Latest / Upcoming Trial of Nathan Chasing Horse April 14, 2025 / The Shadow Performance Art of Nathan Chasing Horse
Transcript
- Marina Crane: Good morning, ⁓ Marina Crane, so tonight, sorry, it's spring and there's mold out there, affects my allergies. But it's Thursday, the 23rd of April and Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I'll be off to Las Vegas. But I want you to do this podcast. As I'm focusing more on the dynamics of Nathan Chasing Horse from my point of view as an artist as well as being Indigenous and ⁓ looking at the mythologizing of ritual or why people cater to people in positions of power. Because basically that's what Nathan Chasing Horse did. But I'm going to break it down to you and how I see things because a lot of the times that ⁓ I've been around victims and perpetrators and just the whole dialogue of how deep his tentacles went or his web or we'll call his influence, magnetism, I don't know, voyeurism. It's up to you, however you perceive what I'm saying. The reality though is that this is my way of ⁓ trying to navigate and understand things from my point of view as well as I think for people in general who have had this curiosity about him. ⁓ I mean he's a human being, I don't know why people would try to elevate him into more than that but... Through the decades, people have done that with Mahatma Gandhi and even with the present leader in the United States. Okay, so ⁓ just personally, ⁓ when I look at truth and reconciliation, when I look at ⁓ transformative and restorative justice, I have to always look at as an individual. ⁓ And so, Again, I take definitions and I try to relate to them. the topic, there are various topics within this podcast. Right now, forgiveness and grace navigating self-reconing. Because a lot of times we feel lot of guilt or shame or ⁓ humiliation and self-loathing. And it's important to actually realize like, those are painful emotions. Now, why am I mentioning this is because I think a lot of times when we do things ⁓ and we feel ashamed of it or maybe somebody publicly humiliates us or we just feel like who you just feel so bad about who you are. Like it's a healing process. You have to feel those emotions in order to move forward. Facing truth and the embarrassing pain is essential for transformation and ultimately forgiving oneself. That's the hardest thing I think anybody can battle. So that's why I'm starting off this podcast. The question of whether forgiveness of oneself is possible. ⁓ It's a really hard thing to digest because sometimes we just want to shift that blame to other people. So even after committing acts that are deeply troubling, like say if you've been raised in a very Puritan culture and you become promiscuous and you're just thinking, I'm committing these acts, ⁓ you have to really ⁓ self-ruminate, self-digest, really sit in that uncomfortableness and really carefully... have some consideration. So the point of this podcast too, and why I'm starting off this way, because that path of self-forgiveness exists. It's the same reason why I said eliminating self-defeating behavior does exist. The realities of healing do exist. When you forgive yourself, this process is called a state of grace or you're entering into a period of grace because it's a transformation and it it ultimately it's the ultimate goal of forgiving oneself. Now in my journey and how I try to journalize and even use my podcast to to make it simple it requires it requires to be honest with yourself. Now I grew up ⁓ in various cults and one of them was called Moral Re-Arnament which was, ⁓ I think before developed around the middle of World War II and then sort of spread out throughout the world and and plus you know white privilege they've really tried to put their agenda on Indigenous people. So, ⁓ but if you wanted to look it up and look at the history, look under Frank Bookman or even look under the Oxford group or the origins of AA. Anyway, ⁓ this whole honesty of reckoning with oneself. They pushed that. They really pushed it. And my parents, you know, like they'd say, you've got to be honest with yourself. And it was almost like a broken record repeating itself over and over again, because they were so indoctrinated, like as if there's some dark force that they themselves needed to forgive. And yet it was coming from outside of their culture, our culture. Anyway, that's why I have issues with people who... claim to have an answer and try to indoctrinate people. And that's one of the reasons I think why ⁓ my whole ⁓ podcast about Nathan Chasing Horse is important because it has that phenomena. Even though this, grew up seeing non-Indigenous people do this to my family, my grandparents. I was born into it. The juxtaposition the turning point or the right angle or the obtuse or whatever angle. This is reason because Nathan Chasing Horse is indigenous. So yes, I'm going to talk about the phenomena and I have been for the past 20 years because it shifted. Now, I'm going to explain how it shifted from my point of view as an indigenous person, especially female. There is a reasoning behind all this. ⁓ that's the whole point is like when you have somebody in a position of power and ⁓ they avoid the responsibility or they even substitute the accountability with feelings of guilt. Okay, so. that whole guilt complex and all that. It's not really reckoning with how you feel, that self-reckoning. In the context, serves no purpose. There's no purpose served to oneself or others when you substitute genuine accountability. So even though you can be a robot or a puppet and say, oh, we've to be honest with ourselves, honesty is first thing you gotta learn to be honest with what you've done and be you know be you know your your purpose is for one is to you know to serve like because it doesn't serve any purpose unless you actually actually do the work so true self-forgiveness begins with by confronting the full weight of your actions or one's actions during the fire of remorse. Okay, you got to endure the fire, like fire and brimstone, like most of the people who run cults or even people in political positions. You know, it's like that fire, remorse, and the profound fall from grace. Okay, but the thing is, this is the reality. Even though some people use it to manipulate, it's the essence. you the individual who has to feel that fall from grace It's a real feeling and it's a pain one of the most painful emotions Like I said, you've got it. It's it's shame humiliation self-loathing that self hate So even when you're saying to try and eliminate it eliminate self-defeating behavior You're you're it it takes it takes a lot to eliminate that. And in order to eliminate that, you're in the process of actually self-forgiveness. And it's not, like the analogy that when I first started was, driving down a road and there's potholes, and you're driving and you hit the pothole. You know you're hitting the pothole, and each time you're driving, you're hitting each pothole in that highway. The process of eliminating self-defeating behavior in the process of ⁓ feeling that fire or that remorse is to eliminate that self-destructive thinking. And you have to feel shame, have to feel the humiliation, you have to feel self-loathing. It's an uncomfortable emotion ⁓ and ⁓ there are like they're not, it's uncomfortable but you have to feel them because when you're driving down that road and you see that pothole, you know, the more you practice self-forgiveness, the more you feel that shame, humiliation, and self-loathing, self-hatred, each time you see a pothole, you'll learn to avoid it like you're avoiding that denial. You're actually feeling the shame, the humiliation, and the self-loathing as you avoid those potholes. And as time goes by, as you start eliminating some self-defeating thoughts and behaviors, ⁓ suicide, idolation, just self-loathing, as you're driving, it becomes a little easier any time you relapse. The recovery out of those potholes, you avoid those potholes because you can see it coming. So even though it's an uncomfortable emotion, ⁓ it's important that ⁓ the whole process ⁓ is a process of forgiveness. ⁓ Like the driveway or driving down that roadway is through which one must pass. So you have to drive that road only by moving through only by moving through these feelings because again these these potholes are feelings and you're you have to drive through them you can't you know you can't just bump into them and deny that they don't exist because you know you can have to you probably have to get a wheel alignment every time rather than evading them you you really have to look at how you know what it is your avoiding and feeling it. Like I said, that shame, humiliation, self-loathing. But at the same time too, for me, because I've ⁓ had to do this work myself, is to find invisible helping hands or people who can help you ⁓ dissect those thoughts. that those ⁓ idolations, the idea is idling in your mind and you don't even know that you've created that. But when you have narrative and you start talking to people, you can see you're reaching a place of authentic self-forgiveness and grace. See, because when you're talking and you're saying your narrative, you're expressing your authentic self. That's why when I talk and people, sometimes I trigger people and or else they may feel uncomfortable and walk away or, maybe because they have some issue with their grandmother or their mother or their sister and they haven't resolved it. I, I symbolically, ⁓ you know, I'm the person that they're going to sell. They're going to project that stuff onto me. The, the, in whatever I'm talking about and feel uncomfortable, I'm still being my authentic self because I'm trying to get across to my audience, this is who I am, this is authentic self-forgiveness, I'm processing this in a state of grace. Now, skipping the process or using guilt as a substitute only leaves you stuck. Okay, so you can't skip that process even though There's, we call conflict resolution. Or there's that denialism, ⁓ using guilt as a substitute, like people trying to guilt me into ⁓ how I should feel because I'm an elder and ⁓ where are my grandchildren? ⁓ Who's taking care of you? Do you have dementia or Alzheimer's? Will you name it? Be creative about how people want to guilt me or guilt you. But it only leaves one stuck if that, your substitute using that guilt like what they're projecting onto you. Because you accepting it is giving you an ability to move forward. you're facing the truth and embracing the pain is essential for transformation and ultimately forgiving oneself. But again, like I said, that road is the road of shame, the road of humiliation, the road of self-loathing, the road of self-hatred. And each pothole is is using guilt. And you have to get away from that and own those feelings because it's important. It gives you strength. And I really think that when you do that, people in positions of power ⁓ will find it uncomfortable because they haven't gone through this critical work that you've gone through. It gives you a certain... ⁓ what's the word, empowerment. So now part of the podcast too has to deal with with spiritual spirituality or people in positions of power or places where people ⁓ go on a crusade. Like I said my parents went to India when I was 10 and ⁓ the grandson Mahatma Gandhi invited my father and my mother. So there was all this ⁓ print, like Mahatma was known as the Prince of Peace, nonviolence, all over the world. Like I said, I grew up hearing about Mahatma Gandhi, and I even had a joke of how Mahatma Gandhi got his name. And I told my dad, and I said, when you see him, because I was a child, ⁓ I said, when you see him, just say that he was walking ⁓ up a tower, a tower that had no windows. I mean, had windows, but no glass. And he was walking up with his turban. The wind blew and blew his hat or turban off his head out the window. And he ran to the window and yelled, my hat, McGandy. Anyway, that story was told to Mahatma Gandhi's grandson. Anyway, my father did have the courage to tell that story that his daughter had created. I just thought it would help him because he seemed so scared to travel. you know, Mahatma Gandhi, in his final years, ⁓ after his wife had died, ⁓ there was, ⁓ there's a name, ⁓ for celibacy. he, two years after his wife died at the age of 77, he decided to test himself by sleeping with young women. And to, you know, to prove to himself that he can transcend his sexual desire. Okay, so. I mean, he wrote essays about it. took pride in the effort to talk about it. I I talk about my sexuality. But many people just couldn't tolerate his involvement with 17 and 18-year-old grandnieces. And it was... ⁓ You know, it's just the fact that he was this leader, you know, people persuaded, even if they tried to tell him to stop, no one could. His own sense of sanctity made him unsatiable, dynamic of power, unquestionable authority, and silencing of protest. Like, the guy just would not stop. And so when we talk about parallels in terms of power and impunity, and I'm only saying this because, know, Nathan Chasing Horse ⁓ just had it in his mind that he could get away with so much, you know, sleeping with 13, 14, 15-year-olds, and even if people tried to tell him to stop, he would not stop. I mean, I said to him, know, if ⁓ you go to the tribal police and just say that, you know, a lot of young girls are infatuated with you, ⁓ they're making up stories that you're in love with them. And I said, so it's a common place and just explain to them. But see, for me, I hoped he would go because... Realistically, I believed my niece. knew he did unforgivable things with her. I knew that if he did go to the police, if he even, like in hindsight, how foolish am I? He'd been doing all this stuff even probably 10 years, even before he came here. And how foolish was I that he would turn around and change his life around if he would just tell the truth. Because my niece would have confronted him if he had gone to the police. The police would have questioned her and she wouldn't have lied. But also to the gravity, knowing, having met the women who knew him 25, 30, 40 years, and just the progression of his authority or just the ability to get away with things. ⁓ Anyway, power and impunity can be seen in, like I said, even within the present leader, ⁓ you know, like the ability to go into locker rooms and watch young women, you know, undress and... even to the point, like, course, know, Mahatma Gandhi was a spiritual leader who, okay, whereas this other person, the fact that he was awarded, you know, he was paid 85 million, like, just, and at the same time was elected again, you know, because people just thought he was too important to replace. Like that's the whole point is like when is there, ⁓ when do people who support these people ⁓ as a transformative figure immune to accountability? When do they create that? ⁓ know, with Mahatma Gandhi and testimonies even from the world leader. the testimony of victims are minimized, dismissed and seen as distractions from the greater greatness of the men involved. And that's why like Nathan Chase Course's lawyer, even the way he treats, treated the testimony of the victims who, they had to pay for their own coming to the courthouse and lodgings and everything. And the lawyer minimizes, dismisses and just tries to distract from the false greatness of this false man. So even with Gandhi, victims couldn't speak out because their survival depended on him. You know, like he was the breadwinner, whereas the other elected official, you know, he spoke under oath and damages were awarded, yet social reaction echoed the same dismissal of his behavior. So when confronted by the truth, we have to speak about such men without reverence. And the thing is, like, acknowledging these aspects of their histories, we risk re-traumatizing victims and perpetuating cycles of harm. So true integrity requires us to recognize horror for what it is. Otherwise, evil will persist unchallenged. This is the essence of shadow work, to bring light to what has long remained in darkness and to hold power to accountability. So that's the whole premise there that I'm trying to navigate about Nathan Chasing Horse and the integrity of the horror that he committed. I only knew him 20, I knew only of him for the past 20 years, but I'm going back to his whole life and what it is and how it persisted unchallenged. And this is shadow work. So lot of the work he created, and I'm going to go into this in my next part of this podcast, has to do with shadow work and how he used that work to not to keep things in the dark. and remain in the dark and make sure that he wasn't held accountable through a lot of tactics that people just thought, ⁓ no, he's this spiritual person. ⁓ What he's doing and everything he's doing is good. okay, now we're going into the next one in terms of the shadow work. understand this. At the beginning, I talked about forgiveness of self. Because that's where it starts. When you're in a position that you're able and accountable and an adult, then as an adult and understanding what self-forgiveness is, you have a responsibility to present yourself. Or when somebody asks you who you are, that responsibility is up to you to articulate, I am Marina Crane, I am from Soutenna, et cetera. But at the same time too, if I'm doing the performance piece, like as I'm telling about my story, and if it triggers somebody, or they are misogynists, or they have some stereotype of indigenous women, then by all means, let's deal with this here, because I'm not gonna back down. And I say this because when you have cohorts and allies, ⁓ My parents didn't have, and my grandparents. A lot of young people today are struggling with this and I'm trying to get it across to people. If you don't have it in you, the skill set to help our Indigenous youth or just youth in general, refer them to someone who can. Now, this being said, too have been really critical of myself and I'm an artist. So I'm going to use this one artist. She was she's considered the grandmother of performance art and the reason I'm doing this is because you know with Nathan chasing horse and the sweats and Sundance and the fact that he was involved in dances my dances with holes Excuse me ⁓ You know like this whole genre of ⁓ Like the performance the art the you know, the art, the movie pictures, it's performance art. ⁓ So anyway, ⁓ for decades, this particular artist who's a female was normalizing energetic fragmentations under the guise of artistic expression. Now, that's why I'm saying for decades, he normalized energetic fragmentation under the guise of spiritual or artistic expression through sweats and Sundance and dance. He was a traditional dancer who attended Palos, garnering money and making crafts and making sure the people who followed him knew how to do arts and crafts. Simply creating art, like it's like, I am creating and bringing back our culture. Anyway, I'm using him as an example, but I'm also mentioning this woman. who had blended drama, ritualistic gestures, bodily violations, endurance, and audience participation into a form of ritual theater. So much of what I tried to talk about in terms of the Wawipi ceremony, ⁓ Sundance, ⁓ like it's an art form too, but it's also ⁓ how he twisted it. because he blended in the drama. Basically what I'm trying to talk about is he's awakening something traumatic in the people who are participating. He's blended a drama that is catering to just a certain clientele. And so those, ⁓ like even in ⁓ Sundance and piercing, having flesh offerings, the endurance of four days without... food or water, even having people watching and participating in like in Wai'ipi. Wai'ipi is like a ritualistic theater. Okay, so he created, he had followers who weren't indigenous. He set up this whole theatrical session within this Wai'ipi ceremony and I'm only bringing it in light of art. Okay, I don't want to ⁓ bastardize it and say this is taboo because This has been going on for the beginning of time and this particular artist that I'm talking about, she's the grandmother of performance art. So it's out there in the art world, ⁓ theater. It presents itself as creativity but functions as a psychological initiation into chaos and survival, often leading participants and observers into disassociation. Okay, so that's the crux of it. It's as creativity in terms of the Wipi ceremony. I'm only focusing on that because there's so many dynamics to different skill sets of spiritual people with Indigenous communities. And so I think it's in the same sense of artists. People have different skill sets as well. But the function of what Nathan Chasing Horse was doing was a psychological initiation into chaos. So lot of the people who attended had been children who'd been traumatized, or maybe they were high risk teenagers already, or high risk young adults in chaos and survival. So they already didn't have any support systems in place, or they didn't have... ⁓ trained ⁓ people to help guide them through eliminating a self-defeating behavior. They didn't have anybody to guide them into actually feeling emotion, often leading participants and observers into a disassociation. the disassociation part of it is a psychotic state where they create ⁓ an illusion or delusion and And so for him, it's like he's relishing it, he's bathing it, he's like really enjoying that energy because it's chaotic. It's disassociating ⁓ the people who are participating because they're all in survival mode. And for him, having grown up in poverty, it's just like mocking his own, like I said, in denial. ⁓ Like he's creating a false sense of forgiveness. It's artificial. so a lot of times, even with this particular artist that is the grandmother of performance art, she uses her passive body to act out to the audience in various objects. like including weapons. So these weapons would be there for them to use against her. This was a live experimental experiment in trauma bonding. Now, even too, like I said, in the ritual or in the performance piece, it's the audience participating in ceremony. So say for example, if Nathan said to someone, I need you to do this and this and this, and that person would just obey to the max, would go around telling everybody, no, he wants it this way, this way, this way, this way. So ⁓ this live experiment, it's a live experiment in trauma bonding. So for this artist, she would put herself on a blank slate and invite collective. collective shadow of crowd to manifest. So when I talk about shadow work, even within the Wauwipi, it's all black. And all the people there, he's lying in a blank state on the floor wrapped up in a star blanket. ⁓ And around him, he's got people singing. And again, there's a collective ⁓ of shadow of the crowd that is manifested. The audience, just like in this performance art with this woman, the audience responded like stripping her and revealing what happens when unconscious collective impulses meet no resistance. So she's lying there and they've got these objects where they can like there are weapons that they with very like various objects and they could do whatever they want to her while she's lying on this blank slate. Now with Nathan Chasing Horse he's he's lying on this blank slate wrapped up in this in this star blanket but again this is completely black dark nobody sees him all they hear are people singing and ⁓ him talking like muffled in his voice, you know, asking the audience, if the particular members in the audience, if they have any questions. See, the work, her work, this artist's work was not intended to heal. And the thing is like with Nathan Chasing Horse's work as a performance art, and again, I'm using performance art, his work was not intended to heal. Understand this. even though he had a cult following, the understanding and the definition of healing, as I explained in eliminating a self-defeating behavior, has to do with actually owning it, like driving that road of self-hatred, that whole way of self-forgiveness. And this performance artist, like I said, she's lying there. ⁓ but rather to diagnose exposed sickness within the human field and embedding it even deeper. for her, she's allowing the crowd to, like I said, there's this, it's the darkness of ⁓ them doing like experimented and trauma bonding. So the audience is stripping at her, revealing what's happened to the unconscious collective when they meet no resistance. So the people in the WIPI ceremony, how can Nathan resist? He's tied up. Or so they think he's tied up. OK, so the work is not intended to heal, like I said. Rather, it's to diagnose, expose. the sickness within the human field. a lot of times within the audience, Nathan will ask like, what sickness is there? Embedding it into a deeper like, ⁓ like they've tried everything. They've tried modern medicine. It's not working. Okay, so that's how he brings in people into this manifestation because they've disassociated from what is real. So that's why when I'm talking to people, I say, when you go into these ceremonies, and you're trying to understand ⁓ your own, how you feel. Always make sure that you have a balance. Like if you're in there trying to heal, use what they're saying, but also use modern medicine. Or if you're in there and there's trauma, also go to a therapist. You cannot just have one by itself, because this is a performance piece. See, that's what I want to... ⁓ why I wanted to do this podcast because the sentencing of Nathan Chasing Horse is coming up Monday the 27th. And the whole idea of trauma bonding and his experiments through the past 20 years with really vulnerable people who had a very difficult time in eliminating self-defeating behavior. And the reality of it is like In Indigenous communities, we do not have qualified therapists. We do have spiritual people, but we need to have a balance of both working together to help heal an individual. In our families, we as one family cannot heal. We need to have a collective, holistic approach to even helping one person. So again, I go back to the performance piece, the art of the currency of pain. Now this performance artist, she She has turned disassociation into currency. Pain becomes present. Silence becomes skeptical. And stillness becomes invitation. The body is transformed into an altar, but the altar leads nowhere sacred. Okay, so again, for each Wawipi ceremony, what cost $5,000 for people to participate. So Nathan Chasing Horse. operating under the guise of a weepy ceremony. Okay, just as this art is performance artists is under the guise of art has turned disassociation into currency. So Nathan chasing her horse has changed disassociation into like the disassociation into currency. The same thing, same process. The only difference is the the Like she's saying it's art, but it's not. Nathan is saying this is spiritual and ceremony, which it's not. They're both taking pain. Pain becomes present. Because again, he's wrapped up in this star blanket in the dark, just like his shroud. ⁓ Silence becomes the spectacle. So him, until somebody speaks to him, he's silent. And the stillness becomes an invitation because everybody's waiting for some sort of transformation into the altar. So some of his supporters would ⁓ either, I don't know, with say marijuana or hashish or I don't know, ⁓ have lights or trickery like ⁓ abracadabra stuff. to change, transform that altar, but the altar leads nowhere sacred. Okay, so all this is just hocus pocus. But at the same time too, understand this. These are people going into a psychotic state, hallucinating. There is no trained professional, there are no elders there to talk to them into what is real and what is not. It is not And so the artist, this is not about transcendence, endurance. Okay, so he's enduring this being wrapped up just as this woman has been lying on this flat piece, having people hit her. It's not about transcending. Like again, it's not about forgiveness of self. This is just about endurance. There is no integration, no return, no wisdom, only fragmentation on display. So you hear him singing and talking and all that's all, it's all integrating. There's no wisdom, no return. The trauma loop is repackaged as performance. Okay, so again, this is looping. Okay, again, just like when I said you're driving down that road and you keep hitting it, you relapse and recovery. You know, it's just repackaged as performance. And the spiritual ritual surface in works such as this woman's performance piece where she took blood and ritualistic phrases smeared onto walls, just as like with Nathan Chasinghorse, ⁓ know, know, untying himself in the darkness. You know, he's, he, the... He's repack, he's, the spiritual ritual surfaces in its work ⁓ as well as body, like so whatever is happening in terms of ⁓ occult symbolism, like he's, he, they were not just merely symbolic, it openly channels esoteric practices into public domain. Okay, so he's changed, he's taken things, and he's put them in the public domain just like her, collapsing the boundaries between private occult ritual and public art. Okay, so for Nathan Chasing Horse, it's collapsing between the private occult ritual and he's combining them into the Wuyipi ceremony. Okay, so they're collapsing those boundaries because like I said, if there was an elder present, this practice ⁓ wouldn't have gone into a public domain because it has to do with a lot of ⁓ relatives, relationships within the community, which goes back thousands of years in terms of when you say we're all related, all my relatives, because that is what the role of the elder is. And in Indigenous culture, we're ⁓ matrilineage. So that whole reality, Nathan Chasing Horse didn't have that. He was very patriarchal, know, very rich, what do they call that, colonial mindset. So ⁓ esoteric practices. Again, I'm using such big, openly channeling, esso-centric ⁓ passages, practices, sorry. So ⁓ I'm trying to ⁓ say to the people who are like me, who don't really have a good handle on some words, I'm just trying to say ⁓ it's... ⁓ It means public knowledge or deep lore or forgotten media only to devoted fans. like I said, it's openly channeling only the followers, those practices, and he's putting them into public domain, mystical or secret teachings. Like that's what this performance artist was doing, even though like she's lying on this platform. So taking that and saying, know, the boundaries, when we talk about healthy boundaries, they've collapsed. Okay, even though it's... Supposedly public art and people are paying her to do this. It's the same thing with Nathan Chasing-Lor's. People were paying big money to come into the Wai'ipi ceremony. Same thing, just a different, you know, different, no gallery, no, no museum where they can perform this. Desensitization and ritual normalization. Okay, so the true function of such figures is gradually shifting esoteric practices. Again, those are private practices followed by people in that ritual or that cult into exoteric. Blurring lines between theater and invocation and normalizing ritual. Okay, so she's taking something that... you know like the practice and making it extra echoes echo like like the lecture like so so it's intended for or likely to be understood by only small members of people specialized with specialized knowledge that's that's the ⁓ esoteric now the exoteric in so Isoteric and exoteric. Exoteric and again, I'm sorry, hey, I'm trying to define these things for you. ⁓ Okay, so exoteric public common knowledge, esoteric private specialized knowledge, exoteric linear or plain meaning, esoteric hidden symbolic or inner meaning, and ⁓ exoteric taught openly, esoteric shared selectively among initiates. basically both this artist, this performance artist, who's the grandmother of performance pieces, and I'm using Nathan Choisinghorst as an example, they're openly channeling these private to public. domains collapsing any boundaries there, you know, like the lines are being blurred and because they're normalizing the ritual, again, it is not for healing but for desensitization. Desensitization. Okay, so when people openly go into the Wuyipi ceremony, that's not for healing. It wasn't for healing. What he used it for was to desensitize people who went in openly and willingly. So just as you go to a museum and you see this woman doing this performance piece, she operates as an energetic transmuter for the elite, mirroring, channeling their trauma. In this sense, she acts as a spiritual on a laundromat converting the grotesque into glamour. She extends audience. Her extended audience is not just the general public, but the invisible class who deal with code, symbolism and frequency. The wider audience is merely background noise. OK, so you got to understand this. This is why when Nathan Chasinghor's was grooming and trafficking. He's energetically transmuting for the elite, mirroring and channeling their trauma. You know, he acted as a spiritual laundromat converting grotesque into glamour. So the grotesque in things that, you know, they feel ashamed of, something that they've done that They feel as unforgivable and he's put it into something glamorous. He extended his audience. It's not the general public. Okay, so not all people who are... Let me put it this way. If you are feeling... and you felt shame and you felt all this and you've been able to eliminate ⁓ a self-defeating thought, then you're not... You're the general public. You're not... Nathan Chasing Horse was focusing more on people who were traumatized. You know he could spot them this invisible class who deals in code symbolism and frequency so these are people who somehow have been disassociated and and for whatever reason like the the the the other people who are functioning who have ⁓ Let's say have come to the point of understanding self-forgiveness ⁓ For the for that for them. It's just ⁓ background noise But it's, again, I'm talking about performance pieces in terms of performance art. So you as my audience can understand the symbolism and whatever codes or frequencies that people who followed Nathan Chasing Horse walked into and lived for. for years and years and years. And so when people say, didn't they stop him? How come people didn't, how come he wasn't caught sooner? Okay, because again, when he's doing the performance, he's doing it for a specific audience, just like this artist, this well-known grandmother performance art. She's known all over the world. I'm using her as an example. the inverted mystic or the power and fragility. So this lady ⁓ wears a face of a witch, the oracle, the mystic. So Nathan Chasing Horse wears the face of a medicine man, an oracle, a mystic. Like he really played the part. Okay, whatever Hollywood painted, that's what he played. We're talking about colonial mindset here, just like this woman. Her power is inverted channeling fragmented feminine and post-traumatic in the post-traumatic bond So he's inverted channeling fragmented fragmented masculine post-trauma body Okay, so again because of genocide in the Americas Nathan chasing course could do that he could do that by violated, you know the medicine man clings to relevance through ⁓ mesochism. So again, the same thing as Nathan Chasing Horse. This woman would do this. Her heart does not heal. Nathan Chasing Horse heart does not heal. It feeds on unresolved pain. That's why I say he was born this way. He's a psychopath. Unresolved pain. His performance thrives on voyeurism of the public. Okay, in other words, the people who can feel. That's the public. He feeds off of that. But yet there's a slight group of people who want to belong into that private part, that secret that they're going to see and have and hold. ⁓ So who they hunger to feel something in an era remarked with numbness. Now, the reason I'm using this analogy of this performance public art and with Nathan Chasinghors, this is society as a whole. This is society as a whole because then that's why I mentioned Mahatma Gandhi and a world leader. You know, like hello. The society as a whole era, what we're in is a period of numbness. So for the past 20 years or so, the evolution of the inability to feel artificial intelligence, the inability to go through conflict resolution, the inability to form intimate bonds, whatever is there and the reason people don't want to feel humiliation, they don't want to feel self-loathing. You know, this is part of the human condition. We need to feel these things because it helps us heal. So this performance artist does not remind audiences of their power. Just like Nathan Chasing Horse did not remind the audience that they are in the position of power, but rather their fragility. Okay, so again, you know, people coming into the Will Weepie ceremony. who've never connected to a community, maybe they've been adopted or maybe they've got some biological, you know, maybe they're fetal alcohol syndrome effects, whatever, he, know, the audience, rather, the fragility of them, that's why I focus on unresolved trauma. The audience is fragile. He's marketing himself. to recruit, to groom, and traffic. Much like this performance artist because she gets paid big money. This ultimately is why this artist is funded and celebrated by those who benefit from such display. That's why when people say, ⁓ gee, you know this woman was in charge of murdered and missing indigenous women and she was supporting Nathan Chasing Horse and so was her daughter or like our chief supporting Nathan Chasing Horse, blah, blah, blah, blah. How I'll circuit everybody. Okay. They funded him. They funded her him. His performance thrived on voyeurism from of the public hunger to feel something in an era of numbness. So even for up for me to say, there's a fire. There's a fire. People are numb. So what if there's a fire? No. There's a fire. It's in a place of darkness. This darkness is allowing people in positions of power to hurt and do things that are unforgivable. And so this legacy of ⁓ ritual abuse has gone on from the beginning of time. And like I said, when people get into positions where they become spiritual leaders and they perceive themselves to be untouchable. they're not. You have to navigate your own self-recognition. You have to understand your own forgiveness and what grace feels like for you as an individual. You know, I don't like using the word evil, but you know, it persists, unchallenged. So, ⁓ you know, you've got to recognize the horror of what it is. You have to ⁓ acknowledge it. ⁓ or else we are going to re-traumatize victims and keep perpetuating that cycle of harm. So for me, going down to the sentencing of Nathan Chasing Horse is to celebrate, to honor those victims who have chosen to navigate self-rekening, to stand in their power of forgiveness and grace. because they were able to challenge evil. They were able to have integrity and recognize the horror for what it is and was and still persists. So yes, self-forgiveness exists. It's called grace. Just like self-defeating, eliminating a self-defeating behavior is possible. But you have to have honest reckoning with oneself. And it just doesn't take a week or a day. It takes a lot of invisible helping hands helping you along the way. And you have to have the courage to feel safe when you're doing this. And you cannot avoid the responsibility or substitute it with feelings of guilt. Guilt in this context serves no purpose. for oneself or others. You cannot project guilt onto people. That serves no purpose. True self-forgiveness begins by confronting the weight of your own actions during enduring that fire and the profound fall from grace because you are the one who is there to feel often that painful emotion. of shame, humiliation, self-loathing and self-hatred. It's an uncomfortable object, but it's a road that we have to drive. And I hope that you understand what I'm talking about. As an artist, that's the only analogy that I can give in terms of the experience of having been the technician to have a ⁓ WIPI ceremony set up for Nathan Chasing Horse. The whole dissection of what I just explained, because I'm an artist, I have my degree in fine arts. I really didn't understand how gifted I was. I knew when I was five years old, but it's taken me a lifetime, a lifetime of self. Self-forgiveness, you know, I had to walk that road of shame, that road of humiliation, that road of self-loathing, that road of self-hatred. If I can do it, you can do it. If you can have authentic self-forgiveness and grace, even when I say invisible helping hands, you reach a place where you feel that you can move forward, that you're not stuck. The truth Facing the truth and embracing the pain is essential for transformative and ultimately forgiveness of oneself. So when I talk about transformative and restorative justice, this is the process. And as Indigenous people, we need to do this for the people we love and those that love us. We need to do those for people who still are yet to come and be born into our families, our communities. What we grew into in systemic racism. this foundation that we found ourselves born into. As we're living it, we need to walk and embrace and also release. So that being said, I'm grateful that I have an opportunity to have a podcast and to reach out to you, my audience, and hoping that you have a wonderful Thursday and that I'm going to ⁓ try and publish some interviews with some of the women who have fought for years, decades to get this man put behind bars. And like so many, like myself and others, I know you're out there in my audience. I know you have felt the sting of this man. You understand what it is I'm talking about and that the process of learning to self forgive is important because so many people are depending on us. And as Indigenous women, there's a Dakota song where they talk, where we sing about the people are depending on us because we're matriarch. And I'm just grateful that I'm able and educated enough to reach out and try to help people understand there's no magic wand, there's no ⁓ secret society ⁓ as we get older and as we try to even understand ourselves. I mean, I'm aging. I have to always be conscious of my own memory. ⁓ The likelihood of having dementia or Alzheimer's as you get old, that's our new reality. So anyway, again, it's Thursday, ⁓ Friday, Saturday, and then Sunday I'm off. I'll be in Las Vegas. ⁓ If you want to add a comment or email me, I'm on social media, I'm on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, ⁓ so many other ⁓ social media places, but I'm putting myself out there and hoping people understand and not try to romanticize. To romanticize is putting yourself in danger, just like you romanticize a performer's artist because they get big. They get paid big money for something that is only ⁓ for an elite audience. And for that performance artist out there, their elite audiences, their elite audience are rich and powerful millionaires. And for Nathan Chasinghors, he did have quite a few influential people supporting him. Thank you.