Latest / Coaches Rising / 269 - David Kitchings: The Power and Potential of IFS

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269 - David Kitchings: The Power and Potential of IFS · Coaches Rising

• 0:00
  [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the coaches rising podcast where we are exploring the frontiers of transformational coaching.
• 0:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Today I am joined by David Kitchens, who is a very experienced IFS therapist workshop leader.
• 0:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's also a couple's therapist specializing in IFIO intimacy from the inside out.
• 0:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: So today we're going to be exploring how we can apply internal family systems in coaching.
• 0:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: How can we do that ethically?
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: What are some of the nuances of using IFS in coaching?
• 0:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: David is just obviously very experienced with this approach, and so we get into some of the more nuanced understandings of the different types of parts we can encounter.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk about the boundary between coaching and therapy.
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: and we'll talk about taking IFS beyond the frame of the individual into a cultural systemic view and David's learnings around that.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's dive in.
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Here's the podcast with David Kitchens.
• 1:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: So David, I'm really excited to be joined with you and, yeah, you know, I just really enjoyed a little check-in before we hit record and we're going to be talking about, yeah, your work, what you're up to in the world and how are you first of all?
• 1:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm doing pretty well.
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited to be here with you and later today we have a Q&A around the program following symphony of self.
• 1:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, and we received over the last few days about five or six inches of snow, which is not uncommon, but it's becoming more uncommon.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's lovely because all the seeders and trees are covered in snow and so it's lovely.
• 2:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: beautiful, beautiful, magical.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, then let's yeah you mentioned the SOS, this symphony of self extension and we're going to talk about IFS today, something you're you know you've steeped in,
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a modality now that most people internal family systems, most people know what it is because it's exploded in popularity over the last few years.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: What are you seeing?
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you see more and more people.
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: becoming inspired and interested by this modality.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do, it has really taken off.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dick put the model together, probably 40 years ago, I know you've met with him and had him on.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's been around a long time and it's been, you know, growing organically and then there was the Center for Self Leadership and which eventually became the IFS Institute.
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when I took my training, starting back in 2017, I initially read about the model in 2013, when we were living in Singapore, and it was more part of my own personal development.
• 3:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was really intrigued by it.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the work I read, which was by Jay Early, was a little more manager-driven, and
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't kind of the complete model.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when I did my training in 2017, most of the people I showed up with didn't really know a lot about the model.
• 3:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had, maybe it was late 2016, I had watched six hour Pessy video about it with Frank Anderson, with some colleagues, a peer consultation group, and
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we were like, okay, this is intriguing and I had parts that really liked it and I had parts that were pretty skeptical of it.
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I started using it with clients that were pretty stable and who were comfortable with me learning a new model.
• 4:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was trained psychodynamically and
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we showed up, you know, I did my level one eight months later and, you know, maybe we had seen a book or two.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: We hadn't read it.
• 4:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: There were no videos.
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had seen other than like the Pessie one.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we were all starting kind of together with it.
• 4:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now when folks come into a level one, you know, some of them have waited four or five years to get into a training.
• 4:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've done other programs with IFS.
• 4:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: They read the books.
• 4:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: They watch the videos.
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you
• 4:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: kind of vaguely familiar like I was and some that are pretty steeped in the model.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I hear about it all the time.
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Our wife isn't as a leadership coach and she'll get a client and they'll start talk talking parts and she'll be like, do you know why I best?
• 4:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh yeah, I know I best.
• 5:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really expanding.
• 5:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, not only in the therapeutic and coaching, you know, areas, but also it's expanding into classrooms, psychedelic work, you know, mediation, stuffy benderic is taking it into climate ecology, center for climate psychology.
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it can be used in lots of different spirituality,
• 5:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're hoping that it's used more with governments, with some of the conflict we have going on in the world.
• 5:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Social activists, it can be really helpful in that arena.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there's a lot of applications of it.
• 5:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think about the, I'd love to explore in a moment, the impact it's had with your clients.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: But what do you think about the potential for this kind of modality to,
• 6:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: help us navigate these times.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: You've just described all these different areas that's being applied in.
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, because for me, it's such a, it's so relatable in terms of human experience, that there is these different parts of me that get activated.
• 6:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there are other times where, I'm coming from place, doesn't feel like parts.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to,
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: like in a way like a significant part of my journey was this transition from only living in parts, accessing something bigger than parts, and seeing parts as parts, you know.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so something like internal funding systems, I feel like could facilitate that shift on
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: larger scale.
• 6:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: And why that's beneficial for me was because it's something I just became more spacious, you know, and more compassionate towards myself and and could relate to others in a more mature way.
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: There was all these benefits that came out of it.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how you see it's potential impact on this scale.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I see the impact, the impact can be really big.
• 7:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate your story and, you know, like with some of Deb Dana's work around Polyvagal Theory.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: be curious if we had time, I know we don't, but if you did an exercise, when you weren't in that expansive state, when you were more in that kind of constricted state, how did you see yourself in the world, how did the world seem to you?
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then when you're in that more expansive state, how do you see yourself in the world and how does the world seem to you?
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: That exercise will really
• 7:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: The, and one of the distinctions I like to make is, you know, the idea of multiplicity in parts is not new.
• 8:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's been around a long time way before the IFS model, you know, Freud actually divided, you know, the system up into the it ego super ego.
• 8:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of spiritual text talk about multiplicity, get stalled was talking about multiplicity, transactional analysis.
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: What I feel that, you know, Dick really brought to bear was seeing the strategies that parts use to try to take care of us, to try to get needs met, to try to protect us.
• 8:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think when we limited to a part, sometimes we start to think parts are the problem, but parts aren't the problem.
• 8:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: We need our parts.
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Our parts represent our humanity.
• 8:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: They help us get things done.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: They help us both be proactive, and they help us play, sue the relax.
• 8:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And our parts have a lot of wisdom, but they get burdened with these strategies if they're what we call protectors.
• 9:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're often, they often learn those pretty young.
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So these parts often don't have a toolbox of strategies.
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they're driven by vulnerability, burden, past trauma, hurt.
• 9:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so what'll happen is we'll have a constraint.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're trying to connect, instead of through vulnerability,
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: or authentic connection, or from a place of integrity, we're connecting from a place of protection.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that often results in the other person needing to respond from a place of protection.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I work with couples all the time, I work with families.
• 9:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: They get caught in these patterns of responding from places of protection of these constraints.
• 9:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when you can start to get some compassion around that
• 10:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: and soften from the protection and drop down and debaunt our ability or authenticity or integrity.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which does require sitting with a lot of discomfort, suddenly the conversation changes.
• 10:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at our world today,
• 10:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Many people, many good people, are trapped in this constraint of protection and not feeling any connection and helping people come to a conversation in a more open place, speaking from a place of vulnerability or integrity or essence, can dramatically shift conversations.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's where I see the model can have such power and such impact.
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's you and your partner, you and your neighbor, or we're talking about communities under threat, do the difference, the isms out there, or, you know, governments.
• 11:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's beautiful because there's
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that brings up for me is there's, you know, a post this has been applied in the therapeutic paradigm, and that's very powerful because it helps people.
• 11:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: mature to grow, it's being used in coaching, but what's beautiful about what you're sharing is that it doesn't even need to go all the way to unburdening for this model to be very impactful actually, that there's great benefit in just understanding that at various moments,
• 11:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, these burden parts may be activated, and I might be seeing through them, seeing the world, as you said, like it seems a very particular way, and that there's a way that I can shift in those moments, and something, then a different outcome becomes possible.
• 11:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's really worth highlighting here, that it's like, there's a whole range of like applications.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right, exactly, exactly, you know,
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: If we're able to go and find those burdens we hold with our young tender parts from past experience or from what's been passed down generationally through the lines are culturally, we have the shifts can be incredible to see people really have freedom from that.
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the parts that protect those younger parts don't have to operate in the same way.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as you say, we don't necessarily have to do that to help have a different perspective.
• 12:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Beth Semski, who teaches on developing cultural competence, talks about
• 12:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: we experience our experience through the lens of our experience.
• 12:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not necessarily what happens to us, it's how we experience what happens to us.
• 12:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when parts of us get really protective, you know, the lens of perspective starts to get really small.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: One fellow trainer, Latani, you talked about, you know,
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: when you take your hands and you make binoculars or horses that have, you know, the things next to their eyes, so they don't see all that's what's happening.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So parts really lose a lot of perspective of, they don't always appreciate their impact.
• 13:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they, if they're young, they don't have a lot of tools, so even just connecting from a place of compassion, patients, presence with those parts, helping to expand their perspective and then develop mentally supporting them and not being so binary.
• 13:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: and how they approach something, like either it works out perfectly, or I get the hell out of there.
• 13:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like showing that there's a whole continuum of responses and getting support and learning to integrate that can be transformative.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think this isn't pulling as well, because
• 14:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, in the coaching field, there's, you know, a conversation, I'm sure you're familiar with this, which is, you know, what is the role of a coach here, what's the, what's the jurisdiction of a coach, when is it important to refer, you know, and the most common question we had is like, can coaches work with excels which might be a good, you know, might be good in your response to kind of just.
• 14:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: if you could just lay out the different names for the parts and, um, you know, so, but that, yeah, this is a common kind of line of inquiry.
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think what you're saying for me,
• 14:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: is that's why like even if a coach isn't working with her parts, you know, that actually in leadership, you know, great insight and impact can occur from just understanding about parts and helping people and blend from parts and accessing essence and self.
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: So let me come back to that question.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you could just riff on what I'm saying and in a sense, I'd love to ask you
• 15:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you could talk about the model and in particular also name, you know, you said like being vulnerable and authentic, and is that the same as being in self, you know?
• 15:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, but we could talk about self and the other parts and the relationship and how you see this topic.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm kind of, I'm putting a lot on your plate here, and then how you see this topic of,
• 15:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Also, how coaches can relate to IFS?
• 15:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love Lee, lovely.
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll riff and then just bring me back if you feel like I'm good.
• 15:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no problem at all with that, with my system.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: But just generally speaking, you know, I want to say that this is a client-informed model.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And based on what different IFS practitioners have learned,
• 16:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a map that has been created about that we used to talk about the internal system and how to work with the internal system.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the map, like all maps, is not what's important.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: The person sitting across from you's what's important.
• 16:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you might use languageing around the map, and as Dick says, it's a pretty good map.
• 16:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we just want to see that the map is kind of a learning tool.
• 16:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I will tell folks in training, you know, if I'm following a map and it says go this way, and I get to an edge of a cliff and that cliff's not on the map.
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't keep walking because the map says to keep walking.
• 16:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so really being connected to the system across from you, that's the territory that's important.
• 16:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the way we kind of articulate the map that's been involved with Dix work and many others is so you have two classes of parts.
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have protectors and then exiles and protectors are divided into managers and firefighters.
• 17:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So managers are the parts of us that are proactive.
• 17:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're the ones that help us get things done, they proactively try to keep from feeling or experiencing what the exile holds.
• 17:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's when they're in a burden role.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: When they're not in a burden role, you know, you have your parts that do your to-do list, that go to the grocery store, that, you know, run your podcast, that whatever the case may be, like, we need these parts that help us do life.
• 17:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when they get burned with a protective role, and this is where the strategy comes in, they get very attached to a strategy to not experience what the Exile holds.
• 17:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they can get very focused on image, focused on control.
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Their motto is never again.
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like if I can figure this out, I'll never experience that again.
• 17:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm in a training and let's say something goes poorly and I feel some shame, my manager parts like, all right, I'm gonna teach that again where that never happens again.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and so you can work when you work with clients, whether it's coaching therapy, you can see where they're really attached to their strategy.
• 18:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a manager.
• 18:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Firefighters, that word is used because they're reactive when they're burdened.
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're putting out the fire.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: All they care about is getting out anyone who's certain put out the fire.
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're reactive.
• 18:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's say the manager strategy doesn't work and suddenly you're starting to feel what the exile holds.
• 18:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: they go into action, take you out.
• 18:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's all sorts of strategies that can happen there, you know, procrastination, getting on your phone, you know, using a substance, shopping, all the way to suicideality, there's a whole range.
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the reactive.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're, their models kind of like no matter what.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going in there no matter what.
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to worry about the damage.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you think about it, society often loves managers.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: they get really connected to our identity.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Society often doesn't like firefighters.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Firefighter behavior often gets shame to get spithologized, it gets misunderstood.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: We send people to prison.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like we have a whole thing, you can see around these two sources of infection.
• 19:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, when a firefighter's not in the burden of role,
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're important to help us play, to help us rest, to help us relax, to help us enjoy, to be creative.
• 19:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, managers can be creative too, but they're like, they've got that, they sue, they're distracting ways that are really important.
• 19:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So those are the protectors.
• 19:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: The exiles are the parts that hold burdens and burdens are extreme beliefs or sensations or emotions that sort of get trapped around an experience, whether it's one experience or over time or pass down or from culture and that becomes that part's identity.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a coat or skin that they wear.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: They believe they are the part, like I'm worthless, I'm unlovable,
• 20:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not enough.
• 20:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: How many times have you been with some of they start to show emotion in the first thing they do as they apologize?
• 20:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like this messaging, something is wrong with me or who I am or how I show up.
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or when people were in their essence or in their emotion and parts that we need to get you out of here because it's not safe for you.
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm gonna exile you away.
• 20:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes the system cannot stand the exiles because they think they're dangerous.
• 20:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they love them and they're really trying to protect them.
• 20:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't really, it's not that they can't stand the exile.
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: They can't stand what they represent.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you and I have a conversation and you say something that lands on my exile,
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: and I start to feel that shame or that feeling of not being worthwhile or whatever it might be, then a protector's got to come in and help out.
• 21:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the model in a nutshell, and those are constraints.
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So IFS is a constraint releasing model.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about building people
• 21:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: those essential qualities and finding the, and using that to address the constraints and remove the constraints so then you can access more of that and bring more of that into the world.
• 21:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's super helpful and actually what you just say here is really important for me because we've talked about this on the podcast before, it's that actually a lot of coaching, if we're not careful, can be built on a kind of building people up, model, you know, to use your words.
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, um,
• 22:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I want some, you know, and there's good intentions, like, you know, it's like, how do we get from where we are to where we want to be, but that where we want to be can be mixed in with a sense of deficiency, you know, like, if I'm more confident or if I'm better at this or at that then then I'll be okay, you know, and actually it's, um,
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm seeing now and we've talked about this through Symphony of Self is models of coaching, which are actually also looking at releasing constraints because there's a natural kind of
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: healing and of growth intelligence in us, which, you know, when we meet ourselves with love and acceptance, then, you know, then there can be those constraints can be kind of honored for their intelligence, but then they can like, they can release and
• 23:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: something comes through.
• 23:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this is the future of coaching too, you know, as it starts to recognize these kind of universal principles, so to speak.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, Steve Marshall was, you know, on your program and he was just fantastic.
• 23:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: He talks about the self improvement paradigm and at the basis of that is inadequacy.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's not that those F and like he said, you know, you do come back to the developmental process, but what are you building that house on is it on a foundation of an adequacy or is it on a foundation of essence strength and integrity.
• 23:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I really resonated with what he shared.
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I talked to, when I was working with adolescents and parents, I would talk to them about building on strength all the time.
• 23:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, are you trying to fill a void of inadequacy?
• 23:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or are you building on something that's precious in you or strength in you?
• 23:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and from that place, we can build.
• 24:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: from the other place, it's just the house of cards is there.
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, once you have a set, there's not a lot of resilience when you build on deficiency, because the minute it gets harder, you get knocked down.
• 24:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: You just drop all the way down to the bottom into hopelessness, helplessness,
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: see it's true, I do suck.
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like parts protectors when they're burdened, they don't say if they say when it's when is this going to happen again, not if it's going to happen.
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's sort of their role.
• 24:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: When you learn about protectors and you learn to support them, you see that they're often exhausted, they're often worn out because they can't give up the watch.
• 24:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: because then it's their fault.
• 24:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the criticism comes in, the shame comes in.
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, building on this, and I think coaching, what I love about coaching, I before I became a therapist, I spent my initial undergrad was in psychology and I worked in community mental health.
• 25:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like,
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was 22.
• 25:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I actually started working in patient psychiatric treatment centers in college, working community mental health.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I was, I ran a drug outpatient clinic at like 24.
• 25:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, I am way too young.
• 25:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I have my own work to do.
• 25:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is overwhelming.
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm around a lot of trauma.
• 25:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I went and got a lot of grief.
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And loved that.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then when I started practicing law, it was so adversarial.
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wasn't working for something that I had a passion to defend.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So then I went and got an MBA and worked in business.
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because what I found is I loved building things.
• 25:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I loved building up people and things and strategy and all that.
• 25:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Eventually became a state home parent of three very young kids.
• 25:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And
• 26:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we lived in Singapore, we lived in Switzerland.
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when I came back, I was like, okay, now I'm in a place to support people and really felt like I could help them.
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I went through a year of discernment of how did I wanna do that?
• 26:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I talked to coaches.
• 26:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Life coaches, executive leadership coaches, organizational coaches, I talked to psychologists, counselors, social workers, I talked to pastors and priests, I talked to energy workers, I talked to mediums that, you know, I looked at all of that and what I wanted to do the whole continuum, but I wanted to be able to work with trauma.
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like my system wasn't comfortable working with trauma without going to get the training.
• 26:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I went into, that's why I went and got been my master's in counseling in Northwestern.
• 26:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what I can feel like sometimes the therapy side and misses is the integration and accountability that's on the coaching side.
• 27:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: the moving, what do you do with it then?
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, our medical model, our Western medical model, is one that's like, let's get you from sick to not sick, sick to zero.
• 27:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then what?
• 27:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then you're supposedly okay.
• 27:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that IFS and coaching is really about getting people too.
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: being different in the world, moving in the world in a different way.
• 27:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that takes some integration, and it takes some accountability, like it takes a practice.
• 27:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I have always integrated some of the elements of coaching with my therapeutic practice, which some systems can take years and years and years.
• 27:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: If it's a highly traumatized system, you really have to work slowly and carefully and really attune to the person sitting across from you to what is okay for their system.
• 27:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But not every system is heavily traumatized.
• 28:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are also systems that have the ego strength, that have the self-energy, that can take the internal container to even work with their vulnerability in their burdens, and they'll stay stable as a system, and then they can move forward into integration and accountability, and whatever they want to bring into the world.
• 28:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's beautiful.
• 28:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many things get touched as you share this.
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's bookmark the, you know, as you're modeling like the maturity of a practitioner, you know, are at the level of presence in a tune and being has something I feel so strongly about.
• 28:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, I notice that there are modes of therapy, like IFS, NARM, NARM, Dr. Lorenz Heller's work, where it's focusing on human thriving, you know?
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there are modes of coaching which are recognizing
• 29:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know what we've just talked about that if you just kind of paper over build a foundation over the deficiency it's not really serving the client trauma informed approaches and it's been a you know it's been a topic of exploration and I see you know I think
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, like the level of training is essential and ongoing support and supervision.
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we kind of defund curious what you think about this, but there's often a question we get, which is like, what's the boundary between coaching and therapy and on one level that there's some very
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: Useful ways to think about that, but actually the more you look into it, like when you zoom in, that the harder it gets to see it.
• 29:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: Now there's some very clear, clear cases where you can very quickly say that's, that's beyond the coach's scope of training.
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: this is where you need to be informed about referral, but I do see, and my own practice has been like, this band boundary is actually quite transformational.
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually something which is invites me into my own moral and ethical development, because, you know, I can't just be blasey and just wait into territories with my client that's around not equipped for and I don't want
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very passionate about helping the client come into deeper and deeper contact with themselves and so that does involve meeting emotions and sometimes even her parts that show up and so just so There's you know, there's I think it's inviting the whole field into it some important questions around
• 30:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: And what's our role to play in there for what's our journey as a practitioner of training?
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love all that.
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate that.
• 31:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one thing I'd like to say is, you know, as we have these conversations, and it's, you know, I can get quite passionate about things.
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's easy to flatten a story.
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to get efficient in the language.
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: points towards generalities.
• 31:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to acknowledge, you know, there's nuances throughout all of this and there are, you know, different modes of therapy that very much focus other than IFS that very much focus on the client thriving positive psychology has been around a long time and it was like that.
• 31:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so some of my languageing is often around general points.
• 31:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they always need to be unpacked, and there's a lot of nuance in there.
• 31:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I definitely want to acknowledge that limitation when we're talking kind of higher level macro.
• 32:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if it lands, if it doesn't land well on anyone listening, I just really want to honor that and appreciate that and would always be open to feedback around that.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a study out.
• 32:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember it exactly in the man's name that did it.
• 32:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did his name slip so I mind.
• 32:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But more people were going to non-therapist, then therapist.
• 32:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's still a lot of stigma around going to therapy.
• 32:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now I think that's changing with the younger generation.
• 32:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm talking to my own kids and you know, it's there much more
• 32:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: People would read my background, and they would see that I worked in business.
• 32:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: They would see that I had a lot of greed.
• 32:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: They would see that I had raised kids, that I had not been a 35 or 40 year therapist, and they would come to me because of that reason, because they were uncomfortable going to a therapist.
• 33:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So coaches are getting a lot of folks and lots of us still hold these parts that don't want to go into the history.
• 33:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I really appreciate that.
• 33:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of compassion for that.
• 33:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, our clients can't decide our scope of practice.
• 33:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you are a loving, caring individual who is a coach, they are going to want to stay with you and they may say, okay, I think I want to talk about what happened to me when I was 21 or when I was, you know, 10 or whatever.
• 33:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I trust you and I want to work with you because I trust you and that is lovely and it's a beautiful reflection of what you're bringing to the client but that doesn't decide your scope of practice.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have to stay with an our integrity and be able to say, I appreciate you, I care about you, but that is not what I do.
• 34:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in the service of you, let's get you to somebody that can help you with that.
• 34:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Coaches do not have to give up the client.
• 34:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: It can be in tandem, it can be supported, client can't afford it, come back to me when you're done.
• 34:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: But because it's, but I what that's something that often will make me nervous when I hear folks talk is my clients would rather talk to me than a therapist and I believe you.
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe them when I hear that.
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: But still, you go and get training for a reason, and lots of training, which coaches can go get trauma and form training, they can go get somatic training, you know, you've had that on your show that those folks, Marcelo, Steve, you know, was training in SE, somatic experiencing, I've gotten trained and Susan McConnell's work, but
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: What I do know is I've worked with some very talented, functional people in the world that were carrying heavy trauma that no one knew about.
• 35:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And something can happen in their life or in their work with you while you're seeing them where they destabilize.
• 35:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not necessarily the coaches fault or the therapist fault.
• 35:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It could be, but often it's something that happens.
• 35:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have a system across from you.
• 35:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what to do with it?
• 35:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know how to support that person?
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of a sudden, you're like, wow, I am out of my depth.
• 35:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: That can happen quickly.
• 35:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we make wise decisions, often because of the 3 to 1% of what can happen.
• 35:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it common?
• 35:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, but it happens and you don't want to find yourself suddenly in that situation.
• 35:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, let me check with you.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: How's that landing?
• 35:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 35:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, not know.
• 35:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's fantastic you bring it up and I think because a lot of coaches can be fearful of this and I parts can get.
• 36:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: activated first of all, which is so it's a beautiful moment of like professional development and in the sense of meeting oneself.
• 36:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think so I love that you bring this up and I think one thing is it's you said it it doesn't happen that often so that's important to say but it does but it can happen and I think what I'd love to stay with it and
• 36:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: this is why I think coaches need to be trauma informed or because then you then you can learn about what to do when it happens rather than just not knowing and it doesn't mean you start doing therapy with that client but it's also not good if you just go like okay stop you know okay don't don't you know because you can you can traumatize her parts if they suddenly show up
• 36:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think trauma parts become hurts if they're rejected.
• 37:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: What my question really is, like, what do you think is in those moments?
• 37:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what is the right thing to do?
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like how this is a good educational moment for coaches to kind of get an understanding.
• 37:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: What are the signs when something comes through that's destabilizing for a client?
• 37:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: And what should a coach be asking themselves in that moment and what can they do?
• 37:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, you know, I remember reading from one of the participants in symphony of self, you know, they talked about trauma sensitive trauma informed and then trauma trained like.
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a range around trauma and having at least an idea of knowing how to what to watch out for for trauma, when you're maybe getting to that area.
• 37:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is one thing I would recommend folks, coaches ought to go take some sort of trauma training that helps them be more sensitive and informed.
• 37:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's just the ethical thing to do, even if you're an executive leadership coach.
• 38:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my partner, she has no interest in doing any type of therapeutic work with clients.
• 38:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: No interest at all.
• 38:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't get near it.
• 38:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: She refers out quickly.
• 38:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's very comfortable with that.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: But for her to know the signs is still important.
• 38:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, that's one thing I want to share.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, so many of us, most of us, not all of us, had experiences when we were younger that when we were overwhelmed.
• 38:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, trauma is what happens inside of us because of what happens to us.
• 38:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's often being alone and not having the resources to make sense of it.
• 38:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's some sort of fragmentation that happens.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: The situation can't be integrated and therefore it gets trapped in our body.
• 38:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It gets trapped in different parts of our psyche.
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there is an integration that never happened around it.
• 39:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when you start to have a person who might be having a moment of disintegration or defragmentation or something in front of you, one of the most healing things you can do, even though that person is still going to need support, is to meet them with care, validation, and the importance of it's good that we're here and you can get the support you deserve.
• 39:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: and to work with your own parts that you don't panic or send them the message that they're too much.
• 39:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually, right, is in service of you that I want to get you to somebody who is highly trained to support you and care about you and help you now get to integrate and process what happened.
• 39:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that you can be in the world in a much more expansive way so you can love so you can be present so you can be more creative because trauma causes our world to get very small.
• 40:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: and very contained and very protected.
• 40:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not anyone's fault and it's not the protectors fault, but now there's a chance to do something about it.
• 40:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So being able to meet intense vulnerability and validate it and say, we're going to get you support and letting that person have in a corrective emotional experience around their own experience that's coming up.
• 40:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Coaches can do that and they can do that well.
• 40:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, beautiful.
• 40:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess, and I'm curious what you think about the couple of questions come up.
• 40:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll ask this one first, the importance of understanding about our nervous systems.
• 40:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned, Debtana.
• 40:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: And understanding things like orientation.
• 40:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: So all the things you just said and it be helping a client to just kind of,
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: ground a little bit more without imposing that you should ground onto that person in the moment.
• 41:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: But knowing some things like, you know, I've found that before with clients, where it's like, let's just take a moment to look around this space and just see if there's anything that your attention gets drawn to that feels
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, you're cured, and then they can start to regulate through that, which helps them then in the transition talking about referral or, you know, having not leave the session and completely dysregulates.
• 41:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think I've only done that once or twice in 15 years of coaching, but still it was fantastic in that moment.
• 41:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: So again, you know, the caveat here is
• 41:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: not to kind of you've got any any little thing like that you also need to kind of be very attuned in the way you use it that it's not you know being imposed on somebody is like something they should do to change them.
• 42:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're working, you're working on what is, you know, trying to be careful of the message you're sending them.
• 42:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 42:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, Deb Dana's work is based on Stephen Purgis's work and Stephen Purgis's son.
• 42:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember his name.
• 42:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I put out a recent book that's lovely.
• 42:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but first and foremost,
• 42:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we are mammals, we co-regulate.
• 42:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some systems don't really, they weren't taught to co-regulate and they try to auto-regulate.
• 42:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: They try to regulate themselves and they get overwhelmed and that doesn't work.
• 42:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things the coach can do is really know their own nervous system.
• 42:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what is happening in my system as the person across from me,
• 42:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: is starting to get dysregulated.
• 42:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, and what I'd love to do, Joel's, I'd love to get some generalities, but in our time together, there's no way I can give, of course, and you know, there's no way I can give people, here's how to handle a dysregulated client.
• 43:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, exactly.
• 43:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're not teaching people in this moment, what to do, we're just giving a sense of,
• 43:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, it's like a what's possible here and then we should go away and, you know, train, you know, to become trauma-informed, et cetera.
• 43:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Beautifully, but step for me step one is I really check my nervous system.
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I slow down.
• 43:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I slow down my breathing.
• 43:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really present.
• 43:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm letting them know that I'm not getting dysregulated because they're dysregulated.
• 43:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want them to hear I'm right there
• 43:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: If they're in a hyper state, if they're like getting manic.
• 43:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I am helping them, I'm connecting with them cognitively to really like some of what you're talking about.
• 44:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here, are you able to take me in?
• 44:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you able to take in what's around you?
• 44:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's in service of that part that's getting very activated.
• 44:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to see it as the nervous system too.
• 44:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is going to help the nervous system start to release a little bit?
• 44:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Stephen Levine talks about
• 44:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we're being in a car accident.
• 44:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: and he's there on the ground and his nervous system is doing all these things and there was a woman who came up with a nurse.
• 44:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I may not have a story exactly right, but I think I'm close.
• 44:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she was just like I'm here with you and she stayed connected while he went through the process of what his nervous system needed to do.
• 44:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: What we often do is try to stop the nervous system,
• 44:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so how's your nervous system?
• 44:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you able to connect with a person across from you?
• 45:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what's going to help them start to just come down a little bit in their activation?
• 45:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of my mentors talked about, you know, she had a woman who had just been in a car accident and she held hands with her and they jumped up and down.
• 45:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it now, release some of that energy because a lot of this is energy.
• 45:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of your cognitive interventions are not going to work, but we're talking about working with the body more, we're talking about, you know, can you move your toes, can you move your hands a little bit, I'm right here with you, we're taking our time, we're letting them slowly start to come back.
• 45:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there are things, you know, there are things to do, and you know, a really good trauma training program, again, versus being informed and sensitive,
• 45:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: can help you in those moments that I love what you said it's happened twice in 15 years.
• 45:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: The thing is is you don't want it to happen and then you're like, oh, what do I do?
• 45:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now you get dysregulated and they see you dysregulated.
• 46:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to dysregulate that more and, you know, it's
• 46:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I really highly recommend getting that training and the resources that are out there and so much good information out there now today that people can get.
• 46:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, beautiful.
• 46:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's super helpful.
• 46:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I love hearing about this and yeah, again, like I hope this inspires people to go and train more and get more informed and the second question that came up was around.
• 46:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: the difference between someone experiencing an emotion that comes up.
• 46:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is, you know, it's very unique to each person, but the difference between someone experiencing an emotion as opposed to a hurt part coming up, you know, I've had.
• 46:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: coaching clients where something just happened to my family member and you know it would have been right to kind of go back to the leadership topic is like this was just really present so We just gave space for them to just name what was here in relationship to that and again it was regulating it was that the emotion moved through and we could just welcome what was arising and
• 47:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, was that a part in them that was activated?
• 47:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Could could well have been?
• 47:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, it was very valuable and for me felt well within the scope of the coaching to help them just presence that that emotion that was there.
• 47:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, could you could, yeah, do you see a difference between just there being these emotions that can show up in her part?
• 47:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, with the young tender parts, like we talk about the burdens and trauma, there is, I'm trying to remember where I heard this.
• 48:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can give the person credit, but I think the name will come to me, but there is some concern in the trauma field that we're calling everything trauma.
• 48:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And trauma is something that gets lodged in the nervous system, gets lodged in the body, it gets lodged in the psyche.
• 48:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, again, being trauma-trained, informed and sensitive, helps you start to delineate that a little bit because life is hard, where humans, we have emotions.
• 48:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have days when we are not doing well.
• 48:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's not like a coach is only about positivity and self-improvement and how do we help you become great like that coaching does is able to work with the experience people are having.
• 48:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: which can be hard upsetting, you know, if somebody is in an environment or work environment, where somebody is being overbearing and demeaning and shaming or their a person in a marginalized identity and they're constantly dealing with power dynamics and structural
• 49:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: that are harming them and packing them, we can make space to work with that and be with that and understand that.
• 49:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there could be a lot of emotion there.
• 49:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and we have to kind of watch for that cultural burden of emotions are bad, right?
• 49:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's patriarchy.
• 49:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Patriarchy very early teaches boys first and then girls to not be connected to their emotion.
• 49:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you are connected to your emotion, girls are given lots of labels of being hysterical or crazy or out of control, and there's a lot of labels put on voice who later become men if they're emotional.
• 50:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So emotions are critical to our survival.
• 50:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're important for living and feeling alive, and they give us really good information.
• 50:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is not trauma, necessarily.
• 50:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: What I find is that, and I really don't find this in my work because I can do both, but I find it in supporting other coaches and talking to my partner, if a person can't move through an experience, if they get stuck on it, and it's intense and emotional, there's something deeper there that probably needs the attention and the container that a therapist provides.
• 50:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you have a relationship with them, I think of it a lot, Joel, around this idea of a container, the internal container.
• 50:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do they have the internal container that can hold discomfort, upset, uncertainty, overwhelm, confusion, developmental edges can their container hold that?
• 51:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: If their container can't hold that, they need a therapist.
• 51:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: They need somebody to understand what kept that container from being formed.
• 51:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: and how to develop and strengthen their container so they can be with what's happening to them in their life.
• 51:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some people have that container and then a coach is able to help them integrate and process what's happening in their life in the service of removing the constraint and moving into self-leadership, moving into integrating it and being different in the world.
• 51:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, where I want to go in the program following Symphony of Self, I love Symphony of Self.
• 51:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to give you a lot of credit and the people on your team and the people you had into present.
• 51:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was really a lovely program.
• 52:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the next step for me is getting people more familiar with their own system.
• 52:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I have found transformative in my work is the more depth I get with my own system, the more I can create possibility and hold space for people sitting across from me.
• 52:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a parallel process.
• 52:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, am I comfortable sitting in front of somebody who's overwhelmed and then gets blended with a part that says, Joel, you need to help me fix this.
• 52:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't being fixed.
• 52:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not changing.
• 52:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: They bring in that sense of urgency because they're feeling hopeless.
• 52:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: can I sit with that?
• 52:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I be patient with that?
• 52:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I meet that?
• 52:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I validate that?
• 52:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then can I get underneath it?
• 52:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you afraid would happen if we never fix this?
• 52:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is the hope here?
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's the fear here?
• 52:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I got to be my container needs to be able to hold that container for a little bit.
• 52:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then as they learn to see that we can hold that their container gets even stronger.
• 53:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we do in therapy too, but it's just a much slower, careful, client-led process.
• 53:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: We move at the speed of trust.
• 53:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some systems don't trust for good reason.
• 53:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Other systems haven't had the same experiences, developing trust is a little bit easier.
• 53:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when I'm consulting coaches, I'm asking them to be assessing the container of the person sitting across from them.
• 53:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when my partner will say, let's say a consultee will say, this is the fifth time I've been through this issue with the person and it keeps coming up.
• 53:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, there's something historical there that needs to be addressed.
• 53:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I would recommend, again, not leaving them, but referring them out for how many of our sessions it takes, be in relationship with that therapist, get a release, so you can talk to them about it.
• 54:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then after the therapist has worked with that person for a few sessions, collaborate with them and see what their take is on the system because they have training for that or get into a psychiatrist or get into a psychologist for an assessment or get them to a bodywork, you know, like our work can be a very lonely business.
• 54:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's part of the, again, these are my parts jewel, but I think it's part of the Western medical cultural model, the machine that says, keep everybody in isolation.
• 54:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if we're working collaboratively with folks, we can really do service to an individual, because it's unrealistic to think they're gonna come see me for an hour a week or an hour every other week, and that's necessarily gonna be enough for them to get what they need.
• 54:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: We need to broaden our scope.
• 54:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the other thing I want to do in the second half of the program is I want to talk sometimes not so much about the individual, but broaden the scope.
• 55:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to bring in family legacy, impact, cultural impact, biology, identity, expand that scope, eco, the world around us, the planet, like broaden our scope and get into more some collective healing and collective support.
• 55:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the coach is an important part of that, a critical part of that, in my opinion.
• 55:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just knowing kind of where you fit in the puzzle at that time and space in that moment.
• 55:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: So you just brought some really important topics in the maturity of the coach.
• 55:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: But let's stay where you just left off.
• 55:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love what you're saying.
• 55:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've been thinking about this that in an enlightened future, we'll have like teams of practitioners who
• 55:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: can, you know, one person can kind of be connected to that team and the right person can step in at any moment with their speciality and their, you know, who they are as a person that can help that person with exactly what they need.
• 56:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because, yeah, it's to think that I can help all people with everything is, you know, it's just not going to happen that way.
• 56:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's, I think we're close to breaking out of some of the models we've trapped ourselves in, you know, like the hour, once every week, the hour, once every two weeks.
• 56:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think technology will play a role in it, but I think, yeah, there's, there's going to be interesting kind of
• 56:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: innovation around teams, you know, teams of practitioners.
• 56:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: And could you say more about broadening the scope, itself, you know, and what you're going to be teaching?
• 56:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what's, because let me just before you answer that, the other thing is we've kind of trapped ourselves in this notion of hyperindividuality, like, and I think that's part of the malaise,
• 57:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: that we're experiencing is people feel, I've got to do it all myself, they feel lonely and disconnected.
• 57:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's a kind of worldview shift taking place, which I think IFS is kind of part of this kind of transition.
• 57:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a reason why it's getting so popular right now, like it's tapping into something.
• 57:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: So could you say something about
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: what I'm sharing and the important sub broadening scope.
• 57:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: What is that?
• 57:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate that.
• 57:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to both appreciate IFS and I want to say this is one of IFS's growing edges.
• 57:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because in,
• 57:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: the individualistic cultures that we not all of us, but many of us live in and not all ethnic groups, some ethnic groups are really collective and they support each other and we need wisdom without appropriate misappropriation, we need the wisdom from different cultures of how to do this.
• 58:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: But,
• 58:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you come in to see me and I'm like, how do I help you remove your constraints so you can be different?
• 58:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what I can say even if I don't mean to the impact can be your the problem.
• 58:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I really encourage people to read resume menicums work.
• 58:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we de-context my grandmother's hands.
• 58:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we de-contextualize the situations.
• 58:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: We de-contextualize things.
• 58:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we make it about the individual.
• 58:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And systems of oppression want us to do that.
• 58:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: They want us to stay individual because if we get collective,
• 58:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: and we start calling things out from a collective place with power in the collective.
• 58:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is going to really be hard for systems of power.
• 59:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I wanna say we do need our internal container so that we can be a part of the collective.
• 59:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I do see the place for individual work.
• 59:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: but we also need an external container.
• 59:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who were mammals?
• 59:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: We need to matter.
• 59:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: We need to feel like we belong.
• 59:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what's your external container?
• 59:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who's on your team?
• 59:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I worked without a lesson, and my wife would do this, because she works a lot with women.
• 59:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was one of her passions is empowering women and leadership.
• 59:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like who's on your board of directors, your own board of directors?
• 59:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Who do you go to, who's your champion, who believes in you, and helps you so that you're not having to figure all this out yourself.
• 59:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to do that, we ourselves have to hold a larger lens.
• 59:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where IFS can get tricky.
• 59:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Thomas Hubel is doing a lot of this collective work, a lot of community activists are doing this collective, beautiful collective work.
• 1:00:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: When I work with you and I start with your issue and I hear it and I reflect it back and we pick a part to work with and we work with that part.
• 1:00:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: The challenge is that part doesn't understand the water it swims in.
• 1:00:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the implicit bite.
• 1:00:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: We just, we see, we experience our experience, the lens of our experience.
• 1:00:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is where I think we as the coach offer, we invite, we don't tell.
• 1:00:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: but we invite, what else is happening that's larger than this?
• 1:00:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening outside of your world?
• 1:00:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening in that organization?
• 1:00:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Rarely do I work with somebody in an organization to do I not find what they're experiencing is being experienced in the organization?
• 1:00:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're not necessarily the problem.
• 1:00:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening in the organization is the problem.
• 1:01:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: People that are dealing with external constraints, when they're dealing with systems that are working against them, but we are taught to take responsibility for that, to make meaning of that about ourselves, because we're meaning making machines.
• 1:01:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when you help somebody detach from that, making meaning and taking responsibility for,
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: it can be liberating.
• 1:01:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now you've got the rage, the anger, that's really needed.
• 1:01:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've got the grief.
• 1:01:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can really address some of the helplessness because we don't have power individually over somebody's system.
• 1:01:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Need to acknowledge that.
• 1:01:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the myths of self-energy is that if I get into all this self-energy, I can change everything outside of my world.
• 1:01:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not true.
• 1:01:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's true for a lot of white people who have been in a lot of positions of privilege.
• 1:01:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not necessarily true for people that are in marginalized positions.
• 1:01:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what we can work with is the meaning you may because of those systems of power.
• 1:01:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or what's it like to be seeing our planet being used up and destroyed all around us?
• 1:02:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now there's existential anxiety that we're not talking about.
• 1:02:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it requires and for a new coach, for a new therapist, this language and can be very overwhelming.
• 1:02:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So start where you are.
• 1:02:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to figure it all out.
• 1:02:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, part of learning, and I believe the person who started Hacomi, Ron Kurtz talked about, you know, we always have to start.
• 1:02:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: We learn a protocol and we're really diligent to the protocol.
• 1:02:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how we learn it.
• 1:02:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then once we get it in our bones, we throw it away.
• 1:02:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's still there, but now we can be more organic with it.
• 1:02:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So start with where you are, but what I want to invite folks to be thinking about, what are the larger systems that play?
• 1:02:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: what else is impacting the client and how do we support the client and getting creative and how to expand their external container.
• 1:03:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's holding them and helping them get the connection they need, helping them find their purpose.
• 1:03:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what's tricky about the model.
• 1:03:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: In my opinion, like if IFS is going to be a model of liberation, we need to help parts sit in a
• 1:03:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a client may come to you wanting to go one direction, but as you do the work with them, you may find it doesn't actually align with their deeper sense of purpose or their integrity or their essence, all of those their presence, which I consider umbrellas of when we use that word self.
• 1:03:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they're going to be in a difficult spot to decide, do they keep going down that road?
• 1:03:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or do they get aligned with what's inside?
• 1:03:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I've supported people who have made both choices.
• 1:03:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some that have decided not to.
• 1:03:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And some that decided to change like we re-contract so to speak.
• 1:04:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's tricky business then when you get to those deeper questions.
• 1:04:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Could just to get my head round back.
• 1:04:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: the, it sounds like what you're, in those moments you're reaching the edge of the model in terms of, um, where it, how it aligns with.
• 1:04:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: where the client might want to go as opposed to where the model might want to take them.
• 1:04:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that, do I have, could you say a bit more about the, now I appreciate that very much because what the, the model can definitely go there.
• 1:04:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: The thing is is that we can get caught up in our own way of being hyper individualistic in using the model.
• 1:04:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Gotcha, right?
• 1:04:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't say that so clearly.
• 1:04:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm really glad you asked for clarification.
• 1:04:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: The model can go, can handle the expansiveness of the individual and the collective.
• 1:04:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, working with families and couples, and
• 1:04:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: employees, you know, colleagues, there is a way for systems to drop into what's happening inside of me, what's, you know, what protective strategy am I trying to use, what's my hope in that, what's my fear of I don't use that strategy, then how's that landing on the other person?
• 1:05:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's ways to work this collectively for sure.
• 1:05:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we are so indoctrinated, like I said, it's the water we swim in, we can get so indoctrinated into self-energy in you, the internal attachment in you.
• 1:05:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get so solid that now I go out into the world and I'm not messy.
• 1:05:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you say what I mean, and actually we're all messy.
• 1:05:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like the more we can start
• 1:05:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: connecting around our messiness and our uncertainty and our lack of knowing, which actually makes space for something to unfold?
• 1:05:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm talking about, Joel.
• 1:06:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is I think something important in terms of, you know, like I was on a retreat this year where the teacher was talking about our, um,
• 1:06:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, being even keeled, you know, like, that was his experience, you know, and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm so, I'm so committed to that as a kind of, you know, principle that, like, I can, if I'm feeling dysregulated, if I'm feeling uncertain and unclear and reactive,
• 1:06:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: than I can shift back into presence, you know, by including what's here.
• 1:06:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there is actually a profound beautiful truth in that actually that I don't want to throw that out.
• 1:06:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's also where is that mixed in with our addiction to being clear, you know, to being in the right place or, you know,
• 1:07:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, we should always be in self with a capital S and that that's where, and then suddenly we've made it a thing, we've kind of reified it, and it's now kind of fixed and static as opposed to, and it's kind of reinforcing that separate hyper individualistic identity as opposed to what I think you're pointing to, which is, yeah, like on a fundamental level,
• 1:07:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: We are deeply relational and that we are, you know, we're co-eurysing really, like we've had Dan Seagull on the podcast talking about Moe and I think this is, yeah, the place where I, you know, so this I'm kind of maybe this is a bit of a segue, but I want to bring it in, it's like on the
• 1:07:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's powerful that we are able to start to recognize the deep patterning, the interconnections, that there are cultural context, you know, that we've got lineages and we, there's been a pressure and
• 1:08:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: or kinds of harm caused by groups to other groups.
• 1:08:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're all culturally situated with inside of these systems that so we're opening to that.
• 1:08:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then on the other hand, how do we do that in a way that we don't reinforce a sense of victimhood?
• 1:08:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like not to say they're not victims, because they're all, but I mean more like,
• 1:08:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that I noticed in my own life there was a powerful shift where, you know, I noticed like, I, and it, I think it's, it gets to the nervous system topic again, where, you know, I would be in a certain state and it would be like, well, it's all happening to me and it's the world's fault.
• 1:09:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's my child's fault, it's my wife's fault, and then
• 1:09:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm blind.
• 1:09:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm persecuted by them.
• 1:09:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then now I'm othering that person.
• 1:09:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: So this is the kind of trickiness with the privilege conversation because suddenly I'm a white guy and I'm therefore I'm just privileged, you know, whereas I also suffer and some people might say, well, you're not allowed to because you're a privilege white guy.
• 1:09:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it just gets quite, I think we've got to be nuanced with it.
• 1:09:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so my point is this is where I felt like self actually comes in.
• 1:09:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: In a way, there's a place where we can include all of the,
• 1:09:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: the kind of hurt that's been caused, but without polarizing around it.
• 1:10:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just as we are individually, like polarised parts can come up and now suddenly I can rather than being in one part fighting the other, I can be in a space where they can start to be seen.
• 1:10:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: How could we do that on a collective level where we can honor those hurt?
• 1:10:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: But then we're not in a place where we're suddenly polarizing
• 1:10:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: reducing people to labels, or generalizing people, you know?
• 1:10:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it?
• 1:10:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't have clear answers to it, but it seems like we need a way through that isn't polarizing.
• 1:10:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah.
• 1:10:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let me see if I can track that because I saw some kind of an arc through it, where you went just there.
• 1:10:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So one thing is, you know, I am always curious
• 1:10:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, I'm just regulated.
• 1:10:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Something's happening in me.
• 1:10:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to get to a calm state and now I'm OK. And the question to me is, like, what are you afraid?
• 1:11:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: What have happened if you hadn't gotten to that calm state?
• 1:11:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or what did you buy past?
• 1:11:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not.
• 1:11:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you didn't.
• 1:11:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's just a question.
• 1:11:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a assumption.
• 1:11:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what did you bypass in going there?
• 1:11:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I really love Steve Marches comment, you know, I love Ty frame this because we've talked about this in IFS from the beginning, but he framed it in experience, distant versus experience near.
• 1:11:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: When you went to that calm place, were you still experienced near with everything you were just holding or did you actually get experience distant?
• 1:11:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you actually find, because when we unblend, unblending for me, like that's a word that's tricky for me.
• 1:11:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't always like it.
• 1:11:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: To me, it's being in relationship with instead of being completely in it.
• 1:12:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like, unblending is not ending relationship.
• 1:12:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's having some space to then be with it in a more connected way.
• 1:12:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when you move into a Wii or you move into a calm state, are you still with, so that's one thing I wanted to say.
• 1:12:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm asking people, what do you afraid would happen if you didn't go into that space?
• 1:12:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if there's anything in there around the burden or the fear of collapse or the case may be, can we talk about that, can we get curious about that and see what we can unfold?
• 1:12:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because lots of practices, beautiful practices are around being with the depth of our experience.
• 1:12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: without being overwhelmed or taken over by it.
• 1:12:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the first point I'd like to kind of address.
• 1:12:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: The second point, yes, there's lots of language and labels around identities and privilege and that sort of thing.
• 1:13:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you set a key word in there to me that often people move away from or don't really address which is the other thing.
• 1:13:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: is where I'm going with that conversation, calling in and wanting to stay in relationship or is it bothering?
• 1:13:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's one question I hold.
• 1:13:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: The other question I hold is, how deeply do I know the experience of the other person?
• 1:13:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, and I loved Dr. Ken Hardie's work, but when he talks about privilege selves and subjugated selves, we all have privilege, and we all have subjugated selves.
• 1:13:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've all had experience of being subjugated, but when we're in the presence of somebody that's in a subjugated position, really we put our privilege experience aside, and we center that.
• 1:14:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: in in in the goal of being in relationship and what I have found is that when I get very curious and from a place of humility learn more about the experience of a person sitting across from me I get less worried about labels and whether I'm being included or not included but it requires back to what I said before which we have to talk about more my opinion the model
• 1:14:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I sit in that discomfort that the other person is not going to center me, not going to center my experience, not a center my past harm, but it's really going to be about them.
• 1:14:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when I do that, then I learn more about me and I'll go back to that Zimski's work about
• 1:14:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then I can really get to know my experience, my culture, I can meet somebody else again.
• 1:15:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: It goes back to my work.
• 1:15:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let me see how that's landing because we could have three podcasts, four podcasts on it's really good.
• 1:15:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to touch on it and I really don't want to in any way be complicit with this idea that not saying that you're saying this at all.
• 1:15:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying it's out in the world that because I'm privileged, I'm being harmed by people, you know,
• 1:15:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: experiences are being centered over mine and therefore I now have no place in the world.
• 1:15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that is an argument of the systems of power that want to keep us separate.
• 1:15:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, yeah, go ahead.
• 1:15:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say this last thing.
• 1:15:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I love what Beth Demsky says, we need to be really hard on systems of power and gentle with each other.
• 1:16:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wanted to let that one just kind of land in the space.
• 1:16:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's beautiful.
• 1:16:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: And leave it all that out.
• 1:16:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love what you're sharing.
• 1:16:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just sitting here listening very deeply.
• 1:16:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I can feel the level of care and discernment that you've dedicated to exploring this.
• 1:16:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think,
• 1:16:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is a really important topic because, you know, I'm guilty of bypassing spiritual bypassing.
• 1:16:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: I've done, and I'm still doing it, I still do it, but I do it a lot less than I used to, and
• 1:16:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think it's, it's almost like a kind of, if we're not careful, the, any model we take on, whether that's a meditation practice or IFS can be used to bypass, you know, it can be co-opted in order to avoid the discomfort.
• 1:17:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: And my, my bias is that the discomfort is where the,
• 1:17:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: evolution will take place, you know, that there's actually a lot of discomfort surfacing in the world right now.
• 1:17:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: I've heard some people say to me, the reason that's taking place is because there's more light in the world than there's ever been and it's allowing, you know, these systems of oppression and, you know, we use the light and dark metaphor the dark to come in to be, to be met, but I think
• 1:17:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: incredibly important that we can, that we're not using anything to distance ourselves from experience or one another.
• 1:17:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think my, you know, if I share like my vulnerability that gets touched is my parts that get triggered, it's less about fearing that I won't, I will be displaced from the centre, because actually,
• 1:18:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: feels kind of relieving to be in a world where there's a re-centering of certain cultures and wisdoms that have been marginalized.
• 1:18:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I feel like you mentioned patriarchy and so there's something kind of tiring about the systems.
• 1:18:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's like the vulnerability comes when I'm just called like a cis white man, you know.
• 1:18:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then that's like,
• 1:18:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: how I'm being late, related to it.
• 1:18:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a whole generation of young men who felt disenfranchised from being told they're the problem.
• 1:18:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't want to be complicit in that either.
• 1:18:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just a very nuanced topic.
• 1:18:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just really sat with a lot of gratitude for the
• 1:19:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: the way you've immersed yourself in this work as we come to the end of our conversation.
• 1:19:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: And a really valuing the situating the framework, the model, within how we hold it as a practitioner and the necessity for our maturity, which includes broadening our scope of understanding and becoming aware of the cultural,
• 1:19:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: kind of conditions that we've imbibed within is like Steve who's been a mentor of mine has this saying which I think he's you know I've been influenced by other people and I can't name those names I don't know but it's like the their transformation that's curing is not actually happening in the individual really it's happening in the culture that that's
• 1:19:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: where really the, which is kind of a strange thing, when you first hear it, it's kind of strange.
• 1:19:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like that doesn't make any sense, but I think it's pointing towards what we're talking about that there's this deep intimacy between us moment by moment and how we arise.
• 1:20:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there's anything you wanna share as I kind of closing, kind of, I don't wanna call it a statement, but just to close
• 1:20:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I'd so deeply appreciate you speaking about your own vulnerability and what touches you.
• 1:20:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would love for folks to consider reading Carol Gilligan's work around her book, latest book, in a human voice.
• 1:20:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: She really talks about patriarchy and, you know,
• 1:20:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just take a look at that work and see what if it impacts folks around what patriarchy does to boys so early and that it's the systems we need to really go after not each
• 1:21:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: to get back in touch with their bodies, back in touch with their vulnerability, back in touch with their essence and their voices of resistance, not towards other women or other men, but towards the systems that told them their value was in what they do and how they're seen in the world, versus finding their value in connection and in embodiment.
• 1:21:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And to me, it becomes a foundation for so much pain and hurt in these young men.
• 1:21:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just appreciate you speaking to that.
• 1:21:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, just really touched me to hear that.
• 1:22:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, I'm just holding a lot of gratitude, getting to be here with you and getting to
• 1:22:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: the efficiency of language.
• 1:22:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of what I share is not right or not exactly said and if it really landed poorly with someone, please let me know.
• 1:22:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to hear about that and keep my own learning going.
• 1:22:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: But appreciate the work you're doing.
• 1:22:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Appreciate getting to connect with you.
• 1:22:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, maybe we can talk again sometime.
• 1:22:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I love that.
• 1:22:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And what can we find out more about your work?
• 1:22:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: As well, if this people you feel inspired to?
• 1:22:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm kind of a lullite, like I don't really have any social media presence.
• 1:22:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have much of a website.
• 1:22:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, um,
• 1:22:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I, you know, there's a few offerings I'm doing here and there, but I mean, I am on LinkedIn, but I haven't updated in a year, so I have to kind of have a part of the little embarrassed about that in today's world, but I've always just kind of been a dinosaur when it comes to those things.
• 1:23:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, they can email me, they can maybe go to LinkedIn and I'm working on getting all that updated.
• 1:23:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: nice.
• 1:23:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just a little that I appreciate that and also I had someone talking about the phrase Lodite and did you know that it actually in back in the day was actually a huge component because they Lodites were people who
• 1:23:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: we're very discerning about what they took on, and how it impacted their culture and their ways of living.
• 1:23:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think we need to re-appropriate.
• 1:23:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's actually becoming, we should start to reconsider seeing a look at where they are coming in and everything to have that level of discernment.
• 1:24:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I appreciate that, because I'm very cautious
• 1:24:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: marketing my yeah there's I have lots of parts up around so thank you for that I love that reframe and yeah appreciate it thanks David
• 1:24:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Here we are, we're at the end of the podcast.
• 1:24:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just a heads up again.
• 1:24:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coachesrising.com.
• 1:24:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: Put your name in the sign-up box there.
• 1:24:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: You'll also find some of our other offerings our online trainings for coaches there.
• 1:24:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: And just want to end by wishing you well, and I'll see you again next time.