Latest / WoT Spoilers / The Right Thing & An Invitation - Towers of Midnight chapters 35&36 - EP567

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The Right Thing & An Invitation - Towers of Midnight chapters 35&36 - EP567 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Speaking of
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: starting a podcast, do you want to actually start this podcast?
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: We got two chapters to get through today.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, these are some load density chapters for my notes.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: It's so much build up to such an amazing battle,
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: and it's just like creeping. It's so slow. It's like
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: you said, it's density low, but it's the tension is high.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: The building of anticipation is really a.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Lot, and I think that's what it's going for, right,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: is this is this idea of you know, you're all
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: he's edging us, right, like he's teasing us. We're right
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: on the edge of this major battle, this major resolution,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and he wants us to sit around and talk for
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: a minute. And so this is the tension before the
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: beat drops, before the murderer comes running into the house.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: This is the bomb ticking down underneath the seat when
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: you know about it, but the characters don't, right. This
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: is the tension building moment that we're trying to create.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, it is just kind of
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: them sitting around talking and a lot.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Of it is stuff that we've been talking about for
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: a while. This is just the conversation where that information
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: comes from, so we'll probably go through it pretty quick.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: But there's also a lot of pages stuff, yes, not
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: too quick, not too quick, so yeah, there's also a
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: lot of POV switching for the same reason. So I
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: don't even think there's much point in doing a read in.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: We're just going to be hopping pots constantly throughout this.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: But we start chapter thirty five with the wolf symbol.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: The chapter is called The Right Thing, and we're starting
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: with Agwayinne sort of setting everyone up for the battle.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: This is her doing her last marching orders. Everyone remembers
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: their stuff, okay, battle stations, people.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: And interesting On the timeline, right, parent has spent a
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: lot of time catching up. Now finally, we like some
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: time must have passed for Paren because we last saw
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: him right, witnessing pretty recently Rand on the Mountain.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Parent Agwayne timeline feels a little bit like
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: there's some days got lost between the couch cushions.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Here, right, because I really do feel like Parens skip
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: some time to catch up because we've seen all the
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Gwayn stuff since the because she was syncd up with Rand, right,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: and unless I'm off on that.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Timeline, yeah, because Rand came and visited her.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Right right, right, right, So this is after Rand comes
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: visiting her, So like there was from when Paren witnessed
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Rand to due Veins of Gold to now feels like
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: a very short time in Parent's timeline, but it's been
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: the whole beginning of this book for everybody else.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess Agwainn's been doing a lot, like maybe
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: we've seen her in multiple chapters they're like not even
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: necessarily on different days kind of thing. But yeah, it
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: does feel like it's been a lot longer with Agwayn
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: than it has been with Parent, even though we have
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Veins of Gold as a very distinct anchor mm hmmm.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Because yeah, what has Paren been doing since Veins of Gold?
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: What have we seen? Basically training, he's.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Been dicking around with the White cloaks.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Right, that's that's this whole thing.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, Bubbles of evil and more bubbles of
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: evil and random trials, and like.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I guess that's probably explains the weapons bubble of evil,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: and the delay is like trying getting the timelines to
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: sync up between him and Agwayn so that like all
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: that time can pass while he's catching up in timelines.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably exactly what it is is making sure
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: that this set of battles could line up together.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: All that delay that we've been complaining about this whole
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: book is probably so these times the aa here.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: We go, here we go. So the only thing that's
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: important in this first section, aside from telling everyone battle stations,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: is that she's asked about Gowin and said we sent
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: a messenger for him this afternoon. The messenger has not
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: returned send another message, right, So this is just sinking
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: us with that. But that's literally all that I have.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Which is point because he tried to send them a message, right,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and that messenger never.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Arrived, right, That messenger should have arrived by now that
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: person has already been killed, that the moves are already
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: happening for the confrontation this night. The blood Knife has
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: already done their first move of tonight's attack, which is yeah,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: getting rid of that messenger.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: And I also like Agwain here being like, please send
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: them more politely word a message. Even though she didn't
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: read the first message, she knew Sylvian the Senate, she
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: knew how it was worded, she knew it was brisk.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Shouldn't have let Sylviana editorialize my message the first time.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I definitely going to tell her not to the second time.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: And of course what she's trying to do tonight, this
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: battle we're talking about is trapping Messana.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, blood knives are not in the equation.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: For her, And so then we switched to paren in
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: the aftermath of his trial.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's feeling emotionally drained. And since he doesn't believe
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: in emotions being real work, he's like, oh, why should
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: I be tired? I didn't really do anything, dude, major
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: emotional work was done putting yourself through that. Okay, to
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: be tired.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: And then here I feel like Gaul's being our advocate. Yeah,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: he says, you Gall for saying what we all felt twice.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: We've run the battle and found no foe once more,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: we shall lose honor. Stop doing this to us as readers.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Stop getting us up for the battle with the white cloaks,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: and then saying Nope, not going to do it.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're blue balls and your warriors.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're reader.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: It's really what this is, and the readers and readers
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: we need this to move forward. Duh.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: He then gets in this sort of argument with Fayeel
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: about the result of that trial, and she's like, you're
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: an idiot, and I kind of agree with her, but
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: he in his yelling back, she gets him to explain
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: his reasoning in front of the soldiers, and that helps
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: his cause rather than just having the reasoning in his head.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: The argument with fail serves a purpose, which is him
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: saying why he did what he did because he's thinking
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: at a different level than his soldiers, right, He's thinking
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: in the strategic level. Now, do I agree with that strategy?
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: No?
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Fuck the white cloaks. They're useless. Wipe them out of them.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: They're more likely going to be a thorn in your
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: side during the last battle than any kind of aid.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: And we see that they're useless troops when it comes
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: to the one power. They have no one power. They
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: are they have no one power. They don't have any
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: of the advanced crossbows, they don't have any of the
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: advanced ideas that come from matt or Rand's army or
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: any of the five generals. They're foot soldiers of the
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: most useless kind.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but paren doesn't believe in the concept of people
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: thinking different than he does. Despite his beautiful, you know
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: statement to buy out before, he's like, why don't all
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the soldiers understand this intuitively? Duh? And like you said,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: it's it can't all be in his head. This is
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: the thing he does not understand as a leader, is that, yes,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: sometimes the things that are obvious to you are not
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: obvious to others, and you need to say it out loud.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: And for once, Fayel's desire to provoke a fight with
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: him is actually productive because it gets him to broadcast
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: his thinking for an audience that needed to hear it.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: And so he's seeing this tension building the trial's over.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: He knows there's going to be this attack, right, he
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: knows this is trap set up because of the dome,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and they can't He's like, I don't know what's gonna happen,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: but I know we can't escape. So we're in a trap, right.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Because the White Cloaks clearly did not set up a
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: magical dome. Clearly they are part of the trap, not
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: the ones engineering it.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: And Slayer guarding it. Like, is you know another big
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: clue that it's not the White Cloaks, right?
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I mean he could be a sneaky White
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Cloak doppelgang or something, but no, the White Cloaks don't
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: fuck with magic, so like clearly.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Well, and Parents says explicitly, I'm fairly certain he's Lord
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Luke right like, and he again, Sanderson loves to lay
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: out things that we should have been able to figure
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: out through the series many times before, but he wants
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: to say it explicitly, right.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Yep is Lord Luke, just in case anyone forgot.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: And so he's gonna like he's gonna go in there
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: and basically say, yeah, I'm gonna try and beat the dome.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he leaves everyone behind with orders to deal
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: with the real world implications. He's like, make gateways on
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: every count of one hundred as soon as they work,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: get everyone out for Yeosa's okay triage, send the refugees first.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: He says, I don't care what you do. I'm leaving
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: this in your hands because I am now a trusting
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Borderland style husband and I'm just gonna say, it's your
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: job to do everything other than the one thing that
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: I'm doing.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: And I have to go sleep through the last battle again.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna go. Well this is more like sleeping
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: through the precursor battle, but yes, yes, Parent is gonna
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: go do his classic I'm in the dream. It's real work.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Don't question me battle style.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: What a leader? He sleeps through all our battles.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: Right Like, let just defend his tent while he snores,
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: right fine?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Like I kind of imagine there's some Two Rivers guy
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: who just doesn't get it and is like, what the fuck?
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: What is with this parent? Why does everyone think he's
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: so great? He sleeps through all the battles. He says
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: he's a terrible leader, and I agree with him. He
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: never takes responsibility. He's such a young giddy can't know
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: what he's doing. You know, there's some like old man
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: in the corner being like, why are we following this guy?
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I want to read that like opinion column in the
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Two Rivers Gazette when it reads just like send Bouie's
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: like cousin or something that's like just as irascible but
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: has never been mentioned on screen, just like ripping Parent
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: a new.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: One God even in his battle to save us from
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: the trols, like he got ambushed and lost a bunch
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: of people, Like, don't I don't see like we keep
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: giving him chances? What is what this failing upwards that
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: you keep just just because he knows the dragon reborn
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: god talking about a neo baby, right.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, totally God. I want to read that column.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: It's so funny.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, Parens spells out very clearly. This is
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: a bunch of book one stuff and there's no coincidences
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: when I'm tavered, and it's all gonna come full circle.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Brandon, Yeah, exactly.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And then yeah, he goes off to sleep, and
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: we POV switch over to the White Cloak camp, where
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: we've got buy our being an insubordinate little shit and
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Bourne halled having a brain cell to rub together.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: And this is all by our being like being compelled.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: As far as I can tell, this is him having
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: irrational hatred of paren which canonically is from him and
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the compulsion. I don't know, it's hard to really tell
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: which ones which. Him stabbing him is certainly a compulsion,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: and I feel like the irrational hatred is rooted in
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: the compulsion. But he hated him before the compulsion.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, he's got brain worms, and brain worms
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: make people irrational. That's what hate does to a person.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Logic does not apply once someone has fully made hate
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: their personality.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: But then it was like solidified and pushed on with
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: by Grendel in some way that like.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, there is in theory a way to
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: deradicalize a normal person who has made hate their personality.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think you can once Grandal has pushed you
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: to be locked into that forever. I think you are
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: probably irrevocably brainwormed at that point. But Bornhlld, you know,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: holds a very legitimate grudge against paren that does have
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: logic and rationality behind it, and it actually does need
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: to have some amount of internal consistency. And that's why
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: he's troubled, because he's like, no, I had a very
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: specific reason for hating parent, and there's no evidence that
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: that reason is real, and I'm just enough of a
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: rational person to.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Be bothered by that and hasn't been compelled.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: It hasn't been compelled, because yeah, grandall missed the mark
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: when don't go for the guy that's already self realized,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: go for his friend who's the voice of reason.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, he's still saying, but he
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: killed dark friends, right, so I guess.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Kill he killed children's and therefore is a dark friend.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: And I love how Galad's like bitch please, Yes, I
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: killed a child. I was named dark friend for it.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: Well, but you're different, okay, okay, but it's it really
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: is one of those escalatory tactics that fascists tend to use.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Is like, well, you did anything wrong, therefore you are
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: the worst of the worst, and I deserve to kill you.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: And it's like, no people can kill white cloaks for
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: reasons other than being dark friends. You might have been
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: attacking their family. That's not being a dark friend. That's
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: you were assaulting their daughter and they killed you.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Like you know, that's I like the parity account of
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: the perfect poor person, which is going through and being
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: like the perfect poor person doesn't have loud colored hair
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: and just all these things that like, if you do
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: any of those things, you're not the perfect poor person
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and therefore are not deserving of benefits or help or
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt, right, and those things are
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: the most minor shit that we all do, or even
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: like kind of bad shit that we all do, right right.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, poor people shouldn't have nice coffees, they shouldn't
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: buy lottery tickets, and it's like fuck you.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: They shouldn't have phones, they shouldn't have yeah.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like five dollars spent on the lottery to give
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: them a few minutes of joy is not the reason
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: why they're poor.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: It's just not they shouldn't ever do drugs. It's like,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: you know what, you know, I don't give homeless people
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: money because they're going to take my money and do drugs,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and that's what I want to do with it.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Right, But yeah, it's it's the White Cloaks are following
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: that kind of like you know, escalatory, like, well, they
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: did something we don't like, therefore it's okay to hunt
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: them down and kill them. Also, as much as I'm
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: defending or as much as I'm praising Galad for calling
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: that out, he does say also that if paren doesn't
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: fulfill his oath, then Galad has the legal justification to
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: hunt him down and kill him, to which I say,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: in which countries are you really saying you have legal
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: justification to hunt him down across the continent, because that
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: sure sounds like what you're saying, because that's how the
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: White Cloaks have always operated. And you didn't qualify that
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: this was binding an and or in that statement, you
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: just said I have the right to do vigilante justice
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: on this man in any country at any time if
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I don't like how he fulfills his oath, to which
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: I say, hmm, seems like you're still a radical terrorist.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: You know, you're trying to redeem these guys, but you're
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: still subscribing to like some really terroristic attitudes.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. But he is changing, I think is the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: point of gold. Right, life is not so easy as
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: the toss of a coin. His mother had said.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: He is thinking about it.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: That's true, one side of the other, your simple illusions. Right,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: he did not like that feeling. Now he's uncomfortable in
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: his feelings to the point where he cannot trust the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: black and white world view that he's relied on so far.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: And he's realizing that at this moment.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: And he is pushing through that discomfort and getting comfortable
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: with being uncomfortable. And I do want to praise that,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: because not enough of us in the oppressor class are
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: capable of even thinking about doing that. So I points
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: points that he is sitting in the discomfort.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: And there's that moment where he redeems himself after he's
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: rescued by paren which again, you know, no sympathy to
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: affects you great, but at least when it did affect him,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: he was able to make that change and decide to
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: support Paren. And after that point we basically never hear
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: from them again as a white Cloak as a group.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you don't get to be the hero because
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: you came to your senses at the eleventh hour when
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: your head was on the chopping block. You don't get
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: the spotlight as a reward for that.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: And that cuts us back to Paren entering the wolf dream. Yes,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: pops into the wolf dream. He made sure not to
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: appear where the camp was. Can he appear outside the
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: bubble if he's inside the bubble when he goes to sleep.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I would assume he's limited to
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the bubbles. That is, I don't know that he tried it,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: but I would assume logically that that would be a thing.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe not that. Maybe he could have woken up in
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: the two rivers if he wanted.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: No, because he he wakes up outside the dome, because
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: he shifts just to being just outside the dome. Oh right,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: So he wakes up and then says, I'm shifting just
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: out He shifted, appearing knee deep in the brown cockle
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: burls just outside the dome and then he has to
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: pass inside of it.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so yes, there it is. That isn't even
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: a question, it's just in the book.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: But the question is should he I think he should
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: not be able to wake up outside the dome if
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: he's in the dome when he goes to sleep.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. That does feel a little bit to
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: bendy for convenience.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: I think he should have to exit the dome in order,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: you know, should have to be able to walk, you know,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: be like I tried to wake up in this place,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: but I woke up instead in my tent.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Or like woken up at the edge of the dome
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: right right, like pressed up against it or whatever, but
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: you know, still on this side.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I had that moment where I was like, you know what,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: I think your magic system needs a little refinement because
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: he's inside the influence of the spike in the real
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: world and in the world of dreams. So it doesn't
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: seem like you should be able to pass through that
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: without an effort.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got way too many sense blending together in
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: the field because the wolf dream is also breaking down
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: in the way that you know, the weather is getting
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: weird out in the thing, you know, flashes of smells
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and colors like it's even happening here until I run Riod.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Which reality is no longer local, right, Yeah.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Which you know is just the last battle is coming
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: there it.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Is, which the physics of it kind of makes sense, right,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: you have this this bending. We could talk about the
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Dark One as being a black hole who bends time,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: but he also is bending space a little bit, and
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: we're seeing that effect until I Runriod be amplified because
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: I do. I sort of think of him as this
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: black hole. And I've said this before, but I think
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: of Teller run Riod as the Dark One's prison.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it all makes sense to me.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: And that's the barrier between us and the well, either
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: the Dark One's prison or the barrier between us and
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the Dark One's prison, because the Dark One exists, it's
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: the same dark One in all realities, and tell a
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Roundriod is the same reality, is the same dream in
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: all realities, and so it makes sense that one of
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: those and then you have all the realities outside of that.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: So it makes sense that they're kind of wrapped together
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: as one thing, as the hub of the wheel of time.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: As it spins, and then maybe you have a bunch
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: of different wheels on one axle, and those are all
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the different parallel worlds. Sure, yeah, yeah, but that dark
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: one and tell Rounriod are the axle that goes through
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: the whole thing.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: So Hopper shows up, and also Oak Dancer, Boundless and Sparks.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: So we've got four wolves and paren who are going
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: to try to deal with Slayer and the dream Spike
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: and all of that. He's got his party gathered.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Right, and we see him having some better skills, right.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: He's no longer taking steps. He's just appearing and disappearing
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: where he wants to.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Appear, very Agwayne like in that way.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he can push through the dome without really thinking
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: about it, whereas before he fell down and was unable
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: to move right. So he's leveled up. He's better at
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: controlling the dream. He's got more will. He understands how
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: it works, and he understands that he can use his
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: force of personality to control the world around him in
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: the world of dreams. And this is where the stubbornness,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the two ever stubborness, really kicks in. Now there's a
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: moment here where he's like, oh, Slayer is in the
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: wolf dream, and the wolf dream is ours, and I
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: wonder how much of that is, like, oh, the wolf
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: dream is of the wolves, and how much of that
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: is just like because they think it is it is.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean wolves are the only creature that really,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: like sentiently inhabits this world on a regular basis as
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: far as we know, Like there's not like intelligent lions
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: walking around, you know, so I can see the wolves
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: having more of a claim to it than any other creature,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: but yeah, there is. I also notice Paren being like
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: essentially like hyping himself up. This is why I will win,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Like is this part of why you win? Because you
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: convinced yourself that you're gonna win, and so reality shapes
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: itself around you, like this is a manifesting place.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: In the same way that Agwayne uses the institution of
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: being the ambulance seat and the institution is something bigger
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: than her, and she uses that weight to break Messana,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Paren uses the idea that he is part of the
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: wolf institution and the wolves back him and this is
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: the world of wolves, and that's how he becomes part
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: of something bigger that can beat Slayer. Yeah, and so
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: this idea that it's not just you, it's this thing
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: that has existed before you and for all time and
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: will always continue to exist. Is giving you power seems
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: to really help in the world of dreams.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially when it's true. Right, It's not something
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: that you just made up in a moment of panic.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: It's true. It's been true for three thousand years. It's
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: been true since the Dawn of wolves and men. It
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: or like, you know, with a dream spike, he tries
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: to change it into a stick, and he can't because
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: it's here in its reality. Right, he's claiming a re thing.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: He's also reinforcing it with the power of his will,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: But he's reinforcing a thing that actually exists, not something
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: he made up. And light blinded fool is countering with
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: the waking up inside the dome thing.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Sure, you know, I think there's logic either way, and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't have a super problem with it, right,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: It's just one of those things that I'm like, it
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: feels like you're inside of it in the real world.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: You should still be inside of it in the dream.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: But I could see if you're like, oh, but crossing
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: into the dream, you kind of go through the place
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: of darkness and then you cross into the dream world
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: from the exterior, right.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Because you're non localized, right, So I don't know, it'd
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: be fun if there was a way to make that
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: restriction a thing. But if it's not explicitly on the page,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: then yeah, there's good canonical reason for the loophole to exist.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: And yeah, you think the Telerondriod effects are secondary to
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: its purpose, which I agree that it's mostly to prevent traveling,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: but the fact that it's called a dream spike implies
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: that it does have like clearly defined Telerondriod properties.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Well, and it's here in its reality, really, isn't it.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: When the night there's still a twisted lump of metal
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: that's left behind that was the dream spike, Like it doesn't.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: It doesn't change in the dreamway, it changes in like
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: a real object kind of way.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: So here's my question is the dream spike is obviously
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: meant to be used in teleronriand but how does it
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: get there normally? Because we see Slayer.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: I bet someone walked it through a gateway.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. I was gonna say, did Slayer not
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: bring it in when he popped in through his normal
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: but I guess it could go through a gateway because
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: we've seen that happen. That's the other way to get
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: there in the flesh, as we call it.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, Slayer could in theory carry it in
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: there with him in his hand.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Can he does Parent take objects with him? No? Yeah,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: because he takes Goal with him and all Goal's gear goes.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't see why Slayer couldn't have, yeah,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: taken it with him and doesn't.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Does Paren bring it back to the real world when
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: it's destroyed.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I think he just leaves it there. He's a little
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: upset about the whole Hopper thing at that point.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: So I will say the fact that there's a there's
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: a second dream spike that gets used, right, that's at
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: the tower.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they still have one that gets used.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: For uh yeah, I kind of wish there was just one. Yeah.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Having two, I'll be honest, having two felt a little
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: cheap to me. Or this that this one got repurposed,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: like he got rid of it and it got taken
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: and used in the Black Power because the second one
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: isn't used till this one's destroyed.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Right, right, there's a way to repair it even after
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: being lavaed or whatever.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Or he like turned it off and got rid of it,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and someone else found it and re used it, like
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: you know, Tying found it and was like, ooh sweet,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I'll use this for the Black Power.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's going to be multiples. At least make it
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: be three. Two.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Just feels like right, it just feels like, Okay, you
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: just you needed something to get rid of. You couldn't
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: make your story work without Gateways going away, and so
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: you needed a couple of different spots where gateways went away.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, they encounter Hopper or they encounter Slayer, they
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: start fighting with him. We get good anime action flippy flippy,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: spinny spinny.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Right, I'm behind you. Oh no, but yeah, I like
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: that he's else. He's like why is his smell? Like
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: he's here, he's about me? You know that level of Yeah,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: anime flippy flippy, attacking attacky.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we lose one wolf right away Oak Dancer and
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: then Sparks gets injured but not out of the fight.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Oak Dancers should have been mourned a little bit better.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: It was definitely like, oh and he fell, and it's like, dude,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: that's like the eternal life the leader of the pack, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: No, it's an eternal life and as the leader of
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: the pack, Yeah, it should have mattered more.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: At some point, Paring gets a pretty good cut car
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: across his chest.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Which I believe later when he wakes up, they talk
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: about how they were trying to like heal him because
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: the injuries were appearing on him and it really wouldn't work,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: like because he wasn't there, the healing wouldn't take.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Isn't it also true that at least Varren says that
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: when she got cut and tell her run Riod, it
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: never fully healed and left the scar.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she had the big scar on her arm that
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: she shows a goin.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's always true, that the wounds
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: people take and till her run Riodd leave scars.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: It's the it's the tests that are inconsistent. I think
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: till I run Riodd it's pretty consistent. But it Yeah,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: it's it's interesting and a fun mechanic that you can't
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: get healed while you're actively dreaming, like no, you got
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: to wait until after and then you get to see
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: how that works.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: But wounds can appear on you. It's like, I feel
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: like it's because you're not in your body, right, there's
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: no way to heal you because you're not there.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you can still take injuries, which seems unfair.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: So yeah, this is the He can now fall a
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Slayer everywhere except in the real world. Still, he hasn't
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: figured out how to transport between the real world and
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the dream world yet because he has to go in
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the flesh and like basically almost die before you can
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: figure out how to pull that trigger.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: But yeah, he doesn't consciously shift into young Bull, but
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: he's been practicing so much that he can just actually
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: slide into the role he needs, and Slayer starts to
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: feel afraid. Parent is feeling confident in his skills, and Slayer,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: for all his strength, is suddenly like you leveled up
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: way faster than I thought you would. Awkward.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: And I was reading through the description of the dream
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: spike and it's it kind of feels like a braided
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: strand of metal wire that's just been like and off
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: at both ends and for and then like forged together
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: to form a spike.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: I would I would buy that merch. I want one
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: in my house. Yes, my house is protected because you know,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: travelers popping up in gateways in my house is a
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: really normal problem.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you really don't want them to come in.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I knew you didn't want me there.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't like the choice of bell you chose to
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: ring the thing.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: But you can you can set up exceptions and stuff
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: like that. You can set up a password so you
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: can travel in and out right like a complicated spike. Yeah. Yeah,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: a dream spike really is like I can see where
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, everyone probably had one in their home.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Who's a magic user because you're like, yeah, I don't,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be. It's like locking your door
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: at night. Basically, if there's if there's an alternate world
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: way to get into your home, you know, you lock
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: the door and you set up a barrier in the
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: metaphysical world to prevent that from coming in, whether it's wards,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: whether it's a dream spike, something like that. Yeah.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: So yeah, Paren finds the well, Sparks finds the dream spike. Sparks,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: who has an injury, goes off and finds the dream
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: spike while parent's fighting with slayers. So then Parent's able
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: to hop over, grab the spike and start scooting the
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: dome across the surface of the earth like he's under
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: a bowl, like pushing on it like a turtle because
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: he doesn't know how to deactivate the shield. If he
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: knew how to twist the top, then he could deactivate
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: the shield and hop wherever he wanted, but instead he
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: feels like he's stuck with the dome at maximum spread.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: He really needs the user manual on this thing. He
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: does not read up on how the buttons work or what.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: The literally, if he just twisted the top, the next
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: three chapters would be so different.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: So yeah, he's just basically hopping. At the end of
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the chapter, he's hopping away from Slayer, trying to find
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: someplace safe, someplace to hide it, someplace to basically keep
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: it away because he knows the second he starts shifting away,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: his troops start gatewaying out. At least the civilians start
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: gatewighing out right, So he's trying to delay Slayers if
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: he can't destroy it the way Slayer as long as
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: possible to escape the trap.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he comes back and then like, haven't
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: moved because some other reason. It's a whole thing, but yeah,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: he he's gotten rid of problem one. Which is the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Dome being in that location. Now he has problem to
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: the Dome still exists, and Slayer is still hot on
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: his tail, and if.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: He doesn't destroy it and or stop Slayer, Slayer will
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: just take the Dome back and the whole problem will
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: be happening again.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he has not kept it from returning. So that's
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: where we end that chapter. And then we pivot on
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: over to chapter thirty six and Invitation with the sea
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: focal goals as our symbol.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: And this is the unification of the channelers, right, like
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: we've united the kin with the iid Eye, but we
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: still have these two big groups which are the c
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: folk and the Ieal, the wise women who are not connected.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: The wind Finders and the wise ones.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Other than you know, the only other large group of
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: channelers we've come across are the shan Cham.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: We know the Sharans exist, but they aren't plot relevant yet.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: But we're essentially I consider it, I almost call it
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: the gray Tower, right we're creating this unified tower of
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Isidai people who are channelers because you're either Isidai or
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: you're in one of the two groups who are training,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and all these three groups because they're sending each other
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: apprentices will eventually homogenize their knowledge into one giant pool
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: of knowledge and skills.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't call it the Gray Tower because the men
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: are still not.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Involved yet, but I would disagree because the men are
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: bonded in a way. Right, We've got those forty seven
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: women who are bonding the men.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the men will be coming into the picture.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: The men will be coming into it, right, We've got
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: these mutual bonds. We've got Will have Androwl have Bavara.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: We'll have that sort of bond between the White Tower
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and the Black Tower. We have the White Tower spreading
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: out to include the three sort of nations, the West,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: the Middle, and East. And yeah, I mean, I don't
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: think calling it the Black Tower. It's not one tower.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: But we're creating a unified organization of channelers across both
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: men and women, from every nature, nation, in every culture
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: coming together to work together to recreate, you know, an
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: age of Legends type society where channelers are elevated and
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: from every population and well trained and not lost and
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: all that stuff. Right, We're bringing back the dominance of channelers,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: but like in.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Such a better way, because this time it's gonna be
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: three if you're depending on how the men end up
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: sorting out. But like there's gonna be multiple different cultures
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: that are never gonna homogenize, right, Like the White Tower.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: I mean a going even thinks here, you know, like
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: the p of patriarchal white supremacy only one right way
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: attitude of the White Tower feels hollow to her. Like,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: you know, the wind Finders and the wise Ones have
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: been managing themselves fine without the White Tower, and the
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: White Tower isn't inherently better. And I think that that's
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: going to stay true even in the centuries after. You know,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: in the Fourth Age, these cultures are not going to
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: homogenize it. So you're going to have the Channelers who
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: have a unified some unified culture, but they're still going
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: to be so different. And I feel like the Age
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: of Legends was way more like one world government and
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: that's why they needed zolof trees in every city. So
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: I think this is going to be better. I think, yes,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: they are reaching back to the old vision of utopia,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: but I think this is actually going to be healthier
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: than that old version.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agree, But you know, one thing we've
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: learned from the visions is it's not like we have
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: a utopia. It's not like all the problems go away,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: and it's not like everybody suddenly gets along. Right, There's
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: going to be problems. There's meaning going to be issues.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: There's gonna be political problems between these groups. But yeah,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: I that we're going to end up with a better
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: solution with lots of voices, lots of diversity, multiple institutions.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: But I feel like, you know, if you're an Ieel
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: who's got a lot of power, well you might go
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: train with the ice ad I for a while to
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: really get a handle on that, you know, channeling power.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: If you're a talented dreamer in the sea folk, you
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: might go to the Ieel. Right, if you have if
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: you're if you're really good at weather and maybe you've
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: got you're good at handling bigger flows, and that's a
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: little harder for they yield to deal with, so they
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: send you to the sea folk because they're better at
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: dealing with sort of that raw power, big flow weather
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: type stuff. Right, I'm going to.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Probably end up with more you know, food and clothes
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: and music and maybe even genetics passing between these groups
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: over time, because that's how people are when they interact,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: and it's going to be good.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: And talents that may have gone unrecognized or untrained can
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: be trained by different groups.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, who knows what kind of interesting wood bending
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: techniques the ideal still have that the sea folk would
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: like for their ships or whatever.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Anna.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think this is a really nice setup
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: for things that we know are gonna happen in the
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Fourth Age. Okay, these powerful agencies are going to be
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: working together for common goals. We like, whatever's gonna happen
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: in the Fourth Age, it's gonna be messy, but these
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: groups of people who have the best interests of their
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: people at heart are gonna be working together instead of
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: against each other, and that will help the Fourth Age
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: be a place we can put some optimism.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: And the vast majority of this chapter is a Gwain
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: basically going to each group and saying, hey, here's the
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: situation we have now, wouldn't it be better if we
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: had this other situation? If we gave and they end
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: up in this this And I don't even think I
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: don't I don't necessarily need to go through each negotiation.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's there's just a lot here that
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: doesn't need specifics. There's a couple of points I want
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: to bring up, but like, I don't think I need
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: to go through the whole thing. But they basically come
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: to the conclusion that you've got these three groups that
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: are each going to send each other to a parent.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: So two apprentices from the White Tower are going to
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: go with the sea folk and to the wise Ones,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: and two I Eel apprentices are going to go to
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: the sea folk and the White Tower, and two seafolk
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: princes are going to So you have not very many,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: but for now, it's a start.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: It's a pilot project.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're just going to build up this population
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: because these women are going to live for so long,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: this population of bigger and bigger groups of people who
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: have all trained with each other, right.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Right, They'll know each other the no to Idio Saint Christitis,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: they'll have work together, they'll have a particular person that
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: they were friends with.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: And then you'll have like sea folk coming to the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: White Tower, and they'll be a bunch of I E
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Saidai who have trained with the sea folk and can
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: sort of help them. Like it's it's a cross cultural
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: exchange that's going to make everything work really well and
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: something we've seen coming, and like the binding of these
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: groups together is something that has been foreshadowed and talked about,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: and a GWayne has said, I will bind all women
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: who can channel to the White Tower, and this is
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: how she's going to do it.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the been of my most pessimistic
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: interpretations of how kad Swain is going to handle her
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: brief tenure as Omrelin. I don't think she's going to
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: try to reverse this. I think even the most conservative
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: is to die are going to realize that this is
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: not a good battle to fight. It's going to be
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: much better for the Tower to yes and what Agwayin
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: has started here, even though again won't be there to
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: see it through, I believe that this will be the
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Tower's policy moving forward.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: And so there's a couple of agreements. Everyone kind of
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: gets to keep their taran real right, the idea that
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Taron real that there's there's only a certain number of
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: them when they all belong to the White Towers outdated.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, you'll get to keep their pillars.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll get to keep their pillars. The I said,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: I don't need that. They've already given the bowl the
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: winds to the c folk, right, they're never going to
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: get that back, right.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: And then she gives them the loaned tour on grill
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: in exchange for nullifying that part of the bargain she hated.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And then there's that dumb like, oh, I said
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I to train them. She's like, wouldn't you rather have
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: apprentices that are mouldible and then you can send your
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: own apprentices to learn whatever they want and we can
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: train them and they can bring that back. And you like,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: isn't that a better solution than trying to teach an
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: old dog new tricks? And they're all like, yeah, we'd
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: rather have the young dog be learning the tricks.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Resolve so much cultural misunderstanding and stuff that's been
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: plaguing these books. A Gwaenn's just like, what if we
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: started over reset?
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: And this is also that that whole conversation, I mean,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: all the negotiation that happened with the Cea folk, all
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the mistakes, all of the prophecy about you know, this
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: person becoming mistress of the ships and how should be
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: punished for the agreement and come back like, this is
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: all resolving all of that essentially.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: I also like to that they agree that the apprentices
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: have to return to their own people mm hmm for
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: a period part of a year, Like there can't be
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: any like getting seduced by the shiny new foreign experience.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: You do have to go home after your exchange program
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: and like think about it, talk about it with your people,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: and then choose where you're going to be and what
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: you're going to do for your post doc.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: With gateways not such a big deal.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Also that, but you know, being at home under your
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: mother's roof is different than just visiting on the weekends.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Although I do this as someone being like, well, I
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: don't want you to seduced by all those liberal big
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: city ideas without coming home and us being able to
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: do the brainwashing.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I do feel like Igwayne is putting in a relief
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: fell for all the conservative people in the various cultures
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: in question, because again, they live for a long time,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: they can be very old fashioned.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: And I like this sort of philosophy here where she
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: talks about her father putting up fences to prevent people
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: from walking. And I've seen this desire path right, Like
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: this is a whole thing that was big on the
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: internet for a while. Is the idea that like stop
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: putting up fences where you want people to walk, figure
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: out where they desire to walk, and create a path
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: in that location, and all of a sudden, everybody's life
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: gets easier.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this was a thing I learned in my geography program.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I did some like park design trail finding, like how
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: do we apply these principles to actual site design? And yeah,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: the idea is not to tell people where to walk.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: The idea is to figure out where are people going
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: to try to walk. Put all of the road trail
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: infrastructure where people are going to try to walk, because
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: they're going to walk there anyway. You have to go
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: walk the site and think about where are people going
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: to be drawn to, and how do we yes and
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: that instead of no.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: But that one of the things that like in terms
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: of urban street design is a lot of times what
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: you want to do to slow people down, you actually
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: want to restrict the width of a road without necessarily
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: restricting the places where cars drive. And one of the
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: ways you can do that is you can look at
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: a road when it's been snowing and you can see
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: all the places that cars never touch. And so a
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: lot of times that's like the bump if you look
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: at an intersection, you can actually protrude out the edges
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: of that a little bit where people cross because cars
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: don't actually turn over that corner. There's a corner they
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: don't touch, and so you can actually bump the sidewalk
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: out a little bit. It doesn't affect where the cars drive,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: but the perception of the road narrowing at the intersection
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: slows cars way down, and it means people crossing the
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: road less space they have to cross, and so it's
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: safer for pedestrians all that kind of stuff, right, But
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: one of the two ways that they can do that
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: is by looking at these sort of paths that people
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: naturally go down. You can see that a if it snows,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: and you can see where the cars go leave litter.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Leaf litter also does that a little bit, right. You
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: can look at where leaves fall and where they get
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: crushed and pushed off the street versus where they pile
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: up on the sides and so or you know, one
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: of the things urban designers can do is look at
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: you know, leaf path and snow paths and see like, oh,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: where can I actually build out easements that are going
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: to slow people down based on where they're actually driving, right.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean to quote, you know, the Gospel
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: of Men in Black. You know, an individual can be smart,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: but people are dumb. People collectively very stupid. If you're
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: going to build a path, if you're going to build infrastructure,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: if you're going to build an institution and you want
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: it to work for the greatest number of people, you
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: have to figure out, well, the lowest common denominator, lowest
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: energy state, easy path of least resistance is and build
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: your infrastructure to accommodate to that. And if you're going
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: to try to redirect that, it has to be a
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: yes and not a no.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Butt And you have to look at what people do. Naturally,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: you can't put up a sign that says I want
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: this behavior, expect people to read it and do that behavior.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: People don't read, you know they will do it.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Nobody reads, nobody reads, nobody reads.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: If you want people to slow down, you can't put
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: up a sign that says slow down. You actually have
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: to make the road narrower and make them feel less safe,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: even without necessarily being less safe. Right. That's the trick,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: is this perception of speed being dangerous because it is dangerous.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: That's the thing is like a lot of times we don't.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: You put a big, open, wide road with big shoulders straight,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: you know you're going to go fast on it because
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: you have a perception of safety, whether that's true or not,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: because you have a strode with a bunch of people
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: coming in and out of your space. The perception of
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: a big, open, straight road is going to make you
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: drive faster than a road that's windy or has easements
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: or has intrusions, even if you your wheels have exactly
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: the same clearance and path to go through.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was a little kid getting put into
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: martial arts for like the first time, and they were
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: teaching us like how to walk on a balance speam,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: they were like, hey, did you know fun fact, this
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: is basically how you walk anyway. It only feels difficult
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: because you realize that you're trying to walk on this
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: narrow little beam. But if you ever like watch your
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: feet in the snow or in the sand, you'll see
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: that this is actually remarkably close to the path that
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: you walk without thinking about it all day every day.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: So it's really a matter of your perception of oh
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: there's edges, it's scary. Now, I can't balance it's like
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: just walk, just walk, which is really good, you know,
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: as a little kid learning how to stay upright consistently,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: but you know it's it still works as an adult
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: when I get onto like railroad tracks, which hey, kids
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: don't do that, but if you know that there's no train,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: railroad tracks are a great natural balance speam that you
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: can just find in the wild where it's like, yeah,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: it's basically normal walking almost.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I love walking on curbs for the same reason. It
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: feels like a balance beam, but you can step off
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: on the side and you've got a big sidewalk there. Yeah,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: and yeah, you learn quickly, right that, like the hard
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: part about balancing on a curb or a beam or
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: something like that is not oh my god, it's so narrow.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: It's the idea that it's so narrow.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like it's a slack line that's like
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: moving under your feet or something like. It's exactly as
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: solid as the ground.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Right, You've just made this arbitrary width that you have
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: to move your feet within, and that fear slows you down.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: And that's the same thing happens in cars. There's this
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: moment where the ideal are like listen, we're not going
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: to serve you anymore, right, we'll train with you. But
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: there may have been a point where the ael thought
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: they were supposed to serve the Isidie. Right, those are
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the legends that time is past. And Agwayne turns to
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Amis and says, the women you thought you would find
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: are nothing more than a dream. Right, This idea that
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: you made these women up in your head and put
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: them on a pedestal, and then when you met them,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: they're just real women and this idealized version. And what
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: that reminds me of so much is crushes or meeting
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: your hero, right, this idea that like the person you
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: think they are, the person you've created in your mind
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: and who you have all this hesitancy about approaching, that's
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: not the real person. And once you get to know them,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you may like them, you may still, you know, want
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: to be with them, but chances are it's not the
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: person you made up in your head, you know, And
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: that's why crushes are so ineffective as a way of like,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I didn't know, you know, growing up in high school,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: I had crushes all the time, and I didn't understand
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: that once I acted on those crushes, why I just
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: didn't like the person anymore. And it's like, oh, because
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I got to know the person instead of the idealized
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: version of the person that was in my head. And
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: so I really had to change how I approached relationships
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: because I was sabotaging myself right so often in my
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: early love life, because I'd be like, oh, I want
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: to be with this.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Person, having no idea who that person is, having no.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Idea who that person is, right, idealize them and have
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: it and idealize them over real people, and being like, well,
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: the people I meet in life aren't as good as
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: the people I've idealized in my head. So I'm not
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: going to date the people I actually know in real
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: life when those are the people I should have been
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: dating the whole time, right, Like, And so there's this like,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: you know, God, I remember this is a personal story.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: But a friend of mine, you know, we've been friends
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: for a long time, and at one point she's like, hey,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm I think I kind of like you.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: And I turned to her and said, well, you'll get
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: over it. And because I had such an idea that
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I wasn't this perfect person and that she couldn't possibly
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: like me, right, like, because real people wouldn't actually.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Like me, only those people in your head that you've
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: invented exactly.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is this sort of difference between what
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: a real person is like and what an ideal love
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: should be like. And seeing and romance somewhat did that
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: to me, right, It did this idea that there's this
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: special bond that happens in romance that's different than a
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: good friendship, and.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: There is but so less of an extremely differentiated degree
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: than the movies what happens?
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Think, Yeah, it's it's I mistook infatuation with love for
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: most of my childhoodness.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an easy mistake to make. We were
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: really set up to fail on that one. But yeah, no,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: I like that. Agraine is essentially saying that, like, No,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: the eyes that I haven't fallen, They haven't failed to
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: meet some realistic standard. They aren't a disappointment. You were
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: wrong about who they were in the first place, like you,
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: that was never who the eyes that I were ever there.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: You can't make America great again. It was never great,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: right right, right? Yeah, I planted full Maybe let's not
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: try that. Yes, thee eye can fix him.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: No you can't, right, No, you can't because he's not broken.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: That's just who he is.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if his leg is broken and you're a nurse,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: then yes, maybe you can in fact fix him.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: But and so then there's this sort of discussion afterwards
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: where all three groups go back to their own group
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: and say, hey, they're trying to play on and it goes, yeah,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: but we can play them better, and you know, all
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: three groups having the same conversation, right of like, here's
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: the game, here's we've laid out the playing field. Now
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: we just have to be better at playing the game.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that'll you know, be a fun game that
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: never ends.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's why there aren't any happy endings, because
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: there will always be a little bit of a power
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: struggle between these three groups as they try to exert
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: their own influence over the other two.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: But it's set up to be a very healthy, equitable
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: playing field that should benefit all parties more than it
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: hurts them. They're going to all be a nice check
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: and balance on each other. Resources will be more shared
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: than hoarded, like, it'll be a dynamic source of friction,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: but it won't be bad.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: This is a NATO Shared Trade Agreement, right, This is
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: like NAFTA basically.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Hopefully it's better than NAFTA.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: But that's the idea behind us, right, they're trying to
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: sell this free trade agreement, this idea that the ideas
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: and training gets traded between the various nations of these channelers.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we can be great than the some
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: of our parts and more effectively deal with our actual
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: enemies like climate change or yeah.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly the Americans.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Uh huh, yes, yes. And also you know they are
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: put using the Ashaman as a potential gode. We know
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: that the Sharons are going to be a thing that
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: they'll be worried about, like there will be enemies that
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: it's worth the three parties aligning to deal with God.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Sharon's all. I mean, we don't know they're a
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: threat yet, but like with gateways, they are pretty much
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: always going to be a threat.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, unless they change their stance institutionally, which is going
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: to be a whole negotiation.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Them, Them and the sea folk need to change some institutions.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: The Chin, yes, shn them and the Jean Chen need
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: to change some institutions.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: The two empires that are actively built on slavery as
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: a virtue are definitely going to need to seriously revamp
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: in order to not be the enemies of I was
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: going to say the free world, but that phrase feels tainted.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Now, And so we sort of end this POV with
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: the reports that the battle has begun. Basically Shadow has attacked.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Gwen's like, I wonder where they are? Has Masana
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: on attacks and Swan shows up like we were trying
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: to call you the pile so incredibly joined right now.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: We've been fighting this whole time.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: Help.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a great cliffhanger. Yes, a chapter, a POV, whatever,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: it's it's excellent because I was also sitting there, like,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: but all that anticipation in the fight hasn't started. No, No,
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: the fight did start, we just didn't hear about it.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's been going on outside the room. Yes,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: And we're getting this convergence, right, we're bringing Paren to
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: the White we sort of see at the end of
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: this chapter. Oh why why are these stories being told
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: in parallel? Oh, Paren's bringing the dream Spike to the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: White Tower. That's gonna cause some issues because he's affecting
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: tell around riodd where this trap where this meeting is happening, Right.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: I wish that Paren and Agwayn had ever talked about
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: the dream spike of it all. They have their little
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: it's just a weave moment, and I think that Agwain
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: wants to follow up with him on that, but she
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: never gets to learn that he brought a nearly unique
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: magical object to bear on the tower and that's what
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: went wrong with travel. Like, I don't think they ever
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: talk about that. She never learns what a dream spike is.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: No, because he doesn't realize this battle is going on.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Well he's got the dream spike there.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he never realizes that Masana was there getting her
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: brain smushed while he was fighting Slayer. Like they needed
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: such a longer debrief, They needed like a long weekend
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: and a barrel of wine to just like talk about
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: that evening.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, there should have been a moment with the
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Emmonsfield five coming back together and having a night before
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: the last battle of sharing all their stories. You know,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe Elaine and Avienda in there as well, and
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: men right, throw in the three Lovers, Yeah.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Totally, they've been around since book one or two.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: You know, I have fail in there with Paren.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like a good like ten person barrel of wine,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: whole ass cheeseboard and just sharing all the plot recaps.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: The one time we were allowed to have communication in
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: our wheel of time, you know, would have been nice,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: but we don't get that. We get a POV switch
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: back to paren mm hmm.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: And he's hoppin with the dome, right. We saw him
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: do that, and he sort of seize Dragon Mount and
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: then sees Tarvallin as he's hopping north and decides to
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: use the city as a distraction.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: He figures he can find a nightmare in there because city.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Right, and he's been having this trouble that like, because
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: he's hopping he can only hop in these discrete steps
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: and he knows and he's going in a direction. Slayer
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: can just jump in front of where he's going and
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: wait for the dome to pop on top of him
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: and then attack Parn without having to pass through the dome.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: The dome's moving to him, so Parent's like, shit, I
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: need to basically establish a place where he can't tell
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: quite exactly where I am. Right. A city's dense, you
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: can move around, and if you're out in an open field,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: you know, the spikes about at the center of the dome.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: You know about where the spike is. You can home
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: in on him very quickly. If you're in a city,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: even a couple of block radius isn't going to necessarily
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: help you find the person, right, Really, Yeah.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: If he had just chosen to go up to Dragon
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Mountain the first place, we could have skipped a lot
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: of shenanigans if he had just turned left instead of
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: right at this point.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. If he just had the idea that, oh,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I can put this in the lava.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Because like, yeah, throwing it in the ocean what work?
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: So there can retrieve it, But can slay I retrieve
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: it from lava? I don't think so.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: No. So even if it doesn't destroy it, the lava
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: is going to kill him.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: You know, he is not going to tell a volcano
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: that he's unmultiple I'm sorry, that's just not.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Going to happen, okay, geologist.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, if they're in its reality, not the volcano. No,
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: But it's just it's it's an unbeatable monster. It's a volcano.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Doesn't he toss it into a volcano in the dream.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: It's not even the Teleroanriad version of the volcano. It's
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: the dream version of the Teleraano odd version of the volcano.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a nightmare volcano. It's not even the real
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: tele I run rialed volcano. Like if he had tossed
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: it into Dragon Mountain in the dream, he would not
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: have found a twisted bit of metal on the floor
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: after the Nightmare popped right, The twisted bit of metal
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: would have just sunk to the bottom of the volcano
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: and melted away entirely. Oh, then Andrew could have pulled
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: it out when he made the gateway. That would have
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: been funny.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: That would have been funny, Just like, what's that silver
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: spike in the lava?
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Oh well, what if he couldn't make a couldn't make
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: the gateway into the volcano because it was in there
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: and it had its bubble out, that would have been
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: a problem.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: They'll be interesting. What if the volcano didn't destroy it
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: so that Yeah, the spike is just in the volcano.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: No one can get it out, and so there's just
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: no gateways to or from dragonmount anymore.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: That'd be funny. How big is the radius on that
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: could it encompass all the way out to the foothills.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: It depends on it has a variable thing on it, right,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: so you can change the radius. So right now the
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: radius isn't that big. It's big, but it's not that big.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: And what do they say, ten leagues or something like that,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's significant because he was saying, oh, yeah,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I sent them out to the edge to hike towards
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: the edge, which I think he said was ten leagues ten.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: To maybe miles. Probably they don't use leagues in this world,
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: do they? The leagues about three miles, thank you, athlon.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: One nautical league is three point four miles. Yeah, I
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: think picking a dream spike out of the lava would
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: be very challenging needle in a haystack. But Bernie, Bernie,
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: and a nautical mile is about eight hundred and fifty
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: six feet longer than a statute mile correction seven hundred
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: and ninety six feet math. I forget why nautical miles
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: and statute miles are different. I knew it at one point.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: I can tell from the name where they are relevant,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: but I forget why we had different miles.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if they ever restored the gateways in one hours,
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: start their marching towards the perimeter where Neil discovered he
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: can make gateways a.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: Nautical mile is based on latitude. Huh, but also being
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: like on water. Right, Like, nautical miles are for being
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: used on water, whereas statute miles or regular miles miles
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: for land. Where rational people's day.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Kneeled and gall scouted in several directions at parents orders
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: to see if gateways worked if one got far enough
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: away from the camp. Sure enough, it turned out they
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: did that one had to go for hours to escape
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: the effect.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, not leagues, but hours, which implies a measurement that
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: could be measured in leagues for sure. No interesting. I
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: thought nautical miles were strictly for water, but they're not.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: They're just measurements and can be used anywhere. Okay, next, Okay,
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: chat's so helpful. I love all you nerds. They're different
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: because they serve different purposes. Statute miles measure land distance,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: while nautical miles are based on the Earth's curvature. Right.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: I knew there was something about circles involved in that
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: a nautical mile is longer than a statute mile for
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: easier precise navigation over long distances like at sea or
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: in the air, where the curvature of the Earth actually matters.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's exactly one minute of latitude. So every
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: nautical mile, you know, you're traveling a minute of latitude.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: So if you're measuring in la minutes of latitude, you
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: can be like, oh, how many uncle miles will we've
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: gone this many right? Right? Yeah?
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: And that really yeah doesn't matter at like normal person
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: walking or riding a horse or driving a car to work,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: it really doesn't matter. But yeah, if you're trying to
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: sail any distance, really it's kind of seriously matter then.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: Doing a conversion. So yeah, lifeline fools saying sixteen auticle
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: miles is a degree of latitude. So as suppose if
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: you're using regular miles, it would be like sixty point
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: you know, or like sixty eight or something like that.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know, some point whatever whatever whatever. So on
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: a map, it's much easier to be like, oh, yeah,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: let's just split this degree of latitude and call it
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: sixty miles from here to here.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: And longitude is just fucked Yes, that's why you need
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: good clocks. Yeah, yeah, longitude is messy. And if anyone
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: who's confused about latitude versus longitude, latitude like ladder longitude
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: like orange slices.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Wait, why the orange slices, How do those come into it?
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Because that's what they look like. Longitude it's like orange slices.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: But how does the word just because.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: The almost rhyming with orange, it's easier to go with
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: latitude or like light plane of fool said latitude is flatitude,
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: but I was like latitude lattice, ladder, ladder. I go
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: from the double t's to double d's pretty easily with
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: that one.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: The ladder has both vertical and horizontal, well, like.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: The wrungs on a ladder. Gotcha, But latitude is flatitude
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: is honestly better. I don't care if we have to
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: coin a whole new word. That's better as a mnemonic.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Anytime you can get it to rhyme.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. And yeah, with that completely irrelevant tangent into
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: measurements into isology, I think we're done with wheel of
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Time for today.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the end of the chapter. Yeah, Like I said,
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of pages, but fairly low density. And we
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: didn't really go into the details of the negotiation. We
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: could have gone to the personalities of the different wise
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: ones and the Isidi and the sea folk and talked
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: about you know, one thing we didn't talk about is
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: why that particular sea folk is now in charge, right, because.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all of that rank changing stuff that just
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: all feels like such old news.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: So but Ranaila lost her sonority when Nessa died because
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: they were tied together, right. And that's the thing is,
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: if your captain dies as a win finder, you drop
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: down in rank and have to start back over again.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Because win finders will outlive their captains consistently.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Right. So Shalen is now win finder to the Mistress
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: of the ships, which is why she's the one in charge.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't even occur to me to go over
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: that because it just all feels like such old news.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, thanks everyone for joining us today. We'll see
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: you next week as per usual, with more Shenanigans involving
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: this battle, I believe.
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, this is a fun battle. I really like
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: this battle.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good battle, even the Gawain parts. I
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: don't hate a whole lot.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: No, And I like the way that you've got multiple
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: different plot lines coming together to make the battle happen
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: in one place. I think this is one of Sanderson's
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: better skills, which is writing a sander lance where you
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: have all these different plots that come together in one
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: single battle, and the different aspects of the battle affect
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: each other and support each other. He's really, really, really
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: good at writing this kind of stuff.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: And we needed that for a Gwain and for parent.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: They both needed that kind of treatment putting them together.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: Just it's more than some of its parts. I'm so excited.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you very much, and we'll talk
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: to you next week. Okay. Book review time. So I've
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: talked about like Hanus trilogy by James Islington. He is
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: now working on his second trilogy, and I'm discovering a
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: lot of things that are similar, right, Like his first
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: book was not the easiest to read in each trilogy,
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: but then because he reveals so many interesting twists and turns,
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: you can go back in. The first book makes more
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: sense after reading the second book, and then they both
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: make more sense, I think after reading the third book.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: So now that I've read the second book, I'm starting
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: to really appreciate the first book more in the second trilogy,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: so it was the will of the Many and then
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: the Power of the Few. I'm only a little bit
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: into the second book, but I'm already kind of getting
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: what he's going for in this trilogy much much better
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: than I did after the first book, and again he's
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: doing something very interesting and meta physical with his magic
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: system in a way that I think is well done.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: And I'm really looking forward to see not only where
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: he goes with the rest of the second book, but
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: where the third book ends up, because I think I
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: think that he has a really interesting way of addressing
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: fantasy systems. And one thing I will say about the
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Lacanus trilogy is the ending wrapped up every plot point
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: so well, and it buttoned it up in such a
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: satisfying way that I'm giving him a lot of leeway
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: in these two books, really enjoying them, really enjoy what
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: he's setting up, and if he can pull it all
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: together and bring it together in a satisfying way, I
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: think it will be another really excellent trilogy James Islington,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: especially as he develops as a writer and gets a
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: little more like his characters are getting a little bit better,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: is like his writing is getting better right as he
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: writes more right like any any author, and so I
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: really do think that he's a quickly up and becoming
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: one of my favorite authors who appears to be writing
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: on a regular schedule, on a regular basis, has ideas
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: that he wants to share. That's cool, And I will
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: certainly say his writing style is not for everybody, right, Like,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: this is not going to be a book with a
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: lot of his romance is almost non existent. Right, there's relationships,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: but it's not a romance book. It's not necessarily the
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: strongest characters that are going to be like, oh, these
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: are my best friends who I relate to. Right, He's
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: much more in the what I would call interesting world building,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: interesting plot looking at like sort of complicated ideas, but
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: at the same time still telling a great story. But right,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: I won't say he writes the most interesting characters for sure,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: I always But at the same time, like I do
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: think he's doing the thing he's doing better than anybody
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: else at this time, if that makes sense.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: People can have different strengths in different things but still
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: be equally competent at making some people think.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Right, Right, I'm enjoining a second book. Yeah, I've been reading.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: I've definitely read a few other book series more on
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: the romance side of things, just because my wife is
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: reading a bunch of those. She likes the sort of
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: the trashy romance. So I'm consuming a bunch of those
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: as well, and I shouldn't call them trashy romance, but
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: you know the kind that I'm talking about, the.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Stuff that like, No, I don't actually, I've listened to
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: too many people rant about how trashy romance is simply
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: a misogynistic slur that doesn't have any bearing on actual writings,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: So I genuinely don't know what you're talking about.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, There is the romanticy side. Basically, since Sarah J.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: Mass published her books, there's been a lot of copycats
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: that have said, oh, we can add sexy scenes into
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: fantasy and that will sell. And so there's a whole
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: slew of romance books out there now that are essentially
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: fantasy light fantasy trope with a bunch of very gratuitous
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: sex involved and power dynamics that I'm sure somebody that
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: you've heard people rant about that are yeah, yeah, and
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, right, this new wave of clumsy meshing
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: of genres that's not necessarily making real authors in either
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: genre happy at all.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Not real authors, but previously existing authors.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, I've seen a lot of established
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: authors being like, romanticy isn't a thing. Stop pretending it's
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: a thing. You're just anyway. I've read a lot of rants.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: I am not capable of repeating or replicating them and
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: doing justice to those points. But ethelon time to make
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: a sex based magic system to really mesh the genres.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: But you know, there's always been this level. I think
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: it used to be on like fan sites, right right.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But I mean, isn't it isn't Twilight was fifty
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: shades fanfic, right right? So fanfic is escaping containment and
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: getting publishing deals, is what's happening. And then yeah, people
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: who were actually established in the romance genre are like,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: why are you talking down to us and now adding
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: a little bit of smut to your fairy books and
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: calling it equal to what we've been doing for the
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: past twenty thirty years.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: But you know, everything's a remix, right. That's how new
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: genres get made, is you mix two things together. Am
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: I a huge fan of this genre. I wish it
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: was written better. I wish it wasn't quite as lazy
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: as it is, but it is the But you know
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: that's there's always the lazy, low hanging fruit, and then
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: you end up with something great, you know, like Dungeon
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: Crawler Carl. Right. There's a lot of really lazy video
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: game writing out there, right, because it's very easy to
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: take your favorite video game. You've got your hero, you've
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: got your progression, you've got the levels, you've got the
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: bad guys, recreate that in a book format where you
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: win your fights, right, you roll the dity the way
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: you want them to roll. All of a sudden you've
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: created a story, you know, and a lot of that
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: it's crap. But I love Dungeon Crawler Carl because it
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: is a well written series using that concept. And so
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: is there the possibility that there's going to be some
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: really well written romanticy out there that's just really good
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: fantasy with some sexy scenes in it. Sure? Absolutely have
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: I read it? No, No, I have not.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of book reviews, I am love hating Dungeon
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: Curler Carl halfway through chapter forty two, and if you know,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm very angry, very angry right now, but
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: I'm having a great time with those books. That's the
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: best book review I can give is everyone should go
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: listen to our podcast at Donut podcasts where you can
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: listen to me aggressively reviewing these books in meticulous detail.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: And I should now be out if you've had trouble
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: finding them before. It should now be published on every
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: major platform. It's on Apple, it's on Spotify, and it's
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: on basically any other platform that you could think of
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: to look for podcasts. I think, so let us know
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: if you look for it and can't find it. But
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: certainly by the time this comes out, it should be
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: have been available for wee.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I still need to make the YouTube
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: connection happen. I think that's one thing that I had
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: to wait for the podcast to exist before I could
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: even begin to set that connection up. So it might
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: still not be on YouTube yet, but I will get there.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: A new episode came out today. The episode that came
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: out today was named Lava Lama.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Is that episode three? So that's the first thing that
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: wasn't in the wheel time spoilers feed. So you can
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: now finally get well, I mean, as of us recording this,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: by the time this publishes, we'll be able to get
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: far more than that. But now you can finally get
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: new episodes in the podcast that don't feed.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, truly new episodes. They exist well episode. The only
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: other books I can review are by proxy. My mom
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: has been getting some really cool books about the history
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: of sewing and fabric and then telling me about them
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: for the Used to Sew podcast, and that's been really fun.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: She's been very enamored with We've got one about it's
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: called Fabricating Consumers, about bringing the sewing machine to postward Japan,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: and another one called The Golden Thread, which is just
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: the history of textiles, like how it relates to the
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: formation of civilization and everything, like just the concept of
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: textiles and thread and weaving. And then she just got
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: one called Empire of Cotton, which is about how the
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: entire world the way it is, can be explained through
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: cotton as a crop and what it's done for our
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: economy and the movement of people and goods and the
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: industrial revolution and all of that. And then she just
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: bought a book today about sewing in the space industry
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: specifically and how sowing intersects with early and modern space stuff.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize how big textiles was in terms of
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: the economy for the world for most of history, right, Yeah,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: Basically you were either in making food or making clothes,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: like those are the two things you did. You either
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: were farm shit or or you like wove and sewed cloth,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: because basically all of human labor had to be in
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: doing one of those two things for us to survive, right, Yeah,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: there's a reason they say shelter, food and clothing, Like shelter,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: clothing and food are the pretty things you need, right
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: And like shelter you only need to build once, but
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: food and clothing you constantly have to make those.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And it's really time consuming to take a
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: fiber and turn it into a sheet of fabric. It's
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: really really time consuming by hand. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: so this is something I hadn't really appreciated about the
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: Industrial Revolution is like a good half of the reason
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: why we have the Industrial Revolution was to mechanize various
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: aspects of fabric production, from spinning thread to weaving fabric
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: to inventing and deploying the sewing machine. Like that was
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: the point of the spear for why the Industrial Revolution happened.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: That was like the motivating thing is how do we
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: make fab brick faster? And ultimately, you know, we end
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: up with the Transatlantic slave trade and the crashing of
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: India's fabric economy and like all this stuff, But like
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: the start of the industrial revolution is how can we
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: make thread faster? How can we speed that process up?
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: That's like a huge amount of the engineering power or
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: brain power that went into problem solving was for textiles tough.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Even down to the beginning of computing, right, because punch
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: cards were invented in order to make patterns in looms
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: for weaving, and those punch cards later became the foundation
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: of the original computers and that's how you were programming those. Basically,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: looms were our first computers, right, We programmed them to
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: make patterns, and from there that's the foundation in which
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: modern computing happened, and in which we were able to
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: then invent our first computers and do generalized computing. But yeah, no,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: I mean fabric. If you're on a computer, you can
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: have fabrics to thank for it, which is kind of crazy.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like sewing is profoundly integral. Yeah. My
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: mom's been just finding all these amazing books and then
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: reading me pass messages of them to inform what we're
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: talking about on that podcast. So I'm not reading any
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: of them, but it's been very fun learning that there's
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: so much about this to learn. It's fun. I like learning.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: I like you. When other people info dump at me,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: it's a good time.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that about you. I'm kidding.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: I know, it's such a surprise. I haven't told everyone
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: I know. Please infhodump at me. Let's start a podcast.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: Speaking of starting a podcast, do you want to actually
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: start this podcast?
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: consider supporting us on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watt
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: more podcasts from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: at foxendravenmedia dot com.