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Beard to Beard: Breaking the Taboo of Male Intimacy (S05 Ep69) · ZoukNerds • Learn | Build | Belong

0:00
No, you don't feel this. You don't say that.
0:03
You don't express this, because if you do that, you're weak.
0:05
If you do that, you're not a man.
0:08
Or if you do that, then you're just being a loser.
0:11
There is something about being a man and allow themselves to be
0:15
held by another man and surrender on the arms of another
0:19
man and let them guide them on the dance floor.
0:21
I think that can be a deeply transformation experience for
0:24
several people. So.
0:25
For me, the man, woman, anything between above and below has
0:29
never for being an issue because my entire life I've never felt
0:33
that there was a difference. The tenderness of your
0:35
connection, the thoughtfulness and attention of your touch are
0:39
not associated to the gender of the person, whether or not
0:42
you're attracted to that person. The age of the person.
0:45
When a leader, male or female, comes and dances with me and
0:49
they embrace me, they take care of me, they make me feel safe,
0:53
Oh boy, I want that. Yes, no matter how old you are,
0:56
there is a child inside of you, and that child wants to be
0:59
taken, think care of. The child wants to be seen and
1:03
to be held and to be touched. Brazilian Zook partner.
1:05
Dancing in this way provides us a container, a place where we
1:10
have the permission, we have the possibility of connecting at the
1:14
human level, despite of gender. You Can Dance with another man,
1:19
be overflowing with sexual energy with another guy, and
1:22
that has absolutely nothing to do with the first meaning that
1:25
normally people associate, which is the sexual experience having
1:27
sex. What does it mean to be a man in
1:34
the dance world today? Is it harder to lead or to allow
1:39
yourself to be held by another man?
1:42
And how can surrendering control on the dance floor completely
1:47
redefine your understanding of masculinity?
1:52
Well, let's find out. Hello.
1:55
Hello everyone and welcome back to Zook Nerds.
1:58
In this episode, I'm joined by Ghee Prada to explore the male
2:02
experience in the dance community.
2:05
We'll take a deep dive and talk about the vulnerability of
2:09
learning to follow the impact of strong female role models in a
2:14
male dominated society, and how switching roles can unlock a
2:19
level of sensitivity and body awareness you never thought
2:23
possible. We are breaking down the fears
2:27
behind physical touch between men and discussing how dance can
2:31
heal touch starvation and reshape our personal lives.
2:36
So let's go. Hello.
2:47
Hello everyone, my name is Alison Sanji and let's welcome
2:51
back our beautiful Co host GI Prada.
2:53
Hello. GI.
2:55
Hello, Allison. Hello, everybody.
2:57
Welcome back to Zook Nerds. In today's very special episode,
3:01
we are going to be talking about the experience of men in the
3:05
dance community, more specifically for men entering
3:10
the dance community and starting to dance at all.
3:14
And then we're going to be talking about the men who also
3:18
choose to learn to follow so millionaires about this
3:22
conversation and things that we think can help a lot of people
3:28
who are either in the Brazilian zoo community, but all other
3:31
dance styles as well. And for those of you who are
3:34
watching our video format of this podcast, you might see a
3:40
new person just walking around this setup.
3:44
And that is because this episode is actually part of a
3:48
documentary, which, Gee, we'll be talking a little bit more
3:51
about later in the episode. So let's start with a question
3:57
that I hope is not going to be too heavy, but Gee, this one is
4:04
for you. Yeah.
4:05
What does it mean to be a man for you when you're growing up?
4:09
What kind of role model and examples did you have in your
4:14
life? Yeah, that's a good one to
4:16
start, especially in today's episode because, guys, as you
4:19
can see, I'm not in my room, I'm in my kitchen to say this
4:23
setting because we are shooting a documentary talking about
4:26
masculinity, talking about what does it mean to be a guy in
4:30
today's society. And we are exploring social
4:33
dancing, more specifically learning how to dance Brazilian
4:35
Zook as a follower for a guy, for a man and for a straight man
4:40
to see how that impacts that idea of what to be a man is.
4:46
And from me growing up, the main thing I used to hear from my
4:50
father is there's a very common expression.
4:53
Probably Allison heard this thing too, which is honor your
4:55
pants. Yeah, all her cow secure
4:58
Sebastian is like all of the pants that you're wearing.
5:01
And that means that I grew up with the idea that being a man
5:05
is being someone who provides. Be someone who is true to the
5:11
word, be someone who is honorable, and basically be
5:16
someone who is going to hold and handle things when things seem
5:21
not to be going well or things seem to be going down.
5:25
You are the one who is going to hold the Fort.
5:28
So every time I would do something that I would lie to my
5:32
parents that I would do something different than what I
5:35
told them, my father would say this thing under your pants.
5:39
You are a man and you cannot do these things.
5:42
One thing that luckily it was not part of my upbringing was
5:48
related to the display of emotion, the display of
5:52
affection and emotion. I didn't hear these things that
5:56
men don't cry, that men don't hold, the men don't support
6:01
physically. With my parents, my
6:04
grandparents, mostly my parents and my grandparents, I
6:08
experienced a lot of physical affection and I was not told to
6:12
hold my cry. I was not told to not to do
6:15
certain things. I was mostly told to hold the
6:19
words, to uphold my words. The affection part was often
6:24
very, very present. And I think that was extremely
6:28
beneficial for me when learning how to dance because touching
6:33
another guy in dense rotations or in practice when we were
6:38
practicing a movement and I would do as a follower, I would
6:42
ask my teachers to lead me in the movements.
6:45
I wouldn't feel necessarily any, Oh my God, there's a guy
6:48
touching me. I'll, you know, share more about
6:52
when I did feel this thing of no, I don't want to be this
6:56
close to a guy later. But when we were in the context
6:59
of the dance, it was not complicated for me.
7:02
It was actually the flow was really nice on that end.
7:06
And thinking about this today, I realized that perhaps I didn't
7:09
have such a hard time because the physical affection with
7:13
another man. It was part of my life growing
7:16
up. And so it was not that strange.
7:19
It was actually pretty neutral, like normal.
7:23
I didn't think much of it, you know, It was just the thing that
7:25
we were doing. Yeah, that was how it was for
7:28
me, how it was for you, Allison. I'm digging here in my memory
7:33
bank and I think it was kind of a mixed bag.
7:37
If I'm talking about my house specifically within my very
7:41
close family, I do remember in the very early stages when we
7:46
were very little, my dad was very caring and very happy and
7:52
physical touch and emotions were there.
7:56
But then I think with three boys in the house in a very difficult
8:00
household, things got tough. And for I'd say for about 10
8:05
years that went away. You know, the supportive care,
8:10
touching, encouraging kind of father faded away, not because
8:15
it wasn't part of my dad, but just because he wasn't in a good
8:20
place in life. But I do have two other male in
8:24
my life, which was my uncle and my cousin that were very very
8:30
touching, hugging, supporting my uncle for my entire life up
8:37
until today. Every time he'll see me, he'll
8:39
hug me, he'll kiss me on my face.
8:42
It's just the thing he does. And I remember that when my dad
8:48
was more like that, I felt OK with it.
8:51
But then when my dad started being cold and just being like
8:55
this man, I felt uncomfortable when my uncle did that with me.
8:59
So kind of like that mirror between me and my dad affected
9:04
my entire life outside of the house.
9:07
My dad comes from a very poor background, and also he was part
9:12
of the military for his entire life.
9:14
So there's a lot of baggage there.
9:17
If any of your guys have any military in your family, you
9:21
know what I'm talking about. So I didn't really have all that
9:25
encouragement and support to do anything I wanted.
9:28
It was very much like, no, you don't feel this.
9:32
You don't say that, you don't express this because if you do
9:36
that, you're weak. If you do that, you're not a
9:39
man, or if you do that, then you're just being a loser.
9:43
So there was a lot of that and especially when I started
9:45
dancing, my dad used to be a little sarcastic about it.
9:51
He wasn't like don't do it or stop doing it.
9:54
But if there was any situation where something was not right,
9:59
he would use that opportunity to mention dance and make fun of it
10:04
or, you know, put some sarcasm towards it and in a way that it
10:09
was not positive at all. But you know, I just did what I
10:15
wanted, did what I knew was good for me, and thankfully I'm here.
10:20
Yeah, I know you were mentioning about my father is also from the
10:23
military and he's from the Air Force.
10:26
And it's funny because you also mentioned your uncle.
10:29
And when I think about the male role models that I had growing
10:34
up, I think about that, my father and my uncle.
10:38
I also think about my grandfather and how this should
10:42
generations impacted me in different ways.
10:46
My grandfather is a part of a generation that for 30 years
10:50
worked in the same place for the same person and with his only
10:56
salary, he was the only person making money in the family.
10:59
He was able to raise three boys, a house, a family, the whole
11:03
thing. And then my father, my uncle,
11:06
the next generation couldn't do this anymore.
11:09
So we have to have two people like my father and my mother and
11:12
my uncle and my aunt both working very intensely to keep
11:16
the household. Then my mother and my father
11:20
raised three boys again, and my uncle raised two children.
11:26
And I just looked up to them so much because of how much they
11:30
knew about things. It was like they knew about
11:33
things in general, questions about history.
11:36
They knew ancient Greece, ancient Rome, they knew about
11:39
something like that. They knew about the world.
11:42
And I looked up to their knowledge so much.
11:47
And my grandfather, I think I looked up to him for what he was
11:52
able to achieve, really being the person who was working for
11:56
the same guy for 30 years, you know, and was able to achieve so
12:02
much and raise the whole family. So all of these things made me
12:05
really appreciate them. Of course things change when the
12:10
political polarization start happening in the world and we
12:14
know like right Alison, there are parents tend that you shift
12:18
to a particular side of the political spectrum and then
12:22
we're like, brah, how come this person that raised me, he's
12:27
doing and talking and following these things, You know, so that
12:31
part was. Strictly here.
12:33
That part of size, I think father, uncle and grandfather
12:37
were big role models for me. I just realized that my father
12:42
and your father might know each other because my dad used to go
12:46
to Rio a lot and both of our fathers are from the Air Force.
12:50
So I'm actually going to ask my dad about it.
12:53
That's very interesting because since I was little, the only
12:57
role models that I can really remember were female role
13:01
models, not the men in my family.
13:04
I don't necessarily know why. I wouldn't say that all of the
13:09
male in my life were bad or in my family were bad, but I can
13:15
definitely say that the female in my life were something that
13:20
made me more attracted to like. This is what inspires me.
13:25
This is what I want. I want that behavior.
13:28
I want that value, that principle or that attitude of
13:32
like. There is no issue.
13:35
Like, nobody tells me what to do.
13:37
Like, the women in my family were very much like that.
13:40
We don't need nobody. You know, if we want, we'll get
13:45
it done because they came from a generation of, you know, like,
13:50
you have to ask your husband this.
13:52
You have to ask them for help or for permission or things like
13:56
that. I think all the women,
13:58
especially from my mom's side, were like, no, no, no, no.
14:01
This is a partnership. We do things together, and if I
14:05
want something, I want something.
14:08
So that was very important to me, especially for my mom.
14:11
My mom is very much like that, yeah.
14:13
I agree so much with that I experience exactly.
14:18
I don't know, I want to say the same thing because, you know,
14:22
different people, different stories were super similar.
14:25
The women in my family are really strong as well, My mother
14:30
really strong. So think about male role models.
14:35
In fact, when we talk about this, there is a little bit more
14:38
of an effort that my brain makes and if says what is the role
14:43
models on the other side? And immediately, wow, this is
14:46
easy for this is a reason. The other one I need to like to
14:50
think about a little bit more because I think both of our
14:53
mothers are really, really, really strong in so many ways,
14:58
so many senses. And it's super interesting there
15:00
because when we switch back to the dance world and we think
15:04
about the amount of organizers who are women versus the amount
15:07
of organizers who are men. Not organizers, only organizers
15:11
of events, local community leaders.
15:14
Yeah. Like, at the top of my head.
15:17
Oh, my God, I need to. I don't know.
15:20
Well, I know of what place that it's a guy.
15:22
Some places are a couple. I cannot think about a place
15:26
that is just a guy. Oh, there is one.
15:29
There is one place that is just a guy.
15:31
Most places are the women or a couple.
15:34
You know, we don't see a solo guy being the organizer as we
15:38
see a solo woman being in the organizer.
15:43
Yeah. I mean, I don't really make a
15:45
conscious effort, but I would say that 99% of the people that
15:51
I work with in terms of community or organizing events,
15:56
the Berzuki team, all of the teams that I've had, even in the
16:00
International Ozuki Day, when it come to think about it, it's
16:03
majority women LED. I don't know, For me, there's
16:07
something different about it that it really makes me feel
16:12
like, OK, we can talk the same way.
16:15
I don't feel like there is any difference in how we value
16:21
things or how we see things. So yeah, it's very interesting
16:25
because I do feel like it's not the norm for a lot of Brazilian
16:31
people, and it's especially not the norm across the globe as
16:36
we're talking here about men who learn to dance and men who learn
16:40
to dance and to also dance with other men as a follower or as a
16:45
leader. Like both of us.
16:48
I feel like we were comfortable with it day one.
16:51
But really, that's not the reality.
16:54
Not at all. No, not at all.
16:56
I think the experience of learning how to dance, for
17:02
example, as a man, as a straight man, learning how to dance, we
17:07
default to learn how to lead, you know?
17:10
So there is this association to the gender and the role that you
17:13
play in partner dancing. So you go and you learn how to
17:16
lead and the leader is in the position of holding someone and
17:21
guiding them around the dance floor.
17:24
When you switch back to following, you are the one being
17:28
held and the thing that we notice the most in the
17:35
experience of teaching guys how to be followers and teaching
17:38
guys who are primary leaders how to follow.
17:42
The thing they mention is when we asked them what is the
17:46
hardest thing to hold another guy or to be held by another
17:51
guy, they said almost unanimously to be held.
17:56
There is something about being a man and allow themselves to be
18:01
held by another man and surrender on the arms of another
18:06
man and let them guide them on the dance floor.
18:10
I think that can be a deeply transformation experience for
18:13
several people because it starts to make a dissociation in what
18:18
comes to physical touch, physical connection, physical
18:21
affection. You know, the tenderness of your
18:24
connection, the thoughtfulness and attention of your touch are
18:29
not associated to the gender of the person, whether or not you
18:33
are attracted to that person, the age of the person.
18:36
So the experience for me that I'm realizing of learning how to
18:40
hold and be held by another man as a leader or as a follower has
18:47
been experience of remodeling or shifting the understanding of
18:52
what sexuality is, of what care is, of what attraction is, of
18:58
what intimacy is, all these things.
19:01
Because in many instances, we make an association of touch,
19:08
connection and meaning. So this connection, this touch
19:12
means this thing. So if I have a cheek to my cheek
19:15
here, what does that mean? You know, if I have a hands very
19:19
close to my neck, what does that mean?
19:22
And I think this all gets scrambled when the other cheek
19:25
next to yours is a dude's cheek, is a bearded dude's cheek, you
19:30
know? And then the meanings that you
19:33
once had, for example, Oh my God, do I like men.
19:37
And me growing up, this was a thing.
19:40
There was this extreme avoidance of giving any hint that I could
19:47
be homosexual, that I could like other guys.
19:51
So any sort of misunderstood? Exactly.
19:54
Exactly. So any sort of closeness that
19:58
would make any education we would avoid at all costs.
20:04
And it's something that creates a mechanism in your brain that
20:07
you're like, wait, do I like guys?
20:09
Am I, You know, for me and several of my friends of my
20:13
generation growing up take wait, if I do this, that means that so
20:19
if I do this thing here, that means that I like guys too.
20:22
And we would avoid at all costs. So learning how to dance with
20:26
other guys introduce me to this unconscious programming that I
20:32
had or fear that other people will see me not as a cisgender
20:37
heterosexual man, but will see me as something else.
20:41
You know. So I was more afraid of what
20:45
other people would think then what I was experiencing because
20:50
what I was experiencing was fine and cozy.
20:53
I was like, oh man, other people are going to think this thing
20:56
and combined with that had my own thinking, wait, do I, I
21:00
wait, I like this too much. Am I actually, you know, so all
21:05
these things came about and this happened in the course of the
21:09
years. I've been dancing for almost 10
21:13
years, 20 years now. And it took some time for me to
21:17
really dance, dance, dance with another guy as a follower or as
21:22
a Liege. That was not just for training,
21:24
that was not just for practice, that we were on social dancing.
21:30
So that process was not so immediate.
21:33
It took a while, especially because in Brazil at the time,
21:37
it was not common at all for a guy to come and invite you to
21:41
dance. So you lead them, you know, or
21:44
you were led by them. These things are more sort of
21:48
recent. Yeah, I mean, this is fully
21:50
connected to the outside life of those male dancers, right?
21:55
Because a lot of men don't feel very comfortable with other
22:00
people taking care of the household.
22:02
For example, if they get married and then their female partner
22:08
earns more or have a better job or have a better car or whatever
22:14
the example is, they feel less. They feel like they're not
22:19
enough of something. And if somebody's taking care of
22:24
them, they feel weird. They feel like, wow, this is not
22:28
my role. I'm supposed to be the one
22:29
taking care. I'm supposed to be the one in
22:31
charge. I'm supposed to be the one
22:33
planning and showing the way. And then when they come to
22:37
dance, they're faced with that, but in an environment that is
22:40
quite neutral because it's an environment that, at least in
22:44
the Brazilians community, thankfully, in most places,
22:49
people don't have an issue with that if they see it, especially
22:53
nowadays, it's just anything like whatever, like two men are
22:59
dancing, two women are dancing, a man is following.
23:03
It's very common and very welcoming.
23:05
And I find that with a lot of students, they've had kind of
23:10
like a mind shift about their own personal life outside of
23:14
dancing because of this experiencing dance, maybe
23:19
because of the people that they have in life outside of dance,
23:22
they never felt encouraged or never felt that they could
23:28
explore that. Whether it's because other
23:30
people in their lives would, again, like you said, would
23:35
think something of them or just because it was just no, no, no,
23:42
you know, these kind of things will never happen here.
23:45
But then in dance, they were allowed to try.
23:50
Let's put it this way, they were allowed to try in a place where
23:54
they won't feel judged or they won't be excluded or they won't
23:59
be looked down. If they try, I think that's very
24:03
empowering because then they can, you know, once they feel
24:07
very comfortable with that, they can go and look at their
24:10
personal life and change it and be OK with it, be OK with the
24:14
consequences, be OK with whatever happens because they
24:18
found that there is a different way and that different way
24:23
actually makes them happier. So I love that dancing opens
24:27
that space for people. And I mean, I know that this is
24:31
not exactly what we're talking about in today's episode, but I
24:34
think that also happens for followers.
24:37
Followers who were in a certain position in all of their lives.
24:41
They came to dancing and they started following just because.
24:45
And then they start leading and then they feel that, Oh my God,
24:49
it's so powerful. It's so exciting.
24:52
It's so inspiring to be able to think and plan ahead in the
24:58
dance. And then maybe if they're
25:01
already not doing that in their life, they can go like, you know
25:04
what? I want to shift things in my
25:05
personal life and I don't want to just, you know, be the person
25:11
who is going to follow what the family says or what your partner
25:14
says or what their job says. They want to make their own
25:18
destiny and goals. I think that helps both in the
25:23
community. Yeah, I agree so much with that.
25:27
The thing is that men are raised.
25:31
I mean, let's see, I'm talking about my experience and people
25:35
that I know. We are raised to be like, what
25:40
in the dance is the container that is the leader.
25:43
And women were raised to, not raised to be, but end up being
25:49
the flow, the thing that flows inside the container.
25:53
And when we go to dance, we end up replicating.
25:57
We just replicate that, you know, and a leader is a
26:02
container provides the boundaries, the supports the
26:06
direction, the decisions and the follower finds their way to
26:11
shine and to thrive inside a container, right?
26:15
So I think one of the experience that we talked about here
26:18
before, I think when Paloma was here too, we talked about this,
26:22
this idea that when you have competency in the side of the
26:27
container, you have the flow of being able to fully express
26:32
themselves and be able to, you know, to shine and to thrive.
26:38
There are aspects of both happening at the same time.
26:41
The container flows and the flows also contains there.
26:45
So the leader follows and the follow also leads.
26:47
What I think it's magical about this experience of partner
26:52
dancing is when the person who is normally in the position of
26:58
being making all the decisions, doing all this stuff and gets
27:04
the opportunity to be the one to be LED, to be guided and vice
27:09
versa. So back in the Java Russia days,
27:14
like, and I think we talked about this period in some
27:16
episodes before too, we had these extremely powerful women
27:20
in positions of extreme influence that dance was the
27:25
place that they wanted nothing to do with making any decisions.
27:31
You know, they want really to be held and taking places.
27:35
And in this experience of doing workshops for leaders, for
27:39
primary leaders who are all men to learn how to follow as well,
27:44
you also see how hard it is sometimes for them to allow
27:49
themselves to be flow, to allow themselves to go inside of
27:53
container and be taken, be held and be taken around.
27:59
What has been really interesting about observing that taking
28:03
place is hearing their observations about it, hear what
28:07
they have to say. And the thing that for me was
28:11
perhaps the most impactful is when they mentioned when they
28:15
are leading, they are not able to tell so much the difference
28:20
between one person and the other.
28:22
So when they are leading, the other leaders in the room who
28:25
were following the other guys, they said felt pretty much the
28:28
same. When they switched to the
28:31
follower rule, when they got into a container and became
28:35
flow, they said, Oh my God, from one person to the other was a
28:39
world of difference. So what that demonstrated to me
28:46
is just by switching rule, the same person is able to become
28:52
more sensitive or to switch a different part of the brain of
28:56
their beings that allows them to be more connected to how
28:59
something feels like. Because when they were connected
29:03
to the role of the container and I need to guide, I need to do
29:08
these things, I have to be right, all these things.
29:11
They were so focused on the task of doing something that they
29:16
could not feel the difference between one person and the
29:20
other. So when we talk about matters of
29:22
sensuality and sensitivity connected to the senses, your
29:27
skin, your eyes, your hearing, all these things, they ended up
29:32
enhancing their sensuality in the sense of enhancing their
29:36
perception of their senses simply by switching roles.
29:41
And there was something really, really magical that I was not
29:45
expecting at all, which made me wonder if one day we could have
29:53
filmed the beginning people learning both roles from the
29:56
beginning. Like in the university system
29:59
here in the West, they would go into undergrads.
30:01
Then you learn all these things and then you decide later what
30:03
you want to be. And so something like that in
30:06
this, you come in the first class, the very basic class, you
30:09
learn in the fall at the same time switching rules, and then
30:13
you decide which one you want to dedicate more time to.
30:16
Something like this, you know, because I have this deep desire
30:20
to somehow teach people or somehow bring about more
30:25
perception of the senses, perception of pressure,
30:28
perception of tension, perception of momentum.
30:32
And those guys over there, simply by switching role, they
30:37
were able to do that. Well, I God damn it, it's right
30:39
there in front of me happening, you know?
30:43
Absolutely. And another thing that I want to
30:46
talk about is the fact that a lot of this fears comes from the
30:52
fear of feeling sensual or sexual towards another man.
30:58
You know, it's already an issue between a man and a woman, but
31:04
when we think about like two men, like you said, you know,
31:07
beard to beard and hairy arm to hairy arm and all those things,
31:12
men feel like, Oh my God, I could never because Zook is such
31:16
a intimate and sensual dance or makes you express your
31:22
sexuality, which we already talked about in previous
31:26
episodes where sexuality doesn't necessarily means to have sex
31:31
and to, you know, go for the next thing.
31:34
Sexuality is energy and flow and how you feel about yourself.
31:38
Even confident can be some expression of sexuality.
31:43
I think that it's always so much fun when you see leaders, male
31:51
leaders who don't ever follow or don't usually follow, and we are
31:56
doing an exercise in class and then they start following.
31:59
Oh, dear. It's like, OK, I'm going to
32:02
quote a reference here that may not be familiar for everybody,
32:05
but it feels like I see a drag queen being born most of the
32:11
time. I see this, you know, man, who
32:14
is like, hey, bro, yeah, whatever.
32:16
And then we're doing class dance exercise, and now they're
32:20
followers. And then you see them weeping,
32:22
their hair doing little booty rolls and things like that.
32:26
And I'm like, that's so nice. Become a beautiful.
32:28
Butterfly yes, but you know, we know that they're doing that in
32:34
a men locker room type of situation where they're making
32:38
fun of it. But the intention, the
32:41
expression is there in a way that you know what if they feel
32:45
comfortable enough to do that, let's do that in a way that it's
32:48
not just funny. Let's do that in a way that
32:51
you're actually being honest and genuine about it.
32:55
I think it's the next step because you know when men are
32:57
uncomfortable, they just make jokes and make fun of everything
33:00
and that's how they feel comfortable around other men.
33:04
But what if we're actually do it, you know, and feel it and
33:08
let yourself not just perform it, but let yourself embrace it.
33:14
And to me very personally, you know, disclaimer here, I am
33:20
someone who identifies as pansexual.
33:23
So for me, the man, woman, anything between above and below
33:28
has never been an issue for me because my entire life I've
33:32
never felt that there was a difference.
33:35
And it wasn't until a few years ago that I fully realized, oh,
33:39
that's because of how I am and that's how I see things in the
33:44
gender world. But I see that for a lot of men,
33:49
a lot of women, this can be an issue.
33:51
You know, the sensuality, the sexuality, when taken from a
33:55
very pure place, not a playful sarcastic place.
34:01
Yeah, man, you mentioned in that reminded me of being a workshop
34:06
where there was a very muggle man there.
34:10
Guys, for those who are listening, so first we talked
34:13
about nihalism, mention sexuality and sexual energy.
34:18
I think we have 3 episodes about that.
34:20
We have one, one just US1 with Nelly and one with Paloma.
34:27
If it is your first time listening to us, go back to
34:29
those episodes. They are really, really
34:32
incredible, you know, a lot of valuable information.
34:36
And the Mongo people is referred just to those who don't dance OK
34:40
and like in a very caring way. And I was in a Weekender of
34:45
sorts and this dancer brought her boyfriend and I was in
34:51
rotation doing the exercises and I ended up with her boyfriend
34:55
and it was a connection. Well, it was an exercise of
34:58
touch in the sense of understanding the difference
35:00
between sliding your hand through the skin and letting the
35:04
hand be more grippy. Super interesting.
35:09
The guy, he was touching me. If you are not watching, he was
35:13
basically tapping my arm. So in the sliding portion of the
35:18
exercise, he was doing this with the tip of his fingers.
35:24
And I just looked down to that hand and looked at him and I
35:29
could see in his eyes that he was extremely uncomfortable.
35:32
And when he switched to and there was a follower and then a
35:36
woman came, a lady came in the next rotation.
35:39
And then I look and he was doing the exercise.
35:43
You know, he was sliding his hands on her forearm.
35:46
So I could see and feel the difference between when he did
35:52
the exercise with me, another guy, and then we did the
35:54
exercise with another woman. So for us, I think, and those
36:00
listening to Zook Nerds might identify with that as well, this
36:06
idea of connecting physically with another man, two men
36:10
connecting in that way, it becomes more and more common and
36:14
more and more. That's not the Tuesday, that's
36:16
not the Wednesday, you know. And it's really interesting
36:19
because when we are shooting the documentary and I'm talking the
36:22
things and I saw a little bit of the footage, my eyes looking at
36:27
it just see as another day in the office, you know, just doing
36:31
your thing. But I keep thinking about how it
36:34
is to the eyes of someone who is not used to this world, who is
36:38
not used to connect with another man with that amount of
36:42
affection that in his mini making machine of their brains
36:47
is connected to intimacy with the opposite sex, you know, So
36:51
it must be really fascinating. Like you said now, so you see
36:55
drag Queens being born. I I could see this guy really,
37:00
really uncomfortable with a simple hand on the forearm
37:04
sliding exercise. That was really, really
37:07
interesting to me to witness because there are two, I think
37:13
the world in general have two incredibly powerful powers.
37:18
We talk about 1 here very often, which is the power of reference,
37:22
the power of the reference point and the silence way in which it
37:28
shapes how you see things, how you think about things and how
37:31
you do things. And there's another one, which
37:34
is the power of contrast. This one is also incredibly
37:38
powerful because it shows you different world views in a way
37:43
that challenges your perception. And in the dense universe, after
37:48
starting dancing, I started to become curious about human
37:51
interaction, human touch, human sensuality.
37:55
I experienced several instances of extreme contrast between one
38:02
place and the other one next door.
38:05
So I remember being in trainings and events and situations in
38:10
which a guy held me in a way that only women would, you know,
38:16
help me with such a tenderness. Look me in the eye, got the face
38:20
this close to me. Said how happy they were to see
38:23
me give me a kiss on the cheek and moved on.
38:26
And I was like what the hell just happened?
38:29
Now see them doing this with everybody.
38:31
So the level of affection that existed towards everyone, it was
38:37
so big that when I came back to my life and I saw how I would do
38:43
the same thing to another guy and it was like not even 5% of
38:47
what that other guy did to me. That contrast made me wonder,
38:53
what is it that I'm doing? How am I doing?
38:55
Why am I doing the way am I doing?
38:57
There is the matter of personality, of course.
38:59
There are people who are naturally more comfortable with
39:02
the level of closes, people who are less.
39:04
You know, it's that thing that we see sometimes in the dance of
39:08
the context. And the dance gives you the
39:12
permission to be and to behave in ways that you wouldn't
39:16
otherwise. So in that context, the way in
39:19
which I was approached, it was so different from the way that I
39:24
was used to. That made me wonder, you know,
39:27
and the same thing, for example, with this experience that I just
39:30
shared, everybody was doing the exercise, you know, sliding
39:35
their hands on the forearm and then come this other person and
39:38
then tapped my forearm out of discomfort contrast.
39:43
So that contrast calls your attention and makes you think
39:47
about things, you know. So in my journey, these two
39:51
things have been really powerful in what comes to how do I go
39:55
about affection with another man, connection with another
39:59
man, and this with another man by the contrast of my experience
40:05
and how I was doing things versus how others were doing to
40:09
me as well and with others. So I don't know how that
40:13
resonates with you as soon, but there has been really, really
40:17
powerful in my growing up. As a dancer, as a person.
40:22
Yeah, for me, I never really see the difference between a man or
40:28
a woman or anything between because of just how I am, like I
40:33
mentioned before. But when it comes to dancing, I
40:37
do feel something different in the role, right?
40:43
Like when I'm a follower, I want to be taken care of.
40:47
Like when a leader comes and dances with me and they're kind
40:51
of like scared or they're not being clear with their words,
40:57
and I mean words meaning like they're leading.
41:01
It makes me feel a little disconnected.
41:04
But when a leader, male or female, comes and dances with me
41:11
and they embrace me, they take care of me, they make me feel
41:15
safe, Oh, boy, I want that. Yes, Being a person that in my
41:21
personal life and professional life, I'm always the one needing
41:25
to, you know, have everything ready for everybody to have
41:30
somebody to just, you know, tell me with their touch or with
41:35
their hug, it's OK, Don't worry about it.
41:38
I'm just like he has. I kind of melt.
41:42
I melt because it's the feeling that type of connection
41:46
provides. And this is not in any way,
41:49
shape or form leading up to an attraction in a sexual way or
41:55
relationship way. It's very much about that moment
41:59
in dance, right? Well, have I ever felt attracted
42:05
to another woman or man in dance?
42:07
Yes, of course I have, But that was a different experience,
42:11
different sensation. I'm talking more about that
42:14
moment that the person made me feel a certain way.
42:18
And I think that's so powerful when men dancing with men allows
42:24
that to happen. Sometimes you see that and you
42:28
see a lot of the times you see this man who have this caveman
42:35
style personality or presence about them.
42:39
And then when they finally let somebody hug them in dance and
42:45
really like connect with them, you see the softness and you're
42:50
like, wow, you know there is a person inside of that person
42:53
that wants that. Like there's a saying that there
42:57
is a child inside of you. No matter how old you are, there
43:00
is a child inside of you, and that child wants to be taken
43:04
care of. That child wants to be seen and
43:08
to be held and to be touched. But society?
43:11
No, no, no. You know you, you don't do that.
43:14
You know, you got to be caveman. You got to honor your pants.
43:17
You got to earn the income and provide.
43:21
It's such a thing that I'm so glad that men who take the leap
43:25
and come into the dance community, especially Brazilian
43:28
Zook. I'm not going to say that about
43:29
other communities because there's a lot of communities out
43:31
there that are very macho macho. But that's another episode.
43:37
Some Brazilian Zook and other dance communities.
43:42
I'm so glad that we are all able to have these other experiences.
43:47
You just said that there is a child inside of us who wants to
43:50
be held, who wants to connect and who wants to be touched.
43:54
And that is super interesting because when I moved to the US
43:57
in 2000, I first came in 2017 and I was researching why people
44:03
would dance so far away from each other.
44:05
I was in the zoo class. There was a space of two people
44:08
between people and I was like, people, why are you dancing so
44:11
far, you know? It's Jesus, the Bible and the
44:14
pastor between them. Exactly, all of the three of
44:17
them. And then I started researching
44:21
this thing and I found these things about touch of starvation
44:25
and the loneliness epidemic and all of these things that I
44:29
wasn't aware of until I came here.
44:32
And even the word touch became associated with something
44:38
inappropriate. So our English speaking person
44:41
there, because our mother language is Portuguese.
44:44
So when we say toca to touch, it means to put your hands, It
44:48
means like to, you know, have skin to skin contact in English.
44:52
When you say there's a kid, there's a child inside of us who
44:55
wants to be held, wants to be touched.
44:57
The English speaking language like, Oh my God, you know,
45:03
because the. Words In Australia I had so many
45:06
students who would laugh but they didn't tell me because when
45:10
I moved to Australia I knew 0 English and as I started
45:14
learning English I was teaching class and I'm like OK people I
45:17
need you to touch yourself. Yes, Just pause for a second,
45:21
guys. Just pause for a second.
45:24
Your dance teacher is telling you to touch yourself.
45:27
I understand what that means today.
45:29
Today, maybe like three years after I started teaching
45:33
English. The first three years, people,
45:36
some would be uncomfortable, others would laugh.
45:39
And I'll just be left there, you know, no idea what was going on.
45:44
But yeah, I mean, for us, yeah. It doesn't mean the same thing.
45:49
Exactly guys. So if you stop to think about
45:51
how crazy that is, that a simple word that refers to a simple
45:54
act, touch becomes associated with something sexual and
45:58
inappropriate just shows how in the bad of a shape we are.
46:03
Yes. So just like something that you
46:06
said, Allison, that you know, now that I think more with the
46:10
English speaking brain, more and more and more immediately when
46:14
you said the words, the meaning came.
46:17
And I know that meaning is not mine.
46:20
That meaning was implanted in my head after years living here and
46:24
speaking the language, you know, and knowing how that shapes
46:28
things. So we cannot say the word touch.
46:30
We need to say physical connection.
46:32
You know, we have to say put your hands on the other person's
46:35
body. We cannot just say touch that
46:38
person. You know how crazy that is?
46:41
It's so crazy. In the end, like you said, I
46:45
think Brazilian Zook part in dancing in this way provides us
46:49
a container, a place where we have the permission, we have the
46:54
possibility of connecting at the human level, despite of gender.
47:01
You know, it doesn't matter that because you are a man, you can
47:06
only be the one that holds, You know?
47:08
That's not the point anymore. It becomes the two humans. 2.
47:12
Human beings have an environment when we can hold and be held
47:18
because we care about each other, because we care for each
47:21
other, and because we are in that environment to bring more
47:25
life into our lives through movements, through music,
47:29
through laughter, through exercising the creative being.
47:35
And then if you watched the episode in which we talk about
47:39
sexual energy and we talk about the five uses of sexual energy,
47:42
two of them are creativity and inspiration.
47:46
So You Can Dance with another man, be overflowing with sexual
47:51
energy with another guy. And that has absolutely nothing
47:55
to do with the first meaning that normally people associate,
47:58
which is the sexual experience, having sex.
48:01
We are experiencing pleasure, We're experiencing creativity.
48:05
We're experiencing inspiration. The presence of something
48:08
between us as well. The presence of something
48:10
between us is always there. Which is a reference to one of
48:14
our last episodes that please go back to the presence of
48:18
something between us. That was a very, very
48:22
interesting and nerve wracking episode.
48:24
But in the end, it was an amazing episode.
48:27
And let me just be clear here guys, Brazil is not this rainbow
48:33
colored place, OK? We were very lucky to be
48:37
surrounded by people and in very progressive cities and
48:42
communities because Brazil is pretty homophobic in a lot of
48:46
places. Like it's pretty, pretty dark.
48:50
Brazil is beautiful. Carnival samba, yay, yay, yay.
48:53
But that's in two cities across the country.
48:56
The country can get pretty far from that in majority of the
49:01
country I would say. Yeah, Brazil is still a very
49:04
conservative country. Brazil is highly patriarchal.
49:08
Violence against women is still pretty high, unfortunately.
49:12
So all these things are really very present.
49:14
Like Allison said, we are lucky to have been around people and
49:17
in general, Brazilians are more affectioned towards each other
49:21
in everyday life. So the good things and the bad
49:24
things. And one last thing I said, I
49:27
always remember. Remember the thing you said the
49:29
first time we danced together when I went to apartments, and
49:32
then we danced together for the first time when you arrived
49:34
here. 2019. The way you try to describe my
49:38
embrace. I don't remember, but I remember
49:41
the feeling. Yeah, remember the feeling very
49:44
vividly, but I don't remember the words.
49:48
The word that he used was like, you were having a hard time
49:51
describing how it felt like. And, you know, like, I think you
49:55
embrace and then you said he almost felt sexual.
50:04
And that was the word that you used, you know, for the feeling.
50:07
I remember just now how interesting that are because
50:10
here we are years later talking about sexual energy in a
50:13
podcast, Men dance with men. And when we had our first
50:18
experience dancing together as well, and how that resonated
50:22
with us and the words that we try to use to describe how
50:26
things felt. Yeah, I remember the feeling.
50:29
And the feeling to me was something so nice and so
50:33
beautiful, but something that I hadn't felt in such such a long
50:40
time with a dancer that to me, it was like hard to describe
50:44
because I'm like probably in the last years, the last 10 years,
50:48
the only time that I felt this type of touch and feeling was
50:54
with somebody that was being intimate with me, you know?
50:58
So like, I was lacking that experience in dance.
51:03
And I'll say and put my hands up here, it's probably because as
51:08
you've heard in previous episodes before that for a long
51:12
time I was closed off. So even if somebody was open to
51:19
give me that experience, I don't think I was letting them
51:23
anywhere close to me or to feeling like they could give me
51:28
that experience. But yeah, when we were dancing,
51:31
I was just like, OK, this is it, blank canvas.
51:36
Don't think about anything. Just try your best to simply be
51:40
in the moment. And that allowed me to just go
51:44
and feel all of those things that I mean, I think the inner
51:47
child, like I mentioned before, was really craving, craving to
51:52
feel. And when I say sexual, I didn't
51:56
mean sexual in a way of being intimate in a sexual way, but
52:03
being intimate in a caring, in a vulnerable way, you know?
52:08
So yes, sexual, but sexual invulnerability, sexual in
52:14
allowing myself to open up and even cry if I feel like it, you
52:18
know, that type of sexuality. No, I took, I took it as a
52:22
compliment. I was like, woo Hoo, yes.
52:26
You broke the Iceman, Yeah. That was like, yeah, that's it.
52:30
Because I knew it was like a way to find words, you know, to
52:35
describe and what has been interesting, which has been
52:38
really good, I think, which for me represents a shift coming to
52:43
the US five years ago. No, not five years ago, seven
52:46
years ago and seeing people dancing so far away from each
52:49
other. And now I'm experiencing
52:51
majority of my private lessons are for guys who are primary
52:55
leaders. And some of them ask me to dance
52:59
with them for like, can we dance for like 15 minutes?
53:03
And I say, do you want me to follow you?
53:05
No, no, no, I want you to leave me.
53:08
They are not even secondary followers.
53:10
They are fourth theory followers.
53:14
You know they are really. Leader, Leader, leader.
53:18
Hardcore and doesn't even know La Terao.
53:21
They have been leading La Terao for three years, but they know
53:23
how to execute La Terao as a follower.
53:26
And it's that giant man testing up their whole body.
53:29
But they still want to dance as a follower for like 15 to 20
53:32
minutes, you know they want. To dance, honey.
53:36
And it's so funny because we are normally the same height.
53:39
So I finished with that little rash, little scratchy here on my
53:43
cheekbone on the right side because that's where their
53:46
cheekbone is and their beard is rubbing against my face because
53:52
you know of all of that. So I finished with the eye a
53:54
little swollen here because of all the exfoliation that I just
53:58
experienced. But it's been really interesting
54:00
to see the curiosity to feel. That for me is the biggest win.
54:07
The curiosity to feel like feel what people talk about when they
54:13
allow themselves to be held. That's the experience that
54:16
during the workshops with the guys who have been experienced,
54:19
there was 1 instance in which we're doing a hug exercise and
54:24
they would hold each other all the way up to here, all the way
54:26
up to the neck, beginning of the neck, from the neck up, the head
54:30
would be removed. So they were full body contact,
54:34
but not my face, Bra. The face is secret.
54:37
I will not give it to you. You know, chew towards the end
54:41
of the workshop where the face surrenders.
54:46
So then they allow themselves to go to that last little bit of
54:51
intimacy, surrender whatever words we want to use for this
54:55
act of allowing their cheek, their head, their forehead to
54:58
touch another guy's one, you know, And that was the moment
55:02
that I've been doing these workshops with Kunan that I
55:06
looked at Kuna and we had this finally thinking our.
55:12
So that was the moment that I felt a big sense of
55:15
accomplishments, you know, and the meaning that he had for me
55:20
was he finally happens. They allow themselves to be held
55:26
sort of that's rendering of the hedge that allowing that rest to
55:30
happen. It was the last layer of
55:33
resistance that dissolved, at least in that moment, at least
55:37
for that moment with that people in that room and was really good
55:43
to see that they just became 2 human beings holding each other.
55:47
One human being holding the other, one the most important
55:50
and the other one allowing, allowing themselves to be held.
55:54
Which I think in the end of the day is what, like we said before
55:58
now is what Partner Dance provides to us, an environment
56:02
that we can be safely held by someone in a container that
56:06
gives us the permission to do that, you know, without, without
56:11
the fears and the meanings that is normally given outside of
56:15
that context, you know. So I think that this work that
56:19
we ended up doing as a result of the documentary has brought to
56:25
me this very fulfilling to notice the result, to witness
56:30
the result. Well, I do hope that a lot more
56:33
people can experience that and hopefully somewhere near you,
56:38
Ghee Prada will be coming with these workshops.
56:41
So sign up for these workshops. Well, start with the master of
56:45
social dancing. That's an amazing one that you
56:48
can already get a glimpse of it. But if not, please connect with
56:52
Ghee, connect with me wherever we see each other.
56:56
And please follow, subscribe, like, share, do all the things
57:02
to help us continue growing this episode and sharing more with
57:06
you and hopefully talking about things that makes the community.
57:11
Better. So thank you once again for
57:14
being here. Thank you, guy, for talking
57:17
about this topic with us and with everybody in the community.
57:21
And we'll see you guys on the next one.
57:24
So Beiges, Beiges, Abrasus and Ciao.
57:30
Everyone.