Latest / What Bitcoin Did / Don’t Lose Your Bitcoin Generational Wealth | BTC Sessions

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Don’t Lose Your Bitcoin Generational Wealth | BTC Sessions · What Bitcoin Did

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If something happened to you this second, would your family be able to access your Bitcoin?
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It's important for you to start informing your next of kin, you know, roughly what happens when it's their time to claim that.
0:17
You need to get your shit together now because you don't know if you're going to, you know, be listening to this podcast and get hit by a bus crossing the street.
0:27
Bitcoin is just beginning.
0:30
It's just scratching the surface of its full potential as freedom money.
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Create value for others, spend less than you earn,
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and save in a money that nobody else can print.
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You're going to be pretty well off.
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I've thought maybe the idea of retail wasn't going to happen this cycle.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, there's a weird phenomenon where it's almost like,
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for the first time,
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Bitcoin is not risky enough.
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Like everybody's so-
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A hundred percent.
1:00
Downtrodden that, yeah.
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It's funny.
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I got a comment on one of the videos the other day
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because I had,
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I think it was when I had Samson Mao on.
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Yeah.
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And he'd been on the old show.
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Yeah.
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And I like started by going,
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welcome to the new show.
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You've not been on this one yet.
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Yeah.
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And one of the comments was like,
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there was an old show.
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And then someone replied underneath me
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and like Peter McCormack used to have it.
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He's like, who's Peter McCormack?
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I need to read.
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So there's clearly signs that new people are coming in.
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Yeah, this is crazy.
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Which is what I think we need, though.
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We need retail.
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Not necessarily, we don't need them to pump the price.
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I think the marginal difference they make
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probably isn't the same as it used to be,
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but I want more and more people to have Bitcoin.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's weird.
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Odell was on a week or two ago,
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and he's like, yeah,
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as soon as I deleted Twitter,
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and it didn't take long,
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it was like a year or two,
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and then I was on some shows
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and people would be like,
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who's this guy just like repeating
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like Bitcoin catchphrases.
2:01
Stay humble, success.
2:02
Yeah.
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He came up with it, dude.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I've seen them about Odell as well.
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It's like, who's the guy talking over everyone?
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But this is a side up.
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He never really left Twitter.
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He's just doing it all through the 1030.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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Sorry, Odell.
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But Sessions,
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this is your first time on the new show.
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It is.
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I'm excited.
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introduce yourself man yeah um yeah so my name's ben i run a youtube channel called btc sessions
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it's uh nine and a half years running holy shit 10 years 10 years coming up next june um
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and uh yeah so it's all it started from a place of uh bitcoin education so i spent two years prior
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trying to figure out how to use Bitcoin.
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And it was very difficult.
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There was no, I'm a visual learner
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and there was no video material on it.
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And so once I kind of got through the initial foray
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and figured a few things out,
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I thought it might be useful for a few people
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to be able to watch how I navigated using Bitcoin.
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And here we are.
3:08
I knew you'd had the channel for a long time,
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but I didn't know it had been that long.
3:10
Yeah.
3:11
That must be one of the oldest Bitcoin,
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like educational channels that are still going.
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It could be, yeah, 2016.
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Holy shit, I can't believe that's nearly 10 years ago.
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Neither can I.
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I was thinking that's like 2011 or something.
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Yeah, no, no.
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It's, yeah, almost 10 years.
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I can't believe it.
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But hey, I didn't think it was going to be a job.
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I thought it would be a hobby, but.
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Here we are.
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Yeah.
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And now you're teaching human rights activists
3:39
from all around the world how to use Bitcoin.
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Yeah.
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It's kind of cool.
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It's wild.
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Like the people that I get to interact with and educate is unbelievable.
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It's the Human Rights Foundation, all the HRF events, and everything that I get to do with them is some of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had in Bitcoin.
4:01
Oh, 100%.
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Like even like I'm not working with them directly like you are, but I go to the events they put on.
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Like the stories you hear are crazy.
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And this idea that Bitcoin is no longer freedom money, I just don't think is true.
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And I think I fell for it a little bit.
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I was worried that we were all going to be rich and depressed
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because the project failed.
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And I don't actually think that's true.
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You see people using Bitcoin in ways that you can't even understand.
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And it's just incredible.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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There's a misconception that just because,
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what's the term?
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The loving term of suit coiners.
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Just because suit coiners exist
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doesn't preclude freedom fighters from using Bitcoin.
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Again, Bitcoin's for enemies and people are going to use it however they see fit.
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Some people will create treasury companies and put it into ETFs.
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Other people will literally fund revolutions.
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So, I mean-
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It's pretty fucking wild.
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It's crazy.
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Like some of the events that I've been to, everybody stands up 10 seconds on what you
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do and why you're here.
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you know, I could, oh, I create videos about Bitcoin on YouTube. And then like four or five
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people in the room will stand up and have literally toppled dictators. Yeah. I saw in the agenda,
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we're at the Global Bitcoin Summit. This isn't going out until afterwards, so I can say that.
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Yeah. And in the agenda, like the start of it is everyone introducing themselves very,
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very briefly. And I'm going to feel like such a larp. There's people that are like using Bitcoin
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to fight dictatorships, like Bitcoin saved my life. Like I make videos and people sometimes listen.
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Yeah. The quality of people that are here, again, to your point, some people thinking Bitcoin isn't freedom money because there's institutions that have hopped on board. It couldn't be further from the truth. If anything, Bitcoin is just beginning. It's just scratching the surface of its full potential as freedom money.
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going to the Oslo Freedom Forum since 2022, I think was my first year there.
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And seeing the progression of Bitcoiners being there and being the odd ones out.
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Why are these guys here? What's going on?
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Year to year, the next year, a few extra people in the room that are not Bitcoiners,
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but asking questions is almost like a gotcha.
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Like, oh, I'm going to prove them why this can't possibly work in my situation, to the next year filling in even more, people genuinely curious, to the following year, those very same people now being Bitcoin educators for all of their network.
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The amount of change that has taken place is staggering, but for us, it feels slow because we get to watch every step of the way. But when you look back, it's happening very quickly.
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It really is.
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And I think the other reason it can feel slow
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is because on Bitcoin, not a lot of changes.
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Occasionally, you get little improvements.
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You get things that everyone's going to fight about on Twitter.
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Yeah.
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But on the other layers with ARK, Spark, eCash,
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things are moving really rapidly.
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Yeah.
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There's so many...
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And just the usability of tools.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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I mean, when I started doing tutorials,
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the most frequent question I got asked is,
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aren't you going to run out of stuff to do?
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Nothing could be further from the truth. The list of things to make videos on is growing far faster than I could possibly cover them. And I remember even just a few years ago starting to do the first videos on multisig. And to your point on usability, multisig was a mess. Like I would make a wallet somewhere and I'd say, oh, can I use it with a different app? And it just nothing poured it over. And it was just, you know, it was horrifying.
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And now it's like, oh, I can use this or this or this and I can migrate and it all just kind of works.
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It's pretty incredible.
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I think maybe a good place to kind of start with this is I think there are retail people coming back.
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I think we're having new people come to Bitcoin.
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They're probably hearing us talk about things like self-custody and not keeping Bitcoin on exchange or with an ETF provider.
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Like, let's start with how people can go from sort of zero to 100.
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But even before that, like, why should people do it?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, and you're right, retail is coming in, but I think, funny enough, they're coming in through treasury companies right now.
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I agree.
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Yeah.
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And they're probably seeing that maybe Bitcoin is the thing they should be holding.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So, first, the why, because people need the motivation.
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The whole premise of Bitcoin is to be self-sovereign, to be in control.
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It was built from a place of lack of trust in existing infrastructure and monetary systems.
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You can always be rug pulled in one way or the other, whether it's losing actual custody or whether it's the debasement of the currency itself. And really, you don't have control over those things in the traditional system. And so how best to do that? You need to take self custody of Bitcoin so that nobody can censor you, nobody can tell you no.
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So, I mean, the first thing you need to attack is where are you going to get your Bitcoin?
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And even this can be a nuanced answer.
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Like, how worried are you about privacy?
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All of that.
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Typically, I take people down the easiest route first.
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And then I say, okay, if you're comfortable with this, then we can level up from there.
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But, you know, depending on the jurisdiction, what's available to you, what companies can you get Bitcoin from?
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You're going to lose some privacy by using an online exchange, but at least it'll get your foot in the door.
9:53
You'll learn how to obtain Bitcoin and transact.
9:56
If you already self-custody of Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets.
9:59
Complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten.
10:05
Well, BitKey fixes that.
10:06
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10:11
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10:21
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11:21
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11:24
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11:25
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11:34
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11:56
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12:01
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12:06
head over to ledin.io forward slash WBD and you'll get 0.25% off your first loan. That's ledin.io
12:14
forward slash WBD. So like trying to get people to go full privacy straight out the gate is going
12:20
to be a lift. And if you're moving from an ETF or a treasury company, it's still a better option.
12:24
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because at the end of the day, if you hold Bitcoin, but in reality,
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somebody else is holding Bitcoin for you, at any point, that can be rug pulled, right? Any point,
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they can tell you, no, you don't have access to this. Or in a nightmare scenario, you're not allowed
12:44
to hold Bitcoin anymore. We're going to exchange the dollar value of the Bitcoin now, and then
12:50
take it for the state or whatever it may be.
12:52
And all that might seem far-fetched, but it's really not.
12:54
Like that could absolutely happen.
12:57
And I think when it comes to sort of self-custody in Bitcoin,
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if someone's bought Bitcoin, they understand why they should.
13:02
Like there's so many trade-offs.
13:04
And I just did a show with the seed signer guy.
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I think he says some interesting things.
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What I was nervous about with that show is it did sound a little like
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he was kind of shitting on every hardware wallet,
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that there was an issue with them.
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And I just, I don't think that's true.
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I understand why you want to be cautious,
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why you want to be skeptical.
13:24
You might need to upgrade over the years
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and all that stuff.
13:26
But that is the place to start.
13:28
And even there, it's not like you go directly
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to a very complex multi-sig setup.
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And like BitKey responds to the show.
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I think they fit a perfect part of the market
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where it's just easy.
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And there are trade-offs.
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There's always trade-offs.
13:41
Yeah, of course.
13:41
But it's like a simple setup.
13:43
So what would you say people should start with?
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So, yeah, I mean, I typically, three things that you want to tackle right out the gate as a brand new Bitcoin or experiencing self-custody, as I said, where are you going to get your Bitcoin? So figure that out jurisdictionally, what's available.
13:59
Two, I would say first practice with a hot wallet.
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So again, there's going to be newbies that maybe watch this.
14:06
What the hell is a hot wallet?
14:07
A hot wallet just means that the ability to spend the credentials or the keys to your money reside on a device that is connected to the internet, your phone, your computer, whatever.
14:17
It's just an app basically.
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And that's fine for day-to-day spending, practicing, learning, but treat it like cash in your pocket.
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You wouldn't walk around with your life savings as cash in your pocket, so you don't want to do that with a hot wallet either.
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But they're fine for day-to-day.
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So I would say first order of business is get a decent app where you can use it on your phone.
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Lots of examples of that, something like Blue Wallet or Aqua Wallet or even Nunchuck, things like that, where you can just download an app, receive some Bitcoin, and just use it.
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Beyond that, then it's, okay, we're getting into savings territory. We've built up a little bit of a nest egg here. We want to keep it secure and offline. So the keys to your money now reside externally from your phone or your computer.
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So they're either on a device as with SeedSigner, it's typically like either paper or a metal plate or something like that. But the idea is the keys themselves can't be remotely accessed by anybody.
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What do I start people with? It depends on my understanding of where the person is at technologically, because some people are going to be super timid.
15:41
So you were talking about BitKey sponsoring the show.
15:45
They are cornering a specific subset of the market.
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The people that probably wouldn't have self-custody in the first place,
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but they have this thing and they can put a thumb on it
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and they tap it to their phone.
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And the app's super easy to assess.
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I put my mom and dad on a BitKey because if it was that or an exchange,
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it's clearly a better option.
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They're not prepared already to go to a cold card.
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Yeah.
16:11
And so maybe, should we just go through them?
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Because I want this to almost be like a 101.
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Should we go through the trade-offs of each?
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Yeah, of course.
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Bitkey, very simple.
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What are the trade-offs there?
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So the trade-offs there would be that it's cold storage,
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but it's kind of like warm.
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What I mean by that is there's multiple keys involved.
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There's the device itself that is cold.
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The key is on a device that's not connected to the internet.
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There's a key on your phone, and there's a key on the server of BitKey.
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At any one time, you need two keys to access the money.
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But two of the keys are technically accessible via internet-connected devices or servers or whatever.
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So while BitKey, you can set parameters where that key that they have won't approve a transaction, so you require your device in the phone.
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there are instances where you can spend with the two online keys.
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And I imagine they have pretty good security practices there,
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but there's that possibility that somebody could compromise your phone and be able to spend.
17:26
But the tradeoff there is that instead of having to do seed phrase backups and things like that,
17:31
you can essentially lose advice and you can still access your money.
17:35
Yeah, exactly.
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So there's mitigation techniques.
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There's different, they've got lots of unique recovery ways.
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The other trade-offs that I would say would be that right now, currently, you're more or less forced into their ecosystem.
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So you must use their companion app with the device You can use it if you prefer another app or you want to migrate That going to be a barrier if you want to do that The other thing would be that the device
18:09
doesn't have a screen on it. And so typically the main issue there would be if your phone
18:19
is compromised, if there's some sort of malware or the app is not presenting the truth about what
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you're doing, your last line of defense is to look at the screen on the device, and that's kind of
18:30
your beacon of truth. You don't have that necessarily. You don't really have that with
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the bit key because there's no screen on it. It's just verify with thumbprint and tap. So you don't
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have that check. That said, with things being open source, there can be eyeballs on the code,
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making sure that it's doing what it's supposed to, whether the app or whatever. But if something
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were introduced and it wasn't caught yet, there's that possibility. I think the important thing for
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people to consider when they're doing this as well is like, what is your risk? Like, is your risk,
19:05
you know, being politically attacked or is it, you know, the $5 wrench attack? Or I think the
19:10
biggest risk to everyone is that they're going to mess something up. Yes. Yeah. You need to have a
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hierarchy of what do you think is most likely to happen? And statistically, the most likely thing
19:20
to happen is you're going to screw it up. And so depending on your level of tech savviness
19:28
and what you're comfortable with, you may make different decisions. And that's fine. People are
19:34
going to choose what they want to choose. The key thing is that if you can take control of your own
19:39
money, then you've gotten rid of the risk of an exchange rug pulling you. And that's probably one
19:46
of the greater risks out there that you can mitigate against. And if you have a system where
19:50
there's backups and different recovery paths and things like that, as with something like BitKey or
19:58
other examples that we're going to talk about, then you've already hedged against two of the
20:04
most important things that you can hedge against. Yeah. And I think that's why I like sort of
20:10
promoting BitKey because I do think that it gives people who aren't technically savvy a really good
20:16
option that's much, it's far better than having money on an exchange. And like I say, there's
20:19
always trade-offs. People should be aware of the trade-offs, but like if you deem yourself very
20:24
technical incompetent and you think the biggest chance of losing any Bitcoin is by you messing
20:29
it up, it's a pretty good option. So should we move up the stack? So I don't know what you want
20:32
to go to next. Maybe like Ledger? Yeah. So with Ledger, again, like I'm not a huge Ledger fan.
20:41
I've used Ledger's in the past.
20:43
I've done videos on Ledger and taught people how to use them,
20:46
but it wouldn't be one that I would lean into initially
20:49
for a variety of reasons.
20:51
One being that it's not open source,
20:55
so there's parts of the infrastructure there
20:57
where you can't really tell.
21:00
You can't go through the code and know what it's doing.
21:02
Not that the average person is going to do that,
21:04
but you want to know that some eyeballs have been on it.
21:07
So it's a bit of a black box.
21:09
You don't really know what's happening.
21:10
The other thing is that they more or less support just like every coin under the sun.
21:17
And why is that an issue?
21:19
So with greater complexity comes greater potential attack vectors.
21:24
And there's also just a man hour cost to that.
21:27
Like, do you, are you sacrificing, you know, R&D on better user experience for Bitcoin by supporting every new chain that comes out?
21:40
And with Ledger, you know, they they'll say, OK, well, you don't have to download anything other than the Bitcoin app because all the apps are segregated.
21:48
But like the fact that they support the other apps for the again, the complexity part, it means that it can support that.
21:58
So it's open to to those potential threats.
22:01
So overall, I'm not a big Ledger fan.
22:07
However, again, it does have a screen.
22:10
So again, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.
22:12
It does have a screen so you can look on the device and kind of verify what's on your computer is also on the device.
22:19
They have a variety of ways to connect.
22:22
They're mobile friendly.
22:26
They've got a lot of experience in kind of building it out.
22:29
I'm not a big fan of the UX, but the app on the phone and on the computer is very clean.
22:35
but just not my cup of tea
22:38
especially the close source nature of it.
22:41
The one thing I would give Ledger a lot of credit for
22:43
is their dungeon.
22:45
I think that's probably, I don't actually know this
22:48
but I think that's probably the most resource intensive
22:51
project out there that's looking at attacking
22:53
all of these different hardware wallets
22:54
to then disclose the vulnerabilities
22:56
to allow people to fix them.
22:57
Yeah, absolutely.
22:58
And they are really good with releasing reports
23:02
on any major vulnerabilities hacks.
23:07
There was one recently on-
23:09
It was something like Cod, right?
23:10
Yeah.
23:11
No, it was like the NPM attack,
23:14
something like if certain wallets were using JavaScript,
23:18
then there was a bit of an attack vector there.
23:21
That was a few weeks back, I think.
23:24
But there's definitely informative things
23:27
coming out of Ledger.
23:28
But again, as a Bitcoiner first,
23:32
I migrate to something that's Bitcoin only,
23:35
because Bitcoin only, open source,
23:38
all that kind of stuff.
23:39
Like, can you actually audit
23:40
it's doing what it says it's doing?
23:43
And is it focused solely on Bitcoin
23:46
so that I know it's as secure as it can be?
23:49
All right.
23:49
So next up the stack,
23:50
what would that be?
23:51
Trezor maybe?
23:52
Yeah, Trezor, Trezor.
23:54
You know, I do like Trezor.
23:57
I think that they do a good job.
23:59
Do you know I've never used a Trezor?
24:00
Really?
24:01
I've used pretty much every hardware.
24:02
I've never used Trezor.
24:03
Yeah.
24:05
Especially now, the newer ones.
24:08
So one of the issues before is they didn't have what's known as a secure element.
24:13
So this is the key material for your wallet is in a segregated chip that's separate from the rest of the circuitry.
24:22
Ledger does have that.
24:24
Trezor for the longest time didn't, and they incorporated them into their latest devices.
24:28
So that's a step to, I think, being one of the more secure options out there.
24:36
And on top of that, they do support other coins, but they have a Bitcoin-only firmware that you can go one way and load that firmware, and then the device is now Bitcoin-only, which I think is a positive.
24:48
So I think they do great.
24:51
The tradeoff there is it has to be wired, has to be plugged in.
24:55
You don't really have a mobile option.
24:57
There are, with Android, you can plug it in, but like, who's going to bring a cord with your phone and like, yeah.
25:03
So probably, again, thinking of this as like a almost 101 type show, like why is that an issue?
25:09
There is a concept referred to as air gapping, meaning that you don't even plug your device into a phone or a computer.
25:19
I'll say it gives marginal additional security.
25:24
I mean, the main reason that I was addressing there was just preference of, hey, if you're mobile, then you might want something that you can just pair without having to plug in.
25:36
But the air gapping thing, there's a tradeoff in that when you are air gapping, it's very intentional.
25:46
So you are saying on a phone or a computer, I want to send this much Bitcoin to this address.
25:53
and then you take that information and you get it over to the device, usually with a QR code or
25:59
tapping the device or whatever. And then on the device, you look and you say,
26:04
okay, is this the same? I'm sending this much Bitcoin to that address. Is that good?
26:10
And then you approve it. You do the equivalent of signing a check type thing. And then you get that
26:18
signature back to your phone or your computer so that you can send it. And so it makes you eyeball
26:27
the transaction more carefully. And on the device itself, you must prompt it to say,
26:34
I'm doing a transaction now and I need to approve it. And you're looking at it and saying,
26:40
yes, I want to do that and then sending it over. Whereas if you plug something into a computer or a
26:46
phone, the phone or the computer for a short period of time takes a degree of control over
26:54
the device. It prompts the device to do things. And so it'll prompt the device. It'll wake it up
27:00
and say, there's a transaction happening. Just bring it up on the screen and bring the approves.
27:04
And so you're more likely to kind of gloss over what you're doing. And there's a degree of,
27:09
oh, the phone is controlling the device with my keys on it.
27:13
So it's a limited risk, I would say, realistically,
27:18
but it's one that, you know, keeps you on your toes.
27:21
Okay.
27:22
And then finally, in terms of hardware,
27:24
unless you want to talk about anything else,
27:25
I want to talk about Coldcard.
27:27
Yes.
27:27
So Coldcard, this is kind of my go-to.
27:31
And actually, I'll split this between,
27:34
because, you know, I like what CoinKite as a company does
27:37
So they create the cold card, but then they also create the tap signer, which is like a little tap card.
27:43
So similar to the bit key where you can tap.
27:45
This thing here.
27:46
Yes, exactly.
27:47
Yes.
27:47
I probably got one in my bag.
27:48
Yeah.
27:49
So tap signer is more convenience-based.
27:53
And again, it doesn't have a screen.
27:55
So there's that trade-off there that we discussed.
27:57
But like travel-wise, I think it's super convenient.
28:01
And again, you just pair it to an app on your phone.
28:04
And to approve, you put in the pin for the card and then tap the card to your phone.
28:09
So that's low cost.
28:13
I'd say low barrier to entry and pretty simplistic interacting with it.
28:20
The cold card, and I'm going to specifically refer to the Q, which it looks like a BlackBerry.
28:26
It's got a full keyboard on it and all of the things.
28:29
this thing is like
28:31
it's a beast.
28:34
It's substantial
28:36
and it does every
28:38
possible thing that you could want to do.
28:40
So for me, I'm like
28:42
I want to try everything.
28:44
And the
28:45
advanced menu and all of the features that you
28:48
can do, pretty wild. But the
28:50
long and the short of it is you have a device
28:52
that has a screen and
28:54
a keyboard and it has a
28:56
camera on the top of it.
28:58
It also does NFC, so you can tap with it as well.
29:02
You can interact with your phone or your computer.
29:08
And the draw for this one is you can audit the code so you can tell that it's doing what it's supposed to be doing.
29:15
So that checks one off the list.
29:17
It's Bitcoin only, so I'm not worried about additional software on there that could be finicky.
29:24
It's air-gapped, so you can plug it in if you want to.
29:28
But, you know, if you want to up your game, you can migrate to air gapping eventually.
29:34
Big screen, so you can like add passcodes and all these different things.
29:40
Secure element.
29:41
So it ticks a lot of boxes.
29:44
And the other thing that I really actually kind of like about Cold Card is it doesn't have an app.
29:50
so with say trezor ledger bitkey and a lot of other devices i'll throw in blocks from jade
30:00
kind of there's there's nuance there but anyways when you get roped into using an app then you're
30:07
kind of both the hardware and the software side of things are are it's a single point of failure
30:13
and so you must use that app at least you know with the trezor and the ledger to set up the device
30:20
and update it, but then you can migrate later.
30:23
With the cold card, you can set up the device,
30:26
have it ready to go without ever touching any app,
30:29
and then you decide what app you want to use with it.
30:32
And all of the apps are not created by CoinKite.
30:35
So you kind of have this default diversification
30:39
of software and hardware
30:41
so that if cold card wanted to screw you in their app,
30:46
they can't because there is no app.
30:48
So you have to have another software developer
30:50
in cahoots with CoinKite to screw you out of money,
30:55
you know, to pull the wool over your eyes.
30:57
So I think, so I love that ColdCard has a ton of features.
31:01
I think they, basically everything you can do,
31:03
they have often to do it.
31:05
But there is risk with that.
31:06
Because again, like if you have to assume for most people,
31:10
your biggest likelihood of losing your Bitcoin
31:12
is by you losing it rather than being attacked.
31:15
And they do add like complexity.
31:16
So do you think most people should stay away from that advanced settings menu?
31:20
Most people won't ever really use it.
31:24
The average person, if they're using a cold card, their interaction will be set up the device, which entails like setting up a pin and creating a new wallet and writing down your words, your backup words.
31:40
And then other than that, it'll be picking an app and pairing the device to the app.
31:46
When you're doing transactions, it'll be, I want to send this here, and then just interact with a cold card.
31:56
Yes, I approve, back and forth.
31:59
You're likely not going to be diving into the advanced stuff.
32:03
And usually if I'm teaching somebody how to use a cold card, I'm saying, we're only focusing on what you need to know.
32:10
The rest of this is at your disposal as you begin to learn more and you get curious.
32:16
It's just kind of there.
32:17
And there'll be features down the line that oftentimes people will go, oh, I didn't even know this was a thing.
32:23
This is super useful.
32:25
So I do think that the average person can get it as long as they focus on just what they need to do, especially like for a very beginner, just plug the damn thing into your computer.
32:38
100%.
32:38
You don't want to be creating your own entropy with like three dice rolls and then be like, why is my Bitcoin not here?
32:42
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
32:43
So like you got to meet the person where they are.
32:48
And if somebody is in a place where they're like, this is really cool.
32:53
I want to, you know, maybe they're migrating from another device and they're saying like, I'm going to up my game now.
32:59
Then you start them off simple and then you say, OK, here's the breadcrumbs of where maybe we'll go after this.
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35:59
wallet software what like i like i think wasabi is great i think i think sparrow is great what else do you recommend people use So I really my default on desktop is Sparrow And to be honest even when I teaching somebody relatively new
36:14
I will show them Sparrow.
36:15
And I know that looks scary,
36:17
but I explain it in a way where, again,
36:21
I just try to pull people's focus.
36:23
Like you don't need to know,
36:25
yes, there's other buttons there.
36:26
Don't touch the buttons.
36:27
Just touch the blue button.
36:29
That's telling you where to go.
36:30
So I'll start really basic with that.
36:34
But then on mobile,
36:37
I think probably one of the most versatile mobile wallets
36:40
for hardcore security is probably Nunchuck.
36:44
I use that all the time for travel,
36:48
for inheritance, for a whole bunch of stuff.
36:50
I quite like them as it pertains to with hardware.
36:54
Yeah, I've not used Nunchuck in a long time,
36:56
but I think Sparrow is great.
36:58
I use Sparrow all the time.
36:59
I do like Wasabi.
36:59
I think their UX is really nice.
37:01
It is.
37:02
And again, like it can be an advanced wallet,
37:04
but you can like hide a lot of features
37:06
and just do things relatively simply.
37:07
Yeah, you absolutely can.
37:09
And actually it's, you know,
37:10
it's definitely a good option.
37:11
I've got a setup where I'm utilizing Wasabi,
37:15
but then I'm also utilizing Sprite.
37:18
I have this whole thing that I do.
37:20
You're a nerd, we get it.
37:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:22
So.
37:23
And then when it comes to things like multi-sig,
37:25
I, so I hear Odell talk about this a lot
37:27
And I strongly agree with him in the sense that I think for a lot of people, it's just added complexity that you don't necessarily need.
37:35
Like for you and I, people know we're Bitcoiners.
37:38
Like there's some risk with that.
37:40
And like having geographically dispersed keys, like that makes total sense.
37:43
But if you're just like a Bitcoiner, like people don't necessarily know you have a lot of Bitcoin or maybe like I think single sig is totally fine and maybe the best option for a lot of people.
37:53
Yeah, if you're just somebody, you know, you haven't really advertised the fact that you own Bitcoin, I'd say if you haven't been in a major data leak of who owns Bitcoin, then single SIG is also probably okay.
38:11
I can't say that applies to me.
38:12
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:15
I mean.
38:16
Before the scammers come after me, I've moved address and changed my phone number.
38:19
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
38:20
So you're right.
38:22
Like if you're public about Bitcoin, I'd say multi-sig is damn near a necessity, right?
38:29
Like just full disclosure, I'm using multi-sig.
38:33
You're not going to be able to kick in my door and just get like all the keys.
38:37
Me too, unless you want to take a 24-hour flight with me.
38:39
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
38:40
Like it's a lot of these things are smash and grab jobs and they just want to be in and out.
38:46
But yeah, for your average person, the most important thing is just a little bit of redundancy. So there's no like single point of failure. So like you don't want to have your hardware wallet and the backup seed phrase on paper stored in the same place because then one fire or flood and everything's gone.
39:07
So if you can have your device and then maybe have your seed words,
39:12
ideally like stamped in a steel plate or something.
39:15
And then fire and flood matters far less.
39:17
Yeah, exactly.
39:18
So even then, if fire and flood, those two things in the same place,
39:22
if it's steel, then at least you've got that.
39:25
If you separate them even better,
39:28
the only additional thing to consider would be with the 12 or 24 words,
39:36
with your backup to the naked eye.
39:39
If somebody comes across those
39:41
and they know what they are,
39:42
they have access to your money.
39:44
So the one other thing you may want to consider
39:46
would be a passphrase.
39:49
I just wrote down BIP39.
39:51
Yeah, exactly.
39:52
Yeah.
39:52
So basically this is,
39:54
you have your 12 word backup
39:56
and you add the equivalent
39:58
of what's like a 13th word,
40:00
but it can be anything,
40:01
letters, numbers, symbols.
40:03
That's where it gets tricky.
40:04
is whatever you type in, in combination with your backup, is a new wallet.
40:12
There is no wrong answer because all of them create wallets.
40:16
So if I type apples as my passphrase, and it's all lowercase,
40:25
and then I go back and I go to log into the wallet and I type apples with an uppercase A,
40:30
that is a new wallet.
40:32
That is a separate wallet.
40:33
and if I've never used it before, it will show a zero balance, even if I had Bitcoin sitting on the lowercase apples one.
40:40
So you need to be very, very clear in writing out that passphrase as is,
40:47
so that if anything happens to you or if you just forget, you can see what it is very clearly.
40:53
And that might sound scary to people who are new, but that is the power of Bitcoin.
40:56
And that's why before anyone brute forces your wallet, it will be the end of the universe.
41:00
Yes. Yeah, exactly.
41:01
Like it's the main goal with adding a passphrase
41:05
is just to put a wall between somebody
41:07
finding your seed phrase
41:09
and being able to actually access your money.
41:12
And so you would store those separately.
41:14
You wouldn't have your seed phrase here.
41:17
Here's the passphrase to my wallet sitting beside it.
41:19
You would have seed phrase here,
41:21
passphrase at your mom's house or wherever.
41:25
And it's also important that I think people
41:28
don't just try and remember the passphrase.
41:30
No.
41:30
Because you think you can remember stuff,
41:32
but give it five, 10 years, good luck.
41:35
Yeah, not only that,
41:36
but you think you can remember stuff.
41:39
And even if you do, if something happens to you,
41:41
is your family member going to remember
41:43
the time you told them your passphrase?
41:45
I don't think so.
41:45
Exactly.
41:46
And so if I was new to Bitcoin,
41:50
coming to you and being like,
41:51
I want to take this seriously, do things properly,
41:53
what else do you think I need to know?
41:55
So, I mean, those are the core three.
41:58
Where are you going to get Bitcoin?
41:59
learn a little bit with a hot wallet
42:01
figure out what hardware
42:03
works best for you and hone
42:05
in on those three
42:06
the most
42:09
important thing I'd say
42:11
beyond your own personal security
42:13
is kind of what we just alluded to
42:15
which is if something
42:17
happened to you this
42:19
second would your family
42:21
be able to access your Bitcoin
42:22
and for a lot of Bitcoiners
42:24
they start going
42:26
that's an awful question
42:28
Yeah. And so if you're watching this going, then you need to get your shit together now because you don't know if you're going to be listening to this podcast and get hit by a bus crossing the street. Look both ways.
42:44
But at the very least, you need to write out some clear instructions to your family members saying, I have this device.
42:57
It has a pin.
42:59
The pin is the device is stored wherever.
43:04
If it's more complex than that, it has a passphrase, which is da-da-da.
43:09
And then the other thing I would recommend is if you have a Bitcoin or friend that you deeply trust or family member that you deeply trust, put their contact info on that same sheet.
43:23
You know, if you have Bitcoin or circle of friends, which we're very lucky to have, just having that and somebody that you deeply trust be able to be like, okay, we know you guys are panicked. Let's look at the sheet. We can at least walk you through what to do so you have access.
43:45
I think that's super important
43:48
because your family in that moment
43:50
like yeah they may be able to get through
43:52
your instructions but
43:53
it's a lot nicer if you have
43:56
somebody that can be there
43:58
totally and then like for full
44:00
transparency on some of this like
44:02
I had a really poor inheritance setup
44:04
it was basically like a treasure
44:06
hunt of different bits of information all over
44:08
the place and never tested
44:10
like I never was like to my wife or whoever
44:12
like can you actually do this
44:13
And so one of the things I did was move some Bitcoin to Casa and use their inheritance.
44:21
Are there any inheritance products that you think are really worthwhile looking into?
44:25
Yeah.
44:26
Yeah.
44:26
So there's a variety of options out there.
44:31
So obviously you have things like Casa, you have Unchained, you have these options that, again, it's a multi-sig setup.
44:41
So you've got multiple devices.
44:42
Yeah, Anchor Watch.
44:44
Shout out to sponsors.
44:45
I'm actually really stoked on what Anchor Watch is working on.
44:49
They have some incredible solutions,
44:51
and the insurance part of it is really nice.
44:54
It's like the product that I think Bitcoin has been dying for
44:58
for a number of years.
44:59
Yes.
44:59
There's obviously some limitations in it
45:01
in terms of how much Bitcoin you have to have to be able to use it.
45:04
But if you have a decent amount of money
45:06
and you want to store Bitcoin in a way
45:08
that you can kind of just set it and forget it,
45:10
it is probably the best option out there.
45:11
Yeah, exactly. So I mean, yeah, what they've done and what they've put together is, I mean, all Bitcoiners owe them a debt of gratitude for the hard work that they've done to accomplish that. So hats off to Anchor Watch.
45:27
Uh, the other, and then I, again, on the, on the subject of nunchuck, um, you know, they, they also for the, the cypher punks out there that are like, I don't want to give up any personal information.
45:41
Nobody needs it.
45:43
Nunchuck has a wicked setup too.
45:45
That is pretty automated.
45:46
The, the long and the short of it is you give a family member three English words and a password, like a bit of a long passphrase.
45:57
Uh, and you just say, this is for you. Keep this safe. Multiple copies. If you want, nobody can do anything with those copies. Um, just keep them, keep a few of these, uh, at, you know, whatever threshold you set, like a rolling threshold every year, every, you know, couple of years or something like that.
46:19
But the idea is you keep on resetting the threshold of when the inheritance will trigger.
46:23
When it does, they get an email.
46:26
It's time to receive your inheritance.
46:31
They handhold through like download the app.
46:34
Okay, now put in your three words.
46:35
This identifies the account for them of which one they're supposed to claim.
46:39
Put in this passphrase.
46:42
And then they have access to the money.
46:44
You can also force hold your inheritors at that point.
46:47
You can be like, you've got to wait 10 years to get this.
46:48
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. You can do all kinds of fun things with it. So it's, you know, there's a whole bunch of like technical stuff in the background of how that works and what's going on there. But the long and the short of it is your family needs three words and a password. And then they will get an email and access the money.
47:05
And the only sort of caveat there is you have to assume these companies still exist at that point.
47:10
You can have a secondary.
47:13
If I die in this calendar year and Nunchuck goes tits up and they don't have any sort of a offboarding after X amount of time,
47:27
then you can still access the funds by using these devices that I've left here with a file.
47:33
you know and so it's it's it would be a pain in the butt but it would be possible and recoverable
47:39
yeah i think same with casa um so i think the other thing that people need to understand
47:43
you know if you're thinking of setting this up today is that let's just say for easy numbers
47:48
you've got 10 grand of bitcoin yeah you're not securing ten thousand dollars you're securing
47:52
what that might be in the future and and we all think bitcoin's going to a million dollars plus
47:57
I don't know the timeframe, but give it 10 years, I've no doubt.
48:01
So how seriously do you think people have to take that?
48:05
I think it's pretty important.
48:08
And it's not just important for you to get it set up,
48:10
but it's important for you to start informing your next of kin
48:14
roughly what happens when it's their time to claim that.
48:19
I sit with my wife once a year and review what Bitcoin we have and where.
48:26
I should do that.
48:27
Yeah, that's a good idea.
48:30
A nice date night.
48:31
Yeah, I know.
48:32
Yeah, well, I mean,
48:34
my wife was always very accommodative
48:38
and tolerant.
48:41
And then she began to be more upbeat
48:44
and excited about things
48:45
when our lives markedly improved.
48:47
So she's more than willing to sit down,
48:50
you know, once a year to just make sure.
48:52
She's just waiting for the day
48:53
you get hit by the bus, Ben.
48:54
Thanks for explaining all that. Now turn around, look over there for a second, whack with a shovel. Yeah, no. Yeah, I think it's important. Even I know some people will be met with a family member that's very resistant, but it's just important to impart on them like, hey, there's been people in the past that have had the equivalent of a hundred bucks that they threw away that ended up being millions of dollars.
49:24
later. So like you need to, you need to treat this seriously. And like, even if it seems like it,
49:30
you know, not a super significant amount right now, uh, it could be, and you need to be prepared
49:36
for that. So just having like a little sit down and, and for the love of God, when you sit down
49:42
with your family, it can't be like you said, a treasure hunt. Yeah. You need to go to the third
49:49
tree into the forest and then dig a hole. And when did you get access to my treasure?
49:53
I think this is a bit more almost like philosophical, but I think there is an important thing as well.
50:00
Like assuming we both live long, happy lives.
50:03
I've got a young kid.
50:04
I know you've got kids.
50:06
It's also like passing down the values that people like the importance of Bitcoin to your kids.
50:11
Like Bitcoins have a lot of kids.
50:13
We need to make sure we like keep this thing going.
50:15
Yeah.
50:15
Yeah.
50:15
A hundred percent.
50:17
I've had a number of proud dad moments with especially like my daughter's eight now.
50:22
So she's definitely picking up on things. She's got her own little Bitcoin wallet.
50:27
Love that.
50:28
We've got a local Bitcoin market at home and she goes there. She knows how to buy things and pull up the wallet.
50:35
We also actually, for her, she gets her allowance every week and we split it between cash and Bitcoin.
50:43
So half of it always goes into savings, which is her Bitcoin. And then the other half is cash.
50:48
And the thinking there is down the line, she's going to be looking at her Bitcoin wallet going, oh my God, this is so much money now, just from my allowance over however many years. And then we'll say, yeah, and you could have twice as much, but you took it in cash.
51:07
and the cash obviously didn't appreciate.
51:11
So it'll be that moment of like,
51:14
oh, wow, if I save, look what happens.
51:18
And it goes up in value.
51:20
And so she's learning.
51:21
We also actually set up like a hobby miner
51:24
in the basement.
51:25
That's cool.
51:26
And it mines directly to her wallet.
51:28
So she sees like 60 cents worth of sats
51:31
going into her wallet every single day.
51:33
Love that.
51:33
She gets excited about it.
51:34
We're not at the allowance part yet.
51:36
She's too young, but she's been stacking Bitcoin since the day she was born.
51:40
She just doesn't know it yet.
51:41
But I think one of the really interesting dynamics that with people as young kids,
51:48
we're going to have to kind of deal with is the fact that by the time they're 18 or 20 or whenever,
51:54
they might be going into a world where no one works.
51:58
It might be all...
52:00
AI might have taken basically every job by that point.
52:02
And it's like the hardest thing in the world
52:06
to predict the future that they're going to live in.
52:08
I don't think there's ever been a time in history
52:10
where it's been harder.
52:11
But the one thing you can be sure of
52:12
is that Bitcoin's going to be there.
52:14
Yeah.
52:15
And this, I mean, it's interesting,
52:18
it's exciting, and it's terrifying all at the same time.
52:21
Because, I mean, in a world
52:23
where wealth wasn't siphoned off by an elite few,
52:30
taking away purchasing power and allocating it
52:32
where they see fit, the pie likely would have been a lot more evenly dispersed and people would have
52:40
been more able to kind of save for their future. But now you're in a situation where most people
52:47
are, they're never going to own a home. They can't put anything away for savings. And pretty soon
52:53
their jobs are not going to exist at all and they have no assets. And in a world where
53:02
productivity goes way, way up because it's just machines and correspondingly asset values are
53:13
probably going to continue to explode. And the cost of human labor is going to go to zero because
53:20
nobody's going to want it.
53:21
What do you do?
53:23
Like, how do you do anything?
53:26
There's so many dystopian outcomes
53:28
that could, like, again,
53:29
impossible to predict.
53:30
But if you're going to put
53:31
like a percentage on it,
53:32
it's going to be dystopian.
53:34
Like, there's going to be likely
53:35
a ton of UBI, people not working,
53:37
ready player one type,
53:39
live in your house
53:39
and just go online all day.
53:41
And this is why it's important.
53:43
Like, if you have kids,
53:44
stack that for your kids.
53:45
You can do that UBI now with Bitcoin.
53:47
I mean, the UBI, that's going to be the-
53:51
I'm convinced it's happening.
53:52
That's going to be the government's first response to-
53:55
What else can they do, though?
53:57
Ideologically, I don't agree with it,
53:59
but I can't see how to do anything else.
54:00
There's nothing else.
54:01
There is nothing else that, you know, if-
54:06
You know we been through Society has been through things before where entire industries have been replaced and people move to different industries But when almost everything disappears
54:21
like what do you, again,
54:23
when you combine AI and robotics
54:25
and manual labor goes away,
54:28
I don't, I don't know.
54:31
Yeah.
54:32
If you're a plumber,
54:32
you might have five, 10 years,
54:34
but eventually it's coming for everything.
54:36
I did a show with Roman Jampolski yesterday.
54:39
I think it was yesterday.
54:41
And he thinks that like AI replaces all jobs
54:45
within a decade.
54:47
Oh my God.
54:48
And I mean, he also thinks it's going to kill us all.
54:51
So if it does, this won't be a huge problem.
54:52
But assuming that doesn't happen,
54:54
like the world is going to be wildly different.
54:57
There's very few things that you can put total faith in,
55:00
even existing in 10 years.
55:01
But the thing that I think you can do that with is Bitcoin.
55:04
Yeah.
55:04
Yeah.
55:05
Yeah.
55:05
I mean, you're going to need – it's tough, man, because if the government first response to all like a complete destruction of jobs is UBI and they're trying to pay in their funny money that they're creating from nothing, who do you think is going to get the finger pointed at them first for the reason it's not working?
55:31
The people with the money that can't be printed, right?
55:35
you're the reason that UBI and it's going to be Nixon currency speculators all over again, right?
55:43
You think they come for Bitcoiners?
55:46
I mean, if everybody's out in the street and there's a subset of people that are all doing quite well,
55:54
I mean, there's already like, you know, everybody already villainizes the rich.
56:00
And again, right now, it can be misplaced because you can be rich and very productive and a net positive to society, or you can be rich because you're a leech.
56:13
And people in positions of power in government where they're close to the money spigot, those are the leeches, but there's no differentiation for the average citizen.
56:24
They just see, are you doing better than me?
56:26
You're part of the problem.
56:28
So even though as Bitcoiners,
56:29
we're definitely not leeches,
56:31
you still think we'll be seen as part of the problem?
56:33
Yeah, because, I mean,
56:34
what are the politicians going to do?
56:36
The people that are actually in those positions,
56:39
they want to keep those positions.
56:40
They need a scapegoat.
56:42
Look how well those Bitcoiners are doing.
56:44
That's a scary world.
56:45
I wish I'd never used my name or face.
56:47
I know.
56:48
I mean, you think you're bad.
56:50
I've got this thing in my head.
56:51
I'm very identifiable.
56:53
You're spoiling for a mile off.
56:53
Yeah, I'm going to be taking your haircut pretty soon
56:56
just to blend into the crowd and ghost.
56:59
I don't know how to tell you this.
57:00
This isn't a choice.
57:03
Is it worse that this was a choice?
57:06
Absolutely.
57:06
Yeah.
57:08
So we've gone through a ton of stuff there
57:10
of how to get started,
57:11
how to go from sort of one to a hundred.
57:13
I think an important thing is that
57:14
this is like a journey.
57:17
What you pick today
57:17
doesn't have to be what you pick in the future.
57:19
Like getting started is the important thing.
57:21
Yeah, of course, of course.
57:23
And there's kind of going to be
57:25
like a choose your own adventure aspect to this.
57:29
But just know that just because you've,
57:34
there's not gonna be a hideously wrong answer, right?
57:39
If you go to take self-custody,
57:41
and I've just been saying,
57:42
I'm not a big fan of ledger,
57:44
and you go get a ledger,
57:46
realistically, you're still way better off
57:49
than sitting on an exchange.
57:52
If you go to use some hardware,
57:54
it's going to be better
57:57
than relying on a custodian.
58:01
It's just that you don't overcomplicate it
58:04
and you don't lock yourself out of the Bitcoin.
58:06
That's all.
58:07
Yeah, 100%.
58:08
Okay, before we close out,
58:09
I want to talk to you a little bit
58:10
about what's going on up in Canada.
58:12
Because you said before you have a...
58:14
I mean, we don't need to talk politics.
58:16
I saw you wince then.
58:17
No, no, it's good.
58:18
But you were saying that your daughter
58:20
goes to a Bitcoin market.
58:22
Yes.
58:22
Do you have a little circular economy
58:23
building up there?
58:24
Yeah. Yeah. I think this is super important. You know, obviously Bitcoin's an incredible savings technology, but at the end of the day, in a nightmare scenario, like we just discussed, scapegoat Bitcoiners, you know, let's outlaw Bitcoin. You can't hold it anymore. Confiscation, illegal to spend it, kind of, you know, on ramps and off ramps, turn, you know, shut down.
58:47
what happens if you're the Bitcoiner that's a recluse that has never met another Bitcoiner in
58:55
person and you've got this asset that's technically quite valuable even still, but in your jurisdiction
59:02
you're not allowed to use it. How do you actually utilize that at home if there's no on and off ramp,
59:13
if there's no merchants that you know of.
59:17
And I think building a local Bitcoin community
59:20
and circular economy is a very valid and important goal
59:25
that a lot of people should have.
59:27
So yeah, we started a local market in my city, Calgary.
59:34
And at this point, we've got total merchants, I'm not sure.
59:39
But every time we have a market,
59:40
it's somewhere between 40 and 50 merchants that are there.
59:43
All accepting Bitcoin.
59:44
Yeah, every single one.
59:46
It's only Bitcoin at the market.
59:48
And so all of these merchants,
59:51
and we've really pushed to try and get people that,
59:55
yes, there's obviously artists
59:56
and people with Bitcoin merchants,
59:58
stuff like that, which is awesome.
1:00:00
But we also wanted to make sure
1:00:02
there was always stuff that you legitimately need.
1:00:05
You want a butcher and a baker
1:00:06
and all this kind of stuff.
1:00:07
And we have all that stuff.
1:00:08
We have local farmers that bring eggs and beef and jerky
1:00:12
and all this different stuff. We have, you know, personal trainers. We have tradesmen. We have
1:00:18
a plumber. We have somebody who does flooring, electricians, all of these different things.
1:00:23
We have health professionals. We have my barber. We have a whole bunch of different things so that,
1:00:30
you know, and it's not just at the market that we transact. What I'm really trying to push is that
1:00:36
we create a society within a society. So it's like, you know, the secret handshake,
1:00:42
you know who to go to, to get, to get your beef for Bitcoin. And, um, I think that's,
1:00:49
it, it creates not only kind of this natural circular, you never need to exit Bitcoin again,
1:00:58
kind of mentality, but it also gets back to a day where you knew your butcher,
1:01:04
where you knew the people that you dealt with
1:01:06
and it wasn't just like a faceless company
1:01:07
because you see each other.
1:01:08
You have a bond.
1:01:11
And so, yeah, we've been doing this for,
1:01:13
I'm going to say a couple years now.
1:01:16
And we do it a few times a year.
1:01:18
But then I always put a challenge to the participants,
1:01:22
like find three other merchants here
1:01:24
that what they have you really need
1:01:27
and you really value what they do.
1:01:29
You think they do good work.
1:01:30
And I want you to transact with each one of them
1:01:32
at least once before the next market happens
1:01:36
so that there's this, again,
1:01:39
underlying community within a community.
1:01:42
And then if shit did hit the fan like that-
1:01:44
You have your crew.
1:01:45
Yeah, you're self-sufficient.
1:01:48
You can get most of what you need with Bitcoin.
1:01:49
I think the cool thing from the merchant side as well
1:01:51
is like, let's say you're a farmer.
1:01:54
Bitcoin, like they just get gouged consistently
1:01:57
from the supermarkets and places like that,
1:01:58
which always leads to degradation of quality.
1:02:01
and we know that like
1:02:03
Bitcoiners values
1:02:04
will pay more
1:02:06
to have better quality goods.
1:02:07
Yes.
1:02:08
And so like there is an incentive there
1:02:09
where they can make more money,
1:02:11
provide better quality stuff
1:02:12
and not have to deal with like
1:02:14
supermarkets and places like that.
1:02:16
Yeah.
1:02:17
There's this guy
1:02:17
and he always brings this jerky.
1:02:21
And so I don't know if you've ever
1:02:22
had the bull Bitcoin crew
1:02:24
is always bringing around.
1:02:25
They've got like branded bull Bitcoin jerky.
1:02:29
Anyways,
1:02:29
Albertan dude,
1:02:31
Uh, it's the best jerky I've ever tasted in my entire life. He comes to the sat market and he cleans up. He's sold out within two hours. And, uh, he's like, this is super worth it for me. Every time he drives hours and hours to get there every time. And he will never miss a market. Cause he's just, yeah. But it's like, the quality is just amazing. And, and you're right. Like when you're spending sats, there's this inclination.
1:02:59
Everybody says, oh, don't spend your Bitcoin. No, I think you, you, you can, even if you're
1:03:05
earning dollars, you can still kind of have like remain even spend and replace. And in doing so
1:03:12
only buy things that are worth the money, the type of money that you're spending. And what you're
1:03:19
doing is you're rewarding people that are creating quality products and you're spending quality
1:03:28
money with them. And you want the people in your community not to be creating trash.
1:03:34
You want to have good quality stuff. And again, in a world where shit hits the fan,
1:03:40
most of the products and services are going to be total garbage. So you need to surround
1:03:44
yourself with better people. But the don't spend your Bitcoin narrative is nonsense.
1:03:47
Any dollar you spend could be Bitcoin. So whether you're spending Bitcoin or you're spending dollars
1:03:51
or pounds or euros or whatever, you're doing the same thing. There's an opportunity cost to
1:03:54
everything. Like if you're a hundred percent Bitcoin, what are you going to spend? You've
1:03:58
only got Bitcoin. And so like, you know what you should get on, get on zero. Yeah, this is exactly
1:04:04
it. And this is how, I mean, I've been living on Bitcoin since, uh, since 2020. Zero dollars in
1:04:10
the bank account. I, the only dollars in the bank account are stuff that has to come out of a bank
1:04:14
account. So I get paid in Bitcoin, 95% of my income is Bitcoin and whatever comes in, I know
1:04:23
what bills have to come out. So I just convert that as soon as the invoices come in, plunk that
1:04:28
in the bank. And then I have bare minimum dollars just for that purpose. My wife, while I'm down
1:04:35
here, she's like, can you send me a bank transfer for $300? I was like, I cannot because otherwise
1:04:42
we won't be paying our car payment. But I'm like, I can send you Bitcoin and then you can
1:04:47
convert it. And she's like, okay. See, on a business level, I do have dollars in the bank
1:04:52
account. I need to get better at that. But on a personal level, I have like a little bit, but
1:04:58
almost like close to zero. And I just spend everything on a credit card throughout the month.
1:05:03
And then as soon as I get paid, pay that off. Everything else is just Bitcoin. And I've been
1:05:08
doing that for a few years now. And like there's times when it sucks and there's times when it's
1:05:11
great, but the times when it's great, definitely outweigh it. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Like it's
1:05:15
just, if you can, again, there's a very simple equation that, I mean, for the time being until
1:05:24
AI takes over, will do very well for a lot of people. Create value for others, spend less than
1:05:29
you earn, and save in a money that nobody else can print, you're going to be pretty well off.
1:05:35
Yeah. And if you're already in that money, then you don't even have to do an extra step in between.
1:05:40
So how do you start a Bitcoin circular economy, Bitcoin market?
1:05:45
Because I live in Brisbane.
1:05:46
We have a meetup every month.
1:05:47
I'm never there for it because it happens to fall.
1:05:49
It seems to be always when I travel.
1:05:51
But when I do go, it's good.
1:05:52
There's a lot of people there.
1:05:53
And I think if you try to set something up, you could probably get it started.
1:05:57
But how did you get it to the point where you have like 50 merchants or whatever it is?
1:06:00
So I started going to the meetup and requesting to take five minutes at the beginning of each meetup
1:06:10
and just say, hey, I'm looking for the following thing
1:06:14
that somebody would accept Bitcoin for.
1:06:17
I'm looking for a plumber.
1:06:18
I'm looking for whatever.
1:06:20
And oftentimes, either it would be somebody in the room does that thing
1:06:26
or it would be somebody in the room knows somebody who does that thing.
1:06:30
So then they go to that friend who very possibly not a Bitcoiner,
1:06:35
but they plant that seed.
1:06:36
hey somebody's asking you know if if there's a plumber that would accept bitcoin you know would
1:06:41
you ever do that maybe they say no but like curiosity is peaked and then so i i started
1:06:47
doing that and and then i also started encouraging people at the meetup to get up and you know like
1:06:53
we all know this is better money we all earn dollars then buy bitcoin with the dollars
1:06:57
what if you can on occasion why not cut out that step when somebody pays you in bitcoin so i started
1:07:02
encouraging people to stand up and be like, oh, I actually do this. And I'd be happy to accept
1:07:09
Bitcoin for it. And not just once, like every, hey, as a reminder, so-and-so does this,
1:07:15
there's our plumber, there's the flooring guy, there's the personal trainer. If anybody needs
1:07:20
any of this stuff, they all accept Bitcoin. So hit them up. I started doing that a bit more regularly.
1:07:26
And then it was kind of end of the year, one year, and I saw something, people were whining about
1:07:32
regulations on like choke point 2.0 style clamp down on what you could do with exchanges and
1:07:39
thing. And everybody is whining about it and bitching about it and kind of shooting the
1:07:42
messenger. The one exchange that came out and said like, Hey guys, just so you know,
1:07:45
you can't do this before you go on or off or exchange. It was coin join or something.
1:07:50
Everybody's trying to shoot the messenger. I was like, guys, you get like, well, do something
1:07:54
about it. And for me, the thing that you do is you don't require the on and off ramps to get your
1:08:00
Bitcoin or use your Bitcoin. And that's the way that it becomes completely unshakable. Yeah,
1:08:06
somebody could shut down the exchange that I need to use to get dollars or get Bitcoin.
1:08:11
But if somebody could tell me I can't go to my friend Frank and get eggs and pay him in sats,
1:08:17
good luck. Just demand to be paid in Bitcoin. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so we did that a
1:08:23
little bit, but right around that time where I saw that story, I don't know why it just really
1:08:28
riled me up. So I reached out, went to the meetup. I was like, we're doing this. We're doing it in
1:08:33
four weeks. And we put together a market. We had 30 merchants at our first market. And with four
1:08:39
weeks prep time, we found a venue. We went and we just kind of hodgepodge it together. And yeah,
1:08:46
the most challenging part is getting people to stay in contact and keep interacting in between
1:08:52
markets. But it becomes like a fun social event. People super keen just to get together, not even
1:08:59
to have to listen to talks or anything, but just to interact. And everybody's so like-minded and
1:09:03
just happy to come together. It's been great. We've got another one coming up in December and we try
1:09:09
to pair other things with it. So we'll have the market. And then the day after we all drive up to
1:09:14
the mountains and stay in Banff for a weekend. I can't do December. When is the next one after?
1:09:19
I'm coming. That'll be in Calgary last week of June. No skiing then. Yeah, but we're still going
1:09:27
to go to the mountains. I'm coming when it's snowy. Well, you should come in the summer too.
1:09:33
The hiking's amazing. So we're going to go up and there's hot springs and there's a whole bunch of
1:09:37
stuff. We'll do a hike. Last time we went, we did a workshop. We did like a Bitcoin workshop out in
1:09:44
the mountains. And then before the workshop started, we hiked up a mountain and back down.
1:09:48
I was in Banff.
1:09:49
Like, when would it have been?
1:09:51
21, maybe.
1:09:52
Yeah.
1:09:53
It would have been that winter.
1:09:54
So either 21 or 22.
1:09:55
Yeah.
1:09:56
Stayed at that hotel.
1:09:57
It's like Hogwarts.
1:09:59
Oh, yeah.
1:09:59
In the Banff Springs.
1:10:00
It was incredible.
1:10:01
Yeah.
1:10:02
That place is amazing.
1:10:02
We went up to Lake Louise.
1:10:03
It was very cool.
1:10:04
Next time you do one in winter,
1:10:06
I'm coming in.
1:10:06
We can go snowboarding.
1:10:07
Next time you come,
1:10:09
come stay in the Bitcoin Hotel.
1:10:12
Is there a Bitcoin Hotel?
1:10:13
There's a hotel.
1:10:14
They accept Bitcoin.
1:10:15
They're a part of the market.
1:10:16
If you go into the lobby, you'll find a little bookshelf and it has like Bitcoin standard,
1:10:22
a bunch of other like awesome, and even like tangential, like the fourth turning and the
1:10:27
sovereign individual all on this little bookshelf as you enter.
1:10:30
Does it look like Hogwarts though?
1:10:31
Because that place was incredible.
1:10:32
It doesn't, but it's got awesome steam rooms and a cold plunge and a nice pool.
1:10:39
Sold.
1:10:40
And it's, they just renovated.
1:10:42
It's called the Kenrick, but this guy, Jeff, owns it,
1:10:45
and he's an awesome Bitcoin.
1:10:46
He's super keen, and he gives discounts for Bitcoin.
1:10:49
Okay, sold.
1:10:51
Challenge accepted.
1:10:52
The next meetup I'll be in in Brisbane is in November.
1:10:55
So first Thursday of November,
1:10:56
if you live anywhere near Brisbane, come and let's set this up.
1:10:59
Hell yeah.
1:11:00
Sessions, this has been amazing.
1:11:01
Dude, thank you.
1:11:02
Appreciate it.
1:11:03
Anywhere you want to send anyone,
1:11:04
where do they find your nine-and-a-half-year-old YouTube channel?
1:11:06
Yes, yes.
1:11:07
So yeah, you can find me, BTC Sessions, on YouTube.
1:11:09
But if you're a person that's maybe coming in, you're relatively new and you just want a well curated kind of like, what do I do next type thing?
1:11:18
I set up a learn page that I've just kind of hand selected some very specific videos that you can just go through.
1:11:26
If you can get through that page, you're going to have more skills than most Bitcoiners.
1:11:30
It's just btcsessions.ca, Canadian slash learn.
1:11:35
and if you go there,
1:11:37
it's going to have exchange,
1:11:38
hot wallet, cold wallet
1:11:39
and then some additional advanced skills
1:11:42
if you want to level up beyond that.
1:11:44
Perfect.
1:11:44
Thank you, man.
1:11:45
I know you're on your fitness regime
1:11:47
and I made you drink beer, but...
1:11:48
I mean, you know,
1:11:49
I take low breaks here and there.
1:11:51
It's beefsteak tonight.
1:11:52
You got to have a couple of beers.
1:11:53
Yeah, exactly.
1:11:53
A few steaks will offset the beer.
1:11:55
All right.
1:11:56
Thank you, man.
1:11:56
This has been great.
1:11:57
Cheers.
1:11:57
Cheers.
1:12:05
Thank you.