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(INTERVIEW) "BOUND BY BDSM" AUTHORS COME TO THE MIC · CALL ME MISTRESS

0:15
Hi, welcome to the latest episode.
0:17
Call Me Mistress. I'm your Hostess, Mistress Mia,
0:20
and today I bring you a special guest, one from Maryland, one
0:24
from Missouri, The Show me state.
0:27
And you're getting ready to show us so much with your book.
0:30
I bring you Alicia Walker and Arielle Kuperberg.
0:34
So ladies, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us.
0:37
Absolutely. I know we tried this before, so
0:41
we're going to give it a whirl. But you all wrote this wonderful
0:46
book bound by BDSM, unexpected lessons for building a happier
0:51
life. And I, I love this book.
0:54
Myself and Edie Boleyn, we both read it and she is of one of the
0:59
Doms in the dungeon. She is very insightful, very
1:03
intellectual about the psychology behind BDSM.
1:06
And so we really have extensive conversations about it, but you
1:11
know, it's great. And like I said, we really
1:13
enjoyed the book and we were talking a lot specifically about
1:16
the different topics that you've brought up that really isn't
1:18
covered in a lot of BDSM, you know, literature quite
1:23
truthfully. So that's why I was kind of a
1:25
refreshing to read yours. And I was like, oh, this is
1:28
great. You know, you lay it out so
1:30
easily for people to really comprehend so.
1:33
Thank you. Yeah, I loved it.
1:36
So, Ariel, would you tell us how how you all started this?
1:39
How did you all meet? We met probably over 10 years
1:43
ago at this point on a Facebook group, actually for academic
1:47
mothers. And there was a long
1:49
introductory thread and everyone was kind of like introducing
1:52
themselves and saying what they did research on.
1:54
And Alicia introduced herself and I think she mentioned she
1:57
had just done a study on women who had affairs with other
2:02
women. But I identified as straight and
2:04
I had been working on a study that was on college students who
2:08
said they were straight but who had hooked up with same sex
2:11
partners. And I was kind of stuck on the
2:13
project. And I was like, hey, we should
2:16
work together and you should help me actually finish writing
2:18
this paper. And since then we became like
2:21
really good friends. We started off chatting on
2:23
Facebook and having, we still chat probably daily on Facebook
2:28
and now we've met, you know, several times over the years now
2:31
at conferences and stuff. But that was, I think we
2:34
originally had this kind of shared interest in sexuality
2:38
topics. And yeah, we've been
2:41
collaborating ever since then. That's wonderful.
2:44
And so you all came about to discover how you were going to
2:48
write this book. So, Alicia, how did you start
2:51
that? I had about 6 different students
2:54
independent of each other just approach me after class and say
2:58
hey have you ever thought about studying BDSM?
3:01
In the first like 3 or so I said, no, I, I haven't really
3:05
thought about it. And by the 4th 1 I started
3:08
thinking maybe I should start thinking about it.
3:11
And so I approached Arielle because I love working with her.
3:13
And I said, hey, you know, what if we did this project and she
3:18
was game. So we, we designed a survey and
3:23
interview protocol and we launched the study and Arielle
3:26
came up with this great idea to post invitations to participate
3:30
in Reddit, sub subgroups, subreddits and got a lot of
3:34
folks that way. And then we had a large group of
3:39
undergraduate researchers who were helping helping us.
3:41
And a lot of them were actually in the BESM community, which was
3:43
really helpful. And they helped kind of inform
3:45
the questions. And they were on Fetlife.
3:49
And so we got permission from Fetlife and put a call out there
3:53
as well. And pretty soon we had a really
3:56
large sample. This is actually the largest
3:59
study on BDSM to date. We had 96 completed interviews
4:04
and like 20 more than 2400 survey bugs that.
4:08
That's right. Yeah, yeah.
4:09
Yeah, I remember you saying it was almost 2500 people that you
4:13
did this survey and and you asked them several obviously
4:17
extensive questions. What kind of stuck out to you
4:20
when you were writing this, this survey?
4:22
What were you thinking? Like God, what are people really
4:25
into? Yeah, I think part of it was
4:27
finding out what are people into like when people say they're
4:30
BDSM practitioner, what does that actually mean in the like,
4:34
what have they actually done? What do they typically do?
4:36
So, yeah, I think as I said, I'm interested in like kind of
4:39
hidden sexual behavior too. So that's just like, you know,
4:43
tell me the numbers, like, how often are people doing these
4:45
types of things? But we also asked a lot about
4:49
community benefits they had gotten from the BDSM community.
4:53
That was something I was interested in having had some
4:57
like, different encounters with the BDSM community.
5:00
So in some ways, like I grew up in a very religious community
5:05
and there were some aspects of the BDSM community that you
5:08
wouldn't think they'd have anything in common, but I think
5:11
they do just that like sense of community and all these kind of
5:15
like non sexual benefits that people are getting from it.
5:19
So yeah, we had a lot of questions on that.
5:22
We had questions on like how many friends do you have who are
5:24
into BDSM and, you know, life and their attitudes, all sorts
5:30
of different questions. Yeah, that's, that's incredible.
5:34
I know you all had talked about in your book specifically you
5:37
said that you were losing community and you had to, you
5:43
said specifically you put in what you get back in the BDSM
5:47
community. So I thought, you know, it's
5:49
entirely true. I I try to explain to people in
5:52
our area, we don't have the really the best community.
5:55
I find that there's a lot of cliques and it's really strange.
6:00
I find it really strange because parts of them kind of frown upon
6:04
crossdressers and then I don't know it.
6:08
It's just, I want it to be a non judgmental group, but it
6:14
sometimes people, I don't know if it's, I don't know, maybe if
6:18
it's just the lack of education with people I don't know.
6:20
But that's just been my experiences.
6:24
I think every community has some like inherent problems and
6:28
disagreements and like, you know, things that people feel
6:33
really passionate about that people outside the community
6:36
would have like no idea what they're talking about.
6:39
But yeah, I think there's also, I don't know, for me, I moved
6:43
last year, I moved states after living in the same place for 15
6:46
years. And like, as I was writing this
6:49
book, thinking about like, how do people form communities?
6:51
How do people find that sense of connection?
6:54
And I think that's something a lot of people are kind of
6:56
thinking about these days as if you've read, people have talked
7:00
about there's no, you know, people don't have community.
7:03
They all stay home. They're on their like Facebook
7:05
all or, you know, not Facebook whatever young people do.
7:08
Like that's the one. Yeah.
7:12
Like the, you know, they're all on their computer all day and
7:15
like not interacting with people.
7:18
And I think people want more of a sense of community.
7:21
And it's it was interesting to see like there's this whole
7:24
build up community with all these rules and kind of social
7:29
ideas about how you should do things.
7:32
But it also that kind of leads BDSM partitioners to have this
7:36
built in community that gives them all these benefits that
7:39
they could kind of like step into very easily.
7:41
OK, now Alicia, in the book you all mentioned that a lot of
7:46
people say that when they get into the BDSM community, almost
7:52
feels like it's home to them. Yeah, that came up a lot in the
7:57
interviews. People talked about discovering
8:00
BDSM and like finally feeling like they could fully be
8:03
themselves and they were fully accepted and they found people
8:06
like them and that it was very much like coming home.
8:10
And you know, what a wonderful gift that is.
8:13
How many people never really find that for themselves?
8:16
You know, lots of folks just kind of wonder around sort of
8:19
like where is my place? Where exactly do I fit in?
8:22
And so I think that was just really powerful for folks to say
8:27
and really stuck with me as just not an unfortunately not an
8:32
experience that everyone has. Yeah, because I felt like when I
8:36
saw that that one part of a chapter where you talked about
8:40
freedom for society, expectations, and then it just
8:43
kind of rolled into the gender burdens that some people
8:46
experience it to me, it's resonated because I think about
8:51
the primary people that come to see me are cross dressers.
8:55
And, you know, I feel like so much of what they experience is
9:01
problematic in their life, that they can't be who they are, you
9:05
know, and we see that a lot of times too, with where it goes
9:08
from cross dressers. They'll start off as a cross
9:10
dresser, then they'll go into being a transgender person and
9:13
so forth and just kind of expand from there in their life.
9:16
But I don't know what else have you all?
9:19
Yeah. Go ahead.
9:19
You were going to say Ari? I was going to say, I think
9:22
there's a lot of areas and gender is definitely one of a
9:25
major one, especially right now. I feel like in this current
9:28
moment, but there are a lot of places in society where like
9:31
society expects you to behave one way and that may not be the
9:33
way that feels authentic to you. So I feel like when there's that
9:36
tension, like you want to find some place where you could.
9:40
I think last time when we had our like, failed attempt to
9:43
record this last week, you talked about like catharsis.
9:47
I think there's like catharsis to be able to like reconcile,
9:51
like and be accepted for parts of yourself that society is
9:55
like, don't do this, but you're like, but I really want to do
9:58
this. And then finding people who are
9:59
like, well, that's cool. You could do that and you could
10:02
like be yourself around us is, I think, very powerful.
10:06
It really is. It really is.
10:09
So Alicia, when you go into embracing vulnerabilities, when
10:13
you all were discussing this in your book, you were talking
10:16
about finding people and trusting certain people with
10:20
your secret. How were people gauging with
10:23
that? Like was it specifically they
10:25
would go on Fetlife? Would they try to find the
10:27
community like that? So it depended.
10:30
Some people found community by going to munches and play
10:33
parties, some people only had community online fetlife or
10:39
Reddit, or some people were even in BDSM Facebook groups.
10:44
So it depended on what access folks had because you may live
10:49
in a place where there isn't ABDSM community or maybe you
10:55
don't know that there is. So for example, I know that
10:58
there's a BDSM community here in Springfield's, but if I didn't
11:01
know that, I would not know that, you know, if you just like
11:04
ran a Google search or something, it would seem that
11:07
there isn't 1 at all. And so unless you stumble on to
11:12
someone who can kind of, you know, be a realtor into that
11:17
community, you, you wouldn't have one locally and you might
11:21
end up resorting to online, even though there is actually a
11:24
community available to you here. And, and I understand why the
11:28
local community isn't necessarily super visible
11:31
online. I can see where pit books would
11:33
feel like it's not a very safe place here to do that.
11:36
It's pretty conservative here, so you know, it's a delicate
11:40
line and a lot of places for folks to walk.
11:42
You know, how do we connect with like minded folks but also keep
11:46
ourselves safe? Yeah, that's interesting.
11:50
So Ariel, what has been your favorite part of the book that
11:53
you've spoken about and you've written about?
11:55
I I feel like my favorite part writing about was there was a
12:00
chapter just on like what is PDSN and what do people do?
12:03
And I like, there was a lot of like I knew a lot of it, but
12:08
there was even more stuff I hadn't heard of that I went and
12:11
researched on. And I don't know, just having
12:13
those numbers of like, how often do people do this?
12:16
How often are people doing that? And like, let's read all about
12:19
like Easton or whatever topic of the day I'm reading about.
12:24
I thought that was really interesting.
12:26
I thought I really like the chapter.
12:29
We also wrote on community and all the non BDSM communities
12:34
people were involved with. I did some of the analysis of
12:38
like we had a survey question of just like what other communities
12:41
are you a part of that also meet up in person regularly and
12:48
looking and trying to like sort them and figure out like how do
12:51
we categorize these? And so for instance, a lot of
12:55
people were into like what I would call like creativity, like
12:58
creating things or playing music or doing art projects or
13:02
exercise or role-playing was a big one, wearing costumes.
13:08
And then we we're kind of in that with like the BDSM
13:10
community incorporates all these different things that just
13:13
humans like to do in their free time.
13:16
But I thought it was really interesting to be like, what do
13:18
humans like to do in their free time?
13:22
And yeah, as I said, you know, moving last year and trying to
13:25
completely restart my social life in my mid 40s, I feel like
13:30
I got a lot of insights and kind of was able to use stuff from
13:33
the book to like, they're like, OK, you have to, like, show up
13:37
to the same place over and over again.
13:38
So I'm going to go do that and, like, make some friends.
13:41
And it actually worked. So yeah.
13:46
So as the personal question I have are, were you 2 actually
13:49
active before all of this at all in the BDSM community?
13:53
Like, did you go to a function to kind of explore things?
13:59
So I had had some encounters with the BDSM community when I
14:02
was younger. I would say my spouse is kind of
14:05
super vanilla. So I did end up married to
14:10
someone who's like crazy vanilla.
14:12
But when I was in my 20s, I dated a BDSM practitioner for a
14:18
little bit, and I had some friends who were active in the
14:21
BDSM community, and I went thanks toy shopping with some of
14:25
them. So I've had some encounters, but
14:27
we didn't, yeah, we didn't do as much like participant
14:30
observation as I feel like we could have.
14:33
We didn't, we didn't, we didn't have IRB approval for that.
14:36
That's the big thing. We were not approved to attend
14:39
anything like that. I did get some invitations from
14:42
folks that I interviewed and some very kind invitations that
14:45
I had to pass on because I did not have IRB approval for that.
14:50
And prior to initiating the study, no, I had never, I had
14:57
read about BDSM dungeons when I was in college, actually an
15:03
undergrad, but more as like professional, you know, like you
15:08
like folks that have a dungeon and that's like their profession
15:11
is to do that. So I, I was aware of it from
15:14
that, from that aspect. I don't even think I ever dated.
15:19
If I dated someone who was into BDSM, they didn't tell me they
15:22
were into BDSM. Doesn't mean I didn't obviously.
15:27
And yeah, I don't think I've ever been invited to any.
15:31
No, I don't think I've ever had any invitations whatsoever.
15:34
Maybe I haven't lived in the right place or I, I don't know.
15:36
But no, I've never ever been invited.
15:38
A cool thing, though, while I was interviewing folks is people
15:42
kept saying, well, I can just tell from interacting with you,
15:46
even over e-mail, that you have like a really dominant
15:49
personality. And I really like dominant
15:51
women. And I remember telling my mom I
15:53
was like, I'm very jealous. And I feel like if I weren't to
15:56
BDSM, it would solve a lot of things in my life because no one
15:59
in my regular life ever says, I really love that You're a
16:02
dominant woman so. That is too funny.
16:05
So I was going to say the reason why I asked that, because were
16:08
you all like it? Was it really a big shock to you
16:11
when you listen to some of these people talk about things and
16:15
answer your surveys? Was it more or less like, oh
16:17
really? I had like, I'm like, I have
16:20
been studying sex and teaching about sex for almost 20 years.
16:24
So I wouldn't say it was like anything super shocking for me
16:30
personally, but it was interesting.
16:36
I mean, I, yeah, I think I, I interview people about their sex
16:41
lives all the time. And I had interviewed people who
16:44
were BDSM participants for other studies that were not about
16:49
BDSM. So it had come up in other
16:52
interviews. So it wasn't really shocking
16:55
exactly. It was just interesting.
16:59
I think folks were it was like really important to people that
17:04
we understood that hey, we're your neighbors, we're your Co
17:09
workers, we're your friends, we're your family.
17:11
You know, we're not these like super strange people.
17:13
Like media wants to paint us. And people talked a lot about
17:18
like the stigma that they feel all the time, which made the
17:21
fact that every single person I interviewed was so happy all the
17:25
more surprising. You know, you're talking about,
17:28
oh, I'm a part of this like super stigmatized group and it
17:30
has to be like really secretive, but I'm like insanely happy.
17:35
You know, that really made that stick out.
17:37
I don't, I've never interviewed another group of folks for a
17:40
study where every single person I talked to was like really
17:42
happy. So that was to me, the more
17:44
surprising thing than any specific sexual practice or PDSM
17:50
practice that anybody talked to me about.
17:53
And that was that was the main premise of your book, was that
17:58
everyone that you engaged with in this this study was.
18:03
Happy. Yes, yes.
18:06
And I think, yeah. And, and it's funny because
18:09
since then I've collected data for a different study.
18:12
And there's been a lot of people in that study who also do BDSM
18:15
who've asked me about the book. And when I said, oh, yeah, you
18:18
know, it was like, really wild. Everybody was so happy.
18:21
They look at me like, why would that be?
18:24
I'm like, OK, if you're not in the BDSM community like that,
18:26
it's actually very unusual. And so, yeah, that became the
18:30
basis for the book because I kept saying to Ariel, like the
18:32
big thing that all these people have in common is that they're
18:35
like, really, really happy and like, what's going on?
18:37
Why are people, Cuz I've interviewed other people who are
18:39
sexually fulfilled. So I knew it wasn't just, oh,
18:42
they're sexually fulfilled, it's something else.
18:45
So yeah, for me that was that was way more surprising than any
18:49
particular. And people did go into, like,
18:51
great detail about the scenes that they participated in, the
18:55
practices they were into. But yeah, the how happy everyone
19:00
was the most shocking thing, yeah.
19:02
And do you think maybe just the reason is that they can actually
19:05
gauge with other people in a community and they can actually
19:09
be completely honest with what they want with other people
19:12
without judgement? Yeah, I think it's the
19:16
authenticity, it's the level of trust and communication and that
19:21
sense of community. And I've said this Ariel,
19:23
before, but I was jealous talking to folks.
19:26
You know, they're talking about like, I've got this group of 30
19:28
people that I have holidays with and, and game nights or
19:32
whatever. And, and, you know, I want to
19:34
throw myself a party for getting full professor and I don't have
19:37
30 people in the same town. I could advise something like
19:41
really jealous of y'all, you know, your network of folks.
19:44
I mean, I think that's impressive in general, but
19:46
especially in the world we live in right now, where loneliness
19:49
is, is in an epidemic and, and people are not as connected like
19:53
Arielle was saying earlier. Yeah.
19:55
I think so. No, no, no.
19:56
Go right ahead. Go ahead.
19:57
Oh, I was going to add, I think yeah, it's.
20:00
I mean, the premise of the book ended up being like, what is it
20:02
about BDSM that makes people so happy?
20:05
And there's community, there's the ability to be authentic, the
20:09
ability to kind of break these strict norms about gender and
20:14
how we're supposed to be. But there's also, like, it
20:18
allows you to exercise your creativity, which I think is
20:21
something that, like, humans are happier when they can be
20:23
creative. Humans are happier when they can
20:25
like connect with other people. And it just kind of incorporates
20:30
all these different things into it that it's kind of like, we
20:34
call it like a blueprint, Like there's like here, just like
20:37
live your life this way. And it incorporates all these
20:39
different things about life that like, makes people happy in
20:43
general or usually makes typically makes people happy.
20:46
Right. Yeah.
20:49
So I think that's. Yeah.
20:50
That did end up becoming the book is like, what is it Like, I
20:53
remember we were talking at one point, Alicia was like, I don't
20:55
know what the story of this book is.
20:57
Like, I don't have anything except that they're really,
20:59
really happy. And I'm like, well, maybe maybe
21:02
that's. And that did end up being the
21:04
story. It's like, what is it that makes
21:06
humans happy? And what is it that BDSM kind of
21:08
has built into it? But like, sexual pleasure is
21:12
also part of it too, I think. But yeah, I think the the
21:17
ability to like live authentically and talk to people
21:20
and be your like true authentic self and have that community is
21:24
also really important parts of it.
21:27
You know, I, I throw lifestyle parties probably 7 to 10 times a
21:32
year. And when I host these parties, I
21:35
always get like vendors that will come that are in the
21:38
lifestyle and I will get, you know, entertainers that are part
21:44
of the lifestyle. Anyone that is kind of, you
21:47
know, under that umbrella of BDSM, I try to bring them
21:51
together. And I have gotten people that
21:53
have just come from all over the states for some of these events.
21:58
And I, it's flattering. It really is.
22:01
It's just, to me, it's just an incredible thing that people can
22:04
really just come together without judgement.
22:08
And like you said it, it really is so fulfilling for them that
22:12
they can express who they are. I said, you know, it's very sex
22:15
positive and people are just kind of like they're kind of
22:21
awestruck at 1st and just kind of dumbfounded because it's like
22:24
really, we can, we can do that here, you know, But we, we leave
22:28
the dungeon open and, and people just come and they just enjoy
22:31
every aspect of different things of the, of the party, whether
22:35
it's, you know, the drag show or the fire show or the, the, the
22:39
vendors, you know, selling paddles and whips and, and
22:43
seeing scenes. And we'll do like demos, you
22:45
know, rope demos and, and that kind of thing.
22:47
So it, it really is, it's so much fun.
22:50
And like you said, we're in this time where it's like we have to
22:53
be guarded and, and we're lonely at times.
22:57
And when people, you know, they don't have anyone to reach out
22:59
and really express themselves, it's just a sad thing.
23:03
So it's just a great thing that we can all be together and, you
23:07
know, experience the joys of, you know, human sexuality, you
23:10
know, without, without so many limitations, you know, But
23:16
Ariel, you said that you, you taught, you've been teaching
23:19
about sexuality, obviously for 20 years about this and, and the
23:24
kinks and everything else. Now, did you all watch the show
23:27
Bonded? I did not.
23:31
OK, Well, I think when Alicia mentioned that, a lot of her
23:35
students were asking about, you know, writing about BDSM.
23:41
So there is a character, it's a show on Netflix and it's just a
23:48
a funny little drama, but it it's wait, I.
23:52
Have I have seen some of this? I think I've seen a few
23:54
episodes. Anyway, yeah, sorry I didn't
23:57
recognize the the title, but yeah, yeah, I did see a.
24:00
Little bit of it. So just in case the listeners
24:03
don't know. So it's she was a psych major,
24:05
she goes she's studying psychology and she's a college
24:09
student, but at the same time she's a professional dominatrix
24:13
and she doesn't necessarily work at a specific dungeon of her
24:16
own. I think she has like she goes to
24:18
rented space dungeon, but then she'll do a lot of outcall and
24:21
everything else. But she kind of talks about,
24:24
well, not really talks about, but a lot of the episodes are
24:27
about different genres. And it's just, it's the funniest
24:31
thing. It really is.
24:33
And it's, it's funny because after me doing this for 30
24:36
years, I always think like, is there really something else that
24:40
I don't know about? But I, you know, but I'm getting
24:44
ready to interview this gentleman.
24:46
And he's been a client and I interviewed him quite some time
24:49
ago and he was a little shy kind of about putting himself out
24:54
there. But he's, he's an absolute doll.
24:57
He's such a sweetheart. But his kink and I never
25:00
experienced this before was the rubber balls.
25:04
They're, they're those rubber bouncy balls and they make them
25:08
adult size. But what's interesting is a lot
25:12
of them, they actually have insertable like penis inserts,
25:19
like vaginal type inserts in the structure of these bouncy balls.
25:24
And so one of my associates who's in the dungeon with me,
25:28
Liv, she she's a doll. But he's like, yeah, Madam Liv,
25:33
I just want to go out by the pool and I want you to bounce on
25:36
the bouncy ball for me. So here she is in her bikini,
25:41
and she's like, this is the easiest session I've ever done.
25:47
So, you know, in just, in just in your studies and you all
25:53
being professors, obviously it's like, do you think everyone has
25:58
a kink? I don't know if everyone has
26:00
something that rises to the level of kink, but I think
26:03
everyone has a little something, you know, like I have a hand
26:07
thing, you know, like how somebody's hands look could be
26:13
like a big turn on or turn off, you know, like like it would, it
26:20
would be challenging for me to be really attracted to someone
26:23
that I thought had not attractive hands, which is like
26:25
weird that I'm just a little strange side.
26:28
Is it like hands? Hands like vascular like hands?
26:32
Pretty hands. Men and women's hands, Yeah, no,
26:38
it's just a certain like and, and some of it maybe I think I
26:42
do not have attractive hands. So it could be something about
26:45
projection. I really don't even know like
26:47
where and as you would like the shape, like the shape of the
26:52
hands and and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for
26:55
sure. So I think probably everyone has
26:58
something, maybe not doesn't rise to the level of kink, but
27:03
they have a little something. What do you think?
27:05
Are you? She's like, I'm not telling you
27:08
about my hand fetish, but yeah. You.
27:13
Know, I think a lot of people, I mean, I'm not going to say like
27:17
100% of people have like a kink or something, but I think a lot
27:21
more than you would expect yeah. And I know what I do.
27:27
We haven't done like a kink survey.
27:28
Maybe I should do that. But I do like anonymous surveys
27:31
of my students sometimes in class and like, I don't know, my
27:37
class is now like over 70% queer and I mean so.
27:45
Yeah, right. Yeah, no.
27:48
And whenever we talk about anything, I always have students
27:50
come up to talk to me after class and like, or even like
27:54
writing this book. So many people have come out to
27:57
me as BDSM practitioners. Just this weekend alone, I had
28:00
two different people come out to me at like, I went to a show and
28:04
ran into some people and they were like, oh, you just wrote a
28:06
book about BDSM. Like me and my late husband
28:10
lived in like a 24/7 like dominant submissive arrangement.
28:15
And I was like OK cool. Like I hope you told.
28:17
Them to buy the book, right? For most, that book are real.
28:22
Geez. No, but like a lot of people
28:27
since writing this book have like come out to me as BDSM
28:30
practitioners who I wouldn't. I mean, as I said, it's hard to
28:35
shock me, but it's like, it's not necessarily like the people
28:38
you would expect. Yeah, 'cause you, you think
28:42
they're going to look different, you know?
28:43
Yeah, you think they're? Going to be like goth and have a
28:45
lot. Of yeah.
28:47
Do something, but they're not like, they're just like typical
28:52
people. Well, you know, it's funny
28:54
because I've met swingers, you know, within the last 10-12
28:57
years and they said, well, you know, whenever 50 Shades of Grey
29:01
came out, that's when we really thought, oh, we could try to be
29:04
a swinger. We could try to go into that.
29:07
But growing up, I can remember the only BDSM movies, the story
29:11
of oh, which is to me is OK. And then the secretary, which to
29:15
me was a beautiful story. I love that, that movie.
29:17
That was that was the thing. It just like it always felt like
29:20
a bad stigma because I mean, they made her look crazy.
29:22
She was mental health and then then we had like 8mm with
29:26
Nicolas Cage in the 90s. It was like CD and made BDSM
29:30
just look like really dark. And so I think we just kind of
29:35
get stuck in our minds, like, but then Christian Grey came out
29:38
and Christian Grey is like, hot. Yeah, I feel like my first
29:42
encounters with BDSM was like Buffy the Vampire Slayer kind of
29:46
scenes and Stephen King books. Like there was Gerald's Game
29:53
where I don't know if you read that, but where he like,
29:56
handcuffs her to the bed and then dogs or something or yeah.
30:00
So yeah, I've read that in like middle school.
30:04
So that was like my first, yeah. I'm like, that was the first
30:07
time I really encountered BDSM. So there was like media stuff.
30:10
And yeah, that was probably like the early 90s that I first read
30:14
that. But yeah, there was some stuff,
30:18
but it was it was more like a joke or even today, like there
30:22
was an SNL Saturday Night Live episode recently where they had
30:27
Keenan Tom Thompson or Thomas or whatever his name is, the guy
30:31
who's been on forever talking about he's like doing only fans
30:36
and like sitting on a birthday cake.
30:38
But it was like a joke. Like the, yeah, like the, it's
30:42
usually shown as like the bad guy or like the, you know, the,
30:47
like the villain of the episode or the joke of the episode or
30:51
something like that. It's not shown in like a very
30:53
positive light. And I think 50 Shades, I
30:56
remember in 50 Shades of Grey, the book came out and I, I
31:00
remember someone reading it next to me on the train and I was
31:03
kind of like reading over their shoulder, like, what is this
31:05
book they're reading right next to me?
31:08
Now, see, when that came out, I remember I had a bunch of
31:10
students in my social sexuality class who were BDSM
31:14
practitioners who were raised in hell about 50 Shades and how
31:18
inaccurate it was and how much they hated it.
31:20
So I never ended up reading it. But have you seen the recent
31:23
Hulu show, The Dying for Sex show?
31:26
It's actually, yeah. It's actually based on a true
31:28
story about this woman who was on a quest to have an orgasm
31:33
with a partner before she dies of cancer.
31:36
It sounds really uplifting. It actually was though, in like
31:40
a weird way, but I think that was the most realistic portrayal
31:46
I think I've ever seen. Probably because it was based on
31:49
a true story. It's like an 8 episode limited
31:52
series kind of thing. Completely worth the time.
31:55
But yeah, it's not like making fun of it and not positioning
31:59
anybody as like a villain or anything like that.
32:01
So it really stands out because of what you're describing, which
32:06
I think is the norm, yeah. Yeah, 50 Shades of Grey.
32:10
It, there was this one scene at the very beginning, kind of like
32:13
already engaged with, you know, going out and seeing each other
32:16
and, you know, you took her to the infamous Red Room.
32:19
But he has her on the bed and he attaches A spreader bar to her
32:23
ankles and he flips her over and she's, you know, a hundred, 120
32:27
a 130 lbs. And I'm like, Oh my God, don't
32:29
do that. Gonna break her ankles.
32:30
You know, that's what I'm thinking in my mind.
32:32
But I mean, I know it wasn't accurate, but it just put it in
32:35
a sexy light for people. And that's what I, I try to keep
32:38
the positive with people on it. But I remember Exit to Eden,
32:43
that was another one. Rosie O'Donnell, Dan Aykroyd.
32:45
That was early what, early 90s, late 80s?
32:49
But great, funny movie. And again, it makes fun of BDSM.
32:53
So it's just like, come on, people.
32:55
Hollywood could do. Better Hollywood always likes
32:58
things that are, like, tawdry. And what's more tawdry than
33:03
alternative sex, right? Exactly, exactly.
33:08
But fun times it really is. It's interesting.
33:12
So do you all see a Part 2 to this to the book?
33:17
I think we're working on other projects now.
33:21
One of the things we're collecting data on now is
33:23
polyamory, so polyamorous relationships, and I think
33:27
that's going to be our next big book.
33:30
Other than we're also writing like a textbook about sex,
33:35
which, yeah, that's not really like a research study.
33:38
No, it's OK. It's all right.
33:40
Well, we have a lot of articles coming out though from this.
33:44
From this data, I could definitely see a project in the
33:47
future about female Doms. We did not.
33:51
I don't know about in the survey, but in the interviews I
33:55
think I only talked to maybe 8 of them.
33:57
So I could definitely see a future project that just focused
34:00
on female Doms. Yeah, we have a few other
34:03
articles we're working on getting out now.
34:05
One looks more into community participation and who benefits
34:10
the most from BDSM communities. We have one that's like floors
34:15
more about the masculinity and how men use BDSM to kind of
34:20
break these ideas about gender. So yeah, we have a few other
34:25
articles that are going to be more like scientific journal
34:28
type articles, not a whole book, but we definitely have.
34:31
I feel like we have like 5 in progress and I can't even keep
34:34
track of them anymore. It's a lot of data.
34:39
So, well, let me tell you. So if you're doing your research
34:43
on the polyamory topic here, the actual person who coined the
34:48
term was Morning Glory. You know this, right?
34:52
And I just happened to have Oberon Zell's private phone
34:55
number. And but he was married to
34:58
Morning Glory and they actually had a, a commune of people
35:02
together. And he is a brilliant, brilliant
35:06
man. I did an interview with him a
35:09
few years ago. I was actually going to do
35:11
another interview with him. I think he kind of likes me and
35:14
I kind of like him. But he's brilliant.
35:17
He has, he has his doctorate in psychology.
35:20
He has written, Oh my goodness, probably 1212 to 20 books.
35:25
I mean, it's, it's incredible. They have, they have a lot of
35:32
merch of him because he's, you know, this, he looks like a
35:35
wizard. He's just a cool old sexy man,
35:39
you know? He's.
35:41
Great, he's great, but and his late wife sounded like just an
35:46
absolute sweetheart. And you know, he was talking
35:49
about the concept of being Polly and how you know when you are in
35:54
a relationship, how not everyone in your in your relationship
35:58
within you know, two people can can meet all of your needs.
36:02
And at the time, I was kind of like, come on, This is why you
36:07
marry your spouse. You know, they got to meet every
36:09
need. Come on, you know, and you don't
36:11
want to think that. But then when you talk to him
36:14
more about it, he was just, it's very enlightening.
36:18
He's a very enlightened man. He's he's really, he's
36:22
incredible. Oberyn is a wonderful man.
36:25
I think Alicia has actually written a little bit about that
36:28
because she wrote a couple of books on infidelity, so non
36:31
consensual, non monogamy. And that was something she
36:35
talked about. I remember reading in one of
36:37
your books, Alicia, about how we put all this stuff on an
36:41
individual marriage to like meet every single one of your needs
36:44
and they're supposed to be your best friend and everything else
36:47
in your whole life. And it's a lot for one person.
36:51
Yeah. It really has.
36:53
It's amazing. I know I've, I've dealt with
36:56
that myself and my husband's amazing.
36:59
But sometimes he thinks he can meet every need as much as he
37:02
wants to. And I'm like, honey, that's the
37:04
sub in you. That's it.
37:05
Your little sub, you know, But you know, I love the BDSM
37:13
lifestyle. I really love it.
37:15
And it is, it is. I could not be without it.
37:19
You know, a lot of people, they, we have this little thing within
37:23
the community will say, you know, are you purging more or
37:26
less? Like, are you getting rid of all
37:28
your things and throwing BDSM away?
37:30
And a lot of people, you know, they do that.
37:33
Whether it's, you know, crossdressers, whether it's
37:36
just, you know, people who are active participants, whether
37:39
it's, you know, Dom Subs, doesn't matter.
37:41
There's a point where someone has to give it up for some
37:45
reason, whether it's, you know, their own personal guilt or
37:49
relationships and they get something, get into something
37:52
new and they just their partner doesn't want anything to do with
37:54
it. That happened to me years ago.
37:58
But but a lot of people, they'll say, you know, I got to, you
38:01
know, purge my things and, you know, they'll get online and
38:03
they'll, you know, sell their stuff.
38:05
And it's just, it's sad to see because they always come back.
38:08
Because in actuality, it's so cathartic in your life that when
38:11
you find your peace with it, you'll never leave.
38:14
Yeah. So you said this happened to you
38:16
a few years ago? What?
38:17
This happened years ago when I was first married.
38:20
I college, high school. I knew when I was 13 years old
38:25
that I wanted to be a dominatrix.
38:27
And, you know, I went to school, went to college, just kind of
38:29
pushed it down. And then I started, you know,
38:32
pimping out my boyfriend and, you know, created my own
38:37
dungeon, you know, in my early 20s and, and started seeing
38:41
clients years ago. But when I got married, he was
38:44
very vanilla. And we, we kind of met on other
38:49
levels outside of BDSM. And, you know, I, I started a
38:54
family business and I started, I continued on with my, with my
38:58
degree. And, you know, you just kind of
39:00
brushed it aside and I thought, well, maybe I could live without
39:02
it. And, you know, I went without
39:04
BDSM for, you know, six years too long.
39:07
So it happens. But I get a lot of
39:09
crossdressers. They'll come and they'll bring
39:11
me all of their belongings because they don't, they don't
39:14
want to deal with it anymore. Or they'll get in a relationship
39:17
and they're like, she's not going to understand.
39:18
I got to purge all my stuff, you know, it's, it's just sad to
39:22
see, you know, yeah, I had this guy and, and he's a rubberist,
39:27
you know, and he, he brought me his latex back bed.
39:30
He brought me all of his rubber and, you know, latex gear and
39:33
all his stuff. And he had hormones he was
39:35
taking. And, you know, it's like, I'm
39:36
like, well, I'm not going to take your hormones, but I'll
39:38
take everything. So it, it's just funny, but it's
39:41
sad at the same time. But but yeah, I.
39:44
Feel like that could be a study all all in itself, you know?
39:47
Like, yeah, it really could. It can be one of my very good
39:51
friends. She wrote her thesis on her
39:54
crossdresser husband. They have an open relationship.
39:58
He has no desire really to be with other women.
40:02
But, you know, I think he would. I think he crosses into, you
40:05
know, bisexuality. He's just not, you know,
40:08
obviously telling everyone about.
40:09
He's very secretive. But even even then, you know, I
40:14
keep bringing up crossdressers, but but you know.
40:18
It's it's like it's just that one part of BDSM where when
40:24
they're true to themselves, being a crossdresser, they don't
40:27
like to age. And when they start to age and
40:30
their looks start to fade and they could no longer be pretty,
40:32
that's when it's kind of like it's done.
40:35
It's sad. It's sad.
40:38
Yeah. I don't know.
40:39
I just kind of see different things about different people in
40:41
the kink community. I think, you know, it's our
40:45
biggest thing to and you know, I try to be an advocate for
40:49
people, but you know, being a Dom, I never try to dominate
40:53
over anyone. It has to be, you know, I have
40:56
to talk to them, I have to know them, I have to gauge with them.
41:00
And a lot of people, they really have this misconstrued idea that
41:04
just because they're a Dom, they can be dominant over everyone
41:07
and kind of be disrespectful. And so a lot of submissives,
41:11
they go through a lot of really kind of personal attacks from
41:16
people in the community that that really kind of mistreat
41:20
them, you know, and take advantage of them.
41:22
So a lot of me sub females go through it and it's, it's much
41:25
more difficult for them to actually find a partner because
41:27
a lot of times they'll just find overpowering dominant male who,
41:32
you know, takes advantage. It's it's a sad situation.
41:35
But. Anywho, I, I, I'm really going
41:38
to enjoy your book and I'm going to share it with other people
41:41
and, and pass on to to everyone because like, we're in 190
41:45
countries, so they need to buy the book.
41:46
Bound by BDSM, unexpected lessons for building a happier
41:49
life, and Alicia Ariel again. It's been a pleasure.
41:55
Thanks for. Having us, Yeah.
41:56
Thank you so much. And if you want to be in contact
41:58
with Oberon, I'll certainly pass along his info so you can reach
42:01
out to him. He's a wonderful man.
42:03
He sounds like it. Yes.
42:05
So until then, I will say this has been the latest episode of
42:10
Call Me a Mistress.