Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / From Problem Horse to Professional Practice: What Trauma Teaches Us About Training | Petra Vlasblom of 2Moons.nl, Netherlands | EAW 51

Transcript

From Problem Horse to Professional Practice: What Trauma Teaches Us About Training | Petra Vlasblom of 2Moons.nl, Netherlands | EAW 51 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
0:05
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
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I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
0:46
I've got Petra Blo, who is Dutch and is a little bit of a legend in her
0:56
area of problem solving problem horses.
1:00
Now what has that got to do with equine assisted world?
1:04
What it really has to do with is equine wellbeing and I became aware of Petra
1:09
when she came on a retreat that I did, and we began to talk a, a year and
1:13
a half or so ago, and then I got to see her in action with a horse that
1:19
was, let's say, on the nervous end.
1:24
And I watched her use tools that were unusually reassuring for the horse.
1:33
And then I found out more about her own story and that she had actually
1:38
become a special needs rider, effectively, both physically and
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mentally after a terrible accident.
1:45
And had come to the professional side of horses, actually pretty
1:49
late in by most, you know, equestrian professional standards.
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And I became rather intrigued at how effective she was especially with.
2:03
People in the Netherlands with very, very complex sport horses coming
2:10
to her, and she's just getting this sort of consistent track record.
2:14
And I think for many of us in the equine assisted field, we're getting these
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horses coming to us with trauma's a much overused word, but let's just say stories
2:24
in their life, in their nervous system that maybe impair their own wellbeing.
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And if we can accept that a horse cannot give wellbeing unless it has
2:37
wellbeing, then we really need to look in a much more professional way, I
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think at the donation horses that come to us and not just sort of say, oh,
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well it'll be fine, because it is true.
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Quite often it is, but quite often it isn't.
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And some of those horses end up going back to where they came from and then we
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don't really know what happens to them.
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But then the other thing is, and those of you who know our program are aware
3:05
of this, that actually the rehab of horses is as therapeutic a thing in its
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own right to do as receiving therapy from, if you like, a prepared horse.
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The, the, the rehab of prospective therapy horses we find in our.
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Work is its own therapy.
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It's massively empowering for people.
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You take, you know, someone who came back with trauma from the army or someone
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who's had abuse or someone with a lot of anxiety and say, Hey, listen, this horse
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was broken to some degree in service.
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Can you help me put this horse back together so it can
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serve this person over there?
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The process of doing that is its own therapy.
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So I'm really intrigued to talk to Petra about the methods she
3:54
uses and, and from all of us who are professionals in this field.
4:00
You know, what can we learn and how can we improve things in our own practice?
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So thank you so much Petra, for coming on the show.
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And I'm sorry about the long preamble.
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Can you tell us, you know, a bit more about who you are, how'd you get into
4:13
this, and kind of what's your approach?
4:17
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I'm Petra.
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I'm from the Netherlands, and I've been working as a horse behavior
4:23
trainer since I think 20, 25 years.
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And before that I was a graphic designer, so I was sitting behind
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the computer making beautiful things and never had my own horse before.
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But I really like horse riding.
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But I, I wasn't grow, I didn't grow up in in a farm or in a area
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that there were a lot of horses.
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I was, I was living in the city in the poor side of the city, so there
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was no horse in, around that area.
5:00
So my dream as a little girl to have my own horse didn't came
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out as it was not possible.
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But when I became a little bit older, I still riding horses
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on a, on a riding school.
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And in 2001 I went to Australia for a holiday.
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And there I learned a lot about natural horsemanship and that
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was completely new for me.
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So there was a new.
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Yeah.
5:29
New, new way of handling horses have, have a, an a total, yeah.
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New way of having a, a a communication and a relationship with a horse.
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And after I went to Australia, I was really like, whoa, this,
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this is something special.
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And it changed my mind about my work, about my life, about yeah,
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am I doing the things I want to do?
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So in Australia, I thought, Hmm, maybe I have to go one year, year
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to Australia to learn a lot about the woman who teach me the, the
6:08
basics of the natural horsemanship.
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And then I went for a weekend to Belgium, to the Aden.
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And then I saw a horse and it was a beautiful horse.
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And I heard the story of the horse.
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And he was eight years old and nobody was able to ride him for five years.
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He was very dangerous, very untrainable.
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And he kicked he bit, he he was angry and he was very scared.
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So that was a tough combination to to train.
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And I fell in love immediately, immediately with his horse.
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And when I saw him, I had the feeling we belong together.
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It was stupid because I wasn't planning to buy a horse.
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Long story short, I bought him and I wasn't a professional trainer.
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I didn't have my own horse before, and I bought a horse that nobody, professional
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trainers, nobody was able to ride on.
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So, I bought him as an how do you say it in English?
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Sorry.
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I can
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Rupert Isaacson: experiment.
7:18
Prospect,
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Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
7:19
Experiments.
7:20
It's, it is like, yeah, I, I, I, I, I thought yeah, maybe with the, the
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things I've learned in, in Australia, maybe it's possible to to get a
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better relationship with this horse.
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And I had a feeling it wasn't nobody under understood this horse before.
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So I bought him and, I had a lot of problems because he
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broke my arm by trailer loading.
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So he, he kicked me and broke both bones of, of my underarm.
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He
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Rupert Isaacson: like on the first day loading him or
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Petra Vlasblom: No, it, I, I, of course I have to pick him, picking him up.
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Picking him.
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Sorry.
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Rupert Isaacson: Had to pick him up.
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Yeah,
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Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
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In, in, in in Belgium.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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Petra Vlasblom: And it took two days to get him on in, in the trailer.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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Petra Vlasblom: And after two days, we did a lot of how do we say it in English?
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Tranquilizers in his foot.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
8:16
Petra Vlasblom: And then we get him on the trailer.
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But it was not the Right, he
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Rupert Isaacson: was sedated, right.
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Yeah,
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Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
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Sedated.
8:21
Yeah.
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And it was not the right way, of course.
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And after that, I, I started because I was so interested in the behavior
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of horses and also the behavior of horses that are misunderstood.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Petra Vlasblom: Or maybe not trained well, I don't know.
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At that time I didn't knew.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Petra Vlasblom: And and I started all schoolings courses because
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I really want to have more knowledge about horse behavior.
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So, then I have, have to ask other people who knew, knew more about horse behavior.
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Rupert Isaacson: And I presume you had this horse at a public stable, right?
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You didn't have this horse at home because at that time you didn't have
9:08
Petra Vlasblom: No.
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Rupert Isaacson: The facilities, yeah, yeah,
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Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah.
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Public stable.
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And it was, it was terrible.
9:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Petra Vlasblom: When I arrived there, it took me two, three
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hours to get him into the stable.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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Petra Vlasblom: Because he thought it's the same as the
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trailer and don't get in there.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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Petra Vlasblom: So he was, he was terrible.
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He broke my arm.
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He throw me off every time.
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And it was a tough journey.
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Rupert Isaacson: And this horse, this is the horse.
9:37
Two moons?
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Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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He's still
9:40
Petra Vlasblom: alive.
9:41
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
9:42
He's still alive.
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You barely what was the reaction of the other people in the stable
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to having a horse like this?
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Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
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They didn't like him at all.
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And he was like yeah.
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He's so difficult.
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He was difficult for everyone.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
9:58
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
10:00
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
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So he hurts you.
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He's impossible for everybody.
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You get interested in horse behavior naturally.
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What happens then?
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Petra Vlasblom: Then I.
10:15
I learned a lot and I, I learned I, I had a lot of instructors to, to work
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with him, but every time I thought, Hmm, it's not as I, I, I realized it,
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it was not the way to handle this horse.
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So it was not successful.
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And at that time I thought, oh with my love, I can I can change the mind of
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the horse because I love him so much.
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I'm, I'm taking good care of him.
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And he will trust me and begin to have a better communication with me.
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La la la.
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I, I thought with my love, everything will be okay.
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Rupert Isaacson: And what happened?
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Petra Vlasblom: I've seen a lot of hospitals.
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Rupert Isaacson: So what was the first HOS hospital thing that your love put you
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Petra Vlasblom: into?
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To my, my broken arm.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
11:15
Petra Vlasblom: And then, and then he dislocated my hip.
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Rupert Isaacson: How did he do that?
11:20
Petra Vlasblom: By throwing me off.
11:21
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
11:22
Petra Vlasblom: I have the video, Rupert, we can show them.
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Really?
11:26
I have the video that he, he, it kicked me off.
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Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
11:29
Petra Vlasblom: He was bucking and and running so hard.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
11:33
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
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And
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Rupert Isaacson: and you had professionals look at his back?
11:37
You, you, you checked him out from a veterinary point of view.
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Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, of course.
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Yeah.
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No problem at all.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
11:42
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
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And at that time I realized he was like a mirror to me because
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he was angry and he was scared.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
11:53
Petra Vlasblom: And it was very tough to work with him because sometimes he
11:56
was scared and he wants to run away, but he was on a rope or something,
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so I couldn't I could I, I, I could have hold him and and sometimes he
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was so angry and he was kicking and biting and he was like very aggressive.
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And
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Rupert Isaacson: you say that he was like, your mirror.
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Were you behaving like this as well?
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Petra Vlasblom: To be honest.
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There was one thing that was very much like the the most, the,
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the, I I, I saw that two moons.
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He wants to have the control.
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He couldn't get the control to me or to another person.
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And to be honest, I had the same problem.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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Talk to us about that.
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Petra Vlasblom: And he confront con confront
12:47
Rupert Isaacson: confronted,
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Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
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Confronted me with my own anger and my own fear.
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And I realize,
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Rupert Isaacson: okay, but let's just say if, if everybody in the stable was
12:56
also having trouble with him, and I presume that there were people who were
12:59
employed to feed him, to muck him out, his stable, were they all also angry and
13:07
Petra Vlasblom: No, no, no
13:07
Rupert Isaacson: looking for control or was he okay with some of these people?
13:10
Petra Vlasblom: No, no.
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He was most okay with me.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
13:14
Petra Vlasblom: So I could do the, the most things a little bit better than,
13:19
than, than the other people around him.
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But I realized that he confront, confronted, confront me.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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He was confronting you.
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Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
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Because I, I also was walking around with a lot of anger and a lot of fear, and
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Rupert Isaacson: I And why was that?
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Why were you walking around with this anger and fear?
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Petra Vlasblom: I think we had the same history.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
13:46
Petra Vlasblom: Because I, I had I had a history from my childhood
13:51
that it was not okay to be myself.
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Mm-hmm.
13:55
So there were a lot of problems in the, in the family.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
13:59
Petra Vlasblom: And I'm a very honest person.
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I, I want to get out.
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What you see is what you get.
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Mm-hmm.
14:06
And I want to be honest, and then I'm in my power, even as a child, but it was not
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possible to talk about a lot of things.
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So I had to.
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To yeah, to like freeze.
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I was in, in kind of freeze at that moment also as a child.
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Mm.
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But I'm a tough girl and I was, I was successful in my work and I was
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having a nice life and I was happy.
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And so I never talked about it, but because of two Moon, because
14:41
of this horse, I realized, okay, I've got something to yeah.
14:46
To work out because we have the same problem.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
14:51
Petra Vlasblom: And I couldn't, I couldn't give the control to anyone else.
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I always wanted to have the control.
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Okay.
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And it's the same with two moons.
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He wants to want, always wanted to have the control.
15:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
15:05
Petra Vlasblom: So it was like,
15:06
Rupert Isaacson: so this culminated in a really big accident, right?
15:09
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
15:10
Rupert Isaacson: So tell us about that.
15:12
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I was riding him and I was I was studying horse,
15:16
horse riding, and it was a school in Belgium three year, and it was
15:21
like a holistic dress high school.
15:24
So you, you I had a lot of interesting interesting.
15:28
How do we say it?
15:30
Lessons.
15:31
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
15:33
Petra Vlasblom: And I have to I have to practice for an like,
15:36
dressage competition kind of thing.
15:40
Okay.
15:41
And I did it with two moons and somebody was Oh, my, my, my my boyfriend, he
15:45
was taping film, filming it, and so I said, oh, there, I'm going to gallop
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and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And suddenly he was barking and yeah, I fell off and Okay.
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With, I, I, I stood, stood up immediately, but I, I, I fainted because of the pain.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
16:08
Petra Vlasblom: And then of course they called the ambulance.
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I was in the hospital and I couldn't work for two months.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
16:18
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
16:18
Rupert Isaacson: And
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Petra Vlasblom: what happened?
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So I had a lot of time to think.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
16:23
And what had you done?
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What was the injury?
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Petra Vlasblom: He dislocated my hip so I couldn't walk.
16:28
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
16:28
That was the hip.
16:29
It
16:29
Petra Vlasblom: was painful.
16:30
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
16:32
So then you are parked on the couch.
16:35
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
16:36
Yeah.
16:37
Rupert Isaacson: So you were in petro
16:37
Petra Vlasblom: parking, everyone was finished with this horse, of course, yes.
16:41
Because I could in, in two months I had a broken arm and I, I was
16:46
just out of the, how do you say?
16:48
Cast?
16:49
The
16:49
Rupert Isaacson: cast
16:49
Petra Vlasblom: The cast for two, two weeks.
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And then I dislocated my hip.
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So I have to call my my boss.
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And I said, I'm so sorry.
16:57
But I fall, fell off my horse and I don't know when I can,
17:02
can get to work, but no worries.
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My laptop is on in bed.
17:07
I'm going to work.
17:08
No worries.
17:08
I will work even harder than I was on the company side.
17:15
But every, everyone was finished with this horse.
17:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
17:19
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
17:20
Rupert Isaacson: So what next
17:22
Petra Vlasblom: then?
17:23
I'm, yeah, I, I, I realized for two months, okay, why, what am I
17:30
triggering, triggering with this horse where that he's going, yeah.
17:37
Going to be that dangerous.
17:40
And then I realized yeah, I have to work on myself.
17:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
17:44
So what happens then?
17:45
You work on yourself?
17:46
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, so I went to therapy and I went to, went to courses
17:50
and I did a lot of self-development.
17:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
17:53
Petra Vlasblom: And I, I.
17:57
Understand why it was a problem for me to to give the control to somebody else.
18:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
18:06
Petra Vlasblom: And, and, and, and I, I realized that after I, I started
18:12
working on myself, there was a major change in the relationship with my horse.
18:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
18:20
What happened to, to show give us an example.
18:23
Petra Vlasblom: There was so much more connection.
18:26
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
18:27
Petra Vlasblom: And I'm a very restless person.
18:30
I'm very impatient.
18:33
And and there was a time that my boyfriend was working in the stable,
18:38
he was cleaning the stable, and one of the one of the friends on the stable
18:45
came to him and said, I saw Pat working with a horse, and I've never seen
18:50
somebody working with a horse so quiet.
18:55
So relaxed.
18:56
So, so in love.
18:59
So in, in such a beautiful connection.
19:03
Hmm.
19:03
And my boyfriend thought, Hmm, is it, is this about pet?
19:08
I really have to go and have a look because this is not how, how I know Pedro.
19:15
So there is something inside myself, there was changing something inside myself.
19:22
And I found like more rest in myself.
19:26
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
19:27
Petra Vlasblom: Is that clear?
19:28
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
19:30
More rest, more contentment perhaps.
19:33
Okay.
19:34
So things get better and then what happens?
19:37
Petra Vlasblom: And then I could ride him, I could load him on
19:40
the trailer even on my own.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
19:43
Petra Vlasblom: So there's a major change in, in this horse.
19:46
And then the first questions came oh, you had a very difficult horse.
19:51
But it's so easy now.
19:53
Can you help me?
19:54
Because I also have a, this difficult horse.
19:57
So I stopped my, I, I stopped working in the advertisement agency.
20:03
Mm-hmm.
20:03
And I began my own company, my own business.
20:07
Rupert Isaacson: And that's when two Moon's Equestrian was born.
20:09
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
20:10
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
20:11
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
20:11
I think in 2002 to 2003.
20:14
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
20:15
Yeah.
20:16
So again, just keep going with the story because it gets interesting.
20:19
Yeah.
20:23
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, so I started my own company and I began to train
20:27
horses and I, I liked it so much.
20:32
Yeah.
20:32
I really liked it.
20:34
And and in, at that time, I, I was working, yeah.
20:39
All day with long, with, with horses.
20:42
And I noticed some of the horses, not all horses, but with working
20:48
with some of the horses there became like a special special connection.
20:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
20:57
Petra Vlasblom: And sometimes with horses that were really
21:00
aggressive or attacking people.
21:04
Mm-hmm.
21:05
And when I was able to stand next to the horse and to touch
21:10
them by the chest and by the, oh, how, how do I say it in English?
21:17
It's just before the settle,
21:19
Rupert Isaacson: the, the, the, the weather.
21:21
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
21:21
Yeah.
21:22
When I touched the horse there was in, in the beginning there was a lot of,
21:28
like, it was, it looks like there was an inner, inner inner stress of the war.
21:36
Mm-hmm.
21:37
Sort.
21:38
Yeah, stress angriness and.
21:42
Not able to, to make the communication don't trust me
21:47
enough to make communication.
21:48
Yeah.
21:49
And then suddenly it was changing and the horse became soft relaxed soft in
21:56
the face, soft in the, in the body.
21:58
And there was a, like a really deep connection.
22:03
And I have a lot of movies and videos ab from, from that kind of work.
22:08
So it's easy to show it than to tell it.
22:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
22:11
Almost like a kind of reassuring body work
22:14
Petra Vlasblom: effectively.
22:14
Yeah.
22:15
Yeah.
22:15
And, and, and, and and I realized, hmm, that's something special.
22:19
And yeah.
22:21
But it was there.
22:22
And, and after there, after that, yeah.
22:26
Special connection, the horse changes completely.
22:29
Not only with me, but also with his owner and in, in, in interaction with his owner.
22:36
He wasn't angry anymore, not aggressive anymore.
22:39
There was a major change, but I couldn't explain, so everybody
22:47
asked me, what are you doing?
22:48
I said, I don't do anything.
22:50
I'm only present, but I don't do something specific.
22:56
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
22:57
Petra Vlasblom: I fought.
23:00
I fought.
23:01
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
23:02
But it turns out you were doing something specific.
23:05
Petra Vlasblom: I did not do for a long time, Rupert, because
23:08
everybody ask me, what are you doing?
23:10
Are you spiritual?
23:12
Are you working on a energetic way?
23:15
And I said, no, I'm not spiritual.
23:17
I said, no, I'm just here.
23:20
I'm just present.
23:21
I work with a lot of love.
23:25
I don't use pressure or force, don't force horses to do something.
23:31
I just give them the chance to, to work together and to, to get a better
23:38
relationship, relationship together.
23:42
And I did it for, I, I think 20 years, but I, I didn't dare to show
23:49
the videos, so I only showed the videos to my students, or I, I haven't
23:54
thought yet that I started the school.
23:57
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
23:58
Yeah.
23:58
But yes, if you couldn't explain what you were doing, how could you start a school?
24:02
Because you need, you need a curriculum.
24:05
Yeah,
24:06
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah.
24:07
No, I to be honest, in 2010, I had so much work.
24:11
I was working seven days a week.
24:13
I, I, I couldn't handle the work.
24:16
So, clients asked me, don't you have anything else to work with?
24:20
And I thought, no, I, I.
24:22
I don't have any fun anyone else to work with because I do it
24:27
so different than the normal, natural, well horsemanship methods.
24:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
24:32
Petra Vlasblom: So I work a little bit different.
24:34
So, so
24:35
Rupert Isaacson: this is gonna be my question.
24:36
So when people are listening to your story and they say, okay, Petra went to
24:42
Australia to learn natural horsemanship, then she gets this difficult horse, then
24:46
she goes to a holistic dressage place, which is probably using a fair bit of
24:52
natural horsemanship in the way that we all think of as natural horsemanship.
24:56
And now suddenly you're not doing that anymore.
24:59
So question number one, why did you stop doing the normal natural horsemanship?
25:06
And question two, what did you do instead?
25:11
Petra Vlasblom: To be honest, I, I looked at, at everyone everywhere.
25:16
I tried everything.
25:18
But, and I still use some of the methods or some of the how do you say it?
25:26
Rupert Isaacson: Like the round pen and that sort of thing?
25:28
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
25:28
But the round pen, I don't use it for the, the something that's funny because
25:33
I don't use it to train the horses.
25:36
Mm-hmm.
25:36
I use the ramping to train the students on their body L language.
25:40
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
25:41
Petra Vlasblom: So it's different.
25:42
Okay.
25:42
Rupert Isaacson: So what did you learn about body language that was different
25:45
to the normal natural horsemanship?
25:48
Petra Vlasblom: Because if you work with horses and you are aware of
25:51
every part of your body, like your hands, your is it open, is it closed?
25:57
Is it, is it round?
25:59
Are your movements round or like this or and I, when I'm working with horses
26:09
especially when I work with horses that don't want to be touched or doesn't
26:15
trust anyone anymore, it's very it's important that I, I use this, the,
26:22
the, the body language that is okay for the horse and every little signal
26:28
can be too much for a horse like that.
26:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
26:31
Petra Vlasblom: And, and so I teach my students yeah.
26:36
What's the difference between when your are should is a little bit like this
26:41
or like this, when you are standing in front of doors or your, the point of
26:45
your toe toes it can stop the horse.
26:49
Even a running horse.
26:50
It can stop the horse.
26:51
When, when, when you are, the point of your toys is to toes.
26:55
The point of your toes is in front of the horse.
27:00
Hmm.
27:00
Or you can even stop the horse when you are lunging.
27:05
So
27:05
Rupert Isaacson: it's,
27:06
Petra Vlasblom: It's, it's very interesting.
27:08
Yeah.
27:08
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
27:09
So you begin to teach students how to handle their body language
27:14
in a way that wins trust does not trigger the horse negatively.
27:20
This I can understand was, was the hip dislocation your last trip
27:26
to the hospital with two moons?
27:28
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
27:28
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
27:29
Petra Vlasblom: Not the last with horses.
27:32
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
27:32
So, so talk
27:34
Petra Vlasblom: I also broke my neck.
27:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
27:36
So you, that's a, that's quite a big thing to leave out.
27:40
All right.
27:40
So how did you break your neck?
27:42
Under what circumstances?
27:44
And then how did that inform your work and what you do?
27:49
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
27:50
That's what was not with my horse.
27:52
Two moons.
27:53
It was with
27:53
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
27:53
Petra Vlasblom: Young horse riding a young horse.
27:56
Rupert Isaacson: How many, how many years after your last accident with
28:00
two moons, did you break your neck?
28:02
Petra Vlasblom: I think two oh oh.
28:06
10 years later, I think
28:07
Rupert Isaacson: 10 years later.
28:08
Okay.
28:08
So, so you have this success, you have this breakthrough with two moons.
28:12
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
28:12
Rupert Isaacson: People start noticing, people start sending their horses to you.
28:16
At first.
28:17
You can't explain what you're doing, but then you start to look at what
28:21
at your body and realize, oh, I see.
28:24
Maybe I can show people how to move their bodies in a way with a horse
28:31
that helps the horse to win trust.
28:34
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
28:34
Rupert Isaacson: This is successful for a while, and then you break your neck.
28:37
So how, what is, you know, because by now you, you know,
28:41
how to really handle horses.
28:43
What, what, what goes wrong?
28:45
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
28:45
Yeah.
28:46
To be honest, I'm I'm, I really like my work.
28:51
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
28:52
Petra Vlasblom: So that's also I don't know the English word,
28:54
but I really like my work, so I'm working, working, working, working.
28:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
28:59
Petra Vlasblom: Sometimes I don't listen to my body.
29:01
Okay.
29:02
And that was the, it was a real signal.
29:07
Pet don't work so hard because I, at that time I was living in France.
29:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
29:13
Petra Vlasblom: I had my own place in France.
29:15
And Okay.
29:15
Rupert Isaacson: So you become really successful enough with this whole horse
29:19
rehab thing to buy a pla to get your own place in France and run a business there.
29:25
All right.
29:26
Petra Vlasblom: Yep.
29:27
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
29:28
How does it happen?
29:29
What, what was the circumstances of the accident?
29:32
Just talk to us about the accident.
29:34
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
29:34
It was a young, young horse and and to be honest, I worked for seven weeks.
29:40
I had, I had a school, the school was the school was in the Netherlands.
29:45
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
29:45
Petra Vlasblom: And there were three years of schooling, so it was
29:49
very intensive for the students.
29:51
Three years with 15 modules.
29:55
Okay.
29:55
And two of the 15 modules are organized in France.
30:00
And one of the modules was like working on your body language.
30:04
And the other mo module was working on your behavior patterns.
30:09
So part of the, of the schooling is working on yourself.
30:15
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
30:15
Petra Vlasblom: And personal development.
30:18
So I was working in France with all the students, seven weeks
30:22
long with no no, free day.
30:26
So it was very, very,
30:28
Rupert Isaacson: the people have to take seven weeks out of their life
30:30
Petra Vlasblom: to come.
30:31
No, no, no.
30:31
One week.
30:32
But I had seven.
30:33
Oh,
30:33
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
30:33
Got yeah,
30:34
Petra Vlasblom: yeah,
30:34
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
30:35
Petra Vlasblom: And and then the last group I was finished and I was I was free
30:42
and I thought I was and the next morning I wake up and I thought, oh, I'm so tired.
30:48
But I have an appointment with Jean Paul to ride his horse and with
30:55
white to, to ride two young horses.
30:58
But I was so tired and I felt, Hmm.
31:01
I don't, I don't have the feeling.
31:05
I don't, yeah.
31:06
Normally I'm really happy to work.
31:09
Yeah.
31:09
But at that time I thought, Hmm.
31:11
But the social feeling of, I, yeah, I have an appointment, I have to do it.
31:17
Mm-hmm.
31:18
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
31:19
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, the obligation.
31:20
So
31:20
Rupert Isaacson: professional.
31:21
Yeah.
31:21
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
31:21
I, so I went to the two horses, and one of the horses was bucking and he
31:27
kicked me off and I was, I felt on the ground with my chin on the ground,
31:34
but I had a lot of it, it was fast.
31:37
So I was right, like, with my chin on the ground, and then I broke my
31:41
neck and I, yeah, I, my, my inside of my mouth was how do you say it?
31:48
Like
31:51
Rupert Isaacson: Thorn?
31:52
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah,
31:53
Rupert Isaacson: thorn.
31:53
Yeah.
31:53
Yeah,
31:54
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
31:54
So, and then I was for four months in a harness.
32:00
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
32:01
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
32:02
So I al already had a lot of time to think.
32:06
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
32:07
And what.
32:08
Was the result of those thoughts
32:11
Petra Vlasblom: that I have to be to, to take care a little bit more about myself
32:16
and less for all the other yeah, animals, but also also for my family and friends.
32:23
Because sometimes once a friend called me and says do I have to buy a problem
32:29
horse to make an apartment with you?
32:32
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
32:33
Okay.
32:34
Petra Vlasblom: And she was right because when she asked me, oh, do you have time
32:39
to go to like, for dinner or something?
32:42
I said, no, no, no.
32:43
I'm so, I'm so, I'm so,
32:45
Rupert Isaacson: busy with,
32:45
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, busy working la la and if, if there was somebody who says,
32:49
oh, I have real big problem with my horse.
32:51
I always, it was always, I was always able to make time.
32:56
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
32:56
Petra Vlasblom: So I was running too hard, working too hard, and I forgot myself.
33:03
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
33:03
Let me just ask you, as a horseman though, some practical questions about the young
33:08
horse with whom you had this accident.
33:12
Did you have a sense of, yeah, maybe I shouldn't get up on this horse.
33:18
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
33:18
But I didn't listen.
33:20
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think you got up and, and today if you
33:24
were with the same horse today?
33:27
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
33:28
Rupert Isaacson: Would you say this horse is not ready for a rider now?
33:32
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
33:33
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you think then?
33:35
Because by then you had accrued quite a lot of experience.
33:39
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
33:39
Rupert Isaacson: What made you think Yeah, it's, it's an okay
33:43
decision to get on this horse?
33:45
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
33:46
I think maybe because I was tired and I, I I was not concentrated good enough because
33:53
I am, I'm working with horses still, and I'm fast because when a horse is doing
33:58
something, I'm, I have a very good and very fast reaction better, and, and I fell
34:06
off, fell off the horse at that time, and I fell on my chin where were my hands.
34:11
Normally you protect yourself with your hands.
34:14
Mm.
34:15
So I was too tired.
34:17
I was not in my power.
34:20
It was such, such,
34:21
Rupert Isaacson: do you think if you had been less tired and more in your power
34:25
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
34:26
Rupert Isaacson: It would have been okay to be on the horse or do you think in
34:30
any situation that horse was not ready?
34:34
Petra Vlasblom: No, I, I think it was a combination.
34:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
34:37
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, and I was not, I was not concentrated enough.
34:41
It, it was like maybe I had a feeling of I will ride to two horses and then
34:48
then I'm free for a, a couple of days.
34:53
Rupert Isaacson: Were you surprised that the horse threw you or were did you think
34:57
yeah, I kind of knew that would happen.
35:00
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
35:00
No, I was not surprised.
35:02
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
35:02
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it was hard.
35:04
It was hard.
35:05
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
35:07
So then you have this accident, and this must have been quite
35:09
difficult for your ego because Yeah.
35:11
Now you are the professional, you're the big professional.
35:13
You've got a school, you're the one telling people how to be with horses.
35:17
You have this place in France, and now you get chucked off
35:21
and you have this accident.
35:23
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
35:24
Rupert Isaacson: And okay.
35:24
You said, okay, I need to take time for me, et cetera.
35:28
Sure.
35:29
But
35:31
there's more.
35:33
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
35:35
Rupert Isaacson: When you came out of that, cast the harness, and you said,
35:41
okay, I'm, I'm continuing with my career.
35:46
Forget the human side for a moment.
35:50
Let's just talk about the horse side for a moment.
35:53
What fundamentally changed in your evolution after that neck break?
36:01
You must have then said, okay, I need to rethink a little bit.
36:07
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
36:07
Rupert Isaacson: How I'm doing this.
36:09
What were the main
36:12
things that you thought, okay, now I change, I changed from this to this.
36:18
What did you change to?
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38:03
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
38:04
The biggest lesson I've learned was listening to my intuition and and do
38:11
what my is intuition is telling me.
38:14
And I, I think before that I was listening to everyone who needs help
38:23
and now and, and after that accident, I really listened to my intuition.
38:28
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
38:28
Because this is interesting to me.
38:29
It doesn't sound to me like you were making an intellectual or an
38:38
ego decision to get on that horse.
38:41
It almost sounds to me like, and this is a, this is a, a really
38:47
interesting, complex situation.
38:49
It sounds to me like you were actually coming from a place of a decision from
38:57
the heart, meaning, I want to help.
39:03
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
39:03
Rupert Isaacson: I feel an obligation to help
39:08
and listening to the heart, but not the gut.
39:12
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
39:13
Rupert Isaacson: And that is, I think, a really interesting
39:15
distinction because normally when we have these sorts of conversations.
39:23
It frequently goes to people saying, well, I listened too much to the head.
39:28
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
39:28
Rupert Isaacson: I didn't listen enough to the heart, or I didn't listen enough
39:32
to the gut, but I know what you mean.
39:36
I also have made decisions sometimes that were too much heart-based
39:43
that ended up being just as wrong.
39:47
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
39:47
Rupert Isaacson: As if they had been too much head-based.
39:51
That the gut is still really the most powerful factor.
39:57
We often think, oh, a, a decision from the heart.
39:59
That's a good decision.
40:00
It it is sometimes, but it isn't always.
40:04
And whereas gut kind of is always, which makes us have to face the possibility,
40:13
the probability that the gut is the most important part of the brain.
40:19
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
40:19
Rupert Isaacson: And that actually the heart is secondary and perhaps
40:23
the intellect is third, but it's, I just wanted to draw attention to
40:29
this because you know, one would have a lot of people saying heart-based
40:34
horsemanship or you know, we do a lot of work with the Heart Math Institute, so
40:38
we think heart good and heart is good.
40:41
Petra Vlasblom: It is, yeah.
40:43
Rupert Isaacson: But it's not enough by itself.
40:45
And that is interesting.
40:46
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it is.
40:47
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, so you go back in and you say, all right,
40:52
I need to be now more intuitive.
40:54
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
40:54
Rupert Isaacson: More gut-based.
40:56
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
40:56
Rupert Isaacson: So how do you change your approach?
40:58
What are the changes that we would see?
41:00
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
41:01
To be, to be honest I was really scared because for four months I
41:05
lived alone in France with horses, with a dog, with all kind of animals.
41:11
I was alone in the harness.
41:13
Rupert Isaacson: Where was the boyfriend by this time?
41:18
Petra Vlasblom: The boyfriend I had when I bought two moons.
41:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
41:22
Petra Vlasblom: He died.
41:24
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I'm sorry.
41:24
Petra Vlasblom: No, it's okay.
41:26
Because it's a, it's also a part of my life.
41:28
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
41:29
Petra Vlasblom: Just before we wanted to move to France.
41:32
Okay.
41:32
We, we found a house to li to move to France, from the Netherlands
41:37
to France, and we wanted to start a company in France.
41:41
And we found a beautiful place and we, yeah, we de decided,
41:47
okay, we are going to move.
41:48
And we went to all the family and friends with photos and
41:52
said, okay, we are going to move.
41:53
Look beautiful.
41:55
And yeah.
41:56
Then at one night he get a heart attack and he died.
41:59
Rupert Isaacson: Shit.
42:00
Petra Vlasblom: Yes it did.
42:01
It was shit.
42:02
Yeah.
42:03
Yeah.
42:04
And he had a company, I had a company, so next day I had to run two companies.
42:09
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
42:10
Petra Vlasblom: And I was planning to move to France, but I, yeah, it, it
42:15
was impossible because we wanted to buy an old house and he was a handyman.
42:20
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
42:21
Petra Vlasblom: So yeah.
42:22
The future was a little bit different by then.
42:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
42:26
Petra Vlasblom: And so I struggled to get rid of his company and and I, I, I, yeah.
42:35
Gave it away to one of his employee employees.
42:38
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
42:39
Petra Vlasblom: And then after I think seven, eight months, I decided, okay, I'm
42:44
going alone with the two horses to okay.
42:46
To France.
42:47
So I moved to France.
42:50
So that's why there was no, no husband.
42:53
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
42:54
Got it.
42:54
Yes.
42:54
Got it.
42:55
Okay.
42:56
Petra Vlasblom: And
42:56
Rupert Isaacson: so now
42:56
Petra Vlasblom: you
42:57
Rupert Isaacson: are honest
42:57
Petra Vlasblom: to, to be honest, when I broke my neck, I was just in love with
43:01
another husband and now with my husband.
43:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
43:05
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
43:05
Rupert Isaacson: Is he okay?
43:07
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
43:07
Rupert Isaacson: And but when you broke your neck, you'd fallen
43:10
in love with this man, but you were not living with him at that
43:12
Petra Vlasblom: point?
43:13
No, no, no.
43:13
We were just, I think.
43:15
For couple of months together.
43:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
43:18
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
43:19
So I was, I was alone.
43:21
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
43:22
Petra Vlasblom: In France I didn't have income
43:25
Rupert Isaacson: for
43:25
Petra Vlasblom: four months.
43:26
I couldn't work.
43:27
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
43:27
Petra Vlasblom: And I was afraid, can I have, do my work again because mm-hmm.
43:31
Will I have a headache?
43:33
How, how, how do get I get out of this harness?
43:36
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
43:37
Petra Vlasblom: But yeah, no problem.
43:40
When, when the harness was out, I felt, I felt good and I could work.
43:46
So I was really happy that I was able to work, to get to,
43:50
to continue all the lessons and
43:53
Rupert Isaacson: alright.
43:53
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
43:54
Rupert Isaacson: But now you start working in a different way and you,
43:59
how do you change your curriculum?
44:00
What are you telling your students at this point?
44:03
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, I I, I take my students I, I, I will tell
44:08
them a lot about the mistakes I make because I also always say to them,
44:13
I didn't have the 50 mo modules.
44:16
I have, I have had a, i, I made a lot of mistakes.
44:21
So I was in the after, after some trainings in the car with
44:26
the mascara on my chin because I didn't, I, I made mistakes.
44:30
I I have to learn a lot.
44:32
And now I tell my students you don't have to make that mistake, because
44:37
I can tell you exactly yeah, how to be powerful, how to be good for
44:43
yourself, but also good for the horse.
44:45
So, you have to take care of yourself and you have to take care of the horse and
44:49
to take care of the owner of the horse.
44:51
So it's, it's like a combination of things.
44:54
Rupert Isaacson: So can you give us an example?
44:56
Naturally, our curiosity is, is there give us an example that you would
45:00
tell your students of a time you ended up with raccoon eyes, with the, the,
45:05
the mascara running down your face that you would say to your students,
45:10
now you don't have to do this.
45:11
Give us an example of that situation.
45:14
Petra Vlasblom: Now, one of the examples is that when, when you are training
45:17
horses, it's not always successful.
45:20
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
45:21
Petra Vlasblom: And in the learning curve of an, of a horse, but also the
45:24
learning curve of human beings, it's like line is going up uphill, eh, like this.
45:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
45:32
Petra Vlasblom: But there are always, I don't know the English word, but there
45:35
are always like holes in the line.
45:38
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
45:39
Peaks and valleys.
45:40
Yeah.
45:40
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
45:41
Yes.
45:41
And that's a part of the, a part of the learning curve, so,
45:46
Rupert Isaacson: right.
45:46
So what, okay.
45:47
Give us, give us a concrete example
45:50
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
45:50
Rupert Isaacson: And how one would avoid it.
45:51
So,
45:51
Petra Vlasblom: so when you are training like a horse with trailer
45:54
loading problems, and you are going there and and you, you, you are
45:59
successful, the horse is going into the trailer and it, it's his choice to
46:04
get in and the owners are very happy.
46:07
And then there is a situation that owners calling you and says, okay,
46:13
the horse doesn't load anymore and you didn't do the right job.
46:16
La la la, la.
46:17
And then I always says, it's, it's just, it's, it's a part of the learning system.
46:21
So, it's not that you didn't do your job well, but go again train the
46:28
horse, train the owner, and, and let them experience how to get back on
46:34
the, on the, on the learning curve.
46:37
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
46:38
Okay.
46:38
Petra Vlasblom: And it's part, it's part of the training.
46:40
So it, so it's, it's, it of course can be very disappointing at that time,
46:48
but it's, it's a part of training,
46:49
Rupert Isaacson: right.
46:50
I know that you specialize now a lot in the.
46:54
Loading horses, difficult, impossible horses.
46:58
Yeah.
46:58
And everyone is always intrigued by this because we have all been in the position
47:03
where it's getting dark or it is dark.
47:07
Petra Vlasblom: You have to go home
47:08
Rupert Isaacson: and you can't go.
47:09
It's
47:10
Petra Vlasblom: raining.
47:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
47:12
And
47:12
give us your 1, 2, 3, your standard way of saying first, what do you do
47:21
when somebody is in this situation?
47:23
Because I know you could say, well, they should have prepared, but we
47:28
know that often this does not happen.
47:31
So let's say you get a call from somebody who's sitting somewhere at
47:37
night saying, I can't load the horse.
47:40
Petra, come.
47:42
So let's start with that situation, and then let's go to your conversation
47:47
with that person afterwards, perhaps the next week, and say, Hey,
47:51
listen, what you need to do with this horse is this, this, and this.
47:55
So let's start with the crisis.
47:57
You get the call, they call Petra.
47:59
Petra shows up.
48:02
It's 12 o'clock at night.
48:03
The horse has been.
48:05
Not loading since nine o'clock.
48:08
You know,
48:09
Petra Vlasblom: it ha it happened so many times.
48:10
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
48:11
Talk us through the situation step by step.
48:13
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:14
What happened in a situation like that is that, that everyone is angry,
48:19
everyone is stressed, everyone is having tired fight with each other.
48:24
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
48:24
'cause
48:24
Petra Vlasblom: you are there in the, in 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock Yes.
48:29
You wanna be at home, but you are still there on the stable with a horse that
48:33
doesn't want to load on the trailer.
48:34
Yes.
48:35
So it's a situation.
48:37
Nobody's happy.
48:39
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
48:40
Petra Vlasblom: Everyone is angry about the horse because Yeah.
48:44
It's because of the horse that you are there.
48:47
So, everyone is stressed and there is a lot of disharmony.
48:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
48:53
Petra Vlasblom: And when I come, I I, I tell the owner with her husband
48:59
or friends or whatever, I tell, okay, I understand you are stressed.
49:05
I understand this is not a nice situation.
49:08
I've been there many, many times.
49:10
So, it's very important that I understand their feelings.
49:14
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
49:15
Petra Vlasblom: So you can get a little bit of you can
49:18
take it a little bit away by
49:20
Rupert Isaacson: some compassion.
49:21
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
49:22
So it's very important to have compassion and understanding for all the stress
49:28
and the disharmony and the fights that the, that, that the owner is having with
49:33
her husband or children or whatever.
49:36
Right.
49:37
Okay.
49:37
Then, then there is a little bit more, okay, I'm a little bit better feeling
49:44
and then I'm going to the horse.
49:45
And the horse is thinking, okay, there's number 30.
49:50
Who's going to try to get me into the trailer?
49:55
So the horse thinks, okay, Petra is the same as everyone who's
50:00
trying this, this, this evening.
50:02
And she will get angry.
50:04
She will use pressure.
50:07
She will force me, and I'm going to the, to the horse.
50:10
And I really tell the horse.
50:14
Okay.
50:15
I understand that you are angry or that you are having fear
50:20
for the trailer or whatever.
50:22
Do you
50:22
Rupert Isaacson: say this with your voice out loud?
50:23
Yes.
50:23
As if you were talking to a human?
50:25
Yeah.
50:25
Yeah.
50:25
Okay.
50:26
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
50:26
Rupert Isaacson: So you express the emotion.
50:28
Petra Vlasblom: I
50:28
Rupert Isaacson: always talk
50:29
Petra Vlasblom: to horses.
50:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
50:30
Always.
50:31
I think this is an important distinction.
50:33
Yeah.
50:33
Petra Vlasblom: Be because I don't know for sure if the horse will understand
50:37
me or, or he, he will get it, but when he, he is he is understanding me.
50:45
It's a way, it's stupid that I don't say it.
50:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
50:49
So
50:49
Petra Vlasblom: I always talk to horses and I say, I will tell the horse, okay,
50:53
I, I understand that you are angry or that you are don't trust anyone anymore.
50:58
But I'm not here to force you.
51:01
I'm not here to correct you in a way.
51:05
I'm here to help you.
51:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
51:07
Petra Vlasblom: I'm here to help you.
51:08
That's the only reason why I'm here.
51:11
I'm here to help you.
51:13
Okay.
51:13
And, and I work with a lot of gentleness, a lot of love, a lot of.
51:20
Honesty to the horse.
51:22
And and the biggest problem with anyone in that kind of situation is that they
51:29
want to have the horse into the trailer.
51:31
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
51:32
Petra Vlasblom: So if you, like when you were, are with
51:36
a little child foy years old.
51:38
You, you go go to the like, the swimming pool and you start
51:43
on the highest jumping, diving
51:45
Rupert Isaacson: board.
51:46
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
51:46
Yes.
51:46
Diving, you start on the high highest diving board and you
51:50
push the child for years old.
51:53
You push the child.
51:54
That's what we do with horses.
51:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
51:57
Petra Vlasblom: We don't, we don't start in the C child
51:59
Rupert Isaacson: room.
51:59
Indeed, indeed.
52:00
No, no.
52:00
We, we understand that there has not been the correct preparation,
52:04
but you're there and you're saying these nice things to the horses.
52:07
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
52:07
Rupert Isaacson: But it's midnight.
52:08
The horse needs to go in the trailer.
52:09
What are you gonna do?
52:10
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
52:10
I, I, I start with making connection with the horse.
52:14
Yeah.
52:14
A little bit of groundwork.
52:16
Not groundwork.
52:17
You are working with my but groundwork on a way that I'm that
52:22
I am clear about my personal space.
52:25
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
52:26
So that, talk us through exactly what you do.
52:29
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
52:29
Rupert Isaacson: You, you put a Holter on the horse.
52:30
You move him in a circle around you.
52:32
Petra Vlasblom: No, I, no, I, I don't use like the joy of something.
52:37
No.
52:37
I only use rope and a halter.
52:40
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
52:40
Petra Vlasblom: And rope.
52:42
Like, but
52:43
Rupert Isaacson: is the horse moving his legs?
52:44
Petra Vlasblom: No.
52:45
Rupert Isaacson: Is he moving?
52:46
Petra Vlasblom: Only, only thing I will ask the horse is when I I'm
52:50
turning the rope towards the horse.
52:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
52:53
Petra Vlasblom: I'm only asking him to back up.
52:56
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
52:56
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
52:57
And when he does a little bit of backup, only once centimeter
53:01
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
53:02
Petra Vlasblom: I stop and I reward with my
53:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
53:05
Petra Vlasblom: And when the horse is realizing, oh, I only have to
53:11
back up a little bit and he respects my personal space, then there is
53:15
something going to happen in the relationship between me and the horse.
53:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
53:21
Petra Vlasblom: And most of the time the horse is getting a
53:24
little bit softer, a little bit.
53:26
Yeah.
53:27
More open to learn because normally a horse like that
53:30
is not open to learn anymore.
53:33
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
53:33
Petra Vlasblom: And I have to make the horse open to learn and to be okay.
53:39
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you are talking to him, you're touching him,
53:41
you back him up a little bit and then,
53:44
Petra Vlasblom: and then and then I I'm going to the trailer.
53:48
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
53:49
Petra Vlasblom: And when I do that, I don't want to go into the trailer
53:53
immediately, Lee, but I start like, five or six meters in front of the trailer.
53:59
Mm-hmm.
53:59
And I ask him one step forward and I said, oh, beautiful.
54:03
Okay, go backwards again.
54:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
54:05
Petra Vlasblom: And I ask him a little bit, oh, one step forward.
54:08
Oh, beautiful.
54:10
Go backwards again.
54:11
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
54:11
Petra Vlasblom: Not because some of the method, natural horsemanship
54:15
methods use the backup as a punishment.
54:19
I don't use it as a punishment.
54:21
So I re reward the horse and I said, it's beautiful.
54:25
You can go backwards.
54:27
And what I'm doing with that is I, I create a, a safe space.
54:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
54:32
Petra Vlasblom: And I and, and I I move the safe space, safe
54:38
space a little bit forward to the, to the ramp of the trailer.
54:43
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
54:43
Petra Vlasblom: So what I'm doing is I make a very safe situation with the horse.
54:49
And when the horse trust me enough, it's okay to go one step forward,
54:54
two steps backwards, three step forwards, one step backwards, and
54:58
then we are going to like a yo-yo.
55:00
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
55:01
Petra Vlasblom: In and out of the trailer.
55:02
And and constantly, constantly, I make contact with the horse.
55:07
So it's very, very important that there will be contact and I'm
55:13
talking to the horse all the time.
55:17
And then,
55:17
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I've seen you work.
55:18
And by the way, for the people watching and listening, one of the
55:22
reasons I was convinced about Petra was she came to visit us and we have
55:27
a horse, it's not, doesn't belong to us, but who lives on the property.
55:31
And we had not yet done much with it.
55:36
And it was a tricky horse to catch.
55:39
And we had in our minds said, you know, we probably should get around
55:44
to doing a little more with this horse, but we're kind of busy.
55:47
And Petra's there say, okay, Petra, why don't you go and do your thing
55:51
with that horse, because it would be really useful for us to watch.
55:55
And what I want to say to the people listening to this or watching was
56:00
the way in which Petra used her voice was so unmistakably, reassuring
56:13
and also unmistakably directed.
56:16
That horse that the horse became very curious about.
56:22
Petra and Petra made friends with the horse from a distance in a
56:30
way that was very clear as if she was sort of an old friend.
56:34
Seeing that, seeing another old friend from across the pub,
56:39
I'm like, Hey, how's it going?
56:41
You know?
56:41
But without trying to make that person, pulling that person by
56:46
the arm to come over, and I was watching, I thought, that's cool.
56:51
And so what happened was, of course the horse became interested in Petra and
56:56
at a certain point approached Petra.
56:59
And then there was a very gradual process of Petra reaching out or
57:06
letting the horse sniff, but not asking the horse to be caught at all until
57:11
the horse basically caught itself.
57:14
And then Petra would then catch the horse and let it go, and
57:18
catch the horse and let it go, and put the Holter half on and then.
57:22
Take it off.
57:22
And, and the horse became so like, well, are you gonna catch me then?
57:27
And Petra was like, well I dunno, we're kind of hanging out, aren't we?
57:30
And constantly addressing the horse by name, Eddie.
57:33
Ah, Eddie, you know, and the way in which he said, Eddie, suddenly
57:35
I was like, I wanna be Eddie.
57:37
I want someone using my name like that.
57:40
And eventually the horse kind of just shoves its nose into the Holter
57:46
and it's like, you are taking me.
57:48
And then you still took the Holter off and said, well, I dunno, Eddie, I, I
57:52
dunno if that's really what you want.
57:53
And, and you did that over,
57:56
I want to say these things think that you always think they're going
58:01
on for longer than they are, but I'd say it was about 12 minutes perhaps.
58:05
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
58:06
Rupert Isaacson: And I can tell you Petra, that that horse is very easy to catch now.
58:13
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
58:13
Rupert Isaacson: It translated ever.
58:15
So I just want the listeners to know that we are not talking
58:18
about some abstract here.
58:20
That there's a reason why I wanted her on the show.
58:22
And we, and we're going to come in a minute to her recommendations for your
58:29
staff, your people, your volunteers, particularly your volunteers in
58:34
your therapeutic context to how they can improve, massively improve
58:39
the situation with the horses.
58:40
Because we all know that one of the real problems in the therapeutic
58:44
riding sphere is that most people have to rely on volunteers.
58:51
And often there can end up being negative dynamics between
58:55
the volunteers and the horses.
58:56
I have seen this so many times, particularly in centers where
59:02
the horses are living in stables, not outside, not in herds.
59:06
And they're bodily and emotional needs and pains are not really being addressed.
59:13
They're just going round and round the arena and their job is to be quiet.
59:16
And so they end up taking this pain and frustration out on the
59:21
volunteers and the handlers.
59:23
They're often good with the kids, but yeah.
59:26
So I think we all have seen, we all know that this is chronic.
59:29
We all within the industry.
59:31
So, but let's go back to this nighttime farm yard.
59:35
Okay.
59:35
So now you've moved yourself, your safe, the horse's safe space towards, and
59:41
now perhaps to the ramp of the trailer.
59:43
Now what?
59:45
Petra Vlasblom: It's the same as with Eddie.
59:47
Rupert because when I, when I put on the halter and I'm finished,
59:52
he didn't learn anything.
59:54
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
59:54
Petra Vlasblom: In the 12 minutes I work with him I make like, I make it like
1:00:00
I make him curious what are you doing?
1:00:02
And I make it fun.
1:00:04
When I work with horses, I will, will translate.
1:00:09
No no, not translate.
1:00:11
When I work with horses, I want to have a horse that he
1:00:15
didn't want to go like Eddie.
1:00:17
He, he wanted, didn't want to be catched, he didn't want to
1:00:21
halter on after 12 minutes.
1:00:23
He only wanted to be catched and wanted to halter on.
1:00:26
And that's the same with with the trailer.
1:00:29
When I'm finished, the horse only wants to get into the trailer.
1:00:32
He doesn't want the trailer out anymore.
1:00:35
Rupert Isaacson: So everyone will be wondering, because we all have
1:00:39
our own experiences with this.
1:00:42
There's always that moment, you know, when the, the, you're trailering a
1:00:47
difficult horse and you're like, okay, this is the experience we're having.
1:00:53
I learned very early, don't resist it.
1:00:57
Rather say to yourself, this is the experience we're having.
1:01:00
This is okay.
1:01:02
And if we are here for a long time, well, we like being with horses,
1:01:06
so here we are with a horse.
1:01:10
And to try not to have a time pressure, we must get home by this day.
1:01:16
Yeah.
1:01:16
But sometimes time pressures are there even if you don't want them.
1:01:21
So we all know there's that golden moment when the horse goes in.
1:01:26
Yeah.
1:01:26
And we're like, oh, thank God.
1:01:27
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:01:27
Close
1:01:28
Rupert Isaacson: the gate.
1:01:28
Yes.
1:01:29
Close the gate.
1:01:29
Get that ramp up.
1:01:31
For you, what's the pattern when that golden moment normally happens?
1:01:41
Petra Vlasblom: I don't understand.
1:01:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:01:44
So you have a bit of a system.
1:01:47
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:01:48
Rupert Isaacson: So there's probably a part of you by now
1:01:51
that can more or less predict?
1:01:55
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:01:56
Oh yeah.
1:01:56
Again,
1:01:57
Rupert Isaacson: when and how it's going to happen.
1:01:58
Yeah.
1:01:59
Which I think would be very nice for people to hear because maybe
1:02:04
they don't have this same experience and therefore they don't have
1:02:07
the same confidence or faith.
1:02:11
Talk us through
1:02:14
when, okay.
1:02:17
There will be this little part of you that says, I think in
1:02:19
about five minutes he'll go in.
1:02:22
Yeah.
1:02:23
What changes in the horse's behavior to make you think,
1:02:28
ah, yeah, it's happening now.
1:02:30
Petra Vlasblom: Oh, I can see it.
1:02:31
So most of the time I can see it on the on the, yeah.
1:02:37
It's, it's like, a mental decision of the horse because the
1:02:41
horse refuses for a long time.
1:02:44
And then I, I know then if you.
1:02:48
If you look at the horse I can see on the, on the eyes and
1:02:53
on the, the head of the horse.
1:02:55
And when, when I'm with students, I always say, okay, look at this.
1:02:59
Look, look at the blinking of the eye.
1:03:01
Look at the ears.
1:03:03
Now he's thinking and he's going to make a choice.
1:03:06
And most of the time he make the choice, no, I'm not going into the trailer.
1:03:11
But within like a few minutes, he will make a choice.
1:03:16
And, and yeah, if you, I have a lot of video material, Rupert.
1:03:23
And once, once we met each other, you said, what are you doing different?
1:03:27
And I said, yeah, you don't have to.
1:03:30
You, you shouldn't listen to my to what I'm saying, but you should should see.
1:03:36
Yeah.
1:03:36
But
1:03:36
Rupert Isaacson: we are talking, so
1:03:38
Petra Vlasblom: frankly
1:03:38
Rupert Isaacson: you have to say something.
1:03:40
Petra Vlasblom: May maybe it's possible to, for the listeners to, to, to show
1:03:44
some videos later on or, or on the social
1:03:47
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:03:47
But you can describe you, you have, you can describe the experience.
1:03:51
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:03:52
Yeah.
1:03:53
It's, it's possible to see when a horse is thinking about, okay, I,
1:03:58
am I doing it or am I doing it?
1:04:00
Not, and when he says, when the horse decides I'm, I'm not doing it, it's clear.
1:04:07
But you can see when, when the horse is on a cho moment, moment of moment of choice.
1:04:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:04:14
Petra Vlasblom: And that's the, the, the most interesting part.
1:04:18
And what is very important when the horse is in depth part of the training.
1:04:24
You don't force him, you don't ask him.
1:04:26
He has to make the, his own choice.
1:04:29
Choice.
1:04:30
Rupert Isaacson: Here is a question at that point where he makes
1:04:32
the choice to go in the trailer.
1:04:34
Do you close the door?
1:04:36
Or do you say, actually, let's go out of the trailer again?
1:04:39
Petra Vlasblom: Yes, yes.
1:04:40
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:04:40
Petra Vlasblom: And then the owner, he, he gets mad.
1:04:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:04:44
Do you tell the owner in advance Yeah, this is what I'm going to do.
1:04:48
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:04:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:04:48
Otherwise, so
1:04:49
Petra Vlasblom: then
1:04:49
Rupert Isaacson: you,
1:04:49
Petra Vlasblom: otherwise, otherwise I'm not helping.
1:04:51
Yes.
1:04:51
Because then I, then I am yeah.
1:04:54
Then I, I'm not honest to the horse.
1:04:56
Sure.
1:04:57
Because the horse is not ready yet for closing the ramp.
1:05:00
Rupert Isaacson: So when you arrive, when they say, Hey, Petra, will you
1:05:03
come, do you say on the phone, listen, when this horse goes in the first time,
1:05:09
I will actually take him out again.
1:05:11
Are you okay with that?
1:05:12
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:05:13
Rupert Isaacson: Or they say, no, I'm not okay with that because I need to get home.
1:05:15
Yeah.
1:05:16
To look after my sick mother or something.
1:05:18
But in general, you inform the owner it's going to be like this.
1:05:23
Okay.
1:05:23
So then the horse goes in the trailer the first time and then you surprise him.
1:05:26
You say, okay, you can go out now again.
1:05:28
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:05:29
But to be honest Rupert, I'm some horses some horses, they they
1:05:35
have, they need time to think about and to make the right decision.
1:05:40
Mm-hmm.
1:05:40
So the, the, the, the, the training is, is taking a little bit more
1:05:45
time and it's, it's depending on the character of the horse.
1:05:49
Yeah.
1:05:49
Because I, I look at the character of the horse to see what kind
1:05:54
of training methods he needs.
1:05:56
Right.
1:05:57
Because some horses I will close it.
1:06:00
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:00
Okay.
1:06:00
Yeah.
1:06:00
Okay.
1:06:01
Petra Vlasblom: But not the angry ones.
1:06:03
Not the the sensible ones.
1:06:05
Because they will, they will kick, they will out.
1:06:08
Sensible,
1:06:09
Rupert Isaacson: sensitive.
1:06:10
Yes.
1:06:10
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:06:10
They will come out the trailer.
1:06:12
They, they, that, that is very dangerous because, because they
1:06:16
can get an accident because
1:06:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:06:19
Petra Vlasblom: They are in panic.
1:06:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:06:21
Petra Vlasblom: But there are characters that says, okay, this
1:06:24
is like a no nonsense character.
1:06:26
And
1:06:26
Right.
1:06:27
Petra Vlasblom: Horse says, I, yeah.
1:06:29
I'm not afraid, I'm not angry, but I don't, don't want to go into the trailer.
1:06:34
Right.
1:06:34
So the more easier characters that's, that's okay to close it.
1:06:39
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:39
Yeah.
1:06:39
So now you're dealing with a horse.
1:06:40
They're not the easy character, but they've gone in the first time.
1:06:43
Yeah.
1:06:44
Then you take them out again straight away.
1:06:46
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:06:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
1:06:46
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
1:06:46
Reward.
1:06:48
Lucky won Olympics.
1:06:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:06:50
Petra Vlasblom: Reward.
1:06:51
But very, very good.
1:06:53
I'm so proud of you.
1:06:54
And now we are going for a second time.
1:06:56
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:56
Petra Vlasblom: And what you can do once, you can do twice.
1:07:00
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:07:01
Petra Vlasblom: And it's, it's for me as a trainer, but it's also for the horse.
1:07:05
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:07:06
Petra Vlasblom: And
1:07:07
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:07:07
Normally.
1:07:10
Do you have more or less of a pattern of the number of times, more or less,
1:07:17
that you might take the horse outta the trailer again, in that situation?
1:07:21
Is it
1:07:22
Petra Vlasblom: Oh yeah.
1:07:23
Rupert Isaacson: More or less, five more or less?
1:07:25
10.
1:07:26
Petra Vlasblom: No, in, in a situation when somebody wants to go home and
1:07:30
there's, but for me it's more important not the the counting of the, of the times.
1:07:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:07:37
But there, nonetheless, there are patterns that emerge.
1:07:39
Petra Vlasblom: For me it's more or less,
1:07:40
Rupert Isaacson: is it more than 500?
1:07:42
Is it less than three?
1:07:43
No,
1:07:44
Petra Vlasblom: five.
1:07:45
Between five and 10, I think.
1:07:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:07:46
Okay.
1:07:47
That's rational.
1:07:48
Petra Vlasblom: But for me it's important that the horse he's making the choice to
1:07:53
get in because a horse that is making the choice, the choice itself to get into the
1:07:59
trailer, will not have resistance when you are, are riding with the trailer.
1:08:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:08:05
Petra Vlasblom: And the horse that is forced is always angry
1:08:08
scared sensible and mm-hmm.
1:08:11
And that can be di dangerous.
1:08:14
Rupert Isaacson: It can
1:08:14
Petra Vlasblom: absolutely.
1:08:15
Horses came out of the roof.
1:08:17
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:08:19
Yeah.
1:08:19
Petra Vlasblom: Because they are forced and they are and
1:08:22
they close the, the trailer.
1:08:25
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting to me.
1:08:26
I was working with a horse today.
1:08:28
That at a, at a different place.
1:08:32
Who decided he did not want to go into the arena?
1:08:36
Petra Vlasblom: Oh, no.
1:08:36
Rupert Isaacson: And I said, it's not a problem, let's do our work outside here.
1:08:42
But I think probably at a certain point he will probably go in.
1:08:46
But it's really okay with me with what we're going to do now because
1:08:52
honestly, I can do it right here.
1:08:55
And you know, the work that we usually do, these old circular dressage patterns
1:09:01
on the ground, not on the horse.
1:09:03
So, and they do some interesting neurological change in the horse's brain.
1:09:09
We know this.
1:09:10
And it was the second time with the horse and he, he was
1:09:13
actually, he's a very nice horse.
1:09:15
And, but he was just saying, okay, I'm big and I'm not gonna do it.
1:09:20
So I just said, that's fine.
1:09:21
Let's just do our thing here.
1:09:23
And then he is like, oh, well then I'm going to, you know.
1:09:28
Be bossy to you about.
1:09:30
I said, well, that's okay.
1:09:31
You can be bossy to me, but can you just be bossy to me, around
1:09:33
me in this pattern, please?
1:09:36
And oh, good boy, just like you.
1:09:38
And then lots of, you know, love lots of hugs and dah dah.
1:09:41
And, you know, we do some patterns and we do some patterns and we do some patterns.
1:09:44
And then I said, do you want to go in?
1:09:46
No, he doesn't want to go.
1:09:47
I, okay, well no problem.
1:09:48
We can do the workout here.
1:09:49
It doesn't matter.
1:09:50
We can, you know, da da, da.
1:09:51
And then perhaps after the, it was I think after I would say 20
1:09:57
minutes and I'd actually forgotten that I really particularly even
1:10:02
wanted to go into the arena.
1:10:04
And then I saw the door, I said, oh, let's just give it a try.
1:10:06
And of course, he walked in.
1:10:08
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:10:08
Rupert Isaacson: And I, I find that it's often that giving up of attachment.
1:10:14
When I'm starting to train a horse in anything, I have this
1:10:18
little thing I say to myself, I say, oh, it'll take two years.
1:10:23
It will probably take about three weeks.
1:10:25
But if I say to myself, it's a little trick in my brain, if I
1:10:29
say to myself, ah, it'll take two years, then something in me relaxes.
1:10:32
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:10:33
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm like, ah, you know, it's okay.
1:10:35
And I know that even though it's a trick on myself.
1:10:39
Something in my body language changes, something in my emotional
1:10:44
frequency changes and the horse picks up on it and relaxes.
1:10:49
And then ironically it goes faster.
1:10:51
But I still have to tell myself this.
1:10:54
I have another trick I do when I'm jumping and I'll come into a fence and
1:10:59
I'm feeling a little bit scared or I can't really quite see the good place
1:11:06
to jump to take off, but I'm committed.
1:11:11
I start looking at the sky and I say, oh, I wonder what kind of cloud that is.
1:11:16
What weather system is that?
1:11:18
Or what kind of bird?
1:11:19
Oh, that's, oh, that's a sparrow hook.
1:11:20
Oh, that's interesting.
1:11:21
And the fence comes to me and then, oh, we're okay.
1:11:25
And I know intellectually that I am tricking myself, but it works because
1:11:32
my attention goes away from the problem.
1:11:35
I suppose.
1:11:36
I, I stopped feeding the problem with my attention and the problem
1:11:41
often tends to resolve itself.
1:11:44
And I think I wondered where this came from because I was not always like this.
1:11:49
And I realized it was with autism that I realized that with all, you know,
1:11:54
particularly the nonverbal younger kids, you cannot have any attachment.
1:12:00
And initially in the early days of horse boy.
1:12:05
Because we had been, you know, because there had been success with my son,
1:12:09
naturally people and, and me hoped for the same success with others.
1:12:15
And most of the time it was there, but it was there mostly when I said
1:12:23
to the parent, usually, I honestly don't know if we can get anywhere
1:12:29
here, but what we can do is have a very nice time together that we can do.
1:12:39
And sure we know that.
1:12:40
We now know the neuroscience and, okay, okay, okay, but
1:12:44
that's still not a guarantee.
1:12:47
Are you okay with that?
1:12:49
And then the parents saying to me, that's why I asked you, do you say to
1:12:54
the horse owner before you go, are you okay with the fact that A, the horse may
1:12:59
not go in and b, if he goes in, I will take him out again at least a few times
1:13:07
probably, because this will be better.
1:13:12
Yeah.
1:13:12
And then the, the owner, the horse owner has some choice.
1:13:15
They have, yeah.
1:13:16
At some agency they have a participation.
1:13:20
They're not just waiting for you to do your thing, solve the problem.
1:13:25
And then we're working together with partners.
1:13:28
Okay, so here's my third question before we go into the therapeutic context.
1:13:33
Sometimes, occasionally the horse, I'm sure does not go into the trailer.
1:13:39
So when you walk into that yard at midnight, I presume you have a plan
1:13:46
in your mind for what is plan C if the horse doesn't go in at all, like,
1:13:52
and we need the horse to stay here for the night and we need to make a plan.
1:13:57
And then what do we do?
1:13:58
Do we leave him with the trailer?
1:13:59
Do we take the trailer away and home?
1:14:02
Do we keep the trailer?
1:14:04
Do we make a little field for him, you know, with an electric fence, which
1:14:09
includes the trailer with the ramp down.
1:14:12
Do we feed him there in the morning?
1:14:13
What do we do?
1:14:14
So has that happened?
1:14:16
And if so, what did you do?
1:14:17
What was the plan?
1:14:19
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it, it did happen.
1:14:20
Not, not so much.
1:14:21
I maybe in all those years, once or twice,
1:14:24
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:14:25
Petra Vlasblom: The horse.
1:14:26
Yeah.
1:14:26
Rupert Isaacson: But there's always that exception, right?
1:14:28
Yeah,
1:14:28
Petra Vlasblom: of course, of
1:14:29
Rupert Isaacson: course.
1:14:29
So what did you do in that exception?
1:14:31
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
1:14:37
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
1:14:42
of dressage training.
1:14:43
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:14:52
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:14:58
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:15:05
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:15:08
Intrigued?
1:15:09
Like to know more?
1:15:10
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:15:15
Check out the free introduction course.
1:15:17
Take it from there.
1:15:18
Petra Vlasblom: In, in one of the two I, the, the horse went
1:15:23
into the stable because there were only stables over there.
1:15:26
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:15:26
Petra Vlasblom: And I went the other day and to, to load him, and
1:15:29
then we had a little bit more time.
1:15:32
There was no stress.
1:15:33
It wasn't dark, so it was much easier.
1:15:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:15:36
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:15:37
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:15:38
I think, yeah.
1:15:39
And, and, and, and you left the trailer there, or the
1:15:43
trailer went away and came back?
1:15:46
Petra Vlasblom: I don't know.
1:15:48
I thought it was I, I don't know.
1:15:50
I, I think we left it there.
1:15:53
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:15:53
Yeah.
1:15:54
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:15:55
Rupert Isaacson: Intuitively it would seem to me a good idea to leave it there.
1:15:59
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:15:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:16:00
But yeah, what do I know?
1:16:02
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:16:03
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so the reason I wanted to ask that question
1:16:08
is because I always want to ask myself before I work with a horse or before
1:16:14
I work with a person, what's my plan going to be if I'm not successful?
1:16:23
Because if I'm attached to success, we all know that's not a good thing
1:16:31
and success might take a short time or it might take a very long time.
1:16:38
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:16:39
Rupert Isaacson: And it could be that the success actually does not happen with me.
1:16:44
It could be that I am simply a part of the journey and somebody else is
1:16:50
going to have the breakthrough moment.
1:16:52
You know?
1:16:54
So I have to ask myself, am I okay with this?
1:16:57
Particularly when I'm working with a human, because I am emotionally attached.
1:17:04
I'm more emotionally attached with a human than I am with a horse.
1:17:08
With a horse.
1:17:09
If I know, probably at some point it will work because people have been training
1:17:16
horses for since the late stone age.
1:17:19
And you know, most of the time it sort of happens.
1:17:22
But when it's somebody's child, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very different thing.
1:17:26
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:17:27
Rupert Isaacson: And and humans are tricky.
1:17:30
So, in a funny way, I guess what I'm saying is I have to let myself off
1:17:36
the hook and tell myself, this isn't some contest to show that my method
1:17:44
works or that I am a good practitioner.
1:17:49
It's really okay if I'm just some small part of this child's journey
1:17:54
or this person's journey, but I want to be a positive part of that.
1:17:59
So at the very least, what do I need to do?
1:18:03
So for me, I will engage in curiosity, what does this person love?
1:18:09
And can I engage in that activity somehow?
1:18:15
Even if, for example, it's a computer game, we can't go into the computer,
1:18:19
but I can print the characters from the computer and laminate them and
1:18:27
hang them in the trees and walk underneath them and talk about them.
1:18:31
I can do that.
1:18:32
You know, I can find a way to engage.
1:18:35
And if I can find something that the horse likes, I can go with this.
1:18:41
Alright, so now let's move it to the therapeutic context.
1:18:46
So let's say I was running a therapeutic horse business and conflicts were arising
1:19:00
between some volunteers and the horses.
1:19:06
And these volunteers perhaps don't have so much horse experience, or
1:19:13
they actually have a lot of horse experience, but it's still going wrong.
1:19:21
And maybe there is one person who has a lot of horse experience and they are
1:19:28
just being too controlling, too bossy.
1:19:32
And maybe there's somebody with no horse experience and they're being too passive
1:19:39
or the other way around.
1:19:43
I need to come.
1:19:44
I'm Petra.
1:19:46
I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I don't, I, I don't want to insult you by saying
1:19:50
you look like me, but I'm now inside Petra and so I'm going, I'm Petra.
1:19:55
I go to this place and I realize that I have a complex situation in
1:19:59
front of me because I have these differing human personalities.
1:20:04
Some of them actually know quite a lot about horses, but there's still a problem.
1:20:09
Others don't know so much about the horses.
1:20:12
There's a problem, but perhaps they're more open.
1:20:17
But I must serve all of these people, and I have one day to do it because
1:20:25
the barn owner ha it's a nonprofit.
1:20:29
They can only afford me to come in for one day.
1:20:33
Or you're doing it on a scholarship, but you can't give too many.
1:20:37
So you're, you're going in for a day, maybe on your own time.
1:20:41
Talk us through that day.
1:20:43
Petra Vlasblom: Okay.
1:20:44
I think it's, it's the same as training horses because it's all about motivating
1:20:50
and stimulating for the wanted behavior.
1:20:55
So I think you have to find a way how to stimulate and motivate all,
1:21:02
all the, all the all the people.
1:21:05
So, and I think that the, the one who it's like, like training horses.
1:21:11
The one who is having the, who's like the leader of the group, the most experienced.
1:21:18
I think the, it's, it's important to, to show her that you are
1:21:24
listening to to her or him or her.
1:21:28
Is it a woman or a man?
1:21:30
Rupert Isaacson: Good question.
1:21:31
It's probably more likely to be a woman just because it's
1:21:34
98% female driven the industry.
1:21:37
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:21:37
So it's very important that you, you will see her as, as the leader because
1:21:42
she's, she's probably the toughest one to train or to motivate or to stimulate.
1:21:49
So, but, and, and then you, you can, when she, she's like, when you have a
1:21:56
better connection a better understanding, then you can get the rest of the group.
1:22:03
But I think it's, it's always important.
1:22:05
The, the one who's the most resistant in the group is the one who has
1:22:11
the power to, to change the energy and to change the environment.
1:22:17
So, I always, because I, I do the same.
1:22:20
I, I, I have, I have schooling, I have very experienced students,
1:22:26
and I also have like, students who, who write on a writing school.
1:22:30
And that's a major difference.
1:22:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it is.
1:22:33
Petra Vlasblom: But for me, there's no difference.
1:22:35
They are equal for me.
1:22:37
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:22:39
When you need to win the confidence of the dominant one, how do you do that?
1:22:44
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:22:45
I, I try to show that, okay, I will, listening to you, I see you, I understand
1:22:52
you, but you are not the only one.
1:22:54
We have to do it with the whole group.
1:22:56
So we are looking for a way that's good for everyone because we need each other.
1:23:03
It's like a herd.
1:23:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
1:23:05
Petra Vlasblom: we know each other.
1:23:05
So if you are not satisfied with this position, we, you are not satisfied.
1:23:10
We need each other.
1:23:11
So we need each other, and we all have our, our own task.
1:23:18
And we work, we have to work together.
1:23:20
Rupert Isaacson: So would you do any specific exercises with these people?
1:23:24
Petra Vlasblom: Oh
1:23:25
yeah.
1:23:25
Maybe.
1:23:26
I, I,
1:23:28
I don't know.
1:23:29
I,
1:23:30
Rupert Isaacson: well, let me, let me give you, perhaps it's
1:23:31
better if I give you a situation.
1:23:33
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:23:34
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:23:34
So let's say it's a standard therapeutic riding place where they are leading
1:23:42
children on horses, and the horses are starting to bite the handlers.
1:23:48
Petra Vlasblom: Oh,
1:23:49
Rupert Isaacson: this is a normal thing in many places.
1:23:54
You are there for the day.
1:23:55
What are you doing?
1:23:56
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:23:57
Okay.
1:23:58
And the horses are starting to bite.
1:24:01
Rupert Isaacson: The handlers, the leaders, not the kids.
1:24:03
Yeah.
1:24:04
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:24:04
Okay.
1:24:05
Okay.
1:24:05
Okay.
1:24:06
Yeah.
1:24:06
Then it's important to to, to get clear why are the horses biting
1:24:12
and are they biting everyone or just a, a, a certain person?
1:24:17
So, I would, I would, would have, have more.
1:24:24
I, I would like to have more information about which horses buys.
1:24:29
Do they bite everyone?
1:24:31
Do they bite only one or two or three of the people who's working there?
1:24:37
So, yeah, and, and maybe
1:24:39
Rupert Isaacson: let's say they bite only two or three.
1:24:41
Petra Vlasblom: Okay.
1:24:43
Okay.
1:24:44
Yeah.
1:24:44
And then you can, you couldn't have who?
1:24:47
Look at, okay, those two or three, are they not clear enough to the horse?
1:24:52
Are they insecure?
1:24:54
Are they doing something that is knowing the horse?
1:24:58
It's, it's all possible,
1:25:00
Rupert Isaacson: right?
1:25:00
But
1:25:00
Petra Vlasblom: it's like a puzzle,
1:25:02
Rupert Isaacson: let's say.
1:25:03
Then you, you look at that and you realize
1:25:08
it's all three of those things that they are not clear.
1:25:12
They are annoying the horse, but perhaps they don't know they're annoying.
1:25:17
The horse.
1:25:18
And I forget what the first one was that you said.
1:25:20
But perhaps let's just go with those two things.
1:25:24
They're annoying the horse and they're not clear.
1:25:26
Yeah.
1:25:26
So now what?
1:25:27
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:25:28
Now may maybe and not, and it's separate then from the the work
1:25:34
with the children on, on the horses.
1:25:36
But then I, I should give them like a, a learning lesson about
1:25:41
body language and be clear to horse because maybe they are not clear.
1:25:46
They are insecure and the horse is like doesn't get the
1:25:51
leading that he wants to have.
1:25:54
Okay.
1:25:55
And so then you can change the relationship between the human and
1:25:59
the horse, and you can get the people more secure about what they could
1:26:06
do when the horse is going to bite.
1:26:08
Because if you don't know is if nobody tells you what to do,
1:26:12
then you are standing there and you, you get bitten all the time.
1:26:17
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:26:18
What would you tell them to do?
1:26:20
Petra Vlasblom: I, I should tell them to to work on on their.
1:26:25
On their body language.
1:26:27
Like, when you are insecure, you, you are mostly, like, your
1:26:30
shoulders are a little bit lower.
1:26:32
You are not standing standing up, up upright.
1:26:37
So I, I would give them some lessons about body, body language
1:26:42
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
1:26:42
Petra Vlasblom: And also about being clear to the horse.
1:26:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:26:46
Petra Vlasblom: And maybe make a little bit more contact with the horse
1:26:50
before they're going to work together.
1:26:52
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:26:53
Petra Vlasblom: Because maybe they, the horse is settled, there's and they're
1:26:57
standing there, there's going a, a child on the horse and there's no, no connection
1:27:03
between the horse and the leader.
1:27:07
So,
1:27:07
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
1:27:07
Maybe,
1:27:08
Petra Vlasblom: maybe
1:27:08
Rupert Isaacson: that's
1:27:08
Petra Vlasblom: something to work with.
1:27:10
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:27:11
And I think people do get put in this position.
1:27:14
Now, let's say it's not necessarily something that the handler is doing, but
1:27:21
let's say the horse is sour because it's not living in a way that is good for
1:27:30
its mental health or emotional health.
1:27:34
So let's say we, I often see this situation, the horse is stable
1:27:39
too long, not getting enough time outside, not getting enough time
1:27:43
with friends despite the fact that.
1:27:46
So many podcasts like this talk about, oh, horses need the three F's, friends,
1:27:51
forage and freedom or whatever.
1:27:54
We all know that this is not actually what you see most of the time.
1:27:59
And horses that are standing in stables a lot also, particularly
1:28:04
if they're older, often are stiff.
1:28:06
They're often have some pain just like we would.
1:28:11
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:28:11
Rupert Isaacson: And then there's mental and emotional stress that comes from
1:28:15
just not being in the right environment.
1:28:19
It's very difficult to tell a stable owner this.
1:28:25
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:28:25
Rupert Isaacson: But
1:28:29
if that is the root of the problem and we can see that there is a, a pattern
1:28:33
in the stable because the horse is just not happy physically, mentally,
1:28:42
how do you deal with that situation?
1:28:45
Because this is, that's a difficult one, because you're dealing, you've got to try,
1:28:49
be sensitive to the economic situation.
1:28:54
These people will say, well, we haven't got space.
1:28:58
We can't afford space.
1:29:01
We have to have the horses do many, many sessions because.
1:29:06
This is how the money comes in.
1:29:08
You know, all of these reasons will be put forward.
1:29:11
It's more convenient to have the horse there and the stable, because he's clean.
1:29:16
I can catch him.
1:29:17
He's not covered in mud et cetera, et cetera.
1:29:20
But you can see Petra goes in.
1:29:23
Yeah.
1:29:23
But listen, we have to make a change here if we want a change
1:29:27
in the behavior of the horses.
1:29:29
How do you handle this?
1:29:30
Because it's, this is tricky.
1:29:32
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it is.
1:29:33
It is.
1:29:34
But it's always in my job because sometimes the situation
1:29:39
for the horse is not the best.
1:29:41
Mm-hmm.
1:29:42
And I cannot change all the, all the owners of the horses.
1:29:47
And you cannot you cannot decide where because maybe they don't have the
1:29:53
money, they don't have the possibility.
1:29:55
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:29:55
And, and one can't just point out a problem.
1:29:57
I always feel that if you're going to identify a problem,
1:30:00
you do have to offer a solution.
1:30:02
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:30:02
Yeah.
1:30:03
And it's the same.
1:30:04
Sometimes I see a horse that has to go into the trailer, like a
1:30:08
horse that is like, one meter 75.
1:30:12
Mm-hmm.
1:30:13
And he's go, he, they have trailer, the all the ones, they are two 20 high.
1:30:19
Mm-hmm.
1:30:19
And then there's no space for the, for the, for the neck
1:30:23
and for the, for the Hess.
1:30:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:30:26
Petra Vlasblom: And then the owner says, yes, but my o my my o other
1:30:29
horse is, is even a little bit bigger.
1:30:32
There's no problem at all.
1:30:34
And I cannot decide for the, for the owner of the horse, Hey, you
1:30:39
have to buy an, a big trailer.
1:30:42
But I can say it and I can say, you are paying me.
1:30:46
You are spending a lot of money time and energy to, to teach your horse
1:30:51
to get to, in, into the trailer.
1:30:54
But if you using this trailer, the problem will return.
1:30:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:30:59
Petra Vlasblom: And then it's a waste of money.
1:31:01
Then you better sell this trailer and you have money to hire a trailer
1:31:07
that is a little bit be if you don't have the money to, to to to buy a new
1:31:12
one, you, you have money to rent it.
1:31:14
But you can, you can you can share some ideas.
1:31:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, exactly.
1:31:20
I think this is what it comes down to.
1:31:23
You know, so when I find that I'm in a place where the living conditions
1:31:28
of the horse are not ideal, then usually I start looking for solutions.
1:31:35
And as you know, one of my first solutions is always what
1:31:40
we call crazy time in my Yeah,
1:31:42
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
1:31:42
Sys,
1:31:42
Rupert Isaacson: you know, and all that means is playing in an arena,
1:31:46
hopefully more than one horse maybe up to four horses, if you have
1:31:52
the space, a really big arena.
1:31:54
It can be more, but it's usually four is about the max.
1:31:58
And often that involves free jumping, but it doesn't have to and not all horses can.
1:32:06
So, but it involves going through obstacles on the ground without a
1:32:11
handler playing and interacting with each other and letting off steam.
1:32:17
And we find that horses that are not able to have so much outside
1:32:24
time together benefit from what we call crazy time immediately.
1:32:28
And then I realize, yeah, I have to offer.
1:32:31
The owner an economic solution as well.
1:32:35
So I say, okay.
1:32:36
And I did this in our own when we were keeping our horses in a stable in Germany
1:32:41
for a few years, which was not ideal.
1:32:43
This is where crazy time really saved us.
1:32:46
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:32:46
Rupert Isaacson: And then I realized that the kids that
1:32:48
were coming out, they loved it.
1:32:50
So they would help us do the crazy time and then we could say, okay, look, the
1:32:55
side of the arena, the long side, this is 60 meters or 50 meters or whatever.
1:33:01
Let's check though.
1:33:03
So now we walk it.
1:33:04
Okay, how many steps did you get?
1:33:06
How many steps did you get?
1:33:07
Okay.
1:33:08
Okay.
1:33:08
And how long did it take?
1:33:10
Oh, we didn't time it.
1:33:11
Okay, let's time Petra.
1:33:13
Okay.
1:33:13
How long does it take for Petra to get down the arena?
1:33:15
Oh, maybe Petra can go a little faster.
1:33:18
Come on Petra.
1:33:18
And this is before we even bring the horses in, right?
1:33:21
And then we say, okay, how fast is Petra?
1:33:24
Oh, I don't know.
1:33:25
But it took her five seconds, 10 seconds to go from one end
1:33:31
of the 50 meters to the other.
1:33:33
Here look, we get the cell phone out.
1:33:35
We can do distance over time.
1:33:39
That speed.
1:33:40
We can work out Petra speed.
1:33:41
Now let's do the dog Now.
1:33:43
Hold on.
1:33:44
We can build these jumps for the horses.
1:33:47
Now we have some team building or, but we can measure how high are they?
1:33:51
How heavy are they, what is the distance?
1:33:55
So there's some little bits of math coming in there as well.
1:33:58
And then we make them jump small so Petra can go over Is Petra
1:34:04
slower or faster over the jumps?
1:34:06
Now we send the kid that, then everyone's done some maths there, had
1:34:11
a fun, they've laughed at each other.
1:34:12
Then we bring in the horses and we do the same thing.
1:34:15
And then we're starting to learn horsemanship.
1:34:17
And so, and then I'd say, look, maybe this is a school group and maybe that school
1:34:22
group is paying you 300 euros to be there.
1:34:25
You just met the needs of the horses and the needs of the kids at the same time.
1:34:31
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:34:31
Rupert Isaacson: So there's no financial loss or pressure or stress
1:34:36
to give the horses what they need.
1:34:38
So now we can't say this is impossible.
1:34:40
Petra Vlasblom: Mm-hmm.
1:34:41
Rupert Isaacson: And maybe we can do five sessions of crazy time in a day.
1:34:48
And sometimes the horses are full of energy and sometimes less, but they're
1:34:54
going to interact with each other and have curiosity and problems to solve.
1:35:01
And there's one solution there.
1:35:04
Can we do this?
1:35:06
But it took me a while to train myself to think in terms of these solutions.
1:35:14
And I think it wasn't until.
1:35:16
I was in the same position as,
1:35:20
Petra Vlasblom: yeah,
1:35:21
Rupert Isaacson: that person that I could put myself in their shoes when I was
1:35:25
living in Texas while we had a ranch.
1:35:28
You know?
1:35:29
So, and when I go and give talks at horse equine events, sometimes
1:35:37
I will hear people talking in a way that is making people feel
1:35:44
ashamed because they don't have the state of Wyoming as their backyard.
1:35:50
But the fact is, most people don't, you know?
1:35:52
So what are we gonna do for those solutions?
1:35:54
So, I presume you have to think in these terms as well, right?
1:35:58
Yeah,
1:35:59
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
1:35:59
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us some examples of, of creative solutions
1:36:04
you've come up with for people?
1:36:06
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:36:06
It's like, like the trailer or sometimes
1:36:09
yeah.
1:36:12
In, in, most of the time sport horses don't have play crazy times
1:36:17
with other horses because they are very scared for injuries.
1:36:21
Mm-hmm.
1:36:21
And that's so yeah.
1:36:23
That's a pity because yeah, a horse wants to have wants to have social
1:36:28
contact with the other horses.
1:36:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:36:30
Which often involves kicking each other.
1:36:32
It just does it, it's how horses are.
1:36:34
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:36:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
1:36:35
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
1:36:36
Rupert Isaacson: So what do you do in this situation?
1:36:38
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, I, yeah.
1:36:40
I always say that it, it should be better to give them some time together and but I
1:36:47
see it, there, there is, is a difference because 20 years ago they were all stable.
1:36:53
And I see now that much more people do have eDocs or meadows.
1:36:58
Hmm.
1:36:59
But in, in, in sports, you can see a lot of horses that are on their own, on the
1:37:04
meadow or, or in the paddock, and they can socialize over the over the fences.
1:37:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:37:11
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:37:11
But I, I really hope that and, and I see a lot of sports stables with
1:37:16
little Shetland ponies, so they can play with the sheron pony and Okay.
1:37:21
When they are injured by a Shetland pony, it's not so.
1:37:25
Worse than it's not so, yeah.
1:37:28
Dangerous for their,
1:37:29
Rupert Isaacson: and they can't kick the Shetland pony 'cause the Shetland
1:37:31
Pony's too quick like a terrier.
1:37:35
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:37:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:37:35
Petra Vlasblom: They can, can get under the line.
1:37:38
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but there, I think that's actually a really
1:37:40
good concrete example of a solution.
1:37:43
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:37:43
Rupert Isaacson: You know, so when I'm wearing my dressage hat, you know, I'm
1:37:47
also with people who have very expensive horses and they say, yes Rupert, we can't
1:37:53
put them out together because if they injure the horse, it's so expensive.
1:37:59
Or, you know, and whether you agree or disagree that any
1:38:04
horse should have a price.
1:38:06
Nonetheless, this is the reality.
1:38:07
So for example, that solution get a mini, get a Shetland.
1:38:13
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:38:13
Rupert Isaacson: Put it in there with him.
1:38:15
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:38:16
And it's also a horse.
1:38:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:38:18
Maybe get three Shetlands and then you've got one sport horse.
1:38:21
Crazy timing with three Shetlands going out in the paddock with three Shetlands.
1:38:26
Maybe that's your solution right there.
1:38:29
Yeah.
1:38:30
Plus they're easy to keep.
1:38:31
They're not expensive to feed.
1:38:33
Yeah.
1:38:34
I think it's just really important to have these, it, you might think, oh,
1:38:38
that's such a simple thing to say, but for many people who are facing
1:38:43
these questions, it's not obvious.
1:38:47
And sometimes a Petra coming along and saying, you know.
1:38:51
Get three Shetlands and the jobs of these Shetlands is to make these other horses
1:38:57
move a little bit and give them company.
1:39:00
That makes a lot of sense.
1:39:02
That's something that somebody could think, yeah, I could do that.
1:39:05
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah,
1:39:06
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
1:39:07
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
1:39:08
So, yeah, sometimes it's just be creative.
1:39:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:39:15
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:39:16
And, and problem solving is, is it, it's necessary that you are creative
1:39:21
because you can have a plan, but if the plan isn't working well, you,
1:39:26
you, you, you used to try other parts.
1:39:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:39:31
It's, it's an interesting one because you know, this, I come across this, and I
1:39:37
probably honestly do this myself in other situations where I know I have a problem,
1:39:44
but I don't really wanna make a change.
1:39:46
So I will say to somebody, I have this problem and I wanna make a change.
1:39:49
And then the person says to me, oh, well, Rupert, you could do this.
1:39:52
And, and I'm like, no, can't do that.
1:39:54
No, can't do that, can't do that.
1:39:55
You know, and then the other person is saying, well, but then why
1:39:59
are we having this conversation?
1:40:00
Why did you engage me?
1:40:03
Did you just engage me to vent your frustration and get more frustration?
1:40:13
Or do you genuinely want.
1:40:15
To change something, but you and I both know, or they could say this to
1:40:20
me, Rupert, you know, that you would not really like to still be having
1:40:26
this conversation in one year's time.
1:40:29
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:40:29
Rupert Isaacson: So something needs to change.
1:40:33
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:40:34
Rupert Isaacson: So if not these three things that we put forward, what?
1:40:40
I don't know.
1:40:42
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:40:42
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe I can't do anything.
1:40:44
Maybe this is just the way it has to be.
1:40:47
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:40:47
When, when I work with horses and owners of horses, they all,
1:40:53
they both have behavior pattern.
1:40:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:40:56
Petra Vlasblom: So the horse has a pattern how to react.
1:40:59
And the owner also has a pattern, the
1:41:02
Rupert Isaacson: devil, you know?
1:41:03
Yeah.
1:41:04
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:41:04
And they are it, it's, it's their way of interaction.
1:41:11
And when I'm working with a horse I, I always say it like on an easy way to
1:41:17
the owner, okay, this is your horse.
1:41:20
I'm going to ins the, the software on your horse is not the right software anymore.
1:41:25
He doesn't want to go to, what do you call it?
1:41:28
The, the, the trailer?
1:41:30
Yeah.
1:41:30
So you installed the wrong software.
1:41:33
No problem.
1:41:34
I'm here.
1:41:34
I'm going to install the right software.
1:41:37
So he, after I I'm finished, he will get into the trailer with a loose rope on
1:41:43
his own own choice, no problem anymore.
1:41:46
So I will install new software, but I have to teach you a little bit
1:41:51
about the new software because if you don't change, if you don't work
1:41:57
the same way like I'm working, you are going to load him next time.
1:42:02
And you are going to use the old software.
1:42:05
So the brain will, will use the, the, the the old parts to the nerve system.
1:42:12
So you are get the old
1:42:14
Rupert Isaacson: result
1:42:14
Petra Vlasblom: beha.
1:42:15
Yeah.
1:42:15
Old result and the old behavior paradigm.
1:42:17
Yeah.
1:42:17
So if you want to solve it for a longer time, I have to
1:42:22
install software on your horse.
1:42:24
So I may create new bar parts, but I also have to to show you and to teach
1:42:30
you how to work with the new software.
1:42:33
And I will create new parts.
1:42:35
Parts on you.
1:42:36
Mm-hmm.
1:42:37
And that's the only way how it will work.
1:42:41
Yeah.
1:42:41
And if
1:42:42
Rupert Isaacson: the
1:42:42
Petra Vlasblom: owner when I started my work, I, I, I
1:42:47
didn't, I only trained horses.
1:42:49
And then I get to a situation that it was 11 o'clock in the evening and they
1:42:53
said, Hey, I'm on a competition field and, and my horse doesn't load anymore.
1:42:58
And I started my car, went to the competition field, and then I was in the
1:43:04
car on my way back and I thought, Hmm, this is not right, because when I only
1:43:09
train the horses the problem returns.
1:43:14
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:43:14
Petra Vlasblom: And then I said to all the, all the owners of the horses, if
1:43:19
you want me to train your horse, you have to come one evening to my, my
1:43:26
company and I will organize one evening.
1:43:29
It takes three hours about horse behavior and about how to install
1:43:34
new software on your horse.
1:43:37
And the one who says, oh, no, I'm not going to your place.
1:43:41
I have to drive for two hours.
1:43:43
When they said, no, I don't, don't do it.
1:43:45
I said, I will not come to your horse and to train it.
1:43:49
So you have to search for, for another trainer.
1:43:52
And I was, so, after I organized the evenings and they, they
1:43:58
visit the evenings, I was much more successful in my work.
1:44:03
'cause I trained the horse, I trained the owner, and then there was new
1:44:08
relationship and there was new software.
1:44:11
And the owners knew how to handle the horse
1:44:15
Rupert Isaacson: and
1:44:15
Petra Vlasblom: how to work with the new software.
1:44:17
And only that was for me, the way to work successful.
1:44:24
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting, we have something rather similar.
1:44:27
You know, we have three programs that are therapeutic horse boy method, movement
1:44:33
method, and tacking Horse Boy Method.
1:44:36
You're riding with a child, tacking, it's how you train the
1:44:40
horse from the ground as a therapy.
1:44:42
But movement method, no horses.
1:44:45
And what I, I'm exactly the same I'll say to usually a family, Hey
1:44:49
listen, I will work with you or your kid for a about six weeks.
1:44:58
In that six weeks I do need you to do a parent introductory
1:45:05
course for movement method.
1:45:08
I will make it as cheap as I can, but if you are not doing
1:45:12
this at home, then honestly
1:45:17
anything that good that happens at our place may not generalize over.
1:45:25
And because I'm a parent of an autistic child, I am.
1:45:30
I want you and I want your child to have success.
1:45:35
And I know that the only way this will happen really is if you have a
1:45:39
culture at home of moving in these ways that create the neuroplasticity.
1:45:49
And I know that people are overwhelmed, particularly the special needs parents.
1:45:54
So that's why I say I give it six weeks, somewhere in that sec, six
1:45:58
weeks, can you find one evening?
1:46:02
If they can't, we'll go six more weeks.
1:46:06
And if they can't find an evening, then I can't continue because I have to then say,
1:46:13
look, I need to make that space available for a family that will follow through.
1:46:22
But sometimes what I found when I started doing that was, interestingly, some
1:46:29
people went away and said, well, f you.
1:46:32
But then quite often they, maybe 24 months later, they come back.
1:46:36
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah.
1:46:37
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and say, okay, actually now we're ready.
1:46:40
We just weren't ready then.
1:46:41
Yeah.
1:46:42
Petra Vlasblom: You
1:46:42
Rupert Isaacson: know?
1:46:43
Do you find the same thing with Yeah,
1:46:46
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah.
1:46:47
Sometimes I had professional trainers and they they didn't like to be in, in
1:46:53
an evening together with like, people who was riding on a horse riding school.
1:46:57
Yeah.
1:46:58
And so they were professionals.
1:46:59
And so I had once I had a breeder in in in the class.
1:47:03
And and he said to everyone, oh, I don't believe she's she's getting my horse
1:47:08
into the trailer because there are so many people tried it and strong man.
1:47:14
And she's a, she's a little woman.
1:47:16
So how, how, I don't believe it.
1:47:20
And if she does it I will eat my broom.
1:47:24
Yeah.
1:47:25
And I think he's still eating.
1:47:26
It
1:47:29
Rupert Isaacson: takes a
1:47:29
Petra Vlasblom: while to chop to, and it's so nice because he, he was, he had
1:47:33
a lot of resistance because he thought, what does she, what, what can she do?
1:47:38
What my man or my the people who are working for me can do?
1:47:43
Mm-hmm.
1:47:43
And after that he, he's the one who, who who, who sends me the most clients.
1:47:50
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
1:47:51
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:47:51
Because they see it's not strange, it's not spiritual, it's, it's just horse
1:47:57
training on a very smart, smart way.
1:48:00
And what is so funny is maybe you had the same experience when you saw me training
1:48:06
Eddie, is that people always tell me, you are doing exactly the opposite as.
1:48:15
Everyone is doing, but it's so logical.
1:48:19
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:48:19
Petra Vlasblom: And I says, yes, it's logical what I'm doing.
1:48:22
It is,
1:48:24
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
1:48:24
It's, it's actually very similar to working with the nonverbal population.
1:48:29
What I generally will say to people is, everything you would do with a
1:48:34
neurotypical child, turn it upside down.
1:48:39
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:48:39
Rupert Isaacson: And if you do that, you are probably, so for
1:48:43
example, if you're trying to direct stop directing and follow Yeah.
1:48:48
That's the opposite.
1:48:49
And Right.
1:48:50
Yeah.
1:48:50
Petra Vlasblom: And that's what I always say to my students, think the opposite.
1:48:54
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:48:56
Yes.
1:48:57
Petra Vlasblom: Exactly The opposite.
1:48:58
What you are supposed to do normally.
1:49:03
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:49:04
It's funny though.
1:49:05
It's funny how people,
1:49:07
Petra Vlasblom: it is funny.
1:49:08
Rupert Isaacson: Don't always get it.
1:49:10
Petra Vlasblom: Because, because we are working the same
1:49:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:49:14
Petra Vlasblom: We are working.
1:49:15
And, and that's what I, what I realized when I, when we met the first
1:49:19
time, what you are doing with human, with humans, I'm doing with horses.
1:49:24
Mm-hmm.
1:49:24
And we do exactly the same thing.
1:49:26
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:49:27
Petra Vlasblom: And, and we have the same approach.
1:49:30
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:49:32
Petra Vlasblom: It's so funny.
1:49:33
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:49:33
It's, and it's interesting, back to a decision from the heart is not always
1:49:39
the right decision if it's in isolation.
1:49:44
From the brain or the gut.
1:49:46
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:49:47
Rupert Isaacson: But if it is in alignment with the brain and the gut,
1:49:53
then it's always the right decision.
1:49:55
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:49:55
Rupert Isaacson: Because I think one of the good things about decisions from the
1:49:58
heart is because the heart has no ego.
1:50:05
The heart can be broken, the heart can be hurt, but the heart
1:50:08
doesn't really have an ego.
1:50:10
So the heart can accept failure oddly enough.
1:50:14
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:50:15
Rupert Isaacson: And then the brain can rationalize failure and
1:50:20
say, well, maybe this is just the first try or the hundredth try,
1:50:25
but we will get there in the end.
1:50:27
And then the gut has to say yes or no, really.
1:50:31
Like, are we actually pissing in the wind here?
1:50:35
Or will the hundredth try work?
1:50:38
So I think the process that you've described is so interesting because
1:50:46
20 years ago when the natural horsemanship world was really taking
1:50:52
on, you heard so much of people saying, well, just love is enough.
1:50:56
Just love the horse.
1:50:57
Just exactly all the things you said.
1:51:00
And we saw a lot of people not have success.
1:51:05
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:51:05
Rupert Isaacson: Because yeah.
1:51:07
It's true.
1:51:08
It wasn't enough by itself.
1:51:09
It needed these other components.
1:51:11
It was a good start, but it needed these other components.
1:51:14
And then
1:51:18
it never occurred to me perhaps a bit because of my sort of Southern
1:51:24
African upbringing that other people had difficulty recognizing intuition
1:51:32
because I come from a family that
1:51:36
values that.
1:51:38
So that was always a part.
1:51:40
So then I read, oh, I see.
1:51:41
Yes, other people don't.
1:51:42
And people would say to me, how do you get in touch with your intuition?
1:51:47
Don't know.
1:51:47
You just feels like a feeling in your gut, I guess.
1:51:52
I don't know.
1:51:53
And then realizing, oh, I see.
1:51:57
If you don't have that, you have no choice but to either make an
1:52:04
isolated head or heart decision.
1:52:06
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:52:07
Rupert Isaacson: So how do you get into intuition?
1:52:11
And what I found with that was there is only actually one way, and that
1:52:16
is to spend a lot of time in nature.
1:52:19
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:52:20
Rupert Isaacson: And that if one does that, it actually takes care of itself.
1:52:25
In a funny way.
1:52:27
You start to listen with your body
1:52:32
to wind trees, weather.
1:52:37
Horse people are good at this because we know the weather will
1:52:39
affect the mood of the horse.
1:52:40
We know
1:52:43
things, all the things in nature will affect.
1:52:46
So horse people have a better understanding of this.
1:52:51
But of course, the horse people have changed.
1:52:54
And when I was a boy, many farmers were horse people.
1:53:03
Now it has changed.
1:53:04
There are still farmers who are horse people.
1:53:06
Yes.
1:53:07
But it's predominantly now a sport that is done by people
1:53:13
who live in suburbs of the city.
1:53:15
So, and their horses are living in stables.
1:53:19
So they're not spending maybe that time in nature, which is also
1:53:24
just the time with the horses.
1:53:27
And then I realized, oh, oh, oh, okay.
1:53:31
So what you really need to do to be a good dressage rider or to be a
1:53:36
good therapy artist, you just need to spend a lot of time with your horses.
1:53:39
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
1:53:40
Rupert Isaacson: You just need to literally hang out and include them in
1:53:44
things and do your chores with that.
1:53:47
So I started with my working students, having them do chores
1:53:51
with a horse on the end of a rope.
1:53:52
Like, can you push the wheelbarrow and lead the horse at the same time?
1:53:57
Not because it's a skill, but just because you and the horse
1:54:01
will need to figure it out.
1:54:03
And that will get you an interesting relationship with this horse.
1:54:08
Maybe the wheelbarrow tips over, if it does, I will not be angry, but try so
1:54:20
when you've, as we sort of approach the two hour mark,
1:54:25
we, we need to wrap this up.
1:54:26
And I think we've gotten to some really interesting solutions here.
1:54:32
Whether it's a therapeutic barn or a sport barn, when people do not seem to have
1:54:37
the time to really create that kind of relationship that provides the intuition,
1:54:49
you need to give them a solution and they will say, I have no time.
1:54:56
What's your solution?
1:54:59
How to create time from no time.
1:55:01
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:55:03
Yeah, what, what I see a lot is that people are not only struggling
1:55:08
with their relationship or their connection with their horse, but with
1:55:13
the co connection with their self.
1:55:15
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:55:16
Petra Vlasblom: And I think that is.
1:55:19
One of the biggest problems nowadays.
1:55:23
Mm-hmm.
1:55:23
Because there are a lot of people that are only interested in social media,
1:55:28
not telephones a lot of time spending.
1:55:32
And people are spending a lot of time not with horses or not
1:55:35
with nature, but a lot of time.
1:55:37
Yeah.
1:55:38
And, and they get, they don't, don't, they don't get the connection to
1:55:43
their self, but they are outside.
1:55:45
They shut down.
1:55:46
They, they are like frozen.
1:55:49
Mm-hmm.
1:55:50
And I think that is a, is a is yeah.
1:55:53
It's becoming a big problem.
1:55:55
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:55:57
Petra Vlasblom: If you are not connected with yourself yeah.
1:56:01
How, how do you want to connect with a, with another person or with your horse?
1:56:05
Rupert Isaacson: So what do you tell them to do?
1:56:06
Go take ayahuasca.
1:56:07
What?
1:56:09
Petra Vlasblom: I never did it.
1:56:10
You did?
1:56:12
So you can tell them.
1:56:13
But I don't,
1:56:14
Rupert Isaacson: I actually, no, I haven't done it.
1:56:15
That's 1, 1, 1 thing I haven't done.
1:56:17
No, you didn't.
1:56:17
Petra Vlasblom: Oh,
1:56:17
Rupert Isaacson: probably.
1:56:18
Yeah.
1:56:18
No, I probably will at some point, but just, I've never
1:56:21
been in South America, so Yeah.
1:56:22
No.
1:56:22
Well, I have but not there.
1:56:24
Yeah.
1:56:24
No,
1:56:25
Rupert Isaacson: no.
1:56:25
But you know, sometimes one has to give a solution and say, okay guys,
1:56:28
do this thing, just do this one thing.
1:56:31
So when you say, okay, they're often the, the problem might
1:56:34
be disconnection from self.
1:56:37
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:56:37
Rupert Isaacson: Then what might be a solution you, you would propose
1:56:41
for somebody who has no time?
1:56:43
Petra Vlasblom: To be honest, when I'm, when I'm I'm on a stable to train
1:56:48
horses with behavior problems the owner is not, expecting me to say something
1:56:56
about self-development or, yeah.
1:56:58
Being out of connection with, with yourself.
1:57:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:57:01
Petra Vlasblom: When I have the students, I know the students because they are
1:57:04
with me for one, two or three years.
1:57:06
Yeah.
1:57:07
So I know them very well.
1:57:09
And we have also the the modules for self-development, so I can really
1:57:15
help them to develop the themselves.
1:57:19
But it's, it's, it's, it's not something I will do at a horse training because
1:57:27
sometimes when I feel somebody's open for it, I will, I will give a
1:57:32
suggestion, but not standard because Yeah.
1:57:37
Most of the people are closing the, the fences immediately.
1:57:42
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:57:45
There's something I sometimes say, which is,
1:57:51
if it's to someone doing the therapeutic stuff, I might say, you are asking
1:57:56
this person to make a big change.
1:57:59
You want this child to go from not speaking to speaking, or you want
1:58:04
this person to go from suffering through trauma to somehow resilience.
1:58:11
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:58:12
Rupert Isaacson: Or if it's with a horse, you know, you want this horse
1:58:14
to go in a trailer or you want this horse to jump this fence or you want
1:58:18
this horse to do a pf for the horse.
1:58:22
This is a big thing.
1:58:24
It's a big change.
1:58:26
What big change are you making in your life?
1:58:30
Petra Vlasblom: Oh, that's
1:58:30
Rupert Isaacson: beautiful because if you are not making a big change what
1:58:36
tools have you got to show this horse or this person how to make a change?
1:58:43
And if you are saying, well I don't need to make a change, this horse needs to
1:58:48
make a change or I don't need to make a change, this person needs to make a
1:58:51
change, that is inevitably conflict.
1:58:55
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
1:58:56
Rupert Isaacson: And the solution I'll often give is this change does not
1:59:01
have to be a difficult traumatic change like giving up smoking or something.
1:59:07
What about learning some Spanish or what about reading a very different kind of
1:59:17
book to what you would normally read?
1:59:20
Or what about something that is relatively easy to do but is radically different
1:59:27
from what you would normally do?
1:59:30
And even that you are going to resist because it's not natural, but it will give
1:59:35
you empathy and it will give you tools.
1:59:39
Petra Vlasblom: Hmm.
1:59:40
Rupert Isaacson: Because you have to get yourself to that.
1:59:43
Even if you're just doing Duolingo Spanish or something, you still
1:59:46
have to make yourself do it and, and you probably won't.
1:59:50
But then when the horse is resisting or the child is not responding as you
1:59:56
wish, you can check in with yourself and say, yeah, but is that me?
2:00:00
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:00:02
Rupert Isaacson: And if so,
2:00:06
if I don't begin to make those changes, how can I show somebody else how to do it?
2:00:17
And it's interesting that one can resonate.
2:00:19
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:00:20
Rupert Isaacson: But the problem with saying that is
2:00:22
then I have to do it myself.
2:00:23
And that is very annoying.
2:00:29
Says Rupert reaching for his Lingo app, you know.
2:00:36
Well, Petra, listen, it's been fantastic.
2:00:38
I want listeners and viewers, we are doing this in the end of March,
2:00:45
2026, and in June, I believe 2026.
2:00:49
If you're watching this soon.
2:00:51
Petra and I are going to do a thing together in the Netherlands.
2:00:55
And I will sort of do my in hand classical stuff mixed with Neurosciencey.
2:01:01
Per people stuff and Petra's gonna do her stuff.
2:01:06
And I invite you to come
2:01:09
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
2:01:10
Rupert Isaacson: At a place in the Netherlands to be decided.
2:01:13
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:01:14
I have a very nice place.
2:01:15
Rupert is nearby the border of Germany, so
2:01:19
Rupert Isaacson: very good.
2:01:20
Okay.
2:01:20
Petra Vlasblom: Maybe it's also interesting for the Germany.
2:01:23
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
2:01:23
How far up or down the border, what's the closest town on the, on the Netherlands
2:01:27
Petra Vlasblom: and today?
2:01:27
Rupert Isaacson: Is it aum?
2:01:29
Petra Vlasblom: Aum?
2:01:29
No, not Aum.
2:01:30
I think
2:01:34
it's, it's not my area.
2:01:36
Rupert.
2:01:36
So, is
2:01:37
Rupert Isaacson: it more north from Amsterdam or more south from
2:01:40
Petra Vlasblom: No, it's it's near Ade and Ade.
2:01:44
Do you know that?
2:01:45
No, no, no,
2:01:46
Rupert Isaacson: no.
2:01:47
Petra Vlasblom: We have to find out Rupert.
2:01:48
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
2:01:49
Do you know which town it's close to?
2:01:50
On the German side?
2:01:51
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:01:51
It's interesting for the German people and it's interesting for the Dutch people.
2:01:56
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
2:01:56
Then we, we will do so.
2:01:58
I invite you guys come along and meet Petra Petra's.
2:02:01
Very cool.
2:02:03
And one of the things I really appreciate about Petra is she came on one of my
2:02:09
retreats that was not about horses, and then she also came twice to.
2:02:17
Learn stuff with us and our horses with no ego at all, with no, no thing
2:02:23
of, well, why do I need to learn from you when I myself am a professional?
2:02:31
And I was very struck by that.
2:02:35
That's always to me, a really good sign if someone just comes and
2:02:41
saying, well, listen, I'm curious.
2:02:43
Without the ego of needing me to show the same thing back there was none
2:02:54
of that, and that's really unusual.
2:02:58
So that immediately built trust.
2:03:00
And then when I saw her working with one of the horses at our
2:03:03
place, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, she knows what she's doing.
2:03:07
But not just because she got results, because the horse, I saw the horse
2:03:13
make this decision to do the thing that Petra was encouraging him to do.
2:03:25
And it wasn't a question of her making the other thing harder, which
2:03:29
is another natural horsemanship.
2:03:31
They make the wrong thing harder and the good thing easier.
2:03:34
And then I, I wouldn't say there's anything necessarily wrong with that.
2:03:40
To be honest, that's what I expected to see.
2:03:43
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:03:43
Rupert Isaacson: What I didn't really expect to see was the horse making
2:03:49
a really clear and absolute decision without a negative reinforcement.
2:03:56
That was interesting to me.
2:03:59
So I invite you guys to come and watch Petra at work and, you know, go
2:04:04
through some, some exercises with her and she's got a good training program.
2:04:08
And if you're listening to this particularly within Europe and you're
2:04:12
running a therapeutic place, you, I do really encourage you strongly,
2:04:19
strongly, encourage you to think in terms of having people like Petra come
2:04:26
in and work with your team to help ease the human dynamic and the equine
2:04:35
dynamic and the human to equine dynamic.
2:04:39
Because sometimes an outsider can create a really positive change when
2:04:48
the dynamic between the individuals on the place has reached a where
2:04:55
can't really go any further or seems that it can't go any further.
2:04:59
And given that we, our job is to create wellbeing, we have
2:05:04
to create this wellbeing.
2:05:07
Our teams and with our equines.
2:05:09
So that was why I wanted Petra to come on the show.
2:05:12
So I do encourage you to hire her and engage her services.
2:05:17
So Petra, how do people reach you?
2:05:19
Give us the website, give us the plugs.
2:05:21
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:05:22
You can reach me on my website www two moons nl.
2:05:29
It's the, it's two M-O-O-N-S nl.
2:05:35
Rupert Isaacson: So it's the number two?
2:05:36
Petra Vlasblom: The number two,
2:05:37
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
2:05:37
And then the word moons.
2:05:38
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:05:39
Rupert Isaacson: Do nls.
2:05:40
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:05:40
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:05:41
And they can find you there.
2:05:42
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:05:43
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
2:05:43
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:05:44
And Rupert, I think you will be pleased because when we are
2:05:49
giving the workshop together.
2:05:50
Do you remember the sport horse with the mounting problem?
2:05:54
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
2:05:55
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:05:55
So I trained him.
2:05:57
He, he had a, he had a big problem when you wanted to mount him.
2:06:01
He was jumping like three, three meters in the, in the air
2:06:07
Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh.
2:06:07
And
2:06:07
Petra Vlasblom: after I trained him, he only wanted to step by
2:06:10
the, by the, how do you say it?
2:06:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mountain block.
2:06:14
Petra Vlasblom: Mountain block, yeah.
2:06:16
And and he's there when we, when we are giving the workshop
2:06:19
so you can work with him also.
2:06:21
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
2:06:22
Petra Vlasblom: So yeah, I will, I would really, I'm
2:06:24
Rupert Isaacson: terrified.
2:06:26
Petra Vlasblom: No, no, no.
2:06:27
Because he's such a lovely horse.
2:06:29
Yeah.
2:06:29
The most lovely horse you ever, you've ever seen.
2:06:32
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:06:33
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:06:33
But it's would be very nice because then we can combine our work together.
2:06:39
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
2:06:39
Petra Vlasblom: So Nice.
2:06:41
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I very much look forward to it, my friend.
2:06:43
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, me too.
2:06:44
Rupert Isaacson: So there guy there.
2:06:46
Go guys.
2:06:46
And if you can't make this one, we'll be doing more.
2:06:49
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
2:06:49
Rupert Isaacson: So,
2:06:50
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah,
2:06:50
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
2:06:51
It will not be the only one.
2:06:52
Petra Vlasblom: Yes, please.
2:06:52
Okay.
2:06:53
Because it's so nice.
2:06:54
We work the same, we do exactly the same on a, on another level.
2:06:59
And that's why yeah.
2:07:02
Why there's a, a very special connection also between us Rupert.
2:07:07
Mm.
2:07:07
So thank you very much for that.
2:07:08
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, the, the feeling is mutual.
2:07:10
I really appreciate it.
2:07:11
Yeah.
2:07:13
Okay, my friend.
2:07:14
Well, with that, i'm going to press that red button and we
2:07:18
will see you on the next one.
2:07:21
Petra Vlasblom: Thank you very much.
2:07:22
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2:07:26
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