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DAVID HEPWORTH - Why Waterproofing Deserves More Attention · MBV President's Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_04: Thanks to Exact the County for sponsoring this episode.
0:02
SPEAKER_04: Exact understands our industry inside and out.
0:05
SPEAKER_04: The Exact team works with your business on issues that matter to you, such as the new minimum financial requirements and, of course, federal tax changes.
0:15
SPEAKER_04: Exact helps you build financial resilience, improves commercial decision makings, and protects margins, building a solid foundation for your business.
0:25
SPEAKER_04: Master Builders Victoria members can book a complementary private consultation.
0:29
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
0:30
SPEAKER_04: You can call Exact on 1300-233-723 or click on the link in the description below.
0:38
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Founded in 1875, Master Builders Victoria has been supporting excellence in building and construction for generations.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: We represent professionals across Victoria and work together to shape a stronger future for our industry.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: In our President's Podcast series, we'll bring you the latest news and share the stories of the people who make our industry great.
1:09
SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the President's Podcast.
1:11
SPEAKER_04: I'm Steve Peluso, president of the Master Builders Victoria and a builder with over 30 years in the construction industry.
1:18
SPEAKER_04: This podcast is about real conversations with real people.
1:22
SPEAKER_04: No corporate spin, no scripted answers, and no bullshit.
1:25
SPEAKER_04: We talk to people across industry about what actually happens in construction the wins, the mistakes, and the lessons.
1:32
SPEAKER_04: So let's get into it.
1:33
SPEAKER_04: Today's guest is David Hepworth.
1:36
SPEAKER_04: David has spent over 25 years helping builders solve some of the construction's industry's toughest technical problems.
1:42
SPEAKER_04: Isn't that right, David?
1:44
SPEAKER_04: But his journey is far more interesting than waterproofing.
1:48
SPEAKER_04: He's worked in manufacturing, marketing, owned one of Australia's most respected waterproofing businesses, and now spends his time helping builders make better decisions.
1:58
SPEAKER_04: Today we're talking about leadership, problem solving, quality, Australian standards, and why experience still matters in our industry.
2:05
SPEAKER_04: So Dave, your career has taken you from manufacturing to marketing to construction to technical consulting.
2:11
SPEAKER_04: Looking back, what kept drawing you towards solving problems rather than simply selling products?
2:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, I enjoy the process of challenging.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think also you've got constant change.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: And that's that's a motivator.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: So I I like to have challenges and solve problems, and be that in manufacturing, or be that in marketing, or be that in waterproofing issues, or building issues, they're all challenges that are on of the day, as it were.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: You've got to be like live theatre.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: You've got to solve it on the spot.
2:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you've got to you've got to be tickletose, isn't it?
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, tickletoes, that's right.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: Very much a bit like uh we talked earlier about the analogy in sport.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: Sport is very much like that.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: You've got to just play the opponent at the time or the conditions at the time.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's uh And you do know a bit about sport because you have an old campaign.
3:11
SPEAKER_04: So but you didn't start as a builder?
3:14
SPEAKER_02: No.
3:14
SPEAKER_04: No, okay.
3:15
SPEAKER_04: So um so what did manufacturing teach you?
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, manufacturing was a great start in in life.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: I uh uh I started off in actually uh consumer goods, which was effectively um uh soft drink, okay, and then into confectionery.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh and that was great because it it does teach you about the mechanics of actually building a product and what is actually required in terms of getting processes done, what can be automated, it has to be done by hand, all those sorts of things, which I think are important just to understand the logistics.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: Because when you then move into the marketing, which is then looking from the the promoting of a product from the marketplace backwards, uh, then if you understand what's happened with the product, then it makes it easier to communicate the benefits to consumers.
4:11
SPEAKER_04: So from the soft drinks to construction, when did that take place?
4:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, it look sometime later.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: I then had my own uh consulting company for management consulting for targeted at small businesses, trying to increase small businesses to get um uh more productive and more innovative, if you like.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: So uh I did that for about 25 years, which wasn't another good experience because I had involvement with uh getting small businesses, again, mainly manufacturing businesses, um in a variety of industries, but including a couple of funny ones.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: Once uh some uh medical equipment manufacturers in Australia, I helped them get going on some export activity, um which again a whole heap of they're all just new challenges.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: Just looking at new challenges.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: That's what it's really doing.
5:06
SPEAKER_04: So when did you how'd you come across to buy concrete protection?
5:10
SPEAKER_02: They were one of my clients.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh, right.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: And they weren't traveling well.
5:13
SPEAKER_04: Right.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: And I just had the opportunity to buy in it really petty cash.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: So I did.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: Took the gamble and we turned it around pretty quickly.
5:24
SPEAKER_04: So okay, so you built obviously the career on solving problems.
5:29
SPEAKER_04: That's that's where it is.
5:30
SPEAKER_04: So what makes a really good problem solver?
5:34
SPEAKER_02: I think um not getting flustered and certainly not getting worried.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't think I've ever seen a problem being solved by worrying about it.
5:43
SPEAKER_02: So the old saying it is what it is, is understanding what reality is and what you can and can't do in the short term and long term.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:53
SPEAKER_02: So it's just departmentalizing it, really.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: And putting into bite-sized chunks that you can solve.
5:59
SPEAKER_04: So that probably is where you believe in fixing the symptom and obviously fixing the cause.
6:08
SPEAKER_02: The cause, yes.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: The cause so the cause can be can be uh out of your control.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: In other words, for instance, if you have some legislation that is out of your control.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: You have no control over it.
6:22
SPEAKER_03: No.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: So then you've got to deal with it.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: So that can affect the market dramatically.
6:28
SPEAKER_04: So so obviously us builders sometimes we rush into trying to solve problems, don't we?
6:34
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, but you've got the expediency issue.
6:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
6:40
SPEAKER_04: So uh that's important to understand it first, don't we?
6:46
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
6:47
SPEAKER_04: And that's important.
6:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's right.
6:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
6:50
SPEAKER_04: So okay.
6:51
SPEAKER_04: Because that's sometimes where we always get it wrong.
6:55
SPEAKER_04: Um we just rush in to try to fix things and we go, oh, hang on a you know, uh it shouldn't be that way, it should be, you know, this way.
7:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
7:02
SPEAKER_04: And um and sometimes you can make the problem even worse when you're rushing in.
7:07
SPEAKER_04: Um so okay.
7:09
SPEAKER_04: But um, so in your view, what actually makes and talking about builders, um, what makes a great builder?
7:18
SPEAKER_04: And what have you seen as far as you know, who the great uh maybe not mention names, but yeah, who very good builders, generally speaking, um a bit the same as what we mentioned earlier.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: I think don't get flustered.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: They good advice.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: They just say, oh, you know, what could go wrong has gone wrong.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh well let's just let's fix it.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: Let's fix it.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: We'll do this fit first.
7:49
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you've got to do trial and error, sometimes it's a oops, with the rebuild, sometimes it's a it's a maintenance issue.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: Can't fix it properly, but we can redirect the problem, so it's lots less of a problem.
8:04
SPEAKER_04: So, and look, we know that we spend millions every year rectifying defects.
8:10
SPEAKER_04: Um, so in your view, why are there so many?
8:15
SPEAKER_02: We were talking this on the way in, I think, at some stage, but we've discussed over the journey when the VBA was the VBA and now it's the Building and Plumbing Commission, et cetera.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: Um and it's taken a long time in some of their own research to recognize, in fact, probably a large proportion, if in percentage term, probably over 50%, start from bad design in the first place.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: So the builder never has a chance.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: The detail's not put into the plan.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: You're asking somebody to do a deemed-to-satisfy solution and the the detail's not there.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: How can they get it right?
8:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: And and then you've got the problem, of course, which may be solved, um, of knowing what the standards are.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: Now, a builder is not going to know 150 standards off by and by the way, I think as of the 1st of July, too, there's a chance that that will occur.
9:08
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: But it's still not ticked away yet.
9:14
SPEAKER_04: So that other 50% is is that some sometimes products too, yeah, that fail?
9:21
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes products, but almost very rarely it's actually the product.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: It's a bit the old story of saying you can give a good tradesman an average product, or even even a poor product, if he knows what he's got to try and do in the space, yeah, he'll make it work.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: You can conversely, you can give a poor tradesman the best product in the world, a Rolls-Royce, and he'll work out a way to muck it up.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
9:51
SPEAKER_04: Which makes sense because it all a lot of it's to do also with, you know, I mean, you've mentioned the poor design, but you know, communication also is so important.
10:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
10:00
SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's where I, you know, and I I've said that we need to, as builders, need to be out there and be proactive with consultants and experts like yourself to learn products and learn the standards and the because every job's nearly different.
10:14
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
10:15
SPEAKER_02: That's and then and one of the things I often get asked, oh, what's the best product I can buy?
10:21
SPEAKER_02: And well, there isn't the best.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: It's a function of the circumstances you're in.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: And and uh there isn't a one-size-fits-all.
10:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because yeah, I know, because waterproofing seems like it's you know simple until it fails.
10:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
10:38
SPEAKER_04: Um, but then so what's some of the biggest myths that you've heard out there?
10:42
SPEAKER_04: And you would have heard a ton of them.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's lots of different myths, but I suppose um you have people who are proponents of, for instance, torch on membranes and say, oh, you know, it'll never fail if it's a torch-on.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, then you only have to look at half the buildings in the city and f find all the seams that have leaked and broken down and over the journey.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: So there isn't a perfect uh uh scenario, or other myths can be that XYZ brand is always good.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Well, XYZ brand does produce good products, but it doesn't mean to say it's right for every circumstance.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
11:25
SPEAKER_04: So for some of the builders that could be listened in, um what's to what what would they one habit that they should change tomorrow um to reduce any waterproofing um issues the biggest problem I would suggest is timing.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: That is to say, the Which comes down to the detail, doesn't it?
11:50
SPEAKER_02: So devil's in the door.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: Quite often, quite often people, oh, I've got to get that bathroom finished tomorrow.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, the tile is coming in tomorrow.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Um and guess what, the product hasn't even cured and the tile is there.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:06
SPEAKER_04: I know there's a few people there that would uh love to have that argument with you, um especially that are out there.
12:13
SPEAKER_02: But um Yeah, okay.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: So time is the answer.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: Time is the answer.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing is is as was coming up now with the requirement to record things and actually have proof of what you're doing, um, is that uh you need time to inspect later.
12:33
SPEAKER_02: In other words, you may be intending to do a great job, but sometimes when you come back the next day and just with fresh eyes, you say, Oh, that's not quite right.
12:43
SPEAKER_04: I'll just fix that up.
12:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
12:45
SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
12:46
SPEAKER_04: So now we're getting to the Australian standards because I know that you've mentioned that it's misunderstood the standards.
12:53
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
12:54
SPEAKER_04: So what do you mean?
12:56
SPEAKER_02: The language itself in the Australian standards is hard for the average person to understand.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: They look at a diagram, and the majority of diagrams will have under the under the heading, it'll say typical, which means it's a vague idea of what should be done.
13:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: It's not an exact drawing of what you should be doing, it's a typical example, which means there is lots of variations that can go on from there.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: It's not saying this is the only way to do it, it's not saying this is the minimum standard it must be, or this is the maximum standard it must be.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: It's saying this is a typical example.
13:36
SPEAKER_02: Which doesn't necessarily help a contractor who is going to be more visually orientated to say, oh, I'm just following that diagram.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: So it's an interesting one where it's a good idea and the words should doesn't mean to say you must do it.
13:57
SPEAKER_04: If the words shall is it, you must do it.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: How often do people get that wrong?
14:05
SPEAKER_02: All the time.
14:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:06
SPEAKER_04: That's interesting because you've got to watch those words.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: You've got to watch those words.
14:09
SPEAKER_04: Because I think they're even in uh correct me if I'm wrong here, in the N C C sometimes, yeah, that's right.
14:14
SPEAKER_04: It says shall or should.
14:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's right.
14:17
SPEAKER_04: So um just watch those two little words can make a huge difference.
14:22
SPEAKER_04: Isn't it?
14:22
SPEAKER_04: Um so what separates the compliance from excellence?
14:29
SPEAKER_02: Um personal pride.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm gonna throw that out there.
14:34
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
14:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, which makes sense.
14:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: So the excellence is saying here is the standard, which is the minimum you should do, not the maximum, the minimum, the very worst you can do.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: How can I do that better?
14:54
SPEAKER_02: How can I do that?
14:55
SPEAKER_02: What's the principle that the standard is trying to get to?
14:59
SPEAKER_02: How can I do that better?
15:01
SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
15:04
SPEAKER_04: That's that's pretty good.
15:06
SPEAKER_04: Um now you've said relationships create opportunities.
15:13
SPEAKER_02: I think historically, if you look going back to, you know, mm going back to Greece, Romans, any time through history, yeah.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: If you look at how relationships have helped drive change, I think that's been a key.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: And if you look at leadership, leadership really comes from understanding the people game.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm gonna suggest to you that the people game in life, and particularly in business, is a very important thing.
15:44
SPEAKER_04: And that's obviously where it's got you that because it relationships as you've gone through, that's where you are.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: But that it's exactly right.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: That's I think um building relationships and and and enjoying the journey.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's important.
16:00
SPEAKER_04: That's important, isn't it?
16:01
SPEAKER_02: It's I think uh if you're going to build relationships, you've got to like it.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: You've got to want to do it, you've got to you've got to enjoy the journey.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: You know, have fun with people.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's a good idea.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: So that that's the advice that you're giving builders.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:16
SPEAKER_04: Build a relationship, have the trust.
16:18
SPEAKER_04: Have the trust.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: And you it's very easy when you're on site to say that silly so-and-so over there, but like uh, well, how about instead of saying you silly so-and-so, what about saying, hey, look, mate, next time we do this, can we do it this way?
16:32
SPEAKER_02: How about this?
16:33
SPEAKER_02: And what what how can I help you in return?
16:36
SPEAKER_04: And if you and if you don't know, there's a lot of you know, uh wherever you get your products from or reps or whatever.
16:42
SPEAKER_04: You give them a call, don't you?
16:44
SPEAKER_04: Give them a call.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: And build that that's a relationship.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: And people generally will do an extra mile for you if you if you've if you've genuinely tried to be do the right thing.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:56
SPEAKER_04: And and you know, as a from a young builder point of view, if if you start that earlier on in your career, the knowledge that you build is Massive.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: Massive.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: Massive.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: That comes back to the uh talk about the younger, younger people today.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, I think some people have been taught at school that they are entitled to things through their their rights.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: Coming back to building relationships and things.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: Your rights are are really only after you've achieved your obligations.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Right, okay.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: If you build robbations between people, it's a two-way trust.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: You're not there entitled.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: You're not saying, oh, I'm entitled, gimme, gimme, gimme.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: You're saying it's my obligation.
17:45
SPEAKER_02: I will work with you, you work with me.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: That's good advice.
17:50
SPEAKER_04: That's good advice.
17:52
SPEAKER_04: Um the reputation is still everything there.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: I think it's very important.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: And your actions speak louder than words.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, as we used to say in the in Australia in the in the 60s and 70s and 80s, not not so much today, but the BHP model was very much um uh uh underpromise and overperform.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: Right.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: Yep, okay.
18:15
SPEAKER_02: And that was the that was our style of in the in Australia.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: Underpromise and overperform.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: Very much so in the first and second world wars, where they would just they'd have this massive problem in front of them, and they'd they would never promise to do things they ended up taking the surprising all the generals all the time.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: They just made a way of wearing it work.
18:36
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
18:38
SPEAKER_04: So going back a little bit in history now, your father.
18:41
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
18:42
SPEAKER_04: He influenced you in so many different ways.
18:45
SPEAKER_04: Lots of different ways.
18:47
SPEAKER_04: Tell us a little bit about that.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: Well, my my father obviously uh finished the Second World War and came back to Australia after the war.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: Um he'd made some uh contacts with his American colleagues over the journey.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Again, my father was a bit of a character.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: He um while he was in the army, he did um a bit of uh the American troops had them uh you know wrestling troops that came on and they needed some Entertainment?
19:18
SPEAKER_02: Entertainment, some other guys to go.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: My dad was a fairly good sportsman, and um and so anyhow he got introduced, had to learn how to play uh to do uh professional uh wrestling.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: Anyhow, part of that story, of course, is that he had a lot of fun with the troops as they did all these exhibition things and made a lot of friends in the in the American camp.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: And so he subsequently, after the war in Australia?
19:46
SPEAKER_02: No, it was in Egypt and in in uh in uh I think New Guinea.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: And so um they had a lot of fun anyhow.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: So building up a relationship, if you like, he then got a couple of agency things to start at a business in in Melbourne to get us going, and then he subsequently sold that business and worked for uh uh Unite Distillers, which is a big distilling national, international distilling company, for which we Australia had a variety of distilling companies under his belt.
20:19
SPEAKER_02: So we got introduced to a lot of people over the over the journey, and and uh I had a very nice childhood.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very comfortable, but we also met a lot of interesting people over the journey.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's fantastic.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a lot of fun.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: But dad has lots of practical ideas all the time, you know.
20:39
SPEAKER_02: Um if a job's worth doing, doing well, you know, those sorts of things.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: Great role model.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: Great model, yeah.
20:45
SPEAKER_04: Um below.
20:46
SPEAKER_04: Um and you you've mentioned also that um your beliefs how someone lives outside work reflects how they work.
20:54
SPEAKER_04: Can you explain that?
20:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think again, coming back to the personality things.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: Uh look, I think if if your inherent nature is such that you're interested in people and how you behave and work outside work also reflects the type of person you are going to bring into work.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: So if you like we often say with with sport, for instance, that sport reveals the character.
21:23
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make the character, it reveals it.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: So if you've got a chink under pressure, it'll come out.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: Similarly in work.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: So explain what a chink is?
21:35
SPEAKER_01: A chink being a for us young guys.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh a uh uh a flaw in your personality.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: So for instance, if you let's let's say if you get jealous easily, right?
21:48
SPEAKER_02: That's a human behavior.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: If you get jealous easily, um that will show up at some stage when you're under pressure.
21:57
SPEAKER_04: Right, okay.
21:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that makes sense.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: So that's part of that leadership leadership.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's part of that.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: And so that's part of your own own learning and your own journey, as it were, as you're going through life.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: None of us are perfect.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: We've all got flaws everywhere.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: So it's a matter of saying, how do I feel comfortable in my own skin?
22:18
SPEAKER_02: If I'm comfortable in my own skin, I can relate to somebody else.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: I can accept that for when I'm wrong.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: So did sport teach you that?
22:27
SPEAKER_02: I think yes, family and sport, yeah.
22:30
SPEAKER_02: My whole life it's sort of been a, it's always been a an evolutionary reinforcement, really.
22:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: So the principles were there, I guess, for family and and whatever, but you learn it.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: It's repeated, repeated, repeated.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, you get that message all the time.
22:46
SPEAKER_04: Because I know that you're you're a pennant.
22:49
SPEAKER_04: Pennant, but still playing.
22:51
SPEAKER_04: And I just found out that you're still running the uh running up there since the early 60s.
23:03
SPEAKER_04: I think it's fantastic.
23:04
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've got to get into something, but worry about that another time.
23:09
SPEAKER_04: Um so but uh and you're very you're very passionate about creating careers and pathways, especially for the younger people.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the younger, um particular, I think, um, as it is uh I think our obligation is older older people to to pass things on.
23:28
SPEAKER_02: Knowledgeable.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, yes.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: Um so the the concept then is really I think a bit like you know uh some of the podcasts that you hear from uh John Anderson, Tony Abbott, they're actually trying to encourage people to be more um taking take pride in the country, take take pride in your community, take pride in all that sorts of things.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Then you're seeing that overseas too.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Lots of speakers are now talking about just those basic human values.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: And I think that with young people, there they need to have sometimes I think they get very confused.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: I think um I call it the noise.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: The amount of media, amount of social activities, phone, everything else is there's so many messages hitting their brain, I just call it a big noise.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: They need to sometimes take a quiet time.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: Set some time back.
24:30
SPEAKER_04: What's important?
24:33
SPEAKER_04: And you know what, it's it's probably up to some of us to for me to mentor some of these people.
24:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, I don't think there's enough people c coming through or putting their hands up to say, hey, I'm prepared to mentor you or or have a co even just to have a coffee.
24:50
SPEAKER_04: I think that's so right.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: But uh again, we've lost a lot of our culture.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: So in the in Europeans and Asian cultures, the elderly people always looked after the younger people.
25:03
SPEAKER_02: Always helped them up.
25:04
SPEAKER_04: Well it's up to you and me to make sure that we continue that um, you know.
25:09
SPEAKER_04: I'm not that far behind you.
25:10
SPEAKER_04: But anyhow, I've got to start rowing to keep up with you.
25:13
SPEAKER_04: Um also you've we've spoken about before, and I know that uh you know, um, what should us experienced builders uh be teaching that isn't taught at the TAFE?
25:26
SPEAKER_04: So that's you know, because I mean you always hear about, you know, we've seen it now where carpenters um yeah, can they pitch a roof and all that type of stuff, but they're they're they're just um you know, there's that question about okay, how many guys can pitch a roof and so forth.
25:41
SPEAKER_02: Um so what should we be teaching them that Well I think I think I think teaching them to take responsibility for themselves, and I'm saying this because you say pitching a roof and all the rest of it, that the older person should say, Well, look, I can tell you how to do it, but how would you do it?
26:04
SPEAKER_02: What's the thinking process?
26:07
SPEAKER_02: What how are you gonna think about solving this problem?
26:10
SPEAKER_02: I can help you on the way through.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: That's how you're learning.
26:13
SPEAKER_04: The journey.
26:14
SPEAKER_04: Go with the journey with it.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: Go with the journey.
26:15
SPEAKER_04: That sounds a little, it's giving me shivers.
26:19
SPEAKER_04: But it but it's but you're right.
26:21
SPEAKER_04: That's exactly that's so true.
26:24
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I don't think enough of us realize that.
26:26
SPEAKER_04: So I you know, that's really good.
26:29
SPEAKER_04: Appreciate it.
26:31
SPEAKER_04: Um But also now, I just want to go into the technology in the future.
26:37
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
26:37
SPEAKER_04: Where you know what's going to happen with AI um and what excites you most, um, you know, especially with the I think I think AI is is fantastic.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm a babe in the woods with it, but uh I do use it every day.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: Um I think it if you use those sorts of tools, you can get a lot of information to help you make better decisions.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the one of the problems again, going back to a lot of teaching young people how to do, you're better off making lots and lots of decisions.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: If if 51% of them are good, uh you're gonna be amazingly successful.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: Only 51%.
27:24
SPEAKER_02: That's great advice.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: You've got to make decisions.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: They're so paralyzed in terms of not wanting to be wrong.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: That's not the way of the future.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: The way of the future is the old saying, he who dares wins.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: That is, you win whether you succeed the first time, or you win whether you have a loss because you learn a lot more the next time.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: You're much better off.
27:49
SPEAKER_04: Jeez, that's that's pretty powerful.
27:52
SPEAKER_04: That's pretty good.
27:55
SPEAKER_04: So but the technology is not going to replace the experience.
27:59
SPEAKER_04: The technology helps you make better decisions.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the you know, my you know, the technology is fantastic if you want to do a report or whatever.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: You feed in the information and it can spit it out and do all that sort of stuff.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't help you understand what what the real life situation is.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: It can only repeat.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: Get information, it can repeat.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't actually see what's on site.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't actually see who's doing what on site.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, what are the logistics around it?
28:35
SPEAKER_02: You know, what's happening with the trucks?
28:36
SPEAKER_02: What's happening with the lifts?
28:38
SPEAKER_02: What's happening with all this?
28:39
SPEAKER_02: They don't it can't see that.
28:41
SPEAKER_04: I think it's getting to there.
28:42
SPEAKER_04: It was funny.
28:44
SPEAKER_04: Just a quick little story.
28:45
SPEAKER_04: I sold this washing machine.
28:46
SPEAKER_04: It was an old, uh, not you know, the old push-button whirlpool ones.
28:50
SPEAKER_04: The guy came in and um he took photos with his phone underneath and so forth.
28:54
SPEAKER_04: I said, Well, what are you doing?
28:55
SPEAKER_04: He said, I'm just putting it into AI.
28:56
SPEAKER_04: I said, What for?
28:57
SPEAKER_04: He said, it's gonna check if it's all right.
28:59
unknown: Good.
28:59
SPEAKER_04: And it comes up, he goes, Yeah, no, it's all good.
29:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, terrific.
29:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:03
SPEAKER_02: Well, basically, because everything was in place.
29:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
29:06
SPEAKER_04: So I didn't even think about that, but um so uh what worries you about the increase in regulations?
29:14
SPEAKER_04: I know you can talk on for hours on this one, but I think increase in regulations um is part of our current societal mode.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: In other words, we get we look to government to to make regulations and change and change and change.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: We don't say how many regulations are we gonna take off the books before we put more on.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: So what I think the problem with too much legislation is you you're not take you're taking incentive out of people to give it a go.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: You're making it harder for an entrepreneur to have a crack to do something.
29:58
SPEAKER_04: Okay, that makes sense.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: Um and what I think that we need to do is make legislation simplified, not more controversial.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: And so if you recall, I know uh controversial figure, but when Trump came into power the second time round, he got the doge thing to go and try and cut the red tape.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's effectively, I think, what we need to be thinking about, saying, look, if you're going to introduce something, you know, it's got to replace three or four other bits of legislation.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: Don't don't add more.
30:36
SPEAKER_04: Don't add more.
30:38
SPEAKER_04: But it that could be where AI comes into it too.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: Oh, massively.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: Massively.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: Which will probably help.
30:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, massively.
30:45
SPEAKER_04: Because I think um uh someone said about the waterproofing standard it was only X amount pages, and then now it's triple the amount or triple the amount, exactly.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: But and and not only triple the amount.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: Um but again, as we've often said, the the problem with the Australian standard is they don't talk to each other.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: No.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: So the waterproofing standard will tell you that there is a step down required on a balcony.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: The concrete standard says this is how you have a step down, not where you should have a step down or how it's going to perform.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's conflicting.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Two different standards don't talk to each other.
31:25
unknown: Yeah.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: How does that help the builder?
31:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it doesn't.
31:28
SPEAKER_04: It's confusing.
31:29
SPEAKER_04: It's confusing.
31:30
SPEAKER_04: It's confusing.
31:31
SPEAKER_04: Now, um, you told me a little story about a young couple that were renovating the pre-war home.
31:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, pre-war home.
31:39
SPEAKER_04: And you only charge them a small consulting fee.
31:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
31:42
SPEAKER_04: Um so why was that one of the most rewarding projects for you?
31:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, it it was rewarding because they were absolutely frightened about what they were doing.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: They're almost in a panic.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: They wanted to do this job.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: And I had the opportunity to just go to the place and and and the things that they were distraught about.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: I just had the opportunity to say, well, look, it's not, you know, let's put it in perspective.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: Let's come.
32:09
SPEAKER_02: This is all can be handled in a logical manner.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: You put this in place and that's problem solving.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: It's just one step at a time.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: Let's not make the problem massive, let's break it down into smaller bits, and they're not so massive.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: And and the relief on the face is was rewarding.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: That's all I can say.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: Is that they they got away.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: You can see the relief.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: The relief.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Just the pressure on the channel.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: And that's that to me is very rewarding.
32:40
SPEAKER_04: That's pretty cool.
32:42
SPEAKER_04: Now, in each section, what we're doing, we're doing called a rapid fire, yeah.
32:46
SPEAKER_04: 60 seconds.
32:47
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
32:48
SPEAKER_04: And I'm gonna ask you some questions and just short answers.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's fine.
32:52
SPEAKER_04: So I'm gonna fire away.
32:53
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
32:54
SPEAKER_04: Most underrated trade.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: Underrated trade.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know the most underrated trade.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: I think that there's lots of underrated trades.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Um if it depends on what we classify as the trade these days.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean a good carpenter is underrated.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Underrated.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Biggest myth in construction.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: Biggest myth in construction.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: I think uh Okay, I'll go to the the old the old three requirements in in construct construction.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: You can you can have something that produced at a cheap price, you can have something done really quickly, or you can have something done with high quality.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: You can only have two, you can't have three.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: So which you can have you can have cheap and quick, you can have cheap and quality, but the time goes out.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: You can never have all three together.
34:18
SPEAKER_04: That's interesting.
34:19
SPEAKER_04: One Australian standard every builder should understand.
34:22
SPEAKER_04: It's pretty obvious this one.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, I have to say the waterproofing standards, the external standard in particular.
34:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:33
SPEAKER_04: Most important quality in a leader.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: Human awareness.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: In other words, understanding who's the target you're talking to.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: And the ability to make a decision.
34:51
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
34:52
SPEAKER_04: Makes sense.
34:54
SPEAKER_04: Best advice your father ever gave you.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: I think the one I mentioned earlier is you know, if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Doing right, yeah.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: Most important lesson you've learned is probably that one.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well it's all related, uh I think it's all related to the learning phase of uh you know getting on with people.
35:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, one thing builders should stop doing tomorrow.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: I'll go back to rushing.
35:36
SPEAKER_04: Okay, stop rushing.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: Stop rushing, just take it.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: Take it.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: So then one thing builders should start doing tomorrow.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, should start doing tomorrow.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think um uh go back to relationships again, just making sure that the people you're working with you actually get on with.
35:57
SPEAKER_04: If there are parents listening today with were those who have a son or daughter, yeah, and they're considering construction for a career, what would you tell them about the opportunities in the industry?
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'd say that the opportunities are massive in the industry.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: The the opportunity for change and improvement um is phenomenal.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: I think in construction as it's moving towards now, that more and more professional is going to be uh going to be required.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: In other words, you're gonna learn a lot on the journey.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: So it's not just going to be just hands-on on everything.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot to learn about life, a lot about the country you're in, uh, a lot to learn about everything.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: And also, I think the other important is the construction industry is consistently getting better and better through self-development as well as going.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: Self-awareness now in the industry is massively changing.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: And I think the other thing that's changing quite a lot in the construction and industry, as with others, is that people are much more uh friendly to competitors.
37:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: In the the old days, people used to hate the competitor.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: In today's society, there's a much more friendly relationship between competitors.
37:24
SPEAKER_04: So if I put you in a room full of a thousand apprentices, what's the one lesson that you'd want every one of them to remember?
37:34
SPEAKER_02: I'd want them to learn how to be happy in their own skin.
37:38
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: And then you've got to learn it.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: Learn it.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: You've got to learn it.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't happen inherently.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: No, it doesn't.
37:48
SPEAKER_02: You've got to learn it.
37:49
SPEAKER_04: So we're coming to obviously the close of the little our little session.
37:55
SPEAKER_04: So if you write one sentence on the wall every cons on every construction site in Australia, what would it say?
38:03
SPEAKER_04: So you're going to graffiti the wall.
38:08
SPEAKER_04: You're going to sign it off, Dave.
38:10
SPEAKER_04: So what would it say?
38:16
SPEAKER_02: I've left it better than it would start.
38:19
SPEAKER_04: Very good.
38:21
SPEAKER_04: That's excellent.
38:22
SPEAKER_04: Thanks, Dave.
38:23
SPEAKER_04: Appreciate it.
38:24
SPEAKER_04: Pleasure.
38:25
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
38:26
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
38:27
SPEAKER_04: Thank you for joining us.
38:28
SPEAKER_04: If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe.
38:31
SPEAKER_04: Share it with someone in the industry and help us continue having real conversations about the future of construction.
38:37
SPEAKER_04: Until next time, stay safe, keep building, and remember that buildings we create are important, but the people behind them matter even more.
38:45
SPEAKER_04: Speak soon.