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Community: When It’s Hard and Why It’s Worth It · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. Hey, this week I'm joined by
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Jessica Rusk, one of our Connection Formation pastors,
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and she is going to kind of guide a conversation because I
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was the one who actually brought the message on Sunday.
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And we're talking about community.
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And it gets super complicated. We're supposed to be in
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community. We can't thrive without it.
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And yet community is sometimes the worst.
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So painful and yet so beautiful when done correctly.
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So we're gonna talk about that. Let's dive right in.
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Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to the Right Couch
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Theology podcast where Alex is not joining, but Jessica Rust is
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joining and I preach the message.
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So she's gonna host a little bit, but be maybe some of you
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don't know who she is and what she does around here at South.
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And so I'm gonna start by hosting.
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I didn't tell her I was gonna do this and ask her Who are you?
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It's been a while since you've been on the show.
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And what are you doing now? Because it's different.
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Yeah, so last time I was on the show, I was the director of
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pastoral care. So helping meet the needs of the
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community, whatever the forms those might take.
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And now I'm one of our Co pastors of connection and
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formation. So from the first interactions
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and steps into our community towards building roots, making
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friendships, finding your place at South and continuing on your
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steps to grow in the way of Jesus with the heart of Jesus
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all the way through alongside Angela Dunn.
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That's awesome. Yeah, yeah.
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And I super grateful to have both Angela and Jessica on on
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this connection formation team. And technically this podcast
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falls in that department. So I think it's super fun.
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You might see them pop up a little bit more, especially when
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our fearless leader is frolicking abroad.
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Yeah, so kind of fun. I'm also trying to produce the
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show, so I'm going to quick change this and get it so that
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it's possible for me to share my Bible software in case we need
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it. But yeah, how's how's things
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going? Good for you.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Just, you know, summer. Summer time.
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All right, well, I'll pass the hosting of back off to you then.
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Well, so for those who didn't get to hear this week's sermon
2:32
already, they might not know we started a new series called
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Anchored. So once you have everything
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pulled up on your computer, why don't you tell us a little bit
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more about what this series is and why this is what we're
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focusing on this summer? Yeah, well, it was kind of fun
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for me 'cause this is the first time I've ever like written a
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series and the premise for a series.
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So. So we're the little back story
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for that is Alex typically travels overseas to see his
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family in Europe in the summertime.
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And it costs a lot of money to do that.
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So when they go, they go for a few weeks, you know, like
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doesn't make sense to go there for a couple days.
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So as a result, I end up the last two summers I've been able
3:17
to preach a couple in a row. And this time he said, well, why
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don't you just write the whole series for even if you don't
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preach all of them? And so it was an opportunity I
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hadn't taken advantage of in the past.
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And so I as I was praying about six months ago, I was on a run
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and summer series. You guys don't maybe you don't
3:36
care about this, but little mechanism behind the scenes of
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what it means to like be a preaching preacher regularly and
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running a church. Summertime is a tricky place to
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put series because people are traveling like crazy.
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And so I would have loved in so many ways just of how I'm wired
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to do a book study or something like that.
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Just because there's a lot of peace in my mind knowing that
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What are you teaching this week, the next verse or the next
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section? That would have been easier for
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me, but because it's a summer series, I felt like the messages
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needed to not build on each other as fully or not
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necessarily. And so I was like, how do I do
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this? And you can do Psalms, sometimes
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you can do proverbs, sometimes you can.
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But the messages need to be a little bit more stand alone.
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So I was pondering and wrestling through it and I was out for run
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and thinking about our community just scattering around and on
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vacations and visiting families in the summers.
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And, and the idea popped in my head as I was jogging along that
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like, I, I hope that our community is a place where
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people feel like this, this draw to even when they're out, not
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here where they feel like that's my home, that I'm anchored
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there. And that word anchored popped in
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my mind And I was like, well, maybe is there anything there?
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And I honestly just kept praying and asking the Lord about that.
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So that word anchored popped in my mind as more like a longing
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for a community that that S would feel like a place where
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people could put down roots and felt like a ballast in their
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soul, as it were. And then the other thing that I
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was pondering is how some of the most important relationships in
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my life, like my relationship with my wife for example, they
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are almost by design reduce my personal freedom and increase my
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general formation and like long term good for my own soul.
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And so I just sort of pondered that a little bit.
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And then I went to some study time that week and started
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noticing there's a lot of these things throughout the Scriptures
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where God actually limits our freedoms intentionally for our
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good. And then so that's where the
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original idea came from for the series.
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So I don't know if that fully answered all of your questions,
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but and then as I continued to study for the last six months,
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it just started coming out everywhere.
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And you know, when something's on your mind, you start to
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notice it everywhere. And we are humans are the kinds
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of creatures that need limitations.
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And so in order for us to thrive, we don't thrive with
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maximum freedom, actually. So that's what the series is.
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Getting that. So this first week was on being
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anchored in community. So why did you see community as
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something that we need to be anchored in?
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Why choose to start with that? Oh man, did did I choose the
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right one to start with? That's a different question.
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I don't know. There was a little bit of a flip
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of the coin for which one to start with, but part of the
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point of the series was that if anyone came in, in and out of
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the series, all of these anchors, you're going to be
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beneficial. So if you miss a few or
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whatever, fine. Why did I choose that to start?
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Partially because that was the seed of where the series came
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from is this prayer that like I hope when people are traveling,
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they know they've got this safe place to go home to where they
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feel anchored, and that's what it means to be part of a
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community. And so that's the main reason
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why I started there. Yeah, that that a healthy Christ
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centered community has this ability to to sort of anchor
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your soul to, to goodness, to rhythm, to common worship, to
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all of these different kinds of things.
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And so that's why I started there, if that makes sense.
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Yeah. What is it?
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What does it look like to be anchored in community then?
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Is it just like it means you've picked a place, it means you're
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showing up every week? Is there like boxes to check or
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is it a little bit more? All those things, definitely
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boxes to check. If you guys haven't been
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checking your boxes, you're in sin.
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So no. I'm just.
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That's exactly what we want you to get.
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Yeah. We just want to guilt and shame
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you into being good. That's what it's about here.
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So no, I'm just, I'm just joking, obviously.
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But so let me just sort of summarize through this passage,
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the passage that we looked at was this first, first
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Corinthians 12, which it's this section in First Corinthians 12
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is an illustration of something he's talking about related to
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unity in the in the church in Corinth.
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And so the what he mean, what he says it means to be anchored to
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community is that you're part of a body and you every part of the
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body needs the other parts in order to be a, a whole body,
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obviously. And so it's a really powerful
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illustration that's also really accessible and easy, like the,
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you know, the hand can't say to the eye, I don't need you all
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this kind of language that Paul uses in the as this is an
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illustration. So what's it mean to be anchored
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in community? It first it means you have to
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acknowledge that, that you're a part of a larger entity and then
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embrace that as something that's for your good.
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And that that means you can't just run off and do whatever you
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want and still thrive. Like, yeah, you can be, you can
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amputate an arm. It's not going to thrive.
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You can, you know, there's parts of the body that if you
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amputate, you can literally not live.
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And the part that's amputated always dies.
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Now ultimately Christ is the head of the church.
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We know from other Paul's writings all those sorts of
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things. And So what it means to be part
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of the body and to acknowledge that is to recognize by design,
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human beings are not meant to function properly in isolated
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spaces. And that's very counterintuitive
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to American culture. But it's just how we are made as
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creatures. And so to deny it is to deny
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your very God's design for you as a as a human being.
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So of practically speaking, to get at your question, what's
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that mean? It means the acknowledgement
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that that's who you are by design, and then a commitment to
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engage that reality in some healthy ways.
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Are there hard, fast rules you have to show up every single
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time? And all those sorts of things
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that no, we're also individuals. This is the complexity of
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reading the scriptures. There's all these tensions.
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You're an individual and you're part of a whole, which this text
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emphasize. Like actually if you look at the
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structure of it, there is a little bit of a chiastic
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structure here where Paul goes like.
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What's chiastic mean? So yeah, thank you.
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Sorry, now I'm just rambling all this exciting stuff that I
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studied. So it's not a full chaism, but
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the chiastic structure is like the in this case, it's a little
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bit more of an A. If you think of an outline in on
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a paper that you write or something like that, or an
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outline of an argument, you have like bullet point A and then sub
11:23
point BC and so forth. Well, a chiasm is sort of an
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ABCBA. So it like goes in and out.
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Now this isn't a full chiasm. It's actually just more of a, an
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AB conversation. So he makes, what do I mean by
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that? So it's like if you were to put
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it on an outline, I wish I had drawn up for you, But if you're
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putting an outline, it's like a point A, point B, repeat of
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point B back to point. A and the repeated part in the
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middle is like the real meat of the argument.
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This is the part that he really wants you to get and focus in
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on. Totally now, which is why this
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is in a full chiasm, because there's only four, so there's no
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middle. Yeah, usually it's that C part
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that's really the here this. Piece So this isn't a true
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chiasm, but it what it is is it's a it's a it's not even an
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ancient structure. We use this today too.
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Chiasms are much more of an ancient structure that's
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designed where the main points in the middle, like you said.
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But in this case, it's a a repetitive structure trying to
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emphasize that two different things both need to be
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prioritized. So he goes ABBA and the A is
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you're an individual, and that's good.
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Hold that. That's a huge important thing.
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B you can't survive without being part of the whole.
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B Again, you can't survive without being part of the whole.
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All the individuals are important.
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So it's a way of Paul saying both two things at the same time
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that feel like they're almost in conflict.
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But to try and force you to deal with both realities
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simultaneously, which that's actually really hard for the
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human brain to do, is to retain seemingly contradictory ideas in
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the same space. Yeah, we don't like tension.
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Totally. And so that's what part of why
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Paul does this, he's he's trying to say individualism is really
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important. Like he's not trying to say
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everyone has to be identical. He emphasized it in this passage
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by saying, like, you might be a hand, you might be an eye, you
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might. So at all the uniqueness, every
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individual is unique. And then over and over again
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going back, oh, by the way, they're all useless without the
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whole everyone. So it allows him to say both at
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the same time, which is really kind of a cool way of thinking
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about it. So anyway, so I don't, I don't
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remember what the original question was, but.
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Practically, what it What is it like to be part of the
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community? Yeah, where we started.
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With so that's so that's why I got off on that rabbit trail.
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But it's that you do you do have uniqueness to you, Yeah.
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And then to that uniqueness is designed to function inside of a
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hole. Yeah, you talked a little bit
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about the yall Ness of scripture and how most of the time we take
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it as a me, but it's actually being addressed to the community
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and to the whole and that's where we really flourish and
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come alive. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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And I think I don't know, maybe the controversial, I don't know
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if anyone caught it, but the semi controversial made
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statement I made related to the y'all is that the Spirit, the
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work of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit and even in earlier
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in first Corinthians is given to the community, not to the
15:08
individual, at least in Corinthians.
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And I it that made you've been, I was told growing up like God
15:16
gave me the Holy Spirit. And yes, that's true.
15:20
And so there again, this tension, well, is it given to
15:24
individuals or is it given to the church?
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And I think the scripture's answer is yes, yeah.
15:30
It's both. But I think the way that Paul
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would actually think about it, because he Paul doesn't really
15:35
tend to think as individualistic as we do in the West.
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I think the way he would describe it as the gifts of the
15:43
spirit that indwells you only functions and is empowered when
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it works inside the context of the y'all or the whole, which I
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made some statements about that on Sunday.
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Like maybe if you don't feel empowered, maybe if you don't
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feel like you're actually living that, it's because you're trying
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to exercise that gifting or expect the spirit to be fully
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awake in an autonomous space. That's very anti American, you
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know. And we're, and we're not
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necessarily used to putting that into practice necessarily.
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Like, and some of us don't even know enough of what it means
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about like, what is my superficial gift?
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Who am I really? How am I wired to even begin to
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think about one? What would I bring to the
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community? Yeah, Yep.
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So there's yeah, that's a that's a fascinating point.
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And so you inherently, the scriptures teach that you are a
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unique member designed to fit inside of this hole.
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So there's 2 problems with that one like you're just saying that
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I didn't even really address. Some of us don't even know what
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that means, like what is the gift?
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But the other side of that is that is the formation side.
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Like we might as we're trying to grow spiritually, a lot of time
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in the West is given to how to do that as an individual.
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Yeah, there's so many resources of.
17:24
Prayer, read the Bible, all these things, you'll go for a
17:28
walk, meditate, there's just a litany of things and we're like,
17:32
Oh yeah, I'm tracking, I'm tracking, I'm tracking, I'm
17:34
tracking. And I think the texts like this
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hint at that's insufficient. You can't do full-fledged,
17:45
thriving spiritual formation outside of community.
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And there's, I think that this, the New Testament shouts in the
17:53
face of that that's just not an option because the spirit
17:56
doesn't fully awaken in the soul outside of the all.
18:00
So yeah, I guess in that front, yeah, you have lots of things to
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think through there. What?
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What am I made for? And remember that as you're
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answering that question, part of the answer is that the gift is
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meant to be expressed inside of the community.
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Great. And I think there's a challenge
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in there for everyone in the community of there's a balance
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between OK, well you need to participate, but as a community
18:30
you also need to invite, right? And it's not just, OK, well, you
18:35
know, suck it up and find your place.
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Like just try harder, good luck. But you can also just wait for
18:43
eventually someone to pull you in and put you in a place.
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You need to take those steps to find your spot in the community,
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find who your community is and make those roots be anchored.
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But also the community needs to be actively aware of helping
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people find their place and connecting with others and
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issuing those invitations and welcoming people.
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And and if as a community we're not doing that, then we as a
19:13
body are also feeling the members of our community.
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Yeah, which I think like if I pull this up on the past, I
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think this text actually deals with both of those kind of
19:24
tensions. If I go text here, if you get
19:29
down here, this first movement, you so this this first
19:35
paragraph, he's basically like he gets his make 30,000 foot
19:39
thesis. You know, we're all unity, we're
19:41
all part of the body, but we have uniqueness.
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And then 15 he says, because I'm not a hand, I do not belong to
19:48
the body or because I'm not an I do not belong to the body.
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And so that's that's one of the challenges is saying like I
20:00
don't have much to offer. And then later on it's a
20:06
different tone of voice. The I cannot say I don't need
20:09
you. So there's like this, the sense
20:13
of autonomy that I want to protect.
20:16
You know, I don't I don't need anyone on this sort of like I'm
20:18
an island kind of concept. And all throughout what he's
20:25
saying is that. No, you on both sides.
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The community itself needs to invite all the parts in.
20:33
They can't say I don't need you. And then if you don't think you
20:37
have to offer, you have to lean in.
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So as the individual has to lean into the community knowing I do
20:43
have something to offer. So there's the effort on the
20:45
individual part. And then from the community
20:48
perspective, the community has to say I actually do need them.
20:53
Yeah. So there's kind of this
20:54
handshake in the taking place in this text, so.
20:58
To use a a body phrase. Yeah, perfect.
21:01
No fun intended. So what would you say to someone
21:04
who has had difficult, painful experiences with community and
21:12
yet they're hearing? But you need a unique community.
21:15
You need to be anchored? How do you balance some of those
21:19
things? Yeah, I spent a bunch of time
21:25
thinking about this because this is actually one of the well,
21:30
Paul addresses this in this text.
21:31
You he acknowledges difficulties and the like.
21:35
The massive irony of who he's writing this church this letter
21:38
to. It's a by definition difficult.
21:40
Community, it is not a healthy church community in this stage.
21:44
Like there's literally people, some people are feasting and
21:48
getting drunk during like communion time in their worship
21:54
gatherings and other people are starving to death and they're
21:58
not sharing. Like that's not exactly a a
22:01
recipe for this. Like super life giving
22:04
everybody's part of the whole. That's that's not what your
22:06
community should look. Like that's who he's talking to.
22:09
So with that said, but I think I think that that was the lesson
22:15
that I tried to communicate on Sunday is this is just how it
22:21
is. You need community.
22:24
There's a ton of pain with that. So that that, but we can't deny
22:28
reality of how we're designed as creatures.
22:31
So keep trying. That may mean some shifts where
22:37
you maybe there's some some some justification for you needing to
22:41
find a different set of community or something like
22:44
that. But to just tap out and just say
22:47
I'm not doing this game anymore. I'm going to become an island
22:50
and alone, I'll do my own spiritual formation.
22:53
That isn't an option according to the New Testament.
22:57
So what do you do with that pain?
23:00
I think you wrestle through it with a good father who sees
23:04
that, who was stabbed in the back by some of his closest
23:07
friends in so many ways, who was denied by Peter.
23:11
All like Jesus knows what it's like to be in difficult
23:14
relationships or God, God in general, like his people who he
23:22
gives everything for and loves and cares for, and they just
23:26
deny him and they make mistakes and they disobey him.
23:28
They disengage relationship over and over again.
23:31
God knows what it's like and running to his heart and saying,
23:37
how do I navigate this forward? For me, I felt that so many
23:44
times in different seasons here at the community.
23:46
I have people who will leave for reasons that I think are petty
23:49
or whatever. And it, and as I've evaluated
23:53
the emotions of that, the reason it hurts so much is because I
23:58
loved them and I wanted I wanted to be in relationship with them
24:02
and their departure was painful. And I completely understand the
24:07
tendency and I've had years even while I've been here at South
24:11
where I shut down and, and then God's kindness, he sort of
24:19
healed some wounds and pointed out the reality of how I'm
24:23
supposed to function and invited me back into the community game.
24:29
I don't know if that fully answers your question.
24:30
Do you have a like, what about what do you think?
24:34
Do you have like moments where you've had to especially like as
24:38
an introvert, maybe like, how do you do that?
24:42
How do you not shut down community shut down after you go
24:45
home? There you.
24:46
Go, I mean just as a general like I think there are moments
24:56
and times where the answer is you need to leave, right?
24:59
Like, I personally have had that moment as leaving a church
25:03
community because it was not healthy or safe really for me to
25:09
stay there. But that's also A and that was
25:17
done with lots of prayer and lots of conversation and genuine
25:21
effort to try to make change where I could and discernment
25:27
and a sense of the spirit of no, it's, it is time for you to go,
25:37
Which was then affirmed by, you know, lots of relationships of
25:41
like, yeah, I wondered why you stayed so long.
25:43
Like, well, but like, the point is like, it's not like.
25:50
And you don't do that lightly, right?
25:54
Yes, sometimes the answer is yes, it's time to go.
26:01
But not just from a I'm I'm over, I'm out, right?
26:09
And then it also took time to like rebuild a healthy sense of
26:14
what does it mean to be in community and how can I fully
26:18
function as a member of the body in a new space?
26:24
Which of my keys took some counseling just just to plug for
26:27
counseling, which I'll probably do every time I'm on the
26:29
podcast. But yeah.
26:33
But also, I didn't give up on church or the concept of church
26:40
when I left that particular community.
26:43
And I was looking for, OK, well, where then could I find that
26:50
healthier experience of community where I can anchor in?
26:54
It wasn't OK cutting ties with community and I have nothing
26:59
else or no one else that I'm rooted to.
27:01
It was. Well then where can I anchor
27:04
instead? Yeah yeah, I the other thing I I
27:09
want to just acknowledge which I didn't feel like I had time to
27:12
like spell out fully on Sunday is a lot of times we as like
27:17
when we talk about community and even the language I used on
27:21
Sunday definitely would risk that S fellowship churches,
27:26
meaning several 100 people 3 to 500 people who tend to gather on
27:32
a semi regular basis on Sunday morning that that's your
27:35
community. There's different sizes of
27:39
community. So like yes, that's the local
27:43
expression of South that we've kind of united under some common
27:47
visions, some common worship, some common language about
27:51
trying to live in the way of Jesus with the heart of Jesus.
27:54
But more of what I'm talking about what I and I think that
27:59
even would be a little bit more typical to Paul's day is
28:02
slightly smaller subsets of that community.
28:07
So that means maybe more think of like a larger group of 20
28:14
people that you tend to connect with within that larger church
28:18
body or a life group of eight, six to eight people or that core
28:23
sort of folks. And then all throughout history,
28:27
studies have been done and research has been done around
28:31
human transformation. And they tend healthy followers
28:36
of Jesus tend to have these increasingly larger concentric
28:43
circles of relationships. If they're healthy, usually
28:47
there's a two to three who are like covenant friendships.
28:53
And then there's sometimes a, these aren't hard fast rules of
28:57
an 8 to 20 people who become part of that larger, like doing
29:02
life together. You kind of know what's going on
29:04
in their world and their life with their kids and their
29:07
struggles, that sort of thing. And then there's a maybe a
29:10
larger community that we might would call South.
29:14
And then the larger one that we don't even think about
29:17
oftentimes is the global Church of God around the world.
29:21
So when I say community, I'm tending to think of a little bit
29:25
more one of the smaller entities like that.
29:27
So just I didn't get a chance to say that on Sunday, but I think
29:33
it's important. It's not expected that you know
29:36
every single person's name at South Fellowship Church on a
29:39
Sunday morning. It's just not a possibility, and
29:42
you're not going to know if. You want to try to learn as many
29:45
as possible. Like great, go for it.
29:46
Yeah, go for it, Alex. Might, might know almost all of
29:49
you, but but you're not going to know every single deep pain and
29:56
sorrow that they have and all those sorts of things.
29:58
So to get back to your question around, yeah, how do you engage
30:06
when it's painful and stuff? I think I think the answer is
30:09
just acknowledge that my last point in the message was that
30:13
the struggle is a feature. It's not a bug.
30:17
So part of the struggle is what God wants for you.
30:21
It, and that's the premise of this whole series, is that
30:25
relinquishing certain freedoms is healthy for the human
30:28
condition. Now that has boundaries to it.
30:33
We just talked about some of them.
30:34
There are good reasons why you could leave a local church.
30:37
There are there are good reasons why you may might why a marriage
30:42
might not survive. And the scriptures have this
30:45
ability of retaining all of these tensions.
30:48
Yeah, there are some hills to die on.
30:50
Yep, absolutely and so. But like you said, to do it not
30:59
lightly and to recognize that some of the tension is by God's
31:05
design to shape you as a person in his image.
31:10
Without that struggle, without that tension, without
31:14
relinquishing some of your rights, you can't truly thrive
31:18
as a person. And back to your comment about
31:20
counseling. That's why a lot of like a, a
31:23
wise counselor might be what you need to go deeper in community,
31:29
in the larger community, right? And I don't, I know that's true
31:33
for me. There's been moments where I've
31:37
used all the things that I know how to do and I'm still running
31:40
into this roadblock in my own soul where I can't engage this
31:45
environment or this environment well anymore and I can't figure
31:49
out why. Sometimes a counselor is or a
31:53
wise mentor, older person or whatever it may be, might be the
31:57
person that needs to step into your life and say, help you deal
32:01
with some of your stuff so that you can enter in the community
32:04
again, wisely. So, yeah.
32:07
But it's not, there's no promise of it being easy, right?
32:11
I wish there was, but I think that that's actually part of the
32:15
point, so. So what's have you had any
32:20
experiences of community that you really feel like for you has
32:25
kind of been a guiding? I signpost, I guess, or a
32:32
guidepost of yeah, like there were moments where it felt like
32:36
this was what God meant community to be.
32:41
That's kind of helped you build this understanding of just the
32:44
value of it. Oh man, yes, I, I, I feel really
32:50
spoiled because a lot of my community is the staff.
32:55
That's not true for a lot of pastors, by the way, a lot of
32:59
church employees, for lack of a better term.
33:04
But I've had the gift of being pretty close friends with my
33:09
boss for the last two, you know, the the lead pastor, previously
33:13
pastor. And then with Alex, I think, I
33:17
don't know if you can tell from the show, but like he and I have
33:19
a good friendship and we like, we talk about life, we talk
33:22
about our kids, we talk about our fears, we talk about our
33:24
struggles. And so in a lot of ways, like I
33:26
think of Alex is one of my close friends that I feel I can be
33:31
vulnerable with. That's a weird gift.
33:35
And then I have other people on staff.
33:38
So but what it, what it's meant for me, there's been some some
33:43
significant moments over the last 1415 years here where I was
33:47
in crisis, whether it was burnout, whether it was
33:53
struggles at home, financial struggles, whatever they may be,
33:57
where some important people in my life here on staff kind of
34:01
held that knowledge fully. They knew what was going on and
34:06
they loved me anyway. They gave me freedoms to, to
34:10
take more time off. They gave me all those sorts of
34:13
things. So and that's where I felt a lot
34:15
of that community. I've also been a part of a few
34:18
different life groups, and different seasons of those
34:20
different groups have that same thing to offer, where they saw
34:24
all the dark corners of my soul. At least the ones that I
34:28
discovered to that point and knew about those things in me,
34:34
knew what it looked like when Aaron is grouchy and being a
34:37
jerk and accepted me anyway. That's probably one of the most
34:43
important parts of true community is to be who you
34:47
actually are without a mask, and still be embraced with
34:52
acceptance and love even if there's disagreement, all those
34:57
sorts of things. That's when suddenly a community
35:00
has this ability to feed your soul in ways you can't possibly
35:04
imagine. What about you?
35:06
Have you had little moments where you've experienced that?
35:09
Yeah, definitely. But I mean, just hearing what
35:12
you are sharing, it sounds like you were talking about, it's
35:15
going to be difficult. There's going to be, you know,
35:17
you have to hold things to tension, to stay in community,
35:21
to be anchored in community. You have to work through some of
35:23
those, some of those challenging things.
35:26
But for you, it sounded like those relationships are a big
35:30
part of what helped you work through those challenges and to
35:35
stay committed to community when those things got tough because
35:41
it wasn't just like this abstract value of yak new is
35:45
good. Yeah, I should, like keep
35:47
working on this or keep growing or whatever it was.
35:50
The relationships themselves that you had with the rest of
35:52
the body that helps you keep. Going yeah, absolutely.
35:58
And I think interestingly, like when probably the biggest gift
36:04
to A to a soul besides the love of God is when the love of God
36:11
is embodied in another human being.
36:13
So the love of God is unfathomable.
36:17
We we don't have any other comparison to it.
36:19
There is no human relationship that could compare to the UN,
36:26
the unconditional love that that Jesus shows.
36:30
I I've never encountered it and I don't think it you ever could
36:34
because it's that pure. And that's one of the reasons
36:38
why the gospel is so good. But as that gospel transforms
36:43
individuals lives and communities lives, that
36:48
community starts to get to experience embodied the the
36:52
embodied love of God. And I can't tell you how good it
36:58
is to be a mess and still be embraced with acceptance.
37:05
It doesn't make any sense. There's songs about that.
37:10
There's no categories in our brain.
37:12
It doesn't make sense why I could be actually me and people
37:15
would still like me. Because when I'm actually me,
37:18
it's not very pretty. And when I'm in my darkest, most
37:22
broken places, there's I feel you feel like you can conquer
37:27
the whole world. You feel like you can face any
37:30
challenge if you have both the love of God and at least some
37:36
some small group of people who see all of the broken and still
37:40
love you anyway. Yeah, that's a gift.
37:45
So yeah, there's a few things that I didn't get a chance to
37:54
talk about more at the series level.
37:56
I don't know if we want to dive into some of that, but I think
38:01
one of the things that I was fascinated about as I was
38:04
studying for the series and you're preaching in the series
38:07
too, so I don't. Know I am a couple weeks.
38:08
Yeah, I'm I'm super excited about that.
38:10
But what do you, I've noticed this shift and I it's not, I'm
38:16
not the first person to notice. There's this massive shift in
38:19
human history that takes place from more corporate thinking
38:24
societies to more individualistic thinking
38:27
societies. And they're still in the, in the
38:33
third world and a lot of more warm culture societies.
38:39
They still tend to think more corporately.
38:41
One example is Bob Andrews, one of our missionary partners that
38:45
we support here at South. On Sunday, someone told me they
38:49
went out to lunch with him and he said this sermon is
38:52
unnecessary in Africa, you know, so he serves there because they,
38:56
they just get it. Like they're like, well, duh,
38:59
obviously community. They don't know how to not think
39:03
that way. Whereas here you have to like
39:05
make a case for no, no, this is this is really worthwhile.
39:09
Exactly. And so a lot of the study I did
39:13
for the series was studying how humans have sort of the Western
39:18
world has shifted away from that corporate thought to more
39:22
individualistic thought waves of the Enlightenment, the
39:26
scientific revolution, the secular revolution, and then.
39:32
And so I think the reason I bring that up is I think it's
39:36
really important for all of us as we engage the series for the
39:40
weeks to come and each of our episodes that we'll have both
39:43
the red couch and in sermons that this we're entering into
39:47
foreign territory for an American mind especially or a
39:52
Western mind. So if there's tension there and
39:56
you're like, I don't know how to retain this, this feels so
40:00
foreign to me, especially in the area of community.
40:04
Just know. That's you can't buy hook, line
40:09
and sinker the individualistic tendencies that are in your own
40:13
brain. It's not a universal truth that
40:17
that we all get to just do whatever we want.
40:19
And that the American dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit
40:24
of happiness is not the gospel. The gospel is the gospel.
40:29
And there's a lot of good that's come out of the American dream
40:32
and the concept of liberty, which is how I started the
40:35
message on Sunday. But it is not a universal truth
40:39
that works everywhere in the world now.
40:41
And it's antithetical to a lot of what the New Testament
40:45
teaches, especially about human relationships and community.
40:49
So I wanted to acknowledge that out loud.
40:53
Again, I did a little bit of that on Sunday, but it's
40:57
important to to not be too skeptical of the New Testaments
41:03
ideas when they conflict with your American values.
41:07
So. Right.
41:08
And I mean, I think both studies, like scientific
41:12
research studies and just anecdotal evidence that we're
41:16
seeing more and more of this, oh, extreme individualism and
41:20
the isolation that we enter into when that is our mainframe of
41:27
reference. That's not ultimately that good
41:31
for us. Like there's more and more
41:33
emotional, mental health, social consequences that we're seeing
41:37
and can point to the evidence of what we're seeing is OK, at some
41:41
point there's there's a point where this turns like really
41:44
unhealthy and really negative. Yeah.
41:47
And as the rise of technologies increased in the Western world
41:51
especially, but it's globally, but social media and access to
41:58
information out. So you have the Internet was
42:03
this massive wave. There have been prior ones prior
42:07
to this, but the Internet is this massive wave of an
42:10
environment that an individual person can sit in solitude and
42:15
access the world visually. The ideas of the world consume
42:21
media that makes them feel like they're in like experiencing
42:25
things, things related to the world and then not actually be
42:29
in community. And as technology grows and AI
42:32
grows and there's better and better visual and all of these
42:36
sorts of things, it's going to be technology is going to
42:42
constantly threaten us and our well-being by giving us a false
42:51
sense of community that doesn't actually fit the real place of
42:56
human interaction. Right.
42:59
So there's this book that some of our community members went
43:01
through last year called The Angstest Generation that talks
43:04
extensively about the social media movement and how that's
43:09
affecting young kids and stuff and brain development.
43:12
And one of the biggest problems with social media is that it's
43:17
not actually social, right? And that there's all sorts of
43:23
studies about brain science related to like being able to
43:26
read people's body language and all the stuff that you just
43:30
can't get in social media. So this, and I think honestly, a
43:33
lot of the developers of social networks had good intentions to
43:36
try and connect humans and it and it's whiplashed and it makes
43:41
you think that you're connected without any of the actual
43:44
benefits of connection. And it's proving to be one of
43:50
the worst things for all sorts of reasons.
43:55
There's bullying online, there's the sense of seeing the best of
44:00
the best of other people's lives and then feeling like you're not
44:03
part of that. Depression's on the rise because
44:06
of it, even like intimate relationships between men and
44:10
women, like men can, men and women can have these like
44:14
fantasy relationships online in various different ways.
44:18
And they think that they have. It's filling this physiological
44:21
and mental and emotional need without actually the good and
44:25
the beautiful that comes from wrestling through a deep
44:28
intimate relationship with another person.
44:31
And so this challenge of truly being anchored in actual
44:37
physical relationships with other human beings, it's just
44:40
going to go up as technology improves.
44:46
So we have to fight to preserve it, anchor to it, say I refuse
44:50
to play the game and exit the human system and enter into this
44:55
virtual world system. If we don't anchor to that, it's
45:01
just not possible to thrive as human beings.
45:03
We were, we weren't designed for that.
45:05
So anything else, any other questions you had?
45:09
I don't think we had any questions come in.
45:12
I'll just double check. Oh yeah.
45:13
For future episodes, you can submit questions to What Red?
45:16
Catch theology.com. Yeah, Red catch theology.com is
45:20
the oh, is there a question it we got a question.
45:28
I didn't even see this. Submit your questions to
45:31
raycashtheology.com and maybe they will be seen before I
45:34
don't. Think we missed any yet, but
45:36
this is the first. OK, so let me look over this
45:48
here. So I use this illustration on
45:50
Sunday. Let me just sometimes I like to
45:52
not read the whole question 'cause they have anonymous
45:55
sections to them. But I use this illustration of
45:59
being in the same body of water on Sunday.
46:01
If we're all in the same body of water or pool, why can't
46:05
denominations of churches worked Better Together for God's glory?
46:10
Certain issues. I need to get this a little bit
46:13
closer to me so I can assure you certain issues are certainly in
46:17
the die bucket. But with the most important
46:21
issues of Jesus being our Savior and the way of truth and life,
46:25
why is there such division amongst the similar, similar
46:28
denominations Dig in because they should be.
46:33
There should be no divisions in the body.
46:35
So this is that's a reference to the passes that I preached from
46:38
the from that stance of leaving a church due to a lack of
46:41
leadership or poor discernment. This hits hard.
46:45
How do you show up in a community when you have
46:48
frustrations with members within that community?
46:52
So we address part of this. Like 2 questions there of hey,
46:57
if we're all supposed to be woman body of Christ, what's the
46:59
deal with the nominations? Why can't why can't the church
47:02
get its act together and have less division?
47:05
And what do you do in a specific local body when you are
47:11
frustrated with other members of that body?
47:15
Yeah, that's a great question. So I similar to maybe whoever's
47:22
writing this question. I don't know, I have to we don't
47:26
we don't see who writes them in by default.
47:29
I could look it up. I theoretically, but whoever's
47:31
writing this question, I was super frustrated with this
47:34
reality that there's this all this fracture that take that
47:37
took place in the church, a lot of it driven by the the
47:41
Reformation and and that sort of giving the scriptures in the
47:46
hands of the average person and they start to be able to
47:49
interpret themselves. And then they say, well, wait a
47:51
minute, I don't agree with my pastor and then they whatever.
47:53
So. And some of those various shifts
47:56
of community to individual that born out on community levels of
48:01
or group levels of, OK, well then we're going to split off
48:05
and form this denomination or that denomination because we
48:08
don't have to stick with it over totally.
48:12
Reasons. So more legitimate than others?
48:14
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
48:16
And I that still frustrate, frustrates me to to some extent,
48:21
but I'm actually a little bit more comforted in my church
48:25
history class recently. The term denominations actually
48:32
comes from a specific season where there was, I think it's
48:35
the the 16 year war. But there's some theological
48:40
debates over communion, some nuanced details around does the
48:45
body and blood actually turn into the body and blood of Jesus
48:48
or not and all this stuff. And those debates were so heated
48:53
that there's literally a war where Christians are killing
48:57
other claim to be Christians over a theological debate.
49:02
Now that doesn't make any sense to what most of us today, right?
49:08
But. And like, probably shouldn't
49:11
have been the outcome of that debate just regardless.
49:14
Yeah, it shouldn't. It shouldn't be.
49:15
Now you, if you, in order to sort of put yourself in their
49:18
shoes, you'd have to study a little bit of what's going on
49:22
when in, in, at the time in church history, I think if we
49:26
were living in that day, we would probably be participating
49:29
in some of the same stuff. Because when if you think that
49:33
your eternal safety, your eternal salvation is contingent
49:39
upon whether you get this theological thing right or not,
49:44
your motivation to get it right goes so high that you're willing
49:48
to go to war for it. It's your eternal state, right?
49:51
So any that's what's going on. And eventually there was like a
49:56
little bit of a ceasefire and they came together for a council
50:00
and the of the two parties and they decide to separate without
50:06
killing each other. This is the first, not the
50:09
first, but this is where the term denomination came into
50:14
being, where they said, why don't is there a way for us to
50:19
agree to disagree without murdering each other?
50:23
And that's actually the beginning of denominationalism.
50:25
It didn't agreed. Let's let's find ways to
50:29
disagree theologically really strongly without murdering our
50:35
opponent, right? That's so now we've come a long
50:38
way from that place. Now we just write blog posts.
50:43
And yeah, write blog posts. All this is so.
50:45
Make Twitter comments. That doesn't mean it's ideal.
50:48
We want the body of Christ to be unified globally, that that's
50:52
where Jesus is going to take us long term.
50:56
But there human brokenness is such that there are some issues
51:04
that are so big and so painful and so strongly held that those
51:11
parties who are on either side of these lines, it's actually
51:14
more detrimental to the well-being of the whole for them
51:19
to spend time together. So there is some justification
51:22
for some separation across some lines.
51:24
And the biggest problem is we can't agree on which lines are
51:28
worth separating over versus others, right?
51:31
Yeah. And South has what what we call
51:34
our hills to die on. And there are fewer hills maybe
51:38
in a community like South than in some other communities.
51:44
But that's the source of denominationalism.
51:47
It's comes out of human beings are broken and we can't get
51:52
along. And it's better to not murder
51:55
each other than to spend time together.
51:59
Now this is also the reason why Jesus says like this is kind of
52:03
the same way Jesus talks about divorce.
52:06
Because not like that it's a good thing, but it's because of.
52:10
Yeah, he says. Heartbrokenness.
52:11
This is not how it was meant to be.
52:13
That's what Jesus says about divorce.
52:14
Yeah, I do not like this ever. But because of your hardness of
52:20
heart, because of human brokenness, there are some ways
52:24
where there where it's like not damnable, for lack of a better
52:29
term, to separate a marriage for the sake of the safety of one or
52:35
both, for the sake of the thriving of a family.
52:38
There are some reasons why a divorce is actually better for
52:43
all parties involved. Same thing with denominations.
52:45
And I don't, I it stinks and let's fight against it when we
52:50
can. If we can find common ground,
52:52
great. Because it's going to be the end
52:54
game. There's no divorce and marriage.
52:57
There's no separation of God's global church in the, in the, in
53:00
the new heavens and new new earth.
53:02
So we might as well start figuring it out now.
53:04
But there are going to be times because of our weakness and our
53:09
hardness of heart and our brokenness, that has to happen.
53:11
So that's the first question. That's a long answer.
53:14
Any other thoughts on that part for you?
53:18
No, I mean, I'll just say like, again, that's not that's not to
53:21
say we just accept it and just shrug our shoulders.
53:25
And like, I think of one of our ministry partners, Love, Inc.
53:29
They work with dozens of churches in the Littleton area
53:32
across denominations and regularly bring people from
53:36
those churches together in one space or to work on a project or
53:40
to help a family or those kind of things.
53:42
And when denominations do come together, when the church whole
53:45
comes together across those lines, it's beautiful.
53:49
Absolutely. And it's a consistent reminder
53:52
of there are some spaces where those lines are being crossed
53:57
and those devised are being bridged.
54:00
And it's a shame that that doesn't happen more often.
54:03
Absolutely. Yep.
54:08
It's, it's not ideal. It's just kind of how it is.
54:11
There's so much in the scriptures that that talk about
54:13
that, that this is not what it's supposed to be like.
54:18
And because of our brokenness, it is so like, let's fight
54:21
against the brokenness, fight against the disunity, but at the
54:24
same time, it's just how it currently is in a fallen world.
54:30
And I guess on an individual level, for those things that you
54:35
see them and you have that reaction of this is not how that
54:39
should be. This is not how God called the
54:42
church to be. This is not how God called a
54:45
community to be That I think can also raise the question of So
54:53
what are you going to do about it, right?
54:56
And like depending on the situation, it might not just
55:00
depend on you fully to resolve the situation.
55:05
You can't necessarily make people respond in super healthy
55:09
ways, right? But to the extent where you are
55:16
called to do something, whether that's like get involved in
55:21
figuring out how your community can bridge some of those divides
55:24
or denomination, whether that's how do you broker peace and be a
55:33
peacemaker, Not necessarily peacekeeper, but a peacemaker in
55:37
your community. Where do you need to maybe go
55:41
have a conversation with someone or ask for forgiveness?
55:45
That will help restore how that community should be.
55:50
What are you going to do? What is God calling you to do in
55:53
that situation? And sometimes maybe it's just
55:55
pray, depending again on what the situation is and who else is
55:59
involved. But the answer is not usually
56:03
just like that sucks and that's it.
56:09
Yep, yeah, good luck with that. If you if you figure out the
56:13
perfect formula, I'm sure we would love to know.
56:15
But it yeah, it's a complicated thing to deal with.
56:20
And again, I think the scriptures that's that's one of
56:23
the reasons why I love this the Bible is that I think the Bible
56:26
deals with these complicated issues with such honesty,
56:30
acknowledges the ideal and the brokenness at the same time.
56:35
And that's why I think it's so true.
56:38
One of the reasons why I think the scriptures are so powerful
56:40
and so true is that it it's able to hold see both of those
56:43
realities simultaneously. To get to the second part of the
56:46
question, I think we partially answered it already in the way
56:49
that I addressed the first thing.
56:51
But when, when should you break community?
56:55
I do not know for you, that's a pretty difficult question to
57:00
answer. And I, I think what Jessica said
57:06
earlier about like her experience or what I was talking
57:09
about earlier, it's got to be done with some fear and
57:12
trepidation. Lots of prayer, lots of
57:15
consideration. I'll just tell one story to sort
57:20
of get at it. When I first started at South,
57:25
you know, I'm the worship pastor and that was all I was doing at
57:28
the time. But I used to, you know, you get
57:32
complaints about you're doing too many old hymns or not enough
57:36
old hymns or like the music's too loud, the music's too soft.
57:40
Like this is the kind of thing like all all these impossible to
57:43
please situations. Now, I tended to hear a little
57:48
bit more complaints from some of our older members than I did
57:52
from younger folks. And at first I was like, why
57:56
can't the older generation stop complaining about this stuff
58:02
again? I'm really young.
58:03
Just hang with me. I feel the judgement coming
58:07
through the screen. And I was at first, in the first
58:12
year or so, I was like, I just hear mostly complaints from the
58:15
solar generation. I'm trying to be faithful to
58:17
Jesus. I'm trying to lead my teams
58:19
well, select songs that serve the church, and I'm just hearing
58:23
complaints. But then I started to notice
58:26
some of the younger folks who weren't complaining disappearing
58:31
without saying a word. And then I had some
58:35
conversations with some mentors and I started to realize that
58:42
some of the older folks who were staying and complaining were
58:47
doing community better than the silent departors.
58:51
And my, my affection for that generation and, and that model
58:56
of being in community grew so much because of that.
59:01
And I started to realize there's there.
59:03
They might complain because they love this place and they want it
59:08
to thrive and they want it to be the best it can be, but they're
59:11
staying. Even if I don't change something
59:14
for their preference. That's beautiful.
59:18
And my respect for the person who just never says a word and
59:22
just silently slips out the back door because they didn't like
59:25
the song selection that week went way down.
59:29
So that's we have to wrestle with like if we're going to be
59:36
in community and we don't like what's going on.
59:39
And we've never said a thing about it or engaged it or had a
59:42
conversation with the lead pastor or the elder board or
59:45
whatever. And we've never engaged it at
59:47
all. And we just said, it just feels
59:49
a little icky to me right now. It's not doing it for me
59:51
anymore. Then your commitment to that
59:53
community is not strong enough. That doesn't mean that there
59:59
aren't justifications for it. But if you go through the
1:00:01
process of saying I'm invested here, I love this place, I want
1:00:05
it to thrive, and I'm frustrated with how certain things are
1:00:07
happening. So I'm going to have the
1:00:09
conversations I'm going to with love as best as I can complain.
1:00:15
About how things are and trying to make a new future for my
1:00:18
church family and it's it's met with arrogance or bullheadedness
1:00:22
from leadership or whatever it may be.
1:00:25
You may decide that there's a reason why and it becomes toxic
1:00:30
or you become villainized or whatever it may be.
1:00:32
You may decide, OK, I is in the presence of God.
1:00:36
I've done everything I can to be at peace in my community and to
1:00:41
make this community to bring my gifts to it, and it's still not
1:00:44
working. Then maybe the only option is
1:00:47
for you to find a place that hears your voice, that lets you
1:00:50
be part of the body again. I don't know if that answers the
1:00:54
question, but again, good luck with that.
1:00:59
Any other thoughts? I mean, yeah, I think it's,
1:01:04
again, not knowing, like, individual details of a
1:01:11
situation, right? Yeah.
1:01:14
Try, try to try to change, try to have conversations.
1:01:20
And in the end, the answer might be like, there's not a fix.
1:01:25
You can't bring something to health.
1:01:29
But without trying, you're never going to know if things could
1:01:35
have been changed for the better in a way that reflects and
1:01:38
honors Jesus. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
1:01:43
So I guess by way of concluding, related to this topic and just
1:01:47
to wrap up the show for today, if that's you and you feel like
1:01:51
you need to move on or you're coming to South and grieving the
1:01:55
fact that, you know, you heard a message.
1:01:57
I actually talked to one person on Sunday who's like, I just
1:02:00
left the church and I came here and I'm finding some life.
1:02:03
But now I have this grief that did I try enough and all that
1:02:06
stuff. So the invitation for this text
1:02:11
and for I'm hoping for this episode in the sermon is that
1:02:16
you need to be in community. So whether you had to leave or
1:02:22
whatever it's this isn't about shame or whatever.
1:02:24
I just know keep trying. Find a place inside of the body
1:02:29
of Christ where you're known, you're valued, you're loved,
1:02:33
even if it's hard and complicated and keep.
1:02:36
And if if you can't find it here, find it somewhere.
1:02:40
The one big, the big risk to your soul is if you just tap out
1:02:44
and say I'm no longer trying to be part of the body of Christ.
1:02:48
That is a recipe to to stagnate your faith and stagnate thriving
1:02:53
ultimately. And if you're looking for a way
1:02:56
to get connected in the body of South, you can reach out to
1:02:58
myself or Angela Dunn because that's our job and we would love
1:03:03
to help you find what some of those pathways and options might
1:03:07
be. Yeah.
1:03:08
And this fall we're going to be offering some midweek class
1:03:12
options and some like sort of mid size groups that'll allow us
1:03:17
to experiment, put our toes in, dip our toes in the water of
1:03:20
community and what that looks like in some shorter cycle
1:03:23
classes that may be where you meet some of the people you'll
1:03:27
go deeper with longer term. So you can be looking out for
1:03:31
that circles in the summer as a great way to sort of like just
1:03:35
try a little bit or do something, join us, serve,
1:03:39
group, whatever. All these sorts of environments
1:03:41
are places where you can take a baby step in the right direction
1:03:45
of entering into community. So we love you all.
1:03:48
Thanks for tuning in and thanks for joining me Jessica today.
1:03:51
Thanks for having me. Hopefully I didn't ramble you
1:03:54
guys ears off too much. I'm not used to being the one
1:03:56
that talks the whole time. So yeah.
1:03:59
And now I have to find the stop button every single week.
1:04:02
Don't have the stop button ready and I talk talk talk till I can
1:04:07
find it. Bye everyone.
1:04:11
Thanks.