Latest / Beheaded / The Unlucky Knight of Friday the 13th | The Knights Templar

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The Unlucky Knight of Friday the 13th | The Knights Templar · Beheaded

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to season three, episode six.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Megan Moore.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always like afraid you're not gonna know which episode it is.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I actually always like go back and forth in my brain for a second.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm impressed because I usually choose the right one.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's only been like a couple times where we really like failed starting the episode.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember that?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, mostly it takes us like five good starts, and then once we're in, we're in.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're in, yeah.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: But that first moment.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Occasionally.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm in the wrong tone, you just stare at me like that.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that time the the time before this that you didn't hear, Megan just introduced a whole different tone of voice.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, what the what do I do?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hello! She's like, hello.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, mmm, mm-hmm.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Who am I?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have presents sitting in front of me.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Crinkly paper presents.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, we talked about those two episodes ago, but we are exchanging books today.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't say today, we actually are delayed on this, but we're here now.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Christmas.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of Christmas still.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're only two weeks later.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a New Year's gift.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a Epiphany.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a 2020 U gift.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: 2020.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Happy 2020.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: We have like multiple gifts though.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, who starts?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: How do we do that?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Megan starts.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Is this what you stole from the office?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Am I allowed?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need to cut that out?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I may have taken something from my office from a 1920s themed room.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: To the lighthouse by Virginia Wolf.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And look how cool.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: 1932.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love it when people write in it.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um Allison Farmer?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Paris.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, 1932.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that cool?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it says it again.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Allison Farmer, June 1932.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Paris.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: This was in our office.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was in the Art Deco room.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is like an original 1930s copy of Virginia Wolf to the Lighthouse.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Which have you read this book?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, I haven't.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's very trainable.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sadly, I haven't read any Virginia Wolf books, and that's a huge like issue I have.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: I actually really like Virginia Wolf.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: You have to focus when you read it, but I really do like it.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: But the book looks like wallpaper.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't it nice?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's so cute.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So when I okay, so I decorated this room in our office.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for stealing this for me.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: I thought of you when I stole it.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, when I was originally doing the room, I only got books that were like either published or from the 1920s.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, like it's very intentional.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I just like picked up a bunch of random old-looking books.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like everything is from the 1920s in that room.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do you notice that the title on the spot is upside down?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's weird.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like cool.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: I do like it.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yay.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Open up um your little one.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Small one.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like we did something similar.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: We did little we did.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: We literally're the same size all the time.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: We did two books and we weren't even we were making up for not having books, I suppose, earlier.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you're wrapping paper.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, look, it looks so similar too.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the same, but it looks the same.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh my gosh.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is Tales from the Arabian Nights by Richard Burton.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is really cool.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: The first page falls out.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, yeah.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now you open the bigger one.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't this fun you guys get to listen to us opening up our own gifts?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: This is great.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is great radio.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Listen as I open my gift.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this one is from the book gallery that we went to.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh! It's the private lives of the Tudor Monarchs.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's also an upside-down spine, I think.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Why did they do that?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that weird?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I love I love this little like iconography.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a dark burgundy fabric cover.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: But the side has gold emblem like of the Tudor rose.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: It has the Tudor Rose, but then it also has like a dungeon gate.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: With chains.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: It looks like Trader's Gate coming down.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And what is that?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a pomegranate for Catherine of Aragon?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Catherine of Aragon was represented by the pomegranate.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I like this.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: It smells like a library book.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Someone left their mail.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: I love used books when you get weird shit inside of it.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Some sort of mailer.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I love it.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: They don't discriminate.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: I was struggling finding a vintage one.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love worrying.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm surprised you found that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, what is this beautiful book?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, it looks like Hobbit.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: It is the Hobbit.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's the Hobbit.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, there's like a weird form of Elvish on the cover.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is really cool.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not used.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I love it though.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it looks it's like a nice leather-bound green book with like uh yeah, like the Hobbit font on it.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it is the original Hobbit book.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it so great?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we buy our books at this used bookstore in Phoenix called the book gallery, which we've talked about before.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's the best bookstore ever.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've posted about it before.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have to look at our old post, but it's yeah, it's the coolest bookstore like in Phoenix.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's huge.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, so you know, when last time we went, we were in like the English history section, yeah.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: They completely moved it.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to like find it again, and yeah, it was just kind of it's very messy in there.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: I did lie to you because I was like, your book's on its way, making it sound like I ordered it, but really it was like I was spiritually on my way to the bookstore.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, I went there and I had a really long conversation.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you went to the book galeries.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Where I got both of them.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I had a really nice conversation with the owner.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Have you talked to him, the guy who checks you out?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think I talked to a young girl who was there.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: She's also works there, but the owner is this older gentleman who you can tell he just loves books.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And he's so nice because, first of all, when you check out, he actually just sits at a desk and there's a little chair that you can sit at.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's almost like he wants the conversation.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So you sit down while you check out.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And he kind of looks at all the books you buy and he knows each one, like, oh, I just got this one on the shelf.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so I actually I bought that book for myself, the Edgar Allan Poe.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I was too tempted not to.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And he looks at it, he's like, oh, there's the bug on it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then he, I was like, Yeah, I didn't know what the bug was for.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is it like a scarab beetle?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's um one of the stores actually read it last night, and he goes into this whole thing.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, when I was a little boy, I read this book, and he like went into this whole thing about it.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: We went on um kind of like down a rabbit hole about Charlie the Chocolate Factory and Roll Doll and Willy Wonka, and then like Tony Deb.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like we had a really good conversation about different things.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know I cheated, I bought something for myself.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, this is awesome.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a very spooky picture I just opened up.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but evidently this is like the same publisher, so they do like nice.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: I love these.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I could spend so much time in that store.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I know I went obviously to buy you a gift, but I was there just like I know, that's why I felt bad I bought myself a gift too.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I think this is supposed to be for someone else, but yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love these have meaning to them and they are old and they have writing in them, and I love them.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Elizabeth.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know exactly what I like.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for my gifts.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Almost as excited, and I'm sure you'll appreciate this as when the Harry Potter 20th Reunion came out.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I cried.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: That was good.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I cried tears of joy, I cried tears of sadness.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: All the emotion, tears of confusion.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I was like, I should really watch this with Megan.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then like I was about to go on a run, like I was almost at the door, and my sister is like, Oh, I'm just gonna watch the Harry Potter reunion real quick.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Just watch it and turn it on.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh, okay.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't like, I didn't want to be like, no, wait for me.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't want, you know, I didn't want to run out the door and not partake, so I just sat there and I let my run be delayed for two hours because I was like, I want to watch this.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was so good.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: What was your favorite part?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think it was when they were showing or talking about like how they were casting for the kids, you know, and like how they found Harry Potter, and you know, like how they they I think all the other roles were pretty much set, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they still couldn't find Harry.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was a cool part because it just reminds you of like when you're a kid and thinking of all the possibilities of things that could be, and like, oh no, that'll never work, or I'll never be picked, and then like little things start to come true.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, this on a very grand scale, but it was so cool to see their little dreams just kind of like happen.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: I loved all the behind the scene footage.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: The whole I I don't want to give any spoilers to for people who are gonna watch it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a Harry Potter fan, figure out how to get HBO.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you have HBO, great.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do like a free trial.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you do a free trial, if you need to make a friend, I I also use someone.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you too.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I can't I can't help you.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have a login.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: We planned on watching it together.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the whole they do like a part of like in memory of those who passed since the first film came out, and of course Alan Rickman.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't even realize Helen McCroy.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Mean either.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I totally I had no idea.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: When um I think it was M Emma Watson mentioned Helen, she's like, she's like, oh, you know, and Helen passed.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wait, what?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's Helen.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then I I realized I was like, oh Narcissa, she was a really good actress.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: I like her too in um what's the show?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: The Peaky Fucking Blind is Peaky Blind, yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: The Peaky Blind.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, anyways, that was really, really special.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was worried because they could have really butchered it.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: And this was kind of a sensitive thing.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And for diehard Harry Potter fans, so I mean, Elizabeth's 33, I'm 32, Emma Watson, who plays for Miney,'s 31, Daniel Radcliffe is 32, he's a month older than me, or two months older.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then Rupert Grant is 33.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we truly grew up with all of them.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: We were the same age as them when they were doing this.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then when each movie came out, they were 13.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was the third year at Hogwarts, we were all 13.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it just continued like that until we were, gosh, 20.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um And they mention that in the documentary.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: They say things like, you know, I don't know ever if you'll ever see, you know, a group of three just like grow up together on screen.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was like 10 years.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 10 years, decade altogether.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, maybe you're fast-forwarding this because you are really sick of us talking about Harry Potter.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Just just read it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and don't say I've watched the movies.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Read it.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Read it.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's a difference.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's such a difference.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just really cool.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like this is like my inspiration to be an author.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And like they always say if you could have anyone at a dinner party, J.K.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Rowling absolutely would be at that dinner table because she made people want to read.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: She made kids want to read.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: She got people excited for a book coming out the same way that they were excited for a new movie to come out.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's pretty that's I don't know if magic is real or not, but I think J.K.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Rowling's got it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think she created, you know, a definitely a magical world that we can all like retreat to and connect on.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it was cool to see, like, even before the movies were out, like all the fandom that just surrounded the first two books, you know?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, yeah, it looked like a giant movie premiere where these kids were just in line and you they didn't even know what again what the actors were gonna look like.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like where this all this wizarding world was gonna go.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: They just knew they loved the first two books, and they just like it had such a connection already to everything in in the Harry Potter world.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of books, um, I have a great transition for you.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, fabulous.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we talk about him very frequently, and I know I've mentioned him several times.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: But one of my favorite authors, Dan Jones.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: The Brad Pitt of historians, we call him.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Just staring at his photo in the book flap right now.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: He's staring back at me.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Dan Jones is the expert and the guru on the Templars.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: The Knights Templar, um, also known as the Knights of the Temple.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is something we've talked about for a while, me and Megan, about like how we're gonna introduce this episode.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: We wanted to specifically mention Dan Jones' book, which is called The Templars: The Rise and Spectacular Fall of God's Holy Warriors.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of cool like myth and mythology kind of wrapped up into this episode.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're gonna focus on kind of one figure throughout it, but also just give you a background on who the Templars were, um, what they believed in, how, again, how they rose throughout Europe, how they gained a lot of influence, and eventually how they met their demise, kind of as a whole, really.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: And we did this last episode where we just talked about the Roman Coliseum executions in full.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a little bit similar, maybe not on quite a grand a scale, but the Knights Templar was an entire group of people, and quite sadly, many of them were executed.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: So while there are some specific people we can talk about and the main figures of the story, um, a lot of this is just going to be about the order in general.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like people throw a around about the Knights Templar often and they're very recognizable, you know who they are.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: But when you actually learn about what did they do, what was their purpose, and who were they, it kind of puts a whole new other meaning on it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: It really does.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I because I don't know about you, but you know, when I had first heard of the Templars, it was probably in the Da Vinci Code movie.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and you're used to seeing the imagery of like the white tunic with the big red cross.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you think of okay, crusades and holy warriors and all of that, but what does that mean?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, what side are they on?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why did they even get to a point where people were questioning uh again their like um devotion to God or their devotion to faith?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we're gonna unpack all that today.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: We got a lot of good stuff.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't tell you either.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think um the other thing I know the Templars from is I I've talked about it a few times, but one of my favorite book series called The Hayman's Daughter.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: The second book in that series is about them finding like the Templars like treasure.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's always about their treasure, right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what's so cool about it, is they have all these myths and legends, which we'll get into.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: But first, um, let's just talk about who they actually were because they were real people.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: The Knights Templar was started way back in 1118 by a French knight.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: He actually started the group with just eight of his relatives and friends.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, including him, there was only nine men that started the order.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: The original crew.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they were originally put together because at this time they had just won Jerusalem back from the Muslims.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: So Jerusalem is now a Christian land again, and there are pilgrims who are traveling back and forth across the Holy Land, which is like through Europe and into into Jerusalem to go see the sacred sites and all of that.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: But the issue was is that there were still Muslim territories.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: So these pilgrims were trying to go through the holy land, but they were being mobbed and thieves were coming at them, and they were being even slaughtered, and it was just a terrible experience.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And here they are, just these Christians trying to go and visit the Holy Land.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: So they started the Nice Templar as a group of men to protect these pilgrims.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's basically their main goal was to get to them, get them across the land safely.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it started with a small group, and then it wasn't until um 1129 that they got a formal endorsement from the Catholic Church.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: So up until then, you're probably wondering, like, okay, how were they making money?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: What were they doing?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um they to kind of take a step back, we'll talk about a little bit what they look like and just who they were as people.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, very iconic is their white tunics.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the white symbol symbolize their purity.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: When they were first initiated into the order, there were basically three things that they had to say an oath to.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was an oath of poverty, an oath of chastity, and an oath of of obedience.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: So they were very hardcore Christians and they lived a very pure life.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they also had very long beards, which is one of their um like very identifiable traits.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, some of them were even up to three feet long.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Jeez.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they have very long beards, and even though they were knights, um, and we'll get into a little bit more about their their military strategy and what they did that was more than just escorting people across the Holy Land.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but surprisingly, only 10% of them were knights.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like others had other positions within the order.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there were um farmers, there were merchants, they were uh, you know, I think priests, like there's all sorts of different professions that you could have within the order.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So while you always think of kind of like we talked about the Roman Coliseum, gladiators, that wasn't all that went on there.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like they weren't just these knights or just these um, you know, you think of for me at least, I think of like knights of the round table, kind of King Arthur looking.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking like hardcore fighting in the in in the middle of battle.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um going back to their tunics though, like regardless of what they did, they all still wore the tunic to show that they were a knight's templar.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but they meant so much, these tunics, that they couldn't eat, they couldn't eat, they couldn't drink, they couldn't even talk to each other if they were not wearing the tunic.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: So they could only interact with their own brothers while wearing the tunic and wearing like the symbol of the Knights Templar.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So eventually they always just kept them on.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: They really weren't seen without them.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the Red Cross, too, on the tunic symbolized um not just obviously their faith, it wasn't just a symbol of Christianity, but it was also red because they were willing to die for their beliefs.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's how devoted they were.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so one other thing too um to note was was they, I don't know if this was necessarily an oath, but they were really never allowed to surrender.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime that they were in battle, they were supposed to fight to the death or fight till you know everyone else is gone.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, they were supposed to fight uh until their last breath.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like no surrender, no turning back, no retreat.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: They were in it for for the entirety of the battle.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why I think they they rose in terms of their um popularity and like and like the legend that surrounds them because they were such fierce warriors.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: There was no turning back once they got engaged in a battle.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And they fought in five crusades.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: So they did they did their fair due diligence, right?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right, their fair share of fighting.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh as Megan mentioned in 1129 is when they really received the Catholic endorsement saying, okay, yes, we acknowledge this group, you know, as a religious order.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at this point, they're kind of going around Europe, gaining influence, and becoming this really wealthy group, and not, as Megan said, not wealthy individually.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't there for personal gain.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was really just their organization became wealthy.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they started to uh kind of establish their first systems of castles and churches and banks throughout Europe.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they started receiving large donations from different royalty all over Europe.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So by 1139, they essentially have just limitless power.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Laws don't apply to them.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: People, you know, hold them in such high regard that they can really impose their will and do anything.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they really didn't abuse this power because again, they didn't go around pillaging, um, nothing for personal gain.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: They were still very humble themselves, only needed what they uh or had what they needed to survive kind of things.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: They were just gaining um, again, wealth for their organization.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I mentioned the banking system.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: They created really the first, again, bank system throughout Europe, and it was really for the safety of the pilgrims, uh, safety of the travelers.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for example, if I'm a traveler and I start off in, I don't know, somewhere Western Europe and I'm trying to make my way to Jerusalem.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: What they did was you could actually go to a Knights Templar bank and you could say, here's all my earthly goods, you know, here's my jewels, here's my coins, and they would say, Great, here's a banknote.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that way you're not carrying these valuables with you while you go on the trail, and then when you get to a different city closer to Jerusalem, you could redeem the banknote um for val you know goods of equal value.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like the first check system, which is pretty crazy.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you had mentioned that they really were exempt from the law, and this was an actual what they called a papal bull that Pope Innocent II that name, by the way.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Innocent such a cool name.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um he actually was such a big fan of the knights that he legally exempted them from any law.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: So this meant that they could cross borders willingly without having to have the paperwork or whatever customs to whatever extent they had back in the um 1100s.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but they also didn't have to pay taxes and they considered the Pope as their only authority.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And as Elizabeth mentioned, they didn't even take advantage of that.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine such a world?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, these stories, and we've seen them all throughout time, it's like once an organization becomes too powerful, like, you know, that's when people really start taking advantage of all the the privilege they enjoy.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they just there's really no account of that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure maybe individual instances, you know, they're humans, but in general, they were very devout, very humble people who were just again so committed to the cause and so committed to their faith.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: They were so humble too that one of their oaths was that they would live in poverty.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the order itself became very, very wealthy, but individually, the knights were not wealthy, they put all of their money into the order.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you might be wondering, like, okay, how are they getting all of this money?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, a lot of it was exactly like Elizabeth said, it was through their banking system, it was by holding onto others' funds, and then they were very good at financing, so they knew who owed the money, who was like behind on their payments, who needed to come and pick it up or whatever.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as the wars continued throughout Europe, they would gain money from the wars too.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, I mean, money equals power to an extent.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think they prove that's right.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and and one person who was really in their debt was King Philip the Fourth of France.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so we um were researching Kilp King Philip the Fourth a little bit before this, um, to see like why did he have all this deficit?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like where did all this like he he needed money from all these different sources and where did that come from?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so from what we can tell, from what we read, it looks like his father, King Philip III, he was the one that entered all these different wars and just left Philip IV with just such financial debt.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: So Philip IV was pretty desperate for money and trying to find ways to get it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so he has some pretty uh notorious things that he did during his rule, specifically just to gain kind of money, lands, power.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that he did was he attacked um a powerful banking group known as the Lombards, um, kind of confiscated a lot of their wealth.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: He also confiscated properties from a lot of the French Jews and kicked them out of their own lands.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so he had done these things kind of periodically.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he always had justifications for it, of course, saying, you know, oh, this is the reason why I need to go after this group, but it was really just because he needed money and his wells were dry and needed to fill his coffers back up.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of crazy to me the way that he just expected everyone to pay this money.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I read about this section in um Dan Jones's book, where in 1306 was where he arrested 10,000 French Jews, took all their property from them, and then Dan Jones said they were, quote, they were told to leave the kingdom on pain of death.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like, hey, I took all your property, um, and you need to leave.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And guess what?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna just keep everything that you yeah.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a pretty selfish guy.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't you say too there was an instance where he attacked a lot of like Italian merchants and did the same thing to them and just said, Okay, like all this is mine now, without any real reason.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: That was in 1292.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: He arrested all of these Italian merchants and he forced them to buy French nationality.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: So because they were Italian and they were living in France, he made them pay for it.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Checks out literally.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: So the guy was just greedy for money, and he definitely used the Knights Templar for that.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, mid-12th century, there were two other Christian orders that were kind of competing against the Knights Templar.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: There was the Knights Hospitaller and the Teutonic Knights.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've definitely heard about Teutonic Knights.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've heard that phrase.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't heard Knights Hospitaller before.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of interesting.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then there's a lot of back and forth with Jerusalem and who owns it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: So in 1187, Jerusalem is recaptured by the Muslims.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the Knights Templar actually had their headquarters there.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And this was all the way back um when they first formed.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they their order was supported by Baldwin II, who was the ruler of Jerusalem, and he gave them headquarters on that land.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the Muslims took it back, they kind of lost their their meeting spots, their home base.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Their home base.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it kind of goes back and forth.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: In 1244, it went back to the Christians.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: They they had Jerusalem for about a decade, but then they lost it again.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, fun fact, they they didn't Christians didn't control Jerusalem again until 1917 in World War I, when the British took the Ottoman Empire.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: When you said that earlier, I was like, Ages old as time.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's a long drought, yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but because of this, the the Templars had to keep moving their headquarters.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: They went from Acre to Limbassol, which is an island of Cyprus.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Limbassol.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I'm saying that right.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um they had another island, but in 13, between 1302 and 1303, the Egyptians took it over, and that was kind of their last foothold in the Holy Land, was about 1303.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is kind of when they start losing their ground, and that was their whole purpose was protecting the Holy Land, crusading for the Holy Land, and then helping the p pilgrims cross through the Holy Land.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: And they're kind of losing that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So at this point, early 1300s, you know, when Philip IV is in deep, deep debt to the Templars, and they don't really have a purpose anymore.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're not really guiding people through the Holy Lands because they don't have uh necessarily a home or a you know a home base.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, What what do you even do anymore?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there there's currently no war.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: You guys aren't really like guarding anyone, you don't even have a place to call your home.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: So what are you even here for?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And around the same time, around 1307, all of a sudden all these secret documents are starting to leak throughout Europe and mostly France.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and these documents contained all these details of these very scandalous acts that the Knights Templar were supposedly doing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And everything you can imagine from black magic to sex um rituals to like different things they had to do to get initiated into the order.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden it's just become this super like x-rated thing of like, oh my gosh, have you heard what the Knights Templar are up to?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: These men who literally wear white and are devoted to God, not so innocent.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they're just like, oh, you know, we knew it, we knew this day would come.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: These uh these men just so scandalous running around Europe.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: I will say too that they were kind of protected under the last Pope, Pope Boniface VIII, who's after Innocent the Second.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Innocent the Second, Boniface VIII, he loved the Templars.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like they could do no wrong, and he completely supported them, completely just vouched for them.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he even called them the fearless warriors of Christ.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: So when they were really in their prime and golden age, and I could just imagine, I don't know why I'm thinking of Hercules, where it's like all the kids are running around like wanting their autographs, kind of like the gladiators.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about that as well.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they were like celebrities and people really doted on them.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um but unfortunately that era ended because Pope Boniface died in 1303.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: And Pope Clement the Fifth Fifth, thank you, almost said the second.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: All these all these numbers.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the Roman numerals.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Pope Clement the Fifth um then took on the Popiness.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: What would you call that?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like Popacy.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or the Popiness.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: I like Popiness.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds very cute.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, so so at this point, King Philip IV is kind of in cahoots with uh Pope Clement V.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Initially, Pope Clement V is also on the sides of the Knights Templar.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: He has no problem with them, but he starts to get a lot of pressure from Philip IV, who's putting all these ideas into his head.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, hey, you know these rituals are antichrist, right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know they're heretics, you know they even practice sodomy.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like they could be devil worshippers.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, Pope Pope Clement is like, okay, like I'm a new Pope, this new king, not new, but King is now in my face trying to tell me like what's going on with the Knights Templar.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure what they do anymore.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe he's right.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we do need to come to a point where we are questioning the Knights Templar.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So legendary day rolls around.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: And this was all kind of leading up because Pope Clement, I this is a little bit sneaky.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: So the Templar Grandmaster is Jacques des Mollets.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Jacques.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Jacques Des Molets.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Des Mollets.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: He's French, obviously.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Pope Clement V also lives in France.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very French story.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: We should have done French food today.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we did Middle Eastern food instead.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: That was we didn't even talk, we just went from presents straight to we didn't even we didn't even talk about who we are.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I tried to do like a Middle Eastern theme.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was great.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: We had like tabula and burnt the non.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I'm sorry.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: What is it called in Middle Eastern uh food, like the bread?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not called non, but it's there's a specific word for that, like flat bread.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Jake's working out upstairs and he comes down like, what's burned?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like nothing's burning.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: We must be oblivious to it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: I had the oven on at 400 degrees with like four pieces of non-bread in there, just sitting there for like an hour, and they were burnt to a cosmic crisp.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Cosmic crisps.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: They were completely black, but I I was still down to try it.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I could, you know, break it apart.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: They were black, they were completely burnt.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, anyways, sorry, going back to Jacques de Mollet, who's the grandmaster.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: He is the grandmaster of the Templars.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so Pope Clement invites him as well as the grandmaster of his kind of like competitor, the Knight Hospitaller.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: He wants both the grandmasters to come and he wants to introduce the conversation of possibly merging the two orders.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Which in itself is like, okay, why?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I I just from the very beginning get the sense that Pope Clement is very anti-Templar and he is pro-hospitaller.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, he's up to something at this point.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um Jacques got there on time.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: The grandmaster for the hospitaller was quite delayed.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: And because this is the Middle Ages, it's not like my flight was missed and I'm gonna get there tomorrow.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was like months and months.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, Jacques is just awkwardly hanging out with the Pope, waiting for this other guy to show up.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is like so Oh, it's like a dinner party gone bad.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like when yeah, when you show up to a party early and it's just you and the host, and you're like uh, your non looks great.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: What was it burnt?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a little burnt?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like Emperor's new group, they're like awkward, like So he seems nice.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: He's what in his late 20s?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, imagine that times 10 because he was delayed for months and they had this awkward encounter.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, Pope is getting a little bit awkward because he just keeps bringing up things from the past and he keeps pulling this information out of Jacques of these old um accusations of the Templar, which is all these things that we had just mentioned of the homosexuality and the devil worshipping and the sodomy and all of the disgraceful things that they could have been doing.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um, he's kind of bringing up things from the past.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, oh no, no, no, but don't worry, you got you that that was all like a sponge.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you guys are all good of that, you're clean.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, like, can you remind me again of like let's talk about your initiation rituals?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I d I you know, I couldn't get a good sense of like how that conversation was rolling out on the other side of it, but regardless, he he got enough to be curious and to reopen and resurface all of these old issues that we thought we put to rest.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like we thought we buried the hatchet on them, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: But he feels the need to just resurface everything.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and these charges are from two years ago, so not a cool move.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not cool, Pope.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: This really excites Philip the Fourth because as Elizabeth said, he is in a lot of debt and he's looking for a way to like get rid of the Templar so he can just kind of brush that money under the rug and act like it never happened.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: So he opens up a full investigation against the entire order of the Knights Templar for the crimes.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the I have the five specific charges that they were focused on.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: It was a lot of these were things that they would do during their initiation was spitting on the cross, stripping a man, and then kissing his navel, his butt, and his mouth.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: So kissing him three times.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: In that order.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: In that order.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, telling their novices and their new recruits that a natural lust was very lawful, and they quite openly accepted it and they performed it and they did it and they liked each other very much.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um this was interesting that they presumably idolized a mummified head, which some even believed was the actual head of John the Baptist.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's what.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, we're not supposed to have any other idols besides God.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it was something about how they had these cords and they would wrap them around the idol head.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of went on a weird tangent.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that had to be a good idea.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then their last charge was that many of their priests were not even celebrating mass.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: So how can they be Catholic?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, terrible.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: So they, you know, came came forth with all of these charges and decided on one day to really round up as many Knights Templars as they could.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So this day, you might know it, Friday the 13th.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is Friday, October 13th of 1307.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's when all of these arrests started to be um started to happen.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so over 600 Knights Templar members were arrested.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: All in a day.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, including Grandmaster Jacques de Moulet.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, you know, they're confused.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, what's if what exactly is happening?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I thought we kind of squashed all of this like belief about our black magic and our sex rituals and our devil worship.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is this?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Well, we're doing like further investigation, but for now, just know that you guys are heretics.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, really quick, I'm just gonna interrupt.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: I love this too, how planned out this was because a month earlier, on September 14th, Phillips sent out a bunch of sealed letters to all of his officers across France saying, do not open this letter until October 12th.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Until Christmas.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess all of them like paid attention and actually was pretty honest about that because they then opened the letters October 12th, and then October 13th is when shit went down.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: So very orchestrated kind of attack on um, again, as many of uh members of the order as they could.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they finally get all these people, you know, all congregated and they put them all in prison.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them were isolated from each other, um, and they were just tortured.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: They were given hardly any water, like maybe a little uh water and bread any day.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they were racked, their feet were put in oil, they were held over fires to burn.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: There was something they introduced called, and you have, I think, the name of it the stripato.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Stripato.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Stripato.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's where you basically have your hands bound behind your back and then they suspend you in the air from your hands.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you literally get like these dislocated shoulders, they pop out of place while you're being suspended in the air.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: I can picture that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like whenever you see torture scenes, you always see someone in the background hung by their arms like that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's gotta be a painful way to be strung up.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so all of a sudden again, these these uh knights they go from this very high status in Europe, you know, a very coveted uh position in society, to all of a sudden just being told you're a heretic, thrown in prison, and being tortured every day for more information.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, because of the torture, a lot of people start confessing at this time.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of, you know, the knights start to come forward and they say, Okay, sure, we do have satanic rituals.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, like I am a heretic.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever gets me out of this chamber, I don't even care if it's through fire at this point, like I can't handle the torture anymore.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Including Grandmaster Jacques Des Molets.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how bad the torture was, is that so many people came forward and just said, sure, like, here's this false confession.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: There was this one guy named Ponzard of Gizzy.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Sure I'm not saying that right.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he said he would rather experience death by decapitation, burning, or scolding with boiling water than the torture he was going through.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then one confession example said, quote, I, Raymond de la Fayère, 21 years old, admit that I have spat three times on the cross, but only from my mouth and not from my heart.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Very sweet sentiment.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but um Jacques was one of those who did confess.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um what was kind of funny is in their confessions, obviously they all say I was not tortured to get this confession, which is the last thing that happened.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, they were all tortured.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, if a if a confession ever starts with that, you know the exact opposite is true.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the one guy I just quoted, Ponzard of Giza, whatever, he had stratoed.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, is that the active verb of it?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: He was strapatoed.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um he was hung, his his he was hung for so long that his fingernails started to bleed.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oof.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Which I didn't even know that was possible.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: I guess so.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, look at my nail color right now.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually the color of wine.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Strapatoed?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a couple times today.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um so Malay confessed.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: He later retracted his confession.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And this is uh what's her face?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: Joan of Arc did the same thing.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: They called him relapsed guilty a relapsed heretic, which makes me feel like you went to rehab and then you relapsed out of the relapsed heretic.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: A relapsed heretic.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is going on for years, and they're getting frustrated that the Templars are being arrested, they're being tortured, they're being tried, they're confessing, and then they're retracting their confession.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And they were um the punishment was even that much worse if you confessed and then retracted it because you've just lost all credibility and then they don't believe you anymore.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um they actually started with burning 54 um on May, between May 10th and May 12th of 1310.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: They burned 54 of the Templars, and that was just kind of like, look, this is what's coming for you.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're we're not messing around anymore in the torture chambers, we're not burning you at the stake.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that was, I mean, that was also like three years after all the arrests.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: So this isn't, I mean, think about, gosh, think about Sophie Scholl, how we were saying how she was tried executed within hours.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, five hours.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, five hours.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: This was going on for years.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so going back to Malay, I don't know if I'm saying that right.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, yeah.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Jacques.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Jacques.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: I like Jacques.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody Jacques.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: He, along with three other of his fellow Templars, are finally executed.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is taking place in Paris March 18th, 1314.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: So he has been in prison for seven years.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um he was burned in Paris and he wanted to be burned facing Notre Dame.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's actually still a plaque that you can go to today where it's the spot where him and his fellow Templars were being burned alive.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he had his hands held in prayer and he's facing Notre Dame.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I love this.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is cool.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is my favorite part of the story.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is the best part of the story.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: He starts just cursing Clement and Philip.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: We saw a few different quotes of exactly what he was yelling out.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one was God knows who is wrong and sinned.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: Soon a calamity will occur to those who have condemned us to death.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, did you have a different one than that?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: You had the one I think from the documentary, which is very similar.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: They all basically allude to the fact that Philip and Clement are gonna meet their demise very soon.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: The other one was let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us, God will avenge us.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: And guess what happened?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this is like similar to when we were talking about the H.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: H.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Holmes execution and all the eerie things that kind of surrounded his death.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but one month after uh Jacques died, was executed, um, Clement died of a disease one month later.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And in the same year, King Philip died while hunting.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think they said he had a stroke while he was hunting.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: And not only did Philip die, but within 14 years of his death, all of his bloodline was wiped out.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: All of his sons died.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to understand that this was a 300-year reign of Philip's family and just came to a screeching halt.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people think it's because of the curse of Jacques Des Moliers.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's so creepy.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he was a pretty young and thriving king to just drop dead.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And to have all your sons die too.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I I mean, he basically said too, like, you were you're going to die before the year is up, and he died November 29th, 1314.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just months later.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so maybe Jacques was a witch, the end.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they were all guilty.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then also interesting is they set up the pyre in some specific way so that he would burn slower than the others.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't want it to just take minutes, they wanted it to take a really long time.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um because he was the grand master.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: They set it up in a certain way where the the pain was supposed to be more intense and the, you know, he would die slower.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they say that's why he kind of cursed them too at the end, because he wasn't giving the him the same grace as everyone else.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, okay.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: See you in hell.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh, but some interesting things happened well after that, uh, kind of more in the modern era.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but eventually uh the Catholic Church actually came out and said that the persecution against the Knights Templar was wrong.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they said they didn't really defend Pope Clement, but they said that Pope Clement was highly pressured by Philip IV.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they they, you know, again, kind of acknowledge them as true warriors of God these days.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: They say, yes, they fought, you know, um, on behalf of Christianity in the Crusades, so they are still looked at in in favor in the Catholic Church and I think throughout Christianity.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's some really like cool, interesting like myths and legends that have come from all of this.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and in pop culture, I'm sure you guys probably have heard a lot of the stuff from, I don't know, Nick Cage's national treasure movies.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, he talks a lot about them too.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or different things.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, a lot of people think uh Freemasons or Freemasonry that started in you know America um were descendants of the original Knights Templar.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Even though current Freemasons of today kind of reject that theory, who knows if that's again part of the secrecy or if it's truly not related.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and another thing people often think of, like similar to the movie Da Vinci Code, uh, is that uh the they protected a lot of ancient relics.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, not were they just protecting the pilgrims along the path to Jerusalem, but perhaps they knew the location of the Holy Grail or, you know, the Ark of the Covenant.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe they had a certain responsibility to protect these holy sacred relics.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so a lot of kind of cool theories that are surrounding them.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did they ever find the Holy Grail?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Did they know where it is?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Why were they so rich?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Why are they so rich?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: They were like the wealthiest order of all of Europe.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, individually very like poor, but as a group, very, very wealthy.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot lots of questions still.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I I haven't read Dan Jones's book yet, but it's staring at me right here.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's something I have to read soon.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: So to kind of wrap this up, there is another finding that happened, not I mean, actually, I say not too long ago.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it was 20 years ago, which is frightening.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: But um in September 2001, a historian named Barbara Frail found a small piece of paper that had a big meaning to it.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she found what they call the Shannon parchment.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: And this was originally written in August of 1308, so just a year after all the arrests.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: She found that it was misfiled in the Vatican about 1628.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: Someone put it in a file and then just it was in the wrong spot.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: And she came across it quite naturally, and it was a it was a paper that basically absolved all of the heresies of the Templars.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: So this piece of paper could have saved all of them.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: Potentially, they were all already like esponged of all their crimes.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, someone just very conveniently misplaced it and then it got misfiled.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that interesting?
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: 300 years later.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I always wonder with stuff like that, like if that was like truly a mistake on you know somebody's part, if it was all conspiracy.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder how many things like that still exist.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like how many, you know, misplaced.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously there's things that are lost, but literally in a file system, that just that just kind of cracks me up.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine coming across that too.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you're just, oh, what's this?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're like, oh, yeah.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like understanding the significance of something like that.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love to be a historian that just randomly stumbles upon some like very important piece of paper.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: I always I love the stories too.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think someone in the last year just found a big, like literal, like coin deposit of Knights Templar gold.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like the coins, yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that cool?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've always like, oh, and it's literally always the same story.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's like 60-year-old couple right outside of like London or like were gardening during quarantine and found all these old artifacts.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wasn't that a thing that people were gardening a lot because of quarantine?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: Even they were finding all of these old coins and artifacts around in England.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: That drives me wild.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it's like obviously Western Europe probably has kind of some of the richest history in terms of like heirlooms and lost artifacts and stuff like that.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, man, if I were to dig in Arizona in the desert, like there's been nothing here since the dawn of times.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, we have Native American, like yeah, we do we do in some markets.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, in general, we're just in the barren wasteland.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: We have cowboys and Native Americans, Americans, but even like, you know, uh like natives and stuff, it's like they all migrated here too.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like you know what I mean.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like couldn't they drop something good?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like a pilgrim dropped some hand coin that was from Elizabeth and it ended up in California.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: Could happen.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get into gardening and our tiny little patches of succulent and gravel.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the Knights Templar were an amazing group of men.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: They were um, I mean, they only reigned for, well, I say rain, but they were in power for a few hundred years and then had a very quick collapse, but they still intrigue us all.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Still very iconic.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we still know about them, so their legacies far outlived any of their lives in rain.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's very cool.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Before Elizabeth goes and reads The Hobbit.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Any final words?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Not today.