Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / Michael Albers Mastering Fractional Work

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Michael Albers Mastering Fractional Work · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

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my guest today is Michael alus some call
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him melus Michael is originally from the
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Netherlands and has been working in
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Silicon Valley companies since the late
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990s where he was at maffy Netscape
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various startups including iny and zy
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and finally Yahoo in his last corporate
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role he ran all of consumer product
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experiences for Verizon media which at
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the time included both Yahoo and AOL
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for the last couple of years Michael has
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been working in advisory and fractional
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capacity and the focus of our
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conversation today is going to be on
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managing the transition from a major
0:41
corporate job and talk about what does
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it mean to do fractional work what are
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the pros and cons of that model Michael
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it is so good to talk to you again thank
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you for joining me thanks James happy to
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be in the deaker show as you can see so
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love thanks for having me
1:00
no excellent now let's get into it tell
1:03
me about your last corporate role and
1:06
then the path you found yourself working
1:09
in a very different model right now yep
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well I ran the consumer product
1:13
organization um at Yahoo or Verizon
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media um effectively effectively the CPO
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I manage both the product and design
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teams uh across all the consumer
1:24
products for Yahoo and AOL both um and
1:28
as Yahoo as you probably know went
1:29
through an acquisition uh with Apollo
1:31
Global Management a PE firm it was a
1:33
little bit clear to me that a there was
1:35
no need for a centralized product role I
1:37
think they were moving to more of a GM
1:39
structure and then B really for me I had
1:43
been working pretty much non-stop for
1:45
almost 30 years um I think the longest
1:47
break I ever had was I know three weeks
1:50
um and it was just time for me to take a
1:51
bit of a break kind of regroup and
1:53
figure out what I wanted to do um the
1:55
other thing is um my son was just
1:58
looking at colleges you know leaving
2:00
high school and so I figured let me
2:01
spend time with him do that while I
2:04
didn't kind of wrap my head head around
2:05
what I want to do um and so I took about
2:08
nine months off and then started
2:10
thinking about um the kinds of things I
2:12
could do and within those nine months or
2:14
or after that um you know I joined a
2:17
board seat of a nonprofit I helped um
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kind of somebody Bridging the Gap
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between entrepreneurs in Europe or the
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Netherlands more specifically in Silicon
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Valley um and started doing kind of
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these kind of advisory coaching you know
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conversations and that actually led into
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opportunities for fractional roles which
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we'll talk more about um and I really
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realized that wow that's actually
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exactly what I'm looking for I want
2:42
something with some flexibility I want
2:45
uh some engagement across obviously tech
2:48
companies um and at the same time um you
2:52
know looking for being able to make an
2:54
impact across different companies
2:55
different projects different efforts um
2:57
and so right now two years and nine
2:59
months later here I am and that's
3:01
essentially what I've been doing for the
3:03
last couple years yeah it's the
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transition you go through I think is
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very common and it's often not talked
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about and so you know let's get into it
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you have talked about the term
3:14
fractional to describe the work model I
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confess that I hadn't really heard that
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term until a couple of years ago and now
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I seem to to hear it all the time I'm
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not sure it's one of those case of like
3:26
you buy a new car and suddenly you start
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seeing that car on the road but I'm
3:30
certainly coming across it tell me what
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does it mean to you and why do you see
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it as a you know as a model that is
3:38
popular right now yeah yeah it it it is
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a relatively recent term as she
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mentioned um you know it's Consulting in
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a way um but in my mind a bit more
3:48
official capacity and so uh and I I
3:51
actually recently wrote a blog post
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literally a couple days ago because I
3:55
got a lot of questions from folks asking
3:56
about what's this fractional work what
3:58
have you been doing you've been doing it
4:00
for some time tell me more about it and
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so you know if you go to my LinkedIn
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profile LinkedIn
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inmb um you can find it there um and I I
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go into a little bit more detail on the
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pros and cons on that but but really
4:12
what it is it's essentially more of an
4:16
inrim uh role for a given project or a
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partial project where you bring all of
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your experience and your skills uh to
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the table but you lead it and so often
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you lead a team often you lead the
4:28
project which is a little different in
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typical Consulting right um and it's you
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know an interim role is something that
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that's full-time right and so whereas
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fractional you could be part-time right
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maybe it's 20 hours a week but you are
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really the CPO in my case or you could
4:44
be the CMO or whatever that may be and
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so it really is an engagement with a
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company um for three six months could be
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a year um which sometimes does or
4:55
doesn't have an end date toin um but it
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is I would say a part-time inm role um
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where you f a need or fill a gap right
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um and so that's really what you do
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that's I think the difference why it's
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coming up now in my mind it's really the
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difference between what happened during
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the pandemic you know we've obviously
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saw the rounds of layoffs we saw
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companies pivoting focusing on key
5:18
priorities so we're we're kind of on the
5:20
tail end of all of that right and so if
5:22
you think about all those layoffs and
5:24
things that happen a I think companies
5:25
are a bit skittish when they hire right
5:28
they're a little more cautious
5:30
you and I are obviously much more senior
5:32
and so I think it's a little daunting or
5:34
or almost uh a little concerning for a
5:36
company that maybe have just come off a
5:38
rough time to hire a senior person
5:41
full-time and so the ability to be able
5:43
to tap into that that that Workforce um
5:46
is it will be really helpful right and I
5:48
think that that really uh will make a
5:50
differ and then secondly as you know we
5:52
have a lot of people that are in
5:53
transition right they are in between
5:55
jobs they're trying to find the next
5:57
thing and so I think with companies
5:59
being kind of in this transitionary
6:02
cautious State trying to figure out what
6:05
they need but yet have needs for
6:07
seasoned leaders and seasoned people to
6:10
come in and then a large Workforce
6:12
that's actually in a state of transition
6:14
themselves right either they're taking
6:16
time off or they're trying to figure out
6:17
what's next or they're they're truly
6:19
looking for their next job I think when
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you match those two together I think you
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actually have fractional work that comes
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that that comes from all of that is it
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fair to say that the model is most
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popular for smaller companies who
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haven't yet reached the scale where they
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can afford an experienced leader but
6:39
need the expertise of someone who who's
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walked the walk yeah actually not not
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necessarily um I think there's a couple
6:47
of companies and the way I think about
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it is it's really a state of transition
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um one is startups right they're just
6:53
starting out um they might have you know
6:55
some limited funding they can bring on a
6:58
senior person full-time yet right and
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but they need help right and they might
7:02
want um some some in my case product
7:05
assistance right and so they're looking
7:06
for senior person to be able to come in
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you know either it's a retainer or
7:11
within a given budget right and they're
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able to tap into that talent to kind of
7:14
help them going right the second one is
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I think a company that's kind of at
7:18
scale um you know they might have raised
7:20
the round they're may be doing a
7:22
strategic pivot right they now need to
7:24
kind of bring that scale to the table
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which again where experience can really
7:27
be a lot of help and then third is
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really I think a company that's that's
7:33
in a turnaround right they they they are
7:35
looking for
7:37
transformation um they are looking to
7:39
kind of you know either establish a team
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or they need a project to to to take off
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um and you know there's various states
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there and then I think the last one I
7:48
realize is there's a gap right the CPO
7:51
left the CMO left right the team is is
7:54
is kind of you know needs guidance they
7:57
need leadership and I think that's the
7:58
difference with fracture is that you
8:00
step in to a leadership role right you
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lead the team you lead the effort um and
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so I think there are a variety of states
8:07
there um or companies need that and so
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you know one of my current clients is a
8:11
thousand employee company they're
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they're a large company but they're in a
8:15
state of transition and I think
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companies in these states of transition
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they're a perfect fit in my mind right
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whether it's early stage or they're
8:22
pivoting or whatever that may be and you
8:25
know in my case right that the previous
8:27
team uh was unfortunately off because
8:30
they got acquired by a PE firm so they
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restructured they cut some costs then
8:34
realized oh we got to know deliver
8:35
against a bunch of these objectives and
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so that's where um uh somebody like
8:40
myself would come in right um lastly
8:43
briefly on that too I think there is an
8:46
opportunity there uh for senior talent
8:48
that is looking for a full-time job to
8:50
come in and you know show you can do the
8:53
job right and so it's kind of a try
8:54
before you buy if if that's what you're
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looking for um and so I think it's
8:58
lowrisk for the company because they
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they're able to kind of predictably
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manage within a budget and I think it's
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an opportunity for those looking for
9:06
employment to kind of come in and say
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like no I I could be your CPO right and
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then if you're obviously doing a great
9:12
job that might evolve and I've certainly
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seen that happen as so it's all over
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yeah yeah playing back what I'm hearing
9:20
from you you know fractional is more
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sort of active leadership than just you
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know traditional advisory or Consulting
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work including potentially having teams
9:30
reporting to you and potentially having
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significant client facing
9:34
responsibilities you and I have a mutual
9:36
friend who has a whole marketing team
9:38
that reports to him even though he's he
9:40
is less than full-time but clearly there
9:42
are challenges to the model um what do
9:45
you see as the biggest challenges to the
9:47
model working effectively yeah
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I exactly as you said right first and
9:53
foremost it's you're putting yourself in
9:55
a in in a interim leadership role right
9:57
and and not full-time so I think that's
9:59
the difference with fractional um a you
10:01
need to have the right mindset right you
10:03
come in knowing that this is likely an
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interim engagement right and so uh that
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is I think important the mindset two is
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you know you have to embrace it as if
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you are the dedicated full-time leader
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for that team for that project for that
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group um and in some case they've been
10:19
struggling right they they might have
10:20
been floundering right they're
10:21
leaderless maybe the CEO stepped in
10:24
right somebody else and you know they
10:26
they obviously need guidance and so the
10:28
challenges that you're ultimately not
10:30
permanent right and so that might be
10:32
unsettling for some of these folks um
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you know I've seen where they're on
10:36
their third manager and you're now the
10:37
other inter manager and that obviously
10:39
paints a picture that there will be
10:40
another person coming right and so that
10:42
that can be tough and so you have to I
10:45
think really test your leadership skills
10:46
and your managerial skills in how do you
10:48
motivate such a team right how do you
10:50
get them kind of moving again right but
10:52
but you do play a very important role in
10:55
that you know you take that manage
10:58
management away from I don't know the
11:00
CEO um and really drive that team um
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towards delivering right and I think
11:05
with experience you can obviously have
11:06
immediate impact there um and it's about
11:09
getting the organization set up as well
11:11
right and so I think part of your role
11:13
might be to build a Future Organization
11:15
right and so you hire for the future and
11:18
permanent CPO right you might hire and
11:20
bring on Talent right and in some cases
11:22
you may even make adjustments to the
11:24
organization and um and you know folks
11:27
that maybe don't aren't delivering or ar
11:30
aren't set up for Success you help with
11:32
that and so I think that's really where
11:33
the difference
11:35
is for those that are making it work
11:38
what are the things that you know are
11:40
key to making the fractional role
11:41
successful you talk about mindset uh
11:45
what are what are the other things that
11:46
you know are important to having the
11:48
fractional experience work yeah I me I
11:50
think experience is a big one right and
11:52
so as I mentioned you're coming with
11:53
that mindset knowing what you're getting
11:54
yourself into um your own leadership
11:57
experience and and track record I think
11:59
is really important um aim for impact
12:02
right and so I think by bringing
12:04
everything you you have right your
12:06
experience your your leadership skills
12:08
your your overall skill sets um having a
12:10
mediate impact is what they're looking
12:12
for right and so you know that means
12:14
then you know have to set up the right
12:15
team the right process you got to drive
12:17
towards the right outcomes uh align
12:20
everybody right and so this is the
12:22
typical thing but you're in a much
12:24
tighter timeline right and so you have
12:26
to keep that in mind um and so I think
12:28
when you establish that and really get
12:30
the Machinery moving like I said
12:32
sometimes they felt stuck or they
12:33
haven't been moving and so they often
12:36
welcome guidance right and Leadership
12:38
and let's go and and some some some
12:40
excitement around that and so I think
12:42
that's that's really an important piece
12:44
to to Think Through um and you know like
12:47
I said some they'll want you to stay in
12:49
a permanent capacity um because if they
12:52
like you and they like how things are
12:53
working that's good and so you have to
12:55
think about what that means um and so I
12:57
think that that's it's really how you
13:00
enter it and knowing kind of your role
13:02
in that and what you can do and what you
13:04
can do um at the same time right it also
13:07
means it's um cyclical right and so you
13:10
know you have to spend a lot of time
13:11
networking building contacts working
13:13
your referrals get the word out there
13:16
right Etc it's like in order to make it
13:18
work you you have to keep at it right
13:20
and you know find the balance of of of
13:23
you know what you need what you're
13:25
looking for as far as you know time
13:26
spend and then um you know Finding the
13:29
next gig when when one runs out
13:32
right I want to get into the pros and
13:35
cons and be more specific about the pros
13:37
and cons relative to a sort of
13:39
traditional full-time corporate role and
13:42
and let's start from the employee side
13:44
for for you as the fractional worker or
13:46
for for others in a similar situation
13:49
what are the pros and cons for the
13:51
worker going into a gig like this y um
13:56
for me right and this is obviously
13:57
speaking from my own experience um
13:59
primarily it's flexibility right I mean
14:01
you're you're Your Own Boss you manage
14:04
your own schedules of course you have
14:05
standups at given times and things like
14:06
that but but you drive the flexibility
14:09
like you commit to okay I can do 20
14:11
hours a week for you right or 10 hours
14:13
right um and you know we talking to Sean
14:15
Qui recently and I was like um if I want
14:18
to eat oysters on Thursday I eat oysters
14:20
on Thursday right I love going up you
14:22
know Northern California and have the
14:24
oysters there right so that's one um I
14:26
love the diversity so I think that's
14:28
really a pro
14:29
um you can have an immediate impact
14:31
right I mean we've done so much I think
14:32
we have so much experience to offer
14:34
certainly startups right um um that's
14:37
one um it's it's income right when
14:40
you're Idol and so if you are in
14:41
transition or you're looking for a job
14:44
um I think that's an important piece and
14:46
so you're obviously putting your skill
14:48
set to use you're actually building up
14:49
your resume in a way um and so I think
14:52
that's an important piece um and I I
14:55
think it's some can lead to a long-term
14:57
uh role right and so obviously with that
15:00
you're managing and leading a team right
15:02
you're working in different industry
15:04
different Tech areas different segments
15:07
um you're building out your network your
15:08
reputation right I think there's a lot
15:10
of Pros right there um including and I I
15:12
think we'll talk about that short a
15:14
little bit as well is you know getting
15:17
your hands dirty right you're working on
15:18
all these different things you're honing
15:19
a lot of your skills that that you might
15:21
not have touched for for sometime right
15:23
on the flip side as I mentioned it takes
15:26
a lot of work right you you do need to
15:27
keep networking you do need to work on
15:29
your clients you do need to have the
15:31
coffees and the zoom calls and you know
15:33
all that conversation right work can be
15:35
unpredictable right from times like I I
15:38
I will feel like I will have a full-time
15:40
job if not more and then two weeks later
15:42
it's like okay it's it's Cricket so it's
15:44
downtime and that's okay right you have
15:46
to be comfortable with that um and so uh
15:50
you know I I think that those are some
15:51
some things to Think Through the down
15:53
time I use obviously to kind of then
15:54
figure out you know other other things
15:57
to to hone in on or personal time or
15:59
whatever I think a big one for many is
16:01
like there's no health care and so you
16:03
know you're not employed you're not
16:05
getting benefits right and so I pay for
16:07
my own health care for example um now as
16:10
a self-employed person I can write that
16:13
off right from a tax perspective and so
16:15
that's there's benefits of that side of
16:17
it um and you know o over time you'll
16:21
have to think about how somebody looks
16:22
at that right if you're doing this like
16:23
me for almost two years right do do
16:27
people frown upon that or not right he
16:29
hasn't been in his full-time job or not
16:31
right I don't know to be honest it
16:32
hasn't in my mind been an issue
16:34
necessarily um and then you know like I
16:37
said it's short-term in nature you get
16:39
through a project things are moving and
16:41
then at that point you want to see it
16:44
through fruition sometimes that doesn't
16:46
always happen right and so um and you
16:48
have to be comfortable with that you
16:49
know I don't mind getting something
16:51
going and then handing it off to
16:53
somebody so thank you for that and you
16:57
know obviously that's your experience as
16:59
someone who's been doing fractional put
17:01
yourself in the employer shoes if you
17:03
can for a moment and and talk me through
17:05
some of the same pros and cons from
17:07
their perspective of working with
17:09
someone who is fractional rather than
17:11
full-time yep um as I mentioned before
17:15
right I think it gives a company the
17:17
ability to try you before buying right
17:20
and so instead of a permanent hire or
17:22
they might not have the budget for it um
17:24
you know they can obviously engage
17:25
somebody that has experience and and and
17:27
brings a lot of skills to the table
17:30
right and with that it's lower costs
17:31
right they don't pay stock salary
17:33
benefits right and so I think that's a
17:34
benefit for the company um they often
17:37
have a gap right in immediate need like
17:39
somebody left or you know the project is
17:41
getting a lot of pressure but they don't
17:43
have people that kind of lead it and see
17:45
it through and so I think that's
17:46
beneficial for them versus continue to
17:48
interview or finding that unicorn person
17:50
that they're looking for right um I
17:53
think um they they get access through a
17:56
lot of experience and skills that they
17:57
might not otherwise be be able to afford
17:59
say or be able to tap into um you know I
18:02
think often it's much more seasoned
18:04
people that that that get them traction
18:06
um an immediate impact right I mean
18:08
they're looking for like okay I have a
18:10
deadline I gotta deliver X right by six
18:13
months from now my God how am I going to
18:14
do that I I haven't even interviewed
18:16
enough people and so the rapid and
18:18
immediate impact where they know things
18:21
are will get done without very little
18:23
ramp up or lead time I think is gives
18:25
them a lot of comfort um and then as I
18:27
mentioned right a big
18:29
difference with fractional workers are
18:31
that they lead the team and so you if
18:33
you have a gap right the cpos say left
18:36
um right that's Comfort right they're
18:38
like okay I trust you can lead and
18:40
manage the team right obviously through
18:42
conversations and so that that's a big
18:44
different there um the con is that you
18:46
know obviously you're bringing somebody
18:47
in kind of in an interim capacity and so
18:50
you know you know you need a long-term
18:52
solution right and so um and as I
18:56
mentioned it could be disruptive to the
18:57
existing team knowing bringing somebody
18:59
in again in the interim um so in that
19:02
respect I think it's a bit more
19:04
challenging from a cultural perspective
19:06
um I think also it can become cost
19:09
prohibitive right and so depending on
19:11
your hourly raid right I mean and
19:13
depending on how much you work six
19:15
months nine months in they're like okay
19:17
now now it's cost will add up right and
19:19
and so uh but I do think again it helps
19:22
some bootstrap a bit um and then you
19:25
know
19:27
again you you need need to Ram someone
19:29
up right and on the team the tech the
19:31
product um uh and so which would
19:34
otherwise be somewhat short term um and
19:38
you know I think the other side of it is
19:40
that there's there's very clear pressure
19:43
um and often deliverables are defined
19:44
and so that that's really an important
19:46
piece as part of that and it's TI to
19:48
your contract right and so it's very
19:50
clear up front but I do think there's um
19:53
more benefits for a company than there
19:56
aren't okay um one of the things I want
19:59
to talk about is the benefit of getting
20:02
back involved in direct work and doing
20:05
the work and one of the things you and I
20:07
talked about when we spoke a few weeks
20:09
ago we were reconnecting was as you
20:12
become more senior in most companies you
20:14
spend more and more time managing your
20:17
team managing the relationships with
20:19
those around you and you don't actually
20:22
have very much time doing Hands-On work
20:26
and over the last year I've enjoyed
20:28
doing work product whether it's editing
20:31
a video Consulting on projects directly
20:34
creating the materials have you had the
20:37
same experience of sort of enjoying
20:40
getting back involved in the day-to-day
20:43
work yeah I honestly this is probably
20:45
the part I enjoyed the most um to be
20:47
honest um my my last true corporate role
20:50
it was just operational I was in
20:51
meetings all day I was in various
20:54
sessions I was in discussions I I felt
20:56
so far removed from product to be honest
20:58
onest and getting my hands dirty um when
21:01
I did have the various you know design
21:02
reviews or product meetings that was it
21:05
felt the best right and so not only are
21:08
my clients in the projects pretty
21:10
diverse which to me keeps it just
21:11
interesting right um and I can see the
21:13
impact happen um I also enjoy actually
21:16
having to dive in and get your hands
21:18
dirty right sometimes you don't have the
21:20
resources you typically would have and
21:22
so you know you kind of have to roll up
21:24
the sleeves which I think is great um
21:26
and I really enjoy right and so you know
21:28
for example my last client um where I
21:31
was driving you know helping them with
21:33
their rebranding of their company the
21:35
website right a bunch of digital efforts
21:38
um you know at times I was doing the the
21:40
Work Direct work right I was literally
21:43
editing and creating content you know I
21:45
was um you know testing the website
21:47
making sure that worked I was making
21:49
sure um uh you know things look good I
21:51
was using my CSS skills which I had to
21:53
dust off right and so I love it right
21:56
it's really really nice to to kind of do
21:58
that um and I think part of it is I kind
22:00
of missed that times being an individual
22:02
contributor right and so yes if you
22:03
manage a team that's different but at
22:05
times you you do operate as as an
22:07
individual contributor managing partners
22:09
and others um I don't know I like it and
22:12
and so I I really um enjoy that part um
22:16
and again it might not be for everybody
22:18
um but it's what I do enjoy is that it's
22:21
it's satisfying you know it's diverse I
22:25
get to do a lot of different things and
22:26
frankly I feel like I'm honing my skill
22:28
more than than I did in a corporate job
22:30
right it's I have to tap into lots of
22:32
different pieces right um and so uh I I
22:36
enjoy that and so I agree it's a lot of
22:38
fun I think it can be really
22:40
rewarding Michael thank you so much for
22:43
taking the time to talk about this as I
22:45
said at the start uh you and I have sort
22:48
of found ourselves in situations that
22:50
are so different than how we were
22:52
working a couple of years ago and it's a
22:56
little disconcerting it's when you used
22:58
to the structure of a corporate
22:59
environment but I think clearly you and
23:01
I are both enjoying how we're spending
23:03
our dayto days and I hope there's some
23:06
lessons for others out there I certainly
23:09
when I left my last corporate job end up
23:11
just reaching out to about 50 different
23:13
people who sort of at the same life
23:15
stage is us and it is incredibly good to
23:17
know there is a community of people out
23:19
there who can sort of help think through
23:21
some of the the challenges that you face
23:24
and I I genuinely hope that this uh
23:26
material is useful to others and similar
23:29
life stages to you and I so thank you so
23:31
much I will link to the newsletter that
23:34
you referenced uh the LinkedIn newslet
23:36
on fractional is there any other last
23:39
thoughts that you'd like to leave us
23:40
with no thanks for having me you know I
23:42
love this stuff um I I'd say look if you
23:45
are at a company in transition and
23:48
you're looking for folks think about
23:49
your network right the fractional
23:50
workers even folks that that might be in
23:52
between jobs because you know them you
23:54
know their background one and on the
23:56
flip side if you're looking for work I
23:57
think it's a great way to um you know
24:00
stay active and do stuff versus you know
24:02
spending your day in LinkedIn and
24:04
applying to jobs and living the world of
24:06
resumes and terrible uploading tools so
24:09
um you know I think this might be a way
24:11
to for it's a win it can be a win-win so
24:14
thanks for having me hopefully it helps
24:16
thank you so much have a good rest of
24:17
your day bye yeah you too thanks