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Hell and Gone Murder Line: Ramona Gregory · Hell and Gone: Murder Line

• 0:46
  Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Late in the afternoon on March twentieth, nineteen ninety, a
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: man named JM. Jim Hannigan was checking property lines and
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: fences near the Clayton Expressway in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Jim
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: was the caretaker for land that belonged to a local family,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: the Carneyes. He later told police his job was to
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: regularly check the fences and property lines and that the
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: gate to the property was always padlocked. According to an
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: incident report, that afternoon, Jim was checking the south side
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: of Clayton Expressway near Williams Lane when he saw something
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: in the distance. At first he thought it might be
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: a dead animal, but when he got closer, he realized
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it was not an animal. It was a body. I'm
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Catherine Townsend. Over the past eight years of making my
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned that there's no
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: such thing as a small town where murder never happens.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: I have received hundreds of messages from people all around
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  Speaker 2: the country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: affected them, their families, and their communities. If you have
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: a case, she'd let me and my team to look into.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: You can reach out to us at our Helen Gone
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six five.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: or you can send us a message on Instagram at
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Helen Gonepod. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. The victim
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: was nude, her remains were partially decomposed. She was lying
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: face down in an area of tall grass, weeds and briars.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: The body was inside the fence line off a fire break.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: The area around the body had been disturbed and parts
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: of the body had been consumed by animals. Jim Hannigan
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: called the police at four twenty three pm. The Fort
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Smith Police Department got that call that there was a
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: nude body lying off the north side of Clayton Expressway,
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: south of the Williams Lane intersection. Jim later told police
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: that he had the only key. Just a note here.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Nothing that we've read indicates that police believed that Jim
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: was involved with Ramona's death in any way. Officer Chuck
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Warr responded he met Jim out on the expressway and
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Jim led him to the Padlock gate. From there, they
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: went down the inside of the fence along the firebreak.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: That was where Officer war saw the body. He immediately
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: contacted Captain Ralph Wood, and pretty soon the entire Major
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Crimes unit was on the scene. At that point, police
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: did not know who the victim was, but they could
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: see that the body appeared to be female, that the
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: victim had blonde hair, and that her finger nails were
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: painted red. On her left wrist, she wore a gold
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: chain bracelet. Investigator's searched the area around her body. They
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: found three separate locations where blonde hair was wadded up
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: on the ground, all within about six feet of the body.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: They also found an old, weathered key near Clayton Expressway.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Now it's not explained in the report what this key
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: went to or whether it could have been one that
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: fit that lock. I'm guessing not since it's not mentioned
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: in the report, but it's an odd coincidence that Jim
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: said he had the only key and another key was
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: found near the body. The coroner, Reverend Parrish, was notified.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: He came to the scene and immediately pronounced the victim debt.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Police contacted the Medical Examiner's office in Little Rock, and
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: someone from the medical Examiner's office was sent to take
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: possession of the body and the physical evidence. Because it
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: was getting dark fast, police left the scene. They came
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: back the next day to do a more detailed search.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: They took additional photographs, made a crime scene sketch, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: used a metal detector to look for projectiles like bullets
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: or shell casings. They didn't find any, but the medical
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: examiner later pulled a bullet out of the victim's skull.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: The me was able to determine that the victim was
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: female and that she had been shot in the head
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: with a twenty five caliber pistol. The bullet was fully intact,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: good enough for comparison to find possible murder weapons. So
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: now police knew how she had died. The question was
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  Speaker 2: who was she and why was she out in that field.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Police started notifying multiple agencies, including the Van Buren Police
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Department in the Crawford County Sheriff's Office US. Both of
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: those agencies had recent missing persons reports that generally match
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: the body. Detectives obtained files and dental records for two
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: missing women last names listed on the reports as Belle
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: and Hassler, so that they could be forwarded to the
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  Speaker 2: medical examiner. The medical examiner later told investigators that the
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: body was not the missing Hassler woman from Crawford County,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: and now police had a better and more complete description
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: of the victim. She was a white female around five
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: foot six, about one hundred and thirty pounds, with blonde
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: hair and good teeth. The police got a call from
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: the family of a sixteen year old named Ramona Gregory,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: who had been missing for weeks. Ramona was from Rowland, Oklahoma,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: just across the state line from Fort Smith. She was
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: a ninth grade student at Darby Junior High School. She
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: lived with her parents, Brenda and Raymond Gregory and her sisters,
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  Speaker 2: Bridget and Cassie Langley. Her family had reported her missing
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: on February fourth, nineteen ninety, and by the time she
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: was found, decomposition and animal activity had already taken away
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of evidence that might have told police what
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: happened during her final hours. On March twenty second, nineteen ninety,
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  Speaker 2: after getting info from the Gregory family, the Medical Examiner's
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Office officially identified the body. They matched fingerprints from the
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: body to a fingerprint card on file for Ramona Gregory.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Ramona had apparently been arrested before, and the Fort Smith
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Police Department's Juvenile Division had photographs, finger prints, and a
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: file on her, so the decomposed body found off Clayton
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Expressway was confirmed to be Ramona Gregory. Once investigators had
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: her name, they started trying to reconstruct where she had been,
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: who she had been with, and what happened to her
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: between the day she disappeared and the day when Jim
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Hannigan found her body behind that lock gate near a
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: fire break. But this wasn't easy because Ramona moved around
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: a lot at that time. Detectives said she was known
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: to be a runaway. She would stay in different places
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: around Roland and Fort Smith. They were able to identify
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: several hangouts where she went regularly. The main one was
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Grand Avenue, where she would cruise around and spend time
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: with friends. Ramona had friends and relatives all around, including
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: her sister Cassie in our Coma, Oklahoma, and friends in
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  Speaker 2: Van Buren and an area north of US Highway sixty
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  Speaker 2: four between Roland and Muldro. Detective J. C. Ryder was
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: in charge of the case. He told The Times Record
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: that Ramona's only transportation was walking and hitchhiking, and she
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: did a lot of walking around. He said it was
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: not uncommon for her to walk from Roland to Fort
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Smith and back again. So if Ramona was walking and
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: hitchhiking between Roland, our Coma, Van Buren and Fort Smith,
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  Speaker 2: that may her extremely vulnerable. She was sixteen years old,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: and if she was walking around and hitching a lot,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: especially late at night, that would seem to drastically increase
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: the murder suspect pool. In June of nineteen ninety, the
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Times Record reported the detectives were asking for the public's help.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: They wanted to fill in the blanks in Ramona's timeline
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: and figure out where she was on the day she disappeared.
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  Speaker 2: Detective j. C Ryder told the newspaper, quote, I'm asking
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  Speaker 2: people who remember the girl and last time they saw her,
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  Speaker 2: and possibly who she was with. End quote. They wanted
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  Speaker 2: to know who had been with Ramona, what she was doing,
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  Speaker 2: and what was going on with her life. They wanted
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  Speaker 2: to look for any possible motive for murder. Police spoke
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  Speaker 2: with Ramona's mother, Brenda Gregory and her sister, Cassie Gregory.
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  Speaker 2: They both told investigators Ramona had left home in the
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: past for a day or two, but they said they
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  Speaker 2: reported Ramona missing on February fourth because they said she
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: had been gone for weeks aga that point, and they
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: said she had never been gone for that long before.
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  Speaker 2: At the time, Cassie was living at the Westwood Apartments
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  Speaker 2: in our Coma, Oklahoma, with her boyfriend, Rodley Michaelmore, her
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: two children, and Ramona. Cassie told police Ramona came in
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  Speaker 2: on what she believed was the Thursday night. Ramona said
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: she was going to roll in, Oklahoma to her aunt's house,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: which was somewhere that she often stayed over. She said
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: that she wanted to get some clothes eat and shower.
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  Speaker 2: Then she said she was going to Fort Smith on
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Friday to go out on Grand Avenue. After Ramona failed
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: to come home or contact her, Cassie later talked to
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  Speaker 2: their aunt, Susan McGuire, who lived at the Shady Lane
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  Speaker 2: apartments in Roland, and Susan told Cassie Ramona had come
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  Speaker 2: to her house like she had told Cassie and Brenda
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  Speaker 2: she was going to. Susan said Ramona showered and ate
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  Speaker 2: and got dressed to go out. Then Ramona left for
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  Speaker 2: Grand Avenue on foot. After that, no one in her
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  Speaker 2: family heard from her again. That is the last clear
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: family timeline. The last time Ramona was seen was when
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: she was leaving her aunt's apartment in Roland, walking toward
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Grand Avenue in Fort Smith. After that she disappeared. But
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: it turned out there were other things that had happened
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: to Ramona in the days before she went missing, including
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: a claim that someone had tried to rape her. Cassie
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: told police that on Monday or Tuesday night, so a
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: couple of days before the last time they saw her,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Ramona had come in upset. Ramona said she had been
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: approached by a man driving a pickup truck. According to Cassie,
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  Speaker 2: Ramona told her the man offered Ramona a ride and
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  Speaker 2: some crank, then he tried to force himself sexually on her.
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  Speaker 2: Ramona said she got away. She described the man as
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: white with short brown hair and a brown mustache, so
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: police had a description of a possible suspect, but Ramona
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: was also reporting troubling encounters in her personal life. Brenda
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: and Cassie also told police Ramona was dating someone. This
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: guy's name is redacted in the case file. They said
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Ramona and this boyfriend had often gone to another person's
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: house in our coma. The person's name is also redacted
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: in parts of this file, but the redactions make clear
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: this person they're talking about is Ramona's boyfriend's father. Ramona
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: had told Brenda and Cassie that her boyfriend's dad paid
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: her to do housework, and she also said that he
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: made sexual advances toward her. According to Brenda and Cassie,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: at one point, Ramona's boyfriend was in jail, and after
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: he got out, he started coming by their house, asking
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: if they knew where Ramona was or if they had
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: heard from her. They said he had been checking on
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Ramona's whereabouts. Police also interviewed Ramona's boyfriend. Ramona's boyfriend said
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Ramona had met an older man who from the redactions
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: it seems like he means his dad at a Halloween
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: party at the Crossroads Club. Ramona's boyfriend told police. During
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: the time he and Romona were dating, he was in
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and out of jail, and he was very open about
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: his father and the fact that his dad allegedly made
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: unwanted advances toward Romona. The boyfriend said his father would
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: pick him and Romona up and take them to his
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: house in Arcoma, where the boyfriend said his dad paid
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: them to do work around the house. The boyfriend worked
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: on cars, Ramona would do housework. The boyfriend confirmed what
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Cassie told police. He told detectives that Ramona had complained
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: that his father would pinch her, slap her on the butt,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: and make sexual advances toward her. Then, he described a
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: phone call. He said that while he was in jail,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: he made a collect call to his father's house because
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: he wanted to talk to Ramona. Ramona got on the
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: phone and told him she was having trouble with his dad.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: She said he was keeping her drunk all the time
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: and making sexual advances toward her. According to the boyfriend,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Ramona said his father had gotten her drunk, thrown her
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: on a bed, and tried to rape her. She said
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: she was leaving after that. The boyfriend said he never
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: heard from Romona again. When the boyfriend got out of jail,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: he went to confront his father about these alleged sexual
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: advances toward his girlfriend. He told police, when he got
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: to his dad's house, he saw at least six twenty
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: five caliber handguns there. Ramona had been shot in the
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: head with a twenty five caliber pistol. The boyfriend said
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: he knew that those guns were stolen, and he was
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: angry with his father, so he called the police to
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: report his dad for the stolen guns. Detectives contacted Detective
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Bill Hollahan of the Fort Smith Police Department's Criminal Investigation Division.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: So Detective Hallahan had recently worked a series of burglaries
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: involving stolen guns from a Fort Smith flea market. Some
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: of those guns had been discovered at a residence in
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: ar Coma, where one of Ramona's acquaintances had been living.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: One of the guns, a twenty five caliber Sema automatic
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Raven pistol had been returned to its owner, but police
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: went back to trace that gun. They got it back
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: from its owner, believing that it could be a possible
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: piece of evidence in Ramona's murder. Police also tracked down
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: another semi automatic pistol that had been recovered in a
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Texas arrest involving one of the burglary suspects. Both guns
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: were tested and both were eliminated as possible murder weapons.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So police had some disturbing pieces of information. They knew
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: that Ramona had had at least one scary encounter with
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: a man who threatened her, and she was dealing with
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: her boyfriend's father, who, she claimed to multiple people gave
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: her alcohol in drugs and subjected her to alleged attempted
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: sexual assaults. And they had had the twenty five caliber
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: bullet that was in good enough condition to compare, but
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: they didn't have anything more concrete and the guns weren't
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: a match. And then the police found another major piece
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: of evidence, not at the crime scene, but in an
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: area around Harriet Lane near a railroad. Two men, Mike
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Walker and Fredman Schell, who were both employees of the
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Arkansas and Missouri Railroad mainline were cutting right away for
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: the railroad line. Right of way is the strip of land,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: usually a couple of one hundred feet around the tracks
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: that are owned by the railroad, the part where the
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: power lines go through. Near the tracks off Harriet Lane,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: the two men saw clothing a sweater, jeans, underwear, a bra,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: and boots. Later, they met with two detectives, Detective Scott
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: and Detective Champion. They showed them where the clothing was.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: They said they had found the clothing on March thirteenth.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: It wastographed and bag for testing. When the detectives showed
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: the clothing to Brenda and Cassie, Ramona's mother and sister,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: the women said that the sweater was Ramona's and that
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: the boots looked like a pair of Ramona often wore
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: boots she had borrowed from a girlfriend. They said the
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: genes also looked like Ramona's. Cassie said that the underwear
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: was hers, she had loaned it to Ramona. Cassie also
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: said Ramona had a gold plated chain bracelet. There was
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: a bracelet like that on the body, but because of
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: the graphic nature of the crime scene photos, detectives did
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: not show that photo to Ramona's family. They also showed
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: the clothing to Ramona's boyfriend. He also confirmed it was hers.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: The clothing evidence creates another question. If Ramona's body was
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: found off Clayton Expressway, why were her clothes found near
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: the railroad tracks off Harriet Lane, which was about half
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: a mile away. Were they dumb there by the killer?
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Did Ramona leave them there before she died? Did something
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: happen to her there and then later she was moved.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: The clothing was submitted to rology for analysis, but from
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: the pieces of Ramona's case file that we have, we
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: can't tell whether that testing ever led to any determinations.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Detectives were trying to build a map of Ramona's final
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: days from the memories of people who knew her casually,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: people who saw her walking or saw her get into cars,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: or people who saw her at the clubs or in
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: cruising spots. But Ramona was also a teenage runaway, and
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: that label unfortunately affected how the case was understood. In
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: December of nineteen ninety one, the Times Record interviewed a
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Crawford County Juvenile probation officer name Leanne Cluck about the
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: number of runaways around the holidays. Cluck said that as
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: of December first, nineteen ninety one, Fort Smith, Arkansas, had
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty five runaways. Now, most of those
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: teenagers would eventually make it home safely. Ramona Gregory was
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: one of the ones who did not, and around this
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: time there were several reports of runaways who were murdered
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: in Fort Smith. This included Estella Martin, a fourteen year
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: old from Van Buren, who was also a runaway. Anne
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: was murdered. Kluck talked about how parents were sometimes reluctant
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: to admit that their children were runaways because they were embarrassed.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: They worried that people would judge them or assume that
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: they were bad parents. But she stressed this was not
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: the right way to look at things, and that the
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: most important thing was that missing children were reported immediately,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: because even if a child left home voluntarily, something could
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: happen to them very quickly, something that was not voluntary.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: This is exactly the danger at the center of Ramona's case.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: She lived her life on her own terms, staying with
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: different people and moving around, but at some point something
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: happened to her that she did not choose. Someone shot
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: her in the head stripped her and left her body
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: in a field, and over thirty years later, her killer
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: has still not been found. There is not a lot
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: of information out there about this case. After the initial
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: flurry of information, the story kind of died out. But
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: after a FOY request, we were able to get Ramona's
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: case file back, and in my opinion, the case file
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: suggests investigators had a lot more to work with than
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: the public may have known. There was the man in
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: the pickup truck who allegedly tried to assault Ramona days
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: before she disappeared. There was the older man in our coma,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: her boyfriend's dad, who allegedly gave Ramona alcohol, made sexual advances,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: and tried to rape her. Police did question Ramona's boyfriend's father,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: and he took a lot of detector test At first,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: he told them that the last time he saw Ramona
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: was outside her sister, Cassie's apartment. He said he drove
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: her to his house where she cleaned and then left
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: without incident. He said that any claims that Ramona may
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: have made about sexual advances were absolutely false. Police said
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: they believed that his responses indicated deception, and then he
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: changed his story. This time he said that he had
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: had a sexual encounter with Ramona, but that it was consensual.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: He told police that while Ramona was cleaning his house,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: she walked into the bathroom, took off her bra, and
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: then came up to him while he was sitting in
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: a recliner. Then, he said he kissed her and fondled
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: her breast. He claimed that Ramona said, I'm feeling like
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: a slut because he was too old for her, and
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: that she said, this makes me feel cheap and it's wrong.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: After that, the boyfriend's dad claimed he told Ramona to
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: put her bra back on and he drove her home.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: He continued to insist to police that he never had
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: sex with her or forced her into anything. The boyfriend's
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: father was interrogated two other times and took two more
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: light detector tests concerning Ramona's murder, and according to police reports,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: both times, the results indicated deception. In my opinion, his
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: accounts of what Ramona said contradict everything that she told
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: multiple witnesses about her encounters with this man, and yet
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: he was never arrested or charged. Ramona's murder did not
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: happen in a vacuum in the years before and after
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: her disappearance, the Fort Smith area had plenty of other
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: unsolved murders of young women and girls that left the
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: community with more questions than answers. In the nineteen eighties
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: and early nineteen nineties, there were other unsolved murders of
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: young women and girls in the same city where Ramona's
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: body was found. One of those cases was less Hogg.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: There is not much information about her case out there
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: except that she was a quote runaway who was later
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: found dead. Here's what we know. On November first, nineteen
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: eighty five, Leslie went for a walk to the Bailey
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Hill Reservoir. Her body was later found with an open
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: six pack of beer next to her. She had been
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: strangled with shoelaces from her own shoes. Decades later, police
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: have said they still consider Leslie's case active. Some investigators
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: have wondered whether there could have been a serial killer
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: in Fort Smith during that time period. I want to
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: just stress there's no indication that Leslie's and Ramona's case
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: are connected. I'm bringing it up to emphasize that there
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: were very young runaways disappearing during that time in Arkansas
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and not really making local or national news. Chris Boyd
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Senior and J. C Ryder, who also worked on Ramona's case,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: were detectives with the Major Crimes Unit at the Fort
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Smith Police Department when Leslie went missing. They were assigned
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: to Leslie's case in the late eighties, when it was
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: one of the first major cases for that unit. Chris
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Boyd later said, back in nineteen eighty five, police didn't
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: have the forensic capabilities they have today. Back then, the
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: best investigators could usually hope for was fingerprints or eyewitnesses. J.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: C Ryder later described Leslie's case as sad, as he
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: said cases like that always are. A lot of people
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: have the same feelings about Ramona Gregory's case. Ramona's case
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: is from nineteen ninety, right on the edge of when
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: investigators relied almost solely on old school detective work and
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: the beginning of modern forensic testing, and they were trying
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: to solve the murder of a teenager whose final movements
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: were difficult to pin down because she was moving between places,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: relying on walking and hitchhiking, and spending time with people
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: who were sometimes involved in drugs, stolen property, and guns.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: This does not make Ramona responsible for what happened to her,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: but it does make her vulnerable and it makes the
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: investigation harder. Years after Ramona's death, the case resurfaced through
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: something that looked unrelated, a burglary investigation involving stolen property
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: from salisaf Ford. By nineteen ninety two, detectives were looking
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: at people connected to that burglary. It involved stolen property
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: and tools, possibly including a lawnmower, which appeared on the news.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: As detectives interviewed people connected to the stolen property trail,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: they were pulled back toward Ramona Gregory's murder. That burglary
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: investigation led them into a circle of men who either
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: knew suspects or had heard talk about Romona's case. One
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: of those men was Rodney Sirett. According to police records,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Rodney told officers that he had been in the same
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Crawford County jail cell as a man named Kenneth Dennis.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Rodney told police that he had information about Ramona's death.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Rodney claim Kenneth said someone had shot a girl. According
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: to the records, Kenneth said that Ramona was killed because
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: of jealousy involving someone's son, specifically because Ramona was going
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: to marry someone's son. That is a major statement if true,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: jealousy involving someone's son could point back toward the relationship dynamics.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Investigators had already heard about between Ramona's boyfriend, the boyfriend's father,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: and the father's alleged sexual interest in Ramona. But jailhouse
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: information is always complicated. People in jail may hear things.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: They also may exaggerate or trade information they believe will
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: get them a better deal. According to the investigative notes,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: police interviewed Kenneth Dennis. The file says Dennis talked about
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: stolen guns and people who could sell them. But from
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: the notes we have, that lead did not result in
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: an arrest. It just added another layer to the same
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: unresolved question who killed Ramona Gregory. There are several possible directions.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: In the one direction is the stranger dangerly the man
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: in the pickup truck that tried to sexually assault her.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: She escaped that time, but it's possible if that man
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: saw her again, or if he was connected to where
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: she was walking or hitchhiking, he could be important. The
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: problem is that the description is broad. Ramona described him
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: as a white male with short brown hair, a brown
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: mustache and a pickup truck in that area of Arkansas
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety that could describe a lot of men.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Another direction is the older man in our coma, her
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: boyfriend's father. Ramona allegedly told multiple people her boyfriend's father
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: made sexual advances toward her. The boyfriend told police Ramona
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: said his dad had kept her drunk and tried to
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: rape her, and the boyfriend said he saw multiple twenty
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: five caliber guns at his father's house, But the known
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: twenty five caliber guns that the police recovered and tested
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: were eliminated. Now that does not mean that the man
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: was cleared. It means the specific guns police tested did
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: not fire the bullet recovered from Romona's skull. If there
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: were multiple guns, or if another gun was never recovered,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: that question is still open. A third direction is the
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: stolen gun and burglary circle. Ramona and the people around
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: her appear to have been connected, either directly or indirectly
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: to people buying and selling stolen merchandise. Police questioned people
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: who knew Ramona and who had been involved in stolen property.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Some of the recovered guns came out of those investigations.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: These salasov Ford burglary leads that happened much later suggest
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: people in that same circle were talking about Ramona's murder
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: years later, but that does not prove they were involved.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: It does show that the detectives believe the stolen property
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: and guns network around Ramona were worth exploring. A fourth
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: direction is the possibility that Ramona's death could connect to
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: some of these other deaths in Fort Smith. As we
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: said before, this is much more speculative because police have
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: wondered whether some of the other cases, like Leslie Hoggs,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: could involve a serial killer. The circumstances in victimology may
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: overlap in some ways, both young female victims, both in
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: the Fort Smith area, but the method is not the same.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: There was also another lead. Shortly after Ramona was murdered.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Police arrested a man on suspicion of assaulting his wife.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: When they did, they found out that he was carrying
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: newspaper clippings of Ramona's murder. He said that he was
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: carrying those clippings because Ramona had been his girlfriend, which
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: police said she had not, so they thought that was strange.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Then police talked to Cassie. They found out that both
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: she and Ramona knew this guy. Cassie said that he
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: had asked Ramona out in the past and that Ramona
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: always said no. Then, on New Year's Eve, after Ramona's murder,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Cassie saw this guy at a party and while she
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: was in a bathroom, he grabbed her purse, ransacked it,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: and stole the newspaper clippings mentioning Ramona, and then left
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: the party with the newspaper clippings. This man's name was
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: also redacted. So who was this guy? Was this just
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: a person with a bizarre fixation, or could this be
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: a possible suspect? In my opinion, the location where Ramona's
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: body was found would seem to be extremely important here
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: because you have a situation where the gate was locked
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: and there was only one person who had the key.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Jim the caretaker, told police that the fire brake was
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: cut months earlier, which would mean that that area was
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: regularly inspected, which would also seem to narrow the window
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: of time when it was possible for Ramona to be
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: killed and dumped. Was that gate really inaccessible to anyone
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: else or could the killer have had access somehow? Could
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: he have climbed over the fence if the gate was
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: locked to put her there, and if so, why would
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: he bother to do that? And because Ramona's clothes were
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: found elsewhere, investigators also had to consider multiple scenes the
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: place where the body was found, the railroad track, area
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: where the clothing was found, and wherever Ramona was last
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: alive That could span a massive area including Grand Avenue,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Rolling ar Coma, a private house, a vehicle, or somewhere
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: else entirely were all the people named in the reports
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: ever fully ruled out? Are any of them still alive?
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: A lot of the names in this case report are redacted,
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: but I'm hoping if someone out there is listening, they
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: may recognize the circumstances around this case, and maybe someone
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: who knew Ramona will come forward. Are there surviving witnesses
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: who were teenagers or young adults in Fort Smith, Roland,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: ar Coma or Van Buren in nineteen ninety who may
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: have known something about this case but who never spoke
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: to police. It's been thirty six years and police are
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: releasing the case fall even with all of the black
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: lines in it, I really believe that this case can
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and should be reinvestigated. Ramona was not just a runaway.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: She was somebody's child and someone got away with killing her,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: someone who may have gone on to kill again and
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: could still be out there somewhere. So what happens next today?
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: If this case were to be reopened, investigators could start
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: with the evidence. They could retest Ramona's clothing if it
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: still exists and it's an evidence. They could review the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: roology testing and see if there is any more more
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: modern testing that could be done, maybe get new DNA
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: testing to reexamine the hair evidence. They could grab those
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: old school case falls, some written in chicken scratch handwriting,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: and scrutinize, digitize and compare every single statement and build
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: a better timeline because there are still a lot of
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: gaps of time between February fourth, the last known family sighting,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: and when Ramona disappeared. They could also retrack every twenty
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: five caliber gun that was mentioned in this case file
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: and look at the men who were connected to them.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Most crucially, they could take second looks at the two
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: men who Ramona was known to have conflicts with shortly
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: before her death. There was the guy in the pickup truck,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: but in my opinion, even more crucially, her boyfriend's dad
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: deep in the case file. I found another reference to
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: her boyfriend's dad. Someone else told police that they saw
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Ramona in the parking lot outside her sister's apartment right
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: before she went missing. Ramona told this person that she
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: was headed to her aunt's house, then to shower and
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: go out from there to Grand Avenue, and Ramona said
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: something else. She said that she was headed to get
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: ten dollars that she was owed for cleaning from her
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: boyfriend's dad. That was the last time that this person
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: vers saw Ramona. In my opinion, police should ask the
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: same question J. C Ryder asked in nineteen ninety, who
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: remembers Ramona Gregory. I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production of
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: by me Katherine Townsend and produced by Etily's Perez Special
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance and Sarah
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Burns for legal review. Noah Camer mixed and scored this episode.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Bence A Lee. Executive producers
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and L. C. Crowley. Listen
• 35:23
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• 35:26
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• 35:30
  Speaker 2: in seeing documents and materials from the case, you can
• 35:32
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• 35:37
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