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Christian Zionism | Gary & Mondo · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Speaker 2: Hello Gary Steerman of Prophecy Watchers with me Mando Gonzalez Mando.
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Speaker 2: We are going to talk about a hot subject today.
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Speaker 2: The subject is Christian Zionism.
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Speaker 1: Yes, and I think we need to, uh, We're going
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Speaker 1: to start right out of the gate in some of
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Speaker 1: these Gary and just give some definitions because what we're seeing,
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Speaker 1: certainly in the media ever since October seventh, it's been
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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three. It's kind of interesting. Israel has
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Speaker 1: got to the forefront because of their response to the
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Speaker 1: two again to the atrocities that happened against Israel by
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Speaker 1: Hamas on that day. And of course now what we're
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Speaker 1: seeing is people are throwing around this phrase. We saw
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Speaker 1: we saw this with Tucker Carlson. We've seen it with
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Speaker 1: some with Candae Owens and others who are talking about
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Speaker 1: Christian Zionism. And I was at a conference this last
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Speaker 1: weekend and I heard somebody say that there are only
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Speaker 1: two false doctrines, and one of them is Christian Zionism
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Speaker 1: and the other one is the preacher rapture. And I thought, wow,
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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I'm a false doctrine, which I
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Speaker 1: don't believe is the case, but I think later, can
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Speaker 1: I just I'll set the stage here, Gary, because and
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Speaker 1: then because of that conversation, I was talking to another
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Speaker 1: person and they had made the comment about Christian Zionism
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Speaker 1: to me, and they said, well, are you a Christian Zionist?
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Speaker 1: And I said, whenever somebody asked that question about anything,
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Speaker 1: are you a Calvinist, are you an Armenian? Are you Presbyterian?
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Speaker 1: The first thing I always say is, well, what do
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Speaker 1: you mean by that? What's your definition? And so when
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Speaker 1: I said what do you mean by Christian Zionism, because
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Speaker 1: I want to know where you're coming from, he goes, well,
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Speaker 1: to me, Christian Zionism is that Israel can do whatever
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Speaker 1: it wants. It can kill women and children, everything, and
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Speaker 1: as a Christian I have to support that. And I go, well,
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Speaker 1: then I'm certainly not a Christian Zionist if that is
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Speaker 1: your definition. And what we've been seeing, Gary, is the
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Speaker 1: lack of again specificity. People are not nuancing this on
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Speaker 1: both sides of the equation. Christians like again here we
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Speaker 1: have Ted Cruz with Tucker, and when he was pressed
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Speaker 1: on why, he brought up Genesis twelve three, which we'll discuss.
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Speaker 1: But then when he was pressed further, he had not
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Speaker 1: really thought this through, and so he defaulted back. And
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Speaker 1: I'm going to criticize him in one sense that he
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Speaker 1: should have not brought it up if he was not
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Speaker 1: prepared to really address the very particulars of what Genesis
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Speaker 1: twelve three means. He ended up he ended up looking
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Speaker 1: foolish on his part, and he ended up making anybody
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Speaker 1: else that would possibly subscribe to Christian Zionism look foolish.
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Speaker 2: Also, I have a question for you, is Israel Zion?
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Speaker 1: Well, I think you could look in scripture that Zion
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Speaker 1: is specifically is a play right, and it's it's but
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Speaker 1: it's it's personified ultimately as Jerusalem. And then throughout the Psalms,
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Speaker 1: it's Israels.
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Speaker 2: One thirty seven, verse one, by the rivers of Babylon,
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Speaker 2: we were we sat down, yay, we wept when we
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Speaker 2: remembered Zion. What were they remembering? Zion is obviously something
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Speaker 2: very real to them from that day to this day,
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Speaker 2: and people speak of Zion, and there are a lot
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Speaker 2: of people who don't want to have that connection made.
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Speaker 2: They don't want Israel to be Zion because that's that's biblical. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: and I think that's maybe what powers the whole argument.
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Speaker 1: Well, it's it's so true because it's undeniable that Zion
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Speaker 1: again appears in the Bible as you just reference over
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Speaker 1: and over and it becomes it becomes symbolic of the
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Speaker 1: glory of Israel, you know, with God at the center. Sure,
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Speaker 1: and so they're remembering for example, probably the best illustration
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Speaker 1: of this, one of the high points would be when
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Speaker 1: Solomon dedicated to temple and he's praying and God was
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Speaker 1: very he was glorified. There was a lot of sacrifices
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Speaker 1: that were going on, and God was glorified, and the
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Speaker 1: eyes the people they at that moment there was less
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Speaker 1: let's say that there was none less idolatry. God was glorified.
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Speaker 1: And so people have this image of Zion, but specifically
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Speaker 1: referring to Jerusalem and its broader category of kingdom mindedness
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Speaker 1: for example, again in the land of Israel. And you know,
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Speaker 1: I'm just going to put it right out of the gate,
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Speaker 1: is that I think I've seen I've seen errors on
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Speaker 1: both sides Gary in this. I've seen those that are
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Speaker 1: in we're kind of the replacement Thelogians. I'm talking about Christians,
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Speaker 1: and I've seen them being can they they can become
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Speaker 1: anti Zionist or anti Israel modern Israel. We'll talk about
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Speaker 1: that a minute. And then on the other side you
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Speaker 1: have Christians that have been raised Ted Cruz. But he
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Speaker 1: said when I was a kid in church, Genesis twelve three.
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Speaker 1: So now he has this idea, and some Christians are
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Speaker 1: so pro Israel that I think that's too a fault.
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Speaker 1: Can you be too prosal I say, absolutely you can,
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Speaker 1: but we needed to find that.
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Speaker 2: Sure. Now let me read this before you begin that definition,
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Speaker 2: Doctor A. Matthew Movig. We both have his investigation. I
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Speaker 2: don't know what you call it, but an explanation of
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Speaker 2: what modern Zionism happens to be. And he opens with
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Speaker 2: During a recent interview at Tucker Carlson, US, Senator Ted
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Speaker 2: Cruz displayed not only alarming geopolitical ignorance, but a brazen
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Speaker 2: willingness to distort scripture. Now that says it all. It
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Speaker 2: puts it right out there where you can talk about it.
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Speaker 2: But when I think about geopolitics, reading my Bible, thinking
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Speaker 2: about Israel, ancient Israel, and regathered Israel today, zion is
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Speaker 2: Zion in my mind and certainly it is in theirs.
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Speaker 1: Yes, And his title is how Christian Zionism distorts Scripture
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Speaker 1: to serve Empire, Why America's blessed Israel obsession risks the Church,
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Speaker 1: the world and the truth. So I don't really know
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Speaker 1: much about doctor Matthew here, but if you read this article,
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Speaker 1: you can tell that he has his own bias, yes,
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Speaker 1: but he does bring up some fair points, which again,
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Speaker 1: the goal in anything is to be able to understand
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Speaker 1: both sides of the perspective and to find a you know,
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Speaker 1: the truth. You have two extremes. Again, I think there's
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Speaker 1: two extremes in the church. I think there's extreme anti
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Speaker 1: Israel and I think there's extreme pro Israel. But the
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Speaker 1: goal is to define what that means. And you know
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Speaker 1: one of the books that we have here that doctor
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Speaker 1: Tommy Tommy Ice, he wrote a book called Christian Zionism,
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Speaker 1: The Case for Zionism, and so you know he he
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Speaker 1: comes from it from his perspective of the scripture for sure.
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Speaker 1: But let's let's let's talk about this definition so that
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Speaker 1: we can all understand what it means. There on page
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Speaker 1: twenty eight, you want to read that Gary just the Zionism,
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Speaker 1: just just the first paragraph on the Zionism part, because
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Speaker 1: there's Christian Zionism. Let's just talk about Zionism in general.
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Speaker 2: Zionism is understood to mean a modern Jewish movement aiming
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Speaker 2: at resettlement in the Land of Israel and the revival
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Speaker 2: of an independent Jewish nation. Obviously, the word Zionism is
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Speaker 2: derived from the Biblical word Zion, used one hundred and
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Speaker 2: sixty three times in the Bible, one hundred and fifty
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Speaker 2: six in the Old Testament and seven times in the
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Speaker 2: New Testament. So we have here a biblical establishment of Zion.
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Speaker 2: All this left is to define it. Yes, And by
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Speaker 2: the way, that's not easy.
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Speaker 1: If you look out like with pieces like this or
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Speaker 1: again these other people, they have muddied the waters. Where
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Speaker 1: I think it actually is pretty straightforward, because one of
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Speaker 1: the things that Tommy I says here is that as
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Speaker 1: you read in Psalm one to thirty seven, they were
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Speaker 1: longing for the homeland they were in Babylon, so they're longing,
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Speaker 1: and so you have this longing over the last two
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Speaker 1: thousand years, roughly between the time that Israel was kicked
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Speaker 1: out of the land in seventy eighty so that being
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Speaker 1: the case, the Jews wherever God scattered them, because they
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Speaker 1: were it was a judgment for their rejection of Jesus.
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Speaker 1: That's very clear. We see that in the mini pas
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Speaker 1: Luke twenty one, Luke nineteen. But as they were scattered,
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Speaker 1: they longed to come back to the homeland. Okay, So
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Speaker 1: with Theodore Hertzel in eighteen eighty seven, as he begins
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Speaker 1: to try to regather the idea of returning to the homeland,
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Speaker 1: which again is in the land of Israel what we
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Speaker 1: call the Levant, the Middle East, et cetera. But remember
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Speaker 1: he was not religious. Theodore Herzel was not a religious man.
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Speaker 1: So for him, it wasn't this religious thing. It was just, hey,
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Speaker 1: let's let's bring the Jews back, because he recognized that
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Speaker 1: throughout church history, or not even church history, for the
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Speaker 1: last two thousand years, the Jews had a lot of struggle.
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Speaker 1: Mostly everywhere they went, they were ostracized, there was a
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Speaker 1: lot of pilgrims, there's you know, of course, we know
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Speaker 1: that this was before World War two, even in eighteen
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Speaker 1: ninety seven, so he's just thinking, let's get a homeland
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Speaker 1: where the Jews can come back to where they were,
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Speaker 1: and in fact, this is kind of funny in one sense.
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Speaker 1: He didn't even care if it was in the land
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Speaker 1: of Israel, as that we know it, he said, what
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Speaker 1: about He even was willing to take it into you
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Speaker 1: in Uganda. Okay, So the Jews could come back as
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Speaker 1: long as they have their own homeland. Okay. But let's
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Speaker 1: let's let's go to Christian Zionism for a minute, because
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Speaker 1: he says tom I says today Zionism encompasses anyone, for
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Speaker 1: any reason, desiring to see the nation of Israel continue
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Speaker 1: as a Jewish state and to prosper. Okay, So that's
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Speaker 1: kind of the generic Zionism. But would you mind reading
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Speaker 1: the Christian Zionism definition.
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Speaker 2: Christian Zionism is a religious belief among some gentiles of
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Speaker 2: the Christian faith that the return of the Jews to
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Speaker 2: the Holy Land and the restoration of a physical Israel
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Speaker 2: is in accordance with biblical prophecy. And here we end
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Speaker 2: on two interesting words, biblical prophecy, because we are prophecy watchers,
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Speaker 2: we're very interested in prophecy, and so our view of
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Speaker 2: Zionism is going to be based on that, wouldn't you say?
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Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely? And it's not even so much that we are.
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Speaker 1: We're creating it because this is something that we believe
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Speaker 1: that God was doing, regardless of what Evangelical Christians, because
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Speaker 1: Evangelical Christians back then weren't necessarily Zionist. Zionism as a
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Speaker 1: definition now looks back at what God has done and says, Okay,
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Speaker 1: how do we do this? And it says he says. Furthermore,
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Speaker 1: Christian Zionism is motivated by a biblically based religious conviction
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Speaker 1: that the Jewish people are still God's chosen people and
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Speaker 1: are entitled to possess the land of Israel for all time.
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Speaker 1: This belief is based on specific interpretation of scripture. Goes
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Speaker 1: on and on and on. But the key thing there,
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Speaker 1: and this is important, Gary, is still God's chosen people. Now.
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Speaker 1: I was talking to somebody again this last weekend and
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Speaker 1: we were talking about is Israel, is the nation Israel,
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Speaker 1: even modern Israel today? Are they God's chosen people? And
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Speaker 1: I said, of course. But and then immediately he said,
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Speaker 1: but look at the way that they live. And I said,
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Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute, are you are you
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Speaker 1: confusing the idea of chosenness as being saved? And he goes, well, yeah,
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Speaker 1: And I go whoa. If you look at it, and
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Speaker 1: I said, listen, this is where I think we're living
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Speaker 1: in biblical days, Gary, because if you go back to
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Speaker 1: the Book of Judges, there, okay, they were in the
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Speaker 1: land their God's chosen people. It says in those days
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Speaker 1: there was no king in Israel, and everybody did what
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Speaker 1: was right in their own eyes exactly. And you go
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Speaker 1: to Judges, you know, sixteen, and they're cutting up cancubines
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Speaker 1: and pieces and sending them around. I mean, it's you
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Speaker 1: just read the Book of Judge. You're like, oh wow,
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Speaker 1: but you look at how wicked and evil and just
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Speaker 1: lost these individuals were, these Jewish people, But they were
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Speaker 1: still God's chosen people. All chosen means is separated. Yes,
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Speaker 1: they're designated, and they were God's people. They were in
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Speaker 1: a covenant relationship with them, But it doesn't mean the
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Speaker 1: individuals were saved.
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Speaker 2: They didn't respond to the covenant.
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Speaker 1: No, they didn't live up. They didn't live up to
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Speaker 1: the covenant.
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Speaker 2: And but God did not break the covent.
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Speaker 1: And that was my next question is did God cast
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Speaker 1: off his people back then because they were wicked? No?
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Speaker 1: When when even when Assyria came and took the Northern
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Speaker 1: Kingdom in seven twenty two BC. Did they get cast
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Speaker 1: off as No, they he took him out of the land,
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Speaker 1: but they never lost their separateness or their chosenness. But
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Speaker 1: again that's the problem. So when when it says here
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Speaker 1: they have a religious Christian Zionists believe that God the
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Speaker 1: Jewish people are still God's chosen people, that doesn't mean
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Speaker 1: that they're saved. It means that the promises are still theirs.
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Speaker 1: And we're going to unpack this a little bit. So
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Speaker 1: let me let me would you be willing to do
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Speaker 1: did look at that Gary and read that for us?
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Speaker 2: Because what are you speaking of there?
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Speaker 1: Page twenty nine. There there's nine things.
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Speaker 2: Christian Zionism Thomas Ice, he says, properly defined incorporates the
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Speaker 2: following key elements. Number one, a clear biblical distinction between
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Speaker 2: Israel and the Church. Number two any moment pre tribulation
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Speaker 2: rapture of the Church. That is a hot issue right now.
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Speaker 2: Number three return of Jews to the land. Well we've
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Speaker 2: seen that. Number four the rebuilding of the Temple. You
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Speaker 2: wrote your Red Heifer books and talked about all of
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Speaker 2: the plans to rebuild the temple. And then number five
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Speaker 2: the rise of the Antichrist. Is the Antichrist alive today?
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Speaker 2: By the way, you don't have to answer that. But
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Speaker 2: these are the things that we're talking about that make
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Speaker 2: a difference in how we look at Israel. A seven
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Speaker 2: year period known as the Great Tribulation, Salvation of the Jews,
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Speaker 2: the return of Christ to Jerusalem, and finally number nine
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Speaker 2: thousand year reign of Christ on Earth. And during that
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Speaker 2: thousand years we have the twelve tribes back in the land.
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Speaker 2: So there it is the topic of Zionism, which is
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Speaker 2: a huge topic.
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Speaker 1: And I would say too that Tommy Ice is quoting
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Speaker 1: another English scholar here, but that generally speaking, yes, generally speaking,
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Speaker 1: Christian Zionism includes all those distinctives, but I don't think
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Speaker 1: that it's required all those because some might not believe
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Speaker 1: in a preacher but still be Christian Zionist. Christian Zionism
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Speaker 1: ultimately is I'll summarize it in a couple things. Number one,
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Speaker 1: that the promises that God gave to Abraham, Isaac and
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Speaker 1: Jacob based on Genesis twelve three, I will bless those
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Speaker 1: who bless you noble cursos that curse you, which was
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Speaker 1: reaffirmed to Isaac in Genesis twenty seven to twenty nine. Yes,
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Speaker 1: it was reaffirmed to Jacob in numbers twenty four verse nine,
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Speaker 1: So three times this, I will bless those who bless you,
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Speaker 1: and I will curse those that curse you. Okay, So
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Speaker 1: you have this general blessing, which is a big deal
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Speaker 1: in this article.
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Speaker 2: The guy right, And could I just add that Jacob
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Speaker 2: wrestled with the angel and his name must change to
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Speaker 2: Israel Israel. There's something special about that name.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And so again we have God's promises to these patriarchs, Abraham,
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Speaker 1: Issac and Jacob. And then of course you could if
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Speaker 1: you wanted to, you can include the twelve, the twelve
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Speaker 1: fathers of the tribes as patriarchs. But the Christians Items
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Speaker 1: says this, God's promises to national Israel are still in
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Speaker 1: force and the land is still theirs. Okay, so that's
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Speaker 1: that's the minimum of what you have even to this day.
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Speaker 1: So yes, they're in rejection of Jesus, we understand that,
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Speaker 1: but those promises still remain there. So Christians Items, and
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Speaker 1: also I would say this, and it believes that there
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Speaker 1: is a future for National Israel at some point, most
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Speaker 1: likely during the millennial period. Where Israel's going to be
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Speaker 1: regathered and in righteousness God's going to save, wrote Romans
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Speaker 1: eleven twenty six. After the church age is over all
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Speaker 1: Israel will be saved, and so God is going to
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Speaker 1: do this new thing for national Israel. So the problem
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Speaker 1: that I see with many people is they have a
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Speaker 1: failure to understand Romans nine, ten and eleven. But again,
17:36
Speaker 1: so let me let me bring this up, Gary, because
17:39
Speaker 1: I've been doing you know, I've been given you know,
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Speaker 1: lots of presentations different places. You know, I feel very
17:45
Speaker 1: honored to do that. But one of the things that
17:47
Speaker 1: I've been talking a lot about really for about the
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Speaker 1: last year, is I begin to see this, this crack
17:53
Speaker 1: that's happening in the church. I love the church. I
17:56
Speaker 1: love I love dispensational, It's covenant, Thelogians. I mean, we're
17:59
Speaker 1: a lot, there are brothers and sisters. Okay, sure, But
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Speaker 1: what I began to see was this crack based on
18:06
Speaker 1: you know, again some of the people I cantas Own
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Speaker 1: and others who have become very anti modern Isral And
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Speaker 1: as they are doing this, the church is now going, well,
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Speaker 1: how do we respond to this? How to respond to this?
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Speaker 1: Because like Ted Cruz. He's saying, well, I'm supposed to
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Speaker 1: bless Israel because I want to be blessed and so
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Speaker 1: and then others are like that. Again, maybe they're more
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Speaker 1: of a covenant theologian or replacement the eologian, where they
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Speaker 1: have said, no, everything's fulfilled in Christ.
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Speaker 2: Now, by the way, let me interrupt just a second.
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Speaker 2: That promise I'll bless those who bless you is quite
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Speaker 2: scriptural and a very prominent idea that runs all the
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Speaker 2: way through the Bible. And people, even if they are
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Speaker 2: not theologians, occasional attenders of church, they've heard that somewhere.
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Speaker 2: They've heard I'll bless those who bless you, all curse
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Speaker 2: those who curse you. And it's stuck. And it does
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Speaker 2: make a difference whether whether or not that is true.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt. And this is this is a default
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Speaker 1: of what's happening. Like in this article, this guy says, well, okay,
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Speaker 1: if that's true, and as America blesses Israel, let's say
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Speaker 1: and protecting them from Iran. He makes it's kind of
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Speaker 1: a it's it's certainly a fallacious argument, but he's saying, well,
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Speaker 1: look at America. Is America blessed and he starts bringing
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Speaker 1: up all the negatives of America. Yeah, and then he's saying, well,
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Speaker 1: if that's what blessing looks like, well then I guess
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Speaker 1: Genesis twelve three is wrong. But that is taking one
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Speaker 1: passage of scripture and making your entire spiritual life or
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Speaker 1: your relationship with God, whatever that might be. It's like, Okay,
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Speaker 1: let's say I am the biggest blesser of Israel, Gary
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Speaker 1: and so based on and I live Genesis twelve three.
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna bless Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all those passages.
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Speaker 1: But I'm going to go be a drunkard and a
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Speaker 1: fornicator and a drug user. But I say, hey, God,
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Speaker 1: you have to bless me because I'm blessing Israel. I mean,
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Speaker 1: this argument is absolutely ridiculous that as if all of
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Speaker 1: God's blessings are tied up into one passage of scripture,
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Speaker 1: which is false.
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Speaker 2: It's not an incident or a statement, it's more of
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Speaker 2: a biblical concept. It stretches through the entire Bible.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a general statement that those who have an
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Speaker 1: attitude of blessing towards Israel, that God will bless him,
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Speaker 1: but not at the expense if they are living a
20:39
Speaker 1: life of complete ungodliness. God's not bound to this, so
20:43
Speaker 1: his whole art again, this argument that he brings up
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Speaker 1: there and trying to bring in an America, the state
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Speaker 1: of America, and to prove that this theology is wrong,
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Speaker 1: is completely fallacious. So but let me go back to
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Speaker 1: something here, okay, because this is super important so in
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Speaker 1: the church right now, and it's got so I've been
21:03
Speaker 1: talking about this for at least a year, but I
21:06
Speaker 1: see it's even worse so, and this is why we're
21:08
Speaker 1: having this conversation because my goal is to help the
21:11
Speaker 1: church have a sense of unity around Scripture as much
21:16
Speaker 1: as possible in everything. Of course, again, you and I
21:20
Speaker 1: were both pastors for a long time. We love the church,
21:22
Speaker 1: We love the church. But what I see in the
21:24
Speaker 1: church right now is are two extremes. So let me
21:28
Speaker 1: one extreme is a very anti Israel extreme, usually not always,
21:33
Speaker 1: usually involves some sort of replacement theology or fulfillment theology.
21:38
Speaker 1: It usually involves the boycott, divestment, and sanctioned movement. You
21:41
Speaker 1: see a lot of that with the Presbyterian Church and
21:43
Speaker 1: Methodist Church, where even all the money they have, they're
21:45
Speaker 1: removing it from anything related to modern Israel. This group
21:49
Speaker 1: also makes claims that the people living in the Land
21:52
Speaker 1: of Israel are not real Jews or Kazarians or whatever.
21:56
Speaker 1: It often can involve a lot of anti Semitism, not always,
21:59
Speaker 1: but it can. They definitely don't believe there's any future
22:02
Speaker 1: for modern Israel. And then the last thing is that
22:06
Speaker 1: when they look at modern Israel today becoming a nation
22:09
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty eight, they deny any miraculous nature. It's
22:14
Speaker 1: not a hand of God. God didn't do it. They
22:16
Speaker 1: deny that it is fulfilling any sort of biblical prophecy. Okay,
22:20
Speaker 1: so that's the that's the anti Israel group. Well, what
22:24
Speaker 1: about the other group, So that's an extreme Well, I
22:26
Speaker 1: do believe there's an extreme pro Israel group, and so
22:29
Speaker 1: let's talk about them. They certainly believe that God's the
22:33
Speaker 1: Israel's God's chosen people. I do believe that. Okay, So
22:36
Speaker 1: that's not extreme. Okay, this group that is very pro
22:39
Speaker 1: Israel Genesis twelve three. They're reluctant to criticize Israel at all.
22:45
Speaker 1: They will minimize the immorality that happens in Israel. I mean,
22:49
Speaker 1: Tel Aviv is considered the gay capital of the Middle.
22:51
Speaker 2: East, and they are not hesitant to show up.
22:54
Speaker 1: No, they have gay pride parades, et cetera. Yeah so,
22:58
Speaker 1: and Christians. Again, these Christian Zionists are reluctant to criticize
23:03
Speaker 1: his rule in those things. Okay. They also will minimize
23:07
Speaker 1: or downplay the fact that Israel in general, not in
23:13
Speaker 1: general as a nation, they reject Jesus. Okay, so there
23:16
Speaker 1: are some Messianic believers in Israel today, some Jewish believers
23:19
Speaker 1: in Jesus, and they're saved, and that's great. But for
23:21
Speaker 1: the most part, Christian Zionists minimizes the fact that many
23:26
Speaker 1: of the religious Jews or others persecute Christians, genuine real Christians,
23:30
Speaker 1: even evangelical Christians or whatever. We saw recently that there
23:34
Speaker 1: was a couple, there was some settlers that killed some Christians. Okay,
23:38
Speaker 1: so they'll minimize that. They've created a dual New Covenant
23:42
Speaker 1: theology where Jews are saved apart from Jesus. And then
23:46
Speaker 1: because of all that, you look at, for example, the
23:49
Speaker 1: Christian jew Foundation or International Fellowship for Christian Jews, I
23:53
Speaker 1: mainly mean them, they're reluctant to do evangelism because they're
23:57
Speaker 1: just we're here to support Israel. But don't you think
24:00
Speaker 1: you should evangelism. No, we don't want to interrupt their relationships.
24:02
Speaker 1: So those are the two extremes. Okay, so you can
24:05
Speaker 1: be too pro Israel. Okay, but now let me give
24:08
Speaker 1: you what I see as the biblical should be, the
24:11
Speaker 1: biblical approach, and this is I think the most biblical
24:14
Speaker 1: version of what Christian Zionism should be. That Israel today,
24:19
Speaker 1: modern Israel. They're the real Jews. Okay. Genetics proves this
24:23
Speaker 1: the case, and Tommy Iyist does a great job in
24:24
Speaker 1: the book showing that the Jewish people are God's chosen
24:27
Speaker 1: people forever. That's never changed. Romans eleven to twenty nine.
24:31
Speaker 1: The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. That
24:33
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're saved right now. Okay. It's based This
24:37
Speaker 1: biblical approach is based on God's promises to the patriarchs. Okay.
24:43
Speaker 1: It recognizes that they were gathered back in the land
24:46
Speaker 1: in unbelief. He's Eco thirty six says quite clearly they
24:48
Speaker 1: were gathered in unbelief. They didn't receive the spirit. It
24:52
Speaker 1: also Deuteronomy nine tells us they don't deserve to be
24:55
Speaker 1: in the land. They belong in the land because it's theirs.
24:58
Speaker 1: But they don't deserve to be in the land Deuteronomy nine.
25:00
Speaker 1: They never deserved to be in the land in the
25:02
Speaker 1: first time. Gary God Moses tells them, don't say to yourself,
25:05
Speaker 1: it's because of your righteousness that I brought you in.
25:07
Speaker 1: It's because of the promises. So when we look at
25:10
Speaker 1: Israel today, there's this confusion and it's like, well, how
25:14
Speaker 1: are these gods shows me? But well, first of all,
25:16
Speaker 1: we're not saying they're saved. Read how are they God's
25:19
Speaker 1: chosen people in the Book of Judges. People read your Bibles,
25:22
Speaker 1: and so it also recognizes the many imperfections of the
25:26
Speaker 1: modern state of Israel. It acknowledges the rejections of Jesus. Currently,
25:31
Speaker 1: Israel is currently in a state of rebellion against Jesus,
25:34
Speaker 1: and they're lost. Paul said in Romans ten to one,
25:39
Speaker 1: my desires that they may be saved. So if we
25:43
Speaker 1: can acknowledge the challenges that we find in the modern
25:47
Speaker 1: state of Israel, I think that we will help the
25:50
Speaker 1: conversation to be like, let me tell you what being
25:53
Speaker 1: pro Israel means. It doesn't mean accepting everything that they do.
25:57
Speaker 1: It means God has a plan for them and a
25:59
Speaker 1: future for them. They belong to the land. Now does
26:02
Speaker 1: it allow them to go and murder women and children
26:04
Speaker 1: everything else to keep the land? I don't think God
26:06
Speaker 1: would be pleased by that.
26:08
Speaker 2: No, let me run this past you, because this impresses me.
26:12
Speaker 2: Last book in the Old Testament Malachi, last chapter in Malachi,
26:17
Speaker 2: chapter four, and we have these verses. Remember the law
26:23
Speaker 2: of Moses, my servant, which I commanded under him in
26:26
Speaker 2: horror for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold,
26:30
Speaker 2: I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming
26:33
Speaker 2: of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And
26:36
Speaker 2: he shall turn the heart of the fathers of the children,
26:39
Speaker 2: the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I
26:41
Speaker 2: come and smite the earth with a curse. That's the
26:44
Speaker 2: closing statement in the Old Testament. What is it telling
26:51
Speaker 2: us God is looking out for Israel, He has a
26:54
Speaker 2: plan for Israel, he wants He's even going to send
26:57
Speaker 2: them Elijah again. And where where will they be and
27:01
Speaker 2: what will they be doing when Elijah comes? And you
27:05
Speaker 2: think these thoughts, And we are students of Bible prophecy,
27:10
Speaker 2: and we study Elijah a Lot and Elijah. You know,
27:15
Speaker 2: it is not one who came years and years or
27:18
Speaker 2: decades or millennia ago and then he disappeared. He's one
27:22
Speaker 2: who came and went and his coming back again. And
27:26
Speaker 2: this tells us and to me, it says something about Israel.
27:31
Speaker 2: God's going to send them Elijah the prophet. When's that
27:35
Speaker 2: going to happen? Are we there? Are we in that
27:41
Speaker 2: area of time that we could say Elijah could come
27:45
Speaker 2: fairly soon after the after the church? Maybe?
27:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Gary, Because God, God,
27:53
Speaker 1: what is God sending Elijah too? He's sending them as
27:56
Speaker 1: a missionary, yes, to his people like he in the
28:00
Speaker 1: Old Testament. He sent prophets to turn them back to God.
28:05
Speaker 1: And again, this is why I'm so shocked that people
28:09
Speaker 1: don't often understand the theology of the Old Testament, that
28:13
Speaker 1: they never lost their chosenness even when they were completely wicked.
28:17
Speaker 1: And God kicked him, kicked the northern king of Midland,
28:20
Speaker 1: he kicked the Southern Kingdom to Babylon. You think, people,
28:22
Speaker 1: we're what we're seeing right now, or let's go to
28:25
Speaker 1: the New Testament. And this is this is let me
28:29
Speaker 1: bring this up, Gary, because when you come to the
28:31
Speaker 1: New Testament. So we let's let's just say, for the
28:36
Speaker 1: sake of making it easy, Jesus died and was resurrected
28:39
Speaker 1: in thirty three eighty, okay, and that makes it real easy, okay,
28:44
Speaker 1: thirty two, thirty three eighty whatever. Just so Jesus, Jesus leaves,
28:49
Speaker 1: he came to his people, he came to his own,
28:51
Speaker 1: and they rejected him, right right. And of course in
28:55
Speaker 1: Romans eleven says that Israel is blinded in part, not
28:59
Speaker 1: in full, because Paul was a Jew and he received
29:03
Speaker 1: the Gospel. James, the early disciples were all believers. So
29:08
Speaker 1: but Israel is blinded in part, okay, but there are some.
29:11
Speaker 1: So when Jesus left, you have the apostles and they're
29:17
Speaker 1: going and many people got saved, as we know in
29:19
Speaker 1: the Book of Acts, thousands and thousands of Jerusalem. So
29:21
Speaker 1: there were believers, and the first believers were Jewish, all right,
29:24
Speaker 1: But national Israel, judgment was coming. Jesus cast a judgment
29:28
Speaker 1: on him. Luke nineteen. He says, there's coming to day
29:31
Speaker 1: Luke twenty one as well, when you're gonna get judged,
29:34
Speaker 1: the army is going to surround you because you did
29:36
Speaker 1: not recognize the time of your visitation. He goes, it's over,
29:39
Speaker 1: it's done, That judgment is set. Okay. All these stones
29:42
Speaker 1: are going to be turned up right, all of that discourse,
29:45
Speaker 1: all the stones of that the temple is going to
29:47
Speaker 1: be destroyed. Okay. So fast forward to fifty two a d.
29:50
Speaker 1: This is in fifty two AD. Paul is writing the
29:53
Speaker 1: Book of Romans. He's writing into the gentile of Romans,
29:56
Speaker 1: and there's I'm sure that there's certainly there's Jews living
29:58
Speaker 1: there as well. And he says, so what do you
30:01
Speaker 1: have here? Let's put the context. Israel in fifty two
30:05
Speaker 1: eighty national Israel is in a state of rebellion against
30:08
Speaker 1: Jesus and ultimately against the Father. If you don't accept
30:12
Speaker 1: the Son, then you don't have the Father. Okay. If
30:14
Speaker 1: you reject the Son, then you're the spirit of the Antichrist. Okay.
30:17
Speaker 1: So that's pretty serious. First John two. So Israel, the
30:21
Speaker 1: nation of Israel, is in a state of Antichrist. Okay.
30:24
Speaker 1: But Paul writes to them, and he says, he writes
30:26
Speaker 1: to the Romans and he says this, I am speaking
30:29
Speaker 1: the truth in Christ, in the Messiah. I am not lying.
30:32
Speaker 1: My conscious conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit
30:35
Speaker 1: that I have a great sorrow and unceasing anguish in
30:39
Speaker 1: my heart, for I could wish that I myself were
30:42
Speaker 1: a cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the
30:45
Speaker 1: sake of my brothers, not spiritual brothers. Because he says,
30:48
Speaker 1: my kinsmen according in the flesh. He's talking about his kins,
30:51
Speaker 1: the ethnic Israel, the Jewish, These Jewish, he said, they
30:56
Speaker 1: ethnic Jewish Israel of the flesh, not even the saved ones.
31:02
Speaker 2: The genetic twelve, the genetic.
31:04
Speaker 1: Twelve tribes, and these are unsaved, because he says, I
31:06
Speaker 1: have an anguish in my heart that because they're unsaved.
31:11
Speaker 1: He says that Romans ten one. So he's talking about
31:13
Speaker 1: national Israelil, not the individuals. Some individuals are saved. He says,
31:17
Speaker 1: they are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory,
31:24
Speaker 1: the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and
31:27
Speaker 1: the promises. To them belong the patriarchs. And from the
31:30
Speaker 1: race according to the flesh, is the Messiah, who is
31:34
Speaker 1: God overall, blessed forever. Amen. But what he says is
31:39
Speaker 1: what he doesn't say, is, well, you know what it's
31:42
Speaker 1: over to them belong to the promises. No longer to
31:46
Speaker 1: them belong to covenants. Well, that's gone, the giving, the law,
31:49
Speaker 1: the worship over. He does not use the word past
31:52
Speaker 1: tense here. What he's saying is in fifty two a
31:56
Speaker 1: d national Israel is in a state of rebellion. Judgment
31:59
Speaker 1: has been said on them. They're ungodly. They still hold
32:03
Speaker 1: on to the adoption, the glory of the promises. They
32:05
Speaker 1: were not removed, which is why in Roman's eleven twenty
32:10
Speaker 1: nine he will say, the gifts and the calling of
32:12
Speaker 1: God are irrevocable. Now here's here I'll hear, and I'll
32:15
Speaker 1: get your thoughts on this. We're living right now, Gary,
32:19
Speaker 1: in the same situation. Israel is in the land. They're
32:22
Speaker 1: in a state of rebellion against the Lord Jesus and
32:25
Speaker 1: against God. But to them still belong all of these promises.
32:30
Speaker 1: We've gone from fifty to eighty to twenty twenty five AD,
32:34
Speaker 1: and the circumstances are identical. They have not lost.
32:38
Speaker 2: Yes, And here's the thing. Human beings like to believe
32:43
Speaker 2: that what you do with your own hands is what
32:46
Speaker 2: saves you. If I work really hard, I'll get to
32:49
Speaker 2: be you. Know a millionaire. Whatever your destiny is something
32:54
Speaker 2: you hack out of out of the rocks with your
32:58
Speaker 2: under your own steam. But the lesson in the Bible
33:02
Speaker 2: is no, no, no salvation. Your ultimate achievement is by grace.
33:09
Speaker 2: It's not anything you have done. You have accepted God's terms.
33:14
Speaker 2: Same thing for the twelve tribes, as for any Christian.
33:18
Speaker 2: When I received Christ as my savior, something happened and
33:24
Speaker 2: I went into a new category of existence. And that
33:28
Speaker 2: same promise is given to the twelve tribes. So then
33:32
Speaker 2: my point in this is that when you think of Israel,
33:37
Speaker 2: you think of people who to whom God has extended
33:41
Speaker 2: a promise, but they haven't quite accepted it yet. And
33:45
Speaker 2: so that we have a bias when we think of
33:47
Speaker 2: Israel because God extended that promise to the twelve tribes.
33:52
Speaker 1: And that's so perfectly said, because as I've talked with
33:56
Speaker 1: people and I say, look, mona, do you support it?
34:00
Speaker 1: Is one and say, well, again, let's define our terms
34:02
Speaker 1: here for a minute. Because in He's Egal thirty six,
34:07
Speaker 1: God says that the land would the land would be desolate,
34:11
Speaker 1: the mountains of Israel will be desolate for a long time.
34:14
Speaker 1: But in es Egal thirty six, he says, I'm going
34:16
Speaker 1: to bring my people back to the mountains of Israel
34:19
Speaker 1: that had been desolate. Okay, well, we know Mark Twain
34:22
Speaker 1: in a sense abroad he talks about man who would
34:24
Speaker 1: want to live here this is But God says, I'm
34:27
Speaker 1: going to bring my people back from all the nations
34:30
Speaker 1: where I've scattered him. We see that in the first century,
34:33
Speaker 1: back to the land in the latter days. So in
34:36
Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight, when God brings starts bringing these these
34:39
Speaker 1: Jewish people back, most of them are unbelievers. God didn't
34:42
Speaker 1: say he was bringing save people back. He's bringing the
34:45
Speaker 1: Jewish people back. When people ask the question, do you
34:48
Speaker 1: think those are the real Jews? I go, that's kind
34:50
Speaker 1: of a dumb question. God knows who the Jews are.
34:53
Speaker 1: If God's bringing this group back to the land that
34:56
Speaker 1: was desolate, I think God knows who the people are, and.
34:59
Speaker 2: The Nazis knew who's a Jous exactly.
35:01
Speaker 1: But to me, this is a theological God knows who
35:04
Speaker 1: he brought back. Yeah, and he did, right, And so
35:06
Speaker 1: when I look at this. But here's the question is
35:08
Speaker 1: somebody says, do you support Israel and why do you
35:11
Speaker 1: support Israel. I go, well, you know what, I don't
35:13
Speaker 1: support Israel directly because they're righteous, because they're wonderful, because
35:20
Speaker 1: of all that, not at all. What I'm what I'm
35:23
Speaker 1: supporting is the promises of God that he made to Abraham,
35:28
Speaker 1: Isaac and Jacob, to the patriarchs, and that promises this
35:32
Speaker 1: land is yours forever. I'm giving it to you. And
35:35
Speaker 1: that extends, as we know, down to the Twelve Tribes
35:38
Speaker 1: and to the modern Jews there. So that's why I
35:40
Speaker 1: asked the question, do they belong in the land? The
35:42
Speaker 1: answer is yes, yes. Do they deserve to be in
35:44
Speaker 1: the land? The answer is no, they don't. They never
35:48
Speaker 1: deserve to be there.
35:49
Speaker 2: We all we talk about Christianity, Christianity salvation by grace
35:54
Speaker 2: through faith, same concept applies to Israel. They they are
36:00
Speaker 2: as a as twelve tribes, as a nation going to
36:03
Speaker 2: be saved. Is it because of their works? No, it's
36:07
Speaker 2: because of the grace of God and it's yet to happen.
36:10
Speaker 1: It is yet to happen. See So when I see
36:12
Speaker 1: the Christian who is raised in a church that supports Israel,
36:17
Speaker 1: I think, you know again, this we're getting get into
36:19
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty here. But I think for them, they're
36:20
Speaker 1: going wait a minute. They see the promises of God,
36:25
Speaker 1: and as being no word of God can fail, God
36:30
Speaker 1: said he's going to bring them back. But he's also,
36:32
Speaker 1: as you just said, Gary, he's going to bring him
36:33
Speaker 1: into the tribulation. Yes, He's going to bring them Jeremiah
36:36
Speaker 1: thirty verse seven says this is the time of Jacob's trouble,
36:40
Speaker 1: but he will be saved out of it, and God
36:42
Speaker 1: will remove ungodliness from Jacob. So when God looks down,
36:45
Speaker 1: what's the point of the tribulation to remove ungodliness from Jacob?
36:49
Speaker 1: Which when we look at Israel today, there's a lot
36:51
Speaker 1: of ungodden which we just described right in every nation,
36:54
Speaker 1: but it is there. So I think that the Christian says, yeah,
36:59
Speaker 1: but God has the future. If there's no future for Israel,
37:01
Speaker 1: then God's words fail. And the reason why we support
37:04
Speaker 1: Israel is because we love the word of God. We
37:06
Speaker 1: love the promises of God that we're given to Abraham,
37:09
Speaker 1: Isaac and Jacob, and we see that the future of
37:11
Speaker 1: Israel is going to be all this is going to
37:13
Speaker 1: be saved again Romans eleven, twenty five and twenty six.
37:17
Speaker 1: That is what people love, and but can they come
37:21
Speaker 1: Can the Christian who loves the Word of God and
37:23
Speaker 1: by extension the promises of God to this nation Israel,
37:26
Speaker 1: can they become unbalanced and be too extreme in their
37:30
Speaker 1: devotion and support of Israel. Yes, and we need to
37:34
Speaker 1: bring it back to the biblical perspective so that when
37:38
Speaker 1: someone again, I'll just share this Gary. I got a
37:41
Speaker 1: letter this one time from a woman named Linda, and
37:44
Speaker 1: Linda said, hey, Mondo, I'm trying to tell my family
37:47
Speaker 1: and my friends and my Christian friends that, you know,
37:50
Speaker 1: we should support Israel. But they turn around a throw
37:52
Speaker 1: in my face. Well look, how, look how look at
37:54
Speaker 1: the persecution against Christians, look at the gay pride, and
37:58
Speaker 1: they start whipping out all the negatives of Israel, of
38:00
Speaker 1: modern Israel. And she said, what do I say to them?
38:04
Speaker 1: I go, well, tell them it's true, because but as
38:08
Speaker 1: a Christian, if we ignore those things, we're not being
38:11
Speaker 1: truth tellers. Let me give you an example again, another
38:15
Speaker 1: thing I heard this last week. Oh okay, so somebody's
38:19
Speaker 1: hat a Bible study, and the Bible study is kind
38:21
Speaker 1: of a discussion Bible study. And they walk in and
38:24
Speaker 1: they say, hey, today I want to discuss what Israel
38:30
Speaker 1: is doing in killing you know, women and children in Gaza. Okay, Well,
38:37
Speaker 1: one woman as soon as she heard that, she stood up,
38:40
Speaker 1: I support Israel. I'm not going to listen to any
38:42
Speaker 1: of this, and she walked out. Well that's kind of
38:45
Speaker 1: a little irrational. My response would have been, well, let's
38:50
Speaker 1: talk about where you're getting your numbers. You know, again,
38:52
Speaker 1: did did who did?
38:54
Speaker 2: Who?
38:54
Speaker 1: Did Israel kill? Who's reporting that? Is that a moss
38:56
Speaker 1: reporting that? Well, that that's suspect. Okay, is it unruded?
38:59
Speaker 1: Well that's uspect. Has Israel done things perfectly in any more? No?
39:03
Speaker 1: So to me, we need to be able to have
39:05
Speaker 1: the conversation that Israel can fail and they could do
39:07
Speaker 1: wrong things, and they can do these things. But let's
39:10
Speaker 1: get all of our facts straight. Because what I do
39:12
Speaker 1: know what I see happening is and which country that
39:17
Speaker 1: wages any operation military operation says drops flyers from the
39:22
Speaker 1: from the air, evacuate, evacuate because we're coming in after
39:26
Speaker 1: the terrorists and we don't want to minimize civilians to
39:29
Speaker 1: move them. Which country does that? Is Russia doing that
39:31
Speaker 1: in the Ukraine?
39:32
Speaker 2: Yeah? And yourn is not doing it?
39:34
Speaker 1: No, they were doing it in Israel. So Israel does
39:37
Speaker 1: some good things, but do they do it perfectly? No,
39:39
Speaker 1: not at all. But the fact of the matter is,
39:41
Speaker 1: at least for this woman, she refused even to have
39:45
Speaker 1: a conversation. Does Jesus care and love the Palestinians? Yes,
39:49
Speaker 1: of course. Okay. Now are many of the terrorists wicked
39:53
Speaker 1: and evil? Yes, of course. So the fact that she
39:56
Speaker 1: was unwilling to have the conversation shows to me that
40:00
Speaker 1: she's I would put her in the extreme Christian Zionist
40:02
Speaker 1: camp where she can't even talk. So we need to
40:05
Speaker 1: be a little bit more balanced.
40:06
Speaker 2: And there's one element. As you were speaking, I was thinking,
40:09
Speaker 2: there's no other group of people on earth intrinsically loaded
40:15
Speaker 2: down with a kind of an unspoken negativism. I used
40:20
Speaker 2: to know a man in southern California who's a good
40:23
Speaker 2: friend of mine, owned a chain of drug stores, and
40:29
Speaker 2: he used to tell me that he was very, very
40:33
Speaker 2: careful about allowing people to know whether he was a Jew.
40:37
Speaker 2: And then he went into a long list of things
40:39
Speaker 2: that would happen if people found out you were a Jew.
40:41
Speaker 2: And you've been through all of that, and you know
40:43
Speaker 2: about that. And I thought to myself, here's a man
40:51
Speaker 2: who is living with a burden, and I can tell
40:55
Speaker 2: by the way he talks to me that he doesn't
40:57
Speaker 2: really understand why he is. He kept saying, why do
41:03
Speaker 2: why are we hated? This way? The Bible has the
41:07
Speaker 2: entire explanation, and it has to do with again back
41:11
Speaker 2: to one of my favorite phrases of salvation by grace
41:14
Speaker 2: through faith, and the twelve tribes are going to be saved,
41:19
Speaker 2: not all of them, but they are going to be.
41:22
Speaker 2: The Bible talks about it very prolifically, and in some
41:27
Speaker 2: cases they're going to be saved in spite of themselves
41:31
Speaker 2: because of the grace of God. And that element of
41:37
Speaker 2: jew hatred is present, just like my friend Howard used
41:43
Speaker 2: to say all the time. It's present. You can feel
41:46
Speaker 2: it wherever you go if you're a Jew. And I
41:50
Speaker 2: think that this is perfectly explained in the Bible when
41:54
Speaker 2: it comes to what Israel has done, what Israel has
41:59
Speaker 2: been offered, what Israel has refused historically, what's going to
42:04
Speaker 2: happen to Israel in the future, namely, the prophets are
42:08
Speaker 2: going to return, and Elijah's coming back, and many wonderful
42:14
Speaker 2: things are going to happen to the Jews also, many
42:18
Speaker 2: horrific things, and all we can do is what's your advice?
42:24
Speaker 1: You know, I think we need to be as biblical
42:26
Speaker 1: as possible, and we trust and believe all the scripture. Again,
42:30
Speaker 1: there is a future for Israel, but their future is
42:34
Speaker 1: going to be very bleak in the short term. Now
42:37
Speaker 1: long term, God's going to save him, sure, but what
42:40
Speaker 1: we're seeing Gary is like I think about the Book
42:46
Speaker 1: of Habakuk where Habakuk was frustrated with the people of
42:49
Speaker 1: Israel and of Judah because they were wicked. And so
42:54
Speaker 1: he's saying God, what's in God's like, watch, I'm gonna
42:56
Speaker 1: do something that's going to make your your hair tingle.
42:59
Speaker 1: And he goes, I'm going to bring the Babylonians to
43:01
Speaker 1: come down and judge my people. And back is like, what,
43:04
Speaker 1: They're even worse. They're even worse. And but God says, well,
43:07
Speaker 1: don't worry, I'm going to use the Babylonians to judge
43:10
Speaker 1: my people. But then I'm gonna turn around and judge
43:12
Speaker 1: them for their wickedness. So this is where the anti
43:16
Speaker 1: Semitism that people have today. Look, there's no there's no
43:21
Speaker 1: justification for that. If God's going to judge his people.
43:24
Speaker 1: That's his business. But we shouldn't help it because then
43:27
Speaker 1: God's going to turn around and judge those people. But
43:29
Speaker 1: we know that again during this seven year, this time
43:32
Speaker 1: of Jacob's trouble, the seven year seventy, the week of Daniel,
43:35
Speaker 1: that this is no different than old Testament times when
43:38
Speaker 1: God brings trouble, He's going to bring trouble upon his
43:42
Speaker 1: people to save them, so to humble them, to grind
43:46
Speaker 1: them down. And that's what's coming. But for for the
43:50
Speaker 1: for Christians today to say that there is no future
43:53
Speaker 1: for Israel, let me just read one quote here because
43:56
Speaker 1: this is the straw man argument that you have. So
43:58
Speaker 1: in this article that we had, he says, there is
44:02
Speaker 1: a reason I describe Christian Zionism as a theologically bankrupt
44:06
Speaker 1: subculture masquerading as prophecy. It is an ideology that sanctifies
44:12
Speaker 1: any war crime, any act of brutality by Israeli forces, because,
44:17
Speaker 1: according to its adherents, personal blessing from God is contingent
44:22
Speaker 1: on political allegiance to the modern nation state. When not
44:26
Speaker 1: actively mangling scripture, history, and basic morality, this movement manufacturer
44:31
Speaker 1: signs and wonders. So this is a complete straw man. Now,
44:35
Speaker 1: you might have some Christian Zionists again, like we just
44:40
Speaker 1: talked about the extreme form that is not being willing
44:44
Speaker 1: to criticize Israel when it's worthy of it. But that's
44:48
Speaker 1: not the definition of Christian Zionism as relates to the Bible.
44:53
Speaker 1: So if I like this guy that asked, when I
44:57
Speaker 1: asked him, give me your definition, well, Isral can do
45:00
Speaker 1: whatever it wants and I have to support it. Well,
45:02
Speaker 1: I'm not that. That's not a Christian Zionist in the
45:05
Speaker 1: in the in the in the biblical sense. So let's summarize.
45:09
Speaker 1: A Christian Zionist in the biblical sense is somebody who
45:11
Speaker 1: believes in the promises of God Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
45:16
Speaker 1: and that those promises will be fulfilled in the national
45:19
Speaker 1: state of Israel in the future. And it's already starting
45:22
Speaker 1: to be fulfilled now. God brought them back into the
45:24
Speaker 1: land and there's a future for them. It does not
45:26
Speaker 1: require a Christian to justify or sanctify when Israel does
45:34
Speaker 1: sinful things.
45:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, Israel does sinful things. But Israel there's another element
45:42
Speaker 2: that we haven't even touched on yet, and that is
45:44
Speaker 2: they are a talented people. God gave them many talents.
45:48
Speaker 2: And if you gope through a history of the Jews,
45:52
Speaker 2: you're going to find amazing developments, inventions, sociological innovations. You're
45:59
Speaker 2: going to find wonderful things coming out of the Twelve Tribes.
46:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is where again God got if
46:07
Speaker 1: you just when you read the Old Testament and even
46:10
Speaker 1: in the New Testament, God has a future where there's
46:14
Speaker 1: coming a day when they will acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ.
46:17
Speaker 1: They will be saved. They will be the head and
46:18
Speaker 1: not the tail. All the promises that God made for
46:20
Speaker 1: them to be in the land, they've never fulfilled. All
46:24
Speaker 1: of the land promises. They haven't again possessed Lebanon and
46:30
Speaker 1: all those other areas. There's been points where they've been close.
46:33
Speaker 1: But you know, and I can just kind of wrap
46:36
Speaker 1: it up in one sense here, Gary that if we
46:38
Speaker 1: take away all the religion, let's take away the Bible.
46:41
Speaker 1: When I look at Israel today and I look at well,
46:44
Speaker 1: why would I support Israel? Not that you would agree
46:47
Speaker 1: with him. Well, they're an ally of the United States.
46:50
Speaker 1: They're a democracy of the United States surrounded by again,
46:56
Speaker 1: as we know, a lot of non democratic Islamic countries.
47:00
Speaker 1: And you know, for the most part, if people who
47:03
Speaker 1: are consider themselves liberal or a libertarian, or just in
47:07
Speaker 1: the sense of liberal democracies, you'd like, well, wow, they
47:13
Speaker 1: Again I'm not a pro LGBTQ, but if you were
47:16
Speaker 1: somebody who was, you'd be like, Israel's great, look at
47:19
Speaker 1: all the freedoms and look at all the freedoms that
47:21
Speaker 1: because again, if you're part of that movement and you
47:23
Speaker 1: go to if you go to Gaza, you're going to
47:25
Speaker 1: be killed, but you'll live wonderful in Tel Aviv. So
47:29
Speaker 1: for those that look at Israel, they're just so inconsistent.
47:32
Speaker 1: When you see some of the LGBTQ movement for Hamas
47:35
Speaker 1: or for the Palestinians, you're like, are you guys like insane?
47:40
Speaker 1: Do you not have any rational thinking in your mind?
47:43
Speaker 1: You would go there and they would kill you. So
47:45
Speaker 1: never less. Anyways, Gary, I mean, we can wrap it
47:47
Speaker 1: up here, but.
47:48
Speaker 2: One final comment very quickly. They are called commonly God's
47:53
Speaker 2: chosen people. You know what, I don't think they gave
47:57
Speaker 2: themselves that night, and they would like to be rid
48:01
Speaker 2: of that name, many of them would, But in fact
48:06
Speaker 2: they are God's chosen people. And Bible prophecy projects that
48:11
Speaker 2: very idea.
48:12
Speaker 1: Yes, and let's remember chosen does not automatically mean saved.
48:16
Speaker 1: Read the Book of Judges. They were chosen, but they
48:18
Speaker 1: certainly were where many They did a lot of evil things.
48:22
Speaker 1: And salvation is individual. You don't save. God has never
48:28
Speaker 1: saved anybody nationally, just like, Oh, I'm gonna put salvation
48:30
Speaker 1: on all that, right, But chosen means separate, and God
48:34
Speaker 1: has separated Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and them for his purposes.
48:37
Speaker 1: They will be saved as we know. Roman's eleven twenty six.
48:40
Speaker 1: So Gary, always good chatting, Yes, and thanks everybody for
48:43
Speaker 1: listening today. And I hope this is helpful to help
48:46
Speaker 1: again explain and nuanced the conversations. So God blessed, we'll
48:49
Speaker 1: see you next time.