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Working Less and Living More · A Little Bit Richer

• 0:02
  Iona Bain: We all know striking the balance between work and life
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  Iona Bain: is hard. With hybrid working, it can be tricky to
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  Iona Bain: create boundaries where your professional time ends and your personal
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  Iona Bain: time begins. The way we're working is undoubtedly changing and
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  Iona Bain: with flexible working and the four- day week on the
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  Iona Bain: rise, there are lots of ways we can increase our
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  Iona Bain: productivity while avoiding burnout. I'm Iona Bain and welcome to
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  Iona Bain: A Little Bit Richer, brought to you by Legal and
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  Iona Bain: General. Here to chat with me today about getting the
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  Iona Bain: right work- life balance is Joe Ryle from the Four
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  Iona Bain: Day Week Foundation, the UK's National Independent Campaigning Organization that
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  Iona Bain: advocates for a reduction in the maximum working week from
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  Iona Bain: 48 to 32 hours by 2030, and for people to
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  Iona Bain: request a four- day working week with no loss of
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  Iona Bain: pay. That's quite an ask. So to give us a
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  Iona Bain: bit more information about how that might work, welcome, Joe.
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  Iona Bain: So we hear this term work- life balance a lot.
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  Iona Bain: What does it mean and how do you think the definition
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  Iona Bain: has evolved over time?
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  Joe Ryle: We used to work six- day working week a hundred
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  Joe Ryle: years ago.
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  Iona Bain: So working on a Saturday?
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  Joe Ryle: It took the best part of two decades. They were
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  Joe Ryle: like progressive business leaders like Ford Motor Company in America,
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  Joe Ryle: also trade unions pushing for this and they won the
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  Joe Ryle: weekend. My personal take on it as someone who was
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  Joe Ryle: working five days a week, six days a week for
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  Joe Ryle: a number of years, it didn't feel like a good balance.
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  Iona Bain: Why do you think this whole topic of work- life
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  Iona Bain: balance has come to the fore in recent times? When
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  Iona Bain: I was younger, when I was starting out in my
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  Iona Bain: career, I did hear about a work- life balance, but
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  Iona Bain: it felt like quite a distant concept. It didn't feel
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  Iona Bain: like something that was really available to me because the
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  Iona Bain: idea was you work hard, you get on and you
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  Iona Bain: get your head down. So why do you think work- life
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  Iona Bain: balance has become a more, if you like, popular concept?
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  Joe Ryle: So I think the Covid pandemic has been a catalyst for
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  Joe Ryle: totally rethinking the way that we work. I think that's
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  Joe Ryle: because we do have an unhealthy culture, which is a
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  Joe Ryle: culture of being addicted to really long working hours. The
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  Joe Ryle: data does speak for itself. We work some of the
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  Joe Ryle: longest full- time working hours across Europe, but at the
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  Joe Ryle: same time we have one of the least productive economies.
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  Joe Ryle: So what that suggests is that all these long working
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  Joe Ryle: hours we're not producing good results for the economy and
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  Joe Ryle: also not producing good results for workers.
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  Iona Bain: I've definitely been coming across more burnout in my career
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  Iona Bain: and in my life. Why do you think we are seeing more
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  Iona Bain: cases of burnout?
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  Joe Ryle: On a serious point, it is worrying that we do
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  Joe Ryle: have millions of workers that are getting burnt out on
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  Joe Ryle: a more regular basis. We have three million workers who
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  Joe Ryle: are out of work long- term sick. I think there
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  Joe Ryle: is a relationship there with this long working hours culture
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  Joe Ryle: we have. It's not good for our wellbeing. I also
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  Joe Ryle: think we've had this explosion of technology, smartphones, which has
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  Joe Ryle: created this always on culture where you never switch off.
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  Joe Ryle: You take your work to bed with you, you take
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  Joe Ryle: it back home. If you're on your phone, you can
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  Joe Ryle: respond at any point.
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  Iona Bain: Yeah, so I mean, how would we define burnout?
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  Joe Ryle: I think the official definition of burnout is stress when you're
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  Joe Ryle: just physically, emotionally exhausted. When we ran the biggest pilot
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  Joe Ryle: of a four- day working week in the world so
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  Joe Ryle: far, so it was 2022, we had 61 companies that
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  Joe Ryle: took part. So it was about 3000 employees. There was a
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  Joe Ryle: 71% overall reduction in burnout, so people feeling a lot
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  Joe Ryle: less stressed. I think there was a recent survey which
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  Joe Ryle: came out which was across Europe, I think 20 to 30,
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  Joe Ryle: 000 workers were asked about their motivations for what they're
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  Joe Ryle: looking for from their job. For the first time work-
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  Joe Ryle: life balance is higher than better pay. So actually for
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  Joe Ryle: the first time workers across Europe are, when they're going
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  Joe Ryle: into the workplace, they're looking for a work- life balance.
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  Joe Ryle: Now that's a significant shift and I do think that's
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  Joe Ryle: largely been driven by conversations that have happened since the
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  Joe Ryle: pandemic that have forced us to change. It has been
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  Joe Ryle: a hundred years of nine to five, five- day working
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  Joe Ryle: week, and the world of work has obviously transformed since
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  Joe Ryle: then. It's very different from that more agricultural or industrial era.
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  Iona Bain: It's fascinating that people would put that work- life balance
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  Iona Bain: ahead of income, which you would imagine would solve a
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  Iona Bain: lot of people's problems, especially in the cost of living
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  Iona Bain: crisis in this general economic environment. The feeling is that
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  Iona Bain: more money would be really, really helpful and yet work-
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  Iona Bain: life balance comes ahead.
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  Joe Ryle: Yeah. Well, I mean if you've got loads of money
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  Joe Ryle: but no time, then you can't really enjoy your life,
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  Joe Ryle: can you?
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  Iona Bain: I think a really big question that's on people's minds
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  Iona Bain: at the moment. Are we going to see at some
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  Iona Bain: point a return to the full- time, five day a week,
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  Iona Bain: in the office working model?
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  Joe Ryle: I don't think we're going back. If you look at
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  Joe Ryle: the polling and survey data on this, no one wants
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  Joe Ryle: to go back to five days a week in the
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  Joe Ryle: office. I do think we are moving forward to a
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  Joe Ryle: culture of work where workers have a bit more freedom,
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  Joe Ryle: a bit more autonomy from work.
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  Iona Bain: When I think back to the early part of my
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  Iona Bain: career, if I asked to work from home one day a
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  Iona Bain: week, it was like I was asking to be paid
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  Iona Bain: a million pounds a year. It just seemed absolutely impossible.
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  Iona Bain: Now it does feel like that has become more normalized.
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  Iona Bain: I guess the concern is that there are those big
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  Iona Bain: employers that can basically say, well, if you want a
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  Iona Bain: job with us, you've got to come in five days
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  Iona Bain: a week and that's all there is to it.
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  Joe Ryle: Perhaps for now, they can still get away with that
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  Joe Ryle: in some cases, but to normalize that workers can request
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  Joe Ryle: a better balance in their lives where they've got more
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  Joe Ryle: time for childcare, friends, hobbies, whatever it is in their
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  Joe Ryle: life. We are in a place where we've had decades
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  Joe Ryle: and decades of a culture that's been addicted to work
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  Joe Ryle: and that's been put front and center. We're at the
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  Joe Ryle: very beginning of that shift. If you look at also some
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  Joe Ryle: of the survey data, it is the young generation coming
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  Joe Ryle: through now who are saying, I don't want work to
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  Joe Ryle: dominate my life in the same way that maybe it
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  Joe Ryle: has done for their grandparents' generation, their parents' generation. So
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  Joe Ryle: there is that cultural shift taking place, but it will
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  Joe Ryle: take time. These things don't change overnight.
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  Iona Bain: That's a very interesting shift because as I said, in
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  Iona Bain: the early part of my career, it was all about
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  Iona Bain: hard work and there will be people who will say
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  Iona Bain: that work is a joy. If you can find a
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  Iona Bain: job that you really love you'll want to go in
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  Iona Bain: and do it five days a week and you'll want
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  Iona Bain: to work as hard as you possibly can, what would
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  Iona Bain: you say to that?
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  Joe Ryle: You can actually work harder in four days rather than
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  Joe Ryle: five. Spreading the working week over 40 hours when workers
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  Joe Ryle: are better rested, when they have a better work- life
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  Joe Ryle: balance, you come back in a Monday morning refreshed, more
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  Joe Ryle: motivated and you can perform better. A rested worker is a
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  Joe Ryle: better worker.
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  Iona Bain: That makes a lot of sense. I guess there's always
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  Iona Bain: that concern that if you're trying to squeeze five days
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  Iona Bain: into four, then actually that puts a lot of pressure
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  Iona Bain: on those employees then to fit a pint into a
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  Iona Bain: quart bottle, if you see what I mean, and to
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  Iona Bain: try to fit more into less time. Could that cause
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  Iona Bain: more stress in the long term?
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  Joe Ryle: I think it's something we need to be wary of and
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  Joe Ryle: they're not going to pretend everything about a four- day
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  Joe Ryle: working week is perfect. There may be some downsides there
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  Joe Ryle: if workers need to figure out the reframing of the
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  Joe Ryle: work that they're doing.
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  Iona Bain: So what are some of the downsides of a four-
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  Iona Bain: day working week and how could those be managed?
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  Joe Ryle: Definitely some of the downsides we hear about are there
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  Joe Ryle: not being enough time for staff being together, that social
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  Joe Ryle: time. We have seen that managed by companies being really
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  Joe Ryle: strict about putting something in the diary like once every
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  Joe Ryle: month to make sure that does happen. There's certainly industries
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  Joe Ryle: and sectors where it is going to be more complex
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  Joe Ryle: to implement. It is also about working differently. We often
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  Joe Ryle: inherit ways of working that go back decades and actually
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  Joe Ryle: we've found the newer startup organization are much more agile
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  Joe Ryle: and able to adjust to something like a four- day
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  Joe Ryle: week much easier.
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  Iona Bain: Is there a particular group of people or are there
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  Iona Bain: particular groups of people for whom this could be quite
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  Iona Bain: a good model?
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  Joe Ryle: We think in the long term, the vast majority of the economy
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  Joe Ryle: could shift to a four- day working week, but we've
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  Joe Ryle: been honest about the fact it is going to be
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  Joe Ryle: more difficult in certain sectors, in certain areas of the
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  Joe Ryle: economy. It will be more complex to implement and we
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  Joe Ryle: might have to be more creative about how we implement
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  Joe Ryle: it. I mean, I do also want to stress that
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  Joe Ryle: working a four- day week isn't just about doing everything that
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  Joe Ryle: you should do in a five- day week, but packing
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  Joe Ryle: it into four days. It is that opportunity to work
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  Joe Ryle: differently. To really look at the work that everyone's doing, bring
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  Joe Ryle: the team together, to work more strategically and work more
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  Joe Ryle: effectively and to get the rewards of people being better
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  Joe Ryle: rested and then being more effective.
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  Iona Bain: So could we see a rise in things like job
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  Iona Bain: sharing for instance? Could that be a potential solution to
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  Iona Bain: some of those challenges that you might face with a four-
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  Iona Bain: day week?
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  Joe Ryle: I think we'll see more and more of that. I
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  Joe Ryle: think ultimately this wider conversation about flexible working, four- day
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  Joe Ryle: working week, what it's all about is that workers want
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  Joe Ryle: more freedom and more autonomy from work, and that will probably
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  Joe Ryle: happen in different ways. I think there will be job sharing, there'll
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  Joe Ryle: be more part- time work. We've also got the elephant
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  Joe Ryle: in the room as well as artificial intelligence coming in, which
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  Joe Ryle: is doing a lot of the tasks that we do
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  Joe Ryle: in our day- to- day jobs. So our argument on
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  Joe Ryle: that was, well, if we want workers and people to
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  Joe Ryle: benefit from AI, then we should all be having a
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  Joe Ryle: shorter working week because it's doing some of the tasks
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  Joe Ryle: that we used to be able to do.
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  Iona Bain: So if you are keen to work fewer hours, what
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  Iona Bain: are the options available for you? How can you bring
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  Iona Bain: that idea of working more flexibly or working less with
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  Iona Bain: your employer? I can imagine it might be quite a tricky
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  Iona Bain: conversation to have.
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  Joe Ryle: Yeah, the government have strengthened the flexible working rights in
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  Joe Ryle: the last couple of years, so anyone as an employee
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  Joe Ryle: can now request more flexible way of working. Now that's not a
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  Joe Ryle: four day, 32- hour working week as we advocate for,
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  Joe Ryle: but there's different versions of flexible working weeks that you
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  Joe Ryle: can offer to get a week that is more balanced.
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  Iona Bain: So let's chat through that because it may be that
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  Iona Bain: a four- day week would not be on the table
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  Iona Bain: for certain employees. A nurse, for instance. Could there be other
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  Iona Bain: things that they could ask for instead that would help
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  Iona Bain: them achieve that balance and those boundaries in their life?
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  Joe Ryle: You can ask for job sharing, part- time work, compressed
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  Joe Ryle: hours where you're doing the same amount of hours, but
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  Joe Ryle: over a four- day week, you can also ask for a nine-
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  Joe Ryle: day fortnight. Actually increasingly, we're seeing hundreds of companies move
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  Joe Ryle: to nine day fortnight rather than a four- day week,
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  Joe Ryle: which is halfway there. So they'll reduce the working hours,
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  Joe Ryle: but one week they're doing five days and the next
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  Joe Ryle: week they're doing four.
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  Iona Bain: That's interesting. I haven't come across the nine- day fortnight
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  Iona Bain: as much, but maybe that's a bit more of a
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  Iona Bain: halfway house.
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  Joe Ryle: Yes.
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  Iona Bain: Another question I have is that what are people spending
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  Iona Bain: that day off doing? I'm quite curious because I've read
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  Iona Bain: about quite recently that there's been a big rise in
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  Iona Bain: the number of people going to the golf club or
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  Iona Bain: going to the hairdressers or doing things that they would
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  Iona Bain: otherwise do on the weekend midweek. So a lot of
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  Iona Bain: these businesses within the economy are seeing a bit of
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  Iona Bain: a midweek boom. So I think that's quite interesting and
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  Iona Bain: it points to the fact that people maybe are making
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  Iona Bain: the most of that day off, but what are you
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  Iona Bain: seeing in terms of how people are using that day?
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  Joe Ryle: I think it's a real mix. Some of the anecdotal feedback we
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  Joe Ryle: get back is people just doing their life admin, catching
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  Joe Ryle: up on the things as you say, they haven't had
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  Joe Ryle: time to do in the week. In Valencia, the government
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  Joe Ryle: trialed a four- day week every Friday for a month.
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  Joe Ryle: I think it was in April. It was interesting that
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  Joe Ryle: that study found that actually the hospitality service sector really
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  Joe Ryle: boomed on that Friday. So I do think there's real,
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  Joe Ryle: real benefits of this for hospitality industry.
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  Iona Bain: Mind you, I imagine in Valencia just sitting outside with
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  Iona Bain: a coffee or a beer, it's going to be a
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  Iona Bain: bit more attractive than here in the UK, right?
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  Joe Ryle: These days it's hot in July and August.
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  Iona Bain: Well, true. Yeah, you can make the most of it,
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  Iona Bain: I'm sure. So, Joe, what are the three simple things
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  Iona Bain: that someone can do to maintain healthy boundaries at work
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  Iona Bain: whatever their working model is?
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  Joe Ryle: So I think a big one is being really aware
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  Joe Ryle: of your screen time use and trying to set some
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  Joe Ryle: clear boundaries to when work starts and ends. The danger
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  Joe Ryle: of working from home is that actually those lines are
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  Joe Ryle: so much more blurry.
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  Iona Bain: Oh, absolutely.
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  Joe Ryle: Also having time where potentially you put your phone away
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  Joe Ryle: from your desk. Maybe you're not even checking your emails,
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  Joe Ryle: you're just really focusing on the work that you need
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  Joe Ryle: to get done. Two, take your annual leave. Take your
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  Joe Ryle: bank holidays. Workers have fought for those over generations. Take
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  Joe Ryle: them and enjoy that time off. Also take a lunch
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  Joe Ryle: break. There's too many people, including myself sometimes, who will
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  Joe Ryle: sit at your computer screen for an hour with a
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  Joe Ryle: sandwich next to you and that's not good either.
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  Iona Bain: No. Try to avoid al desko.
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  Joe Ryle: Yeah, exactly. Get to the park, have a walk.
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  Iona Bain: That's a great idea. Yeah. Really thought- provoking. Lots to
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  Iona Bain: consider. Thank you, Joe. Next time, financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal
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  Iona Bain: will be here to help us work out the psychology
• 11:56
  Iona Bain: behind our spending. Sounds very intriguing. I'd love it if
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  Iona Bain: Legal and General. Thanks for listening. Until next time, see
• 12:14
  Iona Bain: you soon.