23:47
  S1: She's expressed strong views on resources, on defence policy, on
• 23:52
  S1: the posture towards China.
• 23:54
  S2: This. Excuse me.
• 23:55
  S1: It's okay. Take your time.
• 23:59
  S2: Let me just tell you. I've got a number of
• 24:03
  S2: members of Parliament here, two in the lower house. And
• 24:05
  S2: I've got three of my colleagues in the Senate with me.
• 24:08
  S2: We work as a team. We go through the policies
• 24:10
  S2: with our advisors and different ones around me. We talk
• 24:14
  S2: about where we want to take this party with our policies.
• 24:18
  S2: I will listen to other people's advice. Doesn't matter whether
• 24:20
  S2: a Gina Rinehart or whether it's the average person on
• 24:23
  S2: the street where it's small business person. I have a
• 24:26
  S2: revolving door in my office, or I have so many
• 24:29
  S2: people that are constantly coming to me and talking about policies.
• 24:32
  S2: Even last week, family law, um, small business, this is
• 24:36
  S2: constantly being, you know, talked to me about it and
• 24:39
  S2: I listen to people's opinions and advice. And it's us
• 24:43
  S2: as a team, as members of Parliament on which direction
• 24:46
  S2: we take.
• 24:46
  S1: Do you are you a director or beneficiary of the, uh,
• 24:51
  S1: company structure that receives donations for One Nation and receives
• 24:55
  S1: AEC payments?
• 24:56
  S2: Um, I am on the well. Well, the money goes
• 25:00
  S2: back to the party.
• 25:01
  S1: But you're the director of the the entity that receives
• 25:04
  S1: the donations and the AEC payments.
• 25:06
  S2: Well, through it is set up as a structure, but
• 25:10
  S2: it's the party and I am head of the party,
• 25:12
  S2: and I'm the registered officer of the party. And so
• 25:14
  S2: that goes straight back to the party. Um I, I
• 25:21
  S2: am the party agent as well, but you have to
• 25:23
  S2: have a name as the party agent, otherwise you can't
• 25:27
  S2: receive the funding. So yes, I am.
• 25:29
  S1: Who owns the plane that Gina, a an associate of
• 25:33
  S1: Gina Rinehart, donated to the party? Do you own it personally?
• 25:36
  S2: No.
• 25:36
  S1: Who does?
• 25:37
  S2: No. That was a donation to the party.
• 25:41
  S1: Have you ever Mark Latham's made claims around this? Have
• 25:43
  S1: you ever taken private gain or received private gain out
• 25:48
  S1: of any money one nation received from either the AEC
• 25:51
  S1: or donations? No guarantee.
• 25:54
  S2: Guaranteed. Never been accusations that have been thrown around. And
• 25:58
  S2: Mark Latham, can I tell you, has got had no
• 26:02
  S2: inside anything to do with the administration side of the party.
• 26:05
  S2: So those are false allegations which I vehemently deny.
• 26:11
  S1: Okay. We'll go back to him. James Ashby in your
• 26:14
  S1: new general manager, has developed this quite sophisticated new vetting
• 26:17
  S1: system to weed out extremists, people with criminal histories, from
• 26:21
  S1: party official roles and for candidate roles. You've been shutting
• 26:24
  S1: down branches across the country due to suspect characters being
• 26:28
  S1: involved in them. What. What have. What have been the
• 26:29
  S1: issues with the people leading these branches? Are they extremists?
• 26:34
  S2: No, I don't think they're extremists. I've just had a
• 26:36
  S2: conversation actually, um, this morning about, um, with the CEO
• 26:41
  S2: this morning brought it to my attention, I think. And
• 26:44
  S2: I said, well, how many branches is about four, you know,
• 26:47
  S2: people getting the branches or they're getting speakers in and
• 26:51
  S2: he's concerned about it. And I said, well, look, just
• 26:53
  S2: send out a memo to people, be aware of anyone
• 26:56
  S2: who wants to come and talk to the branches who
• 26:58
  S2: may have extremism. And I said, just make them aware
• 27:02
  S2: of it because I don't want these people in the party.
• 27:04
  S1: They kind of on the white supremacist fringe.
• 27:06
  S2: I don't know, Paul. Um, I don't that I don't
• 27:09
  S2: think it's that extreme at all.
• 27:11
  S1: In that direction. Is that the.
• 27:13
  S2: No, not that. No, it wasn't that at all. Said,
• 27:16
  S2: you know, um, whether they've been far right or the
• 27:20
  S2: people that got, he didn't go into any great detail
• 27:23
  S2: with it. I said just make sure that people know
• 27:25
  S2: who they're inviting in. Members invite others and also pool.
• 27:29
  S2: They could be trying to set us up right. So
• 27:33
  S2: even the media will try and set us up to
• 27:35
  S2: get someone to go there as a speaker. Then all
• 27:37
  S2: they've got to start expressing their views. And that's in
• 27:40
  S2: the media. And and I'm being infiltrated by these extremists.
• 27:44
  S2: So it's all the time happening with One Nation has
• 27:47
  S2: set us up all the time. And I've really had
• 27:49
  S2: enough of it.
• 27:50
  S1: Did you make a mistake sticking with your former staffer,
• 27:54
  S1: Sean Black, for as long as you did, given he
• 27:55
  S1: was convicted of sexual assault?
• 27:59
  S2: I tried to give him a fair go, and he
• 28:01
  S2: did his time in prison, and I stuck with him
• 28:03
  S2: because he was trying to make a living for him
• 28:05
  S2: and his family. Now, what do we do with these people?
• 28:08
  S2: What would you like me to do?
• 28:09
  S1: Well, the argument from your critics is that and from
• 28:12
  S1: the coalition is that you've taken a really strong line
• 28:15
  S1: on giving people, people of.
• 28:18
  S2: No.
• 28:18
  S1: Sexual assault, and you've had a hard on crime policy.
• 28:21
  S1: So this contradicts.
• 28:22
  S2: That's absolute rubbish. Don't tell me paedophile. so don't use
• 28:24
  S2: that word with me.
• 28:25
  S1: I'm not suggesting one, but you've you've taken very strong
• 28:27
  S1: positions on law and order. So in a general sense.
• 28:31
  S2: And guess what? He's actually been to prison. He's done
• 28:34
  S2: his time and he had a right to actually get
• 28:36
  S2: on with his life.
• 28:37
  S1: So why do you.
• 28:37
  S2: Say he's he's he's paid his time to society because
• 28:41
  S2: these these people out there are still going with it,
• 28:45
  S2: putting letters around their electorate. And the propaganda that I've
• 28:49
  S2: copped for years and years from these people because they
• 28:52
  S2: don't like to see the rise of one nation. So
• 28:55
  S2: whatever what possible way they can do, they're going to
• 28:57
  S2: do everything they possibly can to destroy one nation, the
• 29:00
  S2: rise of one Nation, because they're scared of our rise.
• 29:03
  S1: So you so you wanted to retain him on staff,
• 29:06
  S1: but he's gone pressure to get rid of him?
• 29:08
  S2: No. Um, it was it was a decision that I
• 29:12
  S2: had to make. And um, and other members of the party,
• 29:15
  S2: of course, people were, were saying to me, look, you
• 29:19
  S2: can't keep him. He's got to, I've got to sack him.
• 29:21
  S2: So anyway, he was. He was sacked.
• 29:23
  S1: I only have a few more, I promise. I know
• 29:25
  S1: you don't have much time. Um, someone who has attracted
• 29:29
  S1: accusations that he's, he's on the kind of fringe of
• 29:31
  S1: the political debate is Sam Bamford. You've he's a big
• 29:34
  S1: supporter of yours online. He runs the Two Worlds Collide podcast. Yeah,
• 29:37
  S1: he's recently and there's been various One Nation characters who
• 29:42
  S1: have expressed admiration for his podcast. He's recently been involved
• 29:45
  S1: in a debate with Remini and some others on the
• 29:47
  S1: right around his ethno nationalist views. He's effectively put an
• 29:50
  S1: argument that to be a true Australian, you need to
• 29:53
  S1: be making a blood and soil argument around the color
• 29:56
  S1: of your skin that only people with white skin can
• 29:59
  S1: be true Australians. That's what Sam Bamford has been saying
• 30:02
  S1: in recent times. Do you agree with that at all?
• 30:04
  S2: No, no.
• 30:06
  S1: Would you?
• 30:06
  S2: Not at all. And I'm not aware of that. But
• 30:09
  S2: Sam Bamford says you know he may support me. That's great.
• 30:13
  S2: Thank you for your support. But and I've done a
• 30:16
  S2: podcast with Sam, you know, but we're not bosom buddies
• 30:19
  S2: or anything like that. Everyone has a right to have
• 30:21
  S2: their opinion. But if that be the case, if you
• 30:25
  S2: said that you can only be Australian if you're white, well,
• 30:27
  S2: that's just ridiculous. And I don't agree with that. And
• 30:29
  S2: I've got people from all different cultural backgrounds. If it
• 30:32
  S2: stood for us as a. And I've got people who
• 30:34
  S2: are close friends of mine and from all different cultural backgrounds,
• 30:37
  S2: so I don't I don't accept that I really need
• 30:41
  S2: to go. I do have a. Yeah, it's 252 I
• 30:44
  S2: do have I told you 130 I've got another meeting
• 30:47
  S2: at 130.
• 30:48
  S1: Do you want to do two two more minutes.
• 30:49
  S2: No, no, I can't, I can't pull.
• 30:54
  S1: Uh, Senator Hansen, thank you for joining us.
• 30:56
  S2: Thank you. All right. Bye bye.
• 31:00
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Tammy Mills with help from
• 31:02
  S1: Debbie Harrington. And our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy
• 31:05
  S1: and Tom McKendrick. Before you go, follow Inside Politics and
• 31:09
  S1: leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. I'm
• 31:11
  S1: Paul Circle. Thank you for listening.