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Psychological Hazards in the Workplace and the ROR: Return On Relationships with Linda Crockett · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Rob Derhodge.
• 0:38
  It's yet again another week, and I have a another amazing a guest with me, Linda
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  Crockett, Linda, attended a a a Powell that we have not too long ago and it was well received.
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  And I asked Linda to come back today to speak a little bit more on her expertise, which is
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  psychological hazards in the workplace.
• 0:58
  So Linda, thanks for coming in today.
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  Happy to be here.
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  Thanks for having me back.
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  Oh, well, you know what?
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  I always love when my my guests come back and spend some more time with you with me.
• 1:09
  Sorry.
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  So I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Linda and, we'll felt a little bit more into her
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  background, but she's an international specialist for preventing and addressing
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  workplace psychological hazards.
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  And she's the founder of the Canadian Institute for Workplace Building Resources.
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  So Linda, that's you know, when you think about a path like this and I'm always intrigued, when
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  I hear someone working in, I would say a subset of a specialty, which is workplace concerns or
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  workplace health.
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  Tell me kind of your path and what kind of How does one grow up to work in psychological
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  hazards in the in the workplace?
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  I think it in 2008, when I was sitting at my rock bottom, I was wondering the same thing,
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  Roxanne.
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  But at at that point in my career, I was a bachelor's degree social worker.
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  And I had 22 years of experience in my profession.
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  So I knew what abuse was.
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  I certainly, I mean, I I even supervised and trained investigators, assessors, You name it.
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  I knew what abuse was.
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  If it was child abuse, sexual abuse, drug abuse, domestic violence, I knew all the signs.
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  I knew all the the systems that you walk people through.
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  You know what I'm talking about there, the mental health system, the justice system, I
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  walked through with hundreds of people, thousands, families.
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  And yet in 2008, something was happening to me in my workplace and I couldn't figure it out.
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  I just I noticed this dark cloud kind of followed me everywhere I go because pretty much
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  every time I spoke up and said, hey, you can't have an affair in the workplace.
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  I would get transferred out.
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  Or if I said, Hey, you can't drink while you're working, I would get punished, you know, So
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  this kind of dark cloud cloud followed me, but I never knew why I kept getting in trouble.
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  I thought I was doing the right thing.
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  But at the 22 year mark, I hit rock bottom.
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  I ended up I was working in a cancer center.
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  I was a medical social worker.
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  I was helping people through one of the most difficult things you could ever help people
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  through, whether they recovered or they passed away.
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  I was helping families afterwards.
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  I loved my job.
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  This is where I wanted to dig my heels in, my roots.
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  I wanted to stay there until I retired.
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  But, unfortunately, it turned out to be the most toxic workplace for me.
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  I was a a target of mopping and mobbing is when 2 or more people act out with negative tactics
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  and behaviors towards 1 or more people.
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  So bullying with a gang mentality, really.
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  And the leader of that gang was a psychologist.
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  So you could imagine that there would be a lot of pretty sophisticated skills there in order
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  to figure out what your buttons were.
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  His sidekick was a supervisor, and she was in, a bachelor's degree of social work as well.
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  And the other per two people were human resource at workers.
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  And then there was, an office manager who I would call the silent bully because she met
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  them behind closed doors and was on their side, but never ever did anything in front of me.
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  So on any given day, it would be any given one of them or a few of them, that would, do
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  something towards me that would just leave me baffled, sideline, dead, confused, and
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  completely feeling unsafe, psychologically unsafe.
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  Because I I didn't know when I was gonna walk out my office door and be accused of something
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  that I hadn't even thought of yet.
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  You know, or accused of stealing, I broke, 40 hours of overtime while I was drilled, like, I
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  was put through, you know, some sort of camp for torture on these 40 hours.
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  And when they figured out they made the mistake, there was no apology, which is
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  constant insult insults, insults to my reputation, to my character.
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  Some people call it character assassination.
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  Anyway, ended up with total, I had acid reflux.
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  I had ulcers in my stomach.
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  I had a permanent gastrointestinal diagnosis.
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  And I ended up with depression, anxiety.
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  I lost so much weight, and my hair was falling out.
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  So if we all know that, you know, high long term stress will impact your auto immune
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  system.
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  And I was your basic, you know, great example of that.
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  I look like I was on chemo.
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  I by the time it was finished, I could barely say a word.
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  I could barely talk.
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  So I went on sick leave to get some recovery.
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  Didn't know what this was.
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  What was this?
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  You know, I didn't realize it was workplace bullying or psychological harassment.
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  I didn't realize it.
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  And someone gave me a research paper on it and I read about a paragraph gassed and threw that
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  paper across the room thinking that can't happen to me, not with my trading, It was it
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  sat there for about a week.
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  I picked it up off the floor and read it.
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  I mean, I was sick to my stomach.
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  Yes, this is it.
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  I am being psychologically honest.
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  I am being bullied.
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  And it was so shaming Roxanne because, well, look at my training.
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  I should have seen it.
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  I should have known better.
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  I should have blah blah blah blah blah.
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  That stuff we say to ourselves.
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  And, you know, I went into isolation.
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  I went into shame.
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  I just shrunk.
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  And, I think it was it was quite a long time before I realized, wait a minute, you know,
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  doctors make mistakes, nurses make mistakes, police officers make mistakes, why can't a
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  social worker?
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  Nobody trained us on this stuff?
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  Nobody gave us language to identify what workplace psychological harassment was or
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  psychological violence.
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  Nobody gave us this language.
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  No one is to this day is training.
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  1st year students in nursing or 1st year students in social work on this topic.
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  It should be mandatory.
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  We're talking 13 years ago, and we're still not training.
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  But so how was I supposed to know what this was?
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  This is a far more insidious subtle, crazy making, psychological harassment.
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  It is a childhood bullying, And we could talk about that later, but anyway, you asked why did
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  I end up here?
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  Well, I realized when I looked for help, there was nothing in Canada Nothing.
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  Nobody was talking about it.
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  There was no help.
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  I tried 4 therapists.
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  They all made me worse.
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  Because they didn't understand this injury.
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  And one even cried with me because she knew she couldn't help me.
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  The 5th one was the one that helped me.
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  It wasn't until I was in that 5th one that I realized I've gotta do something about this.
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  So I went, like, I got my master's degree.
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  This was my thesis.
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  I then, went out to the United States, and I took Gary Naomi's course, which is the
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  Workplace Building Institute in the USA.
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  And, and him and I are now good friends.
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  I am the Institute in Canada.
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  So I still felt a real responsibility to be even more qualified than that.
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  I then became a trauma therapist.
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  I got certified in somatic experience in trauma therapy and EMDR and post traumatic, a few
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  other things, but I I felt I really needed to be responsible, for these vulnerable people
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  because I knew the walk I knew the hell.
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  I knew the horror of it, and I wanted to make sure I was responsible, very qualified but I
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  also had to heal a lot too, so I was healing during that time.
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  And then I started this company and just crack and open the door.
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  It was floodgates.
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  13 years, I've never not been busy, not even touching the tip of the iceberg on this
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  problem.
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  But, you know, I'm in Canada, I'm proud to say that we have some legislation in our every
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  province.
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  I'm proud to say we have some federal legislation didn't think we'd see that in our
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  lifetime, my lifetime.
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  But what we do, we still have a lot of work to do on it.
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  But that's how I ended up here.
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  I went through it.
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  Wow.
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  What's what a path?
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  I know I was gonna ask you about you know, how you began, but, what an unfortunate path,
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  through, such adversity, but to be able to come out you know, the other side of it and giving
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  what I believe is so necessary, because of the kind of work that I've done in In workplace,
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  health and safety as well.
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  So that's such an important thing.
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  I think I realized the 2000 when I hit rock bottom that I'd actually been trained for all
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  my life.
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  So that's why I went through it as a child.
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  So that's why I went through it with sibling bullying.
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  I experienced sibling bullying and childhood bullying.
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  Totally different than the workplace bullying, but then I started experiencing it through that
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  22 years in my social work career.
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  Like I said to you, I called out an affair in the workplace and got transferred out I called
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  out a woman, a supervisor who was drinking, and I got punished.
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  I called out another supervisor for yelling and screaming at a secretary.
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  I stepped up and spoke up and said the right thing, but I always got punished for it.
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  So then I realized, yeah, I've actually been formally trained an entire life this is gonna
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  help me in the business that I'm gonna create.
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  You know what?
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  I find fascinating, actually, and and I'm so goodness.
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  Thanks so much for sharing that.
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  And I know you know, oftentimes that vulnerability, for a lot of people, they keep
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  it in.
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  I can say, you know, and I've been in the field now.
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  I started off in trauma, by the way.
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  At age twenty one.
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  I worked with a Metro trauma police.
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  And trauma, like yours, I have specialties in EMDR, I worked in complex PTSD for almost 20
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  years.
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  So understand what you're talking about.
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  What I find unfortunate, and I think I can say it after all these years, I'm now fifty seven
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  years old after being in the field for so long, combination of frontline, manage aerial
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  leadership positions and also in health and wellness, with one of the biggest behavioral
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  change companies, internationally.
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  Is that sometimes the environments that you expect that should have knowledge, and know how
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  are are oftentimes the ones that are most toxic.
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  So I wonder if we could chat a little bit about that because I can share a little bit about my
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  experiences that sometimes they were more brutal that environments that you would expect
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  less, kind of safety in.
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  Mhmm.
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  Well, nothing nothing shocks me anymore.
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  I mean, 13 years, I've worked with a lot of organizations, and I've had thousands of them
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  targets.
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  And bystanders.
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  And I even work with the respondents.
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  And, you know, some of the organizations that promote psychological safety Well, their staff
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  is coming to me.
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  That says something, doesn't it?
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  I can't name names, but some people that, you know, hold, events for psychological safety, I
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  get their staff who are being bullied.
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  So there's a lot of hypocrisy There's a lot of lip service.
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  You know, we the larger the organization, the worse I find it.
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  So our larger organizations, I think we can all figure out what those are.
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  I see, for some reason, I see a lot more, talk and the leadership.
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  I don't know if it's competition.
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  I don't know if we're not hiring for merit.
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  We're hiring our buddies instead.
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  We're not putting in p people in positions that they're you know, trained and experienced and
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  mentored on.
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  We're not monitoring our leaders.
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  They're getting away with stuff.
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  And you've just got too many chefs in the in the kitchen.
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  I don't know what it is, but it is far more Roxanne, the larger the organization.
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  Interesting.
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  Yeah.
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  Because, you know, again, in my role, I manage companies, different, you know, sometimes
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  upwards of 50 companies at any given point.
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  And sometimes it's the environments that you shouldn't believe.
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  You know, these are people that we talk about communication.
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  We talk about transparency.
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  We we talk about you know, vulnerability, you know, to be able to join with others.
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  And these are all things that you expect would be a basic kind of level of acumen, and that
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  oftentimes would be the environments.
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  We'd be dealing more with people coming forward and having issues with arbitrations, you know,
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  lots of in new unit environments.
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  A lot of people saying, you know, I would go forward, but, you know, I know nothing's gonna
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  done those types of things.
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  And I'm now I'm talking when I started in that world, it was 2000.
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  And like you're saying as much as 13 years ago, You were when you went through your concern,
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  there really hadn't been much shifts.
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  So it's it's it's it's great to know now, that there are resources because, you know, I would
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  say I believe that truly all of us go to work because, we wanna make a difference with with
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  whatever we're doing, but to go to work with the concept of then I have to be a a concerned
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  or if I'm belittled or, you know, if there's harassment, but it's it's joking.
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  And then I, like you say, I talk myself out of it.
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  That kind of implicit belief that maybe that's not a thing.
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  People stay a little bit longer before they kind of start to talk to others to say this
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  isn't feeling very good for me.
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  I'm I'm glad that that we now have a resource like that in Canada.
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  Yeah.
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  We do, you know, but it's still happening.
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  It's still, in my opinion, an epidemic.
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  I still see people.
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  Obviously, I'm still very, very busy, so it's still a problem.
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  And, you know, we've got people who think they can fix it.
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  You know, they don't understand the true definition.
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  There's a lot of confusion around the definition of what is workplace psychological
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  harassment or psychological violence.
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  There's a confusion there.
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  You've got a lot of employers who are bearing their head in the sand and not taking the
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  training that is mandatory.
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  You know, so there's mandatory that your your legislation, your policies and procedures must
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  align with the new act, whether it's federal provincial, it must align, right?
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  And then you must train your staff on that policy and procedure, but that's not enough
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  because this issue is not just the policy and procedure issue.
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  This is a human issue.
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  It's just like domestic violence and sexual assault.
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  So why aren't we training people on in-depth trauma informed training, policies and
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  procedures, great, useless if the leaders aren't following them, and enough a lot of
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  leaders are not following them, so they're useless.
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  There's they're not creating psychological safety if they're not following their policies
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  and procedures consistently.
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  If you don't have a cohesive leadership team that all buys into 0 tolerance, we're gonna
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  practice what we preach.
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  We're gonna walk or talk.
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  We're gonna we're gonna show our staff that we are gonna follow our policies and procedures no
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  matter what the case, we're gonna follow them.
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  That's what's gonna teach your staff that you you respect psychological safety that you
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  protect them.
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  That's what's gonna show them that, but we don't have that happening.
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  It's very rare.
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  We have some great employers out there.
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  I'm not kidding you there.
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  Have give some we're giving up some awards this year for that, but that's not the norm, you
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  know, to be following that the policies and procedures and giving them and talking about
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  the human aspect.
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  So let's let's let's back up a little bit because I think I'm remiss in I know I know
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  what it is, the definition you are, the expert in the definition.
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  Can you anybody listening, that's probably thinking, okay, I think I missed a step here
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  because I'm not really sure what the actual basic definition of psychological health and
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  safety and the requirements for the place.
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  What is the basic definition of being psychologically safe under the act in the
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  workplace?
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  Well, again, where are we talk?
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  Which province are we talking?
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  Well, let's say let's say, okay, I'm in Ontario, and then you're in Alberta.
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  So let's talk about those 2.
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  Let's talk about the federal umbrella after that so that people and then, you know, if
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  necessary, we can drop the link so that people can check their province.
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  Just figure out what what guidelines they have to follow.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, it's hard for all that they all have different word let's say that.
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  They all have different wordings, whether it's, you know, demeaning behavior, showing showing
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  respect, whether it's do not humiliate, do not embarrass, do not What it reasonably no would
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  cause harm?
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  That that's your policy.
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  That's what the legislation says.
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  Wording like that.
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  You have your your international research out there that can give you definitions as well.
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  But I actually break it down to a really simple definition.
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  And you'll see that it fits for any province.
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  So it's it's it's never a one time that's that's one place where our legislation fails.
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  Because harassment and psychological harassment are very different.
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  We can we could be charged with harassment based on one specific insult, right?
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  If I on those protective grounds, but psychological harassment, bullying usually
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  weaves in between those protected grounds It's far more subtle and insidious, so it's never a
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  one time incident.
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  So a variety of negative behaviors tactics, nonverbals, verbals, whether it's emails, text
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  messages, photographs, whatever, a variety of these negative behaviors.
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  Directed towards a specific person or a group of people.
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  Very different from conflict.
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  So it's directed towards a person or a group of people, like I mentioned before, lobbying.
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  With or without conscious intent, We gotta take that part out.
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  You cannot prove intent with or without conscious intent that causes some form of harm.
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  That's as simple as it gets.
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  So look at the the quote death by a 1000 cuts.
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  I changed that to psychological injury by a 1000 psychological insults.
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  That might not might not be the the first three hundred times that you slammed the dormant face
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  or Roll your eyes at me or I caught you gossiping or I caught you lying to me or you
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  accused me of something I didn't do.
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  It might not be the hundred thing that gets me.
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  So that's why we call people too sensitive, you know, but you're not realizing this is a
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  cumulative injury.
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  This is accumulative over time, just like domestic violence, except it's psychological.
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  It might be the 800th one that takes you down Roxanne, might be the 9 to 100th one that takes
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  me down.
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  Eventually, this kind of behavior is gonna take anyone down.
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  The people coming through my door are highly educated, resilient, articulate, strong,
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  dedicated loyal people.
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  So it isn't about a lack of it is about an injury.
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  We've they've been injured.
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  Their resilience is injured.
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  Their self esteem is injured.
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  Their self confidence.
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  Their sense of safety in the world, their identity, it's all injured, cut by cut by cut
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  by cut.
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  Wow.
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  Okay.
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  That that really makes it very clear.
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  So let me let me play devil's advocate for a second.
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  And say it's a merger and acquisition scenario and the manager potentially is under a lot of
• 20:51
  pressure.
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  How does one delineate between The guidelines or guide posts that that leader has to hit, and
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  the pressure that the frontline employee might feel and how, you know, because I'm thinking I
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  I think it becomes blurry at some point, and because you're living in this world, if
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  someone's listening and they're an employee saying, oh my god.
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  I'm I'm going through that, Linda.
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  I can't, you know, how does one start to wonder, is this This is performance based on
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  metrics because one company is modeled another and there's some business objects if they have
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  to hit.
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  Versus this is psychological harassment.
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  Right.
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  Great question.
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  And you're right.
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  It is blurry.
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  And I think people have to understand that you know, I said over a period of time,
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  international research consistently says over 6 months or more.
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  I say 3 months or more, so we have to have a measurement It's not exact, but we have
• 21:52
  separate measurement.
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  If someone is behaving this way towards you for a period of 3 months or more, I think we're
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  safe to say we're looking at potentially a case of psychological harassment.
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  But prior to that, is abrasiveness incability, rudeness, meanness, you know, ostracism, these
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  things happening that that sarcasm, that the joke came under the guise of, you know,
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  whatever, that that just inconsistency, even some of that gaslighting stuff prior to that 3
• 22:24
  months, if you're if you're consistently being poked at, then it is abrasiveness or something
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  like that.
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  So Is it a one time incident?
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  Is it because the person is grieving?
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  Is it because the person has had a car accident suffering in body pain?
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  Are they under a great deal of stress?
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  Certainly, there are factors that can explain the behaviors, but abuse is never going to be
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  okay.
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  You know, abrasiveness, incivility is never going to be okay.
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  If that leader's under a great deal of pressure, that leader now knows that there's a
• 22:54
  risk factor for acting out towards an employee that might get me a a complaint of harshness
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  bra abrasiveness or whatever.
• 23:03
  So we have to have some level of self insight our finger on our own pulse of when have we
• 23:10
  reached our limit that where we might become that person who bites somebody else and we
• 23:15
  might need to reach out and get ourselves an executive coach or a therapist for that matter.
• 23:20
  So if we're struggling, we need to be self accountable Right?
• 23:25
  Yeah.
• 23:26
  And if you're that employee who's being bit several times because the the, leader is
• 23:32
  stressed out understanding that there's reasons going on, you have a right to say, I don't
• 23:37
  deserve that.
• 23:38
  You need to stop and find another way to manage your stress.
• 23:43
  And on ultimately, if it's, you know, if it's the lack of awareness and it comes to the
• 23:51
  readers, attention, that ultimately it's up to the leader to recognize, woah.
• 23:57
  You know, I I just went through the separation or, you know, I'm having some struggles with a
• 24:03
  loss or whatever.
• 24:04
  And we're all human.
• 24:05
  Right?
• 24:05
  You know, gone into the days where we believe relief, you know, professional in that at, you
• 24:11
  know, at the office, you hit the the front door of your home.
• 24:15
  Now we're in such different worlds.
• 24:16
  Whereas when I was in corporate, that was the that was the given line, by the way.
• 24:21
  You forget the professional Roxanne and who will you bring the professional Roxanne to
• 24:25
  work?
• 24:25
  She works 12 hours and she picks up the you know, the personal Roxanne to go home.
• 24:30
  Again, I'm not sure how they thought that was possible, but that was the world that I was
• 24:33
  living in when I was in corporate.
• 24:35
  So I think absolutely, and, you know, with my work, with my new book.
• 24:39
  I talk a lot about responsibility of leaders, and what I call the ROR, which is return our
• 24:45
  relationship, which is to be which ultimately awareness is the biggest umbrella in
• 24:50
  leadership.
• 24:50
  You are leaders have accumulated capacity so they are brought up and and brought into these
• 24:56
  roles.
• 24:56
  And that would that comes a a a huge responsibility, for the fact that you are, you
• 25:01
  know, leading people that have full lives and they're looking to you for guidance.
• 25:08
  And if you're if you're inept or impaired, you know, I don't know if an Ept would be the
• 25:13
  impaired.
• 25:13
  It's your responsibility to get the help to be able to be optimally functioning.
• 25:18
  Oh, there are leaders out there that are in that.
• 25:20
  There are leaders out there that are impaired.
• 25:23
  There are positions that they shouldn't be in.
• 25:26
  And a lot of leaders know that.
• 25:28
  You know, so there's a little bit of imposter syndrome going on.
• 25:30
  Wanna wonder when I'm gonna get caught.
• 25:32
  You know, so we need to do our due diligence for leaders and set them for success, we need
• 25:37
  to put them in positions where they're qualified for.
• 25:39
  And if they're not qualified and we believe in them, then let's train them.
• 25:43
  Let's mentor them.
• 25:44
  Let's monitor them.
• 25:45
  And let's and, you know, confident competent leaders don't harass.
• 25:50
  They're staff.
• 25:52
  Confident competent leaders don't bully their staff.
• 25:55
  You know, so that says it all right there.
• 25:58
  Research shows it's quite a high percentage that is bullying top down.
• 26:03
  So that tells us we have a problem in the leadership area.
• 26:07
  Let's solve that problem.
• 26:09
  Let's make sure we're not hiring our friends because we owe a favor or our sister because we
• 26:13
  owe them a favor.
• 26:15
  Let's watch that nepotism stuff.
• 26:17
  Let's let's follow those policies.
• 26:20
  Absolutely.
• 26:21
  So important.
• 26:22
  This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a two part series.
• 26:26
  Be sure to tune in next week for part 2 so you don't miss out on the amazing content.
• 26:35
  With Roxanne, creating the space for positive healthy change.
• 26:39
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 26:46
  rocksandirhaj.com/blueprint.
• 26:49
  We'll see you next time.
• 26:51
  On authentic living with Roxanne.