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A woman’s playbook to unleashing and thriving in the workplace · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:04
  Good day.
• 0:05
  Welcome to the Midday Report on the America Loud News Talk Radio Network, the countermomentum of spin.
• 0:11
  I am your host, Dr.
• 0:13
  Franco Musio.
• 0:14
  To our friends listening in the US and around the world, I always mention this.
• 0:18
  There is no lack, no lack whatsoever of hard news items to keep our adrenaline going.
• 0:24
  Our aim though, with this show and all the other shows is to dissect out the nuances and underlying causes and foundations of the events with which we come into contact now continuously.
• 0:36
  Used to be almost continuously.
• 0:38
  It's not.
• 0:38
  It's always so I want to give a plug, July, uh definitely July 2nd, July 4th, Nashville, Tennessee.
• 0:45
  If you look up America Alch's talk radio um website, you will see an incredible, incredible compilation of speakers and uh hosts and such and a wonderful conference.
• 0:58
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• 1:00
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• 1:08
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• 1:12
  Yeah, that that's 100% worth it.
• 1:15
  Today's show.
• 1:16
  It's gonna be a sequel to last week's show.
• 1:19
  Uh because uh my goodness gracious, if we had like a call-in format, the keyboard would have uh still been lighting up.
• 1:28
  Um so last week's show is moving from surviving to thriving through the lens of a female today, a woman's playbook to unleashing and thriving.
• 1:37
  So I'm thrilled to reintroduce for the second time of the show, Jacqueline Jones.
• 1:42
  Jackie, welcome.
• 1:44
  Thank you so much.
• 1:45
  It's a pleasure to be here again.
• 1:46
  Absolutely.
• 1:47
  So Jackie Um is a senior technology and media executive with a track record, long track record of leading large-scale transformation initiatives across global organizations.
• 1:58
  She's currently serving as VP of a huge uh well, VP of strategic projects of a huge tech firm.
• 2:06
  Jackie has held executive leadership roles at Disney Streaming, Bam Tech, where she led Global Product Strategy.
• 2:13
  She launched Disney Plus's ad-supported tier, managed high value partnerships and major trends, including MLB, you know what that means, major league baseball, HBO and Verizon, and uh she's founded her own consulting firm, advising companies across media sports, fintech, telecom business strategy, organizational design, everything.
• 2:35
  So she does other things too.
• 2:37
  She mentors women uh in tech and also serves as a board advisor in the Children's Science Museum of Virginia.
• 2:44
  So Dakie, uh you're a hit, you don't know that, but you have been a complete hit.
• 2:51
  So let me set the stage for today's show.
• 2:55
  And uh I'm gonna tell you a little story.
• 2:58
  Uh it it's kind of disgusting.
• 3:00
  Well, it's not disgusting.
• 3:02
  So uh we have a friend and she has a good sense of humor, and she decided to try something a little bit comical, but she wanted a raise.
• 3:11
  So um she went to her boss, but before she went to her boss, she went to the bathroom and she got oh god, should I say this?
• 3:20
  I'll say it.
• 3:21
  Two oranges and a banana, and she put it in her pants.
• 3:24
  And she walked to her boss's office, and she asked very politely for a raise.
• 3:30
  And thank God her boss had a good sense of humor.
• 3:35
  And it and it works, and it worked.
• 3:39
  So that's setting the stage.
• 3:41
  So last week we started with a little historical background.
• 3:46
  And this week I'm gonna give an historical background, but a little different angle.
• 3:51
  So this is from the United Nations than the UN.
• 3:55
  And every year they have reports, the 24th of September 2025.
• 4:00
  It was the report was named Unfinished Business, uh Colonel, private sector and gender equity, uh, equality, transforming corporate commitments into equality for all women and girls.
• 4:13
  Now that's that's a long one, a long name.
• 4:16
  But they they whenever you see a long name, I don't know.
• 4:20
  But but they drew on data from thousands of companies, 17 countries, to to show about talking about gender equality, and it remains the world's unfinished business.
• 4:33
  But the rest of the world, I think, in my opinion, is way behind that of the U.S.
• 4:38
  in this regard.
• 4:38
  And so I'll give you an example.
• 4:40
  I saw a few days ago the South American uh TV station, and they were the and this is real.
• 4:47
  And the weather girl was on, and she was in the middle of uh, I don't know, a very high wind somewhere in Brazil or what have you.
• 4:54
  But talk about sexualization.
• 4:56
  Um, she was wearing this incredibly short, I mean, not even short, not even a mini skirt.
• 5:02
  Um, and then the the wind, and she wasn't even trying to keep her dress down.
• 5:07
  So I I I mean, it was rampant.
• 5:10
  Now, okay, it was funny, but not really, and and it just as I said, especially in certain markets, Latin American market.
• 5:18
  I think that puts women down very much.
• 5:21
  What say you?
• 5:23
  Uh huh.
• 5:23
  I agree with that.
• 5:24
  I mean, come on, give me a break.
• 5:26
  Yeah.
• 5:27
  Yeah, it's you know, it's still rampant.
• 5:29
  We all know that.
• 5:30
  Um, women in particular know that.
• 5:33
  I think um people have various different strategies to um address it.
• 5:39
  Um, it's kind of a fight or flight mode for women.
• 5:42
  They either just kind of accept it and roll it, roll with it, or they try to fight it with various different strategies.
• 5:49
  Um, you know, I think it's as you said, I think um it's probably worse in other regions of the world, but I would say, you know, particularly in this country, um, in the last several years, it we seem to be reverting.
• 6:06
  Um it's it's like there's um now a unspoken reversal of some basic rights that women thought we had acquired.
• 6:20
  Um and I think that's you know, we're struggling with that these days.
• 6:25
  And um, you know, and I think other um other groups are also struggling with that.
• 6:32
  Um, and I don't I'm not sure what what to do about it.
• 6:37
  Um I think you know, in my case in particular.
• 6:41
  My strategy in this area has been um one of utilizing my strength um just as a person, not necessarily as a woman, um, to change people's um view of me.
• 6:58
  Um I use my my high EQ as a tool.
• 7:00
  My high EQ as a tool um to in the boardrooms and in the meetings, um, you know, being in technology, I'm I'm often the only women woman in the room, but I use that to my advantage instead of using it, you know, uh instead of it being you know, something that is downplayed.
• 7:04
  Um in in the boardrooms and in the meetings.
• 7:09
  Um, you know, being in technology, I'm I'm often the only women woman in the room.
• 7:14
  But I use that to my advantage instead of using it, you know, uh instead of it being, you know, something that is is downplayed.
• 7:25
  So we talked about last week many of the challenges.
• 7:25
  So we talked about last week many of the challenges.
• 7:28
  So um what you're doing basically.
• 7:28
  So um what you're doing basically is taking the challenge by the horns, uh the bull by the horns, and you're transforming that.
• 7:36
  And and you've done you've done beautifully with that.
• 7:39
  This report from the UN, it it's almost I don't want to say comical, it's not comical, it's very serious actually.
• 7:46
  But again, it points to to the differences of the United States, even though you say that uh and it's true that um we're gonna talk about this in our last segment.
• 7:55
  We're gonna talk about this huge survey that given to women over the last couple of years, it has taken a little bit backwards turn.
• 8:03
  But based on this report, they're saying, for example, so if you put companies together, this is global, women and men, uh both in leadership teams, 25% more likely to have positive outcomes in terms of profitability, and they say worldwide on a macro level, achieving gender parity, could cumulatively be added.
• 8:25
  I I don't know how they got this number, 342 trillion to the global economy by 2050.
• 8:32
  But um what they're saying is that women make up 39% of the global workforce in the US, it's about 51, 52 percent.
• 8:41
  Um and they remain concentrated in lower paying roles.
• 8:45
  Again, you're looking at countries all over the world, but you're not really looking at at Europe, but I think Europe would would be also the they they're persistent wage gaps, uh probably maybe 20 plus percent um more than more than here, and sexual harassment is is much more in other countries.
• 9:06
  So and it's interesting they don't talk about governments, they talk about private corporations.
• 9:12
  If we were and but even here, even here, the government makes up a big, big big employer, maybe now a little bit less, but all of these um maybe they're not allowed to take surveys in in in government per se, but I I would wager to say it's it's probably the same, maybe a little worse.
• 9:31
  I don't know.
• 9:32
  Um have you had have you ever worked for government?
• 9:35
  I have not, actually.
• 9:37
  Um, I'm um I'm an immigrant to this country myself.
• 9:42
  Um I um came here for grad school in 97 and um figured out that I wasn't gonna pay for that um education with a Canadian dollar, so I stayed.
• 9:56
  Um and um, you know, I it took me 20 years, yes, um, but I finally became um a citizen of this country.
• 10:06
  Umgratulations.
• 10:08
  Thank you.
• 10:09
  But I wasn't in a position, therefore, um, for a lot of those formative years um to have uh any position within the government given my immigration status.
• 10:19
  So that's that's actually a good point.
• 10:22
  So I I want to talk about a couple of things that we didn't touch on, or maybe we may have just a little bit last week, but the motherhood penalty and and caregiving burden.
• 10:31
  Remember, you're saying that you you were a caretaker yourself, maybe not expected to be, but in terms of elder care and at times, at times for men as well.
• 10:41
  But uh women in particular face career interruptions or or assumptions of lower commitment due to caregiving responsibilities.
• 10:50
  Well, these assumptions are just that that they're they're not they're not uh accurate.
• 10:55
  But the motherhood penalty, um did you go through that and re-entry?
• 11:01
  Because I don't know that these companies, most companies have really solid reentry programs.
• 11:08
  And they do affect women's progression.
• 11:10
  Yeah.
• 11:11
  Yeah.
• 11:12
  Most definitely.
• 11:13
  Um, you know, and and in my experience too, you know, I came from Canada where um women get up to a year off.
• 11:22
  Um, and you know, then um I come to find out that um I'm only going to get six weeks, um, and then I gotta get back to work.
• 11:34
  Um it ended up that I took some short-term disability to extend that.
• 11:38
  But um, I also ended up taking a job, a lower paying job, um, with less responsibility so that I could stay home with my son in his you know early years.
• 11:53
  Um and even then, like going back to work, you know, you have a baby that's not there's not a lot of um facilities um for you know young young children.
• 12:06
  Sure.
• 12:07
  So then you're forced with the cost of having um you know in home care while you are working.
• 12:14
  Right.
• 12:14
  Um and all the breaks for for breastfeeding and and all of that, and on top of that, you're not sleeping um hardly at all, right?
• 12:25
  You're you're getting your your child is up every two hours and and you're trying to maintain a career while while doing that.
• 12:34
  I you know, purposefully, as I said, took a step back to do that.
• 12:39
  Um but I wonder um about women who don't have that option, um, and maybe have to lose their position altogether.
• 12:52
  Not easy.
• 12:52
  Um not easy.
• 12:53
  No.
• 12:54
  And those those years were the hardest for me.
• 12:58
  And then once, you know, Sam was of the age to be able to go, you know, to real school, and um, you know, I no longer needed as much support at home.
• 13:11
  I then again try to, you know, start climbing the ladder again.
• 13:16
  And it was 10 times harder.
• 13:19
  Um and so, you know, I really felt like that season of my life, um, there was a big pause button put on my career.
• 13:31
  Not not that I regret that at all, but I remember thinking, why don't they make this easier?
• 13:38
  I mean it seems like there should be a some sort of way to make um make that reentry, as you said, um easier to do.
• 13:50
  Are are are men taking up the slack to any degree?
• 13:54
  Uh certainly I would say maybe more than 10 years ago, but but you tell me in the workplace, um, so now men have paternity leave.
• 14:00
  Um so now men have paternity leave.
• 14:03
  Now I don't know as long as women, but which is good, very good, but that didn't happen before.
• 14:03
  I don't know as long as women, but which is good, very good.
• 14:07
  But that didn't happen before.
• 14:09
  And I I what is your impression of that of men helping or the workplace facilitating men helping out in this regard?
• 14:09
  And I I what is your impression of that of men helping or or the workplace facilitating men helping out in this regard?
• 14:22
  I think that's that that's true.
• 14:22
  I think that's that that's true.
• 14:24
  I think um paternity leave is definitely a step in the right direction.
• 14:24
  I think um paternity leave is definitely a step in the right direction.
• 14:29
  Um
• 14:29
  Um, you know, uh and also allows the husband to have some bonding time as well.
• 14:34
  Sure.
• 14:35
  But that said, it's not the same amount of time.
• 14:37
  So, you know, when that that time is, you know, some companies like um these days will give up to three months.
• 14:45
  Um, but still, you know, before the child um is, you know, can go off to school, there's there's a lot of years in between there.
• 14:55
  Um, you know, I think what concerns me the most, I mean, again, paternity leave is a great step in the right direction.
• 15:02
  But I think there needs to be some sort of coaching for women um during that time and how to re-enter and how to re-engage on careers.
• 15:14
  The vast majority of the women that I mentor are exactly that.
• 15:20
  They're women who are about to go on maternity leave, have gone on maternity leave, are struggling to find their way again.
• 15:29
  Um, and that's when they reach out to me.
• 15:32
  Um that's a topic that that's so let me extend this a little bit to menopause and older women at work and the need to address the need for policies.
• 15:43
  Um supposedly here I have statistics 1.2 billion women globally will be menopausal uh or postmenopausal by 2030.
• 15:53
  And this is a big one as well in the workplace, I believe.
• 15:58
  Oh, most definitely.
• 15:59
  I mean, again, we're to you know, I as I mentioned last time, it's another season for women, right?
• 16:06
  Women have a lot more seasons to their their careers.
• 16:10
  Um, and there is literally, I mean, as far as I'm I'm aware, there is no um support for uh parental powers or postmenopausal women in the workplace.
• 16:22
  Um and it's and it's definitely not talked about.
• 16:26
  No, it's not it's not, no.
• 16:28
  No, there's absolutely no support system there whatsoever.
• 16:32
  Um, but you know, it is a season and it comes with challenges.
• 16:38
  Um and you know, it also, you know, not just challenges in terms of the physical um interruptions, sure, but the emotional as well.
• 16:49
  And you know, quite frankly, women at that age were you know, at the pinnacles of our career and going through significant change at the same time.
• 17:02
  Um, and you know, children going off to college and um and all of that, it's it's also when we need to be earning the most.
• 17:12
  Yep.
• 17:12
  So there's pressure.
• 17:13
  So there's a lot of challenges.
• 17:15
  There's a lot of challenges.
• 17:16
  Jackie, hold that thought.
• 17:17
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• 19:22
  But um the more women I speak with, and and my wife brought this up too, is that she would prefer when she was working in in corporate um the world, of working for a man, not working for a woman.
• 19:37
  And and you know, speaking with other women, uh, they tell me the same, but many of them, not all, that they prefer to work with a man or have a man as a boss, but also work with men in the workplace versus other women.
• 19:55
  So I was thinking, oh my God, this is interesting.
• 19:58
  And in my own uh medical practice, it was very similar.
• 20:01
  So the perception, but it's not only perception, it's really reality.
• 20:05
  It's harder for for some women, maybe many to work for other women.
• 20:09
  And does it stem from a combination of societal pressures or or limited power at the top or or gender stereotypes?
• 20:17
  In this particular case, the gender stereotypes are by women themselves against against women.
• 20:25
  So this is kind of um a topic here.
• 20:30
  So the Queen B phenomenon, and I'm told, well, it's limited at the top, top level positions for women.
• 20:36
  Uh some may feel the female leaders to be pressured to act as the sole woman on top, and then resulting in them not supporting other women, according to some studies I'm reading.
• 20:49
  Um society teaches women to compete with each other rather than support each each other.
• 20:56
  Uh I see that in uh inter women's dynamics, um, and and other studies here in in uh the UK and also Gallup that again, gender bias, how women view other women, especially in authority.
• 21:00
  dynamics um and and other studies here in in uh the UK and also Gallup that again gender bias how women view other women especially in authority you said you've you've worked for men you've worked for women so what is your spin on this or not spid but your perception of this well I think um you know there's there's a bit of history here so for some women it would be it's just easier to work for men because they've mostly only worked for men um and you know there's there's the um I read a study once that that said that um women who tend to like to work with men you know it's usually because um they were very close with their fathers and and there's that whole um stereotype there I in my experience um in working for women I've had great women boss women bosses and then not so great and the distinction between those two was the women that were not so great saw me as competition versus yeah um and and it's kind of that you know that movie mean girls it's kind of the same dynamic and I think you know um unfortunately yes historically women um competed with each other um but I also think there's another dynamic at play here I don't know that it's um so much a stereotype but I'm gonna say this bluntly but I think women know how to manipulate men better than they know how to manipulate other women ah I like that I like that that's a good one so again they're using they're using their EQ.
• 21:13
  You said you've you've worked for men, you've worked for women.
• 21:16
  So what is your spin on this?
• 21:19
  Or not spid, but your perception of this.
• 21:22
  Well, I think um, you know, there's there's a bit of history here.
• 21:26
  So for some women, it would be it's just easier to work for men.
• 22:50
  Oh god yeah but you bet you're right you're right that's good that's good yeah I mean it's it's just it's easier to kind of um play that role that gender role and use it um as a way of ensuring their protection ensuring their job security um ensuring that um they continue to be promoted so I I honestly think in the mass majority of cases it's just easier.
• 23:21
  So so you're telling me women are too smart to be outsmarted by other women in in terms of cases yeah in in terms of men's um weaknesses so there was a woman um who was talking to me about the workplace and she says oh well and she was looking at me and she started like fluttering her eyes and she said well I would just do this I would just do this and trust me if I were her boss I would throw up but she but apparently it worked for other boss well I mean that's taking it to the extreme right like so right um but no I'm talking about like so women um you know have uh a higher EQ generally speaking uh emotional emotional quotient emotional emotional quotient and so I think they are better at identifying personality traits very quickly and better at identifying weaknesses and proclivities if you will so um and they can chameleon themselves into being the thing that they're wanted to be dare I say this you said jealousy um you have a very pretty uh woman who has a boss and the boss is jealous uh not only of the skills of the woman but her looks and could that play a role as well because I've been told I've been told that I've been told that that that that they feel threatened that their job would be taken away yeah no I think that I think that's a real reality as well um I it's interesting I had a conversation with a friend of mine who's also in technology and she is um particularly gorgeous and um she would go so far as to um try and look less so oh my goodness really yes yes so that she wouldn't be a threat and um that's a real thing too I mean you know in all of this like we talk about the workplace and being male dominated and and you know men are are getting um promotions better than women but sure and all that's true but but we have to acknowledge our meaning women's role in that yes and what we are doing um unfortunately to each other um and to ourselves that is assisting with keeping that system alive and well how interesting um and we have to address that you know have you seen the movie and I guess now it's the second thing uh the devil wears Prada Devil wears and and now part two is coming out or has come out and yes so that that's kind of like taking it to an extreme but but I guess it it exists I guess it does exist having a boss like that I think that boss was threatened by the younger girl or or maybe maybe in front I I don't know she she had so many she was I mean a classic bitch to everybody even to herself to herself and but overplayed that uh not not so much the role but but are there really women like that who who are just pure evil yes um there are uh I have worked for several of them um interestingly enough my first I I call them bully bosses my first bully boss um made my life a living hell for years and sorry interestingly very interestingly uh when I started my consulting business and um you know I was advertising my business in LinkedIn and all the places that you do she reached out to me oh no way and she did so that's that's a good one she wanted to have lunch and I was like well this is gonna be interesting so I went uh and she apologized to me really for how she had treated me yeah oh my goodness gracious oh my goodness and we had the most interesting conversation about why she was like that then and oh secure she was insecure yeah she was insecure and she was being bullied by her male boss and so she emulated that example um and she realized many years later that that how she had treated me and reached out and we've been friends ever since.
• 28:01
  She liked that then.
• 28:03
  And oh, she was insecure.
• 28:06
  She was insecure.
• 28:08
  She was insecure and she was being bullied by her male boss.
• 28:13
  And so she emulated that example.
• 28:19
  And she realized many years later that how she had treated me and reached out, and we've been friends ever since.
• 28:28
  Oh, interesting.
• 28:28
  Oh interesting how did you respond to
• 28:29
  How did you respond to that?
• 28:31
  I mean, did you to her apology?
• 28:35
  Yeah.
• 28:35
  Oh, well.
• 28:36
  I I found that fascinating.
• 28:38
  Yeah.
• 28:39
  I I was, you know, I was very thankful and and grateful that she had this realization.
• 28:46
  And you know, when she even said, like, it's what you wrote about your company and what you are trying to do for for women in the workplace that inspired me to reach out to you.
• 29:00
  So I mean, it, you know, it's getting better.
• 29:04
  It is.
• 29:04
  But women have to be part of the solution too.
• 29:07
  Absolutely.
• 29:08
  That's what you're stating.
• 29:09
  Okay.
• 29:09
  I'm I'm going to change a little bit and go into AI.
• 29:12
  So into your field, your world.
• 29:15
  So it's the new uh visibility.
• 29:18
  So what's going on now?
• 29:20
  I mean, it's it's overtaking the whole world, but but new research indicates now how they come up with these numbers that 21% of entry level women receive management or manager encouragement to use AI compared to 12% more with men, 33% more of men.
• 29:39
  I'm gonna read to you a comment.
• 29:41
  I've received many comment written comments on our show last week.
• 29:46
  I'm I'm gonna read to you a comment and have you respond because it's very interesting.
• 29:51
  So this woman responds.
• 29:54
  Another interesting side of this is to follow women who make a name for themselves in the volunteer world, serving on boards, doing strategic planning work, advocacy, et cetera.
• 30:06
  The path was arduous and breaking the glass ceiling very difficult.
• 30:11
  Just because it doesn't involve pay, many don't realize that mentoring is not for in the not-for-profit world is as necessary as it is in business.
• 30:21
  So the traits that characterize strong leadership translates well into my fields, both volunteer and pay.
• 30:27
  Now, male dominance, she she talks a few things here.
• 30:30
  Male dominance may subside as AI becomes a normative working tool.
• 30:35
  I found that so interesting.
• 30:43
  So could AI I find out what would how much AI do you use in your work right now?
• 30:51
  Oh, every single day.
• 30:52
  Okay.
• 30:53
  Every single day.
• 30:54
  Okay, you do.
• 30:55
  So what what do you think of these statistics and what do you think that male dominance may subside as AI becomes more normative?
• 31:03
  Is that true?
• 31:04
  You know, I I think it could.
• 31:06
  Um it's not going to be overnight, just like nothing ever is.
• 31:11
  Um, but I'll tell you what, like part of the reason I pivoted my career into technology was because I saw technology as being an equaler.
• 31:24
  Um, even though I'm I'm only the only woman in a lot of rooms, it still comes down to my capabilities instead of my gender.
• 31:36
  Um to make myself successful.
• 31:40
  And AI, the reason why I think AI um could assist in this is not because of you know that it allows um people to do things faster and you know, those of us who don't code suddenly become code experts overnight.
• 31:59
  It's more because what it doesn't have.
• 32:03
  So what it doesn't have is that emotional quotient again, no, it doesn't have the ability to read the room, it doesn't have the ability to pause on decisions and really think about all the other inputs and the personalities at play instead of just the data.
• 32:28
  So that's where I think it helps women because we would need to be there in that room to offset the oop of um emotional quotient that AI does not provide.
• 32:43
  Right.
• 32:43
  Well, we're human beings and yeah, yeah.
• 32:46
  I mean it it it speaks boy, this is a huge topic, just AI in general, but you're right when you extrapolate that out to what we're talking about.
• 32:55
  Um I I myself kind of touched on this last week about what men want to hear, what resonates with men and and the whole equation of thriving for women or of women.
• 33:11
  So men if if you spin things around, and and men are uh I think more interested in hearing practical solution-oriented way.
• 33:20
  What's in it for me, but what's in it more for the company kind of perspectives on women in the workplace.
• 33:27
  So I I was thinking to myself, well, if I put myself or if a woman puts herself in a man's mind, how could she manipulate that or work with that so that um to translate into thriving for the woman?
• 33:42
  So it it it if with discussions or papers, white papers or what have you, framing gender discussions as a favor it or looking favorably to to women, but men want to hear that that they do want to hear, I I think, but you tell me how they can be better collaborators or effective leaders because many men, my wife says all the time men are stupid, men are stupid.
• 34:07
  Well, in certain in certain respects they are in certain respects, but when it comes to the corporate world, it's a little bit different, but they want to hear how how oh productivity.
• 34:22
  Oh, can can blending men and women lead to higher product productivity or return on investment.
• 34:27
  Well, the answer is yes, from what I'm reading, but they want to see the numbers that they want more concrete, if you will.
• 34:35
  But what say you on that?
• 34:38
  Oh, most definitely, I think um, you know, despite the setbacks that we're having generally in DEI in recent years, I think the smartest men in the room have caught on to the fact that um empowering women actually benefits them as well.
• 34:59
  Um and they have noticed that just like in any good marriage, um, good working relationships benefit everybody else in the company.
• 35:00
  And they have noticed that just like in any good marriage, um, good working relationships benefit everybody else in the company.
• 35:12
  Um, I I have seen it's it's a massive difference from when I entered the workforce to where I am in my career now.
• 35:12
  Um, I I have seen it's it's a massive difference from when I entered the workforce to where I am in my career now.
• 35:24
  Um men are openly saying, yeah.
• 35:24
  Um men are openly saying, yeah, yeah, men are openly saying.
• 35:27
  Yes, men are openly saying this will make us better to have more women leaders in the room.
• 35:36
  Um so yeah, I think that's most definitely happening.
• 35:40
  So so focusing on how can we work better together as opposed to uh, you know, I I'm reading here uh avoiding guilt, but instead of saying, well, in the past you did this, you did that, meaning all men, uh, but but go along with future oriented discussions.
• 35:57
  Um definitely I'll give you an example that's not in the corporate world, but I was at a conference recently, and the guest speaker was a woman who was a combat um helicopter pilot um in um in the US Navy, and she or I mean rather, sorry, and um she was um running a mission um in Afghanistan and they we they were um trying to secure um an airport and she was in the first attack helicopter and she had a co-pilot who was then um and then there was second attack ho helicopter behind her and they run in formation and they were you know idling low um along the airport protecting the seals that were doing their mission.
• 36:52
  And all of a sudden, out of nowhere comes this truck, this pickup truck heading straight for the airport, and they see it coming, and um the the second helicopter with the two male pilots as well as her co-pilot were all saying we need to engage it, we need to engage it.
• 37:13
  We don't know.
• 37:14
  Yep, we gotta do it.
• 37:15
  You gotta take them out.
• 37:16
  Um, and we have no idea what they're coming to, but it's it can't be good because all of the area has been secured.
• 37:23
  So they have broken through that security.
• 37:26
  And she sat there for a minute and she was she was like, No, I'm not gonna engage, because it was her decision.
• 37:32
  She's the the primary pilot in the first helicopter.
• 37:36
  It's ultimately her decision to engage.
• 37:38
  And she said, No, we're gonna wait.
• 37:42
  And literally she said, you know, seconds felt like hours.
• 37:46
  I'm sure and all of a sudden people jump out of that that pickup truck and it was a bunch of kids.
• 37:54
  Oh, goodness gracious.
• 37:55
  It was Americans, they were Americans.
• 37:57
  No, no, they were Afghani kids.
• 38:00
  Oh, oh, oh, oh, I've just seen the the helicopters coming in and we're all excited.
• 38:06
  They wanted to go back to the city.
• 38:06
  Oh my god, goodness gracious.
• 38:08
  You know, Jackie, hold that thought.
• 38:10
  We're we're running a little bit over we're gonna talk about that on the other side.
• 38:14
  Uh commercial break.
• 38:15
  Hold tight, a lot more to come.
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• 39:15
  And we are back with Jackie Jackie.
• 39:17
  We were talking about that helicopter situation and the woman ultimately uh uh was making the decision.
• 39:24
  But uh tell me what or what she said was going through her mind or or how you know it turned out they were kids, but uh that's that's really something.
• 39:33
  Because in my mind, as a man, I would say that's the Taliban, we need to engage and blow them up before they cause any problems.
• 39:41
  And I suspect that's what the others were thinking too.
• 39:45
  That's exactly what they were thinking.
• 39:46
  Um and you know, when I talked to her about it and said, you know, what made you pause, she said I was evaluating all the possibilities.
• 39:55
  I wasn't going to just assume.
• 39:58
  So in those seconds that felt like hours, she's thinking to herself, well, how possibly could a bunch of people with guns have gotten inside of our perimeter.
• 40:09
  That seems impossible.
• 40:10
  Yeah.
• 40:10
  And the truck the truck stopped on a hill and didn't further engage.
• 40:16
  So all these things are running through her mind while she's taking that deep breath.
• 40:21
  So she's evaluating capabilities and options versus how to engage.
• 40:29
  And that single day garnered her so much trust from other fellow soldiers.
• 40:38
  And she was, you know, um she was in in any important mission after that, they made her primary just because of her her thinking there.
• 40:51
  Um her thought processes were very thorough, very meticulous, and and but very quick as well.
• 40:56
  And she had to evaluate everything in a very compressed period of time.
• 41:00
  Do you know who's very good at this too?
• 41:02
  The Israelis.
• 41:03
  So the Israelis incorporate uh all women have to have to uh be in the military in Israel.
• 41:10
  And by the way, many, many Israelis are are half as uh uh joint citizens, not joint what do you call it, they're uh Israeli and Americans.
• 41:20
  So they have dual dual citizens, uh citizenship.
• 41:23
  And it turns out that many of the women are much better uh combatants than the men.
• 41:31
  It turns out in terms of the tanks, in terms of even the aircraft, that there's a subset of sharpshooters, I'm told, in which the the elite of the elite, in which the men are better.
• 41:45
  But overall, women are better shooters uh and snipers than men.
• 41:52
  So I don't I don't know if you I don't know if you knew that, but it it it's really true.
• 41:55
  And and it's actually a physical, it's a physical, it's based on their eyes, their hand eye coordination.
• 42:00
  Hand eye coordination.
• 42:01
  It's based on their bodies.
• 42:01
  It's based on their bodies.
• 42:03
  They physically have attributes that make them better shooters, uh hitting the target, hitting the target.
• 42:03
  They physically have attributes that make them better shooters, uh hitting the target, hitting the target.
• 42:11
  So, you know, uh I I find that very interesting too.
• 42:11
  So, you know, uh, I I find that very interesting too.
• 42:15
  But it's true.
• 42:15
  But it's true.
• 42:16
  It's true.
• 42:16
  It's true.
• 42:17
  Absolutely.
• 42:17
  Absolutely.
• 42:17
  Yeah.
• 42:18
  Yeah.
• 42:18
  And you know, when I was in grad school, um I was recruited um by the Air Force.
• 42:18
  And you know, when I was in grad school, um, I was recruited um by the Air Force.
• 42:25
  Um, well, they tried to recruit me.
• 42:25
  Um, well, they tried to recruit me.
• 42:27
  Um unfortunately
• 42:27
  Um, unfortunately, yeah.
• 42:30
  Um they they said to me that they are actively recruiting women because of um how calm they remain under pressure.
• 42:42
  Interesting.
• 42:43
  Interesting.
• 42:44
  Yeah.
• 42:44
  So so like your your Velvet Hammer, something like that.
• 42:48
  Yep.
• 42:48
  Yes, exactly.
• 42:49
  Well, I mean, you think about it, women are often juggling multiple things at the same time.
• 42:56
  They are and they have to remain calm.
• 42:59
  It's in it's in our biology to be um calm under pressure for our for our offspring.
• 43:07
  Um and so yeah, I think it's it's a natural thing for us to compute multiple options in a given second, yeah, and remain calm while doing that.
• 43:20
  We we don't consider everything to be a threat right out of the gate.
• 43:26
  Um our biology prevents us from doing that.
• 43:28
  So that was like one of my colleagues since she was um at the hospital and she was giving birth, but at the same time, she needed to take care of some paperwork.
• 43:37
  So she had her computer right on her chest while she was giving birth.
• 43:43
  It's just just yeah, that's crazy.
• 43:46
  It's it's you know, I had surgery in February for my ACL, and the surgery we was on a Thursday, and I was talking to my um my leadership, and um they said, So, are you ready for the surgery?
• 44:00
  And this or that, and I said, Yeah, I'm also so you were talking to yourself.
• 44:03
  You were talking to your leadership.
• 44:05
  I was talking to my leadership, yeah.
• 44:07
  Meaning you.
• 44:08
  Um, no, my the boss is above you.
• 44:11
  Oh, okay.
• 44:11
  Oh, you have bosses above you.
• 44:13
  I do.
• 44:14
  Yes, I do, I do.
• 44:15
  Yeah, everybody has everybody has somebody above them, whether they do or if they think they do or not.
• 44:21
  Um that's true.
• 44:23
  So yeah, and I was talking to them, and yeah.
• 44:28
  And um, I said they said, Okay, so you're all I said, yeah, I'm all I'm all set.
• 44:33
  And they said, Well, but we saw that on your calendar that you're out on Thursday, but what about Friday?
• 44:38
  And I said, What do you mean?
• 44:39
  What about Friday?
• 44:40
  I'm I'm working on Friday.
• 44:42
  They're like, you're not allowed to work on Friday.
• 44:44
  You've you're just gonna have major surgery on Thursday.
• 44:46
  And I said, Well, what else am I gonna do?
• 44:47
  I'm not gonna just sit there and feel sorry for myself.
• 44:52
  Oh my god, you're too much.
• 44:54
  You're too much.
• 44:55
  And so I'm gonna have stuff.
• 44:58
  Like, I couldn't even walk stairs, uh-huh.
• 45:00
  But and my my leg was in a brace, and I had all my computer and my screens on my on my um on my table in front of my couch, and I was working.
• 45:11
  So you didn't want to feel sorry for yourself at all.
• 45:14
  And yeah, well, no, I I admire that.
• 45:16
  I really do.
• 45:18
  I admire, I don't know how many men would do that.
• 45:20
  I I honestly, I don't.
• 45:22
  Okay, I'm gonna switch, well, not really switch gears.
• 45:25
  I'm gonna leapfrog to this.
• 45:27
  So every year that there's a company called McKinsey and Company.
• 45:32
  And what they do is they track the state of women in corporate America, and they come out with a report, and and it's it's really really a comprehensive report.
• 45:41
  So this latest one, 2025.
• 45:44
  I want to say towards the end of the year, December or so.
• 45:47
  Um, and it's the 11th was the 11th year, and they survey 120 companies, over 9,000 employees, all of them are women, and they ask questions and they come up with some key findings.
• 46:02
  This year, this past year, six key findings.
• 46:04
  I'm gonna go through them quickly with you.
• 46:06
  Number one, for the first time, women are notably less likely than men to want to be promoted.
• 46:12
  80% of women versus 86% of men.
• 46:16
  Um, whereas, but but when women receive equal career sponsorship and support, the gap disappears completely.
• 46:26
  We talked a little bit about this the last time, but but we have a document, we have it documented right here.
• 46:32
  Yeah, what do you think?
• 46:34
  It's it's absolutely critical.
• 46:36
  Um, you know, we talked about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship.
• 46:40
  Yes, we did, yes, we did.
• 46:42
  Mentorship is is obviously important, particularly at different seasons of a woman's life.
• 46:49
  Um, but sponsorship is the deal maker, it's the thing that gets you across a line, um, breaking through that grass ceiling, glass ceiling.
• 47:00
  Yeah, and interestingly enough, sponsorship by a male is way more successful in terms of the career developed woman than that same sponsorship coming from a woman.
• 47:17
  And you know, that is that's something to double click into.
• 47:21
  So that's interesting because that did not come out in the report, but uh that's a good point.
• 47:27
  That's a great point.
• 47:28
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 47:30
  And and there's research to to to back that up.
• 47:33
  Like in my own personal um personal work life, um, I have seen that time and time and time again.
• 47:42
  Um now depending on who the woman or man is within a company, obviously makes a big difference too, right?
• 47:51
  Their level, of course.
• 47:53
  Um, but if you have a woman CTO and a man CTO, the likelihood of you getting a big boost in your career um from the woman CTO is less.
• 48:10
  Interesting.
• 48:11
  Interesting, interesting.
• 48:13
  Yeah well, that's not necessarily good, but as you say, it depends who the woman is, too.
• 48:17
  So um yeah, okay.
• 48:20
  Number two, and I think that is fading.
• 48:22
  So I think it is fading.
• 48:24
  Like I think the differences between the two are starting to go down.
• 48:29
  Um, but it's it's still very much um well understood in the workplace.
• 48:35
  So let's say you had Oprah giving you uh giving sponsorship to you, Oprah.
• 48:40
  You know, she owns what is it, Harpo, Harpo um uh, and it comes after it's it's her name backwards, isn't it?
• 48:46
  Harpo Productions.
• 48:48
  Um her versus uh, I don't know.
• 48:54
  I think that would carry some weight.
• 48:56
  I think that would definitely carry some weight.
• 48:58
  Again, like it really, you know, it's on the level of the woman and how well known and that kind of thing.
• 49:00
  know it on the level of the woman and how well known and that kind of thing.
• 49:04
  Yeah.
• 49:04
  Yeah.
• 49:04
  Um but um, yeah, it's it's still a thing, like particularly in technology, right?
• 49:04
  Um but um yeah it's it's still a thing like particularly in technology right um because there's far from yes yeah so so even more even more accentuated yeah all right here's number two we talked about this last time the broken rung but but they bring this up that this survey brings this up for the 11th year uh women are held back by a broken rung at the first step up to manager so here uh for every 100 men promoted to manager last year 93 women were promoted and the numbers are worse for women of color so 82 of Asian women and Latinas and 60 of black women particularly particularly hampered here uh so yes men significantly outnumber women and manager managerial level and women basically never catch up yeah that's absolutely true yeah um you know and I and I see it in the workplace all the time I think you know again these seasons play a factor in that right when the promotion opportunities um come about in a woman's career it women have to be much more strategic about that than than men do um but I think there's also you know women have a need to feel they deserve said promotion um whereas men just assume they do okay right so I think that's part of the problem as well um women have a tendency given history given biology given culture what have you to really have that desire to have earned something interesting yeah yeah whereas men don't men just feel like it's it's uh should be just applied without even thinking twice about it so it's it's not even even if it's not deserved it's um what should I say uh uh it's incumbent and it's just part of the whole thing of role of being a man yes and I hazard a guess that if you were to poll all women and say how many times have you had imposter syndrome in your career imposter syndrome you would have yeah yeah imposter syndrome like you know I'm I'm in a position that I don't deserve or in a room that I don't deserve I think that you would find 100% of women have experienced that multiple times in their career.
• 49:11
  Um, because there's far fewer.
• 49:12
  I don't imagine.
• 49:13
  Yes.
• 49:14
  So so even more, even more accentuated, yeah.
• 49:17
  All right, here's number two.
• 49:18
  We talked about this last time, the broken rung, but but they bring this up that this survey brings this up for the 11th year.
• 49:24
  Uh, women are held back by a broken rung at the first step up to manage her.
• 49:28
  So here, uh forever.
• 51:33
  That only points interesting yes yeah if you polled men I would have a guess that that is a lot less a lot less yeah yeah interesting uh maybe it's because women are more secure and in a sense when you're more secure you're more critical of yourself maybe uh I I don't know the set the psychology that goes into that um but okay well let's go three uh senior level women are struggling with high burnout and a steeper path to the top we talked about burnout last time but I I want to go to the next one uh women we didn't uh we did not talk about this women are often penalized for working remotely in contrast men are not so only a third of women who work mostly rem remotely have received a promotion in the last two years prior to this survey so starting in 2023 or benefit from having a sponsor compared to um so yeah compared to let me see what I'm reading here oh compared to half who work on site so again women who as opposed to men who work uh remotely uh have have a tougher time and are penalized in essence yeah I I I can see why that is I think um you know I'd love to double click into that number as well I would have guessed that part of that is you know at least in in technology space right there's a lot more men that are engineers um and they don't necessarily need to be in the workplace um you know they are hands on keyboards um but yeah I think um women who I would also want to know how many of those women are managers um because I would you know I would hazard a guess that as a manager um it's harder for you to lead um you know from a remote position now I have managed myself to be quite successful at it um but I think that's because um you know I I have proven my my capabilities um and my brand regardless of where sure I have where you physically are my wife uh my wife was a manager she did not work remotely and in other words she she was there and I'm thinking too take go away from the topic of women but just in general showing your face now you have a different situation yourself but typically I I like to meet people face to face I like to discuss situations face to face of course if I have somebody in the UK or if I have somebody in Australia or what have you that's a different story you know it's not that called that easy but um I really much prefer to discuss situ and and you know it this opens the door to another discussion but I think personally you gain so much more when you see the person you you see their inflections of their voice you see their body language they see yours you can sense the sincerity or or lack of sincerity and but but in general just in on a human level I prefer that but but having said that women suffer the penalty as opposed to men in that scenario which uh pretty sexist I say yeah no most definitely but I think also you know that it's it's maybe not just women being persecuted for working from home I think it might also go back to that um dare I say it again emotional quotient where women have a strength of of being able to identify people their likes just like so and so forth.
• 55:34
  Yes that's much harder to do remotely even over a Zoom and so maybe part of that lack of success is because um they lose that um superpower by working from home so they can't be as influential yeah um and because they're not as good at reading the room um when they're on a zoom Jackie your insights are incredible uh you add so much to studies you add so much of your personal flavor you add so much of the many many many nuances thank you so much and and and the listenerships thanks you as well so we're gonna have to stop it there but uh my goodness you're wonderful thanks for having me it was great conversation absolutely so thank you so much everyone for listening I enthusiastically really enthusiastically look forward to being with you weekly
• 56:00
  Mackie, your insights are incredible.
• 56:02
  You add so much to studies.
• 56:04
  You add so much of your personal flavor.
• 56:06
  You add so much of the many, many, many nuances.
• 56:10
  Thank you so much.
• 56:11
  And the listenerships thanks you as well.
• 56:14
  So we're going to have to stop it there.
• 56:16
  But uh my goodness, you're wonderful.
• 56:20
  Thanks for having me.
• 56:20
  It was a great conversation.
• 56:22
  Absolutely.
• 56:23
  So thank you so much, everyone, for listening.
• 56:25
  I enthusiastically, really enthusiastically look forward to being with you weekly on the Counter Momentum of Spin, where we will endeavor to address and work towards solving the problems of the world.
• 56:37
  And my God, they're out there.
• 56:38
  So please note that this show and all the shows on America Out Loud, Talk Radio, go to your favorite podcast networks within 24 hours.
• 56:46
  Apple Podcasts Spotify, Pandora, Tune In.
• 56:49
  Uh Amazon, iHeartRadio, among many others.
• 56:52
  So have a great day and God bless you.