Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / The Stories We Build So We Don’t Break — Justin Anderson
Transcript
- Chris Stockton: Alright, welcome back to Dispatch Dysfunctional. Today we're joined by Justin Anderson, known creatively as Jay Valoran, who is here to discuss the stories we build so we don't break. Justin is a network engineer by day, dark fantasy author by night, and the founder of the Valorian verse. A world built around giving shape to depression, silence, guilt, grief, and the invisible weight people carry. Which is a fantastic measure. He joined us tonight as a peer, and he's made that very clear. But as a respectful witness who is committed to helping people build a language for the heavy things that us as first responders carry home. So Justin, before we get d started and discuss you know, before we discuss anything else, who are you as a person and why was this an important conversation to have? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): So as a person, I've kinda felt myself being the type of person that I don't judge others because everybody has a story and I've learned, you know, to be the type to kinda examine and see what that story's about. And this kind of been this kind of has become the foundation of the Valoran verse because you never really know what any anyone's carrying. And a lot of people will judge prematurely and they'll make assumptions about ⁓ this person is lazy or ⁓ they're just acting in this person is really carrying an invisible weight that is heavier than anyone actually ever noticed. in just the concept of being able to do something to make that weight a little bit lighter, that that became the kind of the driving force of putting out these different folklore to help other people. Chris Stockton: That's part of my language, but that's fucking awesome. That's that's a lot better answer than I was expecting in all honesty. and I love how you don't judge people. You know, like you said, everyone has their own demons they fight, everyone has their own backgrounds. And just from the way people look, we can't judge them by that. ⁓ hell I actually it was funny. ⁓ about a year or so ago I was J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Appreciate it. Chris Stockton: working offshore and I was in Boston doing a crew change and I met a CEO of a company that looked like a homeless man. And he purposely did that. It it was it was hilarious I don't remember his name, but it was just hilarious. I mean I was drunk as hell. But you know, we we what we bumped into him and I was like, ⁓ man, I'm sorry I didn't mean to knock the stuff out of your arms and he's like, No, no no I got plenty of money for that and he told me he was a CEO of you know some company up there and I'm like, ⁓ okay, that was interesting. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Wow. Yeah. Wow. Chris Stockton: Well, it was it was pretty cool, I mean, you know. So it it really did, and I think that's as he described to me, again, I can't remember a hundred percent of what exactly went on 'cause I was a little ⁓ three sheets to the wind. But he did explain to me, you know, that is the reason he does that is is he doesn't want people to know he has money when he's out in public and he doesn't want them to be able to be like, ⁓ well, you have money, just give me some You know J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): It definitely proves the point. Chris Stockton: Dude was really friendly. So J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): And yeah, I mean most people would judge him if he had money as someone to like tiptoe around or to pretty much use in or rob, you know, unfortunately. But that just shows you like a lot of times we'll judge someone by how they look or the rumors we heard or maybe even how they talk, you know, different things like that, positions they hold. And we don't ever really get to know them. And from that, you know, you could be the one thing that keeps that person from going home feeling like the whole world's against them and you join in just because you judge them before you actually give a chance to talk to ⁓ Chris Stockton: Yes or. And that actually brings me this right here. So you wrote that turning depression into mythology was a survival mode before it was a project. You know, that line is this whole episode here pretty much. ⁓ 'cause a lot of people think stories are just entertainment, you know, ⁓ sometimes the stories are how people survive. It's the way we explain it when we cannot properly explain it in words to be able to get it out of our mouths. You know, sometimes the pain doesn't come out as a diagnosis, i it's sometimes a character. ⁓ Hell, a monster, a a a wall, a shadow, you know, a piece of folklore as you write. ⁓ some artists they write songs about it, you know. ⁓ it it's always that there's parts of stories that people don't remember or or don't understand. And for first responders that matters a hundred percent. 'cause a lot of us don't say I have anxiety. They just we just say I'm carrying something no one else sees or I'm fine, I'm okay. ⁓ So so let's just start here. ⁓ when did you realize that your stories were actually helping you and not just creating work? It was more of a survival for you? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): ⁓ so it was kind of a interesting start. ⁓ you know, I I have, you know, some childhood trauma. I I grew up ⁓ like one of two minorities in my neighborhood. and that led to a situation of I I didn't you know, a lot of people say, ⁓ you have the choice to walk away from fighting or choice to be violent. or you choose to be violent or not. ⁓ but my option was to come home beat up, clothes ripped every day, or to fight back. so from a early age I kinda learnt what it was like to be judged. I learnt what it was like to be disliked, ⁓ just because of existing really. And one thing I didn't realize that I did for all these years was I normalized that. I I just thought that was how life was. You know, it's like, well, y you go through something and you just like, well, that's just how my life was. It's you know, whatever. And I I moved on. my tenth grade year of high school, my grandmother was diagnosed with stage four ⁓ colon cancer. ⁓ She was the first real death I've experienced. I had other family members die, but it wasn't like the ones that you spend time with every day. ⁓ the first person that hold me was her. So that was my first real experience. Yep. My first real experience with death and I didn't realize that I was dealing with depression at the time. ⁓ Chris Stockton: Damn, I'm sorry. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): you know, as males, we were especially the older generation, we're told, you know, you don't be vulnerable, you don't cry, you don't share your feelings. You know, you i it's it's unmanly to cry or to show those emotions. So just be tough. And I can remember I was angry. I was so angry all the time during that time in I I did kinda it subsided after she passed, but it was something that I didn't realize I was carrying, you know, so fast forward. you know, I'm a grown man, I got a family of my own and it's like I'm looking at a way to make some extra income. Figure I'll do I've always been good at writing, so I'll do a, you know, four friends, four swords, defeat the demon lord type story, and, you know, maybe hopefully bring in some extra income. And I started writing and all of a sudden, you know, my characters slowly became these really in depth characters with you know their own struggles, own mental illnesses, things that I really wasn't planning for them to have. You know, one of my characters has survivor guilt, one of them have PTSD, child abandonment issues. And I started kind of noticing that and as I started really sitting back, I started realizing in some ways, you know, the weight of my life became a little bit lighter, but it also became very apparent that these things I fouled away, you know, childhood trauma, you know, dealing with my grandmother's passing that I just kind of tucked away, I didn't deal with, were still there. And that they came back with a vengeance. And it it it spiraled me for a little bit. Chris Stockton: Ha ha. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): But as I understood what I was writing and how to take those emotions and kind of mold them into something that I could externalize, put outside of me, it really began to take shape in, you know, this whole world I I ended up building, you know, this is how the memorial wall where people can honor their loved ones came about. ⁓ these dark thoughts that I have when I spiral ⁓ was the grounds for creating Whisper the Veil where people can go and release negative thoughts. And you know, it doesn't come back and say, no, it's gonna be sunshine and rainbows. It's just you release it and then you can see other people's negative thoughts. And a lot of people may be like, well, that doesn't sound good, but it shows you you're not alone. A lot of times when we're dealing with negativity and negative thoughts, we feel like we're the only ones dealing with it. And to know that, yeah, my life is screwed up right now, but you know, I'm not alone in this. There are other people struggling. It it kind of brings you back to grounding and Chris Stockton: And I think a lot of people need to hear that right there. But like you just said, you know, w none of us are truly alone in this. and I didn't mean to interrupt you on that one, but ⁓ y you know, i that's that's the biggest thing. ⁓ a lot of us when we get into those dwelling moments of depression or, you know, PTSD anxiety or what have you, we do feel like we're alone. But as you just stated, you're not. And and J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Yep. Chris Stockton: You know, I've lost quite a few friends to depression and PGSD, but the the reaching out to someone is the biggest thing once you realize that you're not alone. There are others struggling. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): And I agree. And you know, my condolences on that. And a lot of us don't we don't see that. you know, my mentor who kind of been who's been mentoring me through like the concept of building this into a business so I'm not you know, it's structured in a way that's digestible by people. ⁓ Natasha, you know, she mentioned And she came up with the concept that, you know, we all kind of walk in parallel and we don't realize it. You know, I'm struggling and you struggling, but we're looking straight ahead and we don't realize that there's someone right next to us that's going through similar things or the same things we're going through. ⁓ so it's sometimes one of those type of things of just looking beside you instead of ahead or looking down. And you know, like you said, you have help, you can speak to someone else about it. Chris Stockton: Yeah, and I I think a lot of it is like you said a minute ago, is the older generations, you know, even when I was a kid, ⁓ it was always looked looked down upon to speak your feelings or, you know, show emotions. It was you shut your fuck up shut the fuck up, get it done, don't wanna hear it. And in the field I work in, that's a lot of the older generation's mentality is you suck it up or you go home. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Yeah. Chris Stockton: And it sucks. But I do understand the mentality behind it because as a healthcare provider or a police officer or what have you as a first responder, if you're having mental issues and you tell your supervisors or your leadership, they're gonna end up benching you. That's probably what's gonna happen. Because you're not able to provide the the services you need to provide. And that's what sucks about it. But you know, at the same time, what's better? Getting help for yourself. and being able to treat people later or trying to bury it all down and having it come to a head at the end. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): And that's one of the biggest things that I've started to learn ⁓ about, you know, your world. ⁓ you know, being a network engineer and someone outside of it, ⁓ I've looked at and thought about, ⁓ this would be a really cool project to do, you know, I would wanna talk to a first responder, a firefighter. And as I've kind of explored learning about, you know, your world, I realized, man, I gotta be careful because if you mention, you know, even if it is like trying to assist people with their mental health, but you mention, ⁓ well, you know, I've had depression or I've experienced this, you know, this could be a ⁓ blow to your livelihood. This could cost you your job because of the fact that you mention you know, you are struggling with some kind of mental health ⁓ crisis and it's become a real eye opener on how in some occupations you don't get that ability to speak on, you know, things that are, you know, haunting you or things that are really bothering you, while in other occupations it's very open and encouraged. Chris Stockton: Right. And I hate to say it, but it is a double edged sword. and you know, that's the reason I started my podcast. I is for first responders to have an outlet, for people to understand, you know, I've been through it, I've admitted these supervisors. Hell I even quit a job, a very well paying job, because of my mental anguish in the end. You know, I J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Yeah. Chris Stockton: I've spoken about it on an episode before. I had a friend of mine on board a ship, kill himself, and now every time after that I went to open a door, the the visual images would always pop back. You know, so I left working offshore to come back onshore for my own mental safety and mental health. Do I think I could go back offshore now? Probably. But, you know, it just takes time to get over it. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): I agree with that. And, you know, those are the toughest things where you're dealing with that. And like you said, there's so many different layers to it. you know, are you still looking to help someone else? You know, I know that I can help someone else, so I don't wanna focus on myself too much in you know, dealing with those types of struggles and then also just how society views first responders. You know, with all the TV shows, your job on TV looks exciting. It looks amazing. You're you're going to all these house calls and you're saving everyone and they don't show, you know, the toll it takes in a lot of ⁓ I have a co-worker who was a volunteer firefighter and a volunteer EMT. ⁓ and even in my thirties I didn't realize a lot of stuff that you see on TV isn't it doesn't play out that way. Like when he was telling me about CPR and chest compressions, I truly thought it was like TV where you do the chest compressions. It's like one, two, three, okay, they wake up, they pop up, everything's good. And he's like, ⁓ no, you're breaking ribs. He's like, You're breaking ribs, you're hearing, you know the cracking and the sounds, he's like, and they're not waking up popping up. He's like, they're out of it. And I'm like, Are you serious? He's Yes, think about how hard you would have to push to compress somebody heart. And when I started thinking about it, it was like, ⁓ damn, I'm dumb. But when it when you see it on T V it it looks so different. And just thinking about for you as a person, you know, if you're giving C PR to someone in you're breaking ribs, you know, that that's that's graphic, that's vivid. That's something that you have to either get used to or a ⁓ adapt to or it does become, you know, it could scare you, you wouldn't be able to perform your job correctly. Chris Stockton: Yeah, and that's you know, that's one reason a lot of us have such dark humor. That's why a lot of us become numb to normal situations with death or normal situations with illnesses, is because of our job. We we can't ⁓ properly cope if we don't try to cope in our own mental ways. ⁓ and that does it does get a little shaky sometimes. You know, don't get me wrong, but ⁓ it works for us. and it kinda brings me to this next point that I got written down here is ⁓ you said depression doesn't always look like crying. Sometimes it looks like music going quiet. The book is still going and the things that used to keep you alive loses their color one by one. And that pretty much summed up what you just said, too. I is everything you know, i y y you do get depressed after certain calls, ⁓ after I it don't even have to be a call. ⁓ but you know ⁓ for and it it's it's huge to me. I I don't know about a lot of my listeners, but I know for me it's huge to have someone on the outside like yourself being able to support us the way you do. So, you know, and that on that note is what what When you said that, how does it look like to you whenever, you know, your music starts going quiet, your books are still going and and the things are just losing their color one by one? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): For me, it it it's a real struggle. you know, like I said, I I've been able to write pretty easily, whether it was stories, reports, poetry. the first time I experienced the, you know, everything starting to dull out and go quiet was during the time my grandmother was, you know, passing. She wasn't dead, but watching the first I experienced the, you know, starting dull out go quiet was during the time my grandmother was, you know, passing. She wasn't dead, but watching you know, someone slowly died from cancer, i it's a different type of death. actually ended up with a folklore about it, in ⁓ you ⁓ concept is it's when you're ⁓ mourning someone still you're mourning ⁓ everything that w come to be. you know, someone slowly died from cancer, i it's a different type of death. I actually ended up with a folklore about it, you know, in you know, the concept is it it's when you're mourning someone still alive, you're mourning everything that w won't come to be. Chris Stockton: ⁓ wow. wow. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): But there's no funeral, there's no one asking you if you're okay, there's no one really paying attention But there's no funeral, there's no one asking you if you're okay, there's no one really paying attention because they look at it like, well, that person is still alive and breathing. But, you know, you're watching this person and this honestly goes for depression and anything. You're watching this person go from that vibrant, you know, happy person or however they were, even if they were honory and attitude to this person that's a shell of themselves, and that's hard. And you realize that all the things that you imagine in the future you won't get to see. That person won't be that person that you knew ever again. And when I was realizing that I I felt it hard. The words wouldn't come out. The it was like just watching my life drain in learning how to force myself to cope with it in different ways. You know, I started sleeping a lot more. Like I said, I didn't realize it was depression in, but you know, I sort of just I'd rather sleep in My grandmother, you know, when she would be in pain, you know, she was we would give her morphine at that point. And, you know, it takes time for stuff to kick in. So we're still hearing me and my sister will hear her crying out in pain and all we could do was try to turn the TV up to drown her out. And it hurt. And you know, everything around me became s just less important. It was like Whenever I woke up, I I felt sick. It was like just the worst feeling ever. In you know, not being able to write, not being able to get my emotions out that way. everything started to come out in anger, in again being told that, you know, I'm not supposed to cry. I found out any time I felt like crying, I felt like being vulnerable, I would immediately get mad. It would just it was almost like a defense mechanism. And it that that whole feeling of just seeing the world in this bleak way became my norm for a while. It i it is. It was it was terrible. Chris Stockton: And I'm guessing that's that's how you turned your depression into mythology, is is a survival mode and a defensive mode. and that's how it came out, I guess. It wasn't a marketing scheme, it was it was something that you actually felt and y in your heart a and you wrote it, you know. And there is a difference between the cool dark fantasy world and building a language for pain that you just can't explain. and I I really do want to read what you a couple of your books. I'm gonna end up buying a few. ⁓ but so why w why did the mythology give you that ordinary language that you just couldn't be able to speak out? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): I think the mythology what it really did is that it allowed me to kind of distance myself from the pain in a different way. ⁓ it it allowed me to almost like rename it. and that was one thing at the time I realized I wasn't ready for therapy and I didn't find therapy to be a solution because the W the way that I would describe it is when you go to therapy, ⁓ you d in some therapist office it's almost like learning a different language. You know, you go to therapy, it goes from I have something I don't know how to talk about to, ⁓ you have clinical depression, you have Cognitive behavioral, you know, such and such. You have catastrophization. It's like there's all these names. It's like, wait, I got what? And it it's learning a different language. And the problem is, ⁓ in my opinion, is that language comes with stigmas already. It comes with judgment. And so it you don't really want to use something that Before you even speak it to someone, you already know it's going to change their opinion of you. It's like, ⁓ I have depression. ⁓ mental illness. Okay, so as soon as I go and tell someone, ⁓ well, yeah, I have mental illness, complete conversation change. You're like, you know, some are concerned depending on what you're gonna follow up with, some are feeling pity for you, some are assuming that you're not gonna be able to function cognitively like nor what they would consider normal people to be, there's all these negativity. ⁓ and I think that's what you know the mythology allowed me to do was to voice how I was feeling in a manner that instead of having a stigma attached to it, people gravitate towards it. Poetry In music, when you think about the lyrics, sometimes if you listen to a song and you listen to those lyrics, you're like, Man, they said some stuff. Or you read a poem, you're like, that was deep. But the way that it's described, the wording that's used, or the melody that's used, makes it like you want to sing along with it. You want to be able to repeat it. You want to quote this in being able to speak about my depression, my grief and trauma in this way, it it really helped, you know, instead of saying, you know, I have depression, saying that, you know, I feel hollow or, you know, my thread is ⁓ turning hollow. You know, in my world the thread is your soul. So being able to say that my thread is turning hollow or describe it as a color, you know, this dark violent, you know, it's almost beautiful, but it still is damaging and harmful, made it so much easier to build this language around it that could be used to basically become this like codex of how I'm feeling as opposed to being able to directly say w you know, those words that are associated with the negativity. Chris Stockton: That's awesome. I I there's no way in hell I could ever be able to do that. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Yeah. Chris Stockton: you know, like you said, to be able to verbalize it the way you did, even like it's like you said, the thread becoming hollow. I I would have never thought of something like that. That's that's just artism at its best, you know, that's that that's that's you being an author even when you don't want to be an author, you know? and I guess that's that's your metaphors in the end on how you describe your your feelings and and that's that's amazing. ⁓ J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): I agree. Chris Stockton: So I guess when you create characters, do you use the feelings that you're feeling when you're writing or does it just how how does that work? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): When creating characters, ⁓ in this this kind of was one of the areas that kind of brought me through in writing. it it was a rough spot for me. It it also it made me understand I really needed to assess my personal life differently because I started writing, I felt myself improving, getting better, everything was like okay, I'm getting these emotions out. ⁓ But I didn't know the writing world was so cruel. Like, man, it is toxic. And if they cannot fit you into a box, it becomes a problem. ⁓ so there's different forms of writing. You know, they call ⁓ plotters, people who plan, you know, they plan every scene, every piece. ⁓ there's people who they call panthers who have a general idea, but You know, they just kinda know at the end of this I want the world to blow up and somebody to reverse time. You know, they don't really know how everything goes to get to that point, but they at least kinda know the end point. ⁓ I find myself closer to the second one, but I I I didn't know the language of writing, ⁓ in all honesty. Like I said, I've been writing for over twenty years, but I never learnt the actual wording to communicate like, ⁓ this is pros, this is purple prose, this is this. I just did it. ⁓ so when I was asked those questions, trying to explain how I write was really hard and it became a source of tension in these communities. ⁓ now that I've been doing it a little bit I consider my writing closer to like method acting, ⁓ where you've heard about like actors who get so immersed in their characters where they mentally become that character. ⁓ they live as that character for a period of time. And some of ⁓ have to go to therapy and have to honestly go through like a whole detox of some sort to break their self mentally from being that person because they get so immersed in it. ⁓ that's how I write my characters. I I I more compare it to watching a movie. Like I'm watching that character from inside and then when I step back to put it onto the page, I'm reporting it So it's like living that character's life at the time. And that that gets rough because I'm also living the trauma that the characters are going through. And when I step back into the author seat, I find myself sometimes getting depressed, getting wrapped up to the point where it is mentally, you know, harmful for me. I have to ⁓ step back. And I had to really sit down and talk with my wife and explain there's gonna be times, you know, I realize now and there's gonna be times when I'm writing that I may get done and I may just want to, you know, be around you. I may not really talk to you at the moment, but I still would just wanna be around you, being your presence, you know. Please don't push, you know, because a lot of times and you know, males will close off when you start pushing. It's gotta be like, let us let me open up. But I had to kind of give her that conversation because I realized that I would break sometimes if I went too long and I I would start to get real depressed and I don't know you know, the clinical term for I I call it like passive suicidal thoughts where you're not actively seeking to harm yourself, but you're okay if something happened. You know, if you're driving and you see a semi, you're like, ⁓ yeah, if it just swerved in my lane, I'd be okay with that. And I was like, okay, this writing is helpful, but I have to now put guardrails around it to protect myself. So i it Yep, go ahead. Chris Stockton: So how do you How do you notice yourself going into one of these modes, I guess? Like say you you just you just finished riding and you all you you went driving and then you notice that you did feel that way, like the truck coming into your lane would be okay. How do you notice that yourself or does your wife notice it before you notice it? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): tend to notice it. ⁓ living with, you know, my depression for let's see, I'm what, thirty five? So about 15, 16 years, I've kind of started to notice my patterns. it it's kind of a almost like a level. Like, you know, I kinda feel down. I I'm hard on myself, you know, more than usual. It's like, okay, you know, that one's still kinda iffy. That could be just me being frustrated without the results of something. The next stage for me is typically I'm starting to feel down. And now I'm starting to kind of lose interest in something. Like, you know, I was really into playing this video game or watching this show. Now I'm just kind of like, ⁓ I'd rather just lay here. And then for me, the next stage is like, now I just want to sleep. And I still interact with the people I love and I care about. You know, like if my son comes in there and he's like, Dad. you know, I interact with him, but I I slowly find myself kind of wanting not so much for him to go away, but I really daddy don't feel like playing right now. You know, daddy's tired. And, you know, that's kind of typically my step before I start getting into that passive suicidal thought, you know, stage. And once I'm in that stage, ⁓ my thinking starts to get a little warp and you know that's getting towards the most dangerous points because I know my wife loves me, I know my kids love me, but once I hit that stage, you know, there's for me, I feel there's like two levels below. There's where now I'm thinking irrationally. I'm not making the actual plan, but I'm thinking that it would not be a bad thing if, you know, I was to go through with it. And then the last stage is of course actively making a plan in my mind. And a lot of people don't understand with depression that your thinking starts to warp. ⁓ me and my wife, we had a real deep conversation about it because I'm ⁓ in my mind I've only been that bad a couple times since me and her been together. ⁓ but in my mind, I'm like, well, they'll be fine. They'll get my life support and with my life insurance, you know. So they won't care. and sitting here with you now, I know that it would break my wife's heart. It would break my kids' heart, you know, for me to do that. But In that moment, it it doesn't really seem like it they would care that much. I I felt myself when I get to that point, I basically tie myself to singly being a provider. And my children and my wife only need me to provide. So even if I go through with it. That life insurance provides, so they'll be happy with that. And that's not the truth, but in those times it feels so, so true. It feels like I figured everything out, everything is okay, nobody's going to care. And my role as a provider is solved. So what reason do I have not to do it now? And for people who've never experienced depression, they can't understand how you could assume, you know, your children or loved ones could not care about you. And it's really hard to get them to understand. And I don't think my wife honestly understands, but I do think that she accepts as what I'm explaining to her is the truth on how I feel. Chris Stockton: That makes sense. And the sad thing is like you said, i if you haven't felt it, you won't be able to understand it. and I've been there. ⁓ so I understand a hundred percent on that. And it does help me in the end of my job as well to help provide to people that are telling me, Hey, I'm in this dark place, I don't know what to do, I you know, I do want to end it a and Of course that's not the answer at all, ever. But when you're in that zone and you're in that mode mindset, it don't matter what anyone tells you, it don't matter what anyone does. You want that ultimate goal to be that goal. And until someone can break that thought train or that thought process, it's not gonna happen. And you know, i as you wrote on your on your form here is you mentioned, you know, a cloaked figure is your intrusive thoughts. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): True. Chris Stockton: Your hollow mark is your just a severe depression, your wall of scars is for your generational sacrifice. And that's how you help these images become a parallel vocabulary in the end, in my opinion. You know, correct me if I'm wrong on that, but is that also what helps you in the end as so on this side of things here is y you're an author and I know a lot of people that work in my realm that they like to write poems, they like to write short stories, ⁓ write music or or play guitar or whatever. is this something that helps you when you're doing your work? Is it something that would help you or does help you if you're feeling it to be able to get the right vocabulary out? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): It does. It it it really does because I think the reason why it helps so much is because it allows me to bridge ⁓ the gap that we were just talking about in cases. you know, when I'm tell telling my wife, you know, I don't feel like you love me and I don't feel like our kids love me, they just want me to provide. Immediately I've said some things within that conversation. Number one, that would be offensive, not meaning to, you're you're trying to really skip help, but once you start saying things that people find offensive or they can't understand on a logical level, the conversation starts to die. So now, you know, she's mad, I'm depressed, and it's a bad conversation. You know, but being able to explain with poetry or with you know the words in my world, I can just give her this. I can be like, hey, I wrote this new piece and, you know, she sits with it and she reads it. Or ⁓ some of ⁓ I have voice she listens to it and she's like, ⁓ are you okay? She she understands because it conveys that weight. She may not understand, you know, the terminology fully in my world, but she can feel that weight. And that's the part that I think helps a lot of people. And I I I think for people who do experience, you know, these negative thoughts and depression and, you know, other types of thoughts that have this weight, being able to find a way to just show the weight of it is important. And for me, this is where I started writing folklore, not just kind of for myself for for other occupation and other people who have this invisible weight. ⁓ I I kinda learned as I been managing myself, I I do a really good job at being like a vessel. in listening to what people say, my mind wants to build what I would I would honestly liken it to like a shelter, something that can help protect from that like weight, that depression, because it's like I've been there. And so even as me and you talk and you're telling me stuff, in my mind it's like I can see you know, folklore or words or quotes forming from that. And that's what started me building these other folklore in different ways, you know, from, you know, Burning Guilt, which ⁓ you know, touches on firefighters, ⁓ survival guilt, you know. Tears of a caretaker would touch on the fact of being a caretaker taking care of someone who ⁓ you know is losing their memories and things like that, the weight of that. And it's been I've been able to kind of express externally or externalize emotions that others are feeling to allow them to kind of show other people in a way like, ⁓ have you read this? And then they kinda com you know, people compare it, ⁓ that's that's your job. That's what you do, right? Have you ever dealt with something like that? And it opens that door that typically is closed, whether it's because you're uncomfortable talking about it openly, you you're sometimes you're okay if people ask, but going and saying I need help or bringing up the conversation yourself is It's harder to do than if somebody comes to you and or and opens that door for you. Chris Stockton: Right. And that you kinda bring me to my next point here is i is something that really caught my eye on the forum that I asked v everybody to fill out is you wrote something very clear a and I respect it a hundred percent. ⁓ you wrote you're not a first responder. You're not trying to pretend that you've worked on the truck, the engine, the patrol car, the dispatch console or trauma bay. You said you are a witness, not a peer. And that honestly matters because first responders, you know, we do smell the fakes. and you know, so I I guess let's land the honest tangent here is how do you write for us as first responders without pretending to be one, like you were just saying, you know, you you do write certain ways and and you have mechanisms that you use. So how how do you go about going from your perspective to our perspective and writing about it in the end, I guess? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Yeah. Think the the I believe the biggest thing to do is to really watch and observe. I I think for most of the time people we jump to conclusions or we want to talk, we want to fix. And that's not always what the other size needs. Sometimes you just need to be witness, you need to be observed. And I think that's where the biggest difference comes. ⁓ so the the piece I talked about earlier, Burning Guilt, I know it relates to firefighters, but the story came from me observing a civilian doing what first responders do. it it was from a real life story of a Alabama ⁓ a person in Alabama They were in a apartment complex and it caught fire and you know, this person saved ⁓ twelve people by himself, you know, knocking on doors, pulling people out, and he was telling the story to the news, you know, and unfortunately there was three people he couldn't get to. And if you were to watch and listen to the story, everyone in the vicinity was focusing on how many he got out. ⁓ you're a hero, you got this many out. And I don't feel he realized he was saying it or doing it. If you really were to look at his facial expression, but he was stuck on those three he couldn't save. And he would tell you, Yep, Chris Stockton: That's how that's how we That's exactly how we think because I I hate to say it. ⁓ I'm again not trying to interrupt you. I'm I apologize for interrupting you so much, but ⁓ th that to me I've I remember a fire specifically ⁓ to where we got the mom, the dad, the brother, the sister out of a three year old. I hate to say it, it sounds very cynical of me, but it sucks that the three-year-old is the one that got to die. You know, he after the fire was out, we've wound up finding him buried underneath the dresser, ⁓ with claw marks on the dresser because he tried to escape. And it stuck with me knowing that we lost one. I'm very happy we saved the others. Don't get me wrong on that. But J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Yep. Chris Stockton: as you were saying, i it it's those three that stuck with that guy who got fourteen out. You know, i and it sucks. But you know J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Exactly. And then everyone focuses on who you did save. And it's like inside, you know, that makes that feel heavier because it's like I know how many I did, but this is the number I didn't. And that is like I said, I've never been in that situation, but observing, really, really watching. Chris Stockton: Exactly. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): and listening, you can pick up on where the pain points are. and in that interview, that was what I was picking up from him because he was like, you know, he's telling this reporter, he's like, you know, I had to go pull him out and people are trying to go back in to get their phones, which also tells me, you know, what kind of the difficulty in your job, what people care about. ⁓ You know, people trying to go in and get their phones and he was like, But man, I couldn't save these three. And they're like, Yeah, but you got, you know, twelve, fourteen out. He was like, Yeah, you know, and I did all I could do, but if I had a s if I had a better jacket, I would have saved those three. And then it kept going on and then, man, I'm telling you, if I had a better jacket, I would have saved those three. And in this conversation, nobody's acknowledged really that he was focused on those three and they didn't really, you know, it's just all about who he did save. And it's like, but in this moment, whether he knows it or not, he's telling you where his mind is. And a lot of people don't listen. And I feel like this is where, you know, when I write folklore And I'm hearing someone talk, you pay attention and you look at that body language, you look at the shift in the eyes. as you know, when when you're starting to reflect on something, your eyes kind of look off in the distance. You listen to the weight of the words on how they say it. You know, i if you're telling me you got that A plus, and I'm like, Yeah, but I missed that one question. Okay, I'm I'm letting you know with the weight of that words that that one question means more to me than what I just did. I I'm not caring about that A plus. I'm mad or I'm disappointed or sad or there's some emotion tied to me missing that one question, whether it's you know, trauma, whether it's you know, I'ma get in trouble, but there's something that's important within that. that small little beat right there that, you know, you keep overlooking. And I think that's where for me, the way that I approach it, and I've taken the time to really start to reach out to people within these communities to understand what it feels like. You know, I wouldn't be able to feel it, but to understand when you talk about something in how to take that pain and give it form and then present it back to you like okay does this does this feel right to you? Does this feel like what you would want people to understand about how you view or handle this, you know, because that's heavy. Even if what you said you know, when people are congratulating you or if people are saying, you know, you did such a good job, you're looking at this family now and you're looking at their pain. Everyone else around you is like, ⁓ well, you did such a great but you're like, Well damn, look what they're going through. Their their family's broken. This person's and like you said, that image that you just told me about the claw marks that that's you know That's something that you can't unsee in what ifs are haunting. Chris Stockton: Well and so on that note too is the other thing that gets to be on that. ⁓ that exact call actually is ⁓ so we get there and the mom's outside, she's grow she's trying to grab the kids as fast as she can doing, you know, her mom duties and doing what she can. And she gets that first kid out. We try to go back in with the gear on, the fire's too hot. It goes through the gear. next thing we know, we try to explain to mom, Hey, look, we can't get to him. We know he's in this bedroom, but we can't get to him. As soon as we said that, she breaks free of us 'cause we're trying to take care of her. She breaks free and tries to run in that house. So she gets third degree burns on her arms. and that was one of the hardest things in my life that I've had to do is pull a mom away from the house trying to save her baby. You know. i it again, like you said, yeah, it sucks. and it's something that I won't ever get out of my head. And that's one reason I'm glad I get to talk to someone like you today is you know, you are able to orchestrate a and properly verbalize the ways that we feel in in to ways that everyone else can understand. you know, and you just do any research you have on your buddy that's a a a former EMT volunteer, I'm sure that helps you understand some of our stuff as well. y you know, and and and and it and the pain is real, of course. ⁓ all trauma is real. and the knowing of what's what is actually wrong in us and and having the words to say it. I you asked to go s to push a little on this ⁓ part a little bit as well, but ⁓ i it's huge for the audience because the the trauma and the depression they're not always loud out they're not always out loud. sometimes the calls we go on can be ten minutes. Sometimes it'll be a few hours. But the pain lasts god knows how long. and you understand that. ⁓ the better question is, how how do you understand about it so much as it is a slow progress in the end, I guess you you could say. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): ⁓ you know, number one dealing with, you know, grief and depression myself and knowing I'm still processing it, even though I I've learnt how to shape it and externalize it more, you know, it it's still a up and down. And you know, there's a few things within that made me honestly really start to do writing was I really hated the depiction, whether it's in novels, TV shows, movies of mental health number one. I hated that. ⁓ I I love the movie taken. It was I I did love some of the lines in there, but I hated how they showed mental health. You know, his daughter got kidnapped well she got kidnapped twice. ⁓ Almost sold into sex trafficking, was put on drugs, you know, all of this stuff. And at the end of taking one, she just fine. She's smiling. You know, they had that little image of her smiling at dad and waving. And it's like, that's not that's not how this works. You exactly. You know, you're not gonna just be okay. And and grant you, you could say they time skipped, you could say whatever, but if you're gonna have someone go through something traumatic. Chris Stockton: Rolling. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): And that's the plot point of the movie and stuff. At least show them kinda having some up and down moments. Let people know that when you see someone go through something traumatic, it it's not that they just magically get fixed in because that makes other people feel broken. I felt broken before because it's like Well, this person went through some dramatic stuff. They lost someone they love and look at them, they're smiling in this, you know, T V show or this book or even, you know, during mental health awareness month, a lot of mental health companies will step into that where it's like ⁓ I know you're struggling, but the world's better with you in it. Well, when I'm depressed, like really depressed, miss me with that shit. You know, excuse my language. I I I don't wanna hear you know, I don't wanna hear the world is better with me in it because that's that's not gonna reach me. and so this made me really take, you know, trying to give a real perspective on it ⁓ seriously, because Chris Stockton: ⁓ you're good. Yeah. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): It it allows for people to understand that, you know, when you're reading something that's heavy, it's not always like you were just saying, a happy ending. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be told because you you're masking things that need to be said. And you know Chris Stockton: Yeah. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): It it's hard to explain in certain cases how my mind works. Like I said, I just naturally do this and sometimes I can't put it in the word, but listening you talk about that call, you know, in my world, ⁓ you know, there's different energy. So there's lumen, which, you know, as children you have it's, you know, just a pure energy. And then as you you know, get older, it turns to Lucent, which you're you basically are capable of wielding then. ⁓ so without going super deep. But when I'm listening to you talk, you know, since you gave the age of that child, in my mind that the the concept that I would think of to like externalize kind of what you were saying would be like a folklore called the Lumen on a dresser. And you know, instead of saying that real deep visual of claw marks, you know, I would use in my world, you know, the concept of, you know, losing someone, but you know, the mother seeing that residual looming or that energy of, you know, a young child would be the way that I would word it in titles together. In I think again, you know, sometimes being able just to say things in a different manner allows it to become approachable because this conversation me and you're having, I'm aware that if you said it to certain mothers, certain males, you know, other people, this isn't a conversation some people would be able to stay in. They'll be like, they'll make smile awkwardly or crack some kind of weird joke or I gotta go. And so now you're you will start to feel like, okay, I can't talk about this because it makes other people uncomfortable. So what do you do in that case? Well, you suppress it, you put it to the side, you cope with it in unhealthy manners because you've learned from other people not being willing to or not being capable of you know, just listening or witnessing that pain that you don't have an outlet for it, you know, outside of your grouping, you know, you can talk to other first responders about it because they dealt with it or they know people who dealt with it, but you know, that doesn't help other people understand you in a way that allows you to, you know, decompressed unless you're at work with these people. And I do apologize 'cause I was explaining all this. Now I forgot the rule of the question. But you know Chris Stockton: ⁓ man, you're good. I'm sure you answered it. Actually you answered it a a a few times now. But ⁓ so just ⁓ couple more real quick. So I want you to picture something real quick for me. I want you to picture someone listening to this alone. Maybe they're a medic who hadn't slept all night due to a call. Maybe they're a firefighter who family thinks they're fine. Maybe they're a dispatcher carrying voices home, which matters back to y'all 'cause I couldn't do that shit. ⁓ maybe they're a spouse who knows something is wrong but they can't get the person to love they love to say it. Maybe they're just someone who has known for years that something is wrong, but has never had the words to say it. If that person is listening tonight or today and and the silence feels heavier than language, what do they need to hear from you today? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): You know, the first thing I would say is ⁓ number one, and this part may sound a slight cliche, but number one, you're not broken because I think it's easy to feel like you are. ⁓ like I said, I I felt that way. I know other people who feel that way. and once you start feeling that way is when you start I feel down, you know, the other paths of okay, well I'm already messed up, so what ha what matters if I, you know, break more or you know, something negative more happens. But the other portion would be, you know, if you're listening and you need to hear something, you know, It's the fact that even if you don't have words for it, there's words for what you're feeling. And there's someone who could take that and help you mold that into something that's you're able to I don't wanna say deal with because you know, it it's it's a everyday thing, but help you mold that in a way that you can see it. So it's not just stuck internally inside of you and you're just kind of replaying that and stuck in that loop. I I think that's the most important, you know, the important piece is if whether it's writing, whether it's singing, drawing, whether it's having someone else build that externalization for you. Getting those thoughts out in a way where you can see it and it's not internal, I think is a big help. And then if you're capable and you find either someone or you're able to do it yourself of getting those thoughts out on paper in some kind of way or getting those where other people can interact with it, I think that starts the process of being able to Bridge that misunderstanding. ⁓ because like I said, it's not always what you say or the wording, it's just the weight behind what is said that I think help others realize, okay, I don't need to understand this fully, but I just know that because of the weight behind it, that this means something to you, and I need to be present for you. Chris Stockton: Well said. So Justin, ⁓ if people want to find more find more ⁓ can't speak. If one people want to find more about you or the Learn Mort verse, ⁓ burning guilt, learn more about the spoken word campaign or connect with you and what you're building, where could they find out about that? J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): ⁓ so I'm on every social media at J Valorne. So that's J V A E L O R I N. And ⁓ they can also of course find me and find all my work in you know ⁓ memorial like I said, the Whisperer of the Vale, the memorial memorial wall, ⁓ Chris Stockton: It rubs off on you. J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): you know, yep. The different folklore, and, you know, all my work on ⁓ Valoranverse dot com V A E L O R I N V E R S E dot com. ⁓ I'm also in the process and I think this would be actually a great thing to ask you right now. I you know I would love for to have your opinion on some pieces of ⁓ clothing that I wanna do. ⁓ I started looking at doing clothing for different occupations. So my hope is in my world is that the folklore become kind of a way that people can see the weight they're carrying. outside of themselves. And I know for some people because I have two tattoos of my grandmother, you know, some people need physical items. Chris Stockton: tattoo of my dad on my leg. So J. Vaelorin (Justin Anderson): Exactly. And so I started looking at different ways of you know trying to help externalize or bring awareness to the weight of these different occupations ⁓ for and ⁓ I'll send you an image of it like for firefighters. ⁓ I have a shirt that shows a line Which in my world, like I said, threads are important parts. So you'll see threads in all my work. You know, from you know, it cuts across the fire and it says, you know, we are the line where all fires stop in you know, letting people know that this this is where you stand. You stand in the middle of all of this, you know, this raging inferno. to make sure that everything else behind you is safe. And, you know, it's not yelling that, you know, I have trauma from my job. It's not, but it's also acknowledging this is real weight that you carry. Like not everybody is is willing to stand there, suit or not, and let fire roar towards them, you know. So, you know, these are the things that I tell people. ⁓ you know, you can find me. I love getting opinions of those who are in that field. Does this feel true to you? What would you want people to understand, you know, because I'm not part of this field. I'm witnessing what you're telling me. What would you want people to get from this? So when they interact with you, it doesn't feel shallow, it doesn't you know, bring up these negative thoughts. ⁓ so I I would love your opinion on some of that. Chris Stockton: I'd be honored. That'd be great. And just a huge shout out to you for this. ⁓ thank you for coming on, talking about the depression, the mythology, the silence, burning guilt, survivor's guilt, family, language, you know, the silence we don't speak. ⁓ and everyone listening, if this episode hits close to home, don't just swallow it and go back to pretending. Send it to somebody. Send it to a responder who carries something they cannot name. Send it to a person whose musical that went quiet. Send it to the spouse trying to understand the silence. Or send it to a person who needs a different language before they can just say the truth out loud. I'm gonna go ahead and stop.