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Kate Hudgins, PhD. Post-Traumatic Growth & The Therapeutic Spiral Model: from the archives · The Trauma Therapist

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  Or today we even another episode from the archives with one of my incredible guests,
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  enjoy or welcome back to the Trauma divers podcast. My name is Gaming
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  Person. My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to
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  be human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big
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  believer in who we are is more important than what we know, and this
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  requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn
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  more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist Project dot com.
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  That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right,
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  guys, Welcome back to Trauma the everst two point er. I am
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  back, and Kate Hudgsons is back joining me again for now. Kate,
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  this is our third in the series. Fourth in the series well story and
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  then three. Okay, and today we're talking about post traumatic growth and the
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  trauma Therapeutic spiral model. So give before we get going here, give us
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  the nutshell description of what TSM is. Okay, So, TSM is a
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  clinically modified form of classical psycho drama. Um psycho drama is the love of
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  my heart. I grew up in it, And then as I became a
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  clinical psychologist, I saw that things needed to be added to make it safeod
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  everybody knows now that experiential therapy is the treatment of choice for trauma at least
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  Okay, I just want to make sure I can. I'm not hearing you
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  loud enough. Is that we might need to get you closer. There we
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  go, Yeah, okay, perfectly, Sometimes it doesn't, that's perfect.
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  So yeah, So that the therapeutic spiral is a clinically modified model of classical
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  psycho drama. Um. You know, I grew up in the days or
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  psychodrama with still throwing chairs or you know, doing all sorts of things that
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  were alloud catharsis, And when I became a clinical psychologist, I saw that
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  that needed to be changed. And the more all of us learn about trauma,
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  the more we know we have to have regulation, we have to have
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  containment. You know, you just don't go into the the trauma right away.
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  So what you and I have done Guy, in our three sessions is
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  we've gone through the three stages of the therapeutic spiral model TSM psychodrama. Our
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  first session is about the prescriptive roles building up the strengths, and you were
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  gracious enough to let me play with you and your self doubt. So you
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  know, we've built up your strengths to like look at yourself doubt and contain
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  your defense. You know, like we actually your defense was self doubt kind
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  of you know, harassing you about self doubt. And then the second stage
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  we did last time a few months ago, was looking at the trauma triangle,
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  the TSM trauma triangle, which is victim, perpetrator, an abandoning authority
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  or abandoning, abandonment of self. So today we're doing stage three, which
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  is post traumatic growth. We used to call it transformation, but then some
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  of the researchers came up with the term post traumatic growth, and I like
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  it better. It's it's more tangible. You know, everything we do in
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  psychodrama, as you see my stage here now, you know, everything we
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  do is tangible. So this postraumatic growth stage is this considered the closing stage
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  in a session or treatment? How would you describe it? Well, you
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  know, TSM is a three stage model of experiential psychotherapy. It goes over
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  one session, it goes over two months of therapy, it goes over six
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  months, two years. It's always like you know, preparation, strength,
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  building, trauma, work, transformation. What you and I have done is
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  just kind of dip in, you know, one drama, one little mini
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  drama at a time to one issue in that same pattern. Okay, but
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  you know one session would be like that, one workshop would be like that,
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  one group would be like that over time. UM. And that's and
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  that's a standard, really really good psychological model of trauma treatment. UM three
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  stages of treatment that's been around since Judith Herman in the nineteen nineties. Right
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  right, Okay, all right, so let's dive in here. Okay,
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  are you ready to play? I think so, okay, you're you're always
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  like, okay, enough talking, You're You're You're the one of the easiest
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  protagonists I've had. So here we have you. This This was you know,
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  this was you in your other two scenes. So do you want this
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  to still be you? Or do you want some other figure? I think
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  I think that's fine. Yeah, I'm not offended by that. Yeah.
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  So you've seen this, this figure for you go through building up strength,
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  looking itself, doubt, pushing it aside, and now we're ready to like
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  come out with some good stuff. Okay, So what do you want to
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  say to this guy? Just as you start off, M I don't know.
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  I mean, I feel I like the figure. It's just it's uh,
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  I think it works. The hair might be a bit much for me,
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  all right, an idolized image, and all in all seriousness, I
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  think the image. It feels good, it feels congruent. So this is
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  we always have to make the switch where you talk about instead of two.
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  So so talk to the figure and just say I like you, you know,
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  like, Okay, there's a little much, but like you. I
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  like you, like I'm ready to talk to you today again. Okay,
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  um sure, all right, So yeah, I like you. I think
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  you're you. You have a good vibe about you, and I'm ready to
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  go. I'm ready to ready to keep you. We'll work with you,
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  okay, all right. So we're gonna put him on the top of the
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  therapeutic Spiral stage. This is a replica of the original psycho drama stage at
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  Beacon, New York. The original classical psycho drama stage the three layers,
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  well the warm up the balcony, which is not for audience but is for
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  role playing of internal reality external reality. So often I keep my husky up
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  there. You know, he's God spelled backwards, so he kind of stays
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  there. And I put a spiral shell with a bit of golden thread when
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  we do post traumatic growth. So I put that in the middle of this.
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  And let's just have a walk around the stage together. And I'm gonna
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  walk you around and you're gonna just soliloquy, talk out loud. This is
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  the freud This is the psychodramatic version of Freudian and laying on the So if
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  a free station instead, you walk and talk. So you could even move
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  your body, because you know, you found and when we've worked before,
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  moving your body helps. So you just move your body a little bit,
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  and just like we're gonna take like a couple of things around. And what
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  did happen in that first session six months ago, eight months ago, What
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  did happen in that session in the you know, in the time we looked
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  at a little bit of moving your defenses aside and the trauma. So let's
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  just kind of it's like a narrative, you know, of what you've already
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  done. So I'm walking around and you're talking out loud. Well, I
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  guess I feel comfortable on that stage. Um I I like the shell.
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  I like the idea of the spiral. Um I remember that. Um you
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  know, the different stages and steps that we worked through felt challenging, but
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  uh, definitely helpful. Remember this figure, m I don't know if I
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  do. Actually, it was your It was your spiritual connection that you puffed
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  out first, got in first. God in the way of that. My
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  my, what got in the way of your self doubt? Oh, my
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  self doubt got in the way of which, interestingly enough, was a green
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  stone if you remember, Well, I went looking for the green stone and
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  I can't find it. Okay, I don't know what happened. I honestly
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  when I went into I mean, this is this. I'm not like role
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  playing. I mean I went into the whole thing here, you know,
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  I went there's no greenstone and the Okay, I don't know. But so
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  maybe maybe this isn't your spiritual strength anymore. So you have a spiritual strength
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  maybe just right there already with the shell. With the shell. That sounds
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  good. Yeah, you've moved closer to the ocean. I understand. Well,
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  we're not on the coast. I mean, you know, we're about
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  three and a half hours actually from the ocean. But I love I do
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  like the shell. I like shells and like the symbolism of a shell,
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  kind of the spiral aspect to it. All right, So that's your problematic
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  growth that some figure you picked out nine months ago that now you can't even
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  remember to hold a role of a spiritual advisor. Internal role for you has
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  become so okay that now it's a shell that you can see anywhere. I'll
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  work with that, yeah, okay, all right, So do you remember,
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  um, so the green stone is missing? You know, so the
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  defense is missing. I can bring you up a new stone if you want
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  a defense or if you want something instead of But do you remember what this
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  this object did? Um? I remember the tree. It had a kind
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  of a positive feeling for me. I definitely remember that. Where should it
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  go on the stage? Now? Oh? Behind me? Like close behind
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  me? Right there? Yeah, yep, okay, okay, all right,
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  So before it was here, h and it you're a green stone of
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  defense that we can't find it protected, it kept it there. It was
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  what we called the manager defenses. It was the role of that it kept
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  your defense from jumping into your scene. So already again, we see another
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  transformation. So yeah, right up there right by side you. Now it's
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  not like distance, it's not far away. You know, it's right up
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  there on the stage for you. Yeah. So what what is the thing
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  you want to look for in terms of post traumatic growth? Um? Yeah,
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  I mean, if you've moved, maybe I'm telling secrets I shouldn't tell.
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  You can edit. That's I kind of let people know. Okay,
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  you're welcome to edit out if I tell us, if I tell your secrets,
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  Well, that's that's a really good question of what am I looking for
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  the post traumatic growth? Um. Caldeshi and Calhoun and Taldeshi are the researchers,
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  so I want to give them credit. And they say, there's six
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  stages of post traumatic growth. Your body gets some help changes healthier, more
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  relaxed. Your mind gets a broader view, your heart is able to deal
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  with more emotions, your psychological self is bigger, your interpersonal relationships improve,
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  or your spiritual sense of self is better. And when we do workshops,
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  we do a post traumatic growth pie that there's six pieces of the pie on
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  the floor and people go stand in where they got some growth. So how
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  about if you look at like, where did you get growth? Which area
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  in that post traumatic growth? Pie? As you were reading the listening those
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  often thinking yes, I would like some growth in there. Yes, I
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  would like some growth in there. Yes. So the question is where you've
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  already gotten the growth? Yeah, that's the first question. We can go
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  to the second question. But what's the first question? The first question is
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  where did you and we've already seen the growth here. You're no longer arguing
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  with your defense of self doubt. It's not even on the stage, like
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  you didn't tell me I should go looking for it when I was missing.
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  I mean some people that greenstone go right, I mean the real attached to
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  the greenstone. I did look. Well, you know, I I think
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  there's a you know, it's interesting that you that I that tree is behind
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  me. Um, and I'm actually so much closer to a lot more trees
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  now since our move. Um, do you like another tree? I have?
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  I have several trees here. I there. You know, it's it's
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  interesting, Kate. I feel that there has been some post traumatic growth and
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  and believe me, I don't consider my I consider myself that I feel like
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  I need a lot, a lot of work in a lot of different areas.
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  But as as much as I would like more of a calmness, I
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  feel that there has been some calmness that has that I have achieved. Right,
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  Um, But you know, as you were talking, you were saying,
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  well, there were certain areas, there were six areas. One of
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  the one then was relaxation, calmness. Yes, is that calmness, body,
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  mind, soul, I mean everything kind of ow wow. Oh yeah,
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  but there's but I definitely need more. I feel I want and need
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  more. But I feel that that there's been some some movement in that area,
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  some growth in that area. So you did pick this green object to
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  be your body double before, and that body double and TSM is just that
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  role that always kind of keeps you in a positive state, keeps you in
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  a stable state. It speaks from the first person. Yes, I can
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  breathe, Yes, I can let my shoulders down. You know, Um,
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  is that a figure to add or do you want to see if there's
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  something else? I like that figure? Yeah, I like that figure?
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  Right left up down to my left yep, yep, yep, yep,
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  right there, yep. Nice, All right, very good. Okay,
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  So so then let's now use the body because we've done the body double every
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  time, and so just a couple of deep breaths, I'm gonna deep breast
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  with you and the first person, and then I just want you to say
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  whatever comes up in terms of the I'm feeling my growth. I don't know
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  my wanting, but what I've already done one more, I'm just gonna sink
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  in and relax, just relax from I feel my body reloc sing on the
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  stage, my feature on the floor, at the tree behind me, I
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  feel, yeah, I feel comfortable and actually more confident and assured seeing myself
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  there with the tree, with the body double, yes, and the shell.
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  It makes me I guess where of these other what strengths that are that
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  are there that I normally a lot of times just don't really think about.
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  Well, these are actually the strength you worked on in our three sessions.
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  They're the very same. But what's happening now is they're coming up without the
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  defenses, without the block. Each time. In the first two sessions,
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  what you worked on, which was odd to me, but you worked on
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  it nonetheless, was self confidence, being confident in what you did. And
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  I mean, obviously you know you're doing a really cool thing that you know,
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  I'm like, why, well, why is this guy like even worrying
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  about confidence? But you know your drama. So I was right, you
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  know, I mean I might have her own journey lack of confidence too.
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  And I've been doing this for forty years, so all right. So so
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  so what you've got now is this time you just automatically came in to new
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  what we call a new internal role at them. So the role at them
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  that the to sirah, the trauma survivor's internal role at them, that's the
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  map in TSM. And we've done it. We've gone through the building up
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  the strengths, looking at the self doubt, looking at the defenses a gut
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  against the self doubt, self doubt, and then coming back to having a
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  post traumatic growth picture, you know, and you can feel and I can
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  see like there's you know, but I'd like a little more post traumatic growth
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  here, like a little morest prom Yeah, and that's fine, let's put
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  in some more. And the question is, like we keep going through the
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  spiral, like this is what we do. Strengths, trauma, post traumatic
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  growth strengths, trauma post traumatic growth strengths, trauma post traumatic growth. So
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  like in COVID. You know, like we've ramped up since March. We've
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  been online in ways that we never imagined we would do, and and our
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  things are alive or up or moving like I mean, it's it's exciting things
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  and we're still keeping that like strengths, trauma, traumatic growth. So what
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  else do you want to add here? Like this? You know, this
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  is kind of the our first spiral. Who knows where we'll go from here,
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  but it's the end of our first spiral. Well, I think,
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  you know, to create a or to represent an an accurate picture, I
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  think doubt has to be in there. All right, all right, I
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  really do I mean by no means do I want to paint a picture of
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  so without any doubt? Yeah? Yeah, so look oh god, good
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  goodness. No, we wouldn't want to be that. No, so kick
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  something or you know, we can go back and look at the stone pile.
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  There's two stone piles. Knows maybe I did miss the greenstone. I
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  don't think. So look look at that. Look at it, you know,
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  I and thinking about it. I don't like the idea of using a
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  stone as doubt it. Um, I would pick something else. I would
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  pick all right, Um, look around there, so let's here that works
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  for you. I would I would pick a figure even in fact, just
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  that figure that you have one with the red yeah, that one, yeah,
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  and put it on the lying down on like the first note down below,
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  Yeah, but closer to you on that on that level, closer that
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  way, like behind that yep, yep, yep. Keep going around though,
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  yeah, okay, okay, yeah, okay. In the days pre
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  COVID, you would actually be moving and figures yourself of course, m and
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  it's still like, you know, you still get it, keep going this
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  way, get it because you want it. You want your drama. This
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  is your stage, here's your picture. Like it used to be, like
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  the first scene, it was absolutely between you and your spiritual support. Okay,
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  now spiritual supports, hunky dory there, everything's fine, got the tree,
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  you know, So now what is it you want to say to the
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  stout that's left. I would say that I say, pardon I'm saying.
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  I say that you're definitely there, but I realize you're it. You feel
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  less solid to me, the doubt, you feel more fallible, And I
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  think part of that is it's kind of this is weird, Kate, because
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  as I'm doing this. It see seeing these things there, I definitely do
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  feel a certain something's happened, strengths happened. But yeah, I don't know
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  how it's weird. I honestly I don't. But this feels what I'm doing.
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  I'm not bessing. It's like I really do feel that. Yeah,
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  it's actually look at it. Look at that figure, right, it's a
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  little being, right, it's a smaller version of you. Yeah. So
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  that's a huge thing right now, part of you that you can tenderally talk
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  to. And what's happening is your active experiencing inside yourself is changing. That's
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  what you're feeling. I'm not interpreting. I'm just I'm helping guide you and
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  the TSM path using our trauma survivors roll at him to we're looking at this
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  and you do all the work with your autonomous healing center inside. I mean,
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  that's what I love about psycho track Like like you are, You're just
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  like, so, come back, what is it? You know we have
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  ten minutes more? What is it you want to say to this part of
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  you to end our first spiral building up to I I mean, as far
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  as you know, to the doubt, I mean, I feel like you're
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  there. I realize you're there. Part of it to the part of you
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  that doubts, the part of me that doubts. What do I want to
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  say to the part of me that doubts, Yeah, get that close that
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  direct. No, we're talking about all the way to the part of me
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  that doubts. I would say, I don't I feel you're you're there.
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  I feel like you you don't have as much weight or strength that I gave
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  to you in the past. Um And it's clearly I see it's symbolized by
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  the fact that you're lying down. You know. It's it's kind of and
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  and very kind of almost a weakened position and inert position. It doesn't feel
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  as you or how do I say you you don't feel as active as I'm
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  letting previous and what I'm letting you rest. I'm letting you rest. And
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  that's fine, Yeah, doubling as always if it's right, take it if
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  it isn't, you know, But when I speak in the eyes ites like
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  I'm letting you rest, I don't need you right now to be my driver.
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  There you go, Yeah, that's that sounds good. Yeah, I
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  don't need I don't need you to be my driver, whereas before, definitely
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  I felt it was there um and had had a bigger role. Thank you
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  for thank you for helping me get where I am. Yeah, definitely,
• 24:44
  thank you for for being there. And you're still there. But it definitely
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  doesn't feel as a butt and it makes a container favor and doesn't feel as
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  powerful. You don't feel as powerful. You can rest. I'm doing okay.
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  Yeah, yeah, well I'm doing okay. I'm doing okay. Yeah,
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  I'm doing okay with you right there, laying down, resting, taking
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  a break. So in our trauma survirus role at them, you know,
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  we have the prescriptive roles or the body doubles, the strengths, and then
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  we did the trauma triangle last time. Well, there are three particular roles
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  that are really important and post traumatic growth in our map. One is called
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  the sleeping awakening child. The other is the appropriate authority, and then there's
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  a good enough parents. So I see you have a beautiful appropriate authority,
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  like you're you're really standing there. Yeah, you even took a breath.
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  I heard it. I take another breath to feel like, yeah, so
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  I think we could actually take this. This is the little magic of psycho
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  drama that I always loved. So we can take this little golden cloth and
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  we could put it over this wounded, self doubting part of room. And
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  then you, who have a little bit of musician magic in you, you
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  could like just put a wish or even take the golden cloth off and awaken
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  that part of you. Because the sleeping awakening child in TSM, it's a
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  role. It's a made up role. I made it up at a moment
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  where I was playing a wounded child in somebody's drama. Somebody else was directing
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  the drama, and I was playing a wounded child and the protagonist the drama
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  was about sexual trauma, sexual abuse, alcoholism, and his family. He
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  was gonna do his anger work with his parents. That was the drama.
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  So he put me as a wounded child in a little nest, created a
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  little sub scene with a little nest. I had a little bunch of pillows,
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  a bunch of scarfs, and I must have really been tired because while
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  he was yelling and screaming and angry at his parents, like just you know,
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  maybe twenty feet away, I literally went to sleep. And when I
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  went to sleep, I heard celestial music. I mean, I still don't
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  really believe all these things I've experienced, but this is a true experience.
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  You know. I heard celestial music and I felt so peaceful. And after
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  he'd done all of his rage work, all of his anger work, he
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  came back to me expecting to find a wounded child, filled with self doubt,
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  self loathing, and he came any edges like you know, this is
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  a male protagonist, and you know, like he was like, heyy,
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  wake up, wake up, and I'm like, what happened? What did
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  you do? And it was like I just felt in that moment that there
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  was a part of any trauma survivor, that man who was a trauma survivor
• 28:03
  myself, as you know from my own story, is a trauma survivor that
• 28:07
  we all had a part that didn't get dissociated, just went to sleep and
• 28:12
  stayed safe and protected from the moment of trauma on waiting for this where you
• 28:22
  now say, I stand in my appropriate authority to go forward. I keep
• 28:26
  you in your right place, the wounds I help heal, I go forward.
• 28:33
  But it's a part that like it's it can become such a creative part
• 28:37
  for people to see this part that was wounded or you thought was wounded,
• 28:42
  but underneath it all there's a sleeping awakening child. And I think we have
• 28:48
  about five more minutes if you want to wake that part of your up.
• 28:52
  Let's see you. Yeah, I mean, m I place my hand on
• 29:00
  my heart, didn't really feel what's true? Yeah, my voice just changed.
• 29:06
  I would I'll wake that part up. I mean, I feel I
• 29:11
  have a respect for that part, even though I don't really like that that
• 29:26
  part of me. And maybe there's like some shame there too, in the
• 29:29
  fact that you know I have doubt. I mean I no, doubt can
• 29:33
  be healthy and all that stuff, But um, I pick something to be
• 29:38
  shame so we can discriminate bestrange shame and the awakening of creativity, because shame's
• 29:45
  going to hold you back and there's no shame in doubt. I would say,
• 29:52
  uh, one of those black figures that was that? Is that a
• 29:56
  dracula there? That one? Yeah? Or that yeah, let's do that
• 30:00
  one. Put that over to it the brown bowl? Yeah yeah, okay,
• 30:07
  so that's shame. Okay, it's on the same level of the stage.
• 30:14
  So I wonder if you could invite your sleeping awakening child to come up
• 30:18
  a level and leave shame down a level. I think I feel comfortable doing
• 30:26
  that. Okay, why don't you come up there? Doubt and wait?
• 30:30
  As you do, you can wake up too. I wake up a little
• 30:33
  bit. Yeah. See, there's a there's a yellow the golden light there.
• 30:40
  The thing is about him when he wakes up, he stands up.
• 30:42
  He's not a suitable figure, so he'd either up right away. That's okay.
• 30:48
  Yeah, So what do you want to say there? And what do
• 30:51
  you want to say to just give shame? It's proper place. And yeah,
• 30:59
  I mean, I guess I realized that shame is there. Don't tell
• 31:07
  me to shame shame. I can see you there, I realize you're there.
• 31:12
  I have a certain amount of respect for you, but I feel that
• 31:18
  you're definitely not, you know, driving the bus as it were. Um,
• 31:25
  no more driving the bus, No more driving the bus. You've worked
• 31:30
  really well with your body before, and we haven't really got the body involved
• 31:33
  now. So I want you to really get a chorus of like, no
• 31:36
  more driving the bus. I want your body to go. No more driving
• 31:41
  the bus. Yeah, I mean I don't think shame was ever driving the
• 31:47
  bus, but you were. I think shame you were. Definitely you're definitely
• 31:51
  there. But more driving. I'm not going to analyze you. No more
• 31:56
  driving the bus. No more driving the bus. Shame again, analysis,
• 32:01
  No more driving the bus. I don't even have to bargain with you.
• 32:06
  I don't have to analyze you. Just no more bargain. No more driving
• 32:10
  the bus one more time, if you will, No more driving the bus.
• 32:14
  Shame you even got off the stage there, At least it felt like
• 32:20
  it to me. Yeah, yeah, I think doubt you're there. I
• 32:28
  see you again. I have respect for you, um, and I think
• 32:36
  standing up is fine for me. I don't feel threatened so much by you,
• 32:42
  doubt. And can I see and what? And I see your golden
• 32:52
  light? And I see what you protected from me? And I'm sorry I
• 32:59
  couldn't hear you. Okay, I see your golden light? Double? Can
• 33:04
  I see? Oh? Can I see? Are you only saying this as
• 33:07
  a wounded child or are you also saying that's part of that sleeping awakening child
• 33:14
  that I told you about. Yeah, that's that feels very comfortable with me.
• 33:20
  I feel that it is very much a sleeping awakening child. Part your
• 33:30
  creativity has part of blossom of me. Yeah, what do you want to
• 33:36
  say to give it that extra own because it is about this role and TSM
• 33:42
  is about you've made your life safe enough, and we all have work to
• 33:45
  do. And you said you had work to do. We all have work
• 33:46
  to do. You know. We didn't work to have work to do,
• 33:51
  would be dead. So of course we have work to do. And that's
• 33:54
  part of the doubt that we welcome, like we welcome. Yeah, of
• 33:58
  course we have doubt. Of course we have something else to do. Of
• 34:00
  course there's more to be healed, connected honored, you know, of course.
• 34:08
  But then there's this this part that you say, yeah, and I
• 34:14
  see there's a part of me that I'm I'm embracing in a way maybe you've
• 34:19
  never embraced before. That's my invitation, my invitation because you I see you,
• 34:23
  I see it swirling. I mean, I see it swirling. Yeah.
• 34:28
  I think that's a good observation. Man. I do feel that previously
• 34:35
  doubt was something you you doubt were something that was uh what in my way,
• 34:45
  I feel that I can appreciate you more, you know, I feel
• 34:51
  that that part of part of me is um, sorry I fell down,
• 34:57
  you were talking. I just want you to see my golden stuff. I
• 35:02
  feel, I guess I feel it's value where it's worth, your value.
• 35:09
  I feel your value and your worth. I'm gonna put my hand in my
• 35:14
  heart so I'm connected to what I'm saying. I feel your value and I
• 35:19
  feel your worth and don't feel as fearful of you at this point. I
• 35:30
  mean, yeah, starting to see I have a little bit of golden light.
• 35:35
  What's it again, I'm just starting to see I have a little bit
• 35:37
  of golden light, and I'm just starting to see you have a little bit
• 35:40
  of golden light. Right, I'm going to try not to knock him over,
• 35:47
  just to let you talk to the golden light. As a final scene,
• 35:52
  what do you say to the golden light? That still has to be
• 35:57
  further Well, I love I love the idea of golden light. I mean,
• 36:04
  I liked you. I love the idea of you, and I mean
• 36:10
  golden light. You're welcome to shine on me at any point. Yeah,
• 36:19
  come, I will visit night dreams, all right, in your dreams.
• 36:25
  That sounds great, Thank you God, thank you golden Light. We will
• 36:30
  leave the scene there and I'll take a picture of it after a word for
• 36:35
  you at up close shut. Um, so you can have it for yourself.
• 36:38
  UM. I do appreciate that each session we've done, you've really fully
• 36:44
  entered into it from your your true self. Yeah, it's been great.
• 36:49
  It's uh this one I think especially so uh, just very very interesting.
• 36:57
  What'd you say that? Each one? But you right, really go back
• 37:02
  and watch all three and see the progression from building up your strengths fighting with
• 37:08
  like doubted, I mean, and the first scene, like when we were
• 37:12
  doing the strengths and mean, oh my god, doubt took over the entire
• 37:15
  scene. And then the second scene we got a little bit more about like
• 37:19
  why doubt was there, And this one is like, you're right, this
• 37:22
  is ultimately like we always go for even when we're dealing with a cute trauma
• 37:29
  like COVID in the moment, like dealing with somebody who's you know, like
• 37:31
  dealing with the acute stage of something. You know, they've lost people,
• 37:37
  they've like we're still always going through strings trauma. Post traumatic grows strings trauma.
• 37:42
  You don't have to like wait for this, right, right, what
• 37:45
  is the thing that changed inside of you? Because that's what what TSM is
• 37:49
  about. It's about changing the active experiencing inside of yourself. You know,
• 37:54
  you shared so openly that people could see it, they could see it changing
• 38:00
  in you. Yeah, what does that feel like? How did you get
• 38:05
  there? You make this? So I don't know, that's a tough question,
• 38:12
  Kate, but I I don't know. This. This looking at this
• 38:15
  model and seeing it just feels really right to me. You know, it's
• 38:23
  funny that putting that that tree and then the body double and the spiritual guidance
• 38:31
  of the shell and then working with doubt and really this is this is very
• 38:39
  powerful, you know, seeing doubt not only seeing it as something kind of
• 38:49
  apart from me or as a part of me, but as a part from
• 38:52
  me, and then being able to uh kind of respect it and honor,
• 39:00
  especially in relation to the shame and so forth. Yeah, and the shame
• 39:06
  you know, it doesn't belong on this stage. If we were doing deep
• 39:10
  therapy, and we might bring this shame on the on the stage and do
• 39:15
  something different with it, and that's not what we're doing. Well, very
• 39:20
  powerful. Um, so so you this is what you do? Yes,
• 39:27
  I do I do this, um with my stage. Um, what we're
• 39:30
  doing now, since you know March is we're doing Zoom things, and we
• 39:35
  do some of it on the stage. That like, we have a group
• 39:37
  and people pick figures to be around the stage and we might enact a drama
• 39:44
  or we also do the Zoom windows on the just do do dramas with the
• 39:50
  Zoom windows, right, I mean, it's like, I'm actually excited about
• 39:55
  what we're learning with Zoom. Right. So many therapists are like, oh,
• 39:59
  it's like such a burden. I mean to me as a creative bridge
• 40:01
  right now, and our groups that you know, it used to be I'd
• 40:06
  go to Croatia, I'd go to Taiwan, I go, wow, homogeneous
• 40:09
  groups. Right now our groups are hundred people from eighteen different countries. Oh
• 40:15
  my god, you know, I mean, it's amazing what Zoom is allowing
• 40:20
  us to do. And we get up and we dance, and we sing
• 40:23
  and we cry and we do full dramas on the stage. So you know,
• 40:28
  I don't know when I'll ever see another country again, but you know,
• 40:30
  I'm seeing millions or not millions, but you know many more people around
• 40:37
  the Zoom world, which we call the brain in the Zoom world. Well,
• 40:42
  I'm so excited to get this out and share it with everyone. And
• 40:45
  I just want to thank you again for coming on here and sharing your wisdom
• 40:53
  and your inspiration. It's it's been an honor to take part in these things.
• 40:58
  I want to do another one. You know, I'm available. Let's
• 41:01
  keep So what we did was show the basic map of prescriptive roles, trauma
• 41:07
  roles, transformation, post traumatic growth roles. We can do some more about
• 41:12
  what is a body, douvil? What is uh? How do you roll
• 41:15
  reverse with the strength at it? We actually get there, you know?
• 41:19
  Yeah? And if not, I always enjoy the pleasure and the gift that
• 41:23
  you gave me to let me walk beside you. That that is what in
• 41:27
  TSM. We walked beside people. We're got a down model. We're a
• 41:31
  walk beside well. Thank you so much, Kate, take care all right, Bye bye