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Kitchen Witchcraft, Magpie Tarot, & Trusting Your Intuition with Rachel Patterson · Coffee & Divination

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  it took me a long time to learn to trust my intuition and when I didn't I fell flat on my face but it does take experience to learn that and to learn to trust it so that is key for me learning to trust your intuition and connection I don't think you can work witchcraft or magic or even divination without being connected to the energy of the cards of the runes the energy of the land that you stand on that we're all connected and that for me wherever I am in my house or in a field somewhere I'm connected to the land so connection and intuition they both take a bit of time experience and patience to learn but for me two very key elements welcome to coffee and divination a podcast about the arts of obtaining hidden knowledge in changing times join me Joanna Ferrar to chat with experts from around the world on tarot geomancy and the many ways divination can help us navigate and plan our paths ahead today's conversation with Rachel Patterson is one that I'm sure you're going to enjoy I certainly enjoyed having her on the show and before we dive into that just a couple of quick things as this episode is going out I will be at the beginning of something myself that I've looked forward to for many many years which is walking the Kumano Kodo pilgrimage route in Japan some of the aspects of this journey are ones that are going to tie into other aspects of my work in the next few years so whether you're listening to this episode right as it's coming out or you found it much later if you'd like to follow along with that journey come say hello over on Instagram or send me an email through the website at coffee and divination.com and of course at this time of recording there are only a few spots left for the first inaugural cohort of the divination course that will be happening live and weekly starting in November and you can check out those details on the website as well today's guest Rachel Patterson is an English pagan witch a high priestess of the Kitchen Witch Coven the host of the Pagan Portals podcast and an associate publisher at Moon Books she's been practicing witchcraft for decades now and she is the author of more than 30 books on witchcraft paganism plants the elements and many other things along the way one of the things I particularly enjoyed about this conversation was how those decades of experience and practice come through in the way that Rachel practices we talk about Rachel's flower magic Oracle which she created from plants and photographs in her own garden her very unique magpie tarot method and of course what intuition has to do with creativity when it comes to the creation of our own divinatory meanings and understandings of fate as well as creation from the perspective of creating art and writings she also touches on witchcraft as a daily practice and how to refine connections that we may have lost touch with in the past so grab some coffee or tea if you happen to have that nearby and I hope you enjoy this conversation with Rachel it is my pleasure to have on the show Rachel Patterson someone who is a prolific author as you have heard from her her biography and also someone who I highly respect for the work that she has done for so many years and it is really a pleasure to have her on the show so thank you so much for making time yeah thank you for inviting me pleasure to be here alright so we have a traditional first question on the show and it is what was your first exposure to divination and so that could be the first time that you read cards or did something with divination or somebody in your family who had a connection to divination or like a TV show even that you loved that involved something um what was your first exposure would you say to those arts I would say it would have to be tarot when I started this journey 35 years ago it sounds really it's scary when you say that number out loud I it was before internet uh it was before online shopping so I had to find whatever I could get my hands on really and tarot cards were around so I bought myself a set of tarot cards looked at them put them back in the box and that's where they sat for a few more years I did come back to them eventually but yes it was a deck of tarot cards was my first divination tool so when you did pick that box back up again what inspired you to do that or I can't there's kind of two questions there why do you think you didn't gravitate to it right away why did you put it down and then why did you pick it back up again do you think I think it was I think I thought it was too complicated at first with the amount of cards and learning all of those things and because I was learning the pathway as well there was so much information that I think it was a bit overwhelming to be honest at first I also think I'm not looking back on it I don't think I actually resonated with the deck that I'd got so I've ended up I do read tarot that's my main divination tool now I have a very strange tarot deck now nothing like the one that I first picked up I think that was it I think it was overwhelming because there was so many things I thought I had to learn all of the meanings off pat to just reel it off and I actually took courses over the years several courses over the years with various decks and none of it really stuck until I realized my intuition was the key I didn't need to learn all of those things exactly as the book said in fact don't look at the book I now that I rely on my intuition I have a very unique deck of 150 cards all from different decks duplicates of some Oracle cards in there as well and I just read them intuitively and it it falls into place somehow well I definitely want to talk to you about that deck and how you use it but I I kind of want to save that for for just a little bit so you had the deck that you didn't really resonate with and you had to kind of like figure out what it was that was going to be your style of reading yeah can you tell us a little bit about what interested you in paganism and Wicca to begin with what got you started on that path on the the other sides of it I think probably the fact that I'm born on Halloween was kind of fate written in the stars as they say but my upbringing my father is not pagan but very much connected to nature to animals to organic gardening in England when I was younger places like Stonehenge weren't roped off or fenced off literally you could park on the verge and go and have a picnic in the center of Stonehenge when I was little and that's what we used to do we used to visit the historic sites so I think my father kind of steered me in the nature history side of things and I always loved dragons and stories about witches and dragons the Arthurian legends I loved as a child but it was when I was whatever I was 20 something I found a book on witchcraft in a in a thrift charity shop and I thought well that looks interesting read it it was a history of witchcraft it wasn't a pagan book it was a history book and it made so much sense everything fell into place and that was it that that's what started it all the charity shops are so important for so many things yes yes great for witchcraft on so many levels yes um so through that you have you have written so many books on so many different topics when you were sort of like first in the craft what were the elements of it outside of of course you know nature being so important what were the styles or the traditions of witchcraft that you encountered first or what kind of like helped you along that early stage of the path when I when I first found my pathway it was pre internet pre anything so it was quite difficult to find information particularly over here in England there were a few books mostly they were American Wicca which was it got me started it absolutely got me started and I devoured whatever I could get my hands on when internet kind of at home became a thing I joined an online school and I have worked my way through the three wiccan degrees which kind of gave me my foundation really I have since wandered away from that pathway and pick and mix all different bits and pieces Druidry or hedge witchcraft kitchen witchcraft and kind of made my own pathway from that but that Wiccan base gave me the structure but I I like learning to a structure and that gave me what I needed taught me the basics gave me the foundation that I could then branch out from so I'm a little bit miscellaneous these days oh that is that is fabulous so you you mentioned a a term that I I would really love to hear your definition or or how you think with the term kitchen witch I've I've had a few conversations with different witches and pagans and practitioners about the labeling of different pathways and some are super pro it and I get I really do see both sides of that I I like the idea of giving labels to things I feel like sometimes it can get a little overly limiting but kitchen which is so ubiquitous now online how do you define that and why why use that term I think essentially we in the pagan world we are on the fringes we are in the liminal spaces but I think we're also humans so we do like to feel part of things as well so it's getting that balance kitchen witchcraft me I love cooking well I love baking specifically but a lot of my practice does stem from working magic with whatever I've got in the kitchen cupboards my spice rack my even my fridge my bags of flour and pasta and whatever it might be I work magic with food just as much as I do work with herbs and plants cause I love my garden as well so the kitchen witchcraft for me is about working magic with ingredients not always perhaps the more well known ones with with every type of food and adding magic to whatever food I'm preparing or cooking with but for me it also expands to working magic with whatever you've got to hand no fancy or expensive tools I mean I've had all of those I've the athame the chalice and all the fancy stuff but these days it's more about using whatever I've got to hand so it might be a casserole dish instead of a cauldron or a wooden spoon instead of a wand but also working magic with household items your mobile phone or literally whatever's in your handbag so for me that kind of it it expands from food into making magic with whatever you've got to hand including all of the items that nature provides as well and that I think also ties into not just you know what we have to hand but also where and when we are in time yes so how do you feel like that's that ties in with seasonality and what we're doing at different times of the year cause I also believe that like different forms of divination at least for myself and my practice I will be doing more of different types of divination even at different times of the year so oh yes yeah I think seasonality I think for me is really important particularly when it comes to food I think eating seasonally not only is it cheaper and it tastes better but it also helps you connect with the earth with Mother Earth with what's happening around you at the moment connection is a big key for me whether I am connected to the land I live on the land spirits all the ingredients that I'm using but connecting to the energy of all that is really important for me we do still have seasons in England I'm sure they don't feel as defined as they used to be when I was a child we've just had a ridiculously hot summer which is very unusual for us but it it's that connection to the seasons the connection to what's happening with the land with Mother Earth with all of the weather around us I connect every day I don't necessarily follow the wheel of the year as such I know that's a bit more of a modern idea but I'd rather check with the energies of the day and wherever I am what area I am in rather than a date on a calendar or a Celebration on the calendar I'd rather connect to the energy of that specific moment and work with that yes and you mentioned you mentioned baking and you know the the practice of eating and things like that are there are there pieces of the way that we connect to food I know that that is that is something you have written a lot about so it's like see her published works as part of the answer to this question but is there something about like the ritualizing of that or something about the way that we pay attention to food that you might wanna share with people of of why you think that's so important I think as witches we're probably so used to putting a spell together with ingredients uh or even divination I'm divination you can create and you know you can create divination with all sorts of things we've even we've even divined with cake crumbs on a plate before now I love it I love that we are back to that connection as witches we're probably used to bringing all the ingredients together we need for a spell whether it's a bit of frankincense a bit of whatever that herb is that plant mugwort what a root of this and you can do the same thing with your ingredients in your kitchen so whenever I'm baking or cooking or making anything I connect with the energy of that ingredient whether it is flour butter cinnamon whatever it might be I'm connecting with the energy of those ingredients not always to work magic specifically but just connecting with the energy of that to feel it really and to bring magic into the food that I'm making for my family or my friends or whoever it might be yeah it it absolutely does make a difference not just in how it tastes but also then what its effects are so the blessing of your food is a tradition in so many places for a reason yes so you mentioned the I'm I'm just gonna ask the question this is not usually something that I would do but it's definitely not on my questions explain the cake crumb divination what did you do a divination is just reading isn't it it's reading whatever is in front of you whether it that is images on tarot cards or the symbols on runes and we've done it when we're out and about we've done it with the way that twigs have fallen or leaves or flower petals whatever it might be but when you've eaten a piece of cake for example there will be crumbs on the plate so if you've got a question ask your question and then look and see where the crumbs have fallen have they fallen in a particular pattern or are there groups of them or it's like tea leaf reading but with cake crumbs I love it yes and so just with that are you try like do you do tea leaf reading reading or coffee ground reading or anything like that I have done it's not one of my particular areas of divination to work with but I have done before yes yeah of course yeah and that is something that I think you and I most definitely agree with which is that if it exists in the world and it has any type of randomization we can use it for divination and contact absolutely so let's talk about your beautiful magpie tarot thing that you were mentioning earlier so you have one can you just go over how did that start where where did that idea of having this giant deck come from I have jumped around from deck to deck trying to find one that I resonated with uh the Thoth Deck has been one of my favorites over the years um I've actually got my day it just happens to be beside me here actually um there was an advert on social media uh and it was for the alimon tarot deck and it was a starter deck and I think there was a there was 110 cards or something and they literally collected them from all different decks there's at least one of each of the usual tarot cards there are duplicates of some there are six death cards in there but they all have slightly different meanings then there's some random Oracle cards in there as well and I thought that sounds fun and at the minute I received it I loved it and I've then added to it some cards I've taken out because they didn't resonate other cards I have added to it from other decks it means I've got some tarot decks that have got several cards missing but but my actual deck is now huge wow it is really difficult to shuffle but it works it it just works because the cards that I like stay there or the cards not all like cause we know they're not all lovely fluffy cards but the cards that I can connect with are all there the ones that I don't connect with get tossed and other ones get added to it it works yeah so for those who I I think that the idea of the ones that you connect with I want to be clear because you you already said not all of them are fluffy so when we're talking about cards that we connect to it's not just the ones that are like oh it's such a pretty empress oh no the deck of only empresses I would love that I would love for every tarot reading that I did to only give me her and a few others so what do you mean by like connecting with one particularly cards that are a little bit more challenging is it just ones that speak to you or ones how would you define that ones that speak to me I think there are always going to be in it I'm not a big fan of the hierophant that's the card in the if I could throw all of those out I would but I know you have to keep at least one of them in there cause it's got meaning there will always be cards that you find difficult I think personally there's a whole other reflection of that isn't there but there are some cards that you I like cards with details with colours with designs with things that I can pick images out of particularly I think with this with the like four of cups if it's just four cups my brain says no that's boring I want something with a bit more imagery to it because that works for me so the plain 4 of cups card would be thrown out and one with more imagery in it would be added because that's how I work or my intuition works with the cards so in terms of that I I find that it's fascinating cause there are some forms of of divination like geomancy where you can actually pull you can end up mathematically having the same character show up in a spread several times whereas with you're doing tarot with only one of each card you you you could not get the Empress more than once so it couldn't end up in two different places just by the nature of the randomization so that allows you to have a depth to it in terms of its continuing evolution are you still adding and taking away or is it now would you say it's set oh yes oh yes okay I added I added four cards from a deck a while back and they kept coming up every single reading these cards kept coming up which is brilliant because I obviously connected with them but I got bored with seeing them so they came out and some others got added too but I always keep I always make sure there is at least one of each of the actual tarot cards in there but as I say death there's six different ones of those but they've all got different meanings but they've all got slightly one is endings completely one is what do you what do you keep digging up ha ha that should actually be buried they've all got those different slightly different meanings to them and the same as I think I've only got one Empress card in there but if I had two it would be because they had slightly different meanings to them uh huh yeah that's really beautiful when you like for example is that a deck that you read mostly for yourself or is that something that you also work with with other people yeah I'm rubbish at reading for myself I am absolutely rubbish at reading for myself no I what I actually do is myself and I've got a team Heather and Ness we work together we read together we do our readings together so I do tarot ness does the elder Futhark runes and Heather does a bone she's got a bone set and we will read together for one person which is quite interesting we I think we share a brain the readings generally echo all the same thing for each person I can I read for other people but myself I think I see what I want to see in it absolutely yeah there's there's definitely some questions that I I will kick to somebody else right away cause I know yeah know thyself is an important part of being a deviant yes yes it's interesting cause our coven that's actually the the title of this podcast came from a practice which is that our coven will sit down and read together and have coffee and divination that's literally where the show came from and we will do the same thing where we'll read all for one person and it is remarkable how each person will have like a different angle like a different frame from the same moving picture of what's going on yes perfect so you also have a you created the flower magic Oracle I believe oh that was going back a bit yes I know so I was just wondering cause I love the creation of oracles and the idea of incorporating nature into what we are doing with both our magic and our divination so do you have you created anything else like that and just even though it is a little ways back can you just tell us something about that that actually came all the flowers and all the photographs that are in that deck are from my garden so I have worked directly with each of those plants and they're not all the typical ones and they aren't based I mean some of them like the Astrantia flower beautiful flower but doesn't have traditional meanings so I connected with the spirit of each of those plants to get my own meanings from them so that was quite a personal journey because I'd worked with them all um Oracle decks we have done an own deck uh myself and the team and we also did recently we did a wildflower deck we go out quite a lot whether it's to festivals or events or just out to visit historic places and realised that there are so many wild plants in the hedgerows in the fields beside the road and we didn't know what a lot of them were so we we actually created an Oracle really for learning curve for ourselves really to learn about all these plants that to be able to recognise them but also again to connect with the energies of them and that's been that's an ongoing journey actually we're still finding the odd plants and adding them to the collection as it were that's fantastic and I think that that that connection then to it's the divination that's around you as well so it's it's immediately intimately involved with with where you are and who is speaking to you right there that you then were giving time to by learning about them absolutely just learning the names is is uh something that can give us a lot even if it's not more information than that so that's that's really beautiful you are a prolific writer as I have said several times and as people are aware of so I feel like talking about the intuition of like you were saying creating that that flower Oracle involves sort of allowing both what you've Learned about the plants and then your own personal experience with them to speak through you so how do you feel that your your witchcraft practice and all these other things play into how you've been able to write so much how do you view your your process of being able to create so much cause I think that creativity flow is so fascinating oh you can't shut me up basically I don't know ha ha ha it was all accidental it was 2,012 when I wrote my first book so it wasn't something that I've started doing or ever dreamed of doing it was never on my bucket list uh and it was Moon Books uh the editor Trevor I'd been reviewing books for them for a little while I'd written for a couple of magazines and he was asking for subjects for his new Pagan Portals series introduction books and I said what about kitchen witchcraft and he said brilliant will you write it and when I finished panicking and laid down in a dark room for a while to kind of get over the shock of it I thought yeah you know what I can do I can do this and that it snowballed from there really that was 2,012 yeah I'm up to book 34 now so but they're all areas of the craft that I've worked with they're all I would never write about anything that I have not experienced or not worked with myself my books I like to think are easy to understand there's nothing complicated about them they are straightforward I write as I speak like you're sitting around the kitchen table with a cup of coffee and I you know just air all different areas of witchcraft my favourite areas that I love to work with really um I've been a bit busier this year but so I haven't done a lot of writing but yeah it just flowed from there really so after the the lying down in the dark room and getting back up again are there are there any subjects that you initially thought you might write on that when you sat down to start working on it you're like no you know what maybe not or projects that didn't flow as easily like have there been times when you felt blocked while you were trying to do this work oh yeah haha I I think there's some if I went back now to the rewrite the first ones they would be completely different because our pathways change don't they I mean I'm well 2,012 was a long time ago our pathways definitely change and I I hope my style of writing has gotten better as well I should be quite well practiced with it now so I think there are things I well I know there are things I would definitely change there is something weird I think that happens when you start writing there's a lot of I'll see a quote from something and think oh that's interesting and then realize that it's something I wrote like 10 years ago cause my brain it just kind of bit bit of a brain like a sieve but I do generally find once I get going it flows I actually love the research part most I think I am writing it a slightly more historic book at the moment about Roman Britain for Moonbooks new history series that's a bit of a challenge cause that's a bit of a grown up book I've got to do lots of research for it but it's that research bit that I love because I learn so many new things as well and there's so many moments when I think that makes sense that you know but mostly with the witchcraft stuff I will write my draft out and then I will when I go back over it I think what that's a load of rubbish let's rewrite that bit it is a process definitely a process but you learn stuff along the way as well which is all part of the journey really I think I totally agree I think it's the best part as long as you don't get too stuck I feel like I don't I probably have at some point had this problem but of getting stuck in the research phase as as a excuse not to then go into the creating phase but a good balance is important you can get lost can't you you can you go down different rabbit holes and you do get lost you have to remember to pull yourself back so that you do actually write something down and I think that that's that's also kind of ties into divination and magic in an interesting way because you have as you mentioned there very much an editor hat as well and it's with divination when I'm talking to people about it I think that there's sometimes it depends on the style of divination that you're doing but we also have to allow flow to happen before we start trying to throw all of our interpretations on it which to me is kind of similar to the process of not editing when you're first creating yes how do you how do you kind of separate your two hats when you're when you're trying to do this and that could be divination or writing or any of these things I think I mean I have been a I'm a associate publisher for Moon Books now but that's only been for the last couple of years before then I hated editing it was it was the part of the process that I hated the most now I'm editing other people's books it's fabulous I don't maybe it's the power I don't know she's admitted it I am yeah no I I think it is I get to read the books from the start which is fantastic I hate editing my own but other people's is fascinating uh but it is all I am learning a new divination skill actually I am learning the Anglo Saxon runes at the moment which is tricky I've never I've never been able to connect with runes they've always been little squiggles to me but the gods have other ideas and I've been directed to learn Anglo Saxon runes there's a lot less information on them than the elder Futhark runes and it's a process but it is one that I am I've made my own runes so I am connecting with them from the start from that basic piece of wood me drawing the design on and then working with them on a daily basis because I get nagged at if I don't but it is about I could read a book I could read that but there aren't there's any you know not even a handful of books on the Anglo Saxon runes so a lot of it is going back to the original Anglo Saxon scripts poems about them and making my own meanings from them it is about sitting with that rune each day and seeing what happens during my day it's an experience rather than me just looking a book and writing down someone else's meanings for that one I'm having to actually live with that rune each day different one each day and learn from that process and it's been fascinating absolutely fascinating how much falls into place so yes so it is that that experiential piece of when you're directed that you need to write a thing then there's another piece that you have to add in which means you have to live it first before you can I am I am obviously only really familiar with the elder Futhark that's what I use so I'll be excited when the Anglo Saxon but there's 33 Anglo Saxon runes so there are some different ones in there but it's a it's a journey writing a book is a journey it's going with the flow a lot of the time and when you are kind of like in the middle of that flow are there things that you do for example you just said like you get a poke that you need to work with the uh with this system of divination that you're going to be writing about and therefore it needs to be a daily practice other other forms of and this is either in the witchcraft or divination or writing I mean all the arts are are one when we really get down to it are there ways that you incorporate these things into your life or structures that you put in place in order to make sure that you have like sort of a system for what you're going to do or is it more like your practices flow and change a lot over time I think all of the above yes and I do like structure I like a structure when I'm learning something I also like to write things by hand not journaling cause I am a bit rubbish at journaling but if I'm writing meditations or spells for something I find that writing it by hand pen and a notepad it flows or it seems to flow a lot easier for me it means I end up typing loads up and typing up all my notes but something that's more on the creative side like meditation does seem to flow better for me when I'm writing it by hand rather than typing it and I find that when I'm learning things as well so all of my learning of the runes is in a notebook written by hand I seem to take it in more if I'm writing it down rather than typing it if that makes any kind of sense and is there anything that you have cause I feel like as you mentioned our practices change over the years and you have many many years of experience at all of this are there elements of what you used to do that if you could go back and and tell the younger version of you no don't waste your time on that or yeah I I wish I wouldn't have spent so long on that or I mean I know that's not fair because of course it is the things that we do that that make us who we are in the moment but are there practices or things that you would be like if I if I could tell her not to waste her energy on ex I know I think you're right I think it is I don't necessarily work with Wiccan practices now but they gave me a structure they gave me a base they gave me a foundation and I think everything that I have worked through I've taken perhaps a little something from and added it to my own personal practice I am say 35 years into the pagan I am a lot older than 35 obviously but 35 years of actual practicing my pathway's just tweaked and I've gone off on this Anglo Saxon pathway and it it has turned my entire practice upside down and inside out I'm doing a load of things now differently than I've ever done before and connecting with deity in a different way and learning the runes and all this new stuff and there's a part of me that says really after all this time all of that learning all of that practice that I've done thus far and you're flipping it all on its head now but actually it's exciting it's overwhelming but I think there's also a big part of it that says you weren't ready for it before everything that you have learnt so far everything that you have experienced so far has LED you to this point it it wouldn't have happened 10 years ago'cause you weren't ready so I'm I'm taking that as a positive I'd say like like the runes 10 years ago I'd I'd just looked at them and would have thought no that just that's doesn't it's not part of my practice now it feels really important because the time is ready for it now and that's also also being know thyself again of of recognizing what it is that you need in the moment and what you're what you are really authentically being pulled towards yes yeah and you have a book that is coming out that is more aimed at daily practice I believe so can you tell us a little bit about that cause I feel like we're already talking about that right now it all kind of started back in the dark days of lockdown and covid and all of that fun and games we had and shortly after that we had a big house renovation and everything changed all of my altar all of my magical tools everything was all packed up so we'd already had the time when we couldn't get out and have ritual with other folk we couldn't contact each other my practice suffered then then this house renovation when everything got packed up and I didn't have access to anything divination tools magic tools anything I disconnected I completely disconnected from it all and when I realised that that's the slump I was in and the house got finished thankfully I wanted something to bring me back but it's quite a big step if you have fallen off the witchcraft wagon completely and I didn't really know where to start so the book came about from me putting together my own suggestions my own structure of daily practice to bring myself back into it really and I know you you can't walk us through the whole book but what would you say some of the the biggest pieces of that puzzle was for me it's usually the altar and I've fallen off of the wagon a few times before it's usually the altar because all of my stuff was all cleared away I had to set up a fresh altar and that for me is a clean sweep and a fresh start sometimes I've actually in the past left my altar quite bare waiting for I don't think you should just let's chuck all this stuff on there because it's an altar it needs this it needs that I think intuition pays plays a big part here so it is about putting things that have meaning on the altar rather than just that's what should be on there so I've got to put that on there so it is intuition big key thing anyway but the altar for me that's a focal point it is your sacred space it is your place to meditate your place to work spells that's quite a key point I think for any daily practice is to have that place uh just give a nod to even I have tried putting it in a spare room doesn't work I don't go in the spare room and then I end up forgetting that it's I mean I've got lots like most witches I have altars all over the place I've ended up now with my altar in our hallway so that I literally have to walk past it several times a day so that I know it's there so that I acknowledge it so I I think the altar is perhaps a key starting point for me anyway yeah that's that is so true and then it can radiate outward of practices and things and inspiration from there yeah and I know divination I know a lot of people do a daily draw on divination what I've included in the book is working with your tarot or your Oracle deck but not for a daily pull to see what's going to happen that day but for a daily pull for inspiration so if you pull the Fool card learn something new that day look at a new practice look at something that you've not done before so using the cards as an inspiration for to do some a prompt to do something witchy or spiritual rather than actually give you an idea of what your day is going to be so using your tarot cards in a slightly different way that's one of the things I included I love that I love that because it's it's almost like the idea of accepting the Oracle where when you receive a piece of advice it's really only more powerful when you act on it at least that's that's one of my opinion so then you are immediately saying ah I've accepted the fool I will now make that a part of my day so yes but yes yeah make it happen yes yeah and also then you are you are taking on that on in a positive aspect so that so you're not yeah don't jump off cliffs or anything no but you are deciding that how that will also show up for you at least in once yeah you're in control that's very beautiful and is there anything that I'm I'm curious because you as you've said your practice has changed is there anything about your practice from the time when you first started that you think has remained almost not the same but that's like a key element that is always been there maybe it is the altar but I'm just curious is there something that you would say was like a through line that when you look at it it's like well that's still there I yeah I think altered probably but it's the basics one of the first things I learnt about were the elements earth air fire water I still they are they still form a very big part of my practice and that was one of the first things that I learnt about that they are in absolutely everything um yeah I think there's elements of all of it a deity has been with me right from the start connecting to the spirit the land has been with me from the start that probably even before I knew what it was dragon magic is a huge part and that's been with me since I was born I just didn't realize it at the time but I think Wicca it has such a good structure to it most of the rituals that most groups perform are based on that wicked ritual structure because it works yeah yeah having that structure in all of this really does help even if we are still flexible with it and allow it to change over time that's also very key so yeah I don't like rules I don't like being told what to do well that's an interesting thing I I have one more question then before we kind of start in our our wrap up questions when you think with divination and like you as you say you practice divination in a team as well how is your what is the the way that you encourage people to think with what divination gives us like some people will go more in the direction of oh I do divination and then I do the spell work immediately after to remediate or to change something or I just do it as a acceptance practice or it's more psychological and it's telling me something about my internal state like how do you think how do you encourage people to think with what divination gives them when they practice it I think it's important to remember that it's not set in stone but there's this whole Hollywood Disney idea isn't there that oh the death card that's it that's like Mr Bond isn't it ha ha ha the death card that's it you're all it's all done with I think it's about looking at the bigger picture but it's all also about knowing that you can change these things it's not written in stone you have control over these things uh we are in this big web of weird all joined together I think it's insight more than I don't like the telling the future I think it's more guidelines and insight and I think that's important to remember as well we do get I'm sure you do as well where people ask you to read for them and they should I do this or that we can't actually tell you that what we can do is provide you with some insight so you can make your own decisions from it flexibility of it yes and we are we are still the decision makers and therefore we have our we have our little bits to do yes all of us so I have a I'm gonna ask you about like what projects you have coming up obviously books you have coming out but I'd like to leave space for is there something that you have found yourself repeating a lot as a piece of advice or thoughts or things that you've just had coming up a lot for yourself that you would like to share with people that could be related to what we've been talking about or could be totally unrelated I there's a couple of things for me one is your intuition it took me a long time to learn to trust my intuition and when I didn't I fell flat on my face uh but it does take experience to learn that and to learn to trust it so that is key for me learning to trust your intuition and connection for me I I think I don't think you can work witchcraft or magic or even divination without being connected to the energy of the cards of the runes the energy of the land that you stand on that we're all connected and that for me wherever I am in my house or in a field somewhere I'm connected to the land so connection and intuition 2 they do take they both take a bit of time experience and patience to learn but for me two very key elements yeah that's very true and important to think about in wherever we are in our path that it will always be there will always be more to do on those things part of the beauty part of the challenge yes so what do you have coming up well the current book writing is actually with my two my team Ness and Heather we are writing a book together about our witchcraft journeys really I think between us we've got about 100 years worth of experience which is scary it's a practical witchcraft book so that's been quite fun to write together that will it's not in for editing yet but it's nearly there nearly there and then I say I'm writing about Roman Britain which is very exciting that's my next my own book to write very often but always on something always doing something do you ever have trouble since you are now also wearing editing hats do you ever have trouble turning your work over to someone else to edit I have trouble finding time to write at the moment that's the biggest problem ha ha ha ha yup yup I understand have I need more hours in the day and days in the week at the moment it really it really would be nice particularly the nice summer and fall hours I would like more of but then I'm in a very wintry climate so that's really beautiful so I I thank you so much for your time and for everything that you are producing and putting out in the world which is which is a beautiful thing and I'll look forward to having all three of you on to talk about that book that will be an interesting conversation we can do like a panel and talk brilliant excellent alright thank you so much thank you