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Beyond the Black Box: Building trust with AI systems - EP12 · The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast

• 0:07
  Hi there, and welcome to the Imagery and Trust podcast, the
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  podcast at the intersection of tech and trust.
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  In this episode, I talk with Professor Doctor Tina Visa.
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  She's Professor of Design and Innovation Management, a
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  consultant and Sparring's partner for Organization and
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  transformation. Together, we dive into trust as
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  a silent contract and how leaders can make room for
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  uncertainty instead of rushing to control it.
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  She also shares her perspective on curiosity and complex
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  environments, and what it takes to create spaces where teams can
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  really learn and adapt. At its heart, it's a
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  conversation about navigating trust when nothing feels linear
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  in organizations, in leadership, and in our fast shifting
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  technological landscape. Welcome Tina to the In Between
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  podcast. I'm super excited to have you
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  with me online virtually. Hello, Ava.
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  Hi, I want to dive right into the topics with you because you
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  have such an interesting like career you've like spanned from
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  designing entrepreneurship and like transformation consulting.
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  And now you're in the academic leadership.
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  And I was super interested and wondering what personal pattern
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  or philosophy has guided you through like these spaces and
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  also different kind of contexts. Yeah, that's a very interesting
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  question. So I think I've had like more or
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  less three different lives, work lives, the different career
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  paths and I think what is a pattern?
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  I think I'm, I've really been guided by curiosity.
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  So I'm a very curious person. I'm motivated by learning and
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  learning new things. I think that's, that's like a,
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  like a strong pattern. And I've always been, I heard
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  the, this term, it's called boundary spanner.
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  And I think that's something where I feel like, oh, I think
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  I'm a boundary spanner. So I, I dive into a topic and
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  then I realized, oh, you know this, Oh, there is the next
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  topic. That's also something I would
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  really would like to understand. And I've done some training
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  systemic thinking and also my doctoral theories was based on
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  the systems theory. And I think that's a typical, I
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  would say, characteristic of people who are interested in
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  systemic thinking. So you're naturally drawn to the
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  next thing. So you want to understand like
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  what is the next thing that I don't know?
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  To understand more like the whole, you have to get the big
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  picture. It also sounds like you've been
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  working deeply at the intersection of humans, systems
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  and like interfaces. And I mean, the podcast is about
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  trust and especially at the intersections and also talking
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  systems. Could you let us know of what
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  trust means to you in the context of like design, but also
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  in the way that you've built like relationships with systems
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  and also with each other? I think trust is a such a
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  fundamental concept topic. And so I think if we talk about,
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  I mean, I've been in the field of innovation a lot and there
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  it's always about uncertainty and also being a leadership
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  consultant for some time. It's always the same.
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  It's always about uncertainty. And I think trust is something
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  that we need to reduce the complexity.
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  I mean, that's also something that I think Nicholas Newman,
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  the systems thinker brought up. So he's like, we need trust to
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  reduce complexity. Otherwise, when we, we can't
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  really navigate and we can't really decide and make a
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  decision. And so I think trust is kind of
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  the result of you have a experience and you have an
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  expectation. And if this somehow is in
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  balance, you trust, the trust grows.
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  And if you feel a disconnect or if you realize a disconnect,
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  then you know, trust really erodes.
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  And that's why I think trust is really something that goes down
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  to our basic needs. It is, yeah, it's something,
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  it's like a silent contract. What you what's going to happen?
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  And if this is. And then that's the same if you
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  design human machine or like human technology interaction,
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  that's like one of the topics that I'm really into.
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  And it's the same. We want like we want to trust
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  the system. That means like we want to.
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  And I think that goes down to our basic needs.
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  It's about we need to feel competent.
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  We need to, to be able to have an orientation, there needs to
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  be some transparencies that that we kind of know what might
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  happen, which I think is an illusion.
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  A lot of times we don't know what will happen.
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  We never know how people will react.
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  And now we have, I think now in this phase of our world, we have
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  AI. And that also means like AI is
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  something, you know, where this really is.
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  Like the black box technology used not to be a black box, but
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  now also AI is somehow a black box.
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  And I think that's a very interesting field.
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  But what particularly makes AI for you a black box and how do
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  you approach it when aiming to shed light on on it from a
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  systems perspective and also when you start looking into the
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  possibilities to to design like experiences or interactions?
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  I mean, I think the, the, just the, the, the fact that we don't
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  know exactly how the, how our LLM will react or, you know,
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  what kind of outcome will be, will be produced.
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  I think that's, that's like the black box.
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  You know, it can be this, it can be that, it can be true, it
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  can't be true. I've been heavily working with
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  agents and I think the first time when I had a multi agent
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  system running, like the outcome was completely wrong.
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  I mean, I had this idea I'm going to build my own research,
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  you know, like a genetic system that always researches the
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  latest papers in, you know, in the topic of human agent teams,
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  because that's my research focus at the moment.
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  And then the first interaction was like, it was like it brought
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  up four papers and they were all non existent, like, and I was
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  like, Oh my God, that's a fun fact.
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  Like that's a poorly, really poor outcome.
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  And I think that's that's how we have to build trust.
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  We have to build trust through experience, like, or we have to
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  establish a healthy maybe behavior towards outcomes that
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  are produced with AI, not always just believing this is true.
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  We can develop this through like lots of experience.
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  And I think that's the yeah, experimenting, learning and
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  always knowing enough about the topics ourselves so that we can
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  judge. And I think we have to be
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  critical. So I think there's like these,
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  these opposites. So we have to somehow create a
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  balance where we look at the possibilities and the
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  opportunities, but still are really, really careful and
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  really, really thoughtful. And I think that's maybe that's
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  how we build trust that we still have our, yeah, our critical
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  thinking in place. And you touched up on like your
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  multi agent system and I'm super intrigued by it because you like
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  let us know how you're like experienced it afterwards, how
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  you also like maybe countered the outcome and are you still
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  working with it at all? I mean, absolutely.
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  I mean, I've been, because I'm, I'm working at the University of
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  Applied Science in Munich and they're at the, I mean, we are
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  the AI hub. So I'm since the last, since I,
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  I started there 2 1/2 years ago. It's actually almost three years
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  ago since then. I mean, I'm have, I've been
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  heavily investigating, using, testing, experimenting with AI.
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  And so of course I'm not stopping using it.
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  It's just a better of making it better and improving, improving.
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  And I think we, we have to, I think, continue experimenting
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  with it and looking at, yeah, at what's, I mean for what can we
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  use it? And, but also where are like
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  the, the borders, I mean, where is the place or like the field
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  where it's like completely nonsense to use it.
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  And I think that's, and I think that's like such a interesting
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  phase to not be frustrated, to have A and I think it's also
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  something about our tolerance, like failure tolerance.
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  We have to work heavily with how do we, we have to expect that,
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  you know, it's not working. But it's the same in innovation.
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  I mean, if you start an innovation process and you are
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  upset because the first ideas didn't work, I mean, this is
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  like not how it, you know, how good innovation can survive.
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  It's really about, you know, not being frustrated easily testing,
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  you know, continuing. And I think like just really not
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  giving up. And I think it's the same, you
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  know, we have to, I mean, this is, that's a new technology.
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  It won't go away. I mean, and we have to adapt and
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  see how we can use it. And we're also, you know, be
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  smart, use our common sense, you know, where is the base, like a
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  field that we should not use it. What was the most exciting
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  experiment that you've done in the past couple of months?
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  What was the most exciting? I think when I first saw multi
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  agent systems running, I had really goosebumps.
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  I mean, I saw this and I was like, Oh my God, this is now
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  really a different we enter a different area.
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  And that's exactly, I mean, because these these multi agent
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  system, they felt so human. And yeah, I mean, because it's I
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  think a shift from this personal productivity to team
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  productivity to really having a whole workflow, like a connected
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  a connected process that runs in the back.
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  And I think that that's like a completely different for me,
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  this was really a game changer. Like, OK, it's really will have
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  such a deep effect or like a huge effect on everything that
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  companies are doing, like on all our processes.
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  Because I think now it's like every team can build its own
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  kind of digital support process, like 100% customized just for
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  your team, trust for your own productivity, for your own
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  hopefully also well-being that you can get rid of some tasks
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  that you have maybe time for other tasks that are more
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  important. And I think now it's really the
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  time. And that's a also very
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  interesting service design topic to redesign all processes that
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  we have and not just redesign them and make them, you know,
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  just embed AI or AI automation, but really redesign them and
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  invent them new. I think it's the same what we
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  did when the then the whole digitization started.
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  Like we were able to digitize all the services that are also
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  invisible. You know, service is invisible,
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  how AI acts in the background is invisible.
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  And we had the chance to redesign everything.
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  And there we learned that it doesn't make sense to just
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  digitize the the process that's there.
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  We really learned and that it's the chance to look at it and
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  redesign it, make it smarter, make it more customized, make it
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  in a way that it really supports us.
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  And I think that's exactly the same that we have now just on
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  another level, on another level of complexity, which is also
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  from the trust perspective. I would say this is a much, much
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  bigger topic than it used to be before.
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  And I, I mean, I've been a consultant since, you know, for
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  since a long time. And if I think about especially
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  I would say in Europe or Germany about like how sometimes
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  companies approach innovation, I think already the service
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  innovation, the whole, you know, building service ecosystem was a
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  really, I would say in German we have this saying a Dick is
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  spread. I don't know how you can say
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  that. It was like a really a
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  fundamental shift. And now we feel like looking
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  back, Oh my God, this was small compared to what's happening
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  here. And then using the service
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  design methods, like really understanding what are we trying
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  to do here. And I think that's the, that's
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  the important aspect also in terms of building trust to
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  really understand what, what are we doing?
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  Like how are the process and how can we redesign them so they
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  also serve us as humans and not just be served technology.
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  So we are still in the driver's seat.
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  Even if you have agents in the background, we should be need to
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  be in the driver's seat because otherwise I think, you know,
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  trust will can't survive so. What does that mean according to
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  your opinion? But also research for leaders
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  these days, if they want to, you know, reiterate on their
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  processes, if they want to look into the collaboration of their
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  teams, how do they need to approach system design nowadays
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  and also like designing those, so to say, invisible structures
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  that you have with all like the agent teams that are to be
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  running in the background. As I've been working with
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  leaders mostly in the tech and innovation industry, I mean,
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  their leading is always about leading in uncertainty.
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  I think this is something that has been there all the time.
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  You never know exactly the outcome.
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  I mean, that's like, you know, you start and look at the
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  problems or the challenges and then you try to find solutions.
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  So I think this is like from the basic, it's still the same.
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  But if we really apply more, I think we, I think we need to
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  apply more systems thinking, really trying to understand the
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  whole social system, like what are all the effects?
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  Like, you know, if we if we embed these AI tools, what are
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  the effects on our like on the teams on the social, on our
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  like, how do we Co create? So I think we, we need to have
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  like this meta level of how are things connected?
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  And I know like in business, it's usually we don't like the
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  word holistic. It sounds a bit esoteric, but
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  that's like really trying to have a good overview, a
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  transparency orientation. And so I think really the basic
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  needs so that our that leaders, but also the team feels still
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  competent that they have orientation, that they
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  understand that yes, this is really something we have to
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  experiment with. It's there's not a, a solution
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  that we can just pick, you know, pluck and play.
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  And I think to work on this kind of psychological safety for the
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  teams that this will be an experiment that we do, we have
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  to reinvent, obviously our way of working.
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  And that will lead to a lot of like insecurities that will lead
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  to be will, you know, there will be failures and that's OK.
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  So I think we have to establish a safe space where we can, we
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  are allowed to, to do these failures and to test an
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  experiment. I think also as a leader, it's
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  important to look that your, your members of the team, team
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  members or team really get training, that they get exposed
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  to a lot of tools to that they gain experience.
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  I think if we, if you don't have enough training, I think that's
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  at the moment, I think there is like there was a shocking
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  number, like lots of companies invest in technology, but just a
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  little invest like, you know, I think there was like, I don't
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  know, 85 or 90% just technology and then maybe 10% only like
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  training or it was even less. I think there was a a really
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  high number where he's like, Oh, people really need to be, we
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  have to take them along and say like this is now, you know, make
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  sure that they're, they can be engaged so they can be enabled.
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  If we don't enable as a leader, if I don't enable my team to
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  work with these new technology, I mean, there will be lots of
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  resistance. People will be frustrated.
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  They are, I mean, lots of people are afraid that their job will
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  be, you know, eroded through AI. So I think at the moment it's a
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  lot about building connection, being, you know, being in the
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  relationship, like, I mean it, you know, being really connected
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  on a, a social, on a social level that the team members
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  don't, you know, I mean, they, they go through a lot of, I
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  think hard times facing these new technology and to
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  acknowledge that. I think that's, that's, that's
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  just really important. And to understand also that this
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  is not a, there was a, there's a, a model from a leadership
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  researcher called high Fet. And he developed this
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  distinction between there are like technical problems and
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  adaptive problems. And what we have a technical
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  problem is like, oh, this coffee machine isn't working.
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  And then you just repair it and then you press the button and
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  again the coffee. And an adaptive problem is if we
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  have a lot of, I mean, if really this has an effect on our, the
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  way we work on our structure. So this is a really it's
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  different kind of problem. And there we really we need to
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  take into account or much more the human side, the human, the
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  psych, like the the psychology behind.
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  And I think that's if you are a leader and you'd want to try to
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  tackle this whole topic just from IT, trust from technology,
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  this is not going to work. So I think we really have to
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  join like forces. So people from HR and IT and the
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  leaders. So it's really something where
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  we have to collaborate. Otherwise this yes, it will be
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  just people will be overwhelmed and they will leave the game
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  more or less. And I think that's not something
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  we can afford. We have to make sure and we need
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  and I think interesting is there also has been a nice study that
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  we actually need more leadership.
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  We don't need less leadership. So leadership is like exactly
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  because it's about an adaptive problem.
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  It's really a people challenge. It's a culture challenge.
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  It's a, you know, we have to, it's a really, it's a culture
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  opportunity to. If you look into the cultural
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  topic, doesn't that sometimes feel like there is this
• 17:31
  intersection that doesn't really translate into each other?
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  So you have the cultural part that is has been existing, like
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  it's especially in large companies that come with like a
• 17:41
  lot of heritage. And then you want to include
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  like new processes, you want to include new tools and like the
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  technology. How do you bridge it?
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  And you said yourself, you're like a bridge person that builds
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  them. How will leaders in the future
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  or what? What capabilities do they need
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  to do the same for their teams but also the organization
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  overall? That's a huge question.
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  So I think if we, if we go back really to the fundamentals, I
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  think as a leader, if we enter this field of uncertainty, it's
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  we, it's not about the ship that, you know, goes on like,
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  you know, travels on the calm sea.
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  It's really, you know, we kind of enter the rough sea.
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  And I think first of all, you need to know your ship.
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  So you need to know yourself. You need to be I love this
• 18:33
  German word and I haven't found a translation for it like that
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  that really suits that high tongue because kind of it's
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  mindset attitude, but it doesn't really, it's not the same thing
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  because in Germany it means like you, you hold yourself.
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  It's it's first like, it's like you hold yourself, you know,
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  like how like who am I? Because if it's, this is about
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  trust and social complexity, it means that I have to know, like
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  if I do something, how will people perceive it?
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  How will they perceive it? How, what kind of, what will be
• 19:09
  the result? Umm, and I think that's why it's
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  very important that in a leadership position that we are
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  aware what is the consequence of our actions.
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  Umm, So I think that's the first and very important thing because
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  people will try, especially if it's stressful, if there's like
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  somehow maybe also a crisis. You're trying to read the
• 19:32
  leader. Like what is he thinking?
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  What is he doing? You know, is he telling?
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  Is he authentic? Is he telling the truth?
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  Will he do something that will affect my job?
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  So you're observed and that's why I think it's important to,
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  yes, have really self reflection, self regulation,
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  competence, also your own frustration and resilience.
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  I think that's something if we kind of get frustrated and give
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  up, this really has a big consequence.
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  It, I mean, it really, it kind of makes waves, you know, it
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  affects others and I think that's why really, really basic
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  going back to yourself, getting kind of calm and strong
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  mentally. And then I think that's the
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  ideal position to start. And then, you know, because if
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  we, if we have our like, if we have established our own goal
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  and vision, like, you know, what, what is our idea about
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  this whole new transformation? Establish our own clarity.
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  So how do we get there? I mean, be very clear and also
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  maybe give people, give your team members a clear process.
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  I'd still say we don't know what the result will be, but that's
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  OK. But we, you know, we integrate.
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  We really have formats or activities where people are part
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  of it. So I think we have to bring the
• 20:51
  people along. It's not something, it can't be
• 20:53
  a top down decision. It can't also only be a bottom
• 20:56
  up movement. So it's really both.
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  We need top down, bottom up, really make it a collaborative
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  approach. I would say like in standard
• 21:06
  systemic change theory, if we, I mean, if we read a book about
• 21:10
  that, everything is clear. It's really taking people along,
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  making sure they can, they are enabled, they are committed or
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  they say, OK, yes. And you know, I think I can be
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  part of this because I know where we're heading to.
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  I feel safe kind of the process is because I think the process
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  is the only thing that we if we don't know what the end result
• 21:32
  will be, the solution or the new way of working, nobody knows
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  this. I think even if we have lots of
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  smart consultants who say they know how what the outcome will
• 21:43
  be, but the path kind of, you know, to build the path together
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  and also maybe admit as a leader.
• 21:50
  Oh, I don't know as well. I don't know what the, you know,
• 21:53
  how this will shift everything, but let's be, you know, let's be
• 21:58
  part of the game. Let's go step by step and always
• 22:01
  reflect and define with your team together.
• 22:04
  So what will be the next thing that we do?
• 22:07
  So if I understand it correctly, then you also propose like a
• 22:10
  more iterative close, like shorter term circle planning,
• 22:16
  for example. And then I think it's super
• 22:19
  interesting to look into that from a mindset perspective, but
• 22:21
  also from a way of how technology is built, because
• 22:25
  technology can also be an enabler to go down new paths.
• 22:29
  And you said it yourself that you did that with your research.
• 22:32
  So I was wondering how you collaborate like with technology
• 22:36
  and your teams and your research to do that, to work like that?
• 22:40
  I was actually surprised that I think we have all the processes
• 22:44
  to do that. We have innovation processes.
• 22:46
  I mean, I come from service design, service design thinking.
• 22:49
  So there I was surprised that we can actually apply the same way
• 22:53
  of thinking and working to conquer this new field.
• 22:57
  So my method like my tool boxes are they come from systemic
• 23:01
  thinking from systemic consulting or like change
• 23:06
  systemic change consulting, innovation, service design
• 23:10
  thinking. And so this is like my my
• 23:12
  toolbox and then also with a spice of a stoic thinking.
• 23:17
  So this is like, you know, I infuse some old wisdom, you
• 23:21
  know, from very smart people with really state-of-the-art,
• 23:25
  you know, new ways of thinking. I think what I was surprised
• 23:28
  that this is still it's common sense.
• 23:30
  It's let's let's really, you know, remove all this hype,
• 23:34
  concentrate on very hands on let's just make this a really
• 23:38
  step by step process and really start mapping trying to
• 23:41
  understand what I've been trying to do.
• 23:44
  How is AI going to help us? How is AI going to support us?
• 23:47
  Not like asking what are all the things we could do now, but what
• 23:51
  of this? What of the opportunities that
• 23:53
  are out there really support us? And I think bring it back to a
• 23:57
  very personal, how can it help my way of working or if we are a
• 24:03
  team. I think that surprised me that I
• 24:06
  feel like there's like all this noise and all this, you know,
• 24:08
  there's so much happening. But yeah, if we, you know, if
• 24:11
  you let everything settle, you can still trust in our
• 24:16
  processes. How do we tackle like
• 24:18
  innovation, new technology, new processes and make this a really
• 24:23
  pragmatic step by step. And that reduces complexity
• 24:27
  massive. And then we, we, we go back into
• 24:30
  all, we feel competent, we feel in control because, oh, this is
• 24:34
  actually, you know, a step by step process.
• 24:35
  And that's something that we do. We have a pilot project that's
• 24:39
  going to start where we have 6 teams from different industries.
• 24:43
  And there we have a we kind of developed a really simple step
• 24:47
  by step process to go through it to get rid of all this hype and
• 24:52
  this, you know, maybe also anxiety.
• 24:55
  Just let's, let's do it. Let's map the process and then
• 24:58
  see, oh, actually there we can do it.
• 25:00
  And then we will try it. And of course it will not work
• 25:03
  the first 500 times, but maybe then you know, you know, we have
• 25:08
  on, we develop some fantasy maybe or some ideas.
• 25:12
  How can this be helpful in the future?
• 25:14
  Because it won't be helpful too soon.
• 25:16
  I mean, or just part of it, but not everything.
• 25:19
  And I think that's also this very engineering driven mindset.
• 25:23
  Everything. We have to be able to tackle
• 25:25
  everything to solve every problem, No?
• 25:27
  But if we solve maybe a part of it this already, it's already a
• 25:31
  success. Yeah, I do you think that that
• 25:34
  like this having this focus and also like trusting into ones
• 25:38
  like you said a toolbox that you can use it as something that's
• 25:42
  super particular to each one of us, but then again, also super
• 25:46
  particular for leaders that need to communicate about it as well,
• 25:50
  right. And I was just wondering of how
• 25:53
  you would say what people would need in the future in their tool
• 25:57
  boxes like you named yours. And I do think that there are
• 26:02
  differences for different kinds of organisations.
• 26:05
  But what would be the standard specifically when you look into
• 26:10
  redesigning AI processes and at the intersection of potentially
• 26:15
  like a genetic driven systems? I think what is very crucial is
• 26:21
  this, yeah, to have this or invite the systemic perspective
• 26:26
  of trying to understand what are we actually working on?
• 26:30
  How do we work, how are things connected?
• 26:33
  What are the consequences of if we would maybe change this, this
• 26:37
  way of working this process because we are all very siloed.
• 26:40
  So we have lots of departments that have their own process and
• 26:43
  it's going to be the same. We will.
• 26:45
  I mean, if we think this further, there might not be
• 26:47
  departments anymore because we will, everything will be more
• 26:51
  horizontal. It's everything will be more
• 26:53
  connected. And I think because I think the
• 26:55
  silos, the department, they come from another world, I mean
• 26:58
  another type of technology. And I think to really understand
• 27:03
  what's happening here and to go into this strategic more meta
• 27:08
  level discussions, that's I think important.
• 27:11
  If we get lost within the little, you know, topics, you
• 27:14
  know, of our day-to-day work, I think this is once won't serve
• 27:18
  us. So I think as a leader, we need
• 27:20
  lots of time for strategic thinking, future thinking.
• 27:25
  That's something I call leadership futuring.
• 27:27
  So I have like, I think I kind of came back or became clear the
• 27:32
  last years I've been like, oh, So what I'm actually doing and I
• 27:35
  think I have like now established 2 words for myself.
• 27:38
  So one is leadership fundamentals.
• 27:39
  So this is like really basic, you have to know yourself, you
• 27:43
  know, that's infused by philosophy, by, you know, lots
• 27:47
  of psychology, like really the basics of emotional
• 27:51
  intelligence, Brazilian, all these things, all these also
• 27:54
  buzzwords, but basically knowing yourself and then you have
• 27:59
  leadership futuring. So this is like getting ready
• 28:01
  for, I mean, being grounded and then from being grounded really
• 28:08
  have the time and the mind spate to go into future thinking.
• 28:14
  So what will I mean to detect early signals like what's
• 28:17
  happening in our market, use them futuring design, futuring
• 28:22
  methods. Try to imagine, you know, not
• 28:25
  just in half a year, maybe a year, maybe in five years.
• 28:28
  So we need much more time for strategic thinking and that's
• 28:32
  maybe the good thing. Through AI tools, we might be in
• 28:35
  the position to actually have more time.
• 28:37
  I think that should be the goal that we make more space in our
• 28:41
  calendars for deep thinking, deep understanding.
• 28:44
  And, and if we have one session after another, I mean, if if you
• 28:49
  look at the standard calendar from a leader, it's, you know,
• 28:54
  meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, you know, sometimes
• 28:57
  after like that, when do you actually do your work?
• 28:59
  Oh, I have just meetings. And I think if you then I think
• 29:02
  there was 1, I don't know who it was, maybe Bill Gates.
• 29:05
  And he said, if you look at my calendar, it's more or less
• 29:08
  empty. I have maybe a couple of fixed
• 29:12
  sessions in their meetings, but the rest is empty.
• 29:15
  I use it for really deep thinking.
• 29:17
  I think that's maybe something if we want to steer, we need
• 29:20
  overview and we can't have overview if you're just, you
• 29:23
  know, got running from one meeting to the other.
• 29:25
  I mean, we are exhausted. We can't think anymore really
• 29:29
  deeply. And I think that's something we
• 29:31
  absolutely need much, much more time and space for fundamental
• 29:35
  thinking. Yeah.
• 29:36
  And I want to dive into some fundamental thinking with you
• 29:39
  right now because we're coming to the end of the podcast.
• 29:44
  And I always take some time to have some in between moments
• 29:48
  with my guests and with you. I want to have four of them
• 29:53
  where I ask you like a question. And it would be nice if you
• 29:56
  could just answer them with like one word or one thought that you
• 29:59
  had. So we really get through it,
• 30:01
  speed it up. And I want to start with a
• 30:04
  moment of where you had trust in a system and it failed you, but
• 30:09
  it has taught something important to you.
• 30:14
  Maybe there are too many. How can I come to a concrete
• 30:18
  example? Maybe use the next one?
• 30:21
  Maybe I come back to this. OK, the next one is a moment or
• 30:28
  a time when you with witness trust being quietly restored.
• 30:33
  Quietly restored, I think if you are, My daughter is 11.
• 30:38
  So I think in my private life with kids, you can observe this
• 30:42
  all the time. Kids, you know, react to
• 30:44
  something and they ask you and then they watch you, they
• 30:47
  observe you. Can I trust her?
• 30:48
  Is she reacting in the way that I think she will react?
• 30:52
  Or, you know, would she now be mad at me?
• 30:54
  So I think this is something where I can witness this almost
• 30:56
  daily. So it's a really interesting
• 30:59
  constant trust is really something we constantly have to
• 31:04
  renew and it's easily destroyed. And I think there's this ratio
• 31:09
  of if you do one thing that destroys trust, you need 5
• 31:13
  actions to build it up again, and then you're maybe equal
• 31:17
  maybe. Yes, that's all.
• 31:19
  That's something that I need to investigate.
• 31:23
  Then another moment or a value that you keep returning to in
• 31:28
  your work. I think a value that I keep
• 31:33
  returned to, or maybe it's more like a mantra.
• 31:36
  I have a couple of mantras. So I have one mantra is like, is
• 31:39
  this in my control? Like can I change it or not?
• 31:43
  If I can't, let's not get upset. I think that's something I
• 31:45
  actually need constantly. And then also something else
• 31:50
  like, will this matter in 10 years to, you know, kind of zoom
• 31:53
  out? So I think sometimes it's
• 31:55
  zooming out that really helps and relieves us.
• 31:58
  Yeah. Or me myself, yeah.
• 31:59
  And then one last question to you.
• 32:01
  Was there a moment in teaching where something shifted for you
• 32:05
  or in you and with your students?
• 32:08
  I think with my students, I have, I would say this very
• 32:13
  interesting situation that we have now AI natives and I'm a
• 32:19
  lot of, I'm very surprised how they use AI in in good and like
• 32:24
  in functional and dysfunctional ways.
• 32:26
  And I think the last time I was just very surprised someone used
• 32:30
  it in a very dysfunctional way. Did a self reflection with AII
• 32:35
  mean it wasn't his reflection. It was then an LLM reflection
• 32:39
  and we were looking, you know, I wanted to have his reflection,
• 32:42
  his personal reflection. And I think that was like, I was
• 32:45
  like, Oh my God, you know, there we have too much trust in these
• 32:48
  systems. Not thinking like, is that
• 32:51
  something? Is this really functional?
• 32:52
  Does this really serve myself? Yeah, I was pretty.
• 32:57
  Yeah, pretty surprised. Thank you, Tina, so much for
• 33:01
  like this conversation, for all the insights that you shared and
• 33:05
  the tangible examples that we got to learn from you.
• 33:08
  I'm truly thankful for your time and I look forward to hopefully
• 33:13
  have you on the show again. And then tell us a bit about the
• 33:16
  process that you ran through, like the next systems that
• 33:19
  you've built up. Thank you so much.
• 33:21
  Thanks, Eva. Thanks so much for inviting me.
• 33:23
  It was very. Yeah, very.
• 33:27
  It's nice to go through these questions.
• 33:28
  I think whenever you get interesting questions, it's very
• 33:33
  nice to yeah, kind of witness whatever what kind of thoughts
• 33:37
  come up. And I think that's.
• 33:38
  Yeah, it's all was very, very nice.
• 33:41
  Thank you. Thanks so much.
• 33:42
  Bye.