Latest / Politics Between Us / Mills vs. Platner, Who’s the Real Rural Candidate? — ‘Mud Season’ Episode 2

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Mills vs. Platner, Who’s the Real Rural Candidate? — ‘Mud Season’ Episode 2 · Politics Between Us

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, everyone.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's Allison.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here with Luca.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Politics Between Us.
• 0:07
  This is episode two of Mud Season,
• 0:10
  where we are continuing our conversation about the U.S.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: Senate primary here in Maine.
• 0:15
  Today,
• 0:15
  we are joined by Professor of Government at Colby College,
• 0:19
  Nicholas Jacobs.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nick is a writer and a thinker about rural politics and rural voting.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's exactly what we want to talk to Nick about today.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Nick is a very prolific writer.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's written lots of books and a lot of articles,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: but you and I are a little bit more article people,
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: given our lifestyle and timeframe.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: But after 2016,
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: there was this idea that rural America,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: everyone there was white,
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: they were racist,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: they were angry.
• 0:52
  And he has this whole kind of set of articles and arguments
• 0:56
  countering that
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: narrative,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: making a more nuanced case for
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: what is actually going on in rural America and with rural voters.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really excited to talk to him about like kind of authenticity.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: we have this race between Graham Platner,
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: who's from Hancock County down East Maine and Janet Mills,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: who's from Farmington in Franklin County,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: not far from where I grew up.
• 1:19
  And they're both kind of trying to present themselves as the
• 1:22
  authentic rural candidate.
• 1:24
  So I think it will be kind of interesting to hear from Nick
• 1:26
  about like who's
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: actually going to succeed in claiming that mantle.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Something that you and I have talked about a fair amount.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, totally.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think about that a lot.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think about that.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: We talk about gender a lot,
• 1:37
  but I certainly think this issue of rural identity and who gets
• 1:40
  to be rural.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Can't wait to hear what he says about it.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one big B.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the other one is I want to talk to him about emotions in politics,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: which is a favorite topic of you and I.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're all about the somatics.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Easy there.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Easy.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I am all about the semantics.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: It matters.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: What do you mean?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 2:01
  I have a witchy sister and a somewhat witchy mom,
• 2:05
  so I'm all into somatics too.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my God, you did not just say that.
• 2:09
  So now you're going to say that anyone who's actually caring
• 2:11
  about the body is a witch?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't we need to define somatics for the audience?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: No, because I can barely define it.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: No, somatics, it's like the body is telling us, right?
• 2:24
  We have been a culture that's all about the mind and actually
• 2:26
  the body has more to say.
• 2:28
  And if we're not listening to the body,
• 2:29
  we're missing an entire reaction.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So let me just, last thought, and then you can cut me off.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think we'd ask Nick this,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: but in politics,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: I do think so much of it is about how a candidate makes you feel,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: not just what's happening in your mind,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: but how do they make you feel.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I like talking to you about somatics,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: but at some point I'm like,
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: OK,
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: so now we're just like talking about how the candidate smells.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is ridiculous.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's turn to our talk with Nick.
• 2:56
  I think it's time to bring him in before I take us down any
• 2:58
  more rabbit holes.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're totally off the rails here.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Let's hit it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: Let's bring him in.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dig in.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: Nick, welcome.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: We're so happy you're here.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Nick.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to have you here.
• 3:20
  Alison and I have been doing a lot of reading about your work
• 3:23
  over the past couple
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: weeks,
• 3:25
  and I think we both really love your perspective on rural
• 3:29
  politics and these
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: issues.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 3:32
  one thing that struck me as pretty unique about your research
• 3:35
  is that you seem to
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: have some sort of personal connection to the subject matter.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so like, why do rural issues matter so much to you?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that the focus of your academic research?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Only the easy questions on this podcast, huh?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I know the answer to that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's some obvious answers to that.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've made the choice to live in a rural community, raise my family.
• 4:00
  In a rural community,
• 4:01
  I feel a certain affinity for the lifestyle,
• 4:05
  for my neighbors.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've been writing about rural politics since before Donald Trump.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of the connection to place,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: and we can talk a little bit more about what I mean by that,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: a place-based identity,
• 4:18
  a political worldview that is local and that is filtered
• 4:23
  through deep context.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: intellectual interest has always fascinated me.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, it is personal to me.
• 4:33
  I do think I try the best I can to approach the subject as
• 4:39
  objectively as I can.
• 4:42
  Sometimes people read my work and think that I'm apologizing
• 4:47
  for certain voters or
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: trying to excuse behaviors that they...
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: find undesirable, and I'm not.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's lots of bad stuff that happens in rural areas.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to offer a different perspective, I guess.
• 5:05
  I think it's so interesting in our culture that we sort of
• 5:08
  disconnect the personal
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: from being objective,
• 5:12
  because I really do think that the personal can often drive a
• 5:16
  lot of our best work.
• 5:17
  And so I think we can both have a personal stake in something
• 5:21
  and be objective.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: And what I hear you saying,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: and from knowing you as a colleague,
• 5:26
  I love how you focus on the connective tissue between
• 5:30
  communities and sort of like
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: thinking about
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: how our actions impact each other.
• 5:36
  So I'm projecting my own view of like your psyche right now and
• 5:39
  why this is
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: important to you,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: which is so classic me to do to you,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: as we know.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 5:45
  And I hate to give the sort of academic answer like still on
• 5:49
  this big question
• 5:50
  about the relationship between objective analysis and the
• 5:53
  personal stakes.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very much of mixed minds.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 5:57
  so if we think about how this plays out in the study of racial
• 6:00
  politics or gender
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: politics,
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: my discipline,
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: political science,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: the quote unquote canonical works about black politics,
• 6:11
  the quote unquote canonical works about gender politics are
• 6:15
  written by old white
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: men for a hundred years,
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 6:19
  And like obviously frames shift and the perspective gets more,
• 6:26
  approaches truth.
• 6:27
  when people that have a personal stake in that subject matter
• 6:32
  begin to be the
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: scholars in that matter,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 6:34
  When we have black scholars studying black politics or women
• 6:38
  studying gender
• 6:40
  politics or different sexual orientations discussing that
• 6:44
  aspect of politics.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And like,
• 6:46
  I think that there's something powerfully true about that in
• 6:49
  the case of rural
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: politics as well.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: both at a pragmatic level.
• 6:54
  So a lot of my research is done through survey instrumentation,
• 6:58
  just asking people questions.
• 7:00
  And it's amazing how many questions that exist in the survey
• 7:05
  world that political
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: scientists who's like,
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: just don't make sense to rural people.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're just like, what are you talking about?
• 7:12
  But then also,
• 7:13
  I think I don't know how to articulate it all that well or all
• 7:17
  that quickly.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I could see what I see unless I lived it.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's aspects of my writing that when I'm driving through the
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: countryside,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: when I'm driving on my way to work and like,
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: it has happened.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting on my tractor and I'm just like, oh, that's what I'm missing.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if I was living at a different space,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: if I was working in my community with different people,
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have seen it that way.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So Nick, I want to talk a little bit about your work.
• 8:00
  You wrote this article back in 2020 for Politico magazine
• 8:04
  entitled What Liberals
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Get Wrong About White Rural Rage,
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Almost Everything.
• 8:11
  And it has a really powerful argument about delineating between
• 8:14
  this idea of
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: resentment and this idea of rage.
• 8:17
  And there's this one quote I want to read back to you because I
• 8:20
  think it gets at
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: the heart of what we're going to talk about with you today.
• 8:25
  It goes,
• 8:25
  rage implies irrationality,
• 8:27
  anger that is unjustified and out of proportion.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can't talk to someone who is enraged.
• 8:32
  Resentment is rational,
• 8:34
  a reaction based on some sort of negative experience.
• 8:37
  And so you start to set up this kind of contrast between rage
• 8:40
  and what it seems
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: like you're actually seeing in these communities,
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: which is resentment.
• 8:46
  Can you kind of like parse out that distinction a little bit
• 8:49
  more for us and help
• 8:50
  us understand why that distinction is so important for getting
• 8:55
  to like a real and
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: more nuanced understanding of rural communities?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the question.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I go to my real lived experience,
• 9:05
  which is as the father of two young boys who can be quite
• 9:10
  irrational most of the
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: time,
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think we know this to be true.
• 9:15
  We probably know that to be truer than anything we know about
• 9:17
  how to live and
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: conduct politics,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cerebral development sort of stuff.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's times in the day when they are enraged.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can't talk to them.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing you say will work.
• 9:31
  And so what do you do is you sort of pause and you try to get
• 9:35
  them to calm down or
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: like you don't engage.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: My wonderful wife taught me that.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not actually really good at doing it.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's what rage is.
• 9:44
  That's what rage is as an emotion and that's the response that
• 9:47
  it should demand.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a response that is not acceptable in our politics,
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: to just cast off a block of voters,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: to just simply say that they no longer matter,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: that they can't be won over.
• 10:04
  My interpretation of a segment of the left's response to 2016
• 10:08
  is that is what they
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: were saying,
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: is we're irredeemable people.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: They had their chance
• 10:15
  And instead of thanking us for the goodies of Obamacare and
• 10:20
  massive subsidies for,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: in the farm bill,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I interpreted many on the left to be saying, stop engaging.
• 10:29
  And I hold a fundamentally different view of how we should
• 10:34
  think about politics and
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: conduct politics.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So resentment stands in contrast.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm of many minds of whether that's the right word to use.
• 10:46
  I think we lack a sophisticated vocabulary for really dealing
• 10:50
  with a whole lot of
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: emotions and a whole lot of perspectives in politics.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: But resentment is a story that people tell themselves.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's a story that makes sense.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a story about neglect.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a story about being pushed on the sidelines of society.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's a story of nobody's looking out for us.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that story makes sense.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And to the extent that that's a quote-unquote rational response,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: that's very different from just rage or rebellion or anger.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Nick,
• 11:23
  that I took from your article was you argued that just
• 11:28
  flattening rural voters as
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: just being like their rage was fueled by racism,
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think is really important.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because the thing that I think a lot about is...
• 11:38
  how often liberals like to point to some other group to say
• 11:44
  they're racist in a way
• 11:46
  that it kind of pushes down the fact that there's racism
• 11:49
  throughout our country,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: As you make the point, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like there aren't racist voters in urban areas.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so it always seems like a little bit of way of trying to get,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: like as if it's an us versus them.
• 12:00
  And so I'm really interested in your thoughts on how racism
• 12:04
  gets played out in this
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: conversation.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I would begin with a quick point of clarification.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And in a very myopic sense,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: this is where the debate between rage and resentment actually begins,
• 12:21
  is I think resentment or rural resentment or rural grievance is
• 12:25
  very different from
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: racial resentment or white identity politics or racial animus.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: In suggesting that they are distinct concepts,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: it does not mean that there is no racism in rural communities.
• 12:43
  I think there's a lot of politics and political conversations
• 12:47
  that take place in
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: rural communities across the country about immigration.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: about welfare,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: redistributive politics,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: about the size of government in general,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: about specific candidates,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: about the legacy of Obama that end and begin with the single point of,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: boy,
• 13:05
  wouldn't the world be better if it was just a bunch of white
• 13:07
  people in our country?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's there.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: To suggest,
• 13:14
  as I do think a lot of the political diagnoses did in the
• 13:18
  aftermath of Donald
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Trump's election in 2016,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: that it is somehow uniquely confined to rural communities.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, first is just empirically laughable.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: We haven't gotten to this wonderful definitional point.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is rural?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: by many,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: many different measures,
• 13:39
  only about 20 percent of the American population lives in a
• 13:42
  rural community.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so if every one of them was a dirtbag racist, you know, I don't know.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that would mean for the racial politics in the country,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: but that would be a weird phenomenon.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:56
  What I love about what you're saying is it picks up on a thing
• 13:59
  that I struggle with.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like the analysis of white rural and then tying it to racism both
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: under-represents and over-represents.
• 14:07
  My position is that structural racism exists in every
• 14:11
  community,
• 14:11
  in every part of our country.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: It has been here before the country was founded and it is still with us.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: So to suggest that we can just say,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: it's the rural folks,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: or we can just suggest it's the southern folks,
• 14:24
  that to me is just an excuse and a way of not having to deal
• 14:28
  with structural
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: problems.
• 14:29
  So it's not to suggest that there isn't racism in rural
• 14:32
  communities because there's
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: racism in every community.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: So let's not use that as an excuse to not talk about race.
• 14:38
  I think let's not use it as an excuse to simplify prejudice or
• 14:45
  systematic racism
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: into those terms and end it over and say,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: we said it.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have to do anything about it.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: We discussed systematic racism today.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Check.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Check.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: so here we are,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: we're eventually going to be talking about Maine,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: the whitest state in the country.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about rural politics in which 75% of rural Americans,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: by the census estimates,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: are white alone.
• 15:14
  So it actually is a rapidly diversifying part of our country,
• 15:17
  but still overwhelmingly white.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does systematic racism look like there?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: some might argue,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: and rural sociologists indeed do,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: there's aspects of it that look quite similar to how certain systems of
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: disadvantage and oppression work in other communities.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're born into a family in poverty,
• 15:43
  the likelihood that you will grow up or be an adult in poverty
• 15:47
  is similar if you're
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: in some parts of deep rural America,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: as it is in the inner city.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you talk about access to public resources or,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: the vitality of your public schools,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: your ability to get health care,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: you face similar disadvantages.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at the infant mortality rate or maternal mortality rate,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: there's aspects of rural America that look strikingly similar.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I often wonder, like, why don't we talk about that
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: those points of commonality,
• 16:25
  and why don't we try and figure out who's benefiting from that
• 16:29
  status quo across
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: space,
• 16:32
  rather than simply saying the reason that those exist is
• 16:35
  because those people that
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: don't have that,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Black people.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: You're speaking my language.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, right, how are we divided when we have so much commonality?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Nick,
• 16:53
  we've gotten a kind of outline of this argument you made at
• 16:56
  like a national level,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: but we want to take it to Maine now.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we have this high profile U.S.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Senate race here.
• 17:05
  And the Democratic primary for that seat is getting a lot of
• 17:08
  attention between
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: current governor Janet Mills and newcomer to politics Graham Plattner.
• 17:15
  And I think there are a lot of lessons in your work for these
• 17:21
  candidates.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: The rural vote in Maine is really important.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is one of only four states in the country that is only one of,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think I read somewhere.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's his research.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe in an article by Professor Jacobs.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:36
  That Maine is one of only four states in the country that has a
• 17:40
  majority rural people,
• 17:41
  right?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so the rural vote clearly matters a lot here.
• 17:45
  So if you are working on the Janet Mills campaign or the Graham
• 17:48
  Plattner campaign,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: what are you telling them to be thinking about?
• 17:53
  Let me back up a second because I think in that segue there's
• 17:57
  an important lesson
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: that I always feel compelled to add a little bit.
• 18:01
  It's a huge tension in my work and I know that I have not
• 18:07
  adequately sorted it out.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about the rural urban divide and like, here's the thing.
• 18:13
  I think the last place in this country that you would hear the
• 18:16
  words rural voter is
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: in a rural community.
• 18:21
  The reason I think that to be true is that a lot of the sense
• 18:25
  of being rural,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: that at least we can see at a national level and see through things like
• 18:31
  vote returns or responses on national surveys,
• 18:36
  it's deeply formed by local context.
• 18:40
  I'm very lucky and fortunate that I get to travel to a lot of
• 18:43
  different rural
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: communities in my work.
• 18:46
  And there's a similarity to the stories you hear,
• 18:49
  but it's always very different.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we focus on a state like Maine,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: we can use these broader concepts to make sense of patterns.
• 19:01
  while also recognizing that I think Maine is this wonderfully
• 19:05
  weird place.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird in part because a sense of being from Maine is being rural.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Most people,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: if you were to do a survey of Maine,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: most people in Maine say,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I live in a rural community.
• 19:22
  that means very different things depending on where you are in
• 19:25
  the state.
• 19:26
  And that's true at a national level,
• 19:28
  but that chasm is even truer,
• 19:30
  I think,
• 19:30
  in Maine.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: I still think there's this question of what is a candidate...
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: that is authentic in Maine, right?
• 19:38
  We actually have two candidates that come from very rural
• 19:41
  backgrounds,
• 19:42
  right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: You've got Governor Mills,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: who's multi-generation from Farmington,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: Maine,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: like very,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: rural.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: You've got the same for Graham Plattner.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: He's living in Hancock County.
• 19:52
  You know,
• 19:52
  so you have these two candidates who are,
• 19:55
  you know,
• 19:55
  would fit the bill of rural.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so the question is who will resonate with rural voters?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: To me, there's sort of two interesting things that come out there.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: The first is the use of the word authenticity.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's really perplexing about that word,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: who's the more authentic candidate,
• 20:16
  is I would argue that the most authentic candidate to be
• 20:20
  successful in rural
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: America is like the eighth grader's caricature of urbaneness,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Donald Trump.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: Fascinating.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who is the least rural person you know?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: it's Donald Trump who does the best in rural area ever.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the obnoxious academic.
• 20:39
  Like I go all the way back to the beginning and ain't nobody
• 20:43
  does better than like Mr.
• 20:45
  Big time.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Put my name on the side of a helicopter and a big sky rise.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not even going to pretend to know what Carhartt is.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that proves my point about people's complexities.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 20:58
  And maybe about how the way to understand rural identity isn't
• 21:03
  just to be better at
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: playing identity politics.
• 21:07
  I think that's how Democrats for years have thought that they
• 21:09
  would win over rural voters.
• 21:10
  It makes you laugh when you think about the Harris-Walls
• 21:14
  campaign coming out with a
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: camo hat and orange lettering,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: which of course became very popular with gay men in Brooklyn.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, but I don't think that's going to help you.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Only time I saw that hat in Maine was at the Portland airport.
• 21:28
  exactly oh yeah oh yeah i put my name on a camo hat and we're
• 21:33
  gonna win over them
• 21:34
  that's that's what they're awake for you know the democrats
• 21:38
  just couldn't support
• 21:38
  us because they didn't have our merch when they went out and
• 21:41
  shop shit in the woods
• 21:43
  i love it oh god so does authentically rural mean i if donald
• 21:50
  trump can be
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: quote-unquote authentic
• 21:52
  The second thing I'll say,
• 21:54
  it relates back to this,
• 21:57
  to be rural,
• 21:57
  does that just mean to be mad?
• 22:00
  Because I kind of got into it with a number of rural
• 22:04
  progressive organizations that
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel comfortable sharing on air.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: when Graham Plattner announced,
• 22:11
  I got a lot of phone calls from people that I had interviewed
• 22:14
  and are in these
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: circles.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like, it struck me as interesting because
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: that he was their guy instantly.
• 22:24
  And I thought about Janet Mills,
• 22:28
  who has spent a career fighting for arguably rural communities.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: To be honest,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I thought about Susan Collins,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: who wins handedly rural Maine,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: brings home billions of dollars.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: We can get into policy arguments,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: oh yeah,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I got that bill because she cut a billion dollars.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 22:48
  why was it so instantaneous that he is the savior of rural
• 22:55
  Maine that they've all
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: been waiting for?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't help but think.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: that even amongst rural progressive advocacy groups,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: there was this simplification,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: a flattening of the rural perspective,
• 23:10
  that the only thing that people in the boonies were waiting for
• 23:15
  was a gruff,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: rough and tumble oysterman to come in and create a movement.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but I don't know.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to quote you in response here.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, shit.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like that.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you have this piece in Unheard,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: and you say something like,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: rural communities are often animated not by reflexive anger,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: but by pride in rural living,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: a sense of communal belonging,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: and a shared fate.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:45
  And that,
• 23:46
  to me,
• 23:46
  I was like,
• 23:47
  okay,
• 23:47
  that sounds,
• 23:48
  I hear Graham Plattner there.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 23:50
  he is often talking about this idea that the fabric of our
• 23:53
  communities is being
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: ripped apart.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I hear that language a lot in his speeches and his campaign launch.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, like, help me understand if...
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you think that is tracking something there?
• 24:05
  I think there are aspects of his message that are quite clearly
• 24:10
  unapologetically rural.
• 24:13
  And a sense that what does the future of rural look like isn't
• 24:17
  anybody else's to define.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: We can be our community and we can remain our community.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need to revitalize, redevelop, transform.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: We can stay rural.
• 24:32
  Well,
• 24:33
  I mean,
• 24:33
  I think it's interesting to me to think about place,
• 24:37
  right?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: The politics of place, which is a lot of what your work is on.
• 24:40
  And thinking about how much,
• 24:44
  like this race is getting so much national coverage,
• 24:46
  right?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: We've got every paper,
• 24:48
  every magazine comes here to do mostly a profile on Plattner
• 24:51
  because they're so
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: intrigued by him.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there's so much they're missing.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, one thing that really struck Luke and I
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: And of course,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: he hears it even more being in Brooklyn,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: New York,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: rather than,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Brooklyn,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: Maine,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: which is obviously a rural community,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: that this idea of a harbormaster,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: A harbormaster is actually a key,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: there was this lot of making fun of like,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: the only office you've held is harbormaster.
• 25:15
  But that misunderstands actually the connective tissue in rural
• 25:18
  communities.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because you're seeing a lot of turnout to his town halls,
• 25:21
  you're seeing a lot of turnout of more sort of older voters
• 25:24
  that you wouldn't
• 25:24
  necessarily expect to be gravitating towards a sort of young
• 25:28
  sort of firebrand
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: progressive.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: So what's the national coverage missing?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Is it that understanding of sense of place or something else?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 25:35
  I think that's the tension that Luca rightly called me out on
• 25:38
  with some of my
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: skepticism,
• 25:40
  that there's aspects of his playbook that are clearly picking
• 25:43
  up on what I'm asking
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: for.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what the hell?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, you know, like most things, there's two sides of it.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: unsurprisingly,
• 25:52
  there's a reason why Luca gravitated towards that aspect of the
• 25:56
  campaign and
• 25:58
  and the deep-rootedness of the language and his style and his
• 26:03
  message about what it
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: means to save our community.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the national framing,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: which is like,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: this is the Bernie Sanders acolyte,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: the next wave of economic populism,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is the term we would use to describe it.
• 26:20
  Left-wing,
• 26:21
  you know,
• 26:22
  Graham Plattner is the Dan Osborne,
• 26:24
  is Mamdani,
• 26:25
  you know,
• 26:26
  is...
• 26:27
  He's just a little bit more of a stylized version of a big
• 26:32
  national movement.
• 26:34
  I don't think the word oligarchy was spoken much in the small
• 26:38
  towns before Graham
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Plattner came around,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: and that word does have a national...
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: framing device around it is,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: it is a word that is been tested by the consultants is a word that is,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: been put into our political discourse by national frames.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: So how that plays out, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like to get to your idea of the harbormaster,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: like to me,
• 27:04
  the thing that resonates most about his harbormaster story is
• 27:08
  he reluctantly took
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: it on because you have to have one.
• 27:14
  And the community is in such disrepair and civic life is so
• 27:20
  torn apart that
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: nobody's stepping up.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have a harbormaster in order for fishermen to go out.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he stepped up.
• 27:30
  I love that because that's actually a slightly different
• 27:32
  perspective on it than
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Allison and I took.
• 27:34
  And I think we were kind of thinking more about the physical
• 27:37
  aspect that he had to
• 27:38
  dive to fix people's moorings and putting in the physical work
• 27:42
  for your community.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it did lead Allison and I to think that...
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: The Democratic Party instead of,
• 27:48
  or what they should be doing is going out and looking for the
• 27:51
  equivalent of the
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Harbormaster in every community.
• 27:53
  We wanted to start a search firm called Harbormaster Politics
• 27:57
  or whatever.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: So Luca always wants to talk about Graham Plattner.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's all he really wants to talk about.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: So let's also...
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: I want to talk about Janet Mills.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: This is a woman who is, this is who she is.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's no surprises for better or worse, right?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know what you're going to get.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: And she is super authentic in who she is.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it just doesn't seem to be landing the same way.
• 28:20
  I mean,
• 28:21
  she has fought for these rural communities throughout her
• 28:25
  career,
• 28:25
  right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I do think
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: despite all the things you're saying,
• 28:29
  there's something about Graham being portrayed because he
• 28:32
  throws a kettlebell,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: because he's gruff,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: like he's a harbormaster,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: like he's the true rural candidate.
• 28:38
  And I think that really minimizes the incredible connection
• 28:43
  that Janet has,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: authentic connection to the real lived experience of rural communities.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, do you have a sense of, am I off in that?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, am I misreading like how they're portraying her?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: know this,
• 28:55
  and this is why I was so surprised that every rural organizer
• 29:00
  that I think I've
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: interviewed or have talked with over the last six,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: seven years was just like immediately said,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Graham Plattner's our guy.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: But why?
• 29:11
  Why is this other candidate who has spent a career fighting for
• 29:15
  this stuff?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it wasn't a policy disagreement.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't an ideological disagreement.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this other candidate that's done that?
• 29:22
  Not even like,
• 29:22
  you didn't even care about this race until Mr.
• 29:28
  Worrell steps up to the plate.
• 29:31
  There's an aspect of this just to like introduce some other
• 29:35
  variables to the mix.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can old people be authentic anymore?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, Bernie feels authentic to people.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: But what I want to ask, does Janet Mills represent the status quo?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: to the extent that I think age and the status quo are deeply intertwined,
• 29:55
  but the status quo representation is like this new thing to the
• 30:00
  authenticity
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: question.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:03
  And I guess we're all going to sit here and wait until the
• 30:07
  votes are returned.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 30:09
  does it matter that you spent a career pushing on that rock and
• 30:14
  unsuccessfully to a
• 30:15
  large degree if many people don't feel like their material
• 30:19
  situation or the
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: vitality of their community has increased under your watch?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Does it matter if you're authentically rural?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're authentically a part of the problem.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 30:32
  I'm very struck by the,
• 30:35
  God,
• 30:35
  I can't believe I'm saying this,
• 30:36
  the vibes of politics right now.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you think about the,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: in both Janet,
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: the case of Janet and Graham,
• 30:43
  they're tapping into something that I'm going to give Luca full
• 30:45
  credit for.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: He wrote in Substack this idea that actually the voters right now,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: they don't want to have a beer with you.
• 30:51
  What they want to know is that you'll stand up for them and you
• 30:53
  have their back.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: And you think about when Janet
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think without even a thought, stood up to Trump, right?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: In that moment, right?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: In the Oval Office, right?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: Or I don't know where they were actually were.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: But when she stood up to Trump, she did not hesitate.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: Unlike so many politicians,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: like she stood up and you watched,
• 31:12
  that was the moment that everyone started talking about
• 31:15
  actually trying to pull her
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: from what was going to be retirement,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: was clear that she was not going to run again to bring her back in.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: So like,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: everyone sort of was like, wow, there's leadership.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then we have the same happening with Plattner.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think the sense of like,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: he is there for the community and he is,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: he feels the community,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: he knows the community.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm wondering in like the way you've studied politics,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: is that such a thing that like,
• 31:40
  can we call it vibes that like the state of our democracy right
• 31:42
  now is we're
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: looking for the person who we think will actually stand up for us,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: not just drink with us.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Who has our back.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Luca says, who has our back.
• 31:52
  Doesn't just buy us the beer,
• 31:53
  but they actually,
• 31:54
  maybe they carry us out of the bar.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that wasn't rehearsed, because that was too good.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't rehearsed.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: I came from nowhere.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, boy, there's a lot there.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's onto something.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: if you buy any of what I say about a sense of resentment,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: a feeling that you've been abandoned,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: that your way of life is looked down upon,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: that you're not getting your fair share,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: you don't give a shit if somebody's just one of you.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not enough.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it might not even matter that they're one of you.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to know that they're going to stand up for you.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what's interesting, two things very quickly.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: to be fair,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Susan Collins,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: if she was sitting in our little podcast studio,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: would say,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: you want to talk about the politician that has stood up?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: got the grant money back, got ICE out of Maine.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're going to disagree with that narrative,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: but that's the one she's going to sell,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:04
  that has spent decades actually looking out and not just
• 33:08
  standing in Monument
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Square shouting at other people.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's me.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you can think that the winners in politics are,
• 33:21
  Or those that scream the loudest,
• 33:23
  create a movement,
• 33:25
  organize,
• 33:25
  you know,
• 33:26
  words we love.
• 33:28
  Or you can acknowledge that politics is just a dirty game and
• 33:31
  you need a seasoned leader.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: She won on that narrative in 2020.
• 33:36
  And there's aspects of this current election that we can get
• 33:40
  into it that are very
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: different than six years ago.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very different.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: But there's,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I guess what I'm trying to point out is,
• 33:49
  is there's different ways you can think about how you stand up
• 33:52
  for folks in the
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: political system.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And clearly there's a lot of people and I'm interested in,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 34:00
  I would imagine that they skew younger that say the way you
• 34:05
  stand up for us is,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: is not by working the smoke-filled back rooms,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: but by doing what Graham Plattner is,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: by standing with us in the streets.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Graham Plattner would say,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Janet Mills,
• 34:19
  she wasn't pushing that rock up the hill when she vetoed
• 34:23
  pro-union legislation,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: when she vetoed legislation to give Wabanaki people tribal sovereignty.
• 34:30
  The list goes on of the things she's vetoed that feel like she
• 34:33
  got to the place to
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: make that change.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: She chose not to.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that to me,
• 34:40
  it like represents that whole like slate of her like use of the
• 34:44
  veto while in the
• 34:45
  governor's mansion has created this image for I think a lot of
• 34:48
  young people,
• 34:49
  a lot of people on the left where she is just indicative of the
• 34:51
  status quo.
• 34:52
  Like you get into the position to make change and then you just
• 34:55
  back down from it.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So she may have stood up in certain moments,
• 34:58
  but I actually see kind of these vetoes as like backing down in
• 35:02
  certain ways.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: So Luca,
• 35:05
  I can just actually feel my frustration with you right now
• 35:07
  because I love how at
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: 27,
• 35:10
  you want to talk about all the mistakes that she has made as a
• 35:13
  leader and having no
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: sense of what it actually takes to be in a position of leadership.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: This is the problem with the youth.
• 35:24
  It's hard when you have business interests breathing down your
• 35:27
  neck and so you
• 35:30
  always choose to listen to the Chamber of Commerce and not to
• 35:33
  the working people at
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maine.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Just hear me out for one second.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: Seriously, there is a sense of young people.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's like when I was executive director for the ACLU.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: I had done almost every job to get to where I was in the organization,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: but no one had done my job.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's so easy.
• 35:52
  You know,
• 35:52
  to look at the people who are leading and being like,
• 35:54
  why are they doing this?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: Why are they doing that?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, a little grace, right?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: I hear you.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: I hear you.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: I hear you.
• 36:00
  And a little grace for the fact that our democracy was designed
• 36:04
  for compromise.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: And actually,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: that would be hour two of the podcast with Professor Jacobs,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: since that is also what he studies.
• 36:11
  But I just wanted to acknowledge that I'm just feeling a little
• 36:14
  frustrated right now.
• 36:16
  And I wish I could transport you to your 56-year-old self and I
• 36:21
  could go back to 27
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: and we could do this in reverse.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Totally hear you.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that I'm not saying those decisions were easy for her to make.
• 36:30
  I'm saying that I think to the people of Maine or to a certain
• 36:36
  subset of the people
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: of Maine,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: those vetoes look like protecting the status quo.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the status quo is not super popular right now.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if Nick has any data on the status quo,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't think it is something you want to be protecting.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to be the status quo candidate.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if the status quo ever got good poll numbers.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get a t-shirt.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: I love the status quo.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: I love the status quo.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is what Luke is going to get me for my birthday.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: it's interesting that we just so quickly,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure somebody does have numbers on this,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: but like to come full circle,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: this is just the latest iteration of the how do you respond to Trump?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you try and go over and win back voters?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: which would mean compromising on stock.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: To just give it a very concrete issue,
• 37:26
  one of the debates that always takes place with the how do you
• 37:30
  win back rural
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: voters is can you let a Democratic candidate not be a gun control nut,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: for lack of a better word.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Graham Plattner actually has very robust Second Amendment views on this,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: but just in the abstract,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: that was a conversation that many had.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you're going to win back rural voters...
• 37:52
  You need to let them have positions that conflict with the
• 37:56
  millions of dollars that
• 37:57
  Bloomberg is going to funnel into their race to keep them from
• 38:00
  winning as a pro-gun
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: control organization.
• 38:05
  Or do we stay as ideologically pure as we can and mobilize the
• 38:12
  under-propensity
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: voters that we know agree with us but just somehow don't show up to vote,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: that mythical segment?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or convince them through better messaging?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like we could talk to you for the rest of the day, Nick.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I just love the conversation we're having.
• 38:28
  I love that we're surfacing all of these tensions and nuances
• 38:33
  that rarely get
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: brought out in conversations around politics.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess I'd love to know.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Who's going to win?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: No, I don't want to know.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to know who's going to win.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think anyone knows who's going to win.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody knows.
• 38:46
  But I am interested in what you would hope for rural voters in
• 38:53
  Maine or rural people in Maine.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: What would you hope for the future for them?
• 38:58
  I think the only thing I've ever really hoped for in mixing my
• 39:03
  objective and
• 39:04
  personal sense is for rural people and rural communities to be
• 39:09
  able to shape their
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: own political destinies.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: to speak for themselves,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: to define themselves on their own terms,
• 39:18
  see the language that they use reflected in the language that
• 39:22
  our politicians use,
• 39:25
  not to be held captive by the consultants in some far-off
• 39:30
  distant city that think
• 39:32
  they can be won over either through outright bribes and
• 39:36
  programs or flashy
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: messaging campaigns.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's somewhat of a
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Pollyannish hope,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:47
  that's a hope that's about resurrecting a sort of local
• 39:51
  participatory democracy
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: that has many hurdles to overcome that are not all based in ideology or
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: personality.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how does that happen in a modern society?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: media environment how does that happen when everybody's just glued to the
• 40:09
  algorithms on their phone fueling the rage how does that happen
• 40:13
  in areas not just
• 40:14
  of deep poverty but decades of intergenerational deepening
• 40:21
  poverty so yeah and what
• 40:25
  about for those two little boys you have that you're raising on
• 40:28
  your farm what do
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: you want for them
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this actually is my real point.
• 40:32
  I think I want for them what people living in cities want for
• 40:35
  their little boys and
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: girls and what people in the suburbs,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want them to develop full sense of themselves.
• 40:42
  I want them to feel like they're allowed to be complex
• 40:46
  individuals that contain
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: multitudes as well and to find their people.
• 40:52
  And they can find their people as they probably will,
• 40:55
  empirically speaking.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I hate knowing statistics.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: by moving far away from mom and dad.
• 41:04
  But the fact that it would be their choice and not somebody
• 41:09
  else's expectation or
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: out of necessity,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guess he's the best I could hope for.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 41:17
  that's pretty nice to hear as someone who I'm one of those
• 41:20
  empirically chosen
• 41:22
  children who moved away and found their people and moved away
• 41:25
  to the city.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: I choose to live in the country still,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: but I care really deeply about my home and Maine.
• 41:34
  And I was just back home last week skiing in Carabasso Valley
• 41:39
  and driving through
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Farmington back to Reed Field and stuff.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, it is really amazing.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: a place I care super deeply about.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I love hearing that as your hope for your kids and people of Maine.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for coming on and talking to us, Nick.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Nick.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: This has been a total pleasure and we appreciate you being with us.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome everyone.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: Here we are.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's time for Age Bait.
• 42:10
  This is the part of our program where Luca shows me something
• 42:13
  on the internet and
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: we try to see if I even know what it is or how I'm going to react.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: So what do you got for me today, Luca?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: What are we doing?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: I love calling it a program.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: So today I am going to share my screen with you.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see this?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I have the website up for Polymarket.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And Polymarket is a website where you can bet on basically anything.
• 42:40
  And Polymarket has a specific tab,
• 42:42
  which I'm pulling up now,
• 42:43
  for politics.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you can bet on the outcome for basically any political issue.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is insane.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the questions on the homepage for politics here are...
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Democratic presidential nominee,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: will the Iranian regime fall by March 31st?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the volume of money here is mind boggling.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: You have $868 million on the Democratic presidential nominee.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: You have $21 million on the Paris mayoral election.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you even have the Slovenian parliamentary election on here.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's pretty wild.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: What do you make of this, Alison?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um...
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a couple of things coming up for me.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: And with, you know, the way I think I have to go in weird orders.
• 43:34
  So can I reflect first on the sense that everything is a bet
• 43:39
  right now is just hard for me.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: So before we even get to like this idea of whether it is predicted,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: like what it predicts,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: I just,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I kind of knew what this was.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: I knew there was betting on things because I hear about it,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: like from the college kids that they're like,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: you can bet on anything.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess I just feel like,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's how we're taking the temperature on things,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: like these incredibly important moments in politics or even anything,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: that it's a game.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's how we're connecting is let's bet against things.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: It feels hollow to me.
• 44:14
  Yeah,
• 44:15
  I mean,
• 44:15
  to steal one of your favorite phrases,
• 44:18
  it feels deeply problematic.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: I do like that phrase.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Which is your favorite phrase from anything,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: from your coffee being cold to like...
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Democracy ending.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Those things are all deeply problematic.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I actually chose this clip because as opposed to our last age bait,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: where I think we had really different views on this,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: I actually thought this would bring us together.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: This does feel really problematic to me.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like politics is...
• 44:45
  can really feel like a game to people,
• 44:46
  but it has profound implications on people's lives.
• 44:50
  And the fact that you can bet on every aspect of politics and
• 44:55
  of life right now
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: seems to kind of gamify life in a way that,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: I agree,
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: feels hollow.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: and that's why I mean,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: obviously,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: we're talking about Maine politics in this in mud season,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: which is a much more connected political world.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think our,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: when we spoke with David Farmer,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: he was mentioning,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: if you haven't met a candidate,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: it's because you don't want to write in Maine,
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: we are super connective tissue in politics.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: But the idea that.
• 45:23
  People's engagement is around a bet rather than like actually
• 45:27
  being in a room and
• 45:29
  sort of feeling what's happening and listening and feeling and
• 45:33
  sensing a candidate
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: feels like another level of disconnect,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: another level of like we do it.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: And especially because you're betting on your phone, right?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm guessing people are not going like it.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, here's an age bait for you.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know when I say like racetrack betting?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I'm talking about?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I understand.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like an image in my head of like going down to the stables.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: Did you say stables?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: No, you don't go to the stables.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: You go to the track.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: And like people would go and they would put their cards in.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure it still happens someplace.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: But there's not even a social engagement here.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: You are on your phone.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: You are placing a bet.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just tell you one,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: like really on the disconnection part of this,
• 46:14
  I think the piece that will really shock you is that 71% of
• 46:18
  people who use
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Polymarket are men.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a platform dominated by men.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I actually don't think it's that surprising.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, then how is it so predictive?
• 46:26
  If it's just one segment of the population,
• 46:28
  how are they getting it right?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that people just, I'm sure there are questions that are biased.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Also, insider trading.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I know the answer to this.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's the freaking patriarchy.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, somehow the men always know and always end up in power.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: How about that?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: We could go with that.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even getting a rise out of you for that.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, of course.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Agreed.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I just, I breezed right by it because I was like, duh.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, I agree.
• 46:59
  I think that it's no surprise that men have developed a
• 47:02
  platform dominated by men
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: to further enrich themselves.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And also,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: there are a lot of men who are getting screwed over on this platform,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: losing lots of money.
• 47:11
  Like,
• 47:12
  this platform wouldn't be successful if there weren't a lot of
• 47:14
  people losing out.
• 47:16
  It's so funny because it actually,
• 47:17
  this all does come back to our last age bait.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: And we,
• 47:21
  Luca and I actually had a follow-up conversation after age bait
• 47:24
  where we sort of,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: and we ended up,
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: we put that on our sub stack,
• 47:26
  sort of a back and forth to go deeper because I'm not sure
• 47:29
  we've gotten each other
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: to laugh as hard as we thought we would at last,
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: like last time.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: But like, this is supposed to be lighter, but the topic is serious.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the comments we got back was this idea, right?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 47:39
  don't forget Allison and Luca to talk about like how much money
• 47:42
  plays into all of
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: this,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: All of these things,
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: when we incentivize like reaction,
• 47:48
  whether it's betting or you have like really intense hyperbolic
• 47:52
  politics and
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: rageful politics,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: like it gets the click,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: And people are making money.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's not that it just changes our politics.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: There's money behind all of this.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: People are making money off of these things.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: But one last piece I want to leave you on is that because you can bet on
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: everything,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: there's a question on Polymarket right now,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: who will win the main Democratic Senate primary?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: And currently, let me see the current percentage.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: So 76% of people think Graham Plattner is going to win.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that is pretty remarkable, I think.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like how long has that been going on?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: Does it show?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: for a while,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: up until maybe November of 2025,
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: him and Janet Mills were kind of going back and forth.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Although when his Reddit posts come out, you can see him drop.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then he kind of climbs back gradually from that.
• 48:44
  And then there's a pretty big spike about a month ago when that
• 48:47
  poll came out,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: the UNH poll came out showing him up 40 points,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: which we can debate how accurate that is.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: But about 80% of people think he's going to win this race.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: Such an interesting part of politics, right?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_03: Is like, how does it self enforce, right?
• 49:00
  Like there's a poll that says someone's going to win and then
• 49:03
  people start thinking
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: they're going to win and that starts influencing,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: apparently the betting market.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Should we put some money on though?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I feel I wait a minute.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot believe unethical in a lot of ways.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: I am not going to be like,
• 49:19
  there's enough ways I support the capitalist system with my
• 49:21
  everyday life.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to then engage as well.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: But you know,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: wait,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: but Allison,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: if we start betting on Polymarket,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: we might be able to get sponsored by them.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Politics Between Us, brought to you by Polymarket.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that won't raise any alarm bells or flags.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: For the authenticity of our project.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_03: We are here to talk about politics and what it means to live a good life,
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_03: which apparently now involves betting on everything.
• 49:46
  There are so many things we could go down on this track,
• 49:49
  but I think,
• 49:49
  you know.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now polymarket is part of our lexicon together.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a little bit more understanding there for both of us.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 49:59
  Well,
• 49:59
  thank you for bridging the polymarket divide,
• 50:01
  the generational polymarket divide.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure I understand still why people would want to do it,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_03: but I thank you for bringing it to me.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: And now I'm going to have to have money.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: Money.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 50:12
  now you've enhanced my understanding of one of the many more
• 50:15
  dreadful things
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: happening in the underground current or overground current of America.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that was age bait.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Round two.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit more agreement this time.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: A little more agreement this time.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for not tearing us apart again.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: We always come back together though, don't we, Luca?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Always come back together.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we do.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: All right, Luca.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: Talk to you tomorrow.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to you tomorrow.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's our show, everyone.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: And a reminder,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: Luke and I both work for Colby College,
• 50:51
  but the views expressed in this podcast are entirely our own
• 50:54
  and are not endorsed
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: by the college.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks for listening and hope to see you soon.