Latest / The History of Greece: Philosophy, Empire, and Endless Reinvention — Fexingo History / Mytilenean Debate: Athens Debates Genocide in 427 BCE
Transcript
- Lucas: So we've talked a lot about the Peloponnesian War from the military side — battles, sieges, generals. But there's one episode that stands out as a moral crisis for Athenian democracy itself. The Mytilenean Debate of 427 BCE. Luna: That's the one where Athens voted to massacre an entire city and then changed its mind? Lucas: Exactly. Mytilene was the main city on the island of Lesbos, and it had been a member of the Delian League — that is, the Athenian Empire — since the Persian Wars. But in 428, Mytilene led a revolt. The whole island joined them, except for a town called Methymna. Athens sent a fleet, besieged Mytilene, and after a long siege the city surrendered in 427. Luna: So what was the punishment? Lucas: That was the question. The Athenian commander Paches sent the ringleaders — about 2,000 men — to Athens, and he kept the rest of the population under guard pending a decision. So the Athenian Assembly met. And the leading voice was Cleon — the same Cleon we talked about before, the demagogue, the tanner. He argued that Mytilene had to be punished severely to deter further revolts. His proposal: execute every adult male in Mytilene and enslave all the women and children. Luna: Total annihilation. That's horrific. Lucas: And the Assembly, whipped up by Cleon, voted for it. They dispatched a trireme with the order to Paches. But then — and this is where it gets fascinating — almost immediately, many Athenians had second thoughts. They felt that the decision was 'savage and unprecedented,' as Thucydides puts it. So a second assembly was called the next day to reconsider. Luna: Wait, they called another assembly the very next day? Lucas: Yes, and that was unusual. Normally the Assembly met about once a month, but this was an emergency. So the debate reopened, and this time Cleon spoke again, doubling down. But he was opposed by a man named Diodotus — someone who appears nowhere else in history, as far as we know. Thucydides gives him one speech, and then he vanishes. Diodotus argued against the massacre, but not on humanitarian grounds. He said it was simply bad policy. Luna: Interesting. So he used pragmatism, not morality. Lucas: Exactly. Diodotus said that executing everyone would be counterproductive: future revolts would fight to the death rather than surrender, because they'd have nothing to lose. Better to show mercy, let them surrender, and collect tribute. He also argued that collective punishment was unjust — not because it was cruel, but because it would alienate the common people in allied cities, who were generally pro-Athenian. The debate was close, but Diodotus won. By a narrow margin, the Assembly voted to spare the population of Mytilene and only execute the ringleaders. Luna: So they sent a second trireme with the new order. Did it arrive in time? Lucas: This is the dramatic part. The first trireme had a day's head start. The second trireme had to row harder — and the crews were told they'd get bonuses if they made it in time. They rowed day and night, eating and sleeping at the oars. Thucydides says they arrived just as Paches was about to carry out the original order. So about a thousand Mytilenean ringleaders were executed — probably those sent to Athens — but the city itself was spared. Luna: That's such a close call. And all because one man gave a good speech. Lucas: Well, it shows the power of rhetoric in Athenian democracy. But Cleon wasn't finished. He later proposed a decree to punish Mytilene by confiscating their ships and walls, and dividing their land among Athenian colonists. That did pass. So Mytilene was humiliated but not destroyed. Luna: There's something deeply modern about this story. A debate over genocide, a last-minute reprieve, the role of public opinion shifting overnight. Lucas: Absolutely. And Thucydides uses the debate to explore themes that resonate today: the tension between justice and expediency, the danger of demagogues, the wisdom of crowds. He presents both speeches — Cleon's and Diodotus's — as models of rhetorical argument. Cleon appeals to fear and anger: 'Do not be misled by the three most dangerous things — pity, pleasure in eloquence, and leniency.' Diodotus appeals to self-interest: 'The proper punishment for rebellion is not to massacre the rebels, but to make them productive subjects again.' Luna: It's like a case study in political debate. Lucas: It is. And one detail I love: Thucydides has Diodotus say that if you punish a city that surrenders too harshly, no city will ever surrender again — they'll fight to the death. That's a version of the 'slippery slope' argument. Also, Diodotus points out that poverty and desperation drive people to revolt, not just a few troublemakers. That's a surprisingly structural analysis for the 5th century BCE. Luna: So what happened to Mytilene in the end? Lucas: Mytilene was forced to tear down its walls, surrender its navy, and pay a huge indemnity. Athenian cleruchs — settlers — were sent to occupy the land of the executed ringleaders. So it was a harsh punishment, but not total destruction. The incident also had a long-term effect: it set a precedent that Athens could — and did — debate such extreme measures. Later, in 416 BCE, the Melian Dialogue would end with Athens massacring the adult men of Melos and enslaving everyone else, with no second thoughts. Luna: So the Mytilenean Debate was a turning point. It shows Athens at its best and worst. Lucas: Exactly. And Thucydides, by recording it, gives us a window into how democracy can produce both cruelty and mercy — sometimes in the same week. Luna: It's remarkable that we have such a detailed account from over 2,400 years ago. Lucas: You know, speaking of remarkable — it's only possible to dive into these stories because of listeners who support the show. A small group of people chip in monthly through buy me a coffee dot com slash fexingo, and that's what keeps this podcast ad-free and makes it possible for us to spend time on episodes like this. So if you've been enjoying the deep dives, that's the simplest way to help keep them coming. Luna: Yeah, it really makes a difference. And it means we can avoid ads and stay focused on the history. Lucas: Alright, back to the Mytilenean Debate. One more thing I want to mention: the trireme that carried the reprieve was probably the same class of ship that fought at Salamis — but rowed by Athenian citizens, not slaves. The trierarch, the wealthy citizen who funded the ship, would have pushed his crew to the limit. And they made it. Luna: So that trireme became a symbol of mercy, not just war. Lucas: Exactly. And it's a reminder that in Athenian democracy, individual citizens could change the course of history — not just generals and kings, but ordinary men arguing on the Pnyx, or rowing an emergency trireme. Luna: That's a powerful thought to end on.